[lrt's friend]

I bring this up because the latest pronouncements say that Phase 1 of LRT will be in operation 'within 10 years'.

We are seeing oil prices now approaching $1.40 a barrel, a 40% increase since the start of the year. We are seeing gas prices closing in at $1.35 per litre.

OC Transpo is experiencing a surge in ridership approaching 5% this year. At my own bus stop this morning, there was a dozen people waiting for one of 20 express runs to downtown. I have never seen this before, and at a time as summer approaches when university students are already out of class and vacations are beginning.

If oil prices continue to increase, will we not continue to see OC Transpo ridership increase, maybe even at an accelerating pace?

So, if we continue to see all these things happening, we could see OC Transpo ridership increase 50% or more before the first LRT train is put into service.

I have a few questions for all of you.

Do you expect ridership to continue to increase at this pace?

Where will ridership increase the most? to/form downtown? Elsewhere?

What corridors will likely need significant improvements in transit service?

Do you expect to see ridership increase also during off-peak hours at a similar pace?

Do you have ideas of handling all these additional passengers until LRT is ready, especially downtown?

How will we cope with Transitway conversion during a period of rapid ridership growth? How should this be done to minimize inconvenience?

Are there ideas on ways to speed up or enhance transit service until LRT is ready?

I look forward to seeing some creative ideas.

[Luker]

Honestly with the projected Oil prices, ridership should grow by more than fiver percent, I dont invision the city missing out on this. In my own personal opinion I believe Oil will rise to 2-300 a barrel by next summer (09) or by (10) and I drive everyday, if thats the case NO one will enjoy driving their car in traffic everyday for an hour each way. With this in mind im hoping LRT will get fast tracked and pushed ahead in europe manner with the east to west (inner greenbelt) development to be completed with about 6 years of today idealy, so 1 year for plans, five to get built.

The lrt seems to be ok with everyone from politicians, to business leaders, to everyday patrons so I cant forsee the busses taking on extra 50k-100k riders in five years, its just impossible.

Aswell Ottawa needs about half a billion to a billion in funding to fix road congestion, all of that would be elimnated immediately with rising gas prices, and LRT... I dont think the world is prepared for what we are about to embark on in the new oil era.

Buses on a hub and spoke system with automated LRT lines / stoping at as few destinations as possible outside the core, making it efficent and exchanges a matter of a minute or two. to promote and increase ridership further, in ottawa no wants to stand outside in -40 windchill or +40 humidex.. hopefully busses and trains could be reliable and on time... like european trains?? ahaha dream on? well see...

[citizen j]

Hub & spoke the whole system for 2009 and run high-capacity buses on the most heavily travelled routes. No more dancing around the downtown stops trying to find your route number amid the pack; only the 90s routes along Albert and Slater. The result would be faster loading downtown and the messy work of transferring would take place outside the core (the farther outside, the better). Also, increase the number of non-Albert/Slater cross-town routes. This would necessitate pushing forward the purchase of double-decked vehicles (wasn't there an order placed already?) and increasing the number for delivery by a signifcant margin. It might make the 8-10 year wait for a higher-capacity (and less oil-dependent) system less heinous. And these new bi-level buses will continue to be useful on the outer transitways as the older articulated buses are retired.

I think with the projected increase in traffic, the outcry at the cancellation of the adult school bus routes (suburb to office door expresses) will be mitigated by the fact that they're jammed right full and unpleasant to ride in already in many cases, a situation that will continue to deteriorate. The idea of getting a seat is a total fantasy for anyone not living at the very ends of the routes at this point. And if you're an able-bodied male, good luck getting and then keeping a seat while others stand unless 1) you just don't care if that pregnant woman has to stand the whole way to Tunney's Pasture; or 2) you can fake being asleep and, thereby pretend you didn't see that guy with the cane wobbling around in the aisle in front of you.

[sumo]

As part of implementing the hub-and-spoke system, the transfer stations at Baseline, Lincoln Fields, Hurdman and Blair need to be reconfigured for efficient transfers, e.g. stack the local and transitway/LRT platforms on top of each other as in St-Laurent/Tunneys/Westboro stations.

There probably should be a 90 series route between Blair and Gatineau or a high frequency circular route between downtown Ottawa and Gatineau to make up for the loss of express route connectivity.

Possible corridors that may need increased service: Kanata (Route 101), Merivale?

