Austin & San Antonio

[PTSA]

AT&T moving to Dallas is a wake up call for both areas. Bad bruise to deal with.

Immediate action is required to reposition these two metro areas within a proper position in the global community with respect to prestige and strength. Think of this loss as a call to action to be better.

First you can not be diminished both areas in size and prestige by a lack of a world class airport. If you except this you will be destined to the last rows in a movie theater. It is time to put away the differences between the two metro areas and work together. When the two areas work together as a metroplex then Dallas and other large cities will tremble. You have large growth rates on your side. They do not, and they know it. They will be left in the dust in the end.

On the airport issue, build a brand new one half way between the two cities with 80 gates at a minimum. Don't stop there, plan and eventually build a runway capable of landing the subspace orbital air crafts. Don't stop there, plan separate runway capabilities to accommodate future post space shuttle vehicles. Don't dismiss this as Science fiction. There are plenty of times now that the space shuttle can not land in Florida or California. The next generation of crafts will make this more routine and a common occurrence. You know where it all goes from there. Both will be landing at capable airports in the future but you have to plan now. You have NASA in Texas, work on it. This is a competitive race so it needs to be played as one. Go after an air carrier airport hub (Dallas?). Bring it to the airport from anywhere you can. There are plenty of carriers unhappy with their current status at inefficient hubs. When globalization is a call this will put the globe on your doorstep. This will set you up with a solid platform to build future economic gains.

Oil industry. All the oil companies are at risk in the future. If they do not diversify properly then they will go the way the check printing companies are going. Time to act San Antonio. The San Antonio area is a prime area for solar energy companies. Get them now! Did I mention battery storage technology. Toyota is a risk with each gas price increase. Think alternative transport prototypes. A new industry, involve Toyota. Launch it in San Antonio.

San Antonio. Start acting as a gateway to Latin and South America. Grow this industry. The airport is a start.

Windows. With the rise of the Mac recently the outlook for Dell is a risk. Time to act Austin. There are tons of disgruntled employees with the high cost of living at One Infinite Loop. It's time to start relocation talks. Steve will not be there forever.

Austin is much more suitable to all the high tech companies that are presently located in the Dallas area. Act on it make the necessary changes. Diversify beyond the game industry. You have a terrific pool of talent to do that.

San Antonio. Its time to think Disney. Start the talks. The airport will get you there. Travel and leisure component manufacturing is ideal in San Antonio. Go for it. There are firms on the west coast paying high corporate taxes and dealing with a high cost of living and they may consider a move.

Oh yes, did I mention, with a global airport where will AT&T eventually be?

This should have been anticipated. Global status requires global actions you can not fall asleep at the wheel. As one prominent general once said "The best defense is an offense"

[alexjon]

Thanks for your suggestions, but you forget that San Antonio is a Military Town (tm) and Austin is a College Town (tm) so there will always be incentive to grow industry there, even if it is something like USAA or programmer farms.

[Major AWACS]

Wow, I actually spit up a bit laughing after reading this, I can't tell if you are a teenager with a good imagination or a city booster gone bad but lets look at some of your points then refocus your energy a bit. And to start let me say it is not bad to have plans and dreams for your city, but one must be realistic about it first. Here we go:


AT&T moving to Dallas is a wake up call for both areas. Bad bruise to deal with.

It is not a bruise to Austin. there are no articles in the Austin Biz journal discussing how horrid this is to the Austin Economy, unless I missed it, then please post it here.


Immediate action is required to reposition these two metro areas within a proper position in the global community with respect to prestige and strength. Think of this loss as a call to action to be better.

What exactly should their status and proper position be in your opinion?


First you can not be diminished both areas in size and prestige by a lack of a world class airport. If you except this you will be destined to the last rows in a movie theater.
Austin has a world class airport, especially for a city its size. SAT is renewing its terminals which is good

It is time to put away the differences between the two metro areas and work together. When the two areas work together as a metroplex then Dallas and other large cities will tremble.

No they won’t. Metroplex is actually a marketing term created years ago. It means nothing geographically or demographically but I digress. Cities don’t tremble.
Boston does not tremble at New York. San Diego does not tremble at LA.
Manchester does not Tremble at London

You have large growth rates on your side. They do not, and they know it. They will be left in the dust in the end.
Really, the US census bureau says otherwise. Houston and Dallas are booming (as is much of Texas) On this one you just simply have incorrect information. Hate to burst your bumble.

On the airport issue, build a brand new one half way between the two cities with 80 gates at a minimum.

Why? So San Marcos and New Branfels grow bigger? And business travellers are not happy having to spend an hour to an hour and half to get to the CBD during peak traffic times. Really bad idea.
And spare me the rail argument. Biz travelers don’t jump on the rail bandwagon as often as locals and it would still take 45-60 minutes to hit a CBD, and those are not the full employment nodes in each city. One should actually just work on expanding each airport and making them better (See Austin above). Air travel is hurting right now due to oil at 140$ a barrel. AvGas and JP-8 is going to stay expensive for a while so this is a market both airports must deal with by attracting service and helping established airlines. Plenty of regions and cities have hubs that are smaller than San Antonio. Building an 80 gate airport (absurd concept if you know anything about aviation) is not going to just attract new service. Central Texas is not Dubai and doesn’t have the multi BILLIONs of dollars such a project would entail, especially since the project would fail. And how exactly are you going to attract some world airline or legacy carrier to hub at your big mega-airport that would eat many square miles of central Texas? With new airports if you build it they don’t always come. (See St Louis East as an example)



Don't stop there, plan and eventually build a runway capable of landing the subspace orbital air crafts. Don't stop there, plan separate runway capabilities to accommodate future post space shuttle vehicles.
Right, and how long would that be. I have flown many different types of airplanes and studied a bit of aerospace engineering but didn’t know NASA had changed the policy of landing aircraft with hazardous materials in urban enclaves. When did this change?

Don't dismiss this as Science fiction. There are plenty of times now that the space shuttle can not land in Florida or California.
No it has happened once in 28 years, and the shuttle landed in New Mexico. Other landing spots like Moron, Spain and Banjul, Gambia can be used if needed. NASA likes the shuttle to land in Florida, it saves the million dollars it costs to fly it back from Edwards. Both locations remote and not in population centres.



The next generation of crafts will make this more routine and a common occurrence. You know where it all goes from there. Both will be landing at capable airports in the future but you have to plan now.
Not at 140$ a barrel you don’t.

You have NASA in Texas, work on it. This is a competitive race so it needs to be played as one.
With what money? Easier said than done, not counting the fact NASA is a government agency Central Texas has no control over….


Go after an air carrier airport hub (Dallas?). Bring it to the airport from anywhere you can.
I'm sure American Airlines would love to spend a billion dollars they don't have and move to your super airport and I am sure Dallas and Fort Worth will just let that happen. Easy right :rolleyes:


There are plenty of carriers unhappy with their current status at inefficient hubs.
Really? Who? Hubs have closed due to overlapping markets. You have to of the largest hubs in the country within less than an hour flight from Central Texas. How exactly are you randomly creating new O&D demand in the market for this new hub? Not counting Southwest’s point to point service from the area already.


When globalization is a call this will put the globe on your doorstep. This will set you up with a solid platform to build future economic gains.
The Globe is already on Texas’ doorstep. In Houston and Dallas and Austin, in that order.

Oil industry. All the oil companies are at risk in the future.

Haha, thanks. Energy companies are not going anywhere.

If they do not diversify properly then they will go the way the check printing companies are going. Time to act San Antonio. The San Antonio area is a prime area for solar energy companies. Get them now!
Really, says whom? El Paso has more average days of sunshine and less hail and bad weather…


Did I mention battery storage technology.
Well you just did…

Toyota is a risk with each gas price increase. Think alternative transport prototypes. A new industry, involve Toyota. Launch it in San Antonio.
And again who is paying for that?

San Antonio. Start acting as a gateway to Latin and South America. Grow this industry. The airport is a start.
Its called Geography. San Antonio is out of the way for flights to Central and South America. All it can serve is Mexico, and since there are no connecting oppurtunities all the Mexico traffic is O&D. Miami is north of most of Latin America. It will remain the number one hub. Houston will remain the number 2 hub, with Dallas and Atlanta fighting for 3. Dallas is out of the way for much of the connecting traffic. There is a reason Houston has more service to Mexico than any other US airport, is second to only Miami in cities served in South America. Geography and hub status and O&D to be exact.


Windows. With the rise of the Mac recently the outlook for Dell is a risk.
Really, that 5% market share of Mac is really a threat…

Time to act Austin. There are tons of disgruntled employees with the high cost of living at One Infinite Loop.

Says who again?

It's time to start relocation talks. Steve will not be there forever.
Here is the phone call: “Hi would you like to spend millions moving your company to Austin. No reason really but we have some disgruntled folks that want other jobs” What could we give you? “Well how about a tax abatement that will not fund our infrastructure properly?” Not interested, bummer dude.



Austin is much more suitable to all the high tech companies that are presently located in the Dallas area.
Really? Why? And you know Houston actually has more High Tech jobs than Austin (see US DOL stats) as the former Compaq HQs there is HP and BMC software and many others. Let me guess, you want all those companies to move to Austin also? And your 80 gate airport will need a super huge cargo facility to handle the shipping involved so we are all okay with that…

Act on it make the necessary changes. Diversify beyond the game industry. You have a terrific pool of talent to do that.
Game industry?...

San Antonio. Its time to think Disney. Start the talks.
Another phone call: “Hi Disney, this is San Antonio, come on over”
Don’t get me wrong it is not bad to try and talk with Disney, but you seem to act like all it takes is a phone call and few lap dances on the business trip of the VP of sales to get them to build a new theme park. That is not how business works.

