[GreatTallNorth2]

NHL teams courting RIM's Balsillie
Theresa Tedesco, Chief Business Correspondent, National Post
Published: Tuesday, June 03, 2008

As many as eight National Hockey League teams have been in discussions or made overtures to Jim Balsillie in recent months about a possible sale or minority partnership with the Canadian billionaire, sources say.

A struggling U.S. economy, strong Canadian dollar and weak hockey markets south of the border have combined to make the deep pockets of the 47-year-old co-founder of the BlackBerry device too irresistible to some NHL owners, despite Mr. Balsillie's tempestuous relations with the league's head office in New York.

Since last December, Mr. Balsillie, who has an estimated net worth of US$1.6-billion according to Forbes magazine, has both received and initiated approaches with the owners of NHL clubs, according to sources familiar with the discussions.

Mr. Balsillie, the co-chief executive of Research in Motion Ltd., declined to comment on Tuesday.

However Richard Rodier, a special advisor to the Canadian billionaire, confirmed there have been discussions with current NHL owners, although he refused to identify the teams.

"Our experience has been that there is certainly no shortage of owners who want to sell their team right now but we have to be very careful about the market," he said. "If the team were doing well financially in the applicable market, one can assume the owner would have no interest in selling it."

Of the eight ownership groups who engaged in talks and negotiations with Mr. Balsillie, several represent NHL teams in the southern United States, including the Atlanta Thrashers, Carolina Hurricanes, Tampa Bay Lightning and Dallas Stars. An offer was tabled by Mr. Balsillie for the Buffalo Sabres last December but was scuttled when he insisted on moving the team to Southwestern Ontario.

Other discussions involved partners in groups that own teams, for example, the Edmonton Oilers, where one of the 34 partners had expressed an interest in selling his stake to Mr. Balsillie.

In any event, Mr. Balsillie, a fiercely patriotic hockey fan, has said he is not interested in owning an existing Canadian team. Nor does he want to move a franchise from one Canadian city to another.

According to insiders, the Waterloo, Ont.-based businessman maintains a firm desire to relocate a team from the United States to Canada, most likely to Hamilton, Ont., and refuses to accept conditions that include a prohibition from moving a team that is struggling in its current market.

Bill Daly, deputy commissioner of the NHL, confirmed Tuesday the league is "aware" that "contacts" have been made between Mr. Balsillie and some team owners.

"To the extent that there are those kinds of communications, I am not necessarily surprised," he said. "Whenever you're dealing with businessmen in these types of situations, you are looking at your options all the time. I don't think there's an abnormality in those types of contacts from time to time."

Wayne McDonnell, a clinical assistant professor of sports management at New York University, says a slowdown in the U.S. economy is creating a "buyer's market" in the 30-team league.

"We are in for some tough economic times and if you're buying a hockey franchise, you're likely going to get a discount," he explained. "Owners are looking at a quick opportunity to sell a franchise for more than they paid for it, especially because there are some very weak U.S. markets the NHL calls home."

Prof. McDonnell, who worked as a financial analyst and accountant at Madison Square Garden and Radio City Music Hall in New York, said there are "always going to be owners who shop their teams because the NHL over-expanded into markets they quite frankly don't belong in, especially in the U.S."

For example, Prof. McDonnell is skeptical of the league's move into such "interesting and unchartered" cities as Nashville and Columbus, where he says the vast majority of the community is employed by Ohio State, which supports football and basketball.

"I look at them, I shake my head and ask, ‘are they valuable, fruitful markets for the NHL?' "

[MistyMountainHop]

Gary Bettman, after hearing this news:

http://media.canada.com/35e2c96f-34dc-4e83-92e9-d555bb9ee29c/0525bettman375.jpg

[SteelTown]

Hamilton to acquire an NHL team: Round 8

[Calgarian]

Edmonton approached Balsillie? I thought Kats purchased 100% of the Oilers.

Bettman is an absolute idiot, he throws teams in the southern US and leaves them to die. I think it would be a mistake to pull out teams like Tampa Bay, Dallas, or Carolina as they have all won cups, and if they ice a decent team, they should be able to fill seats. Teams like Florida, Phoenix, Nashville and maybe Atlanta are in big enough markets, but the fact that hockey is foreign to them makes them a good candidate to move. The NHL should try and get a big movie deal with hollywood, more cameo's for players on TV and in movies for this game to become more mainstream instead of just fading away in the background like it currently is. A gold medal for the US in Vancouver would definitely help grow the sport too. Basically, I would hate to see the NHL completely give up on the southern US, but if some of the teams are losing money, move them back to a secure market and keep the league healthy, while trying to save the rest of the southern teams.

[Wooster]

I really do want to see a crappy southern US franchise or two move to Canada. Any one of Florida, Tampa, Carolina, Nashville, Atlanta would be good picks.

[wild wild west]

I believe it is inevitable that, sooner or later, one or more of these US teams is going to relocate to Canada. There are too many teams that are losing too much money down there. The 6 Canadian teams account for something like 35% of league revenues. There are probably a good dozen or more US franchises that are losing money. Bettman can't keep teams in Nashville, Raleigh and Phoenix forever when the interest obviously isn't there. It's just a matter of time.

[Calgarian]

Bettman can't keep teams in Nashville, Raleigh and Phoenix forever when the interest obviously isn't there. It's just a matter of time.

Which is why I said the NHL needs to build interest through popular culture. I think half the reason that Basketball has grown so much in popularity is that it was wholy embraced by hip hop culture, and as a result became more mainstream when hip hop became more mainstream. Basketball is a good game, but I think Hockey is a much more entertaining game, and should be easily able to compete as they play the same number of games and can accomodate the same number of fans.

[S_B_Russell]

"johnnyc: Edmonton approached Balsillie? I thought Kats purchased 100% of the Oilers."

There was a small group of current Oilers owners who were trying to put togerther a rival bid to Katz, but they didn't have enough cash. I wouldn't be surprised if they had approached Balsillie for partial ownership.

With that said, Katz is going to be the new owner once the sale has been approved by the NHL.

[WhipperSnapper]

Which is why I said the NHL needs to build interest through popular culture.

Mike Myer's latest vision would certainly help if it takes off like Austin Powers

[Calgarian]

Mike Myer's latest vision would certainly help if it takes off like Austin Powers

I doubt it will, just due to the fact that it's the Maple Laughs that the movie is centred around. Make it the rangers or Red Wings and it would do far better, but Mike Myers is from TO, and for him, to do any other team would be blasphemy.

[LeftCoaster]

I dont think people in the states have the same negative affilitation that Canadians have with the leafs. If the movie does well I see it being a good thing for sure.

[Calgarian]

I dont think people in the states have the same negative affilitation that Canadians have with the leafs. If the movie does well I see it being a good thing for sure.

I just mean because it's a Canadian team, they would have a hard time identifying with the movie. I couldn't resist taking a shot at the losers though, that's why I called them the laughs.

[Rico Rommheim]

I hope that movie bombs because 1) its the fucking leafs and 2)it just looks like shit.

[MistyMountainHop]

Predators co-owner Del Biaggio sued
Wednesday, June 4, 2008
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

SAN FRANCISCO -- A prominent Silicon Valley financier has been accused of defrauding a bank to secure a US$10 million loan that he used to buy an ownership stake in the NHL's Nashville Predators.

William (Boots) Del Biaggio III was sued this week in Santa Clara County Superior Court by Modern Bank, a New York-based private bank that counts former NFL star Joe Montana as a vice chairman.

It is the latest in a series of legal setbacks for Del Biaggio, the son of a well-known local banking family and co-founder of the investment firm Sand Hill Capital. The 40-year-old businessman is accused in three separate lawsuits of providing forged documents to financial institutions to land multimillion dollar loans that he has not repaid.

Del Biaggio's lawyer did not immediately return calls seeking comment Wednesday.

In the latest lawsuit, filed Monday, Modern Bank says Del Biaggio supplied bogus account statements to prove the size of his personal investments as collateral for the $10-million loan he and wife Kristen Del Biaggio received in November.

Those documents showed that Del Biaggio had a brokerage account in the amount of $20 million at San Francisco-based investment bank Merriman Curhan Ford, the lawsuit claims.

But those documents turned out to be forged, and the account was actually not Del Biaggio's, according to the suit.

Instead, the account belonged to another unidentified bank client whose name was allegedly removed from the statements by Merriman Curhan Ford broker David Scott Cacchione and replaced with Del Biaggio's name.

The suit claims the accounts were then passed off to Modern Bank as Del Biaggio's. The deception was uncovered only when he stopped supplying the required monthly account statements that were part of his contract with the bank, the lawsuit said.

Kristen Del Biaggio, Cacchione and the Merriman Curhan Ford firm are also named as defendants in Modern Bank's lawsuit.