[Justin10000]

Hub & spoke the whole system for 2009 and run high-capacity buses on the most heavily travelled routes. No more dancing around the downtown stops trying to find your route number amid the pack; only the 90s routes along Albert and Slater. The result would be faster loading downtown and the messy work of transferring would take place outside the core (the farther outside, the better). Also, increase the number of non-Albert/Slater cross-town routes. This would necessitate pushing forward the purchase of double-decked vehicles (wasn't there an order placed already?) and increasing the number for delivery by a signifcant margin. It might make the 8-10 year wait for a higher-capacity (and less oil-dependent) system less heinous. And these new bi-level buses will continue to be useful on the outer transitways as the older articulated buses are retired.

I think with the projected increase in traffic, the outcry at the cancellation of the adult school bus routes (suburb to office door expresses) will be mitigated by the fact that they're jammed right full and unpleasant to ride in already in many cases, a situation that will continue to deteriorate. The idea of getting a seat is a total fantasy for anyone not living at the very ends of the routes at this point. And if you're an able-bodied male, good luck getting and then keeping a seat while others stand unless 1) you just don't care if that pregnant woman has to stand the whole way to Tunney's Pasture; or 2) you can fake being asleep and, thereby pretend you didn't see that guy with the cane wobbling around in the aisle in front of you.

Hub and Spoke is the only way to go. It's time to get rid of this "one seat to home" mentality. Run the express buses from outside the core, and run the Transitway like a surface subway. People need to understand a transfer is not that bad.

[c_speed3108]

One thing they could do is change the fair structure.

The reason I suggest this is in many cases the loading of the buses is very uneven due to express buses costing more.

Instead of regular and express fairs - we should have regular and rush hour fairs.

It would also encourage people to make trips outside of the peak hours when possible.

The fair would probably be about $3 for regular (same) and probably about $3.50 or $3.75 for rush.

This also has a cool effect of increasing the number of vehicles heading to different locations...upping the frequency as well.

[lrt's friend]

Hub and Spoke is the only way to go. It's time to get rid of this "one seat to home" mentality. Run the express buses from outside the core, and run the Transitway like a surface subway. People need to understand a transfer is not that bad.

Standing on a bouncing and jerking bus for 45 minutes is not pleasant. It all seems that we are heading for poorer quality of service.

[lrt's friend]

One thing they could do is change the fair structure.

The reason I suggest this is in many cases the loading of the buses is very uneven due to express buses costing more.

Instead of regular and express fairs - we should have regular and rush hour fairs.

It would also encourage people to make trips outside of the peak hours when possible.

The fair would probably be about $3 for regular (same) and probably about $3.50 or $3.75 for rush.

This also has a cool effect of increasing the number of vehicles heading to different locations...upping the frequency as well.

You have to be careful about fares. Raising fares in this manner makes it uneconomical to use transit for short trips. As it stands, I cannot justify using transit on a cost basis because of the current fare structure, let alone even higher fares. Long distance transit riders should continue to pay a premium because they cost the system more.

[Dado]

Hub & spoke the whole system for 2009 and run high-capacity buses on the most heavily travelled routes. No more dancing around the downtown stops trying to find your route number amid the pack; only the 90s routes along Albert and Slater.

I wouldn't quite go that far, for a couple of reasons, but first I'll suggest what I would do. I would consolidate all the 20-series buses into one bus - the #20, all the 30-series into the #30, and so. The inside-the-Greenbelt 50-series would probably go altogether. These buses would ply between downtown and a major suburban hub and/or Park & Ride, where they would interchange with the routes that were formerly express routes but are now local routes. Instead of dozens of routes to choose from, you'd be down to a handful. I suggest this because a lot of people are already using the express buses this way, especially in the afternoon. I know of many people who will hop on the first 60-series, etc. bus as they are just going to the Park & Ride where they get off and head for their car/waiting spouse*. This works because most of the buses in any decade series go to the same station before filtering off into the neighbourhoods.

*The interesting point about this is that it means that the downtown bus lanes are working "better" right now than they would be if every rider was only taking one bus route because by riders taking the first series bus they can means that there are fewer people on the platforms than there would be if people were waiting, on average, longer for "their" bus. Fewer people on the platforms means less platform congestion and therefore lower dwell times. The more you think about it, the more you realize how doomed these express buses are.

