[Dmajackson]

This idea has been tossed around every so often on a few threads so i think its time we had a thread to truly discuss this idea. What, if any, streets do you think should be pedestrian only in Downtown. Some explaniations of why and any other possible purposes are greatly appreciated. I did not include Hollis or Water because they are vital transportation links and the Cogswell Interchange make it almost impossible to close these. Here are the ones i voted for and why:

Granville - The north side of this street is already pedestrian only, it is one way and not an important transportation road. Also it connects Grand Parade, the shops on the north, province house, and Maritime Centre.

Bedford Row - It is narrow, used for deliveries, brick layed, and is only two blocks long.

Salter Street - Its only three blocks long and would be a great connector from the Barrington Street shops to the new development on the waterfront.

[someone123]

To be honest in most cases I don't see the point. There's very little pedestrian traffic on Salter, for example. Maybe in another few years if more development happens that will change, but I still doubt it will be enough to significantly warrant changing over the street.

Granville works well because it really doesn't go anywhere, and because the buildings at the northern end are so nice. Really that block is more of a public square than a pedestrianized street - it doesn't actually serve as a path to anything. The southern end of Granville is not very inviting and if converted in the same way I doubt it would be as successful. Unfortunately the MetroPark really cheapens the whole area. Building something like that was a mistake you can blame some of the councillors for.

Streets like Barrington need the vehicular traffic. I could see widening the sidewalks a bit and getting rid of some of the parking, but at any rate there are definitely plans to overhaul the street. We'll see what happens eventually.

[Dmajackson]

Granville works well because it really doesn't go anywhere, and because the buildings at the northern end are so nice. Really that block is more of a public square than a pedestrianized street - it doesn't actually serve as a path to anything. The southern end of Granville is not very inviting and if converted in the same way I doubt it would be as successful. Unfortunately the MetroPark really cheapens the whole area. Building something like that was a mistake you can blame some of the councillors for.

Streets like Barrington need the vehicular traffic. I could see widening the sidewalks a bit and getting rid of some of the parking, but at any rate there are definitely plans to overhaul the street. We'll see what happens eventually.

If memory serves MetroPark is at the base of Blowers Street so if Granville was to become pedestrian only all we would have to do is keep that connection open. But that block is still cheap. Hopefully if UG is built this section will look better.

Yes i agree the four main north-south connectors need to keep traffic flowing; Hollis, Water, Barrington and Brunswick. At its current use Barrington should be narrowed, simply by no parking, to allow wider sidewalks. Its possible to just allow buses on between Sackville and Duke as well. But widening the sidewalks should come first.

[Takeo]

I can't imagine why anyone would vote for Salter St. It's a steep hill with nothing to offer but the Customs parking lot, the stone wall of Salters Gate, the Metro Park, that horrid hotel (blank concrete wall)... etc. Heck... the only street level retail in that whole 3 block section is Cabin Coffee! And I guess the Chopin Bistro.

The most obvious street to block off... if you were going to do this... would be Argyle between Blowers and Sackville and Sackville and Prince. Maybe just for the patio season. That would be pretty awesome.

[hfx_chris]

I threw my vote behind Granville and Argyle.

Argyle is a one-way, non thoroughfare with a lot of patios. It makes perfect sense, and it would help to integrate Grand Parade with both the establishments along Argyle and the WTCC/Metro Centre.
Granville because part of the work is already done, and it's also not a thoroughfare. Due to the location of MetroPark, it would make sense to only close Granville as far as Blowers to maintain access to the parkade. Plus there may be an option somewhere there to integrate Granville with Province House, although it is quite a grade difference... at the very least, they could create some sort of public space right off the back stops of Province House, which would make a great place for the public to gather and socialize, or do some good old fashioned protesting.

[spaustin]

Generally I think eliminating cars completely is a bad idea. Pedestrian only streets work in just a few unique instances. Stephen Avenue in Calgary is one example that comes to mind. A successful pedestrian street needs to offer something unique. Granville Street has the potential but it doesn't really go anywhere. About the only one on the list that makes any sense at all is Argyle. With all the patios, bars and restaurants it would do just fine as a pedestrian only and it's not like there is much car traffic on it. In fact it may do even better as patios would be able to expand.

[Dmajackson]

Someday in the future i can imagine there only being 7 streets ( 4N-S, 3W-E)for cars to drive down; Sackville, Hollis, Water, Duke/Rainnie, Barrington, Brunswick, and SGR. In realistic terms if streets were to be closed off they should do it in phases.

Phase I - Bedford Row, Argyle and Granville.
Phase II - Grafton and Market.
Phase III - Blowers, Carmichael, George, Prince, Salter and Albemarle (unless connected with North End).

