[Bassic Lab]

And everyone is arriving in that half hour why?

To make it to work on time. If people have to arrive too early to guarantee a seat in they will be far more likely to just drive to an outer LRT station. Half the point of developing a commuter train network would be to keep those people from causing congestion on Calgary's LRT lines.

[Vascilli]

How long has the Airdre ICE been running? I saw one downtown today for the first time.

[fusili]

To make it to work on time. If people have to arrive too early to guarantee a seat in they will be far more likely to just drive to an outer LRT station. Half the point of developing a commuter train network would be to keep those people from causing congestion on Calgary's LRT lines.

I was questioning the remark about asking how many trains could arrive in the half hour between 8:15 and 8:45 in order to calculate capacity. Wouldn't trains also arrive at 7:15, 7:30, 7:45, 8:00 etc etc? Am I confusing something here?

And anyways, why would someone drive into Calgary (which takes 20 minutes or more) then park at a park-n-ride, then take the LRT into the city, which has multiple stops when they could just take a short bus, walk or car trip to the commuter station and get downtown faster? A 30 minute headway would be sufficient IMO, to deter people from driving into Calgary and then parking.

[Bassic Lab]

I was questioning the remark about asking how many trains could arrive in the half hour between 8:15 and 8:45 in order to calculate capacity. Wouldn't trains also arrive at 7:15, 7:30, 7:45, 8:00 etc etc? Am I confusing something here?

And anyways, why would someone drive into Calgary (which takes 20 minutes or more) then park at a park-n-ride, then take the LRT into the city, which has multiple stops when they could just take a short bus, walk or car trip to the commuter station and get downtown faster? A 30 minute headway would be sufficient IMO, to deter people from driving into Calgary and then parking.

Just that most of the target market would be working 9-5. If they arrive downtown before 08:15 they will be pretty early for work, after 08:45 they risk being late. Half hour headways are great when there is not demand for more capacity than that allows. A half hour or less is great for people's schedules. It is an acceptable amount of time to be early. People can grab a coffee or whatever. Any more than that and we start hitting timeframes that people will find unacceptable. The way that we structure work time will mean that most people will want to arrive downtown in that half hour. That rush is what needs to be accommodated.

[mersar]

How long has the Airdre ICE been running? I saw one downtown today for the first time.

Since some point in October.

Sadly though its so far been pretty unsuccessful in terms of ridership, as up until this month the fare was way too high. They did trim it down though, but its still not integrated with Calgary's fare system though the fact it does run all the way downtown does alleviate that from being as large a problem (the proposed Cochrane system would be integrated as it won't run all the way downtown). We'll see how it does come 2011 and people find out the fare was nearly halved.

[freeweed]

Just that most of the target market would be working 9-5. If they arrive downtown before 08:15 they will be pretty early for work, after 08:45 they risk being late. Half hour headways are great when there is not demand for more capacity than that allows. A half hour or less is great for people's schedules. It is an acceptable amount of time to be early. People can grab a coffee or whatever. Any more than that and we start hitting timeframes that people will find unacceptable. The way that we structure work time will mean that most people will want to arrive downtown in that half hour. That rush is what needs to be accommodated.

Off topic, but Calgary's core working community is anything but 9-5. 8-5 maybe is a decent measured "peak" - but it's surprisingly spread out. The LRT is usually completely full at 7am (at least from the NW). Those people ain't getting to work 90 minutes early.

And a surprising number of people are on the train after 6pm.

[fusili]

Off topic, but Calgary's core working community is anything but 9-5. 8-5 maybe is a decent measured "peak" - but it's surprisingly spread out. The LRT is usually completely full at 7am (at least from the NW). Those people ain't getting to work 90 minutes early.

And a surprising number of people are on the train after 6pm.

Exactly. A lot, and I mean a lot, of people start at 7:00 or 8:00 in this city, especially those in Finance, as the TSX opens at 7:00 our time. Calgary's commuting pattern is that the morning peak is spread out, and almost everyone leaves between 4:00 and 5:00.

[Bassic Lab]

Exactly. A lot, and I mean a lot, of people start at 7:00 or 8:00 in this city, especially those in Finance, as the TSX opens at 7:00 our time. Calgary's commuting pattern is that the morning peak is spread out, and almost everyone leaves between 4:00 and 5:00.

