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haljackey
Jan 24, 2011, 10:10 PM
Problem is this city classifies BRT as RT because it has "RT" in there.

No one likes BRT. It might be much cheaper than LRT but the fact is it's just bus service. Sure, there might be some more buses and maybe a bus lane/turn signal here and there, but it's just bus service.

Jump that hurdle and let's invest in LRT from the get-go. The future will thank you.

Pimpmasterdac
Jan 25, 2011, 12:55 AM
As much as LRT seems to be the better in the long run, I don't see it coming to fruition. LTC has had to suspend the opening a satellite terminal and are already talking about reducing bus frequency with the city budget coming down.

A problem North-South route would be the downtown core, which already is congested with too much traffic. Rather than an LRT reducing congestion by getting people off buses, which seems to be the premise of LRT, it would only add another element to congestion cars, buses and LRT. People will still need to take buses to get into the core, and asside from having no buses on LRT roads, will add more to the congestion.

As well extending it up Richmond between Oxford to Windemere are serious space constrains that would de facto make Richmond a 2-lane road. Richmond is already hellish to drive along this area, due to few/no turning lanes and the amount of traffic on the road. The other option of expropriation of property along Richmond I sure would be ferociously opposed.

An East-West route would be slightly more feasible, but again this would suggest turning a major artery into a 2-lane + turning road. Oxford is already overcapacity and can't afford to take lanes off. Having a bus that got to major intersections quickly would be more effective to getting people, including myself, to consider taking public transit.

As much as people here seem to hate BRT, I think its a better and cheaper solution in the short term. If the buses are express, stopping only at major intersections/malls, it would certainty help make transit more viable. The major reason I don't ride the bus is that there's a million stops that turn what should be a short ride into an hour long marathon.

haljackey
Jan 25, 2011, 11:52 PM
New map: proposed BRT routes in London.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7569/clipboard02sdg.jpg

MolsonExport
Jan 26, 2011, 4:19 AM
rapid? Western Road? Oxfart? surely you jest.

Highinthesky
Jan 26, 2011, 8:56 PM
MOPEs haha great another term to throw in with all the other ones.

I don't know why anyone would be shocked that advertising on public transit in a city like London would be targeting people from that group, how likely is that member of that group make up a large percentage of daily rider? I'd bet not very many.

MolsonExport
Jan 26, 2011, 9:29 PM
That map left out the Oxbury mall. How could you forget the Oxbury Mall?

Wharn
Jan 26, 2011, 10:08 PM
Agreed that is exactly what we need, there is no reason for something like the second picture.

God I hope an LRT somehow get approved...not holding my breathe though.

Wait, you're hoping the most glacial and indecisive city council in North America is going to approve something worthwhile?

MrSlippery519
Jan 27, 2011, 2:30 PM
Wait, you're hoping the most glacial and indecisive city council in North America is going to approve something worthwhile?

Haha one can hope...you are right thought the chances of it happening in our lifetime are likely about 1%.

I also feel a BRT would be pointless in London, especially how some of the proposed drawings look.

ericlewis91
Jan 27, 2011, 6:03 PM
That map left out the Oxbury mall. How could you forget the Oxbury Mall?

that mall is AMAZING! better then masonville and white oaks!

i travel there 3x a day for my shopping needs

manny_santos
Jan 27, 2011, 8:17 PM
that mall is AMAZING! better then masonville and white oaks!

i travel there 3x a day for my shopping needs

Are you in the 75-84 demographic? :D

MolsonExport
Jan 27, 2011, 8:38 PM
^if he was, he would be at Cherryhill Village Mall.

ericlewis91
Jan 28, 2011, 12:18 AM
i hope you sensed the sarcasm...

but they do need express routes (from north to south)

with only a few stops on the way

Masonville - UWO - Downtown - ? - White Oaks

Kokkei Mizu
Jan 28, 2011, 5:38 AM
i hope you sensed the sarcasm...

but they do need express routes (from north to south)

with only a few stops on the way

Masonville - UWO - Downtown - ? - White Oaks

? = Victoria Hospital, probably.

Pimpmasterdac
Jan 28, 2011, 10:07 PM
a BRT Route like White Oaks to Maisonville is a practical and realistic form of Rapid Transit. It would actually be used, not cost a great amount, carry a significant amount of people, and most importantly move them quickly!

The time factor was the main reason I stopped taking a bus from home to UWO. When it takes 45+ min to get somewhere I can drive in 15 min, you know Public Transit isn't up to task.

A Route like that, would be a money making one, something that the LTC needs with loss in ridership, and funding from levels of government. Focus on important corridors rather than these special interest milk runs to Lambeth that carry less than a handful of people and surely lose money.

If LTC wants to get people back on the bus after the dip from the strike, bring in Rapid Routes along high density corridors. If they can convince people that bus times will be somewhat comparable to cars then others would consider taking the bus more frequently!

Simpseatles
Jan 29, 2011, 3:29 PM
I agree that 2 bus rapid transit lines from north to south would be the best option for the city right now. I don't think the city is growing fast enough, or has the ideal situation for LRT. Waterloo region has multiple downtowns that go in a long north to south stretch, Hamilton stretches out along the lakefront from east to west, while London has 1 downtown surrounded by a fairly even radius of sprawl. Even with this, there are the 2 corridors that could use some type of rapid transit.

The city would benefit from any type of creative transit planning, but light rail is a huge jump for a city that doesn't even have 1 proper freeway going around or through the city!

GreatTallNorth2
Jan 30, 2011, 2:16 AM
I spoke to Harold Usher today. He was at White Oaks Mall at a city of London booth (He sits on the LTC board).

After talking to Harold, I can assure everyone here that London has a very unambitious plan for transit. When I talked LRT with him, he said that he won't see it in his lifetime. Although Harold is a supporter of transit, he is more in favour of a piecemeal slow and steady approach to growing the system. BRT will not be real BRT at all either according to his description.

manny_santos
Jan 30, 2011, 3:41 PM
I spoke to Harold Usher today. He was at White Oaks Mall at a city of London booth (He sits on the LTC board).

After talking to Harold, I can assure everyone here that London has a very unambitious plan for transit. When I talked LRT with him, he said that he won't see it in his lifetime. Although Harold is a supporter of transit, he is more in favour of a piecemeal slow and steady approach to growing the system. BRT will not be real BRT at all either according to his description.