Of course phase III streets really dont matter to me if they're converted. As long as Phase I is done i'll be happy.

http://halifax.ca/Film/GranvilleMall5.jpg
(Source: http://halifax.ca/Film/GranvilleMall5.jpg)
Granville Street Mall located between Duke and the Cogswell Street Interchange.

[hfx_chris]

Albemarle. I was trying to remember that name the other day.
I don't know why they couldn't have picked a normal name when they renamed that section of Market. Or better yet, left things as they were.

[someone123]

Albemarle was the original name of Market Street. They simply reverted it back.

I agree that Argyle would be a pretty good street to convert over, although a lot of improvements could be made to the existing streetscape without officially changing the status of the street in any way.

[reddog794]

My only question is, just cars? Buses can still run down those streets still, yes?

[Takeo]

My only question is, just cars? Buses can still run down those streets still, yes?

I hope not. I'd be ok with a small electric tram.... but keep the big, ugly, stinky, perpetually idling buses away. In any case... as others (and myself) have said... I think Argyle is the only street that makes sense anyway... making the bus question moot.

[hfx_chris]

I think it would be a safety hazard to have buses running on what would essentially become a sidewalk.

...but keep the big, ugly, stinky, perpetually idling buses away.
Okay, now comments like this just piss me off. Big? Well of course they're large, they carry a lot of passengers. Ugly? I think not. Stinky? If you're referring to the buses themselves, then that argument makes no sense. If you're referring to the exhaust, everything with an internal combustion engine has exhaust and fumes, why pick buses out? Perpetually idling? Not when there's no driver in it, they switch the engine off, and if there is a driver chances are they're picking up passengers. It would make no sense to stop the engine every time you're at a bus stop or traffic light.
This is exactly the kind of bs that keeps people away from transit, they get it in their mind that all buses are some huge mechanical beast that are all old, smelly, dirty and spew black smoke onto the sidewalks which only poor people take, then we have more cars and people wonder why. The whole attitude towards public transit, and our public transit system right now primarily consists of buses, has to change. People have to get over these preconceptions and misconceptions or whatever they are and realize buses are not the nuisance they want to believe they are.

Sorry for the rant, but that's one thing that makes my blood boil...

[Takeo]

I was comparing busses to electric options like streetcars (which I know is completely unrealistic for Halifax... but this whole thread is theoretical anyway). Streetcars are smaller. Streetcars don't give off any fumes. And they don't "idle".

I use the bus. I have no problem with the bus. But if Argyle were to be blocked off... I don't think I'd be the only one unhappy about having them drive within a few meters of whatever outdoor patio I'm sitting at. No one likes diesel fumes with their meal.

And that's what I was talking about when I was talking about smell... diesel fumes. And of course I don't expect buses to shut off at lights and bus stops. But they DO perpetually idle!!! I walk by busses almost every day that are "Out Of Service" and they are ALWAYS idling. Sometimes three or four in a row... in front of the sewage treatment plant. I have seen this year round... not just in winter. I walk this route almost every day to work (when I don't take the bus... or drive) and in two years of walking past that spot... I have seen ONE "Out Of Service" bus that had it's engine turned off. ONE!! And half the time... the driver isn't even in the bus!!!!! Or they are napping in the back! They DO idle needlessly. All the time. With and without drivers. And if they do it in this location, I'm sure they must do it all over metro. Metro Transit really needs to put an idling policy in place. You'd think that with the price of gas, they would want the drivers to turn the busses off when they are just sitting there, empty, "Out Of Service" doing nothing.

Okay, now comments like this just piss me off. Big? Well of course they're large, they carry a lot of passengers. Ugly? I think not. Stinky? If you're referring to the buses themselves, then that argument makes no sense. If you're referring to the exhaust, everything with an internal combustion engine has exhaust and fumes, why pick buses out? Perpetually idling? Not when there's no driver in it, they switch the engine off, and if there is a driver chances are they're picking up passengers. It would make no sense to stop the engine every time you're at a bus stop or traffic light.
This is exactly the kind of bs that keeps people away from transit, they get it in their mind that all buses are some huge mechanical beast that are all old, smelly, dirty and spew black smoke onto the sidewalks which only poor people take, then we have more cars and people wonder why. The whole attitude towards public transit, and our public transit system right now primarily consists of buses, has to change. People have to get over these preconceptions and misconceptions or whatever they are and realize buses are not the nuisance they want to believe they are.

Sorry for the rant, but that's one thing that makes my blood boil...

[Dmajackson]

My only question is, just cars? Buses can still run down those streets still, yes?