The airport will get you there. Travel and leisure component manufacturing is ideal in San Antonio. Go for it. There are firms on the west coast paying high corporate taxes and dealing with a high cost of living and they may consider a move.
Maybe (your first plausible idea), and to offset the cost of moving you have to give them tax abatements or other deals, and the city still needs money to build infrastructure. One cannot sell bonds forever. It is a balance, but somewhat more realistic.


Oh yes, did I mention, with a global airport where will AT&T eventually be?
Dallas

This should have been anticipated. Global status requires global actions you can not fall asleep at the wheel. As one prominent general once said "The best defense is an offense"
I thought boxer Jack Dempsey said that or was it Stanley Baldwin, oh well matters not.


Refocus your energy and money and making the quality of life in a town better and then the smart growth will come. Being proactive and going after jobs and business is great, but having at least one foot grounded in the realism of the business world is a good idea.

Business (and even government) just doesn't work like you seem to think in a capitalist market. But good luck with all that...

Ciao,
AWACS

[hookem]

Austin isn't really a fortune 500 town, or even a big business town. That's just not our thing. We're more like the central CA coast of Texas. A place where everyone (at least in the state) would like to live if money were no object, but not exactly a big industry town where there are jobs everywhere and you can develop a career. It's more a "bring your own money" city. In that sense, it will continue to grow as the overall state population grows, and some business will come here chasing lifestyle and educated employees. But I wouldn't expect a really big company like AT&T or Walmart to EVER choose Austin, they rely too heavily on lower paid blue-collar employees who just can't afford to live here.

BTW, San Antonio will continue to benefit from their position as the tourist destination for Texas. With fuel prices rising, airport security hassles, and all the new junk fees they charge you, SA will see tourism from within the state rise. Heck, I'd imagine they already have seen a big increase. That, plus the large ex-military population, will be SA's identity more than a big business town IMO.

So, central Texas = Texas' fav Tourist Destination + Texas' fav town to live in. That's what the area is about, might as well embrace it. There are much worse things to be, believe me!

[Texas Tuff]

Austin isn't really a fortune 500 town, or even a big business town. That's just not our thing. We're more like the central CA coast of Texas. A place where everyone (at least in the state) would like to live if money were no object, but not exactly a big industry town where there are jobs everywhere and you can develop a career. It's more a "bring your own money" city. In that sense, it will continue to grow as the overall state population grows, and some business will come here chasing lifestyle and educated employees. But I wouldn't expect a really big company like AT&T or Walmart to EVER choose Austin, they rely too heavily on lower paid blue-collar employees who just can't afford to live here.

BTW, San Antonio will continue to benefit from their position as the tourist destination for Texas. With fuel prices rising, airport security hassles, and all the new junk fees they charge you, SA will see tourism from within the state rise. Heck, I'd imagine they already have seen a big increase. That, plus the large ex-military population, will be SA's identity more than a big business town IMO.

So, central Texas = Texas' fav Tourist Destination + Texas' fav town to live in. That's what the area is about, might as well embrace it. There are much worse things to be, believe me!

Very well put. San Antonio has a lot going for it. IMHO, SA is a great city in its own unique way and shouldn't even try to emulate Dallas, Houston, Austin, or anyplace else. It's a fast growing city for many different reasons, not just because of corporate jobs.

[PTSA]

Capt AWACS

I know it is a little hard to think abstractly beyond the normal everyday response but you see that is the response that is needed here. When central park was proposed in New York City people like you came out of the woodwork everywhere to say it was unrealistic. Imagine Manhattan without central park now. Quite foolish!

It is a bruise to both Austin and San Antonio. Think a little more, corporate board rooms think a bit more beyond what they read in a local paper. I know for a fact that research is being done constantly on market areas to gain an economic edge.

Austin and San Antonio together represent at least the same level of significance as Dallas. Apart they do not. If the mayor of San Antonio wants San Antonio to be a global player then those things that make a global city need to be done.

Both airports are not global airports. Improvements are good but in the end they are only improvements.

Ciities do tremble. Yes they do! You are very wrong. There have been many improvements made, many incentives made, and many deals struck to keep employers within cities and states. To think otherwise is foolish. Metroplex, whatever, I am sure you know what I mean.

The new always beats the old in the end because the old dies. The time lines may be short or long. Dallas and Houston are booming so was LA. It's called critical mass. What happens after you reach that is the item to focus on.

Gas prices will not go down in the long run. I think Portland Oregon has 65 gates. Eighty gates is a good number to look at. You may not build them to their full extent right away but you will have the capability in place. There is a lot of space in Texas last time I was there. Yes, central Texas is not Dubai, (the US should be ashamed of itself to loose the tall building lead to Dubai) but what makes you think Texas can not become a Dubai in the future as far as wealth is concerned. Don't place limitations on your self before you start. Actually the light rail serving PDX proved to be one of the better lines but I rather see heavy rail here to the airport. Oh and yes the corporate individuals we are talking about will find a way to get there in comfort. Yes they can even start using a heliports like in some other urban areas.

NASA is still now in a exploratory mode. This will change. Landings are going to become more common and private companies will start a new industry. I think you summarized it well when you stated that it is very expensive to move the shuttle. All your regions stated are more remote than central Texas.

Try $200 a barrel and going up. Plan now be ready later. It sure makes it easier to talk to NASA when it is already there.

Of course Dallas will not let American Airlines just move (city will tremble). Yes its hard. Who said life was easy. That is the competition you are up against. If you can not take the heat then you need to be in the back rows of the movie theater. HA HA

You are creating demand by combining the demand from two airports too close to each other into one. From there you are building up the economic structure of the area to further add demand. You do not have to offer everything Dallas's airport does now but you want to make sure you can provide the direct service. When the direct service is available that service will be cut back in the other airports. From there you are creating new services not available at the other airports to attract further demand. Ultimately you will rival and then surpass the other airports but you must have the space now to do it later. Dollars spent now are cheaper than dollars spent later so you develop a lead in the money race by acting sooner rather than responding later.

The globe is not there yet at Texas' doorstep. Perhaps to some extent in Dallas. You are fooling yourself.

Oil companies if they do not diversify will go away in a century type changing event just as other companies have done in the past.

We are talking about solar companies, research, production, corporate headquarters not residences with photocells on their roofs. El Paso does not have the necessary prerequisites to keep this kind of a industry going. San Antonio does. There is however competition out there for this industry so sleeping is not a good trait.

You are correct it takes a lot more but if you think about it you will realize that the East coast has Disney in Florida, the West Coast has Disney in Anaheim, and were does the Midwest have Disney? Negotiations are a rough business and don't get me wrong but you do have to start somewhere. When you have a head start in that industry it only makes common sense to continue the lead.

I think it was actually some one from a country neighboring yours that said it, but of course he lost in the end.

If we all grounded our selves in reality we would not get much accomplished in the end, would we. You would be surprised how some decisions are made in the board rooms of corporations and on what petty items.

[Paul in S.A TX]

You guys are so entertaining, I love it. I will say dreams can become reality. What invention or project hasn't started as a dream? I wouldn't vote for you Capt A, if you ran for San Antonio city government. PTSA has vision, even if some goals he mentioned may seem more of a pipe deam. Never say never.

Inland Port San Antonio is agressively courting Latin American countries/companies and others abroad, as a designated foreign trade zone. This could open the door to domestic air traffic to that part of the globe and elsewhere.

http://www.portsanantonio.us/Webpages.asp?wpid=172

http://www.nascocorridor.com/naipn/pages/san_initiative.html

http://www.nascocorridor.com/naipn/pages/san_infra.html


Disney has already looked at San Antonio and has something planned. I think San Antonio is postioned geographically in the central states, that would also draw from Mexico as well. Disney would tap into a $11 billion dollar tourism industry, which would only grow to the scope of Orlando's or larger. San Antonio with all it's history and charm, without a plastic image such as Orlando, Would move it ahead of Orlando imo. Disney put Orlando on the world map.

http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/todd_james_pierce/archive/2008/05/30/looking-back-on-the-disney-mgm-studio-backlot-project-part-3.aspx


Once San Antonio-Austin grow into more of a partnership as we are already seeing, with the Austin-SA Corridor council and ASA rail. This will only strengthen the South-Central Texas region and elevate it as a global competitor. Dallas didn't get where it's at on it's lonesome. Ft Worth and all of North Texas have contributed to the status Dallas enjoys today. San Antonio and Austin seem to be taking baby steps in that direction.

[KeepSanAntonioLame]

I thought that disney thing was a rumor. There was a big thing in the paper a while ago dispelling it.

[Trae]

You guys are so entertaining, I love it. I will say dreams can become reality. What invention or project hasn't started as a dream? I wouldn't vote for you Capt A, if you ran for San Antonio city government. PTSA has vision, even if some goals he mentioned may seem more of a pipe deam. Never say never.

Inland Port San Antonio is agressively courting Latin American countries/companies and others abroad, as a designated foreign trade zone. This could open the door to domestic air traffic to that part of the globe and elsewhere.

http://www.portsanantonio.us/Webpages.asp?wpid=172

http://www.nascocorridor.com/naipn/pages/san_initiative.html

http://www.nascocorridor.com/naipn/pages/san_infra.html


Disney has already looked at San Antonio and has something planned. I think San Antonio is postioned geographically in the central states, that would also draw from Mexico as well. Disney would tap into a $11 billion dollar tourism industry, which would only grow to the scope of Orlando's or larger. San Antonio with all it's history and charm, without a plastic image such as Orlando, Would move it ahead of Orlando imo. Disney put Orlando on the world map.

http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/todd_james_pierce/archive/2008/05/30/looking-back-on-the-disney-mgm-studio-backlot-project-part-3.aspx


Once San Antonio-Austin grow into more of a partnership as we are already seeing, with the Austin-SA Corridor council and ASA rail. This will only strengthen the South-Central Texas region and elevate it as a global competitor. Dallas didn't get where it's at on it's lonesome. Ft Worth and all of North Texas have contributed to the status Dallas enjoys today. San Antonio and Austin seem to be taking baby steps in that direction.