And, my friends, is precisely why young people are fleeing London en masse. Strong public transit is one of the most important things about a city to young people today, something City Council just doesn't get. A visible lack of commitment to transit is often cited by the many people I've known who have left London in the past 4 years, most of which have relocated to Toronto. I am already hearing heavy criticism about London from some of my fellow Fanshawe students who have come from elsewhere, many of whom have condemned the transit system among other things. I personally will be leaving London later this year, for a number of reasons including this laughable approach to public transit.

This is the kind of market research City Council cannot afford to keep ignoring. Whether young people should see public transit as such a high priority is one issue, but the fact is it is a huge issue for them. The keys to the future of London are Western and Fanshawe students, and working people of a similar age. I have long felt alienated from the City of London, and that is a sentiment that was shared by a lot of Western students when I was there. Of course, the City doesn't care what any of us think. Dale Henderson ignoring e-mails from myself and fellow college/university students asking him about his position on transit speaks volumes about what we have elected. Same went for Susan Eagle when I wrote her during the 2009 transit strike.

ForestryW
Feb 1, 2011, 6:18 PM
GRT expansion including possibility of more express lines:

As Region of Waterloo council works on the next budget, Grand River Transit is asking for an expansion.

This expansion would include hiring 57 employees and buying an extra 19 buses, and would see new express routes on Fischer-Hallman, and more, reports today's Record.

Council already said OK to the plan in principle in 2010.

The expansion would mean a fare increase and a transit tax increase of $4.1 million in 2011 -- that tax is currently at $44 million.

http://www.570news.com/radio/570news/article/177253--a-bigger-grt-bigger-costs

If this is all it takes to expand bus service shouldn't it be just as easy in London? City hall needs to change from a "no" council to a "yes" council.

manny_santos
Feb 3, 2011, 12:11 AM
I was just looking at the website for Kingston Transit. They are ahead of London - not only are their cash fares $2.25, but they offer multi-ride cards similar to New York City (This also puts them ahead of the TTC). Their service also includes a route to Amherstview - which is not only outside Kingston but in another county. Considering Kingston's size it looks like they have a decent transit system.

Imagine if London Transit had a route to St. Thomas or even Dorchester.

Simpseatles
Feb 3, 2011, 12:51 AM
Imagine if London Transit had a route to St. Thomas or even Dorchester.

Yes, that would be great! This would help to create a more connected metro area. The world doesn't end south of the 401, or east of VMP, and there are growing bedroom communities all around the city.

haljackey
Feb 3, 2011, 2:31 AM
GRT expansion including possibility of more express lines:

If this is all it takes to expand bus service shouldn't it be just as easy in London? City hall needs to change from a "no" council to a "yes" council.

London really lacks when it comes to transportation.

Do you have a freeway? No.
Do you have even traffic flow? No.
Do you have a connected pedestrian path system? No.
Do you have a connected bike network? No.
Do you have express buses? No.
Do you have bus rapid transit? No.
Do you have light rail transit? No.
Do you have plans for any of this? No.

BRT may come, but it won't be true BRT. Bike lanes are only added when road widenings / reconstruction happens, which does not make for a well connected bike network. No freeway plans. No express bus plans.

Ok enough whining. Let's get our newly elected government to go from "no" council to a "yes" council when it comes to transportation. Cutting funding for the LTC isn't the greatest place to start... :(

Kokkei Mizu
Feb 3, 2011, 2:33 AM
There are already bus connections to St. Thomas. Don't know if Dorchester has anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if Aboutown went out there as well.

Simpseatles
Feb 3, 2011, 3:34 AM
Don't know if Dorchester has anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if Aboutown went out there as well.

Nope, they don't. :( A huge 500 home subdivision was just proposed near my house, so the demand will only increase.

haljackey
Feb 3, 2011, 7:02 PM
Well the route to Saint Thomas isn't an LTC route so I don't count it.

At least we don't have a system like the GTA. Friends of mine who live there say they have to pay double fare when they cross city boundaries. For example if they need to get from Toronto to Vaughan they have to pay fare for the TTC and then fare for Vaughan's transit system. Just because there's a fictional line. Toronto should just swallow the GTA cities/regions so it all becomes one big mess of a city. Maybe that way they can straighten their heads when it comes to transit.

Or why not make one all-encompassing system like Grand River Transit in K-W? Stupid. Hope London doesn't end up like this.

manny_santos
Feb 3, 2011, 8:25 PM
The Aboutown service is not promoted, and it is obscenely expensive. I think it's $15 each way. Almost as much as a Greyhound bus to Detroit.

Simpseatles
Feb 9, 2011, 2:56 AM
I just remembered that when I was in Sudbury last summer, I noticed even they had a central bus terminal! Sudbury!:haha:

I think we should compile a list of cities smaller than London (in Canada), that have central bus terminals for public transit! I wonder how many there are?

manny_santos
Feb 9, 2011, 3:24 AM
I just remembered that when I was in Sudbury last summer, I noticed even they had a central bus terminal! Sudbury!:haha:

I think we should compile a list of cities smaller than London (in Canada), that have central bus terminals for public transit! I wonder how many there are?

Brantford also comes to mind for me.

manny_santos
Feb 9, 2011, 3:24 AM
My morning bus didn't show up this morning. It was freaking cold.

haljackey
Feb 9, 2011, 3:51 AM
I just remembered that when I was in Sudbury last summer, I noticed even they had a central bus terminal! Sudbury!:haha:

I think we should compile a list of cities smaller than London (in Canada), that have central bus terminals for public transit! I wonder how many there are?


Even Guelph has put in plans for a transit terminal: http://guelph.ca/remastered/?p=1086

How sad. Our city needs to take some action.

Of course the public does not want the buses off Dundas... change is bad for most people.

Sorry about your bus. My morning bus was pretty late today too.

MrSlippery519
Feb 9, 2011, 1:30 PM
Brantford also comes to mind for me.

That was the first one that came to mind for me as well, my buddy's girlfriend went to school there and I was shocked when she told me they had a bus terminal.

I really do not understand why people want the buses to run on Dundas, I certainly get the fact for some people it means walking an extra block but in the long run it would dramatically help the downtown area. If they did this in conjunction with a central bus terminal (someone mentioned King and Clarence) it would be a great plan.

manny_santos
Feb 9, 2011, 2:31 PM
That was the first one that came to mind for me as well, my buddy's girlfriend went to school there and I was shocked when she told me they had a bus terminal.