Lawyers for the other defendants did not immediately return calls from The Associated Press on Wednesday.

Del Biaggio also is named as a defendant in two other lawsuits filed over the past week by other financial institutions claiming they were duped into forking over big loans based on misrepresentations of his wealth.

Heritage Bank of Commerce, a San Jose-based bank co-founded by Del Biaggio's father, has accused him of using similar tactics to secure a $4 million loan in December. DGB Investments Inc., a San Jose-based investment firm, is also suing Del Biaggio over a $3 million loan he received in November under what the firm says were false pretenses.

The catalyst for the lawsuits was a regulatory filing last week by Merriman Curhan Ford that the Justice Department and the Securities and Exchange Commission were investigating an unidentified broker and client for allegedly using the account information of other clients to obtain loans.

The firm, which is named as a defendant in all three of the latest lawsuits, said it is co-operating fully with the federal investigations.

[MichaelS]

I doubt it will, just due to the fact that it's the Maple Laughs that the movie is centred around. Make it the rangers or Red Wings and it would do far better, but Mike Myers is from TO, and for him, to do any other team would be blasphemy.

What about "Mystery Alaska"? That one featured the Rangers quite prominently.

[Evergrey]

The Nashville market had the 7th highest ratings for Game 5 of the Finals in the U.S.... tied with Philadelphia. Don't take away the Preds.

...

btw, speaking of Hollywood / NHL collaborations

K9sQW8eD8QM

[Boris2k7]

There's also this abomination as well...

93iLTn0BpBc

GET IT OUT MY HEAD!!! :brickwall:

[Only The Lonely..]

These days the NHL needs a place like Winnipeg a lot more than Winnipeg needs the NHL.

That said, I predict that hockey will return to the River City in 10 - 15 years. Not because the city became so much wealthier, but rather, because the NHL needs reliable mid to small grade markets where people actually give a damn about the game.

To put it another way, a team in Winnipeg couldn't lose any more money than a team in Phoenix.

The only difference is that people might actually show up to watch the games.

http://www.curtiswalker.com/jets/images/wo_fans2.jpghttp://www.moosehockey.com/gameday/040302/whiteout.jpghttp://www.curtiswalker.com/jets/images/wo_fans3.jpg

zm6pMT51EGM&feature=related

[Dalreg]

Blah blah blah blah. This idiot will never learn. At least I don't have to put up with this shit day in day out.

[SteelTown]

Don't count Balsillie out
BlackBerry billionaire determined to bring NHL club to Hamilton

June 05, 2008
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator

A combination of a weakened American dollar and sagging economy combined with robust revenues from Canada's National Hockey League teams is heating up the issue of U.S. based teams moving to Canada.

And that puts Hamilton and Winnipeg back on the front burner with NHL Players Association head Paul Kelly naming the two cities as prime candidates for relocated U.S. franchises.

Meantime, on the heels of a Toronto Star account that Canada's six teams contribute almost one-third of the 30-team league's ticket revenues, The National Post reports that up to eight NHL teams have been in discussions or have approached BlackBerry billionaire Jim Balsillie about a sale of a franchise or minority ownership.

Meantime, Balsillie's Hamilton friend, Ron Foxcroft, says the RIM mogul seems determined to bring a team to Hamilton.

"Ten years ago I said anyone who wanted to bring an NHL team needed to be on medication. But he's the exception. I wouldn't bet against him."

Another element that could be moving in Balsillie's direction is that the man who seems determined to block his Steeltown aspirations, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, may be losing the confidence of owners.

With a disproportionate chunk of live-gate money coming from Canada, 31 per cent, on top of minimal TV revenue in the U.S., Canadian teams are now subsidizing some Southern U.S. teams.

And the man who brokered the deal which kept the Nashville Predators out of Balsillie's hands last year, William (Boots) Del Baggio, faces two lawsuits for acts of fraud in obtaining loans and seems to have gone underground.

The NHL and the Predators have not clarified if Del Baggio actually put a promised $60 million into the franchise when a local ownership group assumed it.

That Nashville group was assembled after Balsillie began taking deposits on season-ticket packages for the team in Hamilton.

That was during the second of three reported attempts by buy teams and move one to Hamilton.

Balsillie broke off negotiations to buy the Pittsburgh Penguins in 2006 when the league said he could not move the team.

And the Post claimed his plan to buy and move the Buffalo Sabres fell apart for the same reason late last year.

The billionaire, a passionate Canadian and hockey fan, still has to resolve the territorial rights of Toronto Maple Leafs and the Sabres if he tries to move a team.

Richard Rodier, a special adviser to Balsillie, confirmed to the Post that there have been negotiations with current NHL owners, though he declined to name them.

Hamilton councillor Terry Whitehead, the city's pointman on NHL matters, says he keeps in "indirect" touch with Balsillie.

The high-tech magnate has let his exclusivity agreement for leasing Copps Coliseum lapse, Whitehead said, but "there's no other candidate right now and we're interested and open for business."

[the dude]

Which is why I said the NHL needs to build interest through popular culture.

it just ain't gonna happen. 99% of americans couldn't give a damn about hockey and no commercial or movie's gonna change that. south of the border, hockey is a niche sport not unlike roller derby or bull riding. even in 'good' markets like philadelphia, new york, boston and chicago, fan interest in fairly limited. these cities have about 20,000 rabid hockey fans who show up night in and night out. for better or worse, the future of the nhl is in canada...or perhaps europe, though i think that's looking less and less likely.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Every hockey fan in southern Ontario (especially Hamilton) should listen to the interview that Bob McCowan (Prime Time Sports) had with Jim Basillie's lawyer. Jim's interest in bringing an NHL team to Hamilton has just as much to do with rejuvenating Hamilton's downtown as it does his interest in hockey. He makes it clear that they want to be in downtown Hamilton and want to see the city cleaned up. He is asked "why don't you try to bring a team to the London - Kitchener corridor instead? He does not dismiss that idea, but says that Hamilton is his first choice.

Here is the link to listen to the entire show...

http://www.fan590.com/onair/primetimesports/media.jsp?content=20080604_193510_3836

Imagine this: in 5 years, could the Hammer have 1) an NHL team 2) Light rail transit and 3) a 1000 foot skyscraper? Talk about a comeback city!

[MolsonExport]

I would love to see Hamilton get a team. But I feel most for hockey fans in Quebec City and the Peg, two places where NHL franchises once existed.

[Greco Roman]

I would love to see Hamilton get a team. But I feel most for hockey fans in Quebec City and the Peg, two places where NHL franchises once existed.

No need for pity; it's only a matter of time before Butthead has to locate to viable markets like Winnipeg and QC. It's just a question of when, and I would bet likely within 5-10 years.

[SteelTown]

An NHL franchise once existed in Hamilton as well, Hamilton Tigers, which got relocated to New York.

[Greco Roman]

An NHL franchise once existed in Hamilton as well, Hamilton Tigers, which got relocated to New York.

Hmm, it seems like Hamilton really loves tigers having two sports franchises with that name in them, eh? ;)

[Evergrey]

it just ain't gonna happen. 99% of americans couldn't give a damn about hockey and no commercial or movie's gonna change that. south of the border, hockey is a niche sport not unlike roller derby or bull riding. .

really... then how do you explain the blockbuster ratings for NBC's telecasts of the Finals? Game 4 won primetime in the U.S. and Game 5 was the highest rated game in 6 years. "We should just relocate the entire NHL to tiny Canadian markets like Winnipeg, St. John, Medicine Hat, Kenora and YORK FACTORY!"

[wild wild west]

really... then how do you explain the blockbuster ratings for NBC's telecasts of the Finals? Game 4 won primetime in the U.S. and Game 5 was the highest rated game in 6 years. "We should just relocate the entire NHL to tiny Canadian markets like Winnipeg, St. John, Medicine Hat, Kenora and YORK FACTORY!"

Actually I'd take the happy medium of getting rid of a few of the lacklustre "sunbelt" markets and putting teams in Hamilton, Winnipeg and Quebec City. Even an overall contraction to 26-28 teams to reduce the dilution of the talent pool wouldn't be a bad thing.

[GreatTallNorth2]

really... then how do you explain the blockbuster ratings for NBC's telecasts of the Finals? Game 4 won primetime in the U.S. and Game 5 was the highest rated game in 6 years. "We should just relocate the entire NHL to tiny Canadian markets like Winnipeg, St. John, Medicine Hat, Kenora and YORK FACTORY!"

Not sure the ratings should be considered "blockbuster". They are better than average, but blockbuster?

We don't need to relocate "the entire NHL" to the small towns of Canada, but relocating a team in a southern U.S. market to a city like Hamilton or Winnipeg makes a lot of sense. I am sorry if facts get in the way of your little rant, but in Canada we try to use logic to make decisions.