Okay, in that case the bigger rush would be in the afternoon. I think anecdotes about our spread out work times are somewhat exaggerated but whatever. Either way, there will be brief periods when pretty well all of the traffic will have to be dealt with while most of the day can get by with minimal or no service.

[YYCguys]

Since some point in October.

Sadly though its so far been pretty unsuccessful in terms of ridership, as up until this month the fare was way too high. They did trim it down though, but its still not integrated with Calgary's fare system though the fact it does run all the way downtown does alleviate that from being as large a problem (the proposed Cochrane system would be integrated as it won't run all the way downtown). We'll see how it does come 2011 and people find out the fare was nearly halved.

I live in Airdrie and although I don't work in DT Calgary, I do occasionally drive in to an LRT station and pay the park n ride fee and a transit fare when I do want to or have to go DT. That's just a little more than the current ICE fare of $5. The ICE schedule is not convenient for me unless I wanna get up really early and stay in Calgary ALL day until the afternoon buses start up. Once the park n ride fees are eliminated next spring, it will be cheaper and more convenient, schedule-wise, for me to drive in (excluding price of gas, mind) unless the ICE schedule expands to all day service, which I highly doubt will happen next year!

[para transit fellow]

How long has the Airdre ICE been running? I saw one downtown today for the first time.

October 4. it has definitatly been a "work in progress"

[DenOfSlack]

October 4. it has definitatly been a "work in progress"

I see one a couple of days a week as I walk to the North Pointe Park and Ride to catch the 301. Seems to go by around 7:10am. Have never seen more than a half dozen people on it - a couple of times it appeared to be completely empty.

[UofC.engineer]

That is too bad that the ICE hasn't been very successful.

I think Airdrie/Calgary needs to take three steps:

1. Establish a transit hub close to downtown Airdrie. Includes large park&ride(1000+ stalls), real time schedule, feeder buses.

2. Create a thrid route which runs to Saddletowne station every hour(maybe two)

3. Create a lane reversal on Centre Street.(Improve transit time).

[fusili]

That is too bad that the ICE hasn't been very successful.

I think Airdrie/Calgary needs to take three steps:

1. Establish a transit hub close to downtown. Includes large park&ride(1000+ stalls), real time schedule, feeder buses.
2. Create a thrid route which runs to Saddletowne station every hour(maybe two)

3. Create a lane reversal on Centre Street.(Improve transit time).

That doesn't make much sense. A 1000 stall parkade next to a downtown transit hub. Parking is needed, but 1000 stalls sounds a bit excessive considering the only people parking will be those taking transit out of the city, not into it (which pretty much means to Edmonton).

[MalcolmTucker]

downtown Airdrie might be what they are saying? Might make much more sense to have the Airdrie local routes hub there with a transfer to the Calgary bus. Have the 'pulse' every half hour or hour depending on time of day. (all buses get to the station and wait for 5 minutes so transfers can be made from all routes to all routes.) Also leave a couple bays free for private buses - perhaps Cross Iron Mills would pay for service to the mall from there. Make it much more like a true commuter service, rather than a hybrid local/commuter. You eventually want a park and ride any ways for either the NC LRT or a commuter train - may as well buy some land now and start upzoning around it.

[UofC.engineer]

That doesn't make much sense. A 1000 stall parkade next to a downtown transit hub. Parking is needed, but 1000 stalls sounds a bit excessive considering the only people parking will be those taking transit out of the city, not into it (which pretty much means to Edmonton).

Well better too much than too little. They could start by building a gravel parking lot. then upgrade it to a parkade latter.

There is a large section of unused land that could serve as a transit hub. It's on the west side of the train tracks and bounded by 8th street SW. It's about 670m by 630m. A little too big for a transit hub, but I guess TOD could fill in the rest. I think it's good for three reasons:

1. Close to the railroad tracks(Future Commuter Rail)

2. Central

3. Close to downtown(build pedestrian overpass)

[MalcolmTucker]

^ That is beyond stupid. transit exists to relieve/supplement road traffic into the core area, whereas that proposal would increase it.

[UofC.engineer]

^ That is beyond stupid. transit exists to relieve/supplement road traffic into the core area, whereas that proposal would increase it.

Where would you put it?

[fusili]

^ That is beyond stupid. transit exists to relieve/supplement road traffic into the core area, whereas that proposal would increase it.

Amen. Putting a "gravel lot" in the downtown is a horrendous idea.

[fusili]

Where would you put it?