The second part of my scheme is to make use of the other lanes on Albert and Slater in the afternoon. Instead of having every #X0 bus stop at every stop in the afternoon, I would send an empty bus (say, the #70 westbound) to start at Hurdman, another empty bus to start at McKenzie-King, an empty at Bank and an empty at LeBreton. This would require some demand-matching on a per stop basis, but that's what OC Transpo should know anyway. Anyway, a #X0 bus that loaded up at one stop in the evening would not stop at the rest - it would only stop at the next stop or two and then just pass the rest of them (where the other empty buses start) in the second lane, only making additional stops at lower-volume (for express buses) stops like Lees, Hurdman, Bayview and Tunney's Pasture. This would take some trial-and-error to get it operating most efficiently, of course.

The basic idea is to get a bus full or close to full at one or two stops and send it on its way. No more having each bus queue for each stop just in case there might be someone to pick up.

I would not want to use all 90-series buses at this point for the simple reason that the dwell times on 90-series buses are atrocious with people getting on and off at every stop. I've been on #95s that were stopped for 2 minutes because of a wheelchair boarding. Buses simply do not have the internal space and the level boarding that trains have, so they take longer to load/unload. Right now this causes delays to the express buses since they have to queue behind a long-dwell 90-series even though its own dwell is not all that long. What the reduction in number of express buses and the number of stops they stop at would do is increase the dwell of each individual #X0 bus but collectively reduce the total time spent dwelling. In other words, the fact that a #X0 got stuck behind a 90-series at one stop wouldn't matter because it would both take longer to board its passengers but once it had loaded them it would pass the 90-series at the next stop or so, at which point another (empty) #X0 would fall in line. To further clarify, instead of a long series of 20-25 second dwells at each stop for each route, which are usually made much longer by there being a 90-series ahead in the queue, there would instead be one or two 40-60 second dwells per #X0 bus and then the bus is on its way.


I can see one disadvantage of this (or any other) route consolidation given the City's approved plan. If the consolidated route structure was left intact once rail was in place there would be double-transfers: at the end of the line and again at the suburban hub/P&R. To avoid this, the City would either have to reintroduce the full panoply of express buses crossing the Greenbelt or it would have to extend rail across the Greenbelt.

[citizen j]

^Yes, actually, that does sound better.

[Richard Eade]

I have been on 95s through the core, and watched other buses. It struck me that the 9x buses are by far the slowest to load (in aggregate) at the stops.

People taking an Express Bus; know where they are going and don’t have to ask the driver; usually use a bus pass so don’t need a transfer/POP; are fewer in number; and board less filled buses. These are significant time wasters which Express Bus riders avoid so the station dwell times are short for Express Buses.

The route 9x buses are the main-line buses which a lot of people take: They are cheaper than Express Buses, and they quickly (most of the time anyway) shuttle people to the main stations where passengers can transfer to their local buses. However, these are also the buses which inexperienced and infrequent riders would likely take, also. This means that there are likely to be more questions to the drivers about the route. This increases dwell time. As well, infrequent travellers are likely to use tickets or cash to pay their fare. At nearly four seconds per transfer/POP, this significantly increases dwell time. And then, since fewer people take Express Buses, there are larger station crowds for the 9x buses, and the buses are much more crowded; often nearing standing capacity. It takes a lot of time for people to jockey down to single file and filter into the bus. It also takes longer to ‘shoe-horn’ in the extra passengers onto an already crowded bus.

If, magically, the 9x buses and their passengers could be moved into a different dimension, I expect that all of the other buses would flow very easily through the core.

I like the idea ‘Dado’ put forth to consolidate the Express Buses. I think this will be one of the schemes that OC Transpo will need to use. I’m not sure if it will be necessary to add the multiple bus start positions and stop skipping, but it is a trick which can wait in the wings until it is needed.

Another idea is to separate the 9x buses from the others. One way to do this is to use every block for bus stops.

In this scenario, the current bus stops along Slater/Albert (roughly every second block) would be used for the 9x buses, and new stations would be added to the in-between blocks to handle the other buses. That way, the Express Buses, and any others, would pass the loading 9x buses. The 9x buses, in turn, would also pass the non-9x buses. The parking from the bus side of Slater/Albert would be removed and the curbs returned to straight lines so that there could be two bus lanes. This allows bus ‘leap-frogging’ without buses going into the regular traffic lanes. This would require the removal of parking so it might be hard to get Council and the Downtown BIA to agree with.