I really do not understand why people want the buses to run on Dundas, I certainly get the fact for some people it means walking an extra block but in the long run it would dramatically help the downtown area. If they did this in conjunction with a central bus terminal (someone mentioned King and Clarence) it would be a great plan.

Taking buses off Dundas means the Downtown Rotten Ronnie's crowd (demographics including the Scream 'N' Swears, the Teenage Octomoms, and London Dope Users) have to walk an extra block to get to McDonald's.

If I were Shmuel Farhi, I'd be pissed right now.

ForestryW
Feb 9, 2011, 6:55 PM
Peterborough has a central bus terminal...population of about 85,000 (city). The lot at King/Clarence is way too small for such a terminal (the K-W Charles Street terminal takes up a whole block). The only spots I can think of that would be big enough are Talbot/York (on top of Tim's and across from the Greyhound terminal), or the Queen/Talbot/Fullarton/Ridout block.

Wharn
Feb 10, 2011, 12:26 AM
Well the route to Saint Thomas isn't an LTC route so I don't count it.
Toronto should just swallow the GTA cities/regions so it all becomes one big mess of a city. Maybe that way they can straighten their heads when it comes to transit.


Very bad idea, it's already painfully obvious that Toronto is experiencing major diseconomies of scale providing most city services. Amalgamating the city further would just turn it into a completely dysfunctional entity. However, that being said, I think it would be a good idea to create a regional transit authority and dissolve the TTC, but leave the separate cities to deal with their own problems.

Actually, it'd be a good idea to de-amalgamate Toronto back into its former constituant cities, but that's another discussion for another board section.

welcome
Feb 10, 2011, 7:05 PM
I was wondering why people in London want a transit terminal? Is London lacking service because of no terminal?

bolognium
Feb 10, 2011, 9:49 PM
Peterborough has a central bus terminal...population of about 85,000 (city). The lot at King/Clarence is way too small for such a terminal (the K-W Charles Street terminal takes up a whole block). The only spots I can think of that would be big enough are Talbot/York (on top of Tim's and across from the Greyhound terminal), or the Queen/Talbot/Fullarton/Ridout block.


I actually made a post comparing a few blocks in London to Charles Street Terminal. I figure our terminal would be equal to or slightly smaller than Kitchener's because Charles deals with a ton of buses and doubles as a Greyhound depot. Anyway here's the post:




There are a few surface parking lots that would be perfect for a downtown terminal, but I don't think the Wick lot would be large enough. I'm assuming the London terminal would be roughly the same size as Kitchener's Charles Street Terminal so I did a couple Google Map comparisons. There might be better areas, but I'm looking for locations that would require very little expropriation.



http://i38.tinypic.com/hulgg9.png
This is Kitchener's Charles Street Terminal. Like Manny said about Brantford's terminal, the Charles terminal also doubles as the City's Greyhound terminal. As you can see, it's quite large, serving as a central hub for many of K-W's buses.



http://i38.tinypic.com/35avvvd.png
At the top of this image is the parking lot on Clarence across from the Galleria. This lot is also a little on the small side, but it is VERY central. It is basically in the centre of downtown making everything fairly accessible. This would be my first pick as it would add much needed pedestrian traffic to this part of the core. The lots directly across King at the bottom of this image would also be a very good location for a terminal.



http://i36.tinypic.com/fntxyq.png
Another delicious spot for a terminal would be the large lot across from Laser Quest and Cousin Vinny's. However, with the new Shopper's Drug Mart development I'm not sure how much of this lot will be left available for the terminal. Again, the lot is very central and extremely close to Richmond St.



http://i36.tinypic.com/29yhb3o.png
This lot on York Street is directly across from the Convention Centre. This lot isn't as central as the above locations, but it is quite large and very accessible for buses.



http://i37.tinypic.com/11qmofp.png
This last lot is on Fullerton near the courthouse. Again, not as central as the earlier locations, but it is fairly large and would require no expropriation.



I really don't see us getting a downtown terminal any time soon because London just loves its desolate-looking surface parking, but it's still fun to play city planner from time to time :)

manny_santos
Feb 11, 2011, 12:33 AM
There was a proposal many years ago for a transit hub that would've been located on the north side of Horton Street, I believe near Clarence. It would've served Greyhound and London Transit.

I think Wellington and York is a good spot. More central than anything along Horton.

Snark
Feb 11, 2011, 12:35 AM
I actually made a post comparing a few blocks in London to Charles Street Terminal. I figure our terminal would be equal to or slightly smaller than Kitchener's because Charles deals with a ton of buses and doubles as a Greyhound depot. Anyway here's the post:

The bus terminal in Kitchener was built in the mid-eighties to service an urban population of about 225,000. Any terminal for London would have to be significantly larger than the current Kitchener terminal.

Besides, all you guys are mayor Joe supporters! What happened to cut cut cut? ;)

ForestryW
Feb 11, 2011, 1:10 AM
I actually made a post comparing a few blocks in London to Charles Street Terminal. I figure our terminal would be equal to or slightly smaller than Kitchener's because Charles deals with a ton of buses and doubles as a Greyhound depot. Anyway here's the post:

Missed that post earlier; all good points.

Any terminal in London would have to include a cafe to rival Transfers' coffee :worship:

haljackey
Feb 11, 2011, 1:50 AM
Besides, all you guys are mayor Joe supporters! What happened to cut cut cut? ;)

Not to get too political, but I'm sure Joe understands the need for a bus terminal and the economic benefits it brings to the downtown.

Plan now. When his term is up, we can then afford it. :haha:

ssiguy
Feb 11, 2011, 6:19 AM
I always thought the only option was Richmond & Clarence but , very happily due to the new Shopper;s that is no longer an option.
One spot I never really considered was the one at Clarence & King. Actually that would be ideal. Next to the Galleria and Market and there is that little alley from Dundas that cuts thru it..........the one where the street kids are. It could be turned into a lovely little alley with a few restaurants and greatly enhance the area.

MrSlippery519
Feb 11, 2011, 1:56 PM
The bus terminal in Kitchener was built in the mid-eighties to service an urban population of about 225,000. Any terminal for London would have to be significantly larger than the current Kitchener terminal.

