[dvy88]

Is it possible to live in a Canadian city without a car? I'm thinking Toronto is definitely doable.... but what about cities like Vancouver, Montreal, or Calgary? I absolutely HATE driving and the costs associated with it, however waiting 20-30 minutes for a bus is a little too much for me (i live in Hamilton, ON) .. how frequent are buses/subways/LRT in these cities?

[Spocket]

I do it. Of course, then you also have to put up with the stigma and the preconceptions that go along with not owning a vehicle. People automatically figure you can't get a license or don't have the money for a car. That aside, for me, a car is a waste of money. I walk to work in about twenty seconds and I can shop across the street. If I have to go further afield, I have roughly ten bus routes half a block away that will take me to any point in the city I'm probably needing to go to.

The key is simply to live and work downtown or at least, very close to the core. It can be done in any city and it doesn't necessarily mean you have to deal with many of the problems usually associated with inner city living.

Still, not everybody has the same option I do. For those that could do this but don't , I suggest they look into it if they find themselves looking to relocate within their city.

[Xelebes]

I live without a car for the simple reason that I can't drive a car. I make do.

[dvy88]

I do it. Of course, then you also have to put up with the stigma and the preconceptions that go along with not owning a vehicle. People automatically figure you can't get a license or don't have the money for a car. That aside, for me, a car is a waste of money. I walk to work in about twenty seconds and I can shop across the street. If I have to go further afield, I have roughly ten bus routes half a block away that will take me to any point in the city I'm probably needing to go to.

The key is simply to live and work downtown or at least, very close to the core. It can be done in any city and it doesn't necessarily mean you have to deal with many of the problems usually associated with inner city living.

Still, not everybody has the same option I do. For those that could do this but don't , I suggest they look into it if they find themselves looking to relocate within their city.

Thats a lifestyle i would love to live!! :tup:
However, not all cities are centralized like yours is, unfortunately... Hamilton is a prime example.. the downtown core is very run down now... nothing seems to prosper down there.. and it doesnt look like it'll change anytime soon. Looks like I'll have to contemplate a move. Which city do you live in if you don't mind me asking?

[Coldrsx]

Although I have a car, because it is my hobby, I really have no need for one in Edmonton. Many will disagree but you can very much live without a car in many parts of Edmonton.

I live/work/play downtown and my gf works at the UofA which is a short LRT ride away with the nearest station 3 blocks from the condo. Everything we need for services, food, and the like are within 5 blocks with a few trips further to 124st/whyte easily done by bus, foot, bike, or streetcar.

Sure i drive to places because top down in the summer is so damn nice, but generally speaking we dont need to or dont full stop.

IMO any city can "carless" if you choose to live a lifestyle where you choose/find employment nearby or move to have good access to work.

I wouldnt have it any other way

[Greco Roman]

Thats a lifestyle i would love to live!! :tup:
However, not all cities are centralized like yours is, unfortunately... Hamilton is a prime example.. the downtown core is very run down now... nothing seems to prosper down there.. and it doesnt look like it'll change anytime soon. Looks like I'll have to contemplate a move. Which city do you live in if you don't mind me asking?

He lives in Winnipeg :)

[Bedford_DJ]

I think here in Halifax its doable but then again we are relitively dense and only in certain areas. I know many people who don't have a car and live on Spring Garden Road/South Park St and they get along fine. There's grocery stores, entertainment, offices, shops and downtown all within a 10 minute walk.

[SpongeG]

its doable here in vancouver and the car coops and zip cars are doing very well

a num,ber of people at work moved here from elsewhere and sold their cars within the first year after realizing they never needed them

[Rico Rommheim]

Of course its doable, I've never driven a car in my life, and never had to. The centre of Montreal is extremely walkable, bikable and accessible to transit.

[Aylmer]

I bike to everything, like the Gatineau Hills, downtown, arena, marina, festivals, museums, grocery store, mall, food, good food, bad food, librairy... Canoeing is also a way of getting to and from places! I walk, bike, bus, and canoe everywhere!
Except my school because it's 45 minutes away by car.

Location, location, lifestyle.

:)

[SpongeG]

i think its pretty doable for any single or kid less couples

but what cities can it be done in when kids come into the picture?

a recent survey showed that even with all the transit, bike and walking done for those living in the downtown core of vancouver 90% of people still rely on their cars for most trips

[401_King]

i live with a car in downtown toronto. last time i filled up was July 2007. its a waste of space. all i do is subway and Taxi

[kitchener-lrt]

I think you can definately live without a car in Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver.

[Rico Rommheim]

i think its pretty doable for any single or kid less couples

but what cities can it be done in when kids come into the picture?



I don't know man but me and pretty much my entire circle of friends grew up in the same part of town with middle class parents with no cars.

I remember my mother coming to pick me up from the day care and we going home on the bus. I can honestly say that I couldn't live in a place where a car is necessary.

I can't imagine people not being to do that in downtown vancouver. I can't imagine people wanting car in downtown Vancouver! :shrug:

[Greco Roman]

I think you can definately live without a car in Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver.

You can also definitely live in Winnipeg without a car as well since the city has a large transit fleet reaching into all corners of the burbs.

[Hillbillary]

I think you can definately live without a car in Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver.

Edmonton is a auto-based town, The current LRT system is woefully inadequate, bus service to the bedroom cummunities is near non-existant. maybe if you don't have kids and live in the core (or along a transit route) you can get by without a car, otherwise your buggered.

[O-Town Hockey]

Central Ottawa is very walkable/bikeable and we have a very good transit system with the Transitway (grade-separated busway) to all the major suburbs. I gave my car to my brother 3 years ago when I moved into the city from the 'burbs and I haven't looked back. I bike everywhere in the summer and take the bus in the Winter.

[Xelebes]

Edmonton is a auto-based town, The current LRT system is woefully inadequate, bus service to the bedroom cummunities is near non-existant. maybe if you live in the core you can get by without a car, otherwise your buggered.

*shrug*

I live in the west end and I do fine.

Edit - However, if I was living in my old house in Millwoods, I wouldn't be faring so well.

[Calgarian]

I live in Calgary and I haven't had a car for 2 years. It is easy to live without a car here, the transit system is really good, and there are tons of amenities downtown (where I live). That being said, I miss having a car and will probably buy one soon. Trips out to the mountains to go boarding, or going golfing are difficult with out a car, and my parents are looking to move to an acreage north of the city, so if I ever want to visit them, a car is a necessity.

