[Calgarian]

Sorry for another OT thread, but since this is a huge story today I figured some people may want to comment on it. I am looking forward to Harper's Apology as this is still one of the darkest chapters in our history.

[Canadian Mind]

wasn't this apologised for and paid off about a million times already?

[Calgarian]

This is the first official apology by the Federal Govt.

[Calgarian]

After listening to Harpers apology, I am moved by both his words and some of the reactions that native people are having to this. This is an important moment in our history, and the beginning of a long healing process that I hope will result in the improvement of the lives of the first inhabitants of this country.

[Wooster]

It's an extremely important move. I'm glad the Federal Government finally made a formal apology. These symbolic moves really do matter. I thought Harper struck the right tone with his words.

[Rico Rommheim]

decent apology. Good its done. That doesn't negate the fact that many of our aboriginal friends still live in decrepit 3rd world situations.

[Sebastien Gauthier]

Kudos to PM Harper for delivering an overdue heartfelt apology. Mr. Harper acted like a true stateman today. That's very refresing after having had to endure Chretien embarrassing us on a daily basis for a decade. Why has it taken so long to Canada to recognize the facts? Above all, good for the natives. Justice hasn't been done but hopefully this apology will bring them some solace and hopefulle things like that will never haapen again.

[240glt]

Kudos to Harper for delivering a long overdue appology and acknowledging the grave mistakes that were made.

The catholic church should probably step up as well, as they're the ones who perpetrated the abuses within the schools. Doubt that'll happen though, given the churchs' penchant for ignoring and covering up atrocities like that.

[ReginaGuy]

If the catholic church began appologizing to everyone for the horrible things its done, they'd never get anything done, they'd just be appologizing all the time!

[cranium]

While the Federal Governments apology was necessary, I cannot help feeling cynical about what this really means. " Now the government can proceed with its healing package", as one media account had it today. Healing package? I hope that I am out of line in thinking that this is just the begining of eternal financial restitution on tax payers behalf.

[Kevin_foster]

The United Church of Canada formally apologized in 1986

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/05/16/f-timeline-residential-schools.html

edit: and the catholic and anglican churches were involved too; but no apologies from the catholic church to date..

[Kevin_foster]

While the Federal Governments apology was necessary, I cannot help feeling cynical about what this really means. " Now the government can proceed with its healing package", as one media account had it today. Healing package? I hope that I am out of line in thinking that this is just the begining of eternal financial restitution on tax payers behalf.

$125,000,000 I believe...

[Greco Roman]

Will the natives start to apologize to other native tribes for all the violence and deaths that they have bestowed on their own people before the arrival of Europeans? I think there needs to be some apologies for this as well.

[Rico Rommheim]

Will the natives start to apologize to other native tribes for all the violence and deaths that they have bestowed on their own people before the arrival of Europeans? I think there needs to be some apologies for this as well.

they didn't try to exterminate each other, nor did they consider other tribes to be sub-humans in need to be "civilized", completely wrong and insulting statement.

[Calgarian]

Will the natives start to apologize to other native tribes for all the violence and deaths that they have bestowed on their own people before the arrival of Europeans? I think there needs to be some apologies for this as well.

You can't be serious.

[cranium]

$125,000,000 I believe.

The number on the news tonight is $2,000,000,000 in addition to the creation of a permanent reconciliation commission, that like the gun registrary, will likley cost a bill or two more than promised. I fear that we can never be sorry enough.

[Rico Rommheim]

The number on the news tonight is $2,000,000,000 in addition to the creation of a permanent reconciliation commission, that like the gun registrary, will likley cost a bill or two more than promised. I fear that we can never be sorry enough.

That commission will cost 60 000 000. boo-hoo big deal.

[crooked rain]

^ but that is almost $2 per person. Stop federal largesse now!

[socialisthorde]

You can't be serious.

Oh, he or she is all too serious. You might want to check out post history. Seems to have a reall stick in his/her craw.

[Greco Roman]

Oh, he or she is all too serious. You might want to check out post history. Seems to have a reall stick in his/her craw.

My point, which I now realize I should have made more clear, is that people have been violent to eachother for years, regardless of race; it really is human nature. And even when all the apologies and land claims are done, there will always be demand for more compensation. It's a vicious circle with no end.

[Rico Rommheim]

My point, which I now realize I should have made more clear, is that people have been violent to eachother for years, regardless of race; it really is human nature. And even when all the apologies and land claims are done, there will always be demand for more compensation. It's a vicious circle with no end.

the apology statement was not compensation, it was human compassion. It was caring for one another. Nothing wrong with that.