I'll tell you a city that did get where it is on its lonesome...HOUSTON! :)

But honestly, Disney is not building a theme park anywhere, anytime soon, a new airport between the two cities was knocked down in the 80s, and a lot of PTSA's second post in this thread make zero sense.

[Paul in S.A TX]

I thought that disney thing was a rumor. There was a big thing in the paper a while ago dispelling it.

I guess someone didn't to their homework.

[Paul in S.A TX]

I'll tell you a city that did get where it is on its lonesome...HOUSTON! :)

But honestly, Disney is not building a theme park anywhere, anytime soon, a new airport between the two cities was knocked down in the 80s, and a lot of PTSA's second post in this thread make zero sense.

Houston woudn't have gotten to where it's out without Humble. Sorry Trae!

[PTSA]

I think Disney in San Antonio now is a rumor but with some legs to stand on. The airport is a problem. They need one desperately to make it work. Thirty Five gates is a problem. Am I correct that it will have 35 gates when complete?

[Paul in S.A TX]

I'll tell you a city that did get where it is on its lonesome...HOUSTON! :)

But honestly, Disney is not building a theme park anywhere, anytime soon, a new airport between the two cities was knocked down in the 80s, and a lot of PTSA's second post in this thread make zero sense.

I like the Vision in PTSA's post. May not be all that feasible, but one could say it may not be all that far fetched either. I found the post interesting nonetheless, I enjoyed it. :yes:

[PTSA]

You start with a high vision. You never get everything you want but you get more than you think.

You start with a low vision and you are liable to become completely disappointed with what you got.

You start with no vision then you have others give you what they think you deserve. Which is usually what they don't want.

[alexjon]

Texas doesn't need more global cities, we have two. They may not be Alpha cities, but they certainly are powerful economies.

[Trae]

I think Disney in San Antonio now is a rumor but with some legs to stand on. The airport is a problem. They need one desperately to make it work. Thirty Five gates is a problem. Am I correct that it will have 35 gates when complete?

There are no legs to this Disney thing. A Disney in Texas rumor has been going on for over 25 years. Disney isn't coming to Texas. Went from Disney in Sealy, to Disney in San Antonio, to Disney in Katy, to Disney in Orange, and back again. It's not happening.

Houston woudn't have gotten to where it's out without Humble. Sorry Trae!

Oh yeah, thanks Humble, Texas! ;)

Texas doesn't need more global cities, we have two. They may not be Alpha cities, but they certainly are powerful economies.

Yep, Houston and Dallas are Texas' economic powerhouses. San Antonio and Austin, even when combined, don't (and won't) compete. Combined, neither are growing as fast as Houston or Dallas. I don't see that changing in the near future.

I do see Austin pulling ahead of SA, as it attracts more college graduates than San Antonio, and has been growing faster than the Alamo City. San Antonio is still doing just fine.

[urbanactivist]

I'll tell you a city that did get where it is on its lonesome...HOUSTON! :)

But honestly, Disney is not building a theme park anywhere, anytime soon, a new airport between the two cities was knocked down in the 80s, and a lot of PTSA's second post in this thread make zero sense.

Kinda.... a little ole hurricane in 1900 helped...

This thread has gotten very heated. I for one would HATE to see Austin or San Antonio become "more like Dallas or Houston". :yuck: :yuck: :yuck:

They are great for so many reasons as they are. And it's not like they are experiencing negative growth, job loss, or any other problem plaguing some areas of the country. So AT&T left. Big fuggin' deal. That just leaves more room for SA to do something else with.


BTW has anyone noticed the similarities here...

PTSA... Paul in S.A TX

not meaning to start something... I'm just sayin'

[Trae]

PTSA... Paul in S.A TX

not meaning to start something... I'm just sayin'

Oh wow. It is all coming together. Like the pieces on a puzzle.

[oldmanshirt]

Wow, I thought the dreaded Disney rumor only popped up on city-data forums :rolleyes:

Oh wait, I'm not allowed to mention competing forums on here, am I??

[Trae]

You won't get banned here for mentioning another forum like you would at CityData.

[LoneStarMike]

I think Portland Oregon has 65 gates. Eighty gates is a good number to look at. You may not build them to their full extent right away but you will have the capability in place. There is a lot of space in Texas last time I was there.

Austin -already- has the capacity to add gates to give it a maximum of 112, as well as a third parallel runway. Austin doesn't need get rid of what we already have just so we can build another airport miles away from the city center.


You are creating demand by combining the demand from two airports too close to each other into one.


That may work in Dallas/Fort Worth, but those two cities are only 30 miles apart, whereas SAT/AUS are about 70 miles apart.

A large chunk of the existing flights from SAT and AUS go to other nearby cities like Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston, Harlingen, etc. Traffic on those flights already dropped after 9/11 due to the increased times needed to go through security. Although some of that short-haul traffic has recovered, none of those short-haul city-pairs to/from AUS/SAT have fully recovered to the levels they were before 9/11.

If the two cities were to build a joint airport halfway between the two, even more of that short haul traffic would drop. Why would someone from SAT want to drive 45 min to an hour just to get to the airport and still have to arrive at least an hour early, just to take a 40 minute flight to Houston or Dallas? Might as well drive the whole way.

And what about all the convention business San Antonio gets? I've always heard that one of the many reasons
San Antonio is popular as a convention city is because its' airport is close to downtown, which makes it convenient.

What convention attendee is going to want to fly into San Marcos and have to take a 45 minute (at least) shuttle ride down I-35 just to get to the city. An airport much farther away from each city's downtown is not going to help either city's convention business.

Of course, I'm sure the folks in San Marcos/New Braunfels would love it and benefit financially from it.

[LoneStarMike]

I think Disney in San Antonio now is a rumor but with some legs to stand on. The airport is a problem. They need one desperately to make it work. Thirty Five gates is a problem. Am I correct that it will have 35 gates when complete?

The current phase (Contructing Terminals B and C and tearing down Terminal 1) would give SAT 35 gates. But there is a future phase calling for a 21 gate Terminal D which would give SAT 55 gates.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/SATexpansion5.jpg

[Major AWACS]

Capt AWACS

I know it is a little hard to think abstractly beyond the normal everyday response but you see that is the response that is needed here. When central park was proposed in New York City people like you came out of the woodwork everywhere to say it was unrealistic. Imagine Manhattan without central park now. Quite foolish!

It is not hard to think abstractly, it is hard for some to think financially and not think in a vacuum.



It is a bruise to both Austin and San Antonio. Think a little more, corporate board rooms think a bit more beyond what they read in a local paper. I know for a fact that research is being done constantly on market areas to gain an economic edge.
I’m on a corporate board, and as a registered Lobbyist I meet with more politicians than I would ever care too. I can tell you that is not how we think.


Austin and San Antonio together represent at least the same level of significance as Dallas. Apart they do not. If the mayor of San Antonio wants San Antonio to be a global player then those things that make a global city need to be done.

Half of the things you mention don’t exist in New York, Tokyo, London, Mexico City, or Sao Paulo. All global cities


Both airports are not global airports. Improvements are good but in the end they are only improvements.
And they will not become global airports but building a useless 80 (love that random number) gate airport between both cities. Sorry but this is not how aviation works. Part of it is even a Geography problem. As the Boeing 787 comes along you will see more int’l point to point service in medium markets, but not SAT and AUS. This is just simply not how airlines work. You can hope all you want but unless SAT starts running its own airlines you are out of luck.


Ciities do tremble. Yes they do! You are very wrong. There have been many improvements made, many incentives made, and many deals struck to keep employers within cities and states. To think otherwise is foolish. Metroplex, whatever, I am sure you know what I mean.
Give me one example of a city “trembling”. I’ve lived in many on 4 different continents and never seen one tremble. Even the early 80s days in Detroit or Cleveland wasn’t a tremble. Governments of smaller towns can tremble if a government base closes or plant dries up, but big cities do not tremble at each other. I’d love to see your samples of when they have.


The new always beats the old in the end because the old dies. The time lines may be short or long. Dallas and Houston are booming so was LA. It's called critical mass. What happens after you reach that is the item to focus on.
Which is not what you are talking about doing with SAT and AUS.
And last time we all checked on this board LA was still growing and the second biggest metro in the US.


Gas prices will not go down in the long run.
I know, I agree. Working with oil biz before I know it will go up before coming down.

I think Portland Oregon has 65 gates.
I thought it was 43 with jet bridges and commuter parking for a few more (as most airports do with air taxi and commuter service.

Eighty gates is a good number to look at. You may not build them to their full extent right away but you will have the capability in place. There is a lot of space in Texas last time I was there.
You don’t know the geography nor people of the hill country and central Texas.
An airport of the size you suggest would eat up at least 8 square miles of space (at a bare minimum) So finding a spot would be either fare west or east of IH-35 and then you have to get the locals and environmentalists to agree on building it. Central Texans are not big on paving that much land. It would be a hard sell. Then you wouldn’t have transport links and it would take much more time to get to downtown Austin and San Antonio (DFW is 35 miles DT to DT; Austin San Antonio 75) . Now you still haven’t said how you are paying for this roughly 350 billion dollar project (rail airports and infrastructure minimum). I’m all about “dreaming” but you have to have a plan when you throw this stuff out there.



Yes, central Texas is not Dubai, (the US should be ashamed of itself to loose the tall building lead to Dubai)

We haven’t had the tall building “lead” in years. It has been in Asia. Kuala Lumpar, Taipai, Dubai.


but what makes you think Texas can not become a Dubai in the future as far as wealth is concerned. Don't place limitations on your self before you start. Actually the light rail serving PDX proved to be one of the better lines but I rather see heavy rail here to the airport. Oh and yes the corporate individuals we are talking about will find a way to get there in comfort. Yes they can even start using a heliports like in some other urban areas.