[Evergrey]

I am sorry if facts get in the way of your little rant, but in Canada we try to use logic to make decisions.

ohhhh... here comes the famous "Canadian Superiority Complex" again... how precious

[Rico Rommheim]

Teams that should be scrapped:

1. Florida (nobody cares over there about their hockey team, and neither do I)
2. Anaheim ducks (bad name, bad history, bad location)
3. San Jose (completely out of context, if Californians truly enjot hockey, let them rally around the LA kings)
4. Phoenix (I mean come on, what's next a franchise in Mexico?)
5. Houston
6. Raleigh
7. Atlanta
8. Nashville

that would make the league with 22 teams.

Give two back to Canada and give one back to Hartford and give one to Seattle.

[SHOFEAR]

Teams that should be scrapped:

1. Florida (nobody cares over there about their hockey team, and neither do I)
2. Anaheim ducks (bad name, bad history, bad location)
3. San Jose (completely out of context, if Californians truly enjot hockey, let them rally around the LA kings)
4. Phoenix (I mean come on, what's next a franchise in Mexico?)
5. Houston
6. Raleigh
7. Atlanta
8. Nashville

that would make the league with 22 teams.

Give two back to Canada and give one back to Hartford and give one to Seattle.


Since when does Houston have a team...?

[LeftCoaster]

Drinking so early Rico... Houston?

Also San Jose gets pretty good attendance and following, definetly not one I would scrap.

Not sure the ratings should be considered "blockbuster". They are better than average, but blockbuster?

We don't need to relocate "the entire NHL" to the small towns of Canada, but relocating a team in a southern U.S. market to a city like Hamilton or Winnipeg makes a lot of sense. I am sorry if facts get in the way of your little rant, but in Canada we try to use logic to make decisions.

How are you using facts??

Your argument has been even more subjective than his has?

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, but dont call him out when you haven't provided any facts to back yourself up either.

[Rico Rommheim]

HOUSTON!!?? Dallas for fuck sake! I'm not drunk, i'm not even hung over! Shame on me!! :( :(

[GreatTallNorth2]

Facts... (with help from the Toronto Star

1) 31 per cent of the National Hockey League's $1.1 billion (U.S.) in league ticket revenue, has come from the six teams based in Canada

2) the league has seen its ticket revenue rise almost 10 per cent, but 11 of the 24 U.S.-based clubs were either revenue-flat or lost ticket income

3) The Coyotes are now, officially, losing more than $30 million a season (according to the Arizona Republic) and have lost as much as $600 million since leaving Winnipeg.

4) Toronto Maple Leafs finished first on the list at $1.9 million in ticket revenue per game. This is the area where the team would be moved to...hockey crazy southern Ontario.

5) According to the report in 2007-08 eight U.S. teams - the Coyotes, the Atlanta Thrashers, the Florida Panthers, the New York Islanders, the Chicago Blackhawks, the Washington Capitals, the Nashville Predators and the St. Louis Blues - generated less than half the amount of ticket revenue of the Edmonton Oilers and Ottawa Senators. At $1.2 million in ticket revenue per game, the Oilers and Senators earned the least amount of ticket money among the six Canadian franchises.

I guess I just assumed that everyone knew the obvious...sorry!

[Acajack]

Since the NHL is shared between Canada and the U.S., there won’t ever be teams in smaller markets like Halifax or Saskatchewan that might logically merit a team if we had an all-Canadian pro hockey league.

In light of this, Hamilton, Quebec City and Winnipeg are the only Canadian markets large enough by North American standards to envisage membership in the NHL. (They are actually a tad small, but local interest in hockey more than makes up for that shortcoming.) Logically, at least two of these cities could be in the league within the next decade. This is feasible given that according to the National Post, at least eight teams in trouble have been talking to Balsillie. Although presumably not all of them want to move and most of them may just be looking for an investor that will help the team stay put. Not sure if Balsillie will go for that. He seems determined to have his own team and has the $ to do it.

Looking at our three Canadian cities:

Hamilton has Balsillie’s megabucks going for it, but it also has huge “market intrusion” issues with Toronto and Buffalo. This hasn’t always prevented new pro teams from being established however. DC was the Baltimore Orioles’ turf for a long time and the Expos still moved there to become the Nationals. The Anaheim Ducks set up shop in the LA Kings’ turf, etc. I presume that Balsillie has enough dough to make the needed improvements to Copps Coliseum as well.

Both Quebec City and Winnipeg lack a “white knight” in shining armour like Balsillie who can just sign a cheque for a team. I know Quebec a bit better and Marcel Aubut (the guy who sold the Nordiques to Denver) is actually pretty chummy with Bettman but he won’t pay for all this himself like Balsillie would. The Colisée is antiquated, but could be expanded. It’s undersized (but not by too much) and needs more luxury boxes. Quebec City is officially Montreal territory since the Nordiques left but I’m sure the Canadiens wouldn’t make too much of a fuss. Getting that rivalry back would be worth a lot to them.

As for Winnipeg: they’ve got a beautiful brand-new arena that’s a bit too small for the NHL. Any ideas anyone on whether the MTS Centre could be easily expanded? I’ve heard it’s been squeezed in pretty tight on a downtown block. And what about ownership? Would the people who own the AHL Moose be interested/able to pay to get into the NHL? I don’t see any territorial issues in Manitoba, although technically there may be an obscure clause somewhere that it’s part of the Flames, Oilers or Wild’s backyard.

[Acajack]

It is worth pointing out here that some teams in the southern part of the U.S. like Dallas, San Jose, Anaheim, Los Angeles and even Tampa are doing quite well and are highly unlikely to be candidates for relocation any time soon.

So, Gary Bettman’s much-derided “southern exposure” has actually has some success.

[wild wild west]

Both Quebec City and Winnipeg lack a “white knight” in shining armour like Balsillie who can just sign a cheque for a team. I know Quebec a bit better and Marcel Aubut (the guy who sold the Nordiques to Denver) is actually pretty chummy with Bettman but he won’t pay for all this himself like Balsillie would. The Colisée is antiquated, but could be expanded. It’s undersized (but not by too much) and needs more luxury boxes. Quebec City is officially Montreal territory since the Nordiques left but I’m sure the Canadiens wouldn’t make too much of a fuss. Getting that rivalry back would be worth a lot to them.

As for Winnipeg: they’ve got a beautiful brand-new arena that’s a bit too small for the NHL. Any ideas anyone on whether the MTS Centre could be easily expanded? I’ve heard it’s been squeezed in pretty tight on a downtown block. And what about ownership? Would the people who own the AHL Moose be interested/able to pay to get into the NHL? I don’t see any territorial issues in Manitoba, although technically there may be an obscure clause somewhere that it’s part of the Flames, Oilers or Wild’s backyard.

Re: market intrusion, as far as I know that is only an issue when a market is within a certain distance of other hockey markets (I think it's 100 km or something?) - thus the issue with Buffalo and TO arguing for compensation should Hamilton get a team. Ottawa never had to compensate nearby Montreal when their franchise was awarded, and Miami didn't have to compensate Tampa when they got the Panthers.

[Evergrey]

Nashville is a strong hockey market... it just has ownership issues. Nashville had one of the highest viewership ratings in the U.S. for the Cup finals.

[MolsonExport]

Bring back NHL hockey to Kenora:

The Stanley Cup, the trophy awarded to the NHL's winning team, was won by the Kenora Thistles hockey team in 1907. The team featured such Hall of Famers as Billy McGimsie, Tommy Phillips, Roxy Beaudro, and Art Ross, for whom the Art Ross Trophy is named. Kenora is the smallest town to have won a major North American sports title.

Put that in your cup and chock on it, hairy (gary) buttman.

[drew]

As for Winnipeg: they’ve got a beautiful brand-new arena that’s a bit too small for the NHL. Any ideas anyone on whether the MTS Centre could be easily expanded? I’ve heard it’s been squeezed in pretty tight on a downtown block. And what about ownership? Would the people who own the AHL Moose be interested/able to pay to get into the NHL? I don’t see any territorial issues in Manitoba, although technically there may be an obscure clause somewhere that it’s part of the Flames, Oilers or Wild’s backyard.

The MTS centre wasn't designed for further expansion. Although if you check out http://www.jetsowner.com he makes a pretty good case for the fact that having 15000 or so seats can still be viable. Plus it keeps demand there.

The current owner (Mark Chipman) of the AHL Moose is on recored that he is certainly interested in pursuing an NHL franchise and I believe there is a viable deep pocket ownership group in place.

There are zero territorial issues for Winnipeg. Flames and Oilers backyards? For shame! No self respecting Winnipegger would ever cheer on those teams. Too much bad blood from the series in the 80's...