[SpongeG]

great day indeed

sad to see so many people still harbour ignorant/racist views towards natives though

[SHOFEAR]

sorry for taking away your teepee and allowing you to raise a family in a house where you don't have to worry about the climate, sorry for giving you a grocery store every couple of blocks so your family won't starve if food is nowhere to be found, sorry for introducing those pesky cars, I'm sure walking around or canoeing was so much more efficient.


sad to see so many people still harbour ignorant/racist views towards natives though


Yes, the bend over backwards and hurl on all blame on the whiteman theory. It's worked so well this last generation. Lets just keep saying sorry and acting like a money tree and assume all the blame and guilt and all the problems will go away.

That my friend, is exactly why this problem has gotten worse, not better. You can't solve anything when only one side gets the blame. Even worse, you can't even discuss it without being labelled a racist.

[Rico Rommheim]

sorry for taking away your teepee and allowing you to raise a family in a house where you don't have to worry about the climate, sorry for giving you a grocery store every couple of blocks so your family won't starve if food is nowhere to be found, sorry for introducing those pesky cars, I'm sure walking around or canoeing was so much more efficient.

Yes, the bend over backwards and hurl on all blame on the whiteman theory. It's worked so well this last generation. Lets just keep saying sorry and acting like a money tree and assume all the blame and guilt and all the problems will go away.

That my friend, is exactly why this problem has gotten worse, not better. You can't solve anything when only one side gets the blame. Even worse, you can't even discuss it without being labelled a racist.

well you're just a little racist, aren't you buddy? If you aren't then you need to improve your perspective...and manners, buddy. Or take a history course. Fucking shameful that post.

[socialisthorde]

This is going downhill...fast.

[SHOFEAR]

Racist= I'm not going to hire that guy because he is a indian.

Not racist= There are some serious problems here and the only way it's going to get better is if both sides admit to their wrongs and new solutions are looked for.

[Rico Rommheim]

Racist= I'm not going to hire that guy because he is a indian.

Not racist= There are some serious problems here and the only way it's going to get better is if both sides admit to their wrongs and new solutions are looked for.

let me quote you: sorry for taking away your teepee and allowing you to raise a family in a house where you don't have to worry about the climate, sorry for giving you a grocery store every couple of blocks so your family won't starve if food is nowhere to be found, sorry for introducing those pesky cars, I'm sure walking around or canoeing was so much more efficient.

Ok, I believe you, you're not a racist, but that post was bigoted, it was. Also, it was bitter and insulting.

[SHOFEAR]

got your attention though. maybe forced you to read the rest of my post a few times and think about it.

[ZiZiPop]

got your attention though. maybe forced you to read the rest of my post a few times and think about it.

Although I sorta understand what you were trying to say. It doesn't apply here.

[Rico Rommheim]

got your attention though. maybe forced you to read the rest of my post a few times and think about it.

Although I agree with your thesis, that we can't just fix everything with an apology and blind subsidies, I STRONGLY disagree with your opening line and personally feel a great deal of sorrow for the native Canadian history, which after the european arrival has been marked with cultural and actual genocide, degradation, sub-humanization and a general decline in quality of life. The way inuits live up there or any native down here for example is categorically unfair and unworthy of western standards. And you can't blame it all on them, that's for damn sure. That's just one example.

[The Chemist]

sorry for taking away your teepee and allowing you to raise a family in a house where you don't have to worry about the climate, sorry for giving you a grocery store every couple of blocks so your family won't starve if food is nowhere to be found, sorry for introducing those pesky cars, I'm sure walking around or canoeing was so much more efficient.


Somebody's been reading too much Rudyard Kipling lately...:rolleyes:

The White Man's Burden
Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

[Greco Roman]

Although I agree with your thesis, that we can't just fix everything with an apology and blind subsidies, I STRONGLY disagree with your opening line and personally feel a great deal of sorrow for the native Canadian history, which after the european arrival has been marked with cultural and actual genocide, degradation, sub-humanization and a general decline in quality of life. The way inuits live up there or any native down here for example is categorically unfair and unworthy of western standards. And you can't blame it all on them, that's for damn sure. That's just one example.

For the record, I AM glad there was an apology made as it was well deserving. But what I'm getting as is will this, as well as financial and territorial compensation be enough to forgive and move on, or will be forced into a continuous line of apologies and financial compensation? In other words, can we REALLY move on?