Besides, all you guys are mayor Joe supporters! What happened to cut cut cut? ;)

I am not sure it would need to be any bigger than the current Kitchener terminal, keep in mind it also services Greyhound, Coaches, etc where as the London terminal would not be used for that function...though I suppose it could be if they had a chance to stop using the current Greyhound location and make one large terminal. As you know the issue with that is space.

I am a Joe supporter however the "cut cut cut" thing means nothing. I have no problem paying my fair share for things that the city needs. Of course the issue with that is I am one opinion and you cannot please everyone lol.

manny_santos
Feb 11, 2011, 4:01 PM
I believe in cutting waste, but not cutting essential services.

MolsonExport
Feb 12, 2011, 2:00 AM
SSP London meetup tomorrow (saturday february 12) at Crabby Joes downtown. come one, come all.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=188121

manny_santos
Feb 18, 2011, 11:49 PM
Something that bugs me on London Transit is when people (usually young men) stand right in the rear exit. I don't know how many times over the years I've had to get by someone blocking the exit. Even when the bus is mostly empty, I see someone gravitate to that area. Sometimes it also makes it hard to get to the back of the bus. I once told someone as I got off that they shouldn't stand there, and I got some attitude back so I haven't said anything since.

London Transit drivers seem to tolerate the practice. One time I was on a TTC streetcar a driver refused to move until a young man moved away from the exit. The driver kept yelling and the guy refused to move, at least until I stepped in.

What is so appealing about standing there?

Wharn
Feb 19, 2011, 8:57 PM
What is so appealing about standing there?

It's the badass spot :D

Whisper09
Feb 23, 2011, 11:14 AM
It's the badass spot :D

:koko:

The "badass" spot is in the middle "Look mom no hands!" position. Either way, riding in a bus isn't "badass":tup:

Anywho, from walking in high school, everyone stopping in the middle giving hugs and just plain stupid, I'm 6'5" 250lbs get the fuck out of my way or I will force you out of my way.:haha:

manny_santos
May 6, 2011, 12:41 AM
I was out at Argyle Mall today and I took a bus from there to downtown. I think the bus terminal on that property is underutilized and has a lot of potential for a regional transit hub for all of East London and for commuters from east of London. From there you can get directly to Fanshawe, Downtown, and UWO, and the west end. The land is owned by Retrocom (SmartCentres) and they have a lot of vacant land on that property that could be used for commuter parking.

(Why was I at Argyle Mall? I had a job interview at an office in that part of the city.)

MolsonExport
May 6, 2011, 2:29 AM
^it's ok, we all know the shops attracted you! :D

Simpseatles
Jun 12, 2011, 11:30 PM
Shuttle run will fuel the fun
DOWNTOWN: Jam-packed weekend easier to navigate thanks to bus loop linking Snoop Dogg, k.d. lang, the Fringe and more

By KELLY PEDRO, The London Free Press

Londoners will be able to hop on shuttle buses next Saturday to get to six events happening within blocks of each other downtown.

The jam-packed weekend and construction projects prompted organizers to establish the impromptu shuttle service.

"We thought it would be kind of a cool idea if we all came together and put together a shuttle to get people downtown a little bit easier," said Lisa Thomas, marketing and special events co-ordinator of Downtown London.

Voyageur is providing two shuttles that will run from 3 p.m. until midnight on June 18. The buses will run on a loop bordered by King St., Wellington St., Queens Ave. and Ridout St. A round trip should take about 15 minutes.

With two concerts -- k.d. lang at the Grand Theatre and rapper Snoop Dogg at the parking lot of the London Music Hall on Queens Ave. -- the Fringe festival, Nuit Blanche, the Car-Free Festival and the Kids Expo at Victoria Park, thousands are expected to flock downtown.

"There's just so much going on," Thomas said.

But for the first time, the events won't happen in isolation.

The idea, said Thomas, is to encourage people attending one event to also visit the others. Families checking out the Kids Expo at Victoria Park may stick around for a kids' band playing at 7 p.m. at the Car Free Festival, Thomas said.

Concert-goers enjoying k.d. lang or Snoop Dogg may also stay for the various Nuit Blanche events in the core.

Downtown merchants are looking forward to the weekend.

"Our merchants embrace it because with the revitalization efforts down here, they want to show that off, too," Thomas said.

The concerted effort stems from a report several years ago by the downtown task force that recommended a convergence of festivals and events to draw people downtown.

"That can foster social cohesion, bringing together people from different neighbourhoods. It's also great for bringing in out-of-towners because it's highlighting what London has to offer," said Jason Gilliland, director of the urban development program at the University of Western Ontario.

Having a celebration of festivals can also help avoid "festival burnout" some may experience as the summer goes on, he said.

Downtown London has been trying to get new festivals to co-ordinate with existing festivals to create a unique experience, said Janette MacDonald, manager of Downtown London.

"We're really trying to work together to make the weekend much bigger," she said.

"It's something we've been promoting for a long, long time and it's finally coming together."

Check out The Free Press next week for more on some of these events

DOWNTOWN EVENTS

London Fringe, June 17 to 26

A 10-day theatre festival featuring local, national and international performers who vie for attendance and awards.

Nuit Blanche, June 18, 9 p.m. to 3 a.m.

Galleries, museums, laneways, sidewalks, alleys and parks become venues for contemporary art activities, exhibits and performances.

k.d. Lang, June 18, 8 p.m.

The Grammy and Juno award winning singer performs at the Grand Theatre with her touring band the Siss Boom Bang.

Snoop Dogg, June 18, 7 p.m.

The U.S. hip-hopper plays outdoors at the London Music Hall parking lot.

Car-Free Festival, June 18 to 19

A two-day environmental festival with live music, vendors, kids' activities and local artists in one big street party.

Kids Expo, June 17 to 19

Music, performances, demonstrations and fun for kids aged three to 15 at Victoria Park.

............................................................................................................

Sounds like a cool idea, and it's awesome that all these events are happening at once! I know that I would not want to be late for the Snoop Dogg concert if I was at the Kids Expo, and had to go see k.d. Lang!:haha:

go_leafs_go02
Sep 2, 2011, 6:38 PM
Interesting blog/article from the Free Press.