[theman23]

I guess if using a cab doesn't count as living with a car, its doable. But even then, I'd still keep my car in case I need to go all the way to the other side of town or just leave the city.

[salvius]

I've lived without a car for years... no longer possible because work requires it. But otherwise, it's absolutely possible. This is obviously in Toronto. I'd imagine it would be possible in other major urban centers, and some smaller ones too.

[wild wild west]

I know plenty of people in Calgary who make do without a car, mostly people who live downtown or along the LRT. However I have a family, and for me it's just not feasible to have the kids take the bus to their frineds houses or sporting activities.

[DC83]

Is it possible to live in a Canadian city without a car? I'm thinking Toronto is definitely doable.... but what about cities like Vancouver, Montreal, or Calgary? I absolutely HATE driving and the costs associated with it, however waiting 20-30 minutes for a bus is a little too much for me (i live in Hamilton, ON) .. how frequent are buses/subways/LRT in these cities?

I live in Downtown Hamilton and work in suburban Stoney Creek and I don't drive. My commute is between 30-40 mins each way, so I spend about 1-1.5hrs on a bus or walking to/from home/my office every day... cept this week cuz I'm on vacay.

The commute will only get easier as the B-Line Express route I take every day will be an LRT route in about 5 yrs!!! :D

ps: Welcome to the forum, dvy88!

[flar]

My wife and I lived without a car in downtown London for about 3 or 4 years. It wasn't too bad.

[DC83]

Hamilton is a prime example.. the downtown core is very run down now... nothing seems to prosper down there.. and it doesnt look like it'll change anytime soon.

Sorry man... butttt do you live in the same Hamilton, ON as I do? b/c I live downtown, and altho it has it's spots, it's FAR from 'run down'.
Where in the city do u live?

[entheosfog]

In Van, I hardly use my car at all and for work I can't drive even if I wanted to as I work close to the Olympic Village site and there's no employee parking for the myriad of businesses in the area, almost like downtown. So that might get some more people to use transit but I wouldn't drive even if I could. But I love the fact I can walk to work (half hour) and I take transit home most days after a long day. Having a car is nice sometimes for big purchases or go on a little trip but most of the time it's more trouble than it's worth to try and drive with traffic the way it is here.

But for people living outside of the downtown/inner-city, a car may not be a must, but it certainly makes life easier to get to the power shopping centres or the corner store... :rolleyes:

[401_King]

I think you can definately live without a car in Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver.

my cuz lives in southwest calgary. total suburb. they need a car or they won't be able to do anything. the nearest bus station is a 30min walk.

[flar]

Thats a lifestyle i would love to live!! :tup:
However, not all cities are centralized like yours is, unfortunately... Hamilton is a prime example.. the downtown core is very run down now... nothing seems to prosper down there.. and it doesnt look like it'll change anytime soon. Looks like I'll have to contemplate a move. Which city do you live in if you don't mind me asking?

Yeah, Hamilton sucks. Everything is old and it's hard to walk around because the streets are in a grid and so close together. It smells bad too.

[Rusty van Reddick]

I think you can definately live without a car in Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver.

My partner's cousin lives in Richmond Hill and his family has FOUR cars. 401 King, suburbanites everywhere "need" cars.

I lived for months without a car when I first moved to Calgary- rented cars to go to K-Country, otherwise took the C-Train between my downtown apt and my job at the U. It was bliss. Then partner joined me and brought the car, which was and is a pain in the ass. I hate cars.

[401_King]

My partner's cousin lives in Richmond Hill and his family has FOUR cars. 401 King, suburbanites everywhere "need" cars.


ummm yea?? im sorry your friend drives and spends all his money on vehicles....but... thats richmond hill, the 905 desert... not toronto.....why bold toronto?... my cuz's address is an actual calgary address and he is still 30mins from a bus station (westhills). i was just making a point how he lives in that part of calgary and its impossible for him to live without his vehicle!

[Greco Roman]

Richmond Hill does not equal Toronto.

[Bedford_DJ]

i think its pretty doable for any single or kid less couples

but what cities can it be done in when kids come into the picture?

I think its doable in most cities even with kids. Since i technically don;t know any other city well enough lets take Hali. If you lived on Spring Garden theres an elementary (Inglis St/St Mary's), junior high (Gorsebrook) and high school (Citadel) in your area with no more then a 15 minute walk to them. If you can afford it there are three nearby private schools with one of them on your street serving primary-12. There are daycares nearby and sources of entertainment all around (Pubic Gardens, Commons, PPP, Park Lane, Library, Museums, YMCA, Centennial, ect). And theres a Sobeys 4 blocks away. And theres a childrens hospital nearby and religious institutions all around.

[The Chemist]

my cuz lives in southwest calgary. total suburb. they need a car or they won't be able to do anything. the nearest bus station is a 30min walk.

Big freaking deal. Not every part of Calgary is like the southwest. There are PLENTY of places in Calgary you could easily live without a car. :rolleyes:

[204]

Of course, then you also have to put up with the stigma and the preconceptions that go along with not owning a vehicle. People automatically figure you can't get a license or don't have the money for a car.

That is very much a Winnipeg thing. In Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver no one thinks that way...

[elsonic]

owning a car is one of many options to move your ass in a city : public transportation, taxis, feet, bicycle, skateboard, car-sharing companies, + working from home, spending your money in the surrounding local indie stores, sending your kids to the shool in the area and daycare center, near you, instead of paying for some private wannabe-better place, go to parks instead of your own garden, and so more.

usually, living without your own car implies that you live more in the center, and that your lifetime is shared with more people, in collective places, public spaces and institutions. that you share your vital space with first-generation immigrants, poorer people, yuppies, homeless guys, gays, singles, old lads.

but hey, that's diversity, that's the city, that's life! it's the reality. living with dozens of copy/paste of your own young happy family is defenitely wako :whip:

that being said, our urban development (in the central areas) should be more focused on affordable townhouses, larger and cheaper condos and co-properties, instead of just really small and upscale units.