So you want heliports and more money spent on oil, when Helos eat more gas than airplanes? So my companies travel budget triples because of the airport between Austin and San Antonio? Ok, good sell. Then you make San Marcos and New Branfels grow more… One is not placing limitations. The “limitations” you speak of are already in place. You have failed to address how you get by them and were this money comes from.


NASA is still now in a exploratory mode. This will change.
Not even sure what that is supposed to mean? NASA was chartered in an exploratory mode. It will never change unless funding is stopped by congress. Cities have no say in the matter.


Landings are going to become more common and private companies will start a new industry. I think you summarized it well when you stated that it is very expensive to move the shuttle. All your regions stated are more remote than central Texas.
Well Moron is 10 miles from Seville, not exactly a small town, but remote enough to be safe. Hydrazine is not a pretty chemical, ask any F-16 driver. NASA doesn’t want it spraying over cities if there is a problem. But you are correct in that private companies will work the rockets for space tourism. West Texas already has a Space Port being built. And at 5-20 million a ride it is not coming to city near you anytime soon, so no need to build a runway with today’s technology in hopes that in 40 years it will be useful.

Try $200 a barrel and going up. Plan now be ready later. It sure makes it easier to talk to NASA when it is already there.
I own one well in Kansas and partner on two in Oklahoma, 200$ makes me happy, though I am not so sure it will go that high unless an outside force comes along like War, gulf storm destroying platforms etc etc.


Of course Dallas will not let American Airlines just move (city will tremble). Yes its hard. Who said life was easy. That is the competition you are up against. If you can not take the heat then you need to be in the back rows of the movie theater. HA HA

Being in the back row at the moves is not a bad thing, you get blow jobs in the back row and sit and make out the whole time. Don’t sell it short. DFW will not AA because AA does not have the money or means to move. We are talking about BILLIONS of dollars here, in an industry barely getting by. SAT or AUS could attract a regional focus city (for reasons I have discussed in other threads) but AA is not moving unless you pay them literally over 70-80 BILLION dollars (minimum) because it costs that much to move an operation. I can expand on why if you like. The question becomes who pays to move them. AA won’t move unless someone else pays (AT&T got incentives from Dallas for example) Do you think the taxpayers of central Texas want to pay that much? That is a massive amount of new taxes.



You are creating demand by combining the demand from two airports too close to each other into one.
No you are inconveniencing people that want to go to either city by making them spend an extra hour travelling to their destination. Why do you think the airports are two close?
Are Hobby and Intercontinental too close? Newark, La Guardia, and JFK? Love field and DFW? LAX, Burbank, Ontario, etc? No of course not. Look at south Florida, MIA, FLL, PBI. Having multi airport options is a GOOD thing in central Texas, not a negative as you seem to say.



From there you are building up the economic structure of the area to further add demand. You do not have to offer everything Dallas's airport does now but you want to make sure you can provide the direct service. When the direct service is available that service will be cut back in the other airports. From there you are creating new services not available at the other airports to attract further demand.
I suggest some airline marketing texts. This is just not how it works.


Ultimately you will rival and then surpass the other airports but you must have the space now to do it later. Dollars spent now are cheaper than dollars spent later so you develop a lead in the money race by acting sooner rather than responding later.
And where are these dollars coming from?


The globe is not there yet at Texas' doorstep. Perhaps to some extent in Dallas. You are fooling yourself.
Actually here is where you show you don’t know anything about Texas. Houston is the much more international city. Over 80 foreign consulates, the largest foreign port in tonnage in the USA, the 8th largest (bigger than Dallas) US foreign Airport gateway with the largest FIS USCIS facility. Houston has more foreigners as well and a more diverse population per the US Census. But both Houston and Dallas are large well known International cities. Trust me, I’ve lived all over the world and see it first hand both in Texas and business overseas. You can read the online information of the organisations I mentioned as well.

Oil companies if they do not diversify will go away in a century type changing event just as other companies have done in the past.
Oil companies are diversified into all types of Energy they are not going anywhere, and until something other than plastic is developed they will be here, even if cars run on water.


We are talking about solar companies, research, production, corporate headquarters not residences with photocells on their roofs.
Production would not be in San Antonio, it again would be in a place with more sunny days per year. This is how the solar business works. Just like the wind industry (which is being run out of Houston and Austin BTW)

El Paso does not have the necessary prerequisites to keep this kind of a industry going. San Antonio does. There is however competition out there for this industry so sleeping is not a good trait.[/quote[
Really what are those prereqs?

[quote]You are correct it takes a lot more but if you think about it you will realize that the East coast has Disney in Florida, the West Coast has Disney in Anaheim, and were does the Midwest have Disney? Negotiations are a rough business and don't get me wrong but you do have to start somewhere. When you have a head start in that industry it only makes common sense to continue the lead.
Central Texas does not have a head start in the industry, thus your first problem.
Yes they could work to bring Disney to SA. That would be huge but it still wouldn’t mean people would want an airport in the middle of nowhere to serve their needs. Don’t forget not everyone loves Disney. There is 6 Flags, Sandusky and plenty of other theme parks to go around.


I think it was actually some one from a country neighboring yours that said it, but of course he lost in the end.
Funny as I google it I see Jack Dempsey said it, but then again Yogi Berra mangled it up a few times to.


If we all grounded our selves in reality we would not get much accomplished in the end, would we.
Dreaming big is great, but sadly this world has constraints (like money). You don’t even advocate a building block approach, and you seem to think this is all happening in a Vacuum. Just for fun lets say SAT and AUS combine an airport as such. Do you think DFW, IAH, ATL, STL, DEN and PHX are going to stand by and let it happy? They won’t tremble but they will fight back as you might say, and work to expand and keep services. None of what you speak of happens in a vacuum, save a private deal with someone like Disney, and even then they could make towns compete.


You would be surprised how some decisions are made in the board rooms of corporations and on what petty items.
No I wouldn’t. I see it each time I go to The Woodlands for mine. In the end it boils down to money.
Ciao,
AWACS

[PTSA]

Deduction is great. You guys are hilarious, but I am about 2,000 miles away from San Antonio.

No one said Dallas or Houston is bad. They are great cities. Although try not looking at San Antonio as your little brother. You know brothers do grow up.

Who said there is no room for another global city. That is just an opinion.

Why can't you have a global city and a great society at the same time.

Is this not our goal in the long run. Visions create our reality or we would not have the wheel, car, plane, etc.

What is the purpose of taunting that goes on between Austin and San Antonio? Would this energy be used better in a common cause?

I just think both San Antonio and Austin need to work together and put aside their differences to accomplish something greater then they can do alone.

[alexjon]

What is the purpose of taunting that goes on between Austin and San Antonio? Would this energy be used better in a common cause?

Wow, you really aren't from Texas, are you? Texas is all about smack-talking and trying to look bigger than life. We're also about moving at our own pace. One thing we don't do is screw eachother over so I don't know why you're so utterly fascinated with the idea that Austin and San Antonio have to conspire to move into a place they really couldn't care to get to in such a heated rush.

[Trae]

Deduction is great. You guys are hilarious, but I am about 2,000 miles away from San Antonio.

No one said Dallas or Houston is bad. They are great cities. Although try not looking at San Antonio as your little brother. You know brothers do grow up.

But SA will never be larger than Houston or Dallas.

Who said there is no room for another global city. That is just an opinion.

There just isn't. Look at California.

Why can't you have a global city and a great society at the same time.

What?

Is this not our goal in the long run. Visions create our reality or we would not have the wheel, car, plane, etc.

What is the purpose of taunting that goes on between Austin and San Antonio? Would this energy be used better in a common cause?

I just think both San Antonio and Austin need to work together and put aside their differences to accomplish something greater then they can do alone.

k.

[oldmanshirt]

Since solar power came up, here's an article from SA E-N I thought I'd share (its pretty long, btw):

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/environment/stories/MYSA062908.01A.Solar.3fee0cb.html

[M1EK]

Paul and PTSA, hate to break it to you, but in terms of business, Austin has a lot more in common with Dallas and Houston than with San Antonio. The only time we even think about San Antonio is when we're going to Sea World (and one time when I flew out of SAT because I got a great deal on airfare).

[Paul in S.A TX]

Paul and PTSA, hate to break it to you, but in terms of business, Austin has a lot more in common with Dallas and Houston than with San Antonio. The only time we even think about San Antonio is when we're going to Sea World (and one time when I flew out of SAT because I got a great deal on airfare).

Wrong! San Antonio has a diversified economy as does Houston and Dallas. Austin to a much lesser degree.

[PTSA]

Thanks for the SA airport information.

Capt A
We just disagree. Yes the building block option should be used for the airport I am for that. Never said it was not. I was told 65 gates at PDX by a port official and I am just quoting him. We can not compare proximity of airports in urban areas of 17 million population to SA and Austin. Florida cities are not good comparisons due to high retirement and holiday travel. Money is a difficult item to secure I agree but you have to start with a vision first. Yes Houston is cosmopolitan I agree. But when you think gateways New York, Chicago, LA come first as far as the image is concerned. SA does have a head start in the tourism industry. The river walk is a very attractive and unique destination. I have never talked to anyone that did not like it.

Others
It was not very long ago that the Dallas and Houston began competing and surpassed some of the major US cities in population. SA can do it also so do not count it out. What I am telling you guys is that in various research databases and abstracts SA looks really good not to be notice. It is something that has just occurred in the last ten years.

Alexjon
No, I am not from Texas but you are not doing a good job of marketing it either. Your other remarks do not even justify an answer. Why are you in Seattle anyway.

Others
Sad to see there is such a negative obstacle between Austin and San Antonio. I always thought it was there but not to such an extent.