[SHOFEAR]

Although I agree with your thesis, that we can't just fix everything with an apology and blind subsidies, I STRONGLY disagree with your opening line and personally feel a great deal of sorrow for the native Canadian history, which after the european arrival has been marked with cultural and actual genocide, degradation, sub-humanization and a general decline in quality of life. The way inuits live up there or any native down here for example is categorically unfair and unworthy of western standards. And you can't blame it all on them, that's for damn sure. That's just one example.

I certainly wouldn't disagree with you.

What I always find very interesting is why natives in the states, especially those in western states like Arizona and nearby aren't facing the same problems many do here, especially out west. At least from an outsiders perspective.

I'm sure most would agree that the states has had a much more brutal history when it comes to "conquering" and racism.

[Calgarian]

sorry for taking away your teepee and allowing you to raise a family in a house where you don't have to worry about the climate, sorry for giving you a grocery store every couple of blocks so your family won't starve if food is nowhere to be found, sorry for introducing those pesky cars, I'm sure walking around or canoeing was so much more efficient.





Yes, the bend over backwards and hurl on all blame on the whiteman theory. It's worked so well this last generation. Lets just keep saying sorry and acting like a money tree and assume all the blame and guilt and all the problems will go away.

That my friend, is exactly why this problem has gotten worse, not better. You can't solve anything when only one side gets the blame. Even worse, you can't even discuss it without being labelled a racist.

I just lost a lot of respect for you. This chapter in our history is nothing short of genocide, and making assenine statements will not change that.

[Greco Roman]

Oh, he or she is all too serious. You might want to check out post history. Seems to have a reall stick in his/her craw.

You know nothing about me. Period.

[socialisthorde]

You know nothing about me. Period.

Nothing but what you say in your posts. I did not comment on who you are, but on the apparent anger about this issue in your posts. Nothing personal. it was rude of me to refer to you in the third person, and I apologize for that.

[socialisthorde]

For the record, I AM glad there was an apology made as it was well deserving. But what I'm getting as is will this, as well as financial and territorial compensation be enough to forgive and move on, or will be forced into a continuous line of apologies and financial compensation? In other words, can we REALLY move on?

Who was forced? The majority agreed this was the right thing to do and as far as I can tell, Mr. Harper was not being held at gunpoint. It was done out of respect and recognition of past wrongs. Any compensation will be paid for the same reason. We all seem to agree that compensation alone will not solve the problem, but that doesn't mean it is not part of the solution.

[vid]

My great grandmother was in a residential school. She was beaten for speaking her own language. Like the other students, she was required to tend the gardens and keep the schools clean, while in the same era, those would have been the teachers responsibilities, or students would at least have gotten some form of compensation. In many cases, the students were required to do what amounts to slave labour for the church. That doesn't mean all students went through this, but many did. Most residential school students have died.

Nothing we do will make up for taking their land and decimating their cultures, but this is a start. However, for the most part, this is an apology from someone who did nothing to people who were not significantly effected by what that man was apologizing for.

I think that fostering their culture instead of trying to replace it, and helping them to bring themselves out of poverty is much better than "I'm sorry, here is $50,000 to make it better". The apology is a necessary step but just handing out large sums of money isn't going to do much good for anyone.

[spiritedenergy]

great day indeed

sad to see so many people still harbour ignorant/racist views towards natives though

so true. some of those who made such comments should be sent to residentials schools and when they get out after 15 years of sexual and physical abuse maybe they'll have a different opinion.

[edzed]

File this under, waste of my tax money / Not Important at all.

[wild wild west]

I don't have any faith whatsoever in the "throw money at the problem" approach to aboriginal issues which seems to have been the Federal government's approach in the past, however a heartfelt apology doesn't cost a cent and creates the opportunity to help some wounds heal and hopefully, is an important step in building a greater understanding between aboriginal and non-aboriginal Canadians. Is there really anything to lose?

[Boreal]

I think Vid has really hit the nail on the head.

[Rico Rommheim]

File this under, waste of my tax money / Not Important at all.

Stephen harper delivering a 15 minute speech in the House cost you tax dollars???

[Sebastien Gauthier]

While I think the Canadian government has made a honorable gesture toward the aboriginals, I find it rather disturbing that everytime the question of the independance of Quebec is discussed, some people in English-Canada seem to have very serious concerns about the fate and how the natives would be treated in a sovereign Quebec. Of course, it's some anti-Quebec extremists using the natives as a pawn in thier war against Quebec emancipation, they don't care at all about the natives. But they have the nerve to tell Quebec nationalists that they don't trust them to treat natives with dignity and fairness while at the same time the gvmt of Canada is forced to apologize for horrors (like the residential school) that happened under its watch and the jails of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta are disproportionately crowded with aboriginals. In Quebec we treat with the natives on a nation to nation basis. As a minority people, we share and understand the natives concerns about the survival of their culture, language and heritage. There's no doubt in my mind that when Quebec finally becomes a country, the natives will have a significant role to play in our country. We'll do everything we can to help them prosper and to preserve their culture.