[401_King]

Big freaking deal. Not every part of Calgary is like the southwest. There are PLENTY of places in Calgary you could easily live without a car. :rolleyes:

relax? im just talking about my cousin's situation. however, i do think it is a big freaking deal. don't you think its a problem when someone is a 30min walk away from the nearest bus? fortunately for him, he is rich and is too cool for the bus.

[someone123]

Toronto and Montreal are fine without a car. Vancouver is pretty good, although the SkyTrain really is not comparable to the subways at this point in time. I get by without a car currently, and if I lived and worked downtown things would be easier.

Halifax is okay without a car. The transit system is poor but the core is built on a pedestrian scale and if you want you can walk to all sorts of things (if you live in the downtown or inner parts of the South End - Quinpool or the North End require transit for practical purposes). In my opinion this is even better than relying on the subway or buses.

Every city has suburban areas where you basically need a car so that's not really worth discussing.

[worldwide]

i am proof that it is possible both in London and suburban Vancouver. cars are overrated. you only need it because big oil has you convinced that you need it.

[Boris2k7]

I'm in suburban Calgary and living without a car. Not because I can't drive one or afford it, but because I choose not to. And while this lifestyle has its share of difficulties, I think it's well worth it in the end. The buses are horrendous, but at worst I am a 20 minute walk away from an LRT station which can take me just about anywhere that I need to go. Frankly, I'm simply unwilling to go anywhere that requires a car... unless the "host" is going to go to the expense to pick me up... and that goes for all jobs, friends, etc.

If I was living even 5Km closer to downtown, my life would be a hell of a lot easier. But such is living at home through University.

[softee]

I've had absolutely no problems living without a car here in North Bay. I've never even driven a car.

[wild wild west]

my cuz lives in southwest calgary. total suburb. they need a car or they won't be able to do anything. the nearest bus station is a 30min walk.

Well, SW Calgary is a bit of an anomaly (at least the Springbank part of it) - it's the lowest density part of the City and also is a fragmented mess of small acreage parcels and estate cul-de-sacs. That said, if your 'cuz' lives in an actual subdivision as opposed to an acreage parcel, he will have a bus stop within approximately 400m of his door (which is less than 30 minutes walk, unless 'cuz' is 90 and uses a walker) because Calgary Transit's standard is to have bus service available within 400m walking distance of all serviced residential lots.

[Acajack]

I’ve heard it said many times that the Plateau Mont-Royal district near Rue St-Denis in central Montreal is the least auto-dependent neighbourhood in North America, with only 44% of trips taken by residents by private car. So, if there are still almost half of all trips in the Plateau that are taken by car, what does this say about all of the other so-called walkable* areas across the continent?

The City of Montreal also says that this neighbourhood has the highest population density in North America. And interestingly enough, it has almost no high-rises!

*For example, I lived for a short time in the attractive downtown Ottawa neighbourhood of Sandy Hill, near the University of Ottawa. Rideau Street (with two supermarkets) and the large Rideau Centre mall were just a few blocks away, and almost all of the residents in the building I was in would nonetheless drive to both of them, as they would drive to the vibrant Byward Market area, about a 10-minute walk from where I was.

[miketoronto]

Thats a lifestyle i would love to live!! :tup:
However, not all cities are centralized like yours is, unfortunately... Hamilton is a prime example.. the downtown core is very run down now... nothing seems to prosper down there.. and it doesnt look like it'll change anytime soon. Looks like I'll have to contemplate a move. Which city do you live in if you don't mind me asking?

You could live car free in Hamilton very easy. Small cities like Hamilton are compact and the transit can get you where you need to go in a half hour or less in many cases. You could live there fine without a car. Almost all the services you need are along bus routes that operate with pretty good frequency.

[socialisthorde]

You could live car free in Hamilton very easy. Small cities like Hamilton are compact and the transit can get you where you need to go in a half hour or less in many cases. You could live there fine without a car. Almost all the services you need are along bus routes that operate with pretty good frequency.

My family uses our car only rarely in our small city (Saskatoon) and I know another small family here who live without a car. We are in a central neighborhood and as hard as the city tries to eliminate them by building power centres on the periphery, most services are available within walking/cycling distance. A few require transit. The biggest problem is kids' sports, which are obviously organized by people strongly attached to their cars and therefore scattered all over the city.

[IntotheWest]

401_king - I lived in North York, and definitely needed a car (more for work)...last time I checked that was Toronto. Richmond Hill and Markham are technically not part of GTA, but I lived out there for a good couple months before I realized it wasn't all part of the same city. Living there is no different than living in deep SW, SE, NW, or NE Calgary (or heck, Burnaby/Richmond/Surrey).

So, I think every city in Canada could technically be lived in without a car, but there seems to only be several so far that say they actually have.

I'm a definite car guy, and I lived in downtown Calgary (Beltline) for 3 years without really using my car - except when I wanted to go cruise for the purpose of cruising. Walked to work, walked for shopping, walked for groceries, walked for restaurants...heck, even walked to the Dome for hockey games.

I'll throw it out there that I'm not a mass transit kind of person, so, if I can't walk, I'd prefer to drive (which, is likely why in NY I felt I needed a car).

I also lived in downtown Vancouver, and definitely don't need a car...it's no surprise that its very walkable. Even if I was staying at Canada Place and walking on a nice day to Granville Island. Burnaby I found is a different story - despite the rise of condos out there...unless you want to live/shop/play at Metrotown. Richmond I found the same with (lived there for about 6 months).

Winnipeg I lived downtown for over a year without a car...it's possible there as well. Though, I did find a lack of grocery stores (re: none close), everything shut early (incl some restaurants)...but that was back in 03/04, and I know more folks have started living DT. I agree with Greco that the bus service is quite good though.

I imagine Edm would be nearly as good as Calgary - except Whyte isn't really walkable to downtown (okay, never tried...just imagine it isn't). EDIT: I lived in St Albert back in 98/99...so, before "Railtown", etc were built.

EDIT: Since it hasn't come up, I'll add that with kids now, living without a car would be a lot tougher. Again, it's possible, but I'd like to see someone post here that actually has/does do it.

[WhipperSnapper]

Richmond Hill and Markham are technically not part of GTA

*teehee* yes, they are


I've heard of many people living in Mississauga without a car which proves anything is possible anywhere at anytime

[RTA]

I have lived in and around Edmonton - the most car-dependent city in Canada, apparently - for my entire life, and I have never needed a car. Even when I lived in the suburb of St. Albert, I could get into and around the city with very little problem.