LTC next year will have buses meeting the same service levels as what was around in 1990.

http://blogs.canoe.ca/londoncityhall/general/ltc-goes-back-to-the-future/

HOw good was transit back then? That's incredible if you think about it

MolsonExport
Sep 4, 2011, 6:45 PM
Anyone go to Fall festival? I went friday night. Hardly anybody there.

manny_santos
Sep 4, 2011, 8:57 PM
Anyone go to Fall festival? I went friday night. Hardly anybody there.

I drove by Victoria Park yesterday and there didn't appear to be anything going on there.

Kokkei Mizu
Sep 11, 2011, 3:29 AM
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=214676243429975615507.0004aca12a92de21ea646&msa=0&ll=42.980037,-81.241493&spn=0.209226,0.308647

I've been thinking about a possible LRT network for London consisting of 4 lines. I took into account current nodes and denser areas, and also possible future nodes (old Psych Hospital lands, Oxford and Wonderland, etc.)

Also, notice all 4 lines go past the intersection of Dundas and Richmond. I feel that the intersection could be a good transfer place if they do it right.

What do you guys think? :)

ssiguy
Sep 11, 2011, 3:40 AM
I like the Richmon/Wellington and Hamilton/UWO route but I'm not sure about the other two.
I like the Dundas/Airport section but after that I would head it to Wortley but then continue the line down Wharncliff to Commissioner over to Westmount Mall. Also the other line I would use our route to Wonderland and then head north at Wonderland up to Sherwood Forest or all the way up to HWY#22.
That said first things first, they have to extend the operational hours especially on Fri/Sat to atleast 1:30 am.

Kokkei Mizu
Sep 11, 2011, 3:53 AM
Why extend to Westmount? It's a dead mall, and Wonderland is already designed for only cars in mind. It's just massive parking lot after massive parking lot... How would having LRT over there make any difference?

Wharn
Sep 12, 2011, 4:05 AM
Why extend to Westmount? It's a dead mall, and Wonderland is already designed for only cars in mind. It's just massive parking lot after massive parking lot... How would having LRT over there make any difference?

I honestly don't think most of the proposed lines would work as intended. In most cases, you simply don't have the density to support them; a good example was the one you pointed out, but also the Hamilton Rd. portion. The entire roadway is narrow and surrounded by Scarberia-esque development, so not only would you see a poor return on light rail, but you would also see more congestion resulting from mixed streetcar-automobile traffic. I don't like the Byron extension because the place just doesn't have the density to justify the added expense of construction.

The 2 Dundas and 6 Richmond are very popular with students, and they seem to like the fact that the buses are able to go through the University campus to shorten walking distances. It's more convenient that way. The campus is not friendly terrain for streetcars, so you would lose the convenience aspect of buses while gaining no tangible benefits. Adding to that, Richmond is already very busy 4-lane street that already has enough obstacles for buses to dodge. One stalled car would not only tie up the streetcars, but the entire arterial. Perhaps trolleybuses would be a better choice?

I like the Wellington Road line, but I think it should turn onto Dundas rather than weave north. The Oxford line would be a good idea since it runs through a couple of high-density nodes, and travels along a street that (for the most part) is fairly wide. Eliminate the jogs at Highbury and Wharncliffe, and you've got yourself a good crosstown line that can quickly move people from one end of the city to another.

LondONstudent
Sep 18, 2011, 4:30 AM
I think an L line connecting Western to Downtown, then travel from D & R along Dundas then up first st to Fanshawe would be best, with brt link to Victoria Hospital for the inital 5-15 years after set up.

haljackey
Jan 2, 2012, 6:31 PM
So I was in Toronto for new years, staying at a hotel along Yonge Street. I took the subway multiple times during my stay and in doing so re-realized just how much London Transit sucks.

Then a thought occurred to me. If London isn't considering light rail/RT due to space constraints, why not build some subways? I know this is a pipe dream but can you imagine how much development, density, growth and prosperity it could bring to London?
-Getting shovels in the ground would also help stimulate the economy, creating many jobs.

I imagine two lines for London.
-The Richmond line: running from the VIA rail station in downtown towards UWO and Masonville Mall below Richmond Street.
-The Oxford Line. It would start at Richmond and Oxford and head below Oxford Street towards Fanshawe College and the London Airport.

-Future extensions could include the Wellington line, which would continue the Richmond line from the VIA rail station, extending it to White Oaks Mall along or below Wellington Road. A western extension of the Oxford line could also be considered.

A rail/service yard could be built in the Airport area. Another possible location could be south of the 401 if the Wellington route is made. Perhaps the CP yard/line could be used as well.

One can dare to dream of improving London's sucky transit, right? :P

MolsonExport
Jan 3, 2012, 1:49 AM
^not in a 100 years would we see a subway in London. Hell, I have my doubts that there will be a downtown bus terminus by that time.

MrSlippery519
Jan 3, 2012, 4:57 PM
No chance would a subway be built, they would never re-coupe the costs associated with building it. Granted something simply like you suggested haljackey would be very well used I just do not see it ever happening.

Best we can hope for in the next 10 years is a downtown terminal along with a few BRT routes....though I personally am hoping for a LRT system that is a pipe dream as well.

haljackey
Jan 3, 2012, 10:48 PM
This city says no to LRT, no to a downtown bus terminal, and no to adequate buses. Some busy routes come every 30 mins and its terrible for commuters.

Heck, they might even say no to BRT by time the 2030 transportation master plan is finalized this year.

K/W must be laughing at us right now... they have good bus service, a bus terminal, approved plans for LRT and plans for BRT, not to mention GO rail service and highways for efficient long distance bus routes.

Stevo26
Jan 4, 2012, 2:04 AM
This city says no to LRT, no to a downtown bus terminal, and no to adequate buses. Some busy routes come every 30 mins and its terrible for commuters.

Heck, they might even say no to BRT by time the 2030 transportation master plan is finalized this year.

K/W must be laughing at us right now... they have good bus service, a bus terminal, approved plans for LRT and plans for BRT, not to mention GO rail service and highways for efficient long distance bus routes.

And to think that LTC were once very publicly gung-ho on getting BRT in place by 2024! The real problem, of course, is money, and with city hall trying to hold the line on tax increases and find savings in the budget as well, there's not going to be any extra money for the LTC.