[lrt's friend]

I have also noticed the slower loading for 9x bus routes. Part of this is because they tend to be more crowded, and a crowded buses are always slower to load. Also, 9x bus routes have two way traffic, so before loading can take place, passengers must also disembark, and if the bus is crowded, this must be done through the closest door including the front door. The 9x buses also run slower, because they stop at more locations on the Transitway on their way to the suburbs and a crowded articulated bus seems to have very slow acceleration.

As a person who takes the first available bus going in my direction (in hopes of catching a local before the next express arrives), I am not too thrilled with the idea of segregating the 9x bus routes from express routes at separate bus stops downtown.

[Mister F]

Hub and spoke for sure.

An easy solution to loading times on the 9x routes is putting ticket machines in every transitway station and eliminate fareboxes on the buses altogether. They already require proof of payment so why not take the extra step? The European systems I've used that work like have faster loading on their buses and streetcars.

[c_speed3108]

Well riding the 90 series daily I would say a few things:

I don't think people asking for directions and such is too big of a problem.


The major two slow-downs (compared to express service) are over crowding and the on and off natures of the passengers.

If an express was packed that tight it would not be as big of an issue since it is alot like packing a delivery truck....everything in at one end and out at the other.

Because the 90's are doing both pickups and drop-offs all along the route there needs to be room for people to move. At times then the 90's are not crowded they work great....because people have room to move. Its the moving around within the bus part that takes forever. Stops are generally fast as you get further out.

So what do we do?

Well first off we need more equipment to get the loads per vehicle down to something more practical. Then we get to the problem of where to put said equipment.

I think what we need is to go to a two street design downtown. Perhaps make Albert and Slater both two-way streets with a curb bus lane on each side or use Laurier or something.

The transitway has two branches in the east and two and the west..so we put buses heading to East and South West one street A and buses heading to the West and South East on street B. If people need to transfer between the branches they can still do it easily at Hurdman and Lebretton (among other spots)

OC also consider buying Artics with an additional set of rear doors.

[c_speed3108]

Or we go to this type of setup

http://www.travelindiasmart.com/bus_Delhi.JPG

http://www.open2.net/society/international_development/images/7941_crowdedbus_rhs.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39972000/jpg/_39972888_indiabus203ap.jpg

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020526/pun1.jpg

:haha:

[O-Town Hockey]

I bet if we built some type of train-like vehicle through the core with large doors, a ton of capacity, and had everyone take this train either to their final destination or to a large transfer station (i.e. Blair and Lincoln Fields) that we could alleviate all of these problems in the core. We would have frequencies of less than 4 or 5 mintues so people wouldn't wait long. Maybe we could even run this "train" through a tunnel downtown so as to have seamless grade-separation just like that seen with the rest of the Transitway. It's a bit of a pipe-dream of mine, but wouldn't it be wonderful? Sounds like a long-term solution to me.

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/edmo/Edmonton-LRT_tunnel_near_University_Station.JPG

[lrt's friend]

Not sure if this was mentioned yet or not, but how about having some buses designated as non-stop to the suburbs. For example, 95 Orleans would make regular stops as it does today, while 95 Orleans Express would not stop after Ottawa U until arriving in Orleans. Or 96 Kanata Express, would not stop after Lebreton until Eagleson. Or 95 Barrhaven Express, would not stop after Lebreton until Fallowfield station. This may provide an attractive alternative if local express routes are discontinued and I think there is sufficient passenger demand during peak periods to offer both frequent non-stop and 'milk run' service. The non stop service would concentrate on peak direction travellers eliminating the slow down from passengers getting both on and off at each stop.

[Dado]

:previous:

That's pretty much what I was suggesting through express bus consolidation. Your #96 Kanata Express would be my #60 Kanata, replacing all the 60-series buses to Kanata. Your #95 Orleans Express would be my #30 Place d'Orleans and #20 Trim (or vice versa), which between them would replace all 20- and 30-series buses to Orleans.

[Dado]

I bet if we built some type of train-like vehicle through the core with large doors, a ton of capacity, and had everyone take this train either to their final destination or to a large transfer station (i.e. Blair and Lincoln Fields) that we could alleviate all of these problems in the core. We would have frequencies of less than 4 or 5 mintues so people wouldn't wait long. Maybe we could even run this "train" through a tunnel downtown so as to have seamless grade-separation just like that seen with the rest of the Transitway. It's a bit of a pipe-dream of mine, but wouldn't it be wonderful? Sounds like a long-term solution to me.


Indeed it would, but perhaps you missed the point of this thread:

I bring this up because the latest pronouncements say that Phase 1 of LRT will be in operation 'within 10 years'.

...

