[miketoronto]

I was reading a little editorial the other day concerning Canada's cities and provinces selling off government agencies like hydro companies.
Basically Canadians have enjoyed some of the best services like Hyrdo and cheapest prices due to government run corportations operating these services as not for profit, eventhough most of these government corporations do make a tiny profit.

The lattest trend is for cities and provinces to sell off these corporations to make money, and leave these services in the hands of for profit companies.
This is how the US operates, and they have some of the highest power rates and lowest service levels, etc.

Mississauga is the lattest city that is thinking of selling their power utility so they can make a lump some profit, instead of the profits they make each year from the power utility.

Ontario has also let go of services like Ontario Hydro, which has basically been a total failure.

What are your views on this matter?
Canada really took the lead in the 60's and even eariler(Ontario Hyrdo started in the early 1900's) by establishing public corporations to provide services like Hydro to Canadians.

Do you agree private corporations should be able to buy these corporations that public tax dollars built?
Do you think Canada is losing what it stood for by allowing private corporations to come in?

Overall what is your view?
Is this going to be a move we do and than regret like the Ontario Hydro sellout?

[feepa]

Edmonton sold of ED/TEL to TELUS, and put the money into an endowment fund that gives the city a few million a year extra in its coffers. ED/TEL was great, TELUS sucks
Edmonton also still has its power corporation, but it acts at a distance. Edmonton is the majority share holder in EPCOR, but allows it to operate at arms length, as EPCOR is quickly expanding across Western Canada and parts of the USA

[mersar]

Enmax is using a similar model in Calgary as Epcor, in which they split for former electric services unit into a wholly owned subsidaiary. The city receives a nice dividend payment each year (guaranteed to be 30 million or 30% of profits, whichever is higher, and in recent years they've actually returned more then the 30%), a chunk of the money goes into a special parks fund for building and improvements to city parks and the rest into the general accounts.

[Architype]

It's probably a mistake, but did you know that a Newfoundland company now owns Terasen Gas since 2007 (formerly BC Gas)? Most people don't know how complicated all this is becoming.
Much of Terasen Inc. — the utility formerly known as BC Gas — looks to be returning to Canadian ownership following news that its U.S. owner has sold the natural gas part of the business to Newfoundland-based power producer Fortis Inc

This is just the latest acquisition for Fortis, which also owns 18 hotels. The company, which trades on the Toronto Stock Exchange, was founded in the 1980s as the parent company of Newfoundland Power, the primary distributor of energy in Newfoundland and Labrador. It now owns 12 hydroelectric generating stations in North America.
www.cbc.ca/money/story/2007/02/26/terasen.html

[O-Town Hockey]

I always find this subject interesting when I visit my relatives in Saskatchewan. Everything there is provincially run including cable TV, cell phones, gas, hydro, car/house insurance, bus travel, alcohol, gambling, and, of course, medical care. When you watch TV or listen to the radio every second commercial is some "Yay Saskatchewan" commercial or a public service announcement about fetal alcohol syndrome, drinking and driving, or gambling addiction. I know it's not all that different from the rest of Canada, but the socialist roots of Saskatchewan society are still quite obvious even today. Must be easy to pay your bills though, just write out one giant cheque to Brad Wall (premier).

http://www.3dbullriding.com/images/sasktel_lg.gifhttp://www.canscaip.org/graphics/phsponsors/saskenergy.jpghttp://www.fcpp.org/images/publications/SGILogo1.gifhttp://www.nrcan.gc.ca/es/etb/cetc/combustion/co2network/images/sask_power_logo.gifhttp://www.suma.org/images/%7BCEAFBF3F-0945-4FF7-95C0-EDA7BADDC1B9%7DSaskWater.jpghttp://www.gradworks.ca/images/stc.gif

[miketoronto]

I did not know that Sask had their own intercity bus company. I had just throught Greyhound handled those routes.