In an environment where the insane idea that you can prosper by imposing austerity holds sway, don't be too surprised if a perception eventually develops that even tires for LTC buses are an unaffordable 'frill', never mind whether anything gets done about BRT!

London's problem is that it is a 'someday' kind of city - as in, 'someday the province or the feds will give us the funding we need to invest in transportation, public infrastructure, etc.' So, until 'someday' comes, nothing concrete gets done and everything that needs fixing slowly falls apart. Indeed, if it hadn't been for federal stimulus money, it's a sure bet that recent (and long-overdue sewer and road upgrades, including the new Sarnia Road bridge) simply wouldn't have been done at all.

haljackey
Jan 4, 2012, 5:13 AM
What baffles me is that the provincial and federal governments are contributing to a 8 billion+ dollar LRT line in Toronto. That's totally unfair to medium cities like London.

Let's do some basic math and assume London is 1/10th the population and importance of Toronto (it's more like 1/7th population-wise, 350k/2500k). That would mean that, comparably, London could get a 800 million -1 billion+ dollar transit project.

Imagine what London could do with that amount of transit money. It would certainly fill all the deficiencies of our current system and could get BRT or even some LRT started.

Life ain't fair when it comes to funding eh? And that's just one project currently underway in Toronto! And it's also with them 'stopping the Gravy Train' and Rob Ford slashing taxes.

Wharn
Jan 4, 2012, 5:55 AM
Sorry to shoot this down so unceremoniously, but you do know Ottawa, the Grand Imperial Capital of our Illustrious Nation, has been trying to get a subway going since at least 1910? And it's what, two or three times the size? The only way we'll see a subway in London is if Earth someday ends up looking like Trantor.

Just a few points... first of all, K/W has a much easier time implementing a transit system because the whole city is centred around one central corridor, and they don't really have to spread their resources evenly like the LTC does. Secondly, the TTC is an absolutely hopeless, pathetic, embarassing mess that you should not be using as a reference point. Anything you see the TTC doing, it is probably doing it wrong.

MrSlippery519
Jan 4, 2012, 1:30 PM
What baffles me is that the provincial and federal governments are contributing to a 8 billion+ dollar LRT line in Toronto. That's totally unfair to medium cities like London.

Let's do some basic math and assume London is 1/10th the population and importance of Toronto (it's more like 1/7th population-wise, 350k/2500k). That would mean that, comparably, London could get a 800 million -1 billion+ dollar transit project.

Imagine what London could do with that amount of transit money. It would certainly fill all the deficiencies of our current system and could get BRT or even some LRT started.

Life ain't fair when it comes to funding eh? And that's just one project currently underway in Toronto! And it's also with them 'stopping the Gravy Train' and Rob Ford slashing taxes.

I think this is very important to think about, you raise a good point. Is it simply that London does not ask for the funds and or does not have a plan in place to use them therefore someone like Toronto??

haljackey
Jan 4, 2012, 5:52 PM
...the TTC is an absolutely hopeless, pathetic, embarassing mess that you should not be using as a reference point. Anything you see the TTC doing, it is probably doing it wrong.



I have no argument here, other than the fact that the TTC receives a lot more funding from upper levels of government than the LTC percentage-wise. While I'm not pushing for parity, imagine how much money for transit London would have if the percentages were fairer.

When it comes to transportation planning, London has truthfully been stupid for the past 50 years. I'm sure if we had some plans in place when the stimulus money started to roll in 2008, more would have been done.

These days we can't even agree on a vague vision when it comes to transportation. Our road system is now pretty much screwed so the only way to improve transportation is through transit. Without basic components like a bus terminal and a decent master plan, London may yet go another decade before anything legitimate could possibly be considered again.

The tax freeze shouldn't change much. Toronto and other Ontario municipalities are tightening their belts yet they are getting more done than London. Joe Fontana has also stated that the tax freeze would not impact projected budget increases for transportation projects and capital road works.
-Despite this, the LTC may raise fares just to maintain the status quo. Something may be fishy here (...But that always seems to be the case when it comes to London. :haha:)

armorand93
Jan 4, 2012, 7:06 PM
If it makes you guys feel better, Winnipeg is JUST getting started on BRT after:

1959 proposal for Subways (300,000?)
1978 and 1999 LRT proposals and (550,000)
an 2003 BRT attempt. (600,000)

Also, our funds are a mess :P

dennis1
Jan 5, 2012, 8:56 PM
Why not

Parkhill - Alisa Craig- Illderton- Downtown

Port Stanley- St Thomas - Downtown.

Downtown London- Belmont -Tillsonburg

Downtown London - Ingersoll -Woodstock.

Downtown London -Thorndale/Friendly Corners-St Marys

Why not get Oxford, Elgin and Middlesex counties involved?

That why it can bring commuters in and benefit the whole region. I mean LRT by the way.

manny_santos
Jan 5, 2012, 9:23 PM
Why not

Parkhill - Alisa Craig- Illderton- Downtown

Port Stanley- St Thomas - Downtown.

Downtown London- Belmont -Tillsonburg

Downtown London - Ingersoll -Woodstock.

Downtown London -Thorndale/Friendly Corners-St Marys

Why not get Oxford, Elgin and Middlesex counties involved?

That why it can bring commuters in and benefit the whole region. I mean LRT by the way.

I doubt the populations of most of those places could support LRT connections to London.

LRT to Strathroy and St. Thomas would likely be the most economical, although that could have stops in Komoka, the Hyde Park area, and in South London. Buses would be more economical for other communities such as Ilderton that are not on existing rail lines.

dennis1
Jan 5, 2012, 11:45 PM
I doubt the populations of most of those places could support LRT connections to London.

LRT to Strathroy and St. Thomas would likely be the most economical, although that could have stops in Komoka, the Hyde Park area, and in South London. Buses would be more economical for other communities such as Ilderton that are not on existing rail lines.

True. But I think LRT to the Burbs is will put more people behind the project.

MolsonExport
Jan 6, 2012, 1:30 AM
LRT to Ailsa Craig? What the heck are you smoking?
Don't forget a stop in Denfield.

Snark
Jan 6, 2012, 1:56 AM
To Denfield? Then Clandeboye as well - just because it has the coolest town name in that area.

And.... LRT? No way. I want Harrier jump jets. That way they can pick me up and drop me off in my backyard. No walking to the stop, and I can sleep in an extra 20 minutes due to reduced transit time.