It all depends on the streets that are closed off. Side streets like Argyle or Granville buses wouldn't be allowed but theoretically if lets say Barrington Street was closed then yes if theres a safe way for them to cooperate with pedestrians. As for other neccessities like deliveries for restaurants they could be limited to only early mornings or other quiet times.

[hfx_chris]

Sometimes three or four in a row... in front of the sewage treatment plant.
They're not supposed to be doing that. I believe there is an idling policy for extended layovers, however most of the layovers at that location outside of rush hour are no more than 5 or 6 minutes. Of course rush hour you've got a couple spares usually on standby at that location, and they are supposed to be off.
I'll seek confirmation, but as far as I knew there was a policy on idling in place.

[Takeo]

They're not supposed to be doing that. I believe there is an idling policy for extended layovers, however most of the layovers at that location outside of rush hour are no more than 5 or 6 minutes. Of course rush hour you've got a couple spares usually on standby at that location, and they are supposed to be off.
I'll seek confirmation, but as far as I knew there was a policy on idling in place.

You would think... right? I've been meaning to check into that for some time actually. It's rather aggravating. Not only is it wasteful... but it's not pleasant having to walk past 2-3 buses every morning (and evening) and breathe in their fumes. One bus isn't so bad... but with 3 (which is typical at that location)... I can't help but breathe the fumes every day. I keep wanting to talk to the drivers about it... i.e... "how come you guys always leave your buses running here when you're out of service?"... but I'm not sure what kind of reception I would get. LOL :P When I first started walking this route to work a couple of years ago... it was winter... so I figured they only did it in winter... to stay warm. But nope... they do it year round.

But we're getting way off topic.

p.s... Of course... my rant (which then inspired your rant) was a direct result of this idling pet peeve of mine. Those idling buses every day make ME hot under the collar. LOL. So... my apologies.

[Jonovision]

I think Argyle is the only viable option at the moment. No other street has that kind of street life to it.

I have to agree about the buses and the idling. I see it all the time and it gets me extremely frustrated. Scotia Square, DAl, around Sportsplex. I see buses idling all over the city. Even if they are at a terminal for more then a minute they should be turning their engines off. It would save a lot on fuel in the long run.

[Dmajackson]

Well the votes are coming in and it looks like most people like Argyle Street, then Granville and Bedford Row. I guess when i made up the phases list i guessed correctly. Most everyone would love too see Argyle converted but for a trial i think Bedford Row may be a better starting point. Eventhough its not very popular walking spot its short, already brick-layed and could be a good connector for the restaurants/pubs on it. If this wasnt chosen for a trial then Argyle should be next.

[Takeo]

I didn't even think of Bedford Row... but I have to say... that one little block (Great Wall, Ryan Duffys, Triangle, etc.) is my favorite street in the city. It's so tiny... but so great. The wide sidewalks. The trees. The nice heritage buildings. Awesome. Too bad we didn't have more of that :-(

[hfx_chris]

Even if they are at a terminal for more then a minute they should be turning their engines off. It would save a lot on fuel in the long run.
No, with those engines that would be a huge amount of wear and tear and probably cost a lot more in the long run. Large diesel engines unfortunately aren't quite the same as the 4 cylinder in your car.

Bedford Row would be interesting.. although the art gallery has their loading doors along Bedford Row, but some sort of accommodation could be made for that. The block in front of the Triangle, Great Wall etc would be a great place to walk, and the other block could be turned into some form of outdoor meeting and socializing space with some nice benches, artwork, maybe a fountain - basically a continuation of the Art Gallery's courtyard next door. Of course, once the wooden hoarding is gone from in front of the Dominion Public Building's tower project.

[Dmajackson]

Bedford Row would be interesting.. although the art gallery has their loading doors along Bedford Row, but some sort of accommodation could be made for that. The block in front of the Triangle, Great Wall etc would be a great place to walk, and the other block could be turned into some form of outdoor meeting and socializing space with some nice benches, artwork, maybe a fountain - basically a continuation of the Art Gallery's courtyard next door. Of course, once the wooden hoarding is gone from in front of the Dominion Public Building's tower project.

That would be a great idea. I'm pretty sure the art gallery doesn't have very frequent deliveries. Once an exhibition's up it usually stays for awhile so deliveries could easily be scheduled for certain times.

[reddog794]

The main reason for my question, is anytime I think of pedestrian focused streets I think of Oxford in London, where no cars are allowed, but buses, and taxis. I figure why not just electric buses, if not hydrogen buses. because then you could turn the whole street into a bus stop pretty much without fear of stopping traffic around you.

I chose Argyle, Granville, Blowers, and Salters, as to have 2 going N-S and 2 going E-W.