This is a transit hub remember. It is for making easy transit connections. Sir Humphrey's earlier proposal to do it at Tower Centre (between 9th and 10th avenues at the Calgary Tower) makes absolute sense. It connects all LRT and commuter train riders to a future HSR to Edmonton and connects commuter travellers to the LRT network. Ask yourself who is driving to this and why. A parking lot for the high speed rail is much better positioned where the airport spur meets the HSR. Anyone else would be taking LRTs or commuter trains to get to the transit hub.

[frinkprof]

This is a transit hub remember. It is for making easy transit connections. Sir Humphrey's earlier proposal to do it at Tower Centre (between 9th and 10th avenues at the Calgary Tower) makes absolute sense. It connects all LRT and commuter train riders to a future HSR to Edmonton and connects commuter travellers to the LRT network. Ask yourself who is driving to this and why. A parking lot for the high speed rail is much better positioned where the airport spur meets the HSR. Anyone else would be taking LRTs or commuter trains to get to the transit hub.Based on his description of the parcel (west side of the tracks, bounded by 8th Street), I'm pretty sure he is talking about building the parkade near Airdrie's downtown, on a plot of land that I'm sure is somewhat environmentally sensitive (Link (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Airdrie&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=33.333812,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Airdrie,+Division+No.+6,+Alberta&ll=51.282361,-114.025256&spn=0.03146,0.077162&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=51.282361,-114.025256&panoid=OMmSTMg1CNeVMdnPXybnQg&cbp=12,87.2,,0,-0.51)).

Nevertheless, the scale and nature of the idea being proposed makes the following an appropriate response.

Where would you put it?Bend over and I'll show you.

[fusili]

Based on his description of the parcel (west side of the tracks, bounded by 8th Street), I'm pretty sure he is talking about building the parkade near Airdrie's downtown, on a plot of land that I'm sure is somewhat environmentally sensitive.

Ah, I thought he was talking about Calgary. Apologies.


There is a large section of unused land that could serve as a transit hub. It's on the west side of the train tracks and bounded by 8th street SW. It's about 670m by 630m.

Methinks there might already be a plan to make this a TOD.;) ;)

[UofC.engineer]

You're a funny guy frinkprof!

But what is funnier is Sir.Humphrey.Appleby calls my plan "beyond stupid" but when I ask him about where the best location for an Airdrie transit hub is , he can't seem to respond all of the sudden.

It's pretty easy to critisize, but not easy to come up with an idea isn't it?

Hey! I could be wrong with my plan. I don't live in airdrie. But bring another idea to the table if you don't believe mine is any good.

So all of you reading this, go on google earth, look up airdrie and lets hear you're thoughts on a where to put a transit hub in Airdrie.

Or if you don't believe in a central point where buses should take off toward Calgary lets hear about that too.

[para transit fellow]

best location for a transit hub is Sierra springs (near the the south exit for airdrie). land is available, better east-west connections from across airdrie and quick access onto hwy 2.

'Course the need to build 1000 space parking lot for flks who are only going to travel to fifteen minutes to get to he transit hub does strain the imagination.. or at least my imagination.

[UofC.engineer]

I'm trying to find the statistic but I read somewhere that half the working population of Airdrie works in Calgary.

Based on the 2006 census Airdire had a population of 28,927 and a working population of 16,730. For 2010 we can update these to roughly a population of 40,000 and using basic math a working population of 23,134.

If a third bus route is built to Saddletowne station Airdrie could have about 11,567 potential inter-city transit riders. Of course this number will not be achieved any day soon to due a low transit ridership rate. That is why a 1000+ parking stall at the transit hub is justified.

I know ridership is really low now, really low. But if you build it they will come...eventually.

[MalcolmTucker]

When you said downtown, I thought you meant Calgary for a parkade and such. (I didn't , and I think most didn't, connect your first post about the hub in Airdrie, with the second post that mentioned a large lot near the rail road tracks, 8th st SW, that was currently gravel with a proposal for a big parkade near a hub)

Airdrie's would make sense in four places, in no particular order.

1) Yankee Valley and the Railroad tracks, either reclaim the storm pond, re purpose the gathering place after replacing its function somewhere else, or the lot north of the Tim Hortons (eventually if space is needed taking the Tim Hortons and the Totem).

2) Worst of the best would be at the rail line and Highway 567, both because there isn't really much room there and why hub north when your goal is to feed south.