[alexjon]

Alexjon
No, I am not from Texas but you are not doing a good job of marketing it either. Your other remarks do not even justify an answer. Why are you in Seattle anyway.

Because it's hot in Texas. Why do you care so much about South and Central Texas?

It's no lie when they say Texas is like its own little country.

[sakyle04]

Because it's hot in Texas. Why do you care so much about South and Central Texas?

It's no lie when they say Texas is like its own little country.

if my company offered me a job in seattle, portland, or any place in between, i would be gone in a heartbeat.

alexjon is my hero and the source of all of my envy. :yes:

[Trae]

Wrong! San Antonio has a diversified economy as does Houston and Dallas. Austin to a much lesser degree.

Could you elaborate? To me, it seems like M1EK is right. There is a reason why Houston, Austin, and Dallas made the "Best Cities for College Graduates" list and not San Antonio. It seems to me that SA's economy is mostly tied to blue-collar industries (much more than the other three cities). Nothing wrong with that at all.

[Paul in S.A TX]

San Antonio has a diversified economy moreso than Austin's by a good margin. Austin is more Tech and Government. San Antonio's economy swings it's bat in every direction. The largest Finance, Governement National Defense, Manufaturing, Healthcare Biomedical. Then there is convention and tourism, which is enormous. Austin can't touch San Antonio on those strengths. Austin wins in High Tech industry and that would be it.

The article below is dated Oct, 2005, right before the San Antonio boom. I'm sure it has gotten even better.


http://www.sanantonio.gov/news/NewsMayorCouncil/nrfinanceindustry.asp?res=1280&ver=true



Finance industry emerges as San Antonio's leading economic generator

- Committee presents initial findings of study of finance industry in San Antonio -

A new economic impact study shows that San Antonio’s financial industry is the city’s leading economic engine, generating more than $20 billion a year in jobs that earn an average annual salary of $52,612.

The numbers were compiled as a result of a study led by Finance San Antonio, the ad hoc committee created last July by the San Antonio City Council at the request of District 8 City Councilman Art A. Hall, which has the task of assessing the city’s finance industry.

Terry Brechtel, Finance San Antonio committee chair, said that the data compiled by the city’s Economic Development Department along with representatives from the Federal Reserve Bank asserts that the finance industry is the largest economic generator for San Antonio and the study is conservative and comparable to other previous industry studies.

Sectors included in the study are banking and credit, investment activities, insurance, funds, trusts and other financial vehicles, accounting and bookkeeping.

The total economic impact of the finance industry is $20.5 billion and it provides 50,469 jobs with total wages at $2.66 billion. The average annual wage for the industry is $52,612 compared to the average wage in San Antonio of $33,911. This data was compiled using data from 2004.

When compared to the aerospace, healthcare, hospitality and information technology industries, the finance industry:

registers the largest economic impact by almost double the second-ranked industry (healthcare)
pays the highest average wages
pays the second highest amount of total wages
employs the third largest number of people, and
this study further substantiates that San Antonio has a diversified economy.
In addition, San Antonio’s employment numbers in finance and insurance top other major Texas cities including Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston and Austin.

“It is time for us to look at the finance industry in a different way and focus on its strengths to help further solidify other economic generators such as the bioscience technology, hospitality, information technology, telecommunications, automotive manufacturing, logistical/distribution, and aircraft maintenance industries,” said Brechtel.

The committee will continue to conduct research on the economic impact of the finance industry in San Antonio. They will also hire a consultant to conduct a gap analysis and provide input regarding methods for encouraging the growth of the industry. A final presentation and additional findings will be presented to the mayor and city council in December.

“For years San Antonio has sold itself short in terms of perception of quality of employment and range of wages, but recent studies including this one, are helping to reshape our view of San Antonio,” said District 8 City Councilman Art A. Hall. “There is much to be done, but by developing an action plan to help strengthen the finance and insurance sector of our economy, and help build the rest of our economy through increased resources, we have the chance to truly impact, for the better, the future of San Antonio.

“These results put us in a different class of city. By having finance as our leading industry changes the way we and others will view San Antonio.”

Members of the Finance San Antonio Ad Hoc Committee are:

Terry M. Brechtel, Chair
Michael Burke, MDB Capital Ventures
Alan Chesler, Ehrenberg Chesler
Karen Diaz, Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas
Randy Goldsmith, The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio
Don Gonzales, Estrada Hinojosa & Co.
Jim Greenwood, Valero
Doug Heath, SBC
Mario Hernandez, San Antonio Economic Development Foundation
Bill McCartney, USAA
Lanham Napier, Rackspace Managed Hosting
Alex Perez, Cox Smith and Matthews
Keith Phillips, Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas
Laura Powell, UBS Paine Weber
Carlos Resendez, Presidio Asset Management
Jorge Rodriguez, Coastal Securities
Raul Rodriguez, North American Development Bank
Robert Rodriguez, Southwestern Capital Markets
Mickey Roth, Intercontinental Asset Management
Floyd Wilson, Frost Bank
Ramiro Cavazos, City of San Antonio Economic Development Department, Ex Officio
Milo Nitschke, City of San Antonio Finance Department, Ex Officio
Staff members supporting this committee include:

Dr. Steven Nivin, City of San Antonio Economic Development Department
Albert Garza, City of San Antonio Economic Development Department
Marina Sifuentes, City of San Antonio Economic Development Department
About Finance San Antonio Ad Hoc Committee

On July 14, 2005, the San Antonio City Council, at the request of District 8 City Councilman Art A. Hall, created the Finance San Antonio Ad Hoc Committee, whose purpose is to make recommendations to the city council on actions that could be taken to increase the attractiveness of San Antonio to the financial industry and further promote the development of this sector of the city’s economy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Trae]

San Antonio has a diversified economy moreso than Austin's by a good margin. Austin is more Tech and Government. San Antonio's economy swings it's bat in every direction. The largest Finance, Governement National Defense, Manufaturing, Healthcare Biomedical. Then there is convention and tourism, which is enormous. Austin can't touch San Antonio on those strengths. Austin wins in High Tech industry and that would be it.

Wait what?

Austin: Government (I mean it is the state capital), high-tech, and entertainment (movies, gaming, etc.).

San Antonio: service military, healthcare, and tourism.

And I would lean more to giving Austin finance and banking than I would San Antonio.

The difference in each city's economies can be seen in the demographics of the metro areas of both places.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Could you elaborate? To me, it seems like M1EK is right. There is a reason why Houston, Austin, and Dallas made the "Best Cities for College Graduates" list and not San Antonio. It seems to me that SA's economy is mostly tied to blue-collar industries (much more than the other three cities). Nothing wrong with that at all.

Trae and Mike sorry but you're bubbles have bursted.;)

[alexjon]

Well, San Antonio's economy is growing faster and SA has a bigger GDP, but the population difference changes wealth distribution and since it's a small difference in GDP (2 billion or so diff at this point), it's very noticeable. San Antonio also has a smaller amount of visibly wealthy professions, preferring to distribute wealth to CEOs and CFOs and COOs in the Dominion.

[Trae]

Trae and Mike sorry but you're bubbles have bursted.;)

How?

[alexjon]

How?

Probably using raw facts (like the GDPs) without any backing or grounding in reality.

Unless the Per Capita Income of the two cities changed overnight...

[Trae]

PTSA, you say you are 2,000 miles away from SA. What city do you live in?

[Jdawgboy]

Once again San Antonionians are trying to use that suprerior attitude toward Austin but I think that is soon comming to an end. As mentioned ealier there is no need for Austin to move to a new airport because our airport already has room to grow, to outgrow SAT for sure even if SA built a new airport it would be years away from getting to what Austin has now. Fact... ABIA already has a runway that can hold the largest planes in the world and by the way for those who may remember back in the early 90's the space shuttle landed at Bergstrom I think in 93. 12250 feet Only DFW has a runway comparable, not sure how long Houston's longest runway is.
Paul, I don't know why you love to push Austin down saying that it has nothing on San Antonio when clearly we do. Our economy, our workforce, and our population growth are more than enough to be proud of our city. Coupled with national rankings, we are in no way out of your city's league. I could care less if Austin ever passes SA in population. Either way there is a reason why you like to bash Austin and its because of how successful this city really is. You said it ealier on the other thread how your tired of hearing people say how wonderful Austin is, well get used to it. I doubt that is going to change anytime soon.

[Trae]

Houston's longest runway for now is 12,001 feet long. Midland has one over 12,000 feet, too.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Probably using raw facts (like the GDPs) without any backing or grounding in reality.

Unless the Per Capita Income of the two cities changed overnight...

We are talking which city is more diversified San Antonio or Austin. Not which one has a higher per capita imcome. Anyway found this list interesting thought I would share it with you guys.