[MolsonExport]

^hey, maybe even let them have their own country! That would be truly nation-to-nation.

The only person bringing in the whole sovereign Quebec issue into this thread is you.

Kudos to PM Harper for delivering an overdue heartfelt apology. Mr. Harper acted like a true stateman today. (...)Why has it taken so long to Canada to recognize the facts? Above all, good for the natives. Justice hasn't been done but hopefully this apology will bring them some solace and hopefulle things like that will never haapen again.

^You and I are in agreement here.

[socialisthorde]

File this under, waste of my tax money / Not Important at all.

I would, but the folder is already full of oil and gas subsidies, auto industry subsidies, farm subsidies etc.

[MolsonExport]

I just lost a lot of respect for you. This chapter in our history is nothing short of genocide, and making assenine statements will not change that.

here, here.

[Rico Rommheim]

While I think the Canadian government has made a honorable gesture toward the aboriginals, I find it rather disturbing that everytime the question of the independance of Quebec is discussed, some people in English-Canada seem to have very serious concerns about the fate and how the natives would be treated in a sovereign Quebec. Of course, it's some anti-Quebec extremists using the natives as a pawn in thier war against Quebec emancipation, they don't care at all about the natives. But they have the nerve to tell Quebec nationalists that they don't trust them to treat natives with dignity and fairness while at the same time the gvmt of Canada is forced to apologize for horrors (like the residential school) that happened under its watch and the jails of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta are disproportionately crowded with aboriginals. In Quebec we treat with the natives on a nation to nation basis. As a minority people, we share and understand the natives concerns about the survival of their culture, language and heritage. There's no doubt in my mind that when Quebec finally becomes a country, the natives will have a significant role to play in our country. We'll do everything we can to help them prosper and to preserve their culture.

No no. Just who invited you to come here and blabber about Quebec "emancipation"? We're talking about the residential school apology here.

[Sebastien Gauthier]

@ Rico Rommheim,

I'm not blabbring about Quebec emancipation Rico. And I'm not bashing Canada as I love Canada even if I'm a sovereigntist. Indeed even if idiots like Jean Chretien would like you to believe that a Quebec sovereigntist = someone who hates Canada, that is simply not true. All I'm saying is that we should learn from our past actions and make sure not to repeat the mistakes of the past. With regards to aboriginals the Quebec gvmt during the Duplessis era was not exactly clean either, I recognize it. But the major culprit ultimately is the federal gvmt who has created a system of reserves for the natives and the most important abuses have been committed in area of its jurisdictions. Just read the Indian act of Canada to convince yourself, this is a colonialist and racist act. Period.

[Migs]

decent apology. Good its done. That doesn't negate the fact that many of our aboriginal friends still live in decrepit 3rd world situations.
When does self-responsibility weigh in? Perhaps if they mowed their lawn, picked up after themselves, and didn't throw things through windows, then their properties wouldn't be like 3rd world situations. Can't go through life blaming others for your own shortcomings. Like the great Chief Louie from Osoyoos BC said, "If your life sucks, its because you suck"

That said, great speech by Harper yesterday, its was a longtime coming.

[Greco Roman]

When does self-responsibility weigh in? Perhaps if they mowed their lawn, picked up after themselves, and didn't throw things through windows, then their properties wouldn't be like 3rd world situations. Can't go through life blaming others for your own shortcomings. Like the great Chief Louie from Osoyoos BC said, "If your life sucks, its because you suck"

That said, great speech by Harper yesterday, its was a longtime coming.

Very well put :tup:

But then again, with a comment like this you might be viewed as a racist.

[Sebastien Gauthier]

Migs said:

When does self-responsibility weigh in? Perhaps if they mowed their lawn, picked up after themselves, and didn't throw things through windows, then their properties wouldn't be like 3rd world situations. Can't go through life blaming others for your own shortcomings. Like the great Chief Louie from Osoyoos BC said, "If your life sucks, its because you suck"

What you said is true in some cases but don't paint all the aboriginals with the same brush. I think you forget that many natives live in very isolated and remote communities. Many don't even have electricity. Many don't have access to doctors and other health professionals. Among these communities, there is raging alcoholism, substance abuse, sexual abuse and suicide problems. They're really facing an uphill battle. I think you should have a bit more compassion.