[1ajs]

winnipeg sold winnipeg hydro to manitoba hydro witch resulted in the construction of our newest office tower
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/2573928509_f5e2e704b4_o.jpg


MTS was sold at 25$ a share if i'm not mistaken
winnipegs gas company was sold to manitoba hydro................

[Doug]

It's probably a mistake, but did you know that a Newfoundland company now owns Terasen Gas since 2007 (formerly BC Gas)? Most people don't know how complicated all this is becoming.

www.cbc.ca/money/story/2007/02/26/terasen.html

Fortis is publicly traded and widely held - i.e. not owned by a government.

[vid]

Kenora sold their telephone service to Bell for $27M, which works out to over $1,600 per man woman and child in the community. If we use a similar number for TBayTel, it would be worth more than $175M. It brings in over $20M in profits for the city annually. I don't really want to see it be sold off because we'd lose 5% of our budget, but the dispute between them and Shaw has had almost no benefits for consumers and it has been something of a predator at other municipal phone systems in the Northwest and I sometimes think that maybe it would be better if it was privatized as its actions reflect poorly on the city. When it was announced that Kenora was selling KMTS, TBayTel said they would pay $30M for it, but KMTS said they would not consider it. Within days, TBayTel tried to buy DMTS in Dryden. TBayTel has also bought every single small start up cell phone carrier and ISP in the north, from Sault Ste. Marie to Kenora.

[ReginaGuy]

I did not know that Sask had their own intercity bus company. I had just throught Greyhound handled those routes.

STC is needed for the smaller towns. Greyhound connects all the major cities in Saskatchewan, but STC provides service to hundreds of tiny communities that are not likely very profitable.

It's one crown corp I can agree with. Never anything wrong with mass-transit!

[wild wild west]

I'm fine with Public crowns as long as they truly have the public interest at heart. There are instances where they have resulted in lower costs for consumers (such as auto insurance, electricity, etc.) but I can also think of instances where they have been TERRIBLE for consumers:

-Sasktel prevented competition in the local and long distance telephone markets for years, so that Saskatchewan residents paid high prices for those services. Since the province's telephone market has been opened to competition, prices have gone down because Sasktel has been forced to be competitive or lose business. The same thing happened years before when Bell lost its monopoly on long distance service in Ontario.

-The LCBO. What the F? Inconvenient operating hours, higher prices and an inadequate number of stores to serve the population. And why the hell can't I buy my beer and liquor at the same store?

[WhipperSnapper]

The LCBO. What the F? Inconvenient operating hours, higher prices and an inadequate number of stores to serve the population. And why the hell can't I buy my beer and liquor at the same store?

Sorry, but I wouldn't trade a little inconvenience, possibly higher prices just to be able to buy cheap booze or piss water at a grocery/variety store. Of course this is my Toronto prespective where beer can be bought at many LCBOs, hours are good, and if in a pinch can always walk to the few blocks closer grocery store to pick up a nice bottle of wine.

On the other hand, The sale of Toronto Hydro has been pretty good for the cash strapped, free spending city ... can never have enough solid gold consultants, eh?

[wild wild west]

Sorry, but I wouldn't trade a little inconvenience, possibly higher prices just to be able to buy cheap booze or piss water at a grocery/variety store. Of course this is my Toronto prespective where beer can be bought at many LCBOs, hours are good, and if in a pinch can always walk to the few blocks closer grocery store to pick up a nice bottle of wine.

What about being able to walk 5 minutes to a liquor store, even in the burbs, with better prices, that's open til 2 am 7 days a week?

[MolsonExport]

I hate the LCBO. Moreover, I especially hate the "Beer Store" (World's most asinine concept, with retarded layout, and utterly ridiculous opening hours...yeah, closes at 6pm most nights...who the hell buys beer at 10:45am on a weekday anyhow?).

I really miss the convenience (and lower prices) of being able to buy beer in grocery/convenience stores (Quebec). My only complaint about the Quebec system is that the wines that are available in grocery/convenience stores are not drinkable.