Oh, and I want them piloted by fricken' sharks with fricken' laser beams on their forehead.

ssiguy
Jan 8, 2012, 6:26 PM
I've always thought that sharks with laser beams was an option worth exploring.
Seriously though, I wouldn't agree with commuter buses but rather commuter rail.
The obvious first choice would be PT Stanley/St.Thomas with a stop at Commisioners and then Komoka/Strathroy with a stop at Oxford for UWO. After that perhaps Ingersol/Woodstock.
Now I'm not talking GO trains here but rather something more like the diesell Ottawa O-Trains which are about the size of a standard LRT. The reason I would use rail is that people are more likely to take rail as opposed to bus due to being more comfortable, faster, and having a better reputation. Whether that reputation is actually based on fact is irrelevant as people are much more likely to hop on board a train than a bus. The advantage of using a train is that it takes advantage of current infrastructure but very importantly, it would be better used in the winter. It would offer the reliability that even caars cannot attain during inclimant weather. That would be a big selling point during the winter which is when they would also get the student traffic.

Wharn
Jan 9, 2012, 12:10 AM
It would offer the reliability that even caars cannot attain during inclimant weather. That would be a big selling point during the winter which is when they would also get the student traffic.

Depends what kind of car.

A FWD or AWD vehicle equipped with snow tires is practically unstoppable. The aforementioned vehicles without snow tires and RWD cars in general, however, are not.

Trains come with their own set of problems. They may be able to match a car's reliability but I doubt they can exceed it. Back when I lived in the Imperial capital, there were many cases of streetcar delays in heavy snow, usually caused by derailments or frozen switches. There were occasional reports of frozen switches on the GO train or the subway/RT lines. And yet the taxi cabs kept going... in fact, they were having a field day getting all the poor commuters home.

go_leafs_go02
Jan 25, 2012, 8:57 PM
LTC is introducing new bus stop signs, in blue and white to replace the old black on yellow:

http://ltconline.ca/Pubs/SamplePlateGraphic.pdf

Is that the best they can do? Really, is this the 1980s? They look horrible, and lack any uniqueness. They're a total afterthought, and yes, they're better than the original black/yellow ones, merely for information sake, but they lack any uniqueness to them. I LOVE the clipart bus symbol too...

How about this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iBSUQcpRBfM/Tm5DFF8HPXI/AAAAAAAACGU/QH_cSzo_0zo/s1600/bus-signs.png

Really, I hope something can be done to spruce up these signs. Just not impressed with them, one bit.

K85
Jan 25, 2012, 9:56 PM
Those suck.......

I love yours!!! Submit it to the LTC somehow if they're your own work man!

go_leafs_go02
Jan 25, 2012, 10:00 PM
Those suck.......

I love yours!!! Submit it to the LTC somehow if they're your own work man!

Oh they're not mine - they're from Vancouver - Translink. They're fantastic however.

I'll fire off an email to them however.

manny_santos
Jan 26, 2012, 1:09 AM
That sign looks like it was produced in under 6 minutes in Microsoft Word. A 10-year-old could've done a better job.

londoner_abroad
Jan 26, 2012, 9:13 AM
What an embarrassment!! If I were traveling and I saw that sign I think I would take a picture and show everyone what a failure of a bus company this must be! I would much rather just keep the signs as is then waste the money to change them to this design!? Who makes these decisions? Who designed these?

And these are the same people who will bring us "BRT"!?! Can't wait to see what that will look like - what a joke.

Wharn
Jan 27, 2012, 4:41 AM
These honestly look terrible. They're just a hideous jumble of text that reminds me of the Windows 98 BSoD, no logic or thought put into them at all. Why you would even bother replacing the yellow signs when this is all you have to offer is beyond me. Whoever was responsible for the design ought to be fired.

go_leafs_go02's Vancouver bus stops are much more appealing. The routes are neatly laid out in list format, there is a clearly segmented presentation of information, and they can be very easily modified.

We all ought to write snail mail letters to the LTC, and provide them with a link to this page.

go_leafs_go02
Jan 31, 2012, 9:01 PM
I just got a response from LTC about those HORRIBLE bus stop signs, that I would argue look WORSE than what's out there now:

The new design for the plates was selected after careful consideration and consultation with various community organizations, including the City of London and the Canadian National Institute for the Blind.

The colours used are in keeping with London Transit corporate colours as well as adhering to the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act. The darker background with light lettering offers good contrast for people with visual impairments to read clearly. The white lettering will also be reflective making it easier for passengers to read the information at night.

The aim of the new signs is to provide passengers with information including the bus stop ID for use with our Webwatch and IVR systems, the routes that service the stop as well as any additional service notes regarding operating times for specific routes.

All the reasons they give has NOTHING to do with sign design. They look horrible. I'm happy with the additional information provided on them, but c'mon, they're like someone said, looked like a 10 year old designed them in 10 minutes.

ltc@londontransit.ca - email them if you'd like to see a better effort for the bus stop signs. What a joke and like I said, it's not 1985 anymore, have a better design be done.

FB page for the cause: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Better-Bus-Stop-Signs-for-London-Ontario/355116941174566?v=wall

MrSlippery519
Jan 31, 2012, 9:20 PM
I have no problem with the information provided on the new signs...and quite honestly anything is better than what they currently have however this new design is pretty underwhelming.

I would love to see what other options they had on the table and why they felt this one was the best (maybe it really was the best??). The section with the routes is the terrible, it's right in the middle and is not overly clear what they are attempting to achieve by the sign.

go_leafs_go02
Jan 31, 2012, 9:22 PM
I would love to see what other options they had on the table and why they felt this one was the best (maybe it really was).

If it was, perhaps it was time to hire on some new graphic sign designers then. Like I said, the added information is good, but the design and look of them is laughable.

manny_santos
Feb 1, 2012, 1:25 AM
I must admit, the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act (AIDA) does present companies and organizations with very unique challenges, and having worked with the act in a previous job, I can attest that organizations are under the gun to comply with this act in every way possible. Having AIDA-compliant signs for public transit users does present a challenge for London Transit.