The thing is, I think, I have never had an opportunity to get used to having a car to depend on. I have always depended only on my feet, my bike, my rollerblades, or buses to get around. And I like it that way.

If I had been a driver and got used to the convenience of having a car, I imagine it would be a bit frustrating and annoying to give it up then. And I guess that's why people who do drive can never seem to figure out how I've done so well for myself without even having ever held more than a Class 7 learner's for the last 14 years of my life. "You'll have to get a driver's license and a car eventually!" they told me, and continue to try to tell me. Hah!

More than once I've been in a car with drivers who are complaining about traffic, the cost of recent car repairs, insurance rates, the price of gas, the guy that just cut them off,...and then turn to me and ask in complete seriousness, "why don't you have a car?" Mindbottleing.

[240glt]

When I lived in my condo in the beltline, my roommate worked downtown, had a car but never used it. I had a car, but since I worked at our office in the SE, plus at three different hospitals in the city, I felt like I needed it (I doubt my company would have been too impressed with me taking the bus around to all my different jobsites)

I am a car guy though... Here in Edmonton I'm all over the city on a regular basis as well. At one point I had three vehicles, My Volvo and Toyota truck plus the 3/4 ton GMC work truck. The latter is gone, thankfully.

I'm lucky I suppose that I don't have to pay to park my vehicles at home, and asside for that, my cars are not a big expense. The Volvo costs $45/ month to insure, I know everything there is to know about it and have been successful at keeping it running & in good condition thanks to chez pick-your-part.

The Toyota truck costs a little more to run & I don't fix it myself, but it's taken me 247,000 kms virtually trouble free and I usually only use it if I'm headed out of the city. Most of the time it sits in the garage.

I'm also really really cheap. I hate spending money, so I tend to try & maximize value out of the things that I own, and I tend to own things for a long long time. I've got lots of friends who have perpetual car payments., & they assume that having a car payment is like having to pay rent... it's just an expense you always have. I haven't made a car payment in three years (since my truck was paid off) And I don't plan on buying a new car, just for the sake of owning something new & shiny.

I also do love the LRT, and use it whenever I need to go downtown or to the U.

[miketoronto]

EDIT: Since it hasn't come up, I'll add that with kids now, living without a car would be a lot tougher. Again, it's possible, but I'd like to see someone post here that actually has/does do it.

Having kids is no excuse for driving everywhere. There is no reason a family with kids can't live with just one car, and using transit. Infact for some trips its easier to just walk to the bus with the kisd and hop on instead of trying to fit everyone in the car :)

Its about balance. And you can balance your transport needs even with kids. I know people who bike almost everywhere with their babies, and almost never use a car.
So it can be done.

It is based on your lifestyle and what is important to you.

But overall you can live car free in amost every large Canadian city and even smaller ones, and you can just fine.
Also living car free depends on your lifestyle. If your life revolves around downtown, then it is easy to live without a car. I live in the suburbs for example, but 95% of my activities from job, to school, to shopping, etc takes place downtown or in the inner city. So once I take the train into the city in the morning, almost all my activities are done within walking distance of work or a short subway ride. Even food shopping, I can walk to 5 different national supermarkets plus a farmers market, get my stuff, and hop on the train home.
It all depends on your lifestyle.

[MolsonExport]

^Mike, do you have young children? If you do not, don't assume you can begin to understand what it is like.

[socialisthorde]

EDIT: Since it hasn't come up, I'll add that with kids now, living without a car would be a lot tougher. Again, it's possible, but I'd like to see someone post here that actually has/does do it.

I did address this above. I know a family who does. They only have one kid, so that simplifies it a bit, and I know they struggle at times. I don't think I could do it without significantly reigning in the kids activities, because most are not offered in a way that would allow walking, cycling or transit consistently. We did live with two kids in D.T. Vancouver and had a car that never left its parking spot for months at a time, but the kids were preschool. There were no schools within reasonable (and safe) travel distance at that time. However, I think that the way the former expo lands (can't recall the current name) have since been developed, with a community centre and school and in close proximity to downtown shopping, library, cultural venues, it would be very workable now even with older children.

In response to Mike's comments, We do live quite easily with two school age kids and one car and use alternate transportation a great deal, so that is possible.

[wild wild west]

EDIT: Since it hasn't come up, I'll add that with kids now, living without a car would be a lot tougher. Again, it's possible, but I'd like to see someone post here that actually has/does do it.

I was car-free right up until and even in the first year or so after my first son was born. But once you have kids, it gets a lot harder not to drive. It can be done, I'm sure, but transit loses its appeal when you have a stroller to lug around, or even as they get older and you have to start paying transit fare for them. And grocery shopping without a car gets pretty tough when you have a family of 4 and you buy $200 or so worht of groceries at a time.

[matt602]

I also live in Hamilton without use of a car. I have no problem with it, I enjoy using transit. I use it when I'm in Toronto as well, even easier. It's only hard to do in places like Burlington/Oakville where the transit service is horrible.

[J-MAN]

its possible to live without a car in depending on you situation, it just seems japanese cities are far more pedestrian friendly :tup:


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/2598753185_e10c86974c.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3121/2598755717_c708f477eb.jpg?v=0

[IntotheWest]

I was car-free right up until and even in the first year or so after my first son was born. But once you have kids, it gets a lot harder not to drive. It can be done, I'm sure, but transit loses its appeal when you have a stroller to lug around, or even as they get older and you have to start paying transit fare for them. And grocery shopping without a car gets pretty tough when you have a family of 4 and you buy $200 or so worht of groceries at a time.

We were the same. You can also factor in weather to your assessment above, and usually being in tight timeframes.

@Miketoronto - Don't even bother answering MolsonExport's question...it's very obvious from your comments that you don't have kids, and have no idea.

socialisthorde - I do know a colleague that did have was having a kid, and living downtown Vancouver. For a variety of reasons (climate being the biggest one), I could almost see living with kids car-free in downtown Vancouver...but at what cost as well?

@goodlookin' - Oh. Well, there you go...still don't know the "GTA" borders I guess. I thought someone there had told me back then (late-ish 90's) that it was 905 vs 416. Anyway, didn't notice even the short time I lived in Markham and drove daily to NY. Regardless, don't know what 401_King is talking about.