Top 50 MSAs by Per Capita Personal Income and Total Personal Income:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Bureau of Economic Analysis just released data for Total and Per Capita Income for 2006. The first list ranks the 50 MSAs with the highest Per Capita Incomes (there are about 380 MSAs in total). The Northeast is well represented in this list with 15... and has the top (by FAR) MSA in Bridgeport, CT. Both large and small MSAs residing in the BosWash corridor dominate this list (many of these can thank NYC for their high wages)... while the only "interior Northeast" metro to make the list is Pittsburgh.

http://bea.gov/newsreleases/regional...ewsrelease.htm

Rank, Metropolitan Area, Per Capita Income, Annual Growth Rate
1 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT $71,901 +6.9%
2 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA $55,801 +6.2%
3 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA $53,533 +6.1%
4 Naples-Marco Island, FL $53,265 +7.6%
5 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-MD-VA-WV $51,207 +5.2%
6 Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA $50,085 +6.2%
7 Sebastian-Vero Beach, FL $49,305 +6.7%
8 Trenton-Ewing, NJ $48,964 +6.6%
9 New York-Northern-New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA $48,397 +6.9%
10 Boulder, CO $48,324 +5.4%
11 Napa, CA $46,286 +6.0%
12 Barnstable Town, MA $46,258 +5.2%
13 Santa Cruz-Watsonville, CA $45,849 +7.5%
14 Casper, WY $45,814 +10.5%
15 Midland, TX $45,274 +10.8%
16 Denver-Aurora, CO $44,299 +4.6%
17 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA $44,228 +6.3%
18 Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT $44,194 +4.3%
19 Sarasota-Bradenton-Venice, FL $44,042 +5.9%
20 Minneapolis-St Paul-Bloomington, MN $43,696 +3.8%
21 Baltimore-Towson, MD $43,549 +5.4%
22 Reno-Sparks, NV $43,209 +4.7%
23 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD $42,988 +5.6%
24 San Diego-Carslbad-San Marcos, CA $42,797 +5.5%
25 Santa Rosa-Petaluma, CA $42,738 +5.7%
26 Santa Barbara-Santa Maria-Goleta, CA $42,385 +4.7%
27 Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA $42,342 +4.9%
28 Manchester-Nashua, NH $41,895 +5.1%
29 Ocean City, NJ $41,651 +5.3%
30 Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX $41,429 +5.7%
31 Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI $41,161 +5.7%
32 New Haven-Milford, CT $41,094 +5.0%
33 Norwich-New London-CT $41,019 +4.4%
34 Madison, WI $40,671 +4.3%
35 Santa Fe, NM $40,500 +6.8%
36 Ann Arbor, MI $40,381 +1.7%
37 Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI $40,316 +5.6%
38 Anchorage, AK $40,137 +4.5%
39 Carson City, NV $39,958 +5.4%
40 Cheyenne, WY $39,936 +8.7%
41 Miami-Ft Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL $39,628 +5.7%
42 Des Moines-West Des Moines, IA $39,579 +4.9%
43 Pittsfield, MA $39,463 +5.0%
44 Omaha-Council Bluffs, NE-IA $39,448 +5.4%
45 Dallas-Ft Worth-Arlington, TX $39,187 +5.3%
46 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA $39,011 +6.2%
47 Worcester, MA $38,814 +5.3%
48 Pittsburgh, PA $38,717 +6.0%
49 Rochester, MN $38,715 +3.2%
50 Honolulu, HI $38,689 +5.1%


The following Top 50 list is MSAs ranked by Total Personal Income... basically the sum total of all income collected by everyone over age 16 in the MSA. It's relatively similar to the Top 50 MSAs ranked by population... but there are some noticeable differences. Small Bridgeport, CT MSA jumps to 30 thanks to its incredible per capita income. The Northeast has 10 MSAs on this list... with NYC, of course, being No. 1. Washington and Philly also occupy the Top 5. Rochester just missed the list at No. 51. The TPI is in millions.

1. New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA $910,760
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA $505,197
3. Chicago-Naperville-Joliet, IL-IN-WI $391,262
4. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV $270,903
5. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD $250,482
6. Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX $235,277
7. San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA $233,248
8. Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX $229,517
9. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH $223,140
10. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL $216,523
11. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA $184,186
12. Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI $170,600
13. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA $144,337
14. Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI $138,735
15. Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ $136,972
16. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA $125,885
17. Baltimore-Towson, MD $115,770
18. Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA $111,869
19. Denver-Aurora, CO $106,706
20. St. Louis, MO-IL $104,202
21. San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA $95,671
22. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL $94,311
23. Pittsburgh, PA $91,790
24. Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, OR-WA $79,399
25. Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH $78,371
26. Sacramento-Arden-Arcade-Roseville, CA $77,056
27. Cincinnati-Middletown, OH-KY-IN $76,521
28. Kansas City, MO-KS $74,266
29. Orlando-Kissimmee, FL $65,459
30. Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT $64,743
31. Las Vegas-Paradise, NV $64,543
32. Indianapolis-Carmel, IN $63,058
33. Columbus, OH $62,698
34. San Antonio, TX $62,110
35. Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI $60,876
36. Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord, NC-SC $60,508
37. Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA $59,967
38. Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC $57,062
39. Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro-Franklin, TN $56,026
40. Austin-Round Rock, TX $54,955
41. Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT $52,540
42. Jacksonville, FL $46,314
43. Richmond, VA $45,122
44. Memphis, TN-MS-AR $44,758
45. Louisville-Jefferson County, KY-IN $43,257
46. Birmingham-Hoover, AL $41,399
47. Oklahoma City, OK $41,278
48. New Orleans-Metairie-Kenner, LA $39,290
49. Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY $38,335
50. Raleigh-Cary, NC $36,905
__________________

[Paul in S.A TX]

Once again San Antonionians are trying to use that suprerior attitude toward Austin but I think that is soon comming to an end. As mentioned ealier there is no need for Austin to move to a new airport because our airport already has room to grow, to outgrow SAT for sure even if SA built a new airport it would be years away from getting to what Austin has now. Fact... ABIA already has a runway that can hold the largest planes in the world and by the way for those who may remember back in the early 90's the space shuttle landed at Bergstrom I think in 93. 12250 feet Only DFW has a runway comparable, not sure how long Houston's longest runway is.
Paul, I don't know why you love to push Austin down saying that it has nothing on San Antonio when clearly we do. Our economy, our workforce, and our population growth are more than enough to be proud of our city. Coupled with national rankings, we are in no way out of your city's league. I could care less if Austin ever passes SA in population. Either way there is a reason why you like to bash Austin and its because of how successful this city really is. You said it ealier on the other thread how your tired of hearing people say how wonderful Austin is, well get used to it. I doubt that is going to change anytime soon.


I know Austin is the shit but I'm just saying San Antonio has a more diversified economy. Thats it. Together Austin and San Antonio will be a global region to reckon with.

[oldmanshirt]

Is it too early for this?

:lockd: :lockd: :lockd:

[JACKinBeantown]

Trains! Trains! Trains!

The key to future transportation in Mag-Lev (all budgetary constraints aside). Austin and San Antonio's downtowns are approximately 75 miles apart. Think of them as a metroplex and you obviously need nigh speed train service. Business can be conducted in both downtowns in the same day and you wouldn't need to ever get into a car. People can travels from SA to UT football games and back. Austinites will become bigger Spurs fans (and the NBA will care more about the team. People won't drive on I-35 surrounded by 18-wheelers. There are so many great potential connection between elements of the cities that will grow with easy travel.

Go SA-Austin / Austin-SA!

[Trae]

^^Yes, too early. This is fun. :D

I know Austin is the shit but I'm just saying San Antonio has a diversified economy. Thats it.

Yes.

Together Austin and San Antonio will be a global region to reckon with.

No. This actually made me laugh. A combined Austin and San Antonio region would not be much different than say Minneapolis-St. Paul. Not a "global region to reckon with".

But I do hope the ASA Rail thing gets going soon. That would be great for the region.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Once again San Antonionians are trying to use that suprerior attitude toward Austin but I think that is soon comming to an end. As mentioned ealier there is no need for Austin to move to a new airport because our airport already has room to grow, to outgrow SAT for sure even if SA built a new airport it would be years away from getting to what Austin has now. Fact... ABIA already has a runway that can hold the largest planes in the world and by the way for those who may remember back in the early 90's the space shuttle landed at Bergstrom I think in 93. 12250 feet Only DFW has a runway comparable, not sure how long Houston's longest runway is.
Paul, I don't know why you love to push Austin down saying that it has nothing on San Antonio when clearly we do. Our economy, our workforce, and our population growth are more than enough to be proud of our city. Coupled with national rankings, we are in no way out of your city's league. I could care less if Austin ever passes SA in population. Either way there is a reason why you like to bash Austin and its because of how successful this city really is. You said it ealier on the other thread how your tired of hearing people say how wonderful Austin is, well get used to it. I doubt that is going to change anytime soon.

Hah, actualy Austin people in general bash San Antonio far and wide. San Antonio and it's people are not trash talkers, only if provoked, they will only defend themselves. I never trash talk Austin, I might say San Antonio is stronger in certain areas, but, only if it is the truth.;)

[DruidCity]

I never trash talk Austin, I might say San Antonio is stronger in certain areas, but, only if it is the truth.

Buda beats both, because it is home to the wiener dog races and the Anti Monkey Butt Corporation: http://www.antimonkeybutt.com/aboutus.html :haha:

[Schertz1]

When you think of U.S. global cities, Houston and Dallas do not come to mind.
N.Y.C., Chicago, L.A. S.F., Las Vegas and Miami do.

Also the San Antonio/Austin region is already larger then Minneapolis/St. Paul. Even with the loss of AT&T, San Antonio is still equal to Minneapolis in F500 companies.

The shuttle has landed in San Antonio many times in the past.

[Trae]

When you think of U.S. global cities, Houston and Dallas do not come to mind.
N.Y.C., Chicago, L.A. S.F., Las Vegas and Miami do.

Really? Obviously NYC, Chicago, LA, and even San Francisco come to mind, but funny that you say Las Vegas and Miami. Both are just large world tourist places, especially Las Vegas. Nothing there makes it a global city. Miami has some that do though. Find Las Vegas for me:

http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/images/world.gif

Also the San Antonio/Austin region is already larger then Minneapolis/St. Paul. Even with the loss of AT&T, San Antonio is still equal to Minneapolis in F500 companies.

The shuttle has landed in San Antonio many times in the past.

Still not by much. And even then, Austin-San Antonio would still only compare to cities like Denver and Phoenix. Not become a "global region to reckon with".

[Paul in S.A TX]

Really? Obviously NYC, Chicago, LA, and even San Francisco come to mind, but funny that you say Las Vegas and Miami. Both are just large world tourist places, especially Las Vegas. Nothing there makes it a global city. Miami has some that do though. Find Las Vegas for me:

http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/images/world.gif



Still not by much. And even then, Austin-San Antonio would still only compare to cities like Denver and Phoenix. Not become a "global region to reckon with".