3) not sure how well a 1st ave and rail site would work as 1) it has no connection to the east side of Deerfoot, forever stranding the east side with longer trips and higher cost (to the city) service. (you could provision for a future transit only tunnel or bridge connecting 1st ave and East Lake Crescent which would solve the network issues and maybe push it to the top of my choices)

4) the 8th St site, north of luxstone, south of mckenzie point. Only makes sense if you build a connector over to Mainstreet which would be hard with the creek, and maybe a better connection over to east of the Deerfoot, but would need to run numbers on that. A hub there you would take all the land and try to build a new 'downtown', maybe even breaking even on the local infrastructure costs. Given how long the hub is likely to be served by buses only, this would be really hard. Likely to the cost the most would be my guess.

Given the pluses, minuses on the sites, I would say Yankee Valley Rd ranks first for me (especially when you get rail you can add the 'downtown' station later without disrupting the existing commuter flows, and it would likely be the cheapest).

Second would be right on 1st Ave NW, third would be the new build site, 4th the north site.

[UofC.engineer]

Sorry I wasn't clear about which downtown.

Yea, that's actually a good idea to put the Hub where Cooper's Crossing pond is, from a access point of view.

I see two problems tho

1. Re-routing of storm lines might get expensive(or it might not, all depends), but it is totally feasible to do.

2. The surronding residents probably won't enjoy a transit Hub close to their houses where a nice pond use to be.

Also, on the Airdrie bus maps I notice two symbols which say "bus terminal" does anyone know what these look like? Google street view is too old to view these

[para transit fellow]

Airdrie does a census every year http://www.airdrie.ca/city_council/census.cfm

The Airdrie "bus terminals" are merely bus stop signs on a sidewalk. They serve as transfer points for the three intown routes and the ICE. I can get you some pics if you want.

i'm a little confused by your prediction that a route to the NE LRT station will increase ridership. The ICE is suffering because the private commuter goes directly to downtown instead of along Centre street (accessing more of Calgary Transit). Even before they started the service, they re-allocated a direct-to-downtown ICE route to appease the commuter feedback - everyone in Airdrie is convinced that the route along centre street will take two hours and that the deerfoot route is only 30 minutes (yet both estimates are incorrect)

Folks in Airdrie aren't taking the ICE because 1) they are attached to their cars and 2) they want to go downtown as directly and expediciously as possible. Truth is that Airdrionians don't want to take connecting transit in Calgary. They'd rather take their car if they going to have to suffer any route deviations to facilitate access to Calgary transit. Given that everyone has moved to Airdrie with the understanding that you need a car to work in Calgary, it will take quite some time to make folks hee transit-friendly.

I should note that prior to the ICE, the private communter bus was only half-filled most of the time (despite over 5,000 cars per day heading into Calgary ). The commuter fills in winter but is quite empty in the summer.

[YYCguys]

The 8th Street plot of land that has been referred to is currently the subject of an neighborhood structure plan called Midtown. It features higher density and mixed uses. The density is highest at Railway Gate and steps down to SFH on the southern most edge backing onto the small canal. The northern part of the parcel currently features IronHorse Park (a plot of land leased from the City to the current developer, a lease which is going to expire in the next 5 years or so) which is a miniature railroad park, for which the words "transit hub" have been used to describe its future potential. A pedestrian link across the CPR tracks has also been made a requirement of the development.

I do agree that a better location for a park n ride location/transit hub would be in the Sierra Springs area or perhaps the northern portion of the new development of Kings Heights along YVB east of QE2. I also like the idea of an ICE stop at Cross Iron Mills, perhaps funded by the partners of the Calgary Regional Partnership?

[UofC.engineer]

I suggested a thirld route to the NE LRT because I figured many people don't work in downtown(Calgary). You're right tho, most people that moved to Airdrie expected a long drive into the city, hopefully the economics of parking a car in downtown Calgary($500/month) will eventually make more people want to take transit.

Does anyone know if Airdrie council has a location for a commuter rail station/Transit Hub planned?

[YYCguys]

Does anyone know if Airdrie council has a location for a commuter rail station/Transit Hub planned?

See comment I made prior to yours: "The northern part of the parcel currently features IronHorse Park (a plot of land leased from the City to the current developer, a lease which is going to expire in the next 5 years or so) which is a miniature railroad park, for which the words "transit hub" have been used to describe its future potential."

I don't know if any other locations have been looked at. As the local and ICE transit grow and as decisions are firmed up for commuter rail, perhaps we will see more information about the location/design/concept of the hub.