[flar]

You could live car free in Hamilton very easy. Small cities like Hamilton are compact and the transit can get you where you need to go in a half hour or less in many cases. You could live there fine without a car. Almost all the services you need are along bus routes that operate with pretty good frequency.

The lower city is very dense and compact and well suited for transit, but half hour or less is a big stretch even just for the lower city. The route that comes by my place takes over one hour to end to end. Many destinations are not along routes and many parts of the city have very poor service. I took a bus to my baseball game a couple weeks ago and it took nearly 1.5 hours (never again!). For comparison, I could take HSR and GO to Union Station in Toronto in about the same amount of time.

That said, I currently commute by bus daily (15 min) and could easily live without a car in Dundas if I didn't have a wife and daughter. It's also a 25 minute bus ride downtown from where I live. There is a family I know of in Dundas with three kids and no car (by choice).

[Me&You]

ummm yea?? im sorry your friend drives and spends all his money on vehicles....but... thats richmond hill, the 905 desert... not toronto.....why bold toronto?... my cuz's address is an actual calgary address and he is still 30mins from a bus station (westhills). i was just making a point how he lives in that part of calgary and its impossible for him to live without his vehicle!

I (regrettably) lived in Westhills about 5 years ago. While I LOVE my car and used it for most of my trips, my gf at the time bused to work DT in about 20-25 mins after a 5 minute walk to the stop. We were also a 10-15 minute walk (if we chose) to the Westhills "mall" (power centre) that had every type of store you'd need for daily basics. If you wanted, you could "live" in Westhills without a car.

Like others have said, there are many estate and acreage areas surrounding westhills that would make walking a little more difficult. But this wouldn't eliminate transit as an option and the 30 mins is pure BS.

[salvius]

I’ve heard it said many times that the Plateau Mont-Royal district near Rue St-Denis in central Montreal is the least auto-dependent neighbourhood in North America, with only 44% of trips taken by residents by private car.

44% of all trips, or 44% of trips to work? Census doesn't track the former, so if it is of all the trips, I'd like to know how they came up with those stats. If it is the later, there are plenty neighbourhoods all across North America, including Montreal, which have lower trip ratios than that. Even if later (in which case I'd like to know where the stats are from), there's no way 44% of all trips is lowest in North America.

[Rusty van Reddick]

ummm yea?? im sorry your friend drives and spends all his money on vehicles....but... thats richmond hill, the 905 desert... not toronto.....why bold toronto?... my cuz's address is an actual calgary address and he is still 30mins from a bus station (westhills). i was just making a point how he lives in that part of calgary and its impossible for him to live without his vehicle!

Calgary is a huge unicity whose suburbs are mostly in city limits. Your Richmond Hill is in 905, ours (and it really is called Richmond Hill) is, coincidentally, around Westhills.

And to clarify, I bolded Toronto because you bolded Calgary, and both of our examples were of people who chose to live in parts of those CMAs that are not good for transit. A for Toronto proper, I'd find it well nigh impossible to live in The Beach w/o a car. Also we lived west of the Annex but my job entailed me teaching at UTM and I absolutely needed my car for that, so there ya go. It all depends. My best friend from college works for a hedge fund in Westchester CO NY and he lives on the upper west side, and he has to DRIVE to work- yes in NYC. He has no other option and despises it with a passion.

[Acajack]

44% of all trips, or 44% of trips to work? Census doesn't track the former, so if it is of all the trips, I'd like to know how they came up with those stats. If it is the later, there are plenty neighbourhoods all across North America, including Montreal, which have lower trip ratios than that. Even if later (in which case I'd like to know where the stats are from), there's no way 44% of all trips is lowest in North America.

Can you read French?

http://www.cimtu.qc.ca/EnqOD/1998/Resultats/mobilite/pdfs/mobmtl_1998_sect_006.pdf

[IntotheWest]

^Although, I think the argument could be made that one could quite easily live in the condos around the Somerset C-train station without a car - virtually the southern-most point of Calgary. And, it would cost a whole lot less...25 minutes to downtown (at most), and everything around that most would need day to day. Granted, not nearly the selection of a downtown (or the aesthetics).

[Sir.Humphrey.Appleby]

If you want to check the livability of a neighborhood based on pure quantitative analysis, check our http://www.walkscore.com/. It has some problems of course, like any automated system, but it is certainly a neat toy.

Once you get any distance from 'nodes' in any city the score drops dramatically.

Here are some statistical maps of Westhills, and the surrounding neighborhood Signal Hill which include the sub neighborhood Richmond Hill.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7291/picture19nb0.png
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2503/picture20uq5.png

[240glt]

Neat. My house in Alberta Avenue in Edmonton gets a 48, Although it should be higher because the system didn't pick up the Save-On or any of the stores in the retail strip down the road. The Calgary Condo @ 15 ave & 11 st SW gets an 87, which is totally believable.

[IntotheWest]

^I love these things. They're so inaccurate :)

The location I mentioned above, I put it in for kicks, and it gave it a score of "63 out of 100". But, this is what it found:

- Nearest groceries - completely missed the Co-op across the street, so the nearest one is nearly 2 kms away (which also means it's missing the Safeway and Superstore within under 1.5 kms).
- Though I gave it the address of the YMCA, it oddly misses that too from the "Fitness" category.
- Also misses the Home Depot right across the street for "Hardware stores"...nearest one showing 9 kms away!
- Does it completely ignore schools? LRT/subway stations?

I guess with that, a score of 63 seems alright ;)

[IntotheWest]

Neat. My house in Alberta Avenue in Edmonton gets a 48, Although it should be higher because the system didn't pick up the Save-On or any of the stores in the retail strip down the road. The Calgary Condo @ 15 ave & 11 st SW gets an 87, which is totally believable.

yeah, I just tapped in my old address at 11th/14th Ave, and got the same score. It still missed the Co-op.

EDIT: I just put in my new address and got an 8. :haha:

From my experience - and this may shock some - but I found nearly the same quality of living in downtown Calgary as I had in Vancouver...with the exception of a "Future Shop" type store (I like my electronics....A&B was alright at the time, but not the same), and a movie theatre that plays the first run Hollywood blockbuster movies closer to the Beltline (Globe is a nice alternative though). I found Eau Claire was sometimes too far away from the
Beltline. Otherwise, it offered everything that I definitely needed, and is just getting better anyways.