[wild wild west]

I hate the LCBO. Moreover, I especially hate the "Beer Store" (World's most asinine concept, with retarded layout, and utterly ridiculous opening hours...yeah, closes at 6pm most nights...who the hell buys beer at 10:45am on a weekday anyhow?).

No doubt! I spent a week in Ottawa last summer, and could not BELIEVE that the beer store nearby (that is, the one within the shortest driving distance) closed at 9 pm! Having lived elsewhere so long, I had forgotten how ridiculously challenging it can be to buy booze in Ontario. Is there any other city of 1.3 million in the freaking World in which buying booze after 9 is such a challenge? (By the way, that is a rhetorical question, I do not expect anyone to actually answer that).

[MolsonExport]

^Riyadh, perhaps :D

[93JC]

My opinion on the privatization of public companies is that it depends. It depends on how you go about it.

As an example of a poorly executed privatization, take Telus. Telus was originally Alberta Government Telephones (AGT). AGT had a government-sanctioned monopoly of the telephony market; local, long distance, you name it they ran it.

In the mid-'90s AGT was privatized and the new Telus entity inherited everything AGT had, including the monopoly. Guess what? Service went down and prices went up almost overnight. Telus had no competition, therefore they squeezed every penny possible out of us. Albertans still by and large don't have much choice in telephone services, which was the reason AGT was privatized to begin with.

Government can go ahead and privatize many of the public companies they own and operate, but it needs to be done correctly. You can't give a private corporation the power of a public one.


On the other hand the privatization of the ALCB (Alberta Liquor Control Board) in 1993 worked very well. It wasn't really a privatization. The ALCB's assets were sold off piecemeal. One private company didn't swoop in and take over, it was spread out over many private investors.

Now there are three times as many liquor stores as there were 15 years ago, the variety of products and level of services has far exceeded the ALCB liquor stores, and prices haven't gone out of control because liquor stores are mostly mom-and-pop businesses and they compete with each other all the time; there are very few liquor store chains. Most chains are just extensions of grocery stores (Safeway & Co-op liquor stores are the only chains that spring to mind, actually).

There are services here that, despite my generally liberal bent, probably should have more government intervention. Automobile insurance is one industry that, to me, needs in more than any other. The industry is propped up by the government's law mandating everyone have insurance, giving the industry guaranteed customer demand thereby completely screwing up the supply-demand balance. In order for it to work properly there NEEDS to be more choice, particularly the choice of not buying it at all, just as it is in most other industries. The government took away that choice (as it really isn't feasible for people to be driving around sans insurance), and now we're being screwed because of it.

Similarly, health care is an industry which I see running rampant if completely controlled by the private sector. Demand for health services will never go down, so I think we need a measure of control by the government. At the same time, stuff like private MRI clinics are great and should be encouraged. As it stands our supply of MRI services is alarmingly small, and is subsequently very expensive. Imagine how much less expensive it would be if you could refuse to pay $800 for an MRI at one clinic and walk a few blocks to the closest competing MRI clinic and get another quote. The prices won't be anywhere near as high as $800 anymore, that's for damned sure...

[miketoronto]

The LCBO is great and gives Ontario the largest selection and buying power in the world when it comes to liquor :)

[wild wild west]

Oops - DP

[wild wild west]

The LCBO is great and gives Ontario the largest selection and buying power in the world when it comes to liquor :)

No, the LCBO sucks and deprives Ontarians of convenience and price competition when they buy their liquor.

Anyways, I more or less agree with 93C - there are certain services that I think most will agree should always be public, and just as privatization can be a good thing (as when Alberta privatized liquor sales) it can also be a bad thing.

[harls]

No doubt! I spent a week in Ottawa last summer, and could not BELIEVE that the beer store nearby (that is, the one within the shortest driving distance) closed at 9 pm! Having lived elsewhere so long, I had forgotten how ridiculously challenging it can be to buy booze in Ontario. Is there any other city of 1.3 million in the freaking World in which buying booze after 9 is such a challenge? (By the way, that is a rhetorical question, I do not expect anyone to actually answer that).