[para transit fellow]

I suggested a thirld route to the NE LRT because I figured many people don't work in downtown(Calgary). You're right tho, most people that moved to Airdrie expected a long drive into the city, hopefully the economics of parking a car in downtown Calgary($500/month) will eventually make more people want to take transit.




Actually the point I'm trying to make is that the Airdrie residents seem to expect a short drive to the city and won't tolerate anything else.

Anything that makes for a longer ride into Calgary flies as well as a lead balloon. Developers marketed their new homes with a "15 minutes to Calgary" theme. Years later, Airdrie residents still seem to think it is only a fifteen minute drive, when they are spending 45+ on deerfoot to downtown.

Now if ICE could improve their times from airdrie in the afternoon, there might be a little more for people who work in Airdrie

For example: I work in Airdrie. I could stand getting to airdrie either 8:00 or 9 am but the trip home is either 3:30 or 4:30 pm. With a 15 or 20 minute walk between the bus stop and my office, I wouldn't get an 8 hr day in unless I work through lunch. Shifting the third bus to the deerfoot route has limited the potential for reverse commuting numbers.

Of course, ICE is already better than the private service for reverse commute to Airdrie. The private commuter had a single location at edmonton trail and Mcknight for the reverse commuters. (What kind of transit can you catch there?)

[fusili]

Of course, ICE is already better than the private service for reverse commute to Airdrie. The private commuter had a single location at edmonton trail and Mcknight for the reverse commuters. (What kind of transit can you catch there?)

This really illustrates a need for a Calgary, and a regional transit plan. Shouldn't any kind of transit coming into the city be stopping at planned stations that connect to several transit routes? Everything is so ad hoc it pisses me off.

[MalcolmTucker]

Actually the point I'm trying to make is that the Airdrie residents seem to expect a short drive to the city and won't tolerate anything else.

Anything that makes for a longer ride into Calgary flies as well as a lead balloon.Studies show transit ridership doesn't drop off until you reach around 1.5x the otherwise commute. You will never get everyone, especially when many jobs are scattered around industrial parks with free parking. A focus on two groups is good - post secondary students and downtown workers.

The biggest issue isn't speed right now, it is all the other types of quality. Bad frequency, a bad choice of bus (there is a reason most commuter systems use coach buses), and bad connections in Airdrie. All those problems can be solved by a system redesign once there is a bit more money, and a study to figure out which route is fastest, and which route to the University is fastest (centre street then bus, or downtown direct and C-Train).

To start a system like this without a park and ride lot is very daft, and will likely undermine the political will to upgrade the system in the future.

A route that might work better, would be to access the city from the north, onto Centre St from range rd 13 (likely would need upgrades), down to Beddington Trail then Deerfoot then downtown, only stopping for a connection at country hills. Even if it is slower by 5 minutes than a pure centre st route, it would still be better than it.

[UofC.engineer]

Yea, I don't know why Airdrie choose to buy artic. buses. It is probably way cheaper to buy a highway coach. (And more comfortable for the passengers)

This is what they should have used! :haha: A double decker artic coach bus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Cropped_jumbo.jpg

[UofC.engineer]

Eugene Oregon bought some artics for a price of $463,561 each
http://www.ltd.org/search/showresult.html?versionthread=91a9a11313910620861b5f2c1d51daff

A highway coach bus goes for $200,000-$300,000

[para transit fellow]

Yea, I don't know why Airdrie choose to buy artic. buses. It is probably way cheaper to buy a highway coach. (And more comfortable for the passengers)

This is what they should have used! :haha: A double decker artic coach bus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Cropped_jumbo.jpg

The federal funds (new deal for canadian cities) for the bus purchase demanded an accessible vehicle - a low floor vehicle (actually all provincial/federal dollars for transit purchases demand accessibility). As to why Airdrie chose articulated buses instead of standard length buses? I believe that they thought commuter busing would immediately be as popular here as it is in the Edmonton-region. With gasoline prices rising, it just might become happen: $5/trip for transit is already cheaper than my cost of gas for my commute between Calgary/airdrie (i spend $60/wk).

I'm going to disagree that most other commuter systems are using motorcoaches. I see that changing. Last time I checked, the newest motorcoaches were pretty comparable in cost to a 40' low-floor bus. Then again you are looking at a captial cost (from capital funding sources) of a vehicle that will see maybe 15-20 years of service in Canada-- labour is the biggest single cost. I see public demand for accessibility moving them away from coaches.