[socialisthorde]

^The function of stereotypes is to avoid having to think.

[Rico Rommheim]

Very well put :tup:

But then again, with a comment like this you might be viewed as a racist.

No, with a comment like that is very true and appropriate. this is on the other hand is: sorry for taking away your teepee and allowing you to raise a family in a house where you don't have to worry about the climate, sorry for giving you a grocery store every couple of blocks so your family won't starve if food is nowhere to be found, sorry for introducing those pesky cars, I'm sure walking around or canoeing was so much more efficient.

[Calgarian]

When does self-responsibility weigh in? Perhaps if they mowed their lawn, picked up after themselves, and didn't throw things through windows, then their properties wouldn't be like 3rd world situations. Can't go through life blaming others for your own shortcomings. Like the great Chief Louie from Osoyoos BC said, "If your life sucks, its because you suck"

That said, great speech by Harper yesterday, its was a longtime coming.

A lot of what you said is a direct result of the way these people have been treated for the last few hundred years. I agree there should be more accountability amongst native communities for their current situation, but we still need to help them get over the abuses they suffered at the hands of the rest of Canada. When you are taken from your family at such a young age, abused and assaulted in every context of the word, and told that your culture is primitive and is something to be ashamed of, that leaves you feeling inadequate and hollow and the results are evident through the current state of Natives people. We are to blame for the most part, but it's time for them to help themselves instead of just waiting for handouts. I don't support the large settlements that former students are getting as there have been many well documented cases of people using it to drown their problems in Alcohol, there have even been a couple reported cases of people drinking themselves to death.

[elsonic]

coincidence, I saw the documentary «Le peuple invisible» (wich is quite shaking) last week, and learned a lot about the stolen land and the cultural genocide - occured differently, with similar results, on both sides of the Ottawa river.

I think the real question is 'Now what?' there is so much to do.

quick question : I don't get this governement. while refusing to sign an international agreement on indigenous peoples, there's this speech all over our local medias...

[Andy6]

What you said is true in some cases but don't paint all the aboriginals with the same brush. I think you forget that many natives live in very isolated and remote communities. Many don't even have electricity. Many don't have access to doctors and other health professionals. Among these communities, there is raging alcoholism, substance abuse, sexual abuse and suicide problems. They're really facing an uphill battle. I think you should have a bit more compassion.

But of course if we take them out of these communities and try to educate them for the modern world, it's "cultural genocide".

[socialisthorde]

But of course if we take them out of these communities and try to educate them for the modern world, it's "cultural genocide".

So you see only two options? Leave them to rot in substandard conditions or take them out and educate them for the modern world. This is a complex situation with many contributing factors. There are myriad options as to how to handle it, with each being appropriate in some circumstances. As hard as some of you are trying this cannot be reduced to a black and white issue. Interesting that both the option you mention (educate them) and the one you respond to (leave them as is), involve doing something to or for them. Isn't that how we got into this situation?

[Calgarian]

But of course if we take them out of these communities and try to educate them for the modern world, it's "cultural genocide".

It's only genocide if you punish them for speaking their language, force them to adopt "christian names", and tell them their culture is sub human and punish them for doing anything different than what the rest of the country does.

It amazes me how many people have prejudice and uninformed views on Aboriginal Canadians. Read a damn book, or learn some history before making retarded statements like these.

[vid]

On the issue of how Quebec treats its aboriginal people, one should note that Quebec is the only province that doesn't have a widespread problem of aboriginal poverty. They don't have a Davis Inlet or Pikangikum. They're doing quite well.

The problem in English Canada seems to be "They're a federal matter, we don't care" on behalf of the province and a "Communities are provincial responsibilities. We aren't going to do anything to alleviate this issue" on the Feds part. Both of them have to smarten up. This is an issue that involves BOTH of them.

The reserve system is a large part of the problem. It isn't just their lack of taking care of themselves, it's a universal malaise brought about by their living conditions, which are a result of many factors, one of which being our lack of investment in decent living standards and adequate services.

These people do not have schools. (A provincial/upper municipal responsibility; see previous paragraph.)

These people do not have hospitals or clinics. (Also provincial. See upper paragraph.)

They do not have adequate police and fire protection services. (in the case of reserves, this responsibility is typically carried out by the treaty organization. Nishnawbe-aski Nation in Northern Ontario has a police force as large as Thunder Bay's, but operates on a smaller budget, in a much larger area. Their holding cells and lack of toiletries would likely constitute a violation of human rights. Their funding comes from the federal level. Of NAPS's 35 detachments, only one meets today's building codes.)