You should've driven across the river! :D most chain gas stations sell beer until 11, the deps until whenever they feel like it (my old neighbourhood depanneur in Hull would be open until 2 on weekends).

Also, Ontario is ridiculously expensive, unless you go for bargain crap like Lakeport or Laker or some other brand that smells like gymbag.

[wild wild west]

Yeah, I should have. Didn't even think of it at the time...buying beer at gas stations...how cool is that?:cheers:

[vid]

When the border guards were on strike, my grandpa bought tonnes of beer from a gas station just across the border in the Grand Portage Indian Reserve. He likes American beer because it's already watered down for him. :)

It's cheap there, though. In Grand Marais, the liquor store is attached to city hall. :cheers:

The LCBO does have significant buying power (one of the largest LCBOs, btw, is located in Thunder Bay, as well as one of Ontario's busiest beer stores.) and in rural areas, gas stations and corner stores can get licenses from the LCBO to sell alcohol (I think that's a Northern Ontario-only thing, though.). Also, there is a chain of non-LCBO wine stores located in Superstores, but their prices are about the same as LCBO and their selection is much, much smaller. LCBO offers a good selection though, considering their size. The floor area of our largest LCBO is greater than the lot size of most gas stations. (As are our beer stores; the one beside my doctors office is about twice the size of a Mac's.)

[lubicon]

There's advantages and disadvantages to both privatization and keeping the services public. In areas of small population or large geographical areas it may make sense to keep things public, but in larger areas it may make more sense to privatize, especially when it comes to utilities (phone, electricity, natural gas etc).

And just because something is public and 'sells' to the public for a cheap price, it does not necessarily make it a good deal for taxpayers. Ontario Hydro is a good example. Prices for electricity are capped (I think) so people think they are getting a great deal from the utility. Meanwhile the cost of generation may be much higher than what they are selling the power for, and there is also a huge capital debt for the corporation. Guess what, the taxpayer is ultimately responsible for that debt and making up the difference, so is it really that good a deal?

I'm more familiar with the 'Sask' everything brands since my wife's family is from Saskatchewan (naturally they all work for these crown corporations too). There always seems to be all this talk about the nice divedends these corporations make for their owner (the Saskatchewan government). But if the only customers these companies have is the taxpayers of Saskatchewan then doesn't that mean the money is just coming from them anyways? It's out of one pocket and right back into the other. I don't get it. To me if a crown corp is only serving the taxpayer (ie that is the only customer) and they are making huge profits doesn't it just mean they are charging too much for their services?

[WhipperSnapper]

What about being able to walk 5 minutes to a liquor store, even in the burbs, with better prices, that's open til 2 am 7 days a week?

I've been around and still prefer the LCBO and its selection over almost everywhere else in Canada. I can't say either that I've ever needed to buy booze at 2am on any day of the week. I don't really drink beer either ... drank too much of the real stuff in my teens. The diluted beer with sprite I had as a kid tastes better than the piss water you can buy at gas stations.

[wild wild west]

I've been around and still prefer the LCBO and its selection over almost everywhere else in Canada. I can't say either that I've ever needed to buy booze at 2am on any day of the week. I don't really drink beer either ... drank too much of the real stuff in my teens. The diluted beer with sprite I had as a kid tastes better than the piss water you can buy at gas stations.

Granted being open til 2 am is perhaps unnecessary, but after 9 (or after 5 on a Sunday)would be nice, as would having an appropriate number of locations to serve the population.

And last I bought beer at a gas station in Quebec, it tasted the same as the beer I buy at a liquor store here in Alberta, the stuff I bought at LCBO outlets when I lived in ON or the beer I pay double for at the offsale when I'm in Saskatchewan if it's after 5 pm.