Minneapolis is a solid 8-hour drive southeast, so I doubt they could ever claim any territorial rights over us either.

[Bassic Lab]

really... then how do you explain the blockbuster ratings for NBC's telecasts of the Finals? Game 4 won primetime in the U.S. and Game 5 was the highest rated game in 6 years. "We should just relocate the entire NHL to tiny Canadian markets like Winnipeg, St. John, Medicine Hat, Kenora and YORK FACTORY!"

Two traditional hockey market teams both from the US competing. It makes sense that American ratings would be higher for it than for other recent years, which typically involved a Canadian team and a minor American market team. The issue remains that ratings have been lousy for well over a decade, precluding the league from signing a major television contract. Achieving such a contract was the sole reason for expansion into non-traditional markets, it didn't work and now the league is stuck with quite a few dead weight teams that are just dragging the others down. Gate revenue is essentially all that the league has, and all that it can hope to have for the foreseeable future and when it comes to gate revenue, Winnipeg is not as small market as half of the American teams.

Quite frankly I don't know what some of the owners are thinking, they own black holes that just keep sucking their money away.

[LeftCoaster]

The NHL's 'unsent response letter' to Tiger Woods, courtesy of ESPN:

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1548/pg2letter590xv4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1548/pg2letter590xv4.d32ba05ca4.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=300&i=pg2letter590xv4.jpg)
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/080604

[Acajack]

Interesting timing. Quebec City’s Le Soleil has this scoop today:

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20080605/CPSOLEIL/80604324/6488/CPACTUALITES

For those who can’t read French, Philippe Couillard, Quebec’s Minister of Health, the number 2 man in the provincial government (and probably its most respected) and the top minister for Quebec City region says that a city of the stature and size of Quebec City needs a better arena than the old Colisée. He says that the idea has his support.

One of the reasons that the Nordiques left town was the lack of support from governments (especially the province) for a new Colisée.

[Acajack]

The MTS centre wasn't designed for further expansion. Although if you check out http://www.jetsowner.com he makes a pretty good case for the fact that having 15000 or so seats can still be viable. Plus it keeps demand there.


I’ve read his arguments and I don’t disagree with him. 15,000 people a night in a 15,000 seat arena is better than 12,000 people a night in an 18,000 seater.

Most NHL arenas are around that, 18,000. But if you look at the teams which are in difficulty and who have bigger arenas, how often are their 3,000 or 5,000 seats above what the MTS Centre can hold not just gathering dust?

The size of the MTS Centre wouldn’t necessarily prevent an NHL team from relocating there, it would just require a tad more arm-twisting (involving perhaps the transfer a team in more dire straits).

[Calgarian]

The NHL's 'unsent response letter' to Tiger Woods, courtesy of ESPN:


haha, so true.

[SHOFEAR]

I’ve read his arguments and I don’t disagree with him. 15,000 people a night in a 15,000 seat arena is better than 12,000 people a night in an 18,000 seater.

Most NHL arenas are around that, 18,000. But if you look at the teams which are in difficulty and who have bigger arenas, how often are their 3,000 or 5,000 seats above what the MTS Centre can hold not just gathering dust?

The size of the MTS Centre wouldn’t necessarily prevent an NHL team from relocating there, it would just require a tad more arm-twisting (involving perhaps the transfer a team in more dire straits).

Your assuming a nearly equal dollar though. Let's wait and see what the Oilers (and the flames) do when it comes to possible revenue streams for their new buildings to anticipate having to make up for a .90, .80 or .70 dollar at some point. I get the feeling it's going to the MTS center in it's place as a excellent minor league venue but far behind a modern NHL building.

[drew]

Your assuming a nearly equal dollar though. Let's wait and see what the Oilers (and the flames) do when it comes to possible revenue streams for their new buildings to anticipate having to make up for a .90, .80 or .70 dollar at some point. I get the feeling it's going to the MTS center in it's place as a excellent minor league venue but far behind a modern NHL building.

It would seem the economics of oil have changed the fortunes of Canada's "petro-dollar" for the foreseeable future...

The MTS Centre for Winnipeg also opened up a new revenue stream that wasn't available when the Jets were here, namely direct revenue from concessions and more lucrative boxes.

[flar]

I don't know what to say, other than good luck to Balsillie and I hope Hamilton, Winnipeg and Quebec get teams again. We hashed over all the details before, I think the last Balsillie/Hamilton thread had nearly 1000 posts.

[Acajack]

Your assuming a nearly equal dollar though. Let's wait and see what the Oilers (and the flames) do when it comes to possible revenue streams for their new buildings to anticipate having to make up for a .90, .80 or .70 dollar at some point. I get the feeling it's going to the MTS center in it's place as a excellent minor league venue but far behind a modern NHL building.

I see your point but I tend to agree with Drew that the C$ isn’t going to be coming down very much anytime soon. Not to the 70-cent range anyway.

Plus, the day is coming when the NHL is going to have to review its business model downwards and stop pretending it’s playing in the same league as the NFL, MLB and the NBA in the U.S. This reality check should be a positive for NHL clubs in Canada since it will have a downward impact on the cost of having a team.

Now, what’s that comin’ up fast behind Gary Bettman and the NHL? Why, it’s Major League Soccer makin’ a run for fourth place!

[kitchener-lrt]

There was an article on CBC.ca/sports that the 6 Canadian teams in the NHL make up 31% of the leagues revenue!
Wake up Bettman

[DC83]

Sorry guys.
re: Hamilton
popularity of the game, the fact that we've had a franchise before, the fact that Balsillie wants it so bad and the fact that American franchise owners may beg Balsillie to buy AND relocate has NOTHING to do with Hamilton getting or not getting a team.

We will most likely never have one thanks to the GREED of the MLSE.
They sold Maple Leaf Gardens to a grocery chain rather than the St Mike's Majors (making it a generic suburban grocery store over a Leafs or Hockey-related establishment) allllll because they didn't want venue competition. They scammed the Gov't to fund BMO Field for the TFC, then turned around and sold the naming rights to BMO making $$ of that.

OH don't 4get the fact that they obviously dont' even care about hockey anymore or they'd invest some money into that horrible team!
(sorry Leafs fans... but even you guys can admit it's MLSE's fault your team is sucking so bad lately).

[Greco Roman]

really... then how do you explain the blockbuster ratings for NBC's telecasts of the Finals? Game 4 won primetime in the U.S. and Game 5 was the highest rated game in 6 years. "We should just relocate the entire NHL to tiny Canadian markets like Winnipeg, St. John, Medicine Hat, Kenora and YORK FACTORY!"

I'm shocked that you have even heard of Medicine Hat, Kenora and York Factory :D

But really, what good is your sarcastic argument with comparing Winnipeg, a 700,000+ viable NHL city with places like Medicine Hat and Kenora who are under 70,000? It doesn't make your argument credible at all.

Winnipeg may be a smaller to medium sized market, but it is hardly tiny. And neither are QC and Hamilton. These three markets are most likely much larger than many of those in the US Sunbelt.

[someone123]

It seems strange to me that there is no national Canadian hockey league for mid-sized or large markets. I guess it doesn't matter that they are mixed in with teams for smaller towns..?

Also, having looked at Wikipedia, why is it called the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League when about 8/18 teams are not in Quebec?

[Evergrey]

since the Stanley Cup thread was closed IMMEDIATELY after its conclusion without a chance for analysis.. I suppose I'll post this news here... in an attempt to dispel the myth that the US does not care about hockey

more monster ratings for the NHL! I heard Tony Kornheiser of ESPN say today on his radio show with Michael Wilbon that "The NHL is back!"

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/06/05/nhl-stanley-cup-finals-best-us-game-six-in-eight-years/4045

NHL Stanley Cup Finals: Best US Game Six Ratings in EIGHT Years

June 5th, 2008 by Robert Seidman Email This Email This

Last night’s Stanley Cup Finals game six where the Detroit Red Wings won the Stanley Cup four games to two over the Pittsburgh penguins had over 7 million viewers in the preliminary overnights and was the highest rated game in the US in eight years. It earned a 4.4/7 (rating share) during primetime (8p-11p ET) and was the best performance in a game six since a 2000 New Jersey/Dallas matchup had a 5.2/11. It was a 100% increase over two years ago when Edmonton faced Carolina. It was the highest ratings for NBC since they reacquired NHL in 2004. NBC reports a peak rating of 5.3/9 from 10:30p-11:00pm ET.

Here are the local market top ten for the broadcast, led of course by Pittsburgh and Detroit. Note: I know that these numbers are only for NBC viewing in Detroit. I’m trying to dig up the CBC numbers for the Detroit market from our friends at Nielsen so that I can give a full view of viewing for the Detroit local market. I’ve heard from many in Detroit that nobody there watches the games on NBC.