There is still a lot of improvement with this signage though, and it could be argued that if the signs are difficult to use for the average person, a person with a visual impairment will have a much harder time with it.

haljackey
Feb 1, 2012, 6:09 PM
Good ol' LTC, based on the Scumbag Steve Internet Meme:

http://i.imgur.com/aFpkw.jpg

go_leafs_go02
Feb 1, 2012, 6:51 PM
I must admit, the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act (AIDA) does present companies and organizations with very unique challenges, and having worked with the act in a previous job, I can attest that organizations are under the gun to comply with this act in every way possible. Having AIDA-compliant signs for public transit users does present a challenge for London Transit.

There is still a lot of improvement with this signage though, and it could be argued that if the signs are difficult to use for the average person, a person with a visual impairment will have a much harder time with it.

A few people commented that the "font-type" used and ALL-CAPS within the signage will make it actually more difficult to read. Plus, the solid background with no border, or nothing breaking the information between the bus stop number, the routes provided, and the service information puts alot of it into a big jumble.

MrSlippery519
Feb 1, 2012, 9:49 PM
A few people commented that the "font-type" used and ALL-CAPS within the signage will make it actually more difficult to read. Plus, the solid background with no border, or nothing breaking the information between the bus stop number, the routes provided, and the service information puts alot of it into a big jumble.

Honestly making a few simple changes as you suggest would go a long way in making the sign more appealing and more legible/informative.

As you said it looks like one big mess of information.

haljackey
Feb 9, 2012, 3:07 AM
Another awesome meme of the LTC that has generated a lot of attention:

http://i.imgur.com/l3qTP.jpg

This is so true! :haha:

MolsonExport
Feb 9, 2012, 3:19 AM
^if only. Sit by the side of the road, creating a bottleneck is more like it. London has the boxiest looking buses on the planet.

MolsonExport
Feb 9, 2012, 3:20 AM
Good ol' LTC, based on the Scumbag Steve Internet Meme:

http://i.imgur.com/aFpkw.jpg

heh heh! I like it. :tup:

haljackey
Feb 9, 2012, 4:15 AM
Like them? Here's one more, staring the Dos Equis guy AKA the most interesting man in the world:

http://i.imgur.com/UG2cd.jpg

Stevo26
Feb 9, 2012, 5:01 AM
From time to time, I like to futz around with graphic design. Here's my take on what the new LTC bus stop signs could look like. I think the design is a bit busy, but it is information dense - which isn't a bad thing, considering that we're increasingly living and working in an information-centric, information-driven world. My only concern is how this kind of sign might work out for the visually impaired.

Whatever flaws there are in my design, I think that works better than what's proposed by the LTC - which, in my humble opinion, is lacking in imagination.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7042/6844831051_810a595c18_z.jpg

go_leafs_go02
Feb 9, 2012, 6:11 AM
From time to time, I like to futz around with graphic design. Here's my take on what the new LTC bus stop signs could look like. I think the design is a bit busy, but it is information dense - which isn't a bad thing, considering that we're increasingly living and working in an information-centric, information-driven world. My only concern is how this kind of sign might work out for the visually impaired.

Whatever flaws there are in my design, I think that works better than what's proposed by the LTC - which, in my humble opinion, is lacking in imagination.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7042/6844831051_810a595c18_z.jpg

Great job on that. I like it quite a bit. Have a few concerns with it though.

Green, Blue, Yellow, White. Too many colours. Perhaps replace the yellow with the blue.

Enlarge the bus stop numbers a bit more. And I don't think having the Facebook, twitter logos are necessary. Have all traffic redirect to the website, or offer bus apps that would be integrated with having a QR code on each bus stop that you can scan and it will tell you the next bus arriving.

Maybe make a few of those tweaks, and really, send that to the LTC. It's already way better than what they are proposing.

K85
Feb 9, 2012, 6:41 PM
Change the yellow to green, ditch the social media stuff, make the phone number a bit smaller than the bus routes, and enlarge the route numbers. You have a damn winner right there!!!

MolsonExport
Feb 9, 2012, 7:15 PM
yeh, too much social media.

K85
Feb 9, 2012, 9:09 PM
Should point the LTC to this site / thread to get some idea about what would work. People in threads like these have the real ideas of how it should look

Highinthesky
Feb 9, 2012, 9:30 PM
London has the boxiest looking buses on the planet.
Interesting opinion

TTC
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/TTC_Orion_VII_Bus_8084.jpg

Hamilton
http://www.newflyer.com/pix/Buses/restyled/hamilton.jpg

Edmonton
http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/features/ets4908ct/ets_4908ct-tour-23.jpg

Vancouver
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RuEAGY2Vvs8/TOW00MJvs_I/AAAAAAAAAUY/W84xxFhBKBk/s1600/3.jpg

NYC
http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/08/nyc-mta-m34-bus.jpg

Tokyo
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/NishiTokyoBus_A5731a.jpg

Dubai
http://flashydubai.com/images/dubai_buses_women_only.jpg

All a bunch of boxes to me :)

go_leafs_go02
Feb 9, 2012, 10:10 PM
Great job on that. I like it quite a bit. Have a few concerns with it though.

Green, Blue, Yellow, White. Too many colours. Perhaps replace the yellow with the blue.

Enlarge the bus stop numbers a bit more. And I don't think having the Facebook, twitter logos are necessary. Have all traffic redirect to the website, or offer bus apps that would be integrated with having a QR code on each bus stop that you can scan and it will tell you the next bus arriving.

Maybe make a few of those tweaks, and really, send that to the LTC. It's already way better than what they are proposing.

Two more comments:

have the LTC logo blue match the colour of the blue on the sign.

Can you update the clip-art bus item to a more modern looking bus? It's certainly better than the LTC blue bus sign, but who knows...

Great work again. Please send that to the LTC.

MY FB page plug: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Better-Bus-Stop-Signs-for-London-Ontario/355116941174566

manny_santos
Feb 9, 2012, 11:08 PM
Most of London's buses look identical to buses in most of the rest of Ontario, the only difference being the colour scheme and logo. Some cities also have the route number displayed on the back of the bus, but that's a minor difference.

MolsonExport
Feb 10, 2012, 2:02 PM
^Ok, I stand corrected. My busrider days (and there were many thousands thereof) were mainly in Montreal and Vancouver, and (at least then) the busses were not as cuboid. Plus, they mostly had windows at the back, which precluded the affixation of the leering telemarketer advertisement.