[vid]

To me if a crown corp is only serving the taxpayer (ie that is the only customer) and they are making huge profits doesn't it just mean they are charging too much for their services?

The profits go to other things in the budget. TBayTel's 20 million dollar profits support everything from roads to city employees wages to social programmes. If we lost those profits taxes would go up at least 5% overall, and possibly higher.

The number they throw around is "a 1% increase per $1M in profits lost", but that was probably just a scare tactic from the city to get people against Shaw and protect its interests. TBayTel no longer has a monopoly though so their profits will probably go down. They are diversifying though, they will soon offer cable TV. Plans for IPTV were scrapped in 2006 or 2007. They also offer home security, they bought out Thunder Bay's branch of ADT or something and now control an almost majority of the security market here.

Likewise, with the LCBO, Beer Store and Ontario Lotteries and Gaming, their profits go to education and health care. If they were private, the government would have to raise taxes to make up the lost funds or cut spending. And we all know which is easier for the government to do. :rolleyes:

LCBOs here are open until 9:30 (one is open until 10) and Beer Stores are open until 10. I think the closing at 5pm on Sunday thing is some archaic law, but the 'independent' Wine stores in Superstore and A&P are open until 6 on Sunday. :) There are 10 alcohol retailers in Thunder Bay, spread out over everywhere except the far north end. How many do we need?

[LeftCoaster]

I like the way we do it here. We have BCL stores (An LCBO and a Beer store combined) that are open normal hours. Once those have closed cold beer and wine stores are open till about midnight for those of us late in getting organized. (Don't let the name fool you they sell booze at the cold beer and wine stores too).

The prices however... dont get me started on those.

[socialisthorde]

I'm more familiar with the 'Sask' everything brands since my wife's family is from Saskatchewan (naturally they all work for these crown corporations too). There always seems to be all this talk about the nice divedends these corporations make for their owner (the Saskatchewan government). But if the only customers these companies have is the taxpayers of Saskatchewan then doesn't that mean the money is just coming from them anyways? It's out of one pocket and right back into the other. I don't get it. To me if a crown corp is only serving the taxpayer (ie that is the only customer) and they are making huge profits doesn't it just mean they are charging too much for their services?

Except that in many cases they are charging the same or less than private companies or providing services a private company would not. In those cases, the customer (taxpayer) and the owner (taxpayer) both win. Crowns can also be an impetus to create or salvage industries which private companies with an emphasis on short term profit will not invest in. Later when they have demonstrated that they are viable, private companies will move in.

Don't forget that private companies make profits and pay dividends as well. Does that mean they are charging too much? The money we (taxpayers) pay to private companies also comes from us, but goes to who ever owns the company (shareholders could be us or could be Warren Buffet). I am not saying crowns are a panacea, and in some cases they are laughably incompetant and inneficient, but when they work, they can bring financial and particularly service benefits. Crowns can also diversify into other geographical regions (e.g. SGI sells insurance across Canada) in which case, they bring money back to the shareholders (taxpayers), which did not originally come from those shareholders.

[vid]

You can also apply Lubicon's statement to oil companies. Note, however, that the gas stations themselves are making almost no profits.

[miketoronto]

I think Hydro Quebec is a model government agency. Don't they make a ton of profit for Quebec by exporting extra power to the US?

[quobobo]

Likewise, with the LCBO, Beer Store and Ontario Lotteries and Gaming, their profits go to education and health care. If they were private, the government would have to raise taxes to make up the lost funds or cut spending. And we all know which is easier for the government to do. :rolleyes:

A liquor tax doesn't require a provincial monopoly on the sale of liquor, just like a tobacco tax doesn't require all tobacco products to be sold through government-owned smoke shops. It's already "taxed" at the provincial stores in the form of inflated prices, it's just less transparent.

[wild wild west]

Bottom line for me is, I have nothing against public ownership provided it actually delivers quality service and good value for consumers. Im many cases it does, but in many others it doesn't. I see no reason why it should mean higher prices and/or less convenience for consumers than the private sector would deliver.