That’s obviously not true, judging from these numbers, but I agree it’s better to give the full picture of the local market viewing including those watching via CBC, and will add them if I get them:

WEDNESDAY’S TOP 10 MARKETS:
1. Pittsburgh, 37.4/51
2. Detroit, 30.6/45
3. Buffalo, 10.9/16
4. Denver, 6.6/11
5. St. Louis, 5.7/9
6. Richmond, 5.6/9
T7. Philadelphia, 5.5/9
T7. Columbus, 5.5/9
T9. Minneapolis, 5.1/10
T9. Fort Myers, 5.1/10

Just for the sake of clarity, the above rankings are by HH Rating and rank the top cities in terms of percentage viewing. I know Richmond (Richmond-Petersburg, Va) is raising some eyebrows. This just means that 5.5% of the television homes in the Richmond market were watching that game. New York is the largest market with almost 7.4 million television homes according to Nielsen. Richmond is the 59th market with only around 527,000 homes. But 5.6% of the Richmond market would be eclipsed by a 1/2% rating in the New York Market in terms of total viewing. But as a % more people in Richmond market watched.




....


however, ratings were down in Canada


http://winnipegsun.com/Sports/Hockey/2008/06/05/5786206.html

Ratings for Stanley Cup final up big in U.S., down in Canada

TORONTO — Television ratings for the Stanley Cup final surged in the U.S., but dipped slightly in Canada compared to last year’s series.

CBC broadcasted the entirety of Detroit’s six-game win over Pittsburgh, and drew an average of 2.301 million viewers.

That’s down eight per cent from last year, when an average of 2.503 million viewers tuned in to watch Anaheim defeat Ottawa in five games.

It was an entirely different scene south of the border.

The Detroit Red Wings’ clinching 3-2 victory Wednesday over the Pittsburgh Penguins drew a 4.4 overnight rating and a 7 share on NBC, the network said Thursday. The Game 6 between Edmonton and Carolina two years ago earned only a 2.2.



The rating is the percentage watching a program among homes with televisions, and the share is the percentage tuned into the broadcast among those households with TVs on at the time.

[christopherj]

having looked at Wikipedia, why is it called the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League when about 8/18 teams are not in Quebec?

The league started off with teams in Quebec only, and in the early 90's started expansion to Halifax (and then eventually other Atlantic Canada/US cities in the late 90's/early 2000). A decision was made a while back to keep the name for history reasons.

[Greco Roman]

however, ratings were down in Canada


http://winnipegsun.com/Sports/Hockey/2008/06/05/5786206.html

Ratings for Stanley Cup final up big in U.S., down in Canada

TORONTO — Television ratings for the Stanley Cup final surged in the U.S., but dipped slightly in Canada compared to last year’s series.

CBC broadcasted the entirety of Detroit’s six-game win over Pittsburgh, and drew an average of 2.301 million viewers.

That’s down eight per cent from last year, when an average of 2.503 million viewers tuned in to watch Anaheim defeat Ottawa in five games.

It was an entirely different scene south of the border.

The Detroit Red Wings’ clinching 3-2 victory Wednesday over the Pittsburgh Penguins drew a 4.4 overnight rating and a 7 share on NBC, the network said Thursday. The Game 6 between Edmonton and Carolina two years ago earned only a 2.2.



The rating is the percentage watching a program among homes with televisions, and the share is the percentage tuned into the broadcast among those households with TVs on at the time.

Well, I don't think it takes a genius to realize why the ratings were down in Canada; NO CANADIAN TEAMS WERE IN THE FINAL. I would think that in the case of two Canadian teams in the final, that the viewership in Canada would be skyhigh and in tank in the US.

What I think we should be focusing on is the overall attendance/viewership of the NHL audience and it's demographics. That, I think, is where Canada will win hands down.

[BlackRedGold]

Winnipeg may be a smaller to medium sized market, but it is hardly tiny. And neither are QC and Hamilton. These three markets are most likely much larger than many of those in the US Sunbelt.

Sure they're biggest then many markets in the US Sunbelt. Just not bigger then the US Sunbelt markets that have NHL teams.

While Hamilton has lots of other cities in close proximity that might make it a viable NHL market, the other two are much smaller then any other current NHL market.

[drew]

Sure they're biggest then many markets in the US Sunbelt. Just not bigger then the US Sunbelt markets that have NHL teams.


Smaller in raw population numbers, but I don't think anyone can disagree that despite the smaller population, the numbers of actual people who follow the sport and have a corporate community that does the same is far larger in cities like Winnipeg and Quebec, and their surrounding areas.

The economics of the current NHL is tickets, concessions and corporate boxes, not metro-area population.

[Sebastien Gauthier]

@ Evergrey

I don't think you should interpret the comments on this thread as being negative toward USA or something like that. There is definitely good hockey markets in America and I think most people on this forum are happy to see that an American like you share our passion for the game. However, Gary Bettman chose the wrong cities to implement NHL teams. IMHO, it would have been more astute to grant teams to cities like Seattle, Portland, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Indianapolis than installing teams in the Sunbelt. It's only for cultural reasons, the cities that I have mentionned have a similar climate to Canada and hockey has roots in these cities.

Year after year, 18,000 rabid hockey fans pack the Bradley Centre in Milwaukee for the NCAA frozen four tournament. But when you hear about a possible expansion, all Bettman has in mind is Las Vegas where it definitely won't work. Bettman's motto is if David Stern setup a team in Orlanda so why can't I ? At the end of the day it's not a matter of Canada vs USA but a matter of putting team where there is a certain interest for the game of hockey. There is more and more American players in the USA, so that's good news but I don't think hockey will ever be on the same stage as the MLB, NBA and NFL in the USA.

Best Regards,
Sebastien

[Evergrey]

I would love to see the NHL in Cleveland and Milwaukee, and I view them as "natural hockey cities"... but unfortunately those markets are already saturated with major pro sports. Cleveland and Milwaukee have 3 major sports franchises in MLB, NFL and NBA (counting the Green Bay Packers as a "Milwaukee team"), and they're not large enough to adequately support all 4 major leagues. Now if the NBA ever left those cities, then there would be an opportunity fr the NHL (not likely in Cleveland with the NBA's version of Sidney Crosby there).

Indianapolis is basketball country and doesn't really act like the rest of the North... not sure how NHL would do there... it's in the "maybe" category with Kansas City.

I think Seattle and Portland are no-brainers (both cities competed for the Stanley Cup 90 years ago)... but those are the types of cities that won't allow themselves to be held hostage by billionaires that demand new arenas

and I think Baltimore and Cincinnati are two cities that could support the NHL. I actually think Baltimore would be a better hockey town than DC... as the sport seems to fit with their personality more. .. of course there would be territorial issues with the Caps.

Cincy supports the Cyclones well... but once again you have issues with that woeful franchise in nearby Columbus.

Other than that... I guess you could always resuscitate the Hartford Whalers.

I think if the NHL continues to get good Finals matchups like this year (instead of teams nobody cares about like Anaheim, Carolina, Tampa, etc)... and continue to develop high-profile stars and keep the game exciting... it could reach the "NBA tier" in the US... keep in mind that despite the intense glare of a few personalities like Kobe Bryant... the NBA is on a much lower tier than NFL and MLB... and the NBA's television ratings have been in freefall in the post-Jordan era.

[Berklon]

Come on, the US still doesn't care about hockey (generally speaking). The ratings increase this year was simply due to the 2 teams playing.

Hockey is very localized in the US... and even within those markets it's still pretty small. Hockey is mentioned on page 4 (or later) of the sports pages in most cities unless something major happens. Hockey gets pre-empted for a horse racing preview show. The national TV contract in the US is a joke where the NHL basically gives away their games for free.

Markets where the NHL was strong (but still isolated to a core group of followers) has even dropped. Boston and Chicago don't sell out. Detroit even saw a drop with 94% attendance (good, but it has dropped) and let's not forget all those empty seats in the conference finals. NJ can't sell out in a new arena either. NY Islanders have a huge population to draw from and still had the worst attendance in the league with an average $13,000.

If the NHL were doing so well in the US, they'd have a real national TV contract and there wouldn't be 15 teams losing money (recession or no recession).

In any case, noone is saying to kill hockey in all US cities - but there are enough cities that don't want or deserve a franchise. Let's start with Pheonix, Atlanta and Florida.

Let's get some teams back in Canada! It makes sense in respecting tradition, it makes sense for the fans and it makes sense for business.