San Antonio alone has more F-500 than Denver, Phoenix has one. Phoenix is more of a retirement community. San Antonio-Austin combined would be far and above both Denver and Phoenix economically. Population size, San Antonio is right behind Denver.

[MichaelB]

I really dread these threads that turn into "comparative masturbation".

[Dom"n"Converse]

Wait what?

Austin: Government (I mean it is the state capital), high-tech, and entertainment (movies, gaming, etc.).

San Antonio: service military, healthcare, and tourism.

And I would lean more to giving Austin finance and banking than I would San Antonio.

The difference in each city's economies can be seen in the demographics of the metro areas of both places.
If you look at this PDF (http://www.sanantonio.gov/edd/pdfs/bracpdfs/DODimpactreport.pdf) on page 10, you can see for yourself, Paul is actually correct.

[bluedogok]

The shuttle has landed in San Antonio many times in the past.
Not on space re-entry, I am pretty sure it has only landed at Edwards AFB in California and the Cape in Florida. It has flown on the back of a 747 carrying it from Edwards to Florida, that is when it probably had a stop over in SA. It has also landed at Tinker AFB, Altus AFB and I think Barksdale AFB on this cross country trip in the past. As Capt. stated, they try to land in Florida since it is very expensive to move it from California using this method. The former Clinton-Sherman AFB (now Oklahoma Spaceport) in Burns Flat (Western Oklahoma) has a 13,502 ft runway and could be used as an alternate landing site for space re-entry, but it never has been used for that.


Apple is in the middle of building out a much larger facility here in Austin.

[Trae]

San Antonio alone has more F-500 than Denver, Phoenix has one. Phoenix is more of a retirement community. San Antonio-Austin combined would be far and above both Denver and Phoenix economically. Population size, San Antonio is right behind Denver.

You must not know Denver. Fortune 500 companies are not the only thing that makes a metropolitan area.

Also, you would have to add in Boulder real soon to Denver's metro, and Colorado Springs is sprawling north, as Denver is sprawling south with its rail line and all.

If you look at this PDF (http://www.sanantonio.gov/edd/pdfs/bracpdfs/DODimpactreport.pdf) on page 10, you can see for yourself, Paul is actually correct.

Yeah, he's right on finance.

[78705]

OK. Felt I should chime in on this part of the convo...

I know for a fact that San Antonio was once in the running for a new Disney park. The developer that built up the Cantera resorts and parks (La Cantera, Hill Country Hyatt, Sea World, Six Flags) had tentative "plans" to bring Disney into the area. (I've seen a picture of the developer and Michael Eisner stepping out of a helicopter on the plot of land that was under consideration.)

This was all before the Euro-Disney flop. After that fiasco, the talks ceased.

SO, there is some truth to the Disney rumors. However, the plans went nowhere.

[Paul in S.A TX]

You must not know Denver. Fortune 500 companies are not the only thing that makes a metropolitan area.

Also, you would have to add in Boulder real soon to Denver's metro, and Colorado Springs is sprawling north, as Denver is sprawling south with its rail line and all.



Yeah, he's right on finance.



Just finance? Hmm... ok.:rolleyes:

San Antonio is such a service town huh? Thanks Dom for the link.

[Trae]

Just finance? Hmm... ok.:rolleyes:

San Antonio is such a service town huh?

Yeah. There is a reason why the college graduates head to Houston, DFW, and Austin more.

Like I already said, San Antonio id more blue-collar than the other three, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Yeah. There is a reason why the college graduates head to Houston, DFW, and Austin more.

Like I already said, San Antonio id more blue-collar than the other three, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Finance, Govt- National Defense, Bio-Med-Heath care, blue Collar type jobs? The smaller industries are Aerospace and Hospitality. I would like to see current breakdown of all Texas cities. I'll do some research a bit later. A Diversified economy does not equal a mostly Blue Collar town. Can't go by those lil rankings by a business magazine. They are not always accurate.

[oldmanshirt]

Like I already said, San Antonio id more blue-collar than the other three, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Allergies gettin to you, dude? :haha:

[Trae]

Allergies gettin to you, dude? :haha:

Yeah. :haha:

Finance, Govt- National Defense, Bio-Med-Heath care, blue Collar type jobs? The smaller industries are Aerospace and Hospitality. I would like to see current breakdown of all Texas cities. I'll do some research a bit later. A Diversified economy does not equal a mostly Blue Collar town. Can't go by those lil rankings by a business magazine. They are not always accurate.

It's true. SA is more of a blue-collar town than the other cities. Do you honestly think national defense and tourism are white-collar jobs? It is a diverse economy, but diverse by the different amount of blue-collar jobs there ;).

But I can't wait to see your research.

[NBTX11]

Whoever said it takes an hour and a half to get from NB or SM to downtown, is wrong. I live in New Braunfels and drive to San Antonio every day. I can get to downtown in 30-40 minutes, maybe a little more depending on traffic. It is only 30something miles. It never takes an hour and and a half unless there is a major accident.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Yeah. :haha:



It's true. SA is more of a blue-collar town than the other cities. Do you honestly think national defense and tourism are white-collar jobs? It is a diverse economy, but diverse by the different amount of blue-collar jobs there ;).

But I can't wait to see your research.


Ah... I think all cities a have bit of everything. Some more than others. I never said San Antonio doesn't have blue collar jobs. Dallas has them and so does Houston. San Antonio being diversified and Finance, DOD, and Healthcare being it's largest industries, I would say that cleary states it's not more Blue collar.




Top 10 best Blue Collar jobs.
Top 10 blue-collar jobs Rank Occupation Annual pay Search
1
Elevator installers and repairers
$63,620
Job listings on MSN Careers

2
Locomotive engineers
$57,990
Job listings on MSN Careers

3
Electrical and electronics repairers
$57,400
Job listings on MSN Careers

4
Railroad conductors and yard masters
$55,530
Job listings on MSN Careers

5
Power-plant operators
$55,000
Job listings on MSN Careers

6
Ship engineers
$54,820
Job listings on MSN Careers

7
Construction and mining supervisors
$53,850
Job listings on MSN Careers

8
Gas-plant operators
$53,670
Job listings on MSN Careers

9
Farm managers
$52,070
Job listings on MSN Careers

10
Transportation inspectors
$50,370
Job listings on MSN Careers


Here is another list of blue collar jobs.
http://www.careerbuilder.com/jobseeker/careerbytes/CBArticle.aspx?articleid=786&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=7471adcf0ca547d4b0870c84b28a7e18-268188135-JG-5


San Antonio employment numbers Show more white collar jobs than Blue or service type driven city.


National Defense-DOD 195,075 (2006) More White than Blue
Healthcare-Bio-Medical 112,762 (2005) White
Finance 56,000 highest in Texas (2006) White
Real Estate 131,000 (2005) White
Manufacturing 52,786 (2006) Blue/White
Higher Education 17,134 (2004) White
Creative 12,000 (2003) White
IT 11,283 (2004) White
Aerospace Over 15,000 (2006)Blue/White
Hospitality over 100,000 (2006)Blue/ White

[Trae]

National Defense is definitely more blue collar than white.

Also, what good does it do posting a list of the highest paid blue-collar jobs? And yes, every city has blue-collar jobs, it just seems like San Antonio has, and gets more of them (Toyota, those Data Centers, etc). SA also has a very good balance of white collar jobs, so it definitely is not a Pittsburgh, or other Rust Belt city.

Dallas, and especially Houston has them (with the Port, refineries, etc.), but Houston also has all of those shiny office buildings where people sit up in offices.

[Paul in S.A TX]

http://www.austinchamber.com/DoBusiness/GreaterAustinProfile/workforce.html


Leading Employment Sectors –San Antonio MSA as of APRIL 2008

Sector Employment

Total Nonagricultural 848,400
Government 155,600
Trade, Transportation & Utilities 150,300
Education & Health Services 117,600
Professional & Business Services 105,800
Leisure/Hospitality 99,200
Financial Activities 65,300
Mining & Construction 55,100
Manufacturing 48,300
Other Services 29,700
Information 21,500
TOTAL NON FARM EMPLOYMENT 823,900 Total Labor force 928,766
Source: Texas Workforce Commission, Texas Labor Market Review



Austin

Employment by Industry
Employment by Industry, Austin MSA
2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
Total non-farm 653,000 667,400 692,200 723,200 757,300
Construction, natural
resources, & mining 37,400 37,700 40,200 44,600 48,600
Manufacturing 57,700 57,400 57,300 58,900 60,000
Wholesale trade 33,700 35,400 37,400 38,500 41,200
Retail trade 67,800 69,100 72,700 76,300 81,100
Transportation, warehousing,
& utilities 10,600 11,000 11,700 12,600 13,400
Information 20,800 20,500 21,500 21,800 21,900
Financial activities 39,500 40,000 41,200 43,300 45,000
Professional & business services 85,600 89,100 94,100 99,600 106,700
Educational & health Services 66,000 68,400 71,100 73,800 76,600
Leisure & hospitality 63,800 67,100 69,700 74,300 78,400
Other services 24,500 26,000 26,500 27,700 28,200
Government 145,600 145,800 148,900 152,000 156,300

Employment by Industry 2007

[Trae]

http://www.austinchamber.com/DoBusiness/GreaterAustinProfile/workforce.html


Leading Employment Sectors –San Antonio MSA as of APRIL 2008

Sector Employment

Total Nonagricultural 848,400
Government 155,600
Trade, Transportation & Utilities 150,300
Education & Health Services 117,600
Professional & Business Services 105,800
Leisure/Hospitality 99,200
Financial Activities 65,300
Mining & Construction 55,100
Manufacturing 48,300
Other Services 29,700
Information 21,500
TOTAL NON FARM EMPLOYMENT 823,900 Total Labor force 928,766
Source: Texas Workforce Commission, Texas Labor Market Review



Austin

Employment by Industry
Employment by Industry, Austin MSA
2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
Total non-farm 653,000 667,400 692,200 723,200 757,300
Construction, natural
resources, & mining 37,400 37,700 40,200 44,600 48,600
Manufacturing 57,700 57,400 57,300 58,900 60,000
Wholesale trade 33,700 35,400 37,400 38,500 41,200
Retail trade 67,800 69,100 72,700 76,300 81,100
Transportation, warehousing,
& utilities 10,600 11,000 11,700 12,600 13,400
Information 20,800 20,500 21,500 21,800 21,900
Financial activities 39,500 40,000 41,200 43,300 45,000
Professional & business services 85,600 89,100 94,100 99,600 106,700
Educational & health Services 66,000 68,400 71,100 73,800 76,600
Leisure & hospitality 63,800 67,100 69,700 74,300 78,400
Other services 24,500 26,000 26,500 27,700 28,200
Government 145,600 145,800 148,900 152,000 156,300

Employment by Industry 2007

Do you know what you are copying and pasting?