These people do not have adequate housing. (They lack materials. The first nations and reserve band councils will build many houses and give their relatives first pick; as many as 25 people may live in some houses, and they usually don't have modern conveniences like plumbing.)

These people do not have a reliable supply of electricity. (Many reserves operate on diesel generators. The generator in Rankin Inlet malfunctioned and as a result, all of their water pipes froze. The entire community had to be evacuated. The repair of this community cost millions of dollars.)

These people do not have a reliable supply of drinking water. (One example: A few years ago Kashechewan's water supply was contaminated. The people in charge of maintaining it lacked training and put too much chlorine into the water to treat the problem, poisoning their community.)

Their communities are not located in the right places. (Another example using Kashechewan: The elders of the communities said that the town had to be built uphill, and that its water plant should be upstream from its sewage treatment facility. The federal government ignored this, building the community on the banks of the river, which made it prone to flooding, and put the sewage plant upstream from their water intake pipe; as a result, their sewage flows into their drinking water.)

A lot of these problems are a result of isolation but with modern technology and education they are ALL preventable. The government is too afraid to put a large investment in solving these problems however, and opts for the cheaper short term solutions. However, the amount of problems created by not doing things properly in the first place has, in the long run, cost much more than doing things right ever would. Doing things right, especially this late in the game, will cost a lot of money, but it would be worth it because a lot of these problems would be solved.

Aboriginal people didn't have these problems before we came here. Obviously they are the result of something we have done. We have to work with them to fix these problems. Obviously aboriginal people have to take some responsibility--they know this, and they are trying--but they're in so deep in many cases that is it too overwhelming. They NEED assistance. As a first world nation that holds human rights in the highest regard, who are we to deny it?

[Cambridgite]

Yes, the bend over backwards and hurl on all blame on the whiteman theory. It's worked so well this last generation. Lets just keep saying sorry and acting like a money tree and assume all the blame and guilt and all the problems will go away.

That my friend, is exactly why this problem has gotten worse, not better. You can't solve anything when only one side gets the blame. Even worse, you can't even discuss it without being labelled a racist.

Well, I'll admit your rant applies to many situations, but IMO, not this one. Natives had no choice in whether or not they wanted their culture destroyed. Even a "thinly veiled racist" like myself knows what happened to them was wrong. Does this mean Canadian society at large is responsible for what happened to the Natives and all us White folk should wallow in guilt? Of course not. But the Canadian government was involved in residential schools and all sorts of atrocities, and therefore it is appropriate that the government apologizes for something that happened merely a generation ago.

Hey, it'd be great if Europeans stayed in Europe and didn't colonize anyone else's homelands, but it's a little late for that now. We have a moral obligation to the Native tribes we displaced. IMO, this doesn't mean forking out money endlessly. I think we should give them a good chunk of this country and let them self govern themselves, where 'the White man' cannot meddle in their affairs. That, or they can choose to live in modern-day Canada and integrate without any special handouts.

[Andy6]

It's only genocide if you punish them for speaking their language, force them to adopt "christian names", and tell them their culture is sub human and punish them for doing anything different than what the rest of the country does.

I'm not sure that that's true, though. Other ethnic groups that weren't punished for speaking their language quickly lost it anyway when they came to Canada and went to public schools. They also lost much of "their" culture and even changed their names in many cases. So even in the absence of the practices you mention, bringing native students into contact with the broader world through education is likely to result in cultural and language loss. That is the dilemma. They can either be like any other ethnic group and end up largely assimilated with only (at most) a folkloric "culture" left or they can remain on the sidelines with their traditional culture more intact. A century ago it was just assumed that, like other peoples before them, they were destined to follow the first path into the enlightened modern world (enlightenment and modernity not being the property of any culture in particular but a promise held out equally to all men). The residential schools, and even most of the cultural "abuses" we now deplore, were intended to help that process along, for their benefit. The results weren't great in many cases, I agree.

[oilsmack99]

Liberals started the schools, ran them, and refused to apologize for them afterwards. Liberals keep natives down by not teaching hard work at self reliance.

Keep them addicted to the public teat and uselessness. I don't really care. To those who are called racist or ignorant, just remember, pain is a teacher. We just need to keep our mouths shut and let more liberal stupidity harm native people, by their own choice, and wait for the pain to get bad enough that they clue in.

See, I agree 100% with Mr. Pollivere, it was just a tactical mistake to say it at that time, and strategically stupid to say it at all with the media being as leftist as they are right now. They will try to paint all conservatives as racist just like some of the filth on this board do.