[kool maudit]

liquor and beer should be available at neighbourhood stores 24 hours per day. anything else is neovictorian, weird, central-planning bullshit.

[wild wild west]

liquor and beer should be available at neighbourhood stores 24 hours per day. anything else is neovictorian, weird, central-planning bullshit.

Yup, I agree. Well, sort of. What I do agree with is that government should not have a monopoly on liquor sales, and should not restrict hours of operation of liquor outlets.

[SpongeG]

if the government service is being divided up to more private companies instead of just giving the private sector a monolopy and consumers have more choice and options than i guess its a better thing but to just hand over everything to a private sector operation leaving consumers with that only choise than its not really any better from the consumers point of view

[MolsonExport]

Anyone else hate the Ontario lotto ads that go:

Happiness is playing Bingo!


Happiness is playing Bingo? I feel very sad for those that find inner happiness by playing some scratch-and-lose Bingo. I see them in the Tim Hortons...with coin in hand, scratching, scratching...they don't strike me as being very happy.

[Doug]

The profits go to other things in the budget. TBayTel's 20 million dollar profits support everything from roads to city employees wages to social programmes. If we lost those profits taxes would go up at least 5% overall, and possibly higher.

The number they throw around is "a 1% increase per $1M in profits lost", but that was probably just a scare tactic from the city to get people against Shaw and protect its interests. TBayTel no longer has a monopoly though so their profits will probably go down. They are diversifying though, they will soon offer cable TV. Plans for IPTV were scrapped in 2006 or 2007. They also offer home security, they bought out Thunder Bay's branch of ADT or something and now control an almost majority of the security market here.

Likewise, with the LCBO, Beer Store and Ontario Lotteries and Gaming, their profits go to education and health care. If they were private, the government would have to raise taxes to make up the lost funds or cut spending. And we all know which is easier for the government to do. :rolleyes:

LCBOs here are open until 9:30 (one is open until 10) and Beer Stores are open until 10. I think the closing at 5pm on Sunday thing is some archaic law, but the 'independent' Wine stores in Superstore and A&P are open until 6 on Sunday. :) There are 10 alcohol retailers in Thunder Bay, spread out over everywhere except the far north end. How many do we need?


Does the retail end of LCBO make any money? I read an article in the now defunct Saturday Night magazine that did an in depth study into the LCBO and found that the retail operations break even at best. The Ontario government makes most of the money off excise taxes on alcholoic beverages. The same article also claimed that Alberta earned more off alchol sales than any other province because its privatized retail distribution is so much more efficient.

[Doug]

Yup, I agree. Well, sort of. What I do agree with is that government should not have a monopoly on liquor sales, and should not restrict hours of operation of liquor outlets.

When I lived in suburban Redmond, Washington there was a liquor store within walking distance that was open 24-7 that claimed to carry over 5,000 different kinds of wine alone. The same neighborhood strip mall also had a 24 hour grocery store and a couple of 24 hours restaurants. You wouldn't be able to find that anywhere in Canada, not even in a busy inner city area.

[lubicon]

The profits go to other things in the budget. TBayTel's 20 million dollar profits support everything from roads to city employees wages to social programmes. If we lost those profits taxes would go up at least 5% overall, and possibly higher.

The number they throw around is "a 1% increase per $1M in profits lost", but that was probably just a scare tactic from the city to get people against Shaw and protect its interests. TBayTel no longer has a monopoly though so their profits will probably go down. They are diversifying though, they will soon offer cable TV. Plans for IPTV were scrapped in 2006 or 2007. They also offer home security, they bought out Thunder Bay's branch of ADT or something and now control an almost majority of the security market here.