[salvius]

Can you read French?

http://www.cimtu.qc.ca/EnqOD/1998/Resultats/mobilite/pdfs/mobmtl_1998_sect_006.pdf

Thanks. I guess it's good to remember census isn't the only source of this kind of information. Still, I doubt that's anywhere near lowest.

[AndrewJ3D]

My address scored 97 out of 100. If memory serves me correct last time it was in the low 80's about a year ago. It must have been updated with more accurate info. I actually do live in one of the most walkable areas in Toronto.

[401_King]

401_king - I lived in North York, and definitely needed a car (more for work)...

if you don't mind me asking, where in NY? i'm sure transit access was remotely accessible in your area?

[IntotheWest]

if you don't mind me asking, where in NY? i'm sure transit access was remotely accessible in your area?

Yes, of course. I was at Novotel, which is right over the NY Centre...I did mention that if I can't walk, I'd rather drive - just not a mass-transit person. To be fair, I would say you could live there without a car just as much as the far-out burb in Calgary I mentioned above. I did walk down to the 24-hour Dominion, or Empress Walk for groceries or a movie. There weren't many restaurants around though - ditto for shopping. And IIRC, the subway would take me downtown (about 25-mins if I remember right), but not Yorkdale.

That was back in '02, and even then there were a few new condos going up, so I'm sure I'd barely recognize it now.

[J-MAN]

the highest i could find in winnipeg was at 393 portage avenue with an 88
the lowest was 12 at 4000 main street:P

[IntotheWest]

^Did you try somewhere in Osborne?

EDIT: I guess there's no theatre within walking distance - something that looks for.

[J-MAN]

^Did you try somewhere in Osborne?

EDIT: I guess there's no theatre within walking distance - something that looks for.

90 osborne only got a 67 out of 100:shrug:

[Bucolic Urbanity]

CA for Toronto proper, I'd find it well nigh impossible to live in The Beach w/o a car. Also we lived west of the Annex but my job entailed me teaching at UTM and I absolutely needed my car for that, so there ya go.

I think you are a bit strong there in saying it would be 'nigh impossible' in the Beaches and you 'absolutely needed' a car in the Annex.

BTW, what does UTM refer to...is that U of T Mississauga...I always though it was Erindale College.

From the Beach area in Toronto isn't there good streetcar service to the core and/or go north to the Bloor/Danforth subway line. I think U of T run a shuttle bus to Erindale College from the main campus....I may be wrong.

[flar]

That walkability calculator has some serious flaws, it listed the closest library to me in Dundas as Burlington Library. There is a library a few blocks from my place, and a large university with several libraries a couple km away.

[Jolly]

90 osborne only got a 67 out of 100:shrug:

As a long time resident of Osborne village without a car, I have two complaints:

-No close theatre (noted above).
-No decent bookstore (even worse now that McNally's has exited Portage Place).

[Rusty van Reddick]

I think you are a bit strong there in saying it would be 'nigh impossible' in the Beaches and you 'absolutely needed' a car in the Annex.

BTW, what does UTM refer to...is that U of T Mississauga...I always though it was Erindale College.

From the Beach area in Toronto isn't there good streetcar service to the core and/or go north to the Bloor/Danforth subway line. I think U of T run a shuttle bus to Erindale College from the main campus....I may be wrong.

"Erindale College" has been University of Toronto-Mississauga for ten years now. And yes there is a shuttle but not one that could get me to a 9am class. I also taught for a year at Guelph- I needed the car, not to get anywhere in the city but for my work and my commuting pattern.

[Bedford_DJ]

Wow that walkability metre is off. It claimed there is a store at the bottom of my hill while also claiming it was in another town.

Despite its inaccuracy and outdatedness, like missing our Main Library!!!, Park Vic Condos in Halifax (in downtown) got a 78 which is pretty good. I think it was the library being 4-5km off the correct position that brought the mark down.

[KrisYYC]

I work at the airport so a car is a must. 90 mins one-way to go 15km on transit is not acceptable.


Kris

[KrisYYC]

dp

[O-Town Hockey]

I checked the walkability score for my new condo under construction in downtown Ottawa and it received an 88. I don't think you'll find a much better score in the entire city of Ottawa, thus, pretty pumped about my new place.

[clynnog]

"Erindale College" has been University of Toronto-Mississauga for ten years now.

Thanks for the update on the new name of U of T Mississauga.

[MonkeyRonin]

Yes, of course. I was at Novotel, which is right over the NY Centre...I did mention that if I can't walk, I'd rather drive - just not a mass-transit person. To be fair, I would say you could live there without a car just as much as the far-out burb in Calgary I mentioned above. I did walk down to the 24-hour Dominion, or Empress Walk for groceries or a movie. There weren't many restaurants around though - ditto for shopping. And IIRC, the subway would take me downtown (about 25-mins if I remember right), but not Yorkdale.

How can you live on a subway line and claim to need a car? North York in its entirety has 3 (well, 2, technically) subway lines and countless high-frequency (about 5-minutes for most, some even less, no more than 10 for all) bus routes to connect to that subway.

A car isn't necessary even in the most far flung corners of Scarborough and Etobicoke - as living there will automatically entail a long commute regardless of the mode.

Also I don't think you know NYCC very well if you couldn't find any restaurants or shopping.


^Mike, do you have young children? If you do not, don't assume you can begin to understand what it is like.

You don't need to have children to understand what raising them without a car would be like, when having been a child growing up in that situation is more than sufficient. You also can't compare your experience in London to someone living in the likes of central Toronto or Montreal.


I’ve heard it said many times that the Plateau Mont-Royal district near Rue St-Denis in central Montreal is the least auto-dependent neighbourhood in North America, with only 44% of trips taken by residents by private car. So, if there are still almost half of all trips in the Plateau that are taken by car, what does this say about all of the other so-called walkable* areas across the continent?

I wouldn't put much merit into that. Looking at Statscan data, in most of the Plateau area, auto usage for commuting rarely exceeds 20%.


The City of Montreal also says that this neighbourhood has the highest population density in North America. And interestingly enough, it has almost no high-rises!

uhhh, thats even more far-fetched. The census tracts around the Plateau top out around 33,000/sqkm, with most of the adjacent tracts around 15-20,000. In comparison, Toronto's north-eastern downtown quarter tops out at 65,000/sqkm, surrounded by 12-26,000 tracts.