It may take 20 years to get to the point where the right is strong enough in media and other Ottawa institutions to do battle over this and many other topics. Lie in wait, today is not the day, maybe next week eh.

[Cambridgite]

Other ethnic groups that weren't punished for speaking their language quickly lost it anyway when they came to Canada and went to public schools. They also lost much of "their" culture and even changed their names in many cases.

There's a big difference between Natives and immigrant groups. When immigrants come to this country, they KNEW (or at least they should) that they will have to assimilate in many ways to prepare themselves for modern Canada. If they lose their culture, it's their fault for deciding to emigrate to another country. With the Natives, the point remains, that they did not have a choice. That's what was wrong about it.

[Cambridgite]

Liberals started the schools, ran them, and refused to apologize for them afterwards. Liberals keep natives down by not teaching hard work at self reliance.

Keep them addicted to the public teat and uselessness. I don't really care. To those who are called racist or ignorant, just remember, pain is a teacher. We just need to keep our mouths shut and let more liberal stupidity harm native people, by their own choice, and wait for the pain to get bad enough that they clue in.

:yes:

There's a saying. "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll never go hungry." Well...just giving fish away everyday doesn't really teach self reliance, does it now?

[Andy6]

There's a big difference between Natives and immigrant groups. When immigrants come to this country, they KNEW (or at least they should) that they will have to assimilate in many ways to prepare themselves for modern Canada. If they lose their culture, it's their fault for deciding to emigrate to another country. With the Natives, the point remains, that they did not have a choice. That's what was wrong about it.

You've missed my point. The argument I was presented with was that giving people a modern education results in "cultural genocide" only where they are not allowed to speak their language, etc., and my response was that the immigrant experience suggests that this is not so: even residential schools lacking the harsh measures complained of would likely have caused natives to lose their culture, just as public schools caused immigrants to lose theirs(despite the absence, generally speaking, of any prohibition against speaking their language etc.)

Is there really a lot of evidence that native parents objected to having their children sent to be educated? I'm sure they usually weren't given much choice, but I've heard mostly stories about how unhappy the children were when they got to the schools rather than of how it was decided who would go to the schools. I would guess that the parents were deferential and not inclined to object to anything the government told them was necessary, but I don't know.

[Sebastien Gauthier]

@ Vid,

You have by far the best post of the entire thread. Congrats!!!

[socialisthorde]

It may take 20 years to get to the point where the right is strong enough in media and other Ottawa institutions to do battle over this and many other topics.

Don't hold your breath. Or maybe do ;)

[vid]

Liberals started the schools, ran them, and refused to apologize for them afterwards. Liberals keep natives down by not teaching hard work at self reliance.

Hard work and self reliance are ingrained into the aboriginal culture that the schools worked so hard to wipe out.

Keep them addicted to the public teat and uselessness. I don't really care. To those who are called racist or ignorant, just remember, pain is a teacher. We just need to keep our mouths shut and let more liberal stupidity harm native people, by their own choice, and wait for the pain to get bad enough that they clue in.

The Kelowna Accord, an agreement under Paul Martin's Liberal government, was supposed to help change this, and the Conservative government ended that, brining in absolutely no replacement. The Conservative party is just as useless as every other government, save Martin's, when it comes to trying to alleviate these issues. An apology is great, but words aren't as effective as action when it comes to solving problems. Your comment of not caring shows that you are ignorant by choice. In ancient Greece, those who did not keep informed about major issues or help improve society were called idiots.

It may take 20 years to get to the point where the right is strong enough in media and other Ottawa institutions to do battle over this and many other topics. Lie in wait, today is not the day, maybe next week eh.

Battle over what? If reality is against you it doesn't make you a victim, it makes you wrong, and changing history after the fact isn't changing anything.

In regards to education of aboriginal peoples altering or 'cleansing' their culture, this is why we need an education system that supports aboriginal cultures. Aboriginal history, language and traditions should be part of Canada's history, language and traditions. Education for aboriginal people should be sensitive to their culture. They had a way to educate themselves before Europeans came to Canada, we should bring that back in our education system to teach them their history, language and culture. (They also had a good way of handling disputes which we should consider incorporating into our legal system, as it does a much better job at making all sides understand and correct their errors.)

In essence, bring back residential schools, but instead of having the church turn them into 'civilized white people', let aboriginals educate themselves about their culture. This can be done! The Nishnawbe-Aski Nation operates several schools which have aboriginal culture as the centrepiece of their curriculum, and they're turning out successful students. If we put more effort into funding and providing a high quality education by and for aboriginals with their culture as part of the curriculum, we will see much more success than we do today, and their culture will be stronger. They will have an identity, and they will be proud of themselves, which will beget more self-respect, and as a result, make them more self-reliant--while actually achieving something positive in the process!!