Likewise, with the LCBO, Beer Store and Ontario Lotteries and Gaming, their profits go to education and health care. If they were private, the government would have to raise taxes to make up the lost funds or cut spending. And we all know which is easier for the government to do. :rolleyes:

LCBOs here are open until 9:30 (one is open until 10) and Beer Stores are open until 10. I think the closing at 5pm on Sunday thing is some archaic law, but the 'independent' Wine stores in Superstore and A&P are open until 6 on Sunday. :) There are 10 alcohol retailers in Thunder Bay, spread out over everywhere except the far north end. How many do we need?

But my arguement is that the taxpayer is paying the same no matter which way you look at it. Higher taxes or higher payments to the crown corps. So how are the crown corps. any better?

I like the way we do it here. We have BCL stores (An LCBO and a Beer store combined) that are open normal hours. Once those have closed cold beer and wine stores are open till about midnight for those of us late in getting organized. (Don't let the name fool you they sell booze at the cold beer and wine stores too).

The prices however... dont get me started on those.

One thing I do like about the BC Liquor board is how small stores outside of larger centres can and do sell booze as a licenced seller. It allows people in small towns or long distances from government stores to buy at least a small selection of booze locally.

But I do hate how larger towns may only have one store (the government store) and it can be very difficult to find, especially if you are a tourist passing through town. And the hours of these stores simply suck. Closed Sundays and holidays so good luck buying anything on a long weekend. The store is closed 2 out of the 3 days.

[lubicon]

I think Hydro Quebec is a model government agency. Don't they make a ton of profit for Quebec by exporting extra power to the US?

I read an interesting article not long ago about Hydro Quebec and the government of Quebec. There were some companies proposing to build a liquified natural gas project near Quebec City but the proposal was shot down, partly due to NIMBYism but also due to the government's stated reluctance to use fossil fuels in residential homes. They have (naturally) had a policy to use electrical power for home heating, with the source being cheap hydro power. The article stated that if they had not forced everyone to switch to electrical (from gas) many years ago the province would be much further ahead financially today. Consumers would have continued to use relatively cheap natural gas and Hydro Quebec could have sold the excess electricity to the US for much higher prices than they received locally.

[vid]

I prefer natural gas heating than electric. I have lived in places with both types and find that electric heating doesn't do as efficient a job as natural gas.

[vid]

Anyone else hate the Ontario lotto ads that go:

Happiness is playing Bingo!


Happiness is playing Bingo? I feel very sad for those that find inner happiness by playing some scratch-and-lose Bingo. I see them in the Tim Hortons...with coin in hand, scratching, scratching...they don't strike me as being very happy.

My grandmother spends at least a thousand a year on lottery tickets. She never wins anything. How can people be so stupid?

What's especially dumb is people who complain about taxes then buy lots of lottery tickets. You might as well hand your money over to public employees and skip the middle men. :rolleyes:

But my arguement is that the taxpayer is paying the same no matter which way you look at it. Higher taxes or higher payments to the crown corps. So how are the crown corps. any better?

TBayTel's home phone: about 25$ for what I have, but their website doesn't say; I think that's the bundle price so say about 30$ and Internet: $37.95 standalone
Shaw's home phone: $55 as standalone and Internet: $40.95 standalone

So Shaw (the only competition in landlines and internet) charges more. The loss of TBayTel would see not only higher taxes, but having to pay more to Shaw for their services if TBayTel were gone completely, or the possibility of TBayTel raising it's prices because Shaw won't. They charge us more than $60 for 57 channels on cable. (I think it's down to 56 now, actually?)

So no, the tax payer is not paying the same. The tax payer is, in our situation, paying less. Also keep in mind that TBayTel, as a regional provide, brings money in from outside the city as well.

So, TBayTel gives us lower prices and an extra $20M in city revenue that would otherwise be collected through higher taxes. (Thunder Bay has one of the lowest tax rates in Ontario, though, so raising them wouldn't be as bad as people say. It would bring us up to average.) I would say that that is a better situation. Especially now that you have the choice of not using TBayTel, although you'll pay what looks to be about 50% more.