[Evergrey]

Americans love ice hockey... it is growing in participation across the country as new rinks open and new leagues form... give us a compelling Finals matchup instead of a succession of Finals matchups pitting an anonymous Sunbelt franchise with no fan base versus an obscure team from Alberta (no offense Flames and Oilers fans)... and we'll tune in.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/05/24/nhl-stanley-cup-finals-1995-2007/3896

NHL Stanley Cup Finals, 1995-2007

May 24th, 2008 by Bill Gorman

http://tvbythenumbers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/nhlstanleycupfinals2007-500x400.gif

Full Data for NHL Stanley Cup Finals Ratings, 1995-2007


Year Viewers (million) Network Teams
1995 5.21 FOX New Jersey Devils vs. Detroit Red Wings
1996 5.09 FOX Colorado Avalanche vs. Florida Panthers
1997 6.37 FOX Detroit Red Wings vs. Philadelphia Flyers
1998 4.83 FOX Detroit Red Wings vs. Washington Capitals
1999 4.87 FOX Dallas Stars vs. Buffalo Sabres
2000 5.51 ABC New Jersey Devils vs. Dallas Stars
2001 5.06 ABC Colorado Avalanche vs. New Jersey Devils
2002 5.77 ABC Detroit Red Wings vs. Carolina Hurricanes
2003 3.63 *ABC/ESPN New Jersey Devils vs. Anaheim Ducks
2004 3.29 *ABC/ESPN Tampa Bay Lightning vs. Calgary Flames
2005 Strike, no season
2006 2.83 **NBC/OLN Carolina vs, Edmonton
2007 1.76 NBC/VS Ottawa vs. Anaheim

*ABC had 5 telecasts & ESPN had 2 telecasts so this is the combined average of both networks.

**NBC had 5 telecasts & OLN had 2 telecasts so this is the combined average of both networks.

Data for 2006 & 2007 is Live+SD, all previous years is Live viewing.


http://penguins.nhl.com/ext/images/fans/204.jpg

Nielsen TV Ratings Data: ©2008 Nielsen Media Research, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

[Greco Roman]

What was (is) the biggest downfall of the NHL (at least in my opinion)?

Opening the door to letting Americans run the show, which is allowing them to block out Canadian cities (viable Canadian cities) from participating in the league. This is not in the best interest of the league and is doing more damage than good.

Period.

[Sebastien Gauthier]

Guys, let's try not to make it a Canada vs USA matter. Berklon, I think you're extremely bias as you've given factual but imcomplete information voluntarily or not.

Markets where the NHL was strong (but still isolated to a core group of followers) has even dropped. Boston and Chicago don't sell out. Detroit even saw a drop with 94% attendance (good, but it has dropped) and let's not forget all those empty seats in the conference finals. NJ can't sell out in a new arena either. NY Islanders have a huge population to draw from and still had the worst attendance in the league with an average $13,000

Boston didn't have a good team in years and they have three other kick-Ass teams in Beantown (Celtics, Red Sox, Patriots). When the Bruins finally have a spectacular team, the fans will come back.

The problem in Chicago was that the games were not broadcasted. They were not showing their product at all. When owner Bill Wirtz died, his son Rocky took over and his first decision was to broadcast hte games. Attendances immediately climbed and there was many sold out crowds at the end of the season as the Blackhawks were fighting for a playoffs spot.

NY Islanders: This is one of the worst managed team in the NHL with owner Charles Wang. Can't blame the fans for not supporting this franchise.

New Jersey Devils: I concur with you on that one. I myself have a hard time to explain why they don't draw more people at their games.

[ZiZiPop]

What was (is) the biggest downfall of the NHL (at least in my opinion)?

Opening the door to letting Americans run the show, which is allowing them to block out Canadian cities (viable Canadian cities) from participating in the league. This is not in the best interest of the league and is doing more damage than good.

Period.

I completely disagree with that. During the early 90's the NHL was experiencing popularity that it had never had before. This was sparked by the Gretzky trade from Edmonton to LA. The NHL believed that this popularity would continue to grow and expanded. Focusing on non traditional markets because that is where the maximum potential growth was. Very shortsighted because once that wave of popularity started to fade all these markets stopped paying attention. They tried to create demand instead of going where the demand was. Without the Gretzky (and Lemieux) factors, the NHL had nobody to exploit. With Crosby and Ovechkin things are starting to turn around but it will not get to the point it was in 94.

[Markus41]

I completely disagree with that. During the early 90's the NHL was experiencing popularity that it had never had before. This was sparked by the Gretzky trade from Edmonton to LA. The NHL believed that this popularity would continue to grow and expanded. Focusing on non traditional markets because that is where the maximum potential growth was. Very shortsighted because once that wave of popularity started to fade all these markets stopped paying attention. They tried to create demand instead of going where the demand was. Without the Gretzky (and Lemieux) factors, the NHL had nobody to exploit. With Crosby and Ovechkin things are starting to turn around but it will not get to the point it was in 94.

But when Bettman might have the final say on where teams can locate, giving preference to unviable US markets and turning away from Canadian cities such as Quebec City, Hamilton and Winnipeg, then yes, he has a valid point.

[ZiZiPop]

I agree about Bettman. He does not understand how to grow this game and can't see past the relativly small Canadian population. Basketball can be sold all across the US because Americans grow up with it. Hockey (other then the northern states) not so much. He was essentially trying to sell hockey on the novelty factor, which can never last.

I completely disagree with the "Americans runing the show" comment. Bettman being American is irrelevent. Just like there are Americans that understand the game and could do a much better job of selling hockey. There are many Canadians that don't have a clue and would do a far worse job.

[the dude]

for the most part, the league has always been american in composition. 4 out of 6 teams in the original six were american - 10 out of 12 in 67-68. that's where the people are and that's where the money's been. all i would ask for is more balance in this pathetic league. 24 american teams versus only 6 canadian ones is an outrage in my opinion. we can handle at least 3 more teams, perhaps 2 more in the toronto-hamilton area alone. for once, bettman needs to do what's best for the league. i mean, it's the equivalent of having mlb teams in kapuskasing and baie comeau while cities like st. louis and pittsburgh go without franchises.

oh, by the way, just because i haven't referenced and researched the hell outta my first comment [that hockey is a fringe sport in the states] doesn't make it false - i'm not writing my senior thesis! with a couple exceptions, those southern teams are a joke - hockey's never gonna work in nascar/dog-fighting country. we need contraction and relocation in a big way.

[Evergrey]

Go Preds!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Report-NHL-thwarts-Canadian-billionaire-s-new-a?urn=nhl,86591

Report: NHL thwarts Canadian billionaire's new attempt to own Predators

By Greg Wyshynski

http://f3.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nhl_experts__3/ept_sports_nhl_experts-987944777-1212763580.jpg?ym9Guf_ChKrNhCcK

Earlier this week, we half-jokingly noted that it was just a matter of time before the financial troubles of Nashville Predators co-owner William "Boots" Del Biaggio III and the undaunted hubris of Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie's quest for NHL ownership would collide.

Turns out they already have. Two weeks ago. Theresa Tedesco, chief business correspondent for the National Post and increasingly one of the most important hockey writers of the off-season, reports that Balsillie attempted to buy an interest in the Predators from Boots; but that the NHL warned against it:

According to sources familiar with the events, a tentative deal was arranged that would have seen Mr. Del Biaggio's combined one-third minority interest, with an estimated book value of US$30-million, transferred to Mr. Balsillie for a "significant premium."

Apparently, the talks held at a San Francisco hotel did not directly address the possibility of relocating the team, which was sold last year for US$193-million to a Nashville-based local group of investors, led by David Freeman.

However when an advisor to Mr. Del Biaggio, who was brought in to bid against Mr. Balsillie for the Predators last year, informed NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman of the discussions, sources say the 40-year-old investor was discouraged from proceeding with a deal. Mr. Del Biaggio and officials at the NHL were not available for comment yesterday. However, a source familiar with events said, "nobody would have discouraged anybody from selling their piece or making that an alternative."

There has always been a thought that Del Biaggio would have the option of buying out his fellow owners in Nashville if the problems the team faced during its near-upheaval continued. Tedesco confirms it: Del Biaggio, who she said is trying to get something out of his stake in the team before "he files for bankruptcy," has "a number of contractual rights that would have allowed him to buy out his co-partners' shares after two years if the team sustains cumulative losses of US$20-million or if it fails to maintain average attendance levels at 14,000 a game or more." The League, however, would not extend those rights to Balsillie, according to Tedesco's sources.

Fascinating stuff. It's a shame that the NHL has an enthusiastic potential owner with billions in CrackBerry profits ready to buy in, but only on the condition that he can have a team for his own backyard. Everybody Loves Pinball believes Balsillie will win and a Canadian team under his ownership will happen, and that this is "a war" Gary Bettman can't win. But what about all the ill-will he created amongst NHL owners with his egomaniacal, entitled behavior during the first Nashville mess? Anyone still have their Hamilton Predators season tickets?