Similar methods can be done with the medical system. Aboriginal students are learning medicine at the Northern Ontario School of Medicine, a hospital based on aboriginal traditions is being built in Sioux Lookout, and many smaller clinics run by and for aboriginals using many aboriginal teachings as well as modern health care techniques exist across the country. We have to make aboriginals a part of Canada, not just a group of people who live in it.

However, aboriginal people have to realize that, for the most part, their days of hunting and fishing and living off the land in wigwams is over now. Their culture has to come into the 21st century, it has to modernize. Their language, history and cultures can modernize with it. Nothing stays the same forever but that doesn't mean we have to abandon everything that makes us 'us'. Everyone has to move forward, and we can help each other to do that.

@socialisthorde: With that comment, you bring yourself down to his level. I would suggest you not make those comments anymore. They add nothing to our discussion.

[socialisthorde]

^^^ Actually, I thought that one was pretty light hearted and I have taken worse. I guess, I should take an anger management refresher :) Anyway, I apologize if I offended anyone. This is a particularly sensitive topic for me and I have seen the damage that words like I have been hearing here can do. I do get tired of trying to address this issue rationally, only to be called "politically correct" or "liberal" with a sneer. You may have noticed on another similar thread the number of times rational arguments were met with eye rolling. That is insulting. Anyway, i do think your approach offers more hope for change, so I will control myself.

[oilsmack99]

Not caring has nothing to do with ignorance, a mistake liberals make every single time. I don't bow down to the great government titty that will save all, and that burns leftists, so they take on a superior tone and make themselves feel better by insulting my intelligence. I keep myself informed through numerous sources from around the world, and from many different ideological points of view.

Those schools were more liberal and progressive social monkey business, as were the treaties that came before them. Natives came here, we came here, the end. The reserve system, the indian act, being tax free, hell, the crown should all be abolished for a new Republic. The disgusting Senate can go in the trash bin as well.

We disagree on what makes for a prosperous and just society, and that is fine. A smart mouth takes it beyond political rangling and into a question of personal honour and priveledge. I challenge you to a duel sir.

[socialisthorde]

[QUOTE=oilsmack99;3618204]
Those schools were more liberal and progressive social monkey business, as were the treaties that came before them. Natives came here, we came here, the end. The reserve system, the indian act, being tax free, hell, the crown should all be abolished for a new Republic. The disgusting Senate can go in the trash bin as well.
QUOTE]

I will agree to the formation of your new libertarian Rpublic, on one condition; Everything gained by anyone under the current corrupt liberal regime must be returned and equally distributed, so that we can all begin on the same footing. Let me know when you are ready to start.

[MolsonExport]

Natives came here, we came here, the end.

Wow. That has got to be the most cut-and-dry statement on this thread. The silent sweep of 300 years of racist history under the rug is positively deafening.

It brings to mind a quote from "American History X":

We're so hung up on this notion that we have some obligation to help the struggling black man, you know. Cut him some slack until he can overcome these historical injustices. It's crap. I mean, Christ, Lincoln freed the slaves, like, what? 130 years ago. How long does it take to get your act together?

[vid]

I honestly can't think of a fitting reply to this. One person is saying stupid things and someone is "one-upping" him with more stupidity. Why bother?

The reason dictatorships are better is because they actually accomplish things. Democracies, especially representative democracies like ours, rarely ever do, because everyone has to be pleased with the action and its result.

Arguing on the internet is stupid. It's why I don't do it anymore. Some posts in this thread definitely back me up on that. By the way, using words you don't fully understand usually makes you look foolish.

[socialisthorde]

Vid,

Not sure whose replies you are referring to, but I respect your opinions and style of presentation, so I will clarify. My response was simply intended to highlight that the libertarian ideal of everyman for himself, as represented in oilsmack's post (and generally implied by most people taking that stance) can very well be argued to represent a fair and just system, but it would only be so if everyone starts off on exactly the same footing, and there is no way for that to happen at this point, particularly with regard to First Nations. I don't believe I misused words and I am not sure in what regard my post might be considered "stupid".

[vid]

I was referring mainly to oilsmack.

[elsonic]

some comments here remind me of the worse from the «accomodements raisonnables» public debate here in Qc.

I'm happy in some way, I was so ashamed of my own nation - province.

now we need to realise that we destroy(ed) the Natives and that the survivers need help and respect.