To my knowledge, the Edmonton -region properties such as strathcona transit are phasing out their coaches. Go Transit is moving to double deckers. Comfy highway coach seats and/or commuter seating layout can be ordered for a transit bus. I know the Nova LFS is available in a suburban seating config and with only one door like a highway coach. The entire upstairs of strathcona transit's pilot double decker is commuter seating. Seating is a minor issue because new seating layouts can be ordered, delivered and installed in a matter of weeks.

[halifaxboyns]

I just came back from Halifax and they are one large region under one government; but have a lot of areas serviced through their regional transit. The Link Buses are basically no more than a standard 40' Nova Bus with better seats - which they bought quite a few of and began using from Portland Hills (a new suburban community in Dartmouth - other side of the harbour from DT Halifax) to the Downtown Core. The service was so popular that the park and ride lot is full.

They launched the same service from Sackville (suburbs on the west? side of HRM) to downtown and it is equally popular. I've ridden the buses and the seats are much more comfortable, but the route functions as a BRT.

In the rural commuter areas - they offer a different service that is a BRT, but they use a GMC type bus. You can see it in this (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/08/31/ns-metrox-tantallon.html) story. But the two services have proven to be very popular without the use of a major highway coach.

[MalcolmTucker]

The Go Buses in Ontario are wheel chair accessible coach buses. The double deckers are low floor with a ramp similar to standard buses.

Realistically even if the lifts take a long time to use - most routes won't need them beyond 1 use put in the schedule as slack. If a route or particular run needs additional time, just have to monitor everything to ensure the pulse point is not being missed. (there was a bus - train meet up in Ontario that was missed a couple times due to two wheelchairs customers taking the route instead of the 'allowed for' one. It made local media, and it was fixed within a week by modifying the stop times).

[para transit fellow]

Driving home tonight, i noticed the 902 on deerfoot was carrying maybe 20 people out of downtown (all sitting in rear half of bus)

Maybe the ICE is starting to gel?

[UofC.engineer]

More info released on the CRP website

http://www.calgaryregion.ca/crp/projects/projects/regionaltransportationplanning/documents.aspx

[para transit fellow]

Look like they are looking for a Regional Transit project coordinator (http://www.cutaactu.ca/en/membership/resources/Calgary%20Regional%20Partnership-Transit%20Project%20Manager.pdf)

http://www.cutaactu.ca/en/membership/resources/Calgary%20Regional%20Partnership-Transit%20Project%20Manager.pdf

[MalcolmTucker]

With Calgary getting $800 million for regional transit, & commuter trains to Cochrane, Airdrie, High river, & (maybe) Chestermere, Strathmore, included as part of the funding :worship: for the long-ish term (Maybe 7 years), I thought I would ask what everyone else thinks about it? :)

Estimated yearly revenue: $214 million.
Estimated Cost: $500 million.
Would utilize existing Canadian Pacific tracks.


CP has said the only way commuter trains are running on their lines is double and in some cases triple tracking. Huge capital costs.

Over the long term it will be done, but whether that long term is by mid century or end century I couldn't say. Bar a major crisis that curtails personal auto use before alternative fuels are available I can't see projects that would currently serve too few people for too much money out competing any of the planned LRT services for funding.

Then again, if I was designing a tax and bond issue regional initiative to put to voters to support transit spending, throwing a billion into regional rail to get a much larger geographic area for a gas tax would likely be worth it.

[freeweed]

Bar a major crisis that curtails personal auto use before alternative fuels are available I can't see projects that would currently serve too few people for too much money out competing any of the planned LRT services for funding.

I hope like hell this is correct.

Plus, on this very forum we have people saying LRT encourages sprawl - what the hell would this do??

[albertantraingeek]

what the hell would this do??

I Second that.

[ClaytonA]

I Second that.

+2

Broken record, but I think the ring roads are the same way...

[UofC.engineer]

ICE times might be changing. There also might be minor route changes

http://www.airdrie.ca/transit/PubConsult_posterboard_All_web2.pdf


I'm still waiting on what the province has to say about the green trip proposal. I came across the BVTI, $4 from Canmore to Banff on a ROAM, 8 round trips daily. I'd go to Banff more if they had this in place

http://www.banff.ca/Assets/PDFs/Locals+PDF/bvta-business-plan-100330.pdf

[albertantraingeek]

CP has said the only way commuter trains are running on their lines is double and in some cases triple tracking. Huge capital costs.