[Greco Roman]

Go Preds!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Report-NHL-thwarts-Canadian-billionaire-s-new-a?urn=nhl,86591

Report: NHL thwarts Canadian billionaire's new attempt to own Predators

By Greg Wyshynski

http://f3.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nhl_experts__3/ept_sports_nhl_experts-987944777-1212763580.jpg?ym9Guf_ChKrNhCcK

Earlier this week, we half-jokingly noted that it was just a matter of time before the financial troubles of Nashville Predators co-owner William "Boots" Del Biaggio III and the undaunted hubris of Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie's quest for NHL ownership would collide.

Turns out they already have. Two weeks ago. Theresa Tedesco, chief business correspondent for the National Post and increasingly one of the most important hockey writers of the off-season, reports that Balsillie attempted to buy an interest in the Predators from Boots; but that the NHL warned against it:

According to sources familiar with the events, a tentative deal was arranged that would have seen Mr. Del Biaggio's combined one-third minority interest, with an estimated book value of US$30-million, transferred to Mr. Balsillie for a "significant premium."

Apparently, the talks held at a San Francisco hotel did not directly address the possibility of relocating the team, which was sold last year for US$193-million to a Nashville-based local group of investors, led by David Freeman.

However when an advisor to Mr. Del Biaggio, who was brought in to bid against Mr. Balsillie for the Predators last year, informed NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman of the discussions, sources say the 40-year-old investor was discouraged from proceeding with a deal. Mr. Del Biaggio and officials at the NHL were not available for comment yesterday. However, a source familiar with events said, "nobody would have discouraged anybody from selling their piece or making that an alternative."

There has always been a thought that Del Biaggio would have the option of buying out his fellow owners in Nashville if the problems the team faced during its near-upheaval continued. Tedesco confirms it: Del Biaggio, who she said is trying to get something out of his stake in the team before "he files for bankruptcy," has "a number of contractual rights that would have allowed him to buy out his co-partners' shares after two years if the team sustains cumulative losses of US$20-million or if it fails to maintain average attendance levels at 14,000 a game or more." The League, however, would not extend those rights to Balsillie, according to Tedesco's sources.

Fascinating stuff. It's a shame that the NHL has an enthusiastic potential owner with billions in CrackBerry profits ready to buy in, but only on the condition that he can have a team for his own backyard. Everybody Loves Pinball believes Balsillie will win and a Canadian team under his ownership will happen, and that this is "a war" Gary Bettman can't win. But what about all the ill-will he created amongst NHL owners with his egomaniacal, entitled behavior during the first Nashville mess? Anyone still have their Hamilton Predators season tickets?


Yeah, go Preds. And when they eventually relocate to Canada, you will be saying: "Bye Preds" :tup:

[Evergrey]

I'm not opposed to a Hamilton team (just don't move the Preds)... but Balsilly would be horrible for the NHL... he's an egomaniac and a loose cannon... he's like the NBA's Mark Cuban (Dallas Mavericks) on acid

[flar]

I don't know, I think the NHL owners need a shake-up. There's something wrong with the NHL lately. During the Bettman years it seems like they've shunned all the traditions that gave the NHL character. I used to be a huge hockey fan but I haven't followed it at all in the last few years.

[Evergrey]

I don't know, I think the NHL owners need a shake-up. There's something wrong with the NHL lately. During the Bettman years it seems like they've shunned all the traditions that gave the NHL character. I used to be a huge hockey fan but I haven't followed it at all in the last few years.

what traditions has Bettman shunned?

I do know he's developed some awesome new traditions.. like the AMP Energy Drink Winter Classic!

[ZiZiPop]

I do know he's developed some awesome new traditions.. like the AMP Energy Drink Winter Classic!

Do we really have to use the sponser when we refer to it. Just call it the Winter Classic. :irked:

I think that was a result from the success of the Heritage Classic.

[the dude]

i think balsillie would be great for the league - he's passionate, knowledgeable and loaded. compare his qualities to those of jacobs, wirtz or mlse for that matter. he'd shake things up and that's definitely a good thing.

despite what i've said, i'm not biased towards the southern franchises. if they're successful, draw decent crowds, make a few bucks, then fine. but if they're dragging the league down financially and aiding in watering down the on-ice product then they gotta go. sounds harsh but hey, was there ever demand for teams in southern florida, georgia, south carolina, etc? nope, just owners wanting to fill an arena 41 nights a year. they're false hockey markets.

i'd prefer the league have 20-25 teams. relocate to winnipeg, quebec, hamilton and yes, perhaps milwaukee, cleveland, seattle, portland or even cincinnati, if there's interest. bigger isn't better...at least in this case.

[Evergrey]

Would Halifax be a viable NHL market?

[Sebastien Gauthier]

@ Evergrey

Would Halifax be a viable NHL market?

There is certainly a lot of die hard hockey fans in Halifax but let's be realistic it's population is 350,000 and their economy is not very strong even though it has improved a lot during the last 10 years or so. A team from the Canadian Football League would be a better fit for a city like Halifax I think.

[Berklon]

But what about all the ill-will he created amongst NHL owners with his egomaniacal, entitled behavior during the first Nashville mess? Anyone still have their Hamilton Predators season tickets?

Ill-will? If the owners were so pissed at JB then why did 8 or 9 teams contact him about buying all or part of their team?

Balsilie would be great for the NHL. He's a smart businessman with very deep pockets and a knowledge and love for the game. Essentially everything that Gary Buttman isn't. The NHL can't avoid Canada forever. There is money to be made here - and it makes no sense to turn it down in favor of losing 30 million in the US sunbelt.

As for other traditional-hockey cities markets not selling out due to their teams sucking - why does the NFL sell out even when teams stink? The Jets suck as usual, they sell out. Detroit Lions always suck - but they always sell out. Every team cant win - some teams have to be crappy, but they should still have good attendance... that's what makes them a hockey market.

Dallas is another team in trouble. Over the last 5 years they've lost about 5,000 season ticket sales. This is from a team that won a cup only 8 seasons ago and have been one of the better teams in the league since.

Nashville still only gets 14,000 average attendance even though they were close to losing their team. How many of those tickets were sold and not given away free or at cut-throat prices? Many US sunbelt teams have been basically giving away tickets.

Get hockey out of the sunbelt. Seattle would be a decent choice for a team and maybe Portland, but the NHL needs to do what's right and fill the overwhelming demand for teams in Canada first.

And sorry, hockey fans don't refer to the sport as "ice hockey". Also I notice that the NHL threads are always posted in the Canadian section of this forum but noone ever creates one in the US section. And in these threads there's only a few Americans posting to it. I've got no problems with anyone participating in a hockey thread - but it's obvious why it's geared heavily towards Canadian participation.

[Rico Rommheim]

Would Halifax be a viable NHL market?

No. Canada doesn't have enough big cities.

Lets see where other teams could be placed:

Hamilton - in the middle of Canada's most densely populated area, city itself is almost 700 000. Extremely viable and I hope they do it, I'm sure people over there are tired of routing for a shitty team.

Quebec - Quebec city metro may only be 700 000 but has a greater region of about a 1,000 000 or so. Plus these people would LOVE to get their team back, problem is that its largely a government city lacking in big $ companies, incentives and rich individuals.

Winnipeg - the smallest of the small markets, could milk about 800 000 people tops, it lacks the money, corporate support and as much as I love their new arena, the MTS centre is just too darn small.

Sakatchewan - ok so the whole province has a 1,000 000 people but something could be worked out like an arena between Regina and Saskatoon maybe? no?

somewhere else in the BC lower mainland? Maybe not now but in few decades that place might have the market necessary? no?

That's pretty much it.

[Markus41]

No. Canada doesn't have enough big cities.

Lets see where other teams could be placed:

Hamilton - in the middle of Canada's most densely populated area, city itself is almost 700 000. Extremely viable and I hope they do it, I'm sure people over there are tired of routing for a shitty team.

Quebec - Quebec city metro may only be 700 000 but has a greater region of about a 1,000 000 or so. Plus these people would LOVE to get their team back, problem is that its largely a government city lacking in big $ companies, incentives and rich individuals.

Winnipeg - the smallest of the small markets, could milk about 800 000 people tops, it lacks the money, corporate support and as much as I love their new arena, the MTS centre is just too darn small.

Sakatchewan - ok so the whole province has a 1,000 000 people but something could be worked out like an arena between Regina and Saskatoon maybe? no?

somewhere else in the BC lower mainland? Maybe not now but in few decades that place might have the market necessary? no?

That's pretty much it.