[Paul in S.A TX]

Do you know what you are copying and pasting?

San Antonio has 20,000 more white collar jobs in Finace than Austin, More than any other Texas city according to link I posted on other page. Actually just read charts, pretty much tells the story. San Antonio is definitley more white than Blue.

[Trae]

Please tell me which metor area is larger, San Antonio or Austin?

[Paul in S.A TX]

Please tell me which metor area is larger, San Antonio or Austin?

San Antonio having more finance industry jobs in Texas is a indicator that Metro size does not matter.

[alexjon]

Oh laird.

Please, someone stop this crazy boat

[Paul in S.A TX]

The total economic impact of the finance industry is $20.5 billion and it provides 50,469 jobs with total wages at $2.66 billion. The average annual wage for the industry is $52,612 compared to the average wage in San Antonio of $33,911. This data was compiled using data from 2004.

When compared to the aerospace, healthcare, hospitality and information technology industries, the finance industry:

registers the largest economic impact by almost double the second-ranked industry (healthcare)
pays the highest average wages
pays the second highest amount of total wages
employs the third largest number of people, and
this study further substantiates that San Antonio has a diversified economy.
In addition, San Antonio’s employment numbers in finance and insurance top other major Texas cities including Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston and Austin

[alexjon]

Then where are the tall buildings, modern transit options, modern airports, exclusive condos and chic retail cores?

[sirkingwilliam]

Oh my god was this thread just a terrible terrible idea to begin with. Destined to fail. Whether it came from Paul's overzealous defending or Trae's insecurity plagued posts and his "one up you" style. It was bound to happen.

Let's get something straight. No combing of airports is going to happen. Stop it. Stop purposing this just because DFW has it. STOP!

San Antonio does have a very diverse economy no matter what Trae wants people to believe. San Antonio is no longer a Tourism and Military dependent city. This city is definitely no blue collar city. Though the city does have a somewhat "working class" image in some regards, but that ever changing as the area grows and evolves.

Now this thread is ready for a...

http://www.coders4fun.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/lock.png

[Trae]

Oh my god was this thread just a terrible terrible idea to begin with. Destined to fail. Whether it came from Paul's overzealous defending or Trae's insecurity plagued posts and his "one up you" style. It was bound to happen.

http://www.coders4fun.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/lock.png

k.

But what exactly am I being insecure about?

[sirkingwilliam]

The total economic impact of the finance industry is $20.5 billion and it provides 50,469 jobs with total wages at $2.66 billion. The average annual wage for the industry is $52,612 compared to the average wage in San Antonio of $33,911. This data was compiled using data from 2004.

When compared to the aerospace, healthcare, hospitality and information technology industries, the finance industry:

registers the largest economic impact by almost double the second-ranked industry (healthcare)
pays the highest average wages
pays the second highest amount of total wages
employs the third largest number of people, and
this study further substantiates that San Antonio has a diversified economy.
In addition, San Antonio’s employment numbers in finance and insurance top other major Texas cities including Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston and Austin

Paul, that 20.5 billion dollar number is from 2004. If you're going to defend so vigorously, try not being so bad at it.

[sirkingwilliam]

k.

But what exactly am I being insecure about?

Kid, you're the first to point out how big Houston is. If it's a non-Houston topic/thread it'll 9 times out of ten be interjected almost like a non sequitur. You'll almost surely be the first to point out someone's short comings and what not.

You can't stand any type of achievement for any place other than Houston.

You have an almost Napoleon-like complex going on.

[Trae]

Kid, you're the first to point out how big Houston is. If it's a non-Houston topic/thread it'll 9 times out of ten be interjected almost like a non sequitur. You'll almost surely be the first to point out someone's short comings and what not.

You can't stand any type of achievement for any place other than Houston.

You have an almost Napoleon-like syndrome going on.

Examples in this thread of me putting Houston in first kid.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Tall buildings? They are all in Washington D.C! Chic retail cores? What does that have to do with anything? San Antonio has a explosion of retail on all levels like no other Texas town.

[Trae]

Tall buildings? They are all in Washington D.C! Chic retail cores? What does that have to do with anything? San Antonio has a explosion of retail on all levels like no other Texas town.

There is a reason why Washington DC does not have any tall buildings. Codes and ordinances don't let anything be taller than the Capitol Building (something like that). All of the tall buildings are on the other side of the Potomac in Virginia.

And San Antonio has as much retail going up as every other Texas city.

[sirkingwilliam]

Examples in this thread of me putting Houston in first kid.

You called me kid. I see what you did there. Clever.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3644814&postcount=9

How dear Paul not type Houston. How dare he not mention that city. But never fear Trae is here.

Do you now get it?

[Paul in S.A TX]

Paul, that 20.5 billion dollar number is from 2004. If you're going to defend so vigorously, try not being so bad at it.

Thats all I found. Still tells the story. I'm sure it has grown over the past few years.

[sirkingwilliam]

There is a reason why Washington DC does not have any tall buildings. Codes and ordinances don't let anything be taller than the Capitol Building (something like that). All of the tall buildings are on the other side of the Potomac in Virginia.

And San Antonio has as much retail going up as every other Texas city.

I think what Paul is trying to articulate is that a skyline isn't everything. That no skyline is a true measure of a city. I could be wrong though.

As for the retail. Well, no, SA is actually besting everyone in Texas. A little over six million under construction now with almost ten million planned or proposed and much more in the pipeline.

[Trae]

You called me kid. I see what you did there. Clever.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3644814&postcount=9

How dear Paul not type Houston. How dare he not mention that city. But never fear Trae is here.

Do you now get it?

I knew you were going to use that post. I was joking, hence the smiley.

But again, wasn't the first time Houston was mentioned in the thread.

[Trae]

I think what Paul is trying to articulate is that a skyline isn't everything. That no skyline makes a city what it is. I could be wrong though.

As for the retail. Well, no, SA is actually besting everyone in Texas. A little over six million under construction now with almost ten million planned or proposed and much more in the pipeline.

And if that is what Paul is trying to say, then I agree with him. London (one of four true global cities along with Houston, New York, and Tokyo) has no skyline.

[sirkingwilliam]

I knew you were going to use that post. I was joking, hence the smiley.

But again, wasn't the first time Houston was mentioned in the thread.

Like I said, whether Houston is mentioned or not, you will always, without fail, bring it up in the conversation especially, especially when it's a gauging type topic. Not to mention how you are the first person to kick someone off a ladder and bring them down.

[Trae]

What is wrong with me bringing it up, if it already had been mentioned in the topic?

[sirkingwilliam]

What is wrong with me bringing it up, if it already had been mentioned in the topic?

There's nothing wrong with it, not that I know of, but is it that difficult for you to see the context? Whether you were joking or not you either consciously or subconsciously wanted to make sure people knew something totally trivial, but important to you, about Houston. You had to. That's my point. If it again goes over your head, well sorry. I'm done talking about it. This thread needs to be LOCKED.

[M1EK]

I think what Paul is trying to articulate is that a skyline isn't everything. That no skyline is a true measure of a city. I could be wrong though.

As for the retail. Well, no, SA is actually besting everyone in Texas. A little over six million under construction now with almost ten million planned or proposed and much more in the pipeline.

Yay! Unsustainable suburban crap for the 'win'!

[sakyle04]

Yay! Unsustainable suburban crap for the 'win'!

CIRCLE GETS THE SQUARE!! :yes:

[Dom"n"Converse]

This reminds me of reading those God-awful City-data forums...

[oldmanshirt]

This reminds me of reading those God-awful City-data forums...

Yup :koko:

[matthew2109]

i love this thread, started out as vision then went downhill form there :)

[alexjon]

I wish I still had that gif of Michael Jackson eating popcorn

[Trae]

http://upit.section31.us/uploads/jackson4.gif

[alexjon]

^^^ The best summation of this thread EVER

[Trae]

Save the picture. I'm sure it will be used often in this forum.

[alexjon]

Yeah, it's summer

All the kids are out of school, and...

[Christianmx]

And if that is what Paul is trying to say, then I agree with him. London (one of four true global cities along with Houston, New York, and Tokyo) has no skyline.

1. London does have a skyline and a very good one.
2. Houston is not a global city like London, New York, or Tokyo. :rolleyes:

[Trae]

1. London does have a skyline and a very good one.

Post a photo. London's skyline is nothing compared to New York, Tokyo, or La Defense.

2. Houston is not a global city like London, New York, or Tokyo. :rolleyes:

Do you think I was serious? It was a joke, with the way the thread was going at the time. :rolleyes:

The four true global cities are Paris, New York, London, and Tokyo.