I don't know where they think triple-tracking will be necessary, I railfan the mainlines out of the city very frequently, & there is often half-hour to full-hour intervals between trains. Union Pacific's Sunset Corridor has up to 150 trains a day, (Or is that BNSF's mainline? Either way...) & that mainline is double-tracked, AND it deals with multiple Amtrash trains daily, along the entire route. CP's West-east lines have 35-ish trains a day, NO passenger trains, & they say triple tracking? Retards.

And, just for comparison, some might say that Calgary is too small for commuter rail, but alberquerqee (don't know the spelling, sorry.) has a successful commuter rail through their area.

Double-triple tracking? No.
Too small a city? Nope.
Not enough demand? Nu-uh.
Too expensize? No way.

[MalcolmTucker]

CP Rail owns the rail and what they want goes. Can't force railcars onto the tracks without meeting their needs.

[para transit fellow]

I expect the need for double track is mostly to accomodate trains in two directions.

I notice that most of the morning frieght trains I see in Airdrie are northbound and the evening trains are southbound. And these trains are LLOOOOOONNNGGGGG! No sidings really accomodate them. Mean while the commuter trains need more than an hour to make their run.

I can see how long-term operations without the 2nd track would be very tedious. I can empathize how CP really doesn't want to take on commuter rail without some extra dedicated track. it would be too much trouble to operate for the money they would recieve

[5seconds]

+2

Broken record, but I think the ring roads are the same way...

I agree

A good read: http://stopthepave.org/why-building-roads-doesnt-ease-congestion

[albertantraingeek]

CP Rail owns the rail and what they want goes.:whip: Can't force railcars onto the tracks without meeting their needs.

I'm Sorry, I just thought of something, once the commuter trains get through the *tight* turn to the Edmonton line, they accelerate to about 90-ish, so, maybe not double-tracking, but a dedicated ROW alongside the Canadian Pacific? I was thinking of the situation in Toronto.

[albertantraingeek]

I expect the need for double track is mostly to accomodate trains in two directions.

I notice that most of the morning frieght trains I see in Airdrie are northbound and the evening trains are southbound. And these trains are LLOOOOOONNNGGGGG! No sidings really accomodate them. Mean while the commuter trains need more than an hour to make their run.


I definetly wouldn't say an hour. (do you mean to & from airdrie?) they are very fast, & would need to be very quick at stations, Cab cars are a must. Adding to the LLOOOOONNNGGGGG!, you people DO realize it takes a mile plus for those monsters to stop?

On another note, where do you people think the stations would be built, should this project ever get approved?

[para transit fellow]

I definetly wouldn't say an hour. (do you mean to & from airdrie?) they are very fast, & would need to be very quick at stations, Cab cars are a must. Adding to the LLOOOOONNNGGGGG!, you people DO realize it takes a mile plus for those monsters to stop?

On another note, where do you people think the stations would be built, should this project ever get approved?

I think I'm looking at the larger picture.

While it might take 30 minutes to run from Calgary from Airdrie you also need a stop in Crossfield, a stop in Balzac and a stop somewhere in the north part of Calgary. This will take a longer than the time to travel by car.

Additionally, unless there is indication ( or budget) of creating a new rail yard near Crossfield, the train will have to be based in Calgary requiring at least one trip out to Airdrie/ Crossfield before you can do a trip back to Calgary. As I understand rail control, this very tedious when a single rail track constricts operations.

Could we run a portion of the LRT system on a single track? ( temporaily - yes but long-term?)

Last year I caught the AMT commuter from the West Island area of Montreal. It works because of serveral stops, twinned track, multiple trains on a schedule. You need those elements for enough people to take the train to make the project viable. I'm afraid I don't see these early plans for a train in calgary pulling those elements together in a way that lures people away from their automobiles.

[albertantraingeek]

While it might take 30 minutes to run from Calgary from Airdrie you also need a stop in Crossfield, a stop in Balzac and a stop somewhere in the north part of Calgary. This will take a longer than the time to travel by car.


Dont like bumping threads, but this is a very good point, perhaps one Milk run & one non- stop to airdrie?

[MalcolmTucker]

Would have to work with the CPR, but at some point the Nose Creek ROW can't be expanded anymore. All depends on whether commuter trains are worth having to buy FRA compliant high speed rail and upgrading everything else to carry it on a ROW.