And this is only in Canada and does not include the likes of Upper East Side New York - 45,000 people/sqkm spread over 4.5 square kilometres!

[IntotheWest]

How can you live on a subway line and claim to need a car? North York in its entirety has 3 (well, 2, technically) subway lines and countless high-frequency (about 5-minutes for most, some even less, no more than 10 for all) bus routes to connect to that subway.

Also I don't think you know NYCC very well if you couldn't find any restaurants or shopping.



Bud...did you read everything you quoted from me? Especially the second sentence, where I admitted to NOT being a mass-transit person?? Did you also read that my experience there was 6 years ago??? I guess you missed that stuff.

Considering I also said in the first sentence that I lived pretty much right over the NY Centre station, I was admitting that you could live there without a car as well as some burb areas in Calgary (ummmm...actually, I said that exactly ;) However, from a "walkability" perspective, the options weren't nearly as good as a downtown core. That may have changed.

As for restaurants...well, try living there in a hotel and then telling me there's lots in the area. Again, keep it in the context of 6 years ago...I said it probably has changed.


You don't need to have children to understand what raising them without a car would be like, when having been a child growing up in that situation is more than sufficient.



You can't be serious. This might be the funniest statement I've read from an (obviously) non-parent. Unless you have a perfect memory of the first 5 years of your life, you have no idea...any parent on here would agree.

[harls]

I've got a 10 month old.. I can't imagine living without a car for many of the reasons already given here.. but if I had to raise a kid without a car, I wouldn't be living in the burbs like I am now.

I just bought a new car a couple of weeks ago, mostly because the one I had before didn't have enough room for the baby junk we have to lug around... and this is just for one kid, imagine 2 or 3... yikes.

[IntotheWest]

Just curious, when you say "car", what kind if you don't mind me asking (style-wise)?

We bought a mini-van - which had twice the space a mid-size SUV had - and you're right, it does fill up quick. Our son is almost 2 now, and I can get by with putting him in the back seat of our sports car now.

I agree though...if I had to live without a car, it wouldn't be the burbs - and I would have to be able to walk to 90% of what we need (work might be the exception to this).

Of course, that doesn't account for when he starts to play hockey ;)

[harls]

No problem in asking.. it's a Focus wagon. Small, but has more space than the 4-door focus I used to have. We were looking into a Jetta wagon too, but they're hard to find used... the Mazda 5 was also an option.

[miketoronto]

Sorry guys but kids I still maintain are no excuse for driving everywhere. Yes a family could use one car. But just because you have kids does not mean you can't ride the bus to work, or bike to the bakery(with the kid on the bike)and enjoy a nice little ride along the way, etc.
You do not need to be married to your car, just because of kids.

Infact I know many people who get along with kids and having no car. Actually it could be said to be easier to just roll the stroller onto the bus, then having to pack the kid into the car, roll up the stroller, etc.

So there is no excuse for not balancing out your transport use, just because you have kids.
How did people do it before we all had to drive a block to the store???

[IntotheWest]

Sorry guys but kids I still maintain are no excuse for driving everywhere. Yes a family could use one car. But just because you have kids does not mean you can't ride the bus to work, or bike to the bakery(with the kid on the bike)and enjoy a nice little ride along the way, etc.
You do not need to be married to your car, just because of kids.

Infact I know many people who get along with kids and having no car. Actually it could be said to be easier to just roll the stroller onto the bus, then having to pack the kid into the car, roll up the stroller, etc.

So there is no excuse for not balancing out your transport use, just because you have kids.
How did people do it before we all had to drive a block to the store???

Sorry Miketoronto, but if you "know many people who get along with kids and having no car", get them to post on here...don't speak for them. I can absolutely guarantee it wouldn't be "easier to just roll the stroller onto the bus"...you must have an older kid in your imagined scenario - good luck with a kid under 3. And doing it yourself. On a crowded bus. In a winter storm.

Besides, I'm not sure I get the whole point of doing away with the car...we got them so we can use them. If you (and others on here) are dead-set against using them, great! It's possible. If you want to do it with kids, great again! Have fun. For the vast majority of us, there's just no point.

[IntotheWest]

How did people do it before we all had to drive a block to the store???

How did we all post on forums before the internet?

[MonkeyRonin]

Bud...did you read everything you quoted from me? Especially the second sentence, where I admitted to NOT being a mass-transit person??

Yes, but on the last page you said about North York, you, "definitely needed a car". Which would infer that it is an auto-centric location, rather than your personal preference of the car over transit, which would be the case regardless of location.


Did you also read that my experience there was 6 years ago??? I guess you missed that stuff.

...

As for restaurants...well, try living there in a hotel and then telling me there's lots in the area. Again, keep it in the context of 6 years ago...I said it probably has changed.

Whether or not it was 6 years ago is irrelevant. Yonge Street (and Bayview, to a lesser extent) are lined with retail. I've been in this area frequently for my entire life and as far back as I can remember that has been the case. In fact, even before my lifetime that was the case:

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7825/767pxcanada1976willowdabi3.jpg



You can't be serious. This might be the funniest statement I've read from an (obviously) non-parent. Unless you have a perfect memory of the first 5 years of your life, you have no idea...any parent on here would agree.

Well, people seemed to get by just fine without cars for thousands of years, with even more children at that, and still billions do just that. In many cases (depending on the environment), an automobile would be a mere hindrance to child-rearing.

[Hillbillary]

Some people don't need a house either, maybe we should all aspire to living under a bridge somewhere. Bottomline - if you use a car, try to use it sparingly. If you don't, count yourself as lucky.

[IntotheWest]

Yes, but on the last page you said about North York, you, "definitely needed a car". Which would infer that it is an auto-centric location, rather than your personal preference of the car over transit, which would be the case regardless of location.




Whether or not it was 6 years ago is irrelevant. Yonge Street (and Bayview, to a lesser extent) are lined with retail. I've been in this area frequently for my entire life and as far back as I can remember that has been the case. In fact, even before my lifetime that was the case:


Well, people seemed to get by just fine without cars for thousands of years, with even more children at that, and still billions do just that. In many cases (depending on the environment), an automobile would be a mere hindrance to child-rearing.