Once again, just to point out, there is no lack of money in the city (very much a myth); as mentioned before seating arrangments can be worked out plus sellouts at the arena of just over 15000 would bring in enough revenue to keep the team viable.

And you think Saskatchewan is more viable? Please :haha:

[Rico Rommheim]

And you think Saskatchewan is more viable? Please :haha:

wow wow wow hold on there!

There is no chance in lucifer's eternal HELL that saskatchewan is ever gonna get one. I was just illustrating how small it is to find other viable markets! :haha:

[Evergrey]

Ill-will? If the owners were so pissed at JB then why did 8 or 9 teams contact him about buying all or part of their team?

Balsilie would be great for the NHL. He's a smart businessman with very deep pockets and a knowledge and love for the game. Essentially everything that Gary Buttman isn't. The NHL can't avoid Canada forever. There is money to be made here - and it makes no sense to turn it down in favor of losing 30 million in the US sunbelt.

As for other traditional-hockey cities markets not selling out due to their teams sucking - why does the NFL sell out even when teams stink? The Jets suck as usual, they sell out. Detroit Lions always suck - but they always sell out. Every team cant win - some teams have to be crappy, but they should still have good attendance... that's what makes them a hockey market.

Dallas is another team in trouble. Over the last 5 years they've lost about 5,000 season ticket sales. This is from a team that won a cup only 8 seasons ago and have been one of the better teams in the league since.

Nashville still only gets 14,000 average attendance even though they were close to losing their team. How many of those tickets were sold and not given away free or at cut-throat prices? Many US sunbelt teams have been basically giving away tickets.

Get hockey out of the sunbelt. Seattle would be a decent choice for a team and maybe Portland, but the NHL needs to do what's right and fill the overwhelming demand for teams in Canada first.

And sorry, hockey fans don't refer to the sport as "ice hockey". Also I notice that the NHL threads are always posted in the Canadian section of this forum but noone ever creates one in the US section. And in these threads there's only a few Americans posting to it. I've got no problems with anyone participating in a hockey thread - but it's obvious why it's geared heavily towards Canadian participation.

your hyper-nationalism is annoying and really detracts from the discussion

1. NFL games are easy to sell out because a team only gets EIGHT home dates a season!

2. NOBODY posts anything in the "United States" subforum.

3. It's really lame that you have to attack someone for using the term "ice hockey

[Greco Roman]

^ To be fair, you have a pretty strong American Nationalist tone in your writing yourself, so I don't think it's fair to come to a Canadian forum and tell us we can't be patriotic to our country when you, as an American, do the same thing. :)

[kool maudit]

i have never detected anything of an american nationalist tone to evergrey's posts.

[cornholio]

Oh come on everyone, Winipeg and Quebec city will never have NHL teams and if Hamilton gets one(which is very very very unlikely) then it will be a absolute miracle, and I still confident that it wont get a team. Its great to dream and I agree I would love to see teams in those markets but it wont happen, to think it will is just dumb. People, be a bit more realistic, think of the situation from a business perspective.

[ZiZiPop]

think of the situation from a business perspective.

Somebody tell that to Bettman! He tries to keep teams in markets that constantly lose money. How a team like phoenix loses 600 million since moving from Winnipeg and hasn't folded really makes me wonder.:shrug:

[someone123]

Would Halifax be a viable NHL market?

I hate to always be the cheerleader and to be honest I don't really care about the NHL but I think relatively few people in the rest of Canada have a reasonable idea of what the Maritimes are like and they tend to regularly underestimate the region. Mainly I suspect this is because the Atlantic provinces serve a weird psychological function as a kind of whipping boy for the rest of Canada, like the South does in the US. Of course, there are no slaves picking cotton anymore and Newfoundland is actually sending money to Ottawa, but those are minor details.

Anyway, Halifax is small but often functions as a regional city for a relatively small area (by Canadian standards) with over 2 million people. In this respect it's comparable to a mid-sized city like Edmonton, even though fewer people live in the actual city.

It's really really hard for me to imagine a scenario where Halifax would have an NHL team and people wouldn't bother driving 2-3 hours to see games when right now they are flying to Toronto or Montreal.

The big obstacle is the construction of the arena.

[kool maudit]

I hate to always be the cheerleader



i think you actually are going a bit far here. i grew up in halifax, and was just back last week. it's a small city - too small for the nhl.

[flar]

Any Canadian markets except Hamilton, Winnipeg and Quebec are way too small. Hamilton plus the municipalities that directly border it adds up to over 2.3 million. Beyond that you have Mississauga and most of Toronto within an hour's drive. Winnipeg and Quebec are pushing the lower limit in market size, but I'm sure they could support teams with NHL's current economics.

[Evergrey]

Any Canadian markets except Hamilton, Winnipeg and Quebec are way too small. Hamilton plus the municipalities that directly border it adds up to over 2.3 million. Beyond that you have Mississauga and most of Toronto within an hour's drive. Winnipeg and Quebec are pushing the lower limit in market size, but I'm sure they could support teams with NHL's current economics.

Do the Sabres have a following in So. Ontario?

[flar]

^^yes, I think Buffalo would be hurt slightly by a Hamilton team, but they would survive. It would be a great rivalry too.There are a lot of hockey fans to go around in Southern Ontario.

[Andy6]

I hate to always be the cheerleader and to be honest I don't really care about the NHL but I think relatively few people in the rest of Canada have a reasonable idea of what the Maritimes are like and they tend to regularly underestimate the region. Mainly I suspect this is because the Atlantic provinces serve a weird psychological function as a kind of whipping boy for the rest of Canada, like the South does in the US. Of course, there are no slaves picking cotton anymore and Newfoundland is actually sending money to Ottawa, but those are minor details.

Anyway, Halifax is small but often functions as a regional city for a relatively small area (by Canadian standards) with over 2 million people. In this respect it's comparable to a mid-sized city like Edmonton, even though fewer people live in the actual city.

It's really really hard for me to imagine a scenario where Halifax would have an NHL team and people wouldn't bother driving 2-3 hours to see games when right now they are flying to Toronto or Montreal.

The big obstacle is the construction of the arena.

It would probably be the corporate support that would be the problem. You need to have a lot of money sloshing around to buy luxury boxes and high-priced tickets in the stands. I doubt that either Halifax or Winnipeg could sustain the NHL on its current economics. The CFL would be a realistic possibility for Halifax, if it could get a stadium built.

[someone123]

i think you actually are going a bit far here. i grew up in halifax, and was just back last week. it's a small city - too small for the nhl.

I agree but this was not the point of my post.

I find professional sports distasteful in general and really boring to watch so I should probably just avoid these threads.

[Evergrey]

more evidence that the NHL is flourishing in the U.S.:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_571591.html

The Penguins have played before 67 consecutive sellouts at Mellon Arena. Game 6 of the Cup final was on 54 percent of locally turned-on televisions and rated the most watched NHL game in the United States since 1995, according to Neilsen Media Research. Their merchandise is top-selling, according to the league.

[dtgeek]

It is worth pointing out here that some teams in the southern part of the U.S. like Dallas, San Jose, Anaheim, Los Angeles and even Tampa are doing quite well and are highly unlikely to be candidates for relocation any time soon.

San Jose is not in the "southern US". It is in NORTHERN California, and is at approximately the same latitude as St. Louis and Washington DC.

[Greco Roman]

San Jose is not in the "southern US". It is in NORTHERN California, and is at approximately the same latitude as St. Louis and Washington DC.

Perhaps, but is California as a whole not considered as part of the US Southwest? For the most part, they lump states/provinces into certain geographic areas, but to my knowledge they don't divide up the jurisdictions themselves. For example, the US Pacific Northwest consists of Oregon, Washington and Idaho (to my knowledge) and does not include "Northern California".

[kirjtc2]

The "southwest US" usually refers to Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and the states around there. California's a region unto itself apparently. :)

[rousseau]

Do the Sabres have a following in So. Ontario?
Not much, from what I've been told. All of my hockey-mad relatives live in St. Catharines, and are die-hard Leafs fans. I asked them once if there was much interest in the Sabres on the Canadian side of the border and got an emphatically negative reply. The impression they gave was that cheaper/available tickets and a shorter drive were the only reasons for going to Buffalo for a game.

By contrast, my sense is that support for Detroit sports teams begins somewhere around London Ontario and grows progressively stronger the closer you get to Windsor. I wonder if there are any Leafs fans in Windsor at all?

[flar]

^^Yes, you're right that there aren't a lot of huge Sabres fans in Ontario, but I've read somewhere that 5-10% of the attendance at Buffalo games are Canadians. There really are a lot of Detroit fans in Southwestern Ontario, I guess part of the explanation is that Detroit media has a huge influence down there in SW Ontario but Buffalo's media can't compete with Toronto's in Central Ontario.