Do you have ideas of handling all these additional passengers until LRT is ready, especially downtown?

...

Are there ideas on ways to speed up or enhance transit service until LRT is ready?


:)

[lrt's friend]

That's pretty much what I was suggesting through express bus consolidation. Your #96 Kanata Express would be my #60 Kanata, replacing all the 60-series buses to Kanata. Your #95 Orleans Express would be my #30 Place d'Orleans and #20 Trim (or vice versa), which between them would replace all 20- and 30-series buses to Orleans.

Yes, your suggestion was very good and very similar. Thanks for your contribution.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I bet if we built some type of train-like vehicle through the core with large doors, a ton of capacity, and had everyone take this train either to their final destination or to a large transfer station (i.e. Blair and Lincoln Fields) that we could alleviate all of these problems in the core. We would have frequencies of less than 4 or 5 mintues so people wouldn't wait long. Maybe we could even run this "train" through a tunnel downtown so as to have seamless grade-separation just like that seen with the rest of the Transitway. It's a bit of a pipe-dream of mine, but wouldn't it be wonderful? Sounds like a long-term solution to me.

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/edmo/Edmonton-LRT_tunnel_near_University_Station.JPG

:haha: :tup:

[c_speed3108]

Transit ridership surges
Dave Rogers, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Tuesday, August 19, 2008

OTTAWA - Soaring fuel prices and bleak, rainy weather this summer have boosted ridership on Gatineau's public transit system by a record 12.6 per cent in July compared to the same period last year.

Patrice Martin, chairman of the Societe de transport de l'Outaouais (STO), said Tuesday that ridership growth was double the 6.3-per-cent increase in July 2007. The Increase meant 147,000 more bus trips taken on the STO system in July 2008 than during the same period last year.

Mr. Martin said the rapid growth in ridership will increase the bus company's costs for fuel and equipment. "The STO has already planned for September by adding 20 new trips to busy lines during peak hours as well as adding more bus routes in the Plateau and Manoir des Trembles neighbourhoods," Mr. Martin said.

The demand for transit has also increased among OC Transpo users in Ottawa. Ridership grew by another 4.7 per cent in Ottawa in May, compared with a year ago, propelling the city closer to the 100-million-a-year rider mark now expected to be surpassed this year.

While OC Transpo has geared down slightly for the quieter summer months, the company is concerned that its planned three-per-cent increase in transit capacity for the autumn could be swamped by a substantially bigger increase in demand for service. The city is a year ahead of its growth projections for transit and hurrying to catch up.


© The Ottawa Citizen 2008.

[Cre47]

While OC Transpo has geared down slightly for the quieter summer months, the company is concerned that its planned three-per-cent increase in transit capacity for the autumn could be swamped by a substantially bigger increase in demand for service. The city is a year ahead of its growth projections for transit and hurrying to catch up.

Seems CTV says the growth in July was closer to 9 percent and this despite the fare hike of 7 percent.

It's not by cutting the 97 on weekdays from Bayshore that will help them to cope with the increased demand. With no planned increase on the 96, it will be chaos at times. Same goes for the 94 and perhaps a few other routes such as the 1 and the 2.

Expect a lot of overcrowded buses this fall on Albert and Slater.

[Richard Eade]

I think this problem has been solves rather convincingly by the strike.

I know several people who switched from the bus to their own vehicles during the 1996 transit strike. None went back to buses.

Any guesses on the ridership drop caused by this strike? 5%, 10%, 15%!

[lrt's friend]

I say 50% unless there is back to work legislation, which the city will resist. I now believe that the mayor is determined to break the union, no matter how long it takes. This is why we have seen such a PR campaign to build up public support.

[Kitchissippi]

I think an initial significant ridership drop will result from people discovering alternatives during the strike. I'm sure there have been many new carpool arrangements fostered by workers out of necessity, which probably work out to be much cheaper than a bus pass (4 or 5 people sharing gas and a reserved parking spot). Eventually many these arrangements will fall apart for one reason or another (some constantly holding up others, drivers feeling taken advantage of, etc.) and ridership will pick up again.

I certainly have discovered the joys of winter cycling, especially yesterday with the massive dumping of snow. I got studded tires for my bike and invested in good outerwear including ski goggles. Getting downtown on the Scott street pathway was like a mountain bike adventure, and the possibility of falling on a snowbank padded up with all my layers was no big deal. Downtown, I use the entire bus lane and drivers are so paranoid they give you wide clearance.