I'm taking it you live in NY?

I qualified that first statement with the fact that my preference was to walk - or drive. Not bus, not subway, not taxi. That's all. And then, I revised that first statement by agreeing that if that's what you want, then you could live there without a car...not sure why you're so defensive about this?

In my opinion, there was not a lot of great selection for restaurants or shopping while I was there - I didn't say there was nothing. Just not great (relative to many downtown core areas). If that hasn't changed in six years, then I'm surprised.

People did fine with a lot of things for thousands of years, but modern technology has made things a little easier for us :)

When you have kids, get back to me. If you want to live like that (i.e. no car) - have fun!

[miketoronto]

Sorry Miketoronto, but if you "know many people who get along with kids and having no car", get them to post on here...don't speak for them. I can absolutely guarantee it wouldn't be "easier to just roll the stroller onto the bus"...you must have an older kid in your imagined scenario - good luck with a kid under 3. And doing it yourself. On a crowded bus. In a winter storm.

Besides, I'm not sure I get the whole point of doing away with the car...we got them so we can use them. If you (and others on here) are dead-set against using them, great! It's possible. If you want to do it with kids, great again! Have fun. For the vast majority of us, there's just no point.

I disagree IntotheWest. I think your view that people with kids need to drive everywhere just stems from your hatred or dislike of transit.

There is no reason that families can not use transit in addition to cars.
I have taken small kids(my nephews) on transit tons of times. It is not that hard. It all stems from your choices. And just because you have a kid does not mean you can't take the bus to work or something. You don't need to be wedded to a car. And I think it is sad if a kid is just driven everywhere and does not get to enjoy a train ride with mom and dad to downtown or a bike ride to the local bakery, etc.
Two each their own. But no wonder our kids are fat in today's world. Mom and dad think kids need to be in a car all the time.

[flar]

Many of the buses in Hamilton are crowded with strollers. These are mostly teenage mothers who can't afford cars. I really feel for them as they struggle to maneuver their buggies on a crowded bus. Aside from the usual looks of derision single mothers face, everyone gets pissed off at them because they block the aisle and take up too much space. I only know one family (with three kids, as I mentioned before) who don't have a car by choice. I have a baby daughter and I personally couldn't imagine not having a car, it would be a real hassle.

[theman23]

I used the local YRT public transit for the first time in Markham today (I've tried VIVA before), and one of my biggest annoyances was a woman who took forever to get her stroller onto the bus. I happened to miss my transfer, extending what is usually a 10-15 minute drive into a nearly 2 hour journey, with over half of that spent waiting in the hot sun in inappropriate clothing. Might as well have walked.

[socialisthorde]

I disagree IntotheWest. I think your view that people with kids need to drive everywhere just stems from your hatred or dislike of transit.

There is no reason that families can not use transit in addition to cars.
I have taken small kids(my nephews) on transit tons of times. It is not that hard. It all stems from your choices. And just because you have a kid does not mean you can't take the bus to work or something. You don't need to be wedded to a car. And I think it is sad if a kid is just driven everywhere and does not get to enjoy a train ride with mom and dad to downtown or a bike ride to the local bakery, etc.
Two each their own. But no wonder our kids are fat in today's world. Mom and dad think kids need to be in a car all the time.

I agree that kids don't need to be driven everywhere, but I'm not sure anyone said that. I also agree that it would be possible to live with kids without a car, however that would take some big sacrifices. I take my kids on transit all the time, and ride bikes and walk where possible. I just can't figure out how to get an eight year old home from a soccer game in the other end of town at 9 PM by any of these methods (transit would take at least an hour, by which time he would be asleep and need to be carried (60 lbs) two blocks from the bus to home. Could be done, but so could living without heat. Are you willing to go that far? These are the times when we use the car. I suppose I could keep the kid out of soccer, but then he might get fat;)

[Bedford_DJ]

I used the local YRT public transit for the first time in Markham today (I've tried VIVA before), and one of my biggest annoyances was a woman who took forever to get her stroller onto the bus. I happened to miss my transfer, extending what is usually a 10-15 minute drive into a nearly 2 hour journey, with over half of that spent waiting in the hot sun in inappropriate clothing. Might as well have walked.

I take it your city doesn't have ALF buses. Here at least the buses lower down to the curb and theres no stairs so its a simple push into the first row of seats which is always given up. And children ride free here so all you pay is your own way. I don't know where you live but here it takes the same amount of time for someone witha stroller to get on as a person without a stroller. I've seen 3+ srollers lined up on a single bus here before they don't even take up that much space.

[miketoronto]

socialisthorde it sounds like you strike a balance which is fine. No one said you have to take the bus to the soccor game. Although transit should be fast enough to get people even across town fast, if they need it. This stems from our transit systems not offering the proper type of services.

theman23, my bus route has fully low floor, and I see tons of people take strollers onto the bus, and to be honest it takes no time at all. They are on in like 5 seconds. They just roll it on.

Hell I took home a box with chairs that needed to be assembled onto the bus with those wheely things. And to be honest my friend and I sad it was easier then taking the car and trying to fit the box in the trunk, etc. We just rolled it onto the bus, and rolled it off the bus :)

So it can be done even with a stroller.

Not saying a family should not a car. But even a family with kids can cut their car use a lot.
And if I had kids, once they hit a certain age, they would be taking the bus themselves to soccor or hockey or whatever. I see kids all the time on my local bus route who are under 15 riding the bus with their hockey stuff, etc to the rec centre.

I think the issue here is that most of you live in a city where 30 minute bus service is considered frequent, and 45 minute service is the norm. So you can't even think of letting a kid ride the bus to practice, etc. But here in the suburbs of Toronto where buses come every 5 minutes on many routes, it is not as big a deal.

[alps]

I live in Halifax without a car. I don't have any problems, but then again, I'm lucky enough to live on the peninsula, and I'm lucky enough that my job is here as well. Different story if I was in Clayton Park or Dartmouth (certainly more affordable there).

[RicoLance21]

I live, work, and eat in downtown Calgary for the summer without a car, and I am enjoying free C-train rides downtown and occasional C-train trips to malls in the suburbs. So far, it has been a surprisingly wonderful experience, being apart from my inner city house in Edmonton, where I rely more on my car.