Plans today are just lines on a map, but I believe Airdrie is on the crazy long in the future NCLRT line instead of commuter rail.

[para transit fellow]

Would have to work with the CPR, but at some point the Nose Creek ROW can't be expanded anymore. All depends on whether commuter trains are worth having to buy FRA compliant high speed rail and upgrading everything else to carry it on a ROW.

Plans today are just lines on a map, but I believe Airdrie is on the crazy long in the future NCLRT line instead of commuter rail.

seems like a lifetime ago I recall John Hubble's comments to Airdrie Council that the LRT would reach Airdrie after Crossiron milss (there is right of way sety aside if they are to continue the NE LRT line

but that could have been an off the cuff remark

[para transit fellow]

http://www.airdrie.ca/transit/NR%20ICE%20Ridership%20Increases%202011-05-18.pdf

May 18, 2011 / For Immediate Release

ICE riders on the rise Airdrie, AB - Ridership is up 23 per cent in May on the City of Airdrie's Intercity Express (ICE) regional transit service to Calgary. Customer feedback influenced changes to the service, which came into effect on May 2, 2011.

"Travelling to Calgary on the ICE is easy and economical, especially with the new service changes," says Sheena Marston, legal assistant and new ICE rider. "I enjoy the comfortable ride and the ability to open the windows for fresh air on the way home."

The revised ICE service includes direct express service to downtown Calgary on all three morning buses and direct service back to Airdrie in the afternoon. A new shared park & ride lot located at the Ron Ebbesen Arena in East Airdrie connects commuters with Route 901.

"After conservatively estimating a 10 per cent growth in ridership based on the changes, we are delighted with the 23 per cent increase," said Chris MacIsaac, Airdrie Transit Coordinator.

As fuel prices escalate and parking costs rise, ICE offers the best transportation value for commuters to Calgary with a roundtrip cost of $10. Monthly passes and ticket booklets provide further savings for the daily commuter with roundtrips as low as $7.

Launched in October 2010, the ICE service provides regional public transit service in the Calgary Region. For more information on the ICE service including where to purchase monthly passes and tickets, visit www.airdrietransit.ca or call 403.948.8875.

-30-

[UofC.engineer]

Airdrie ICE is gaining momentum in ridership...slowly but surely.

http://www.airdriecityview.com/article/20110525/ACV0801/305259960/ice-ridership-increases-by-18-passengers-after-changes

77 passengers/day! :banaride:

[mersar]

Interesting story on CBC today:

Banff to Canmore bus route planned

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2011/06/23/calgary-bus-banff-canmore.html
A new bus service will travel between Banff and Canmore, shuttling commuters and tourists between the two Rocky Mountain towns.
The Bow Valley Regional Transit Commission launches Thursday, with as many as six eco-friendly buses. Premier Ed Stelmach is in Banff for the official announcement.
...

[Karting_tigo]

Airdrie Transit now has a blog. Should be interesting content over time...

http://airdrietransit.blogspot.com/

[Socguy]

CBC is reporting that the Provence has allocated 6.1M to purchase four shuttle buses and four double decker buses, one of which will connect Cochrane to the Crowfoot LRT station.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2011/08/09/calgary-cochrane-buses.html

[freeweed]

Good to see the province actively encouraging exurban sprawl. Ironic that funding is coming from GreenTRIP.

Greenwashing, it's not just for lepers anymore!

[armorand93]

Just ONE bus to Crowfoot LRT? Wow

[kw5150]

well, it is good news but.....who the hell would want to commute that far everyday? Yikes. It is hurting my head just thinking about it.....

[mersar]

Just ONE bus to Crowfoot LRT? Wow

Its a somewhat poorly worded article. All 4 of the double deckers will be used to move people between Cochrane and Crowfoot (probably 1 bus will be kept as a spare in the garage, so 3 running at all times meaning a possible 15 or 20 minute frequency). The shuttles will move people around within Cochrane itself.

Fare integration will be nice to have, likely acomplished by using the same smart card system as CT will have implemented by that time (this service probably won't start until 2013)

[5seconds]

well, it is good news but.....who the hell would want to commute that far everyday? Yikes. It is hurting my head just thinking about it.....

People are already making that commute, might as well give them options that reduces road usage.

[kw5150]

People are already making that commute, might as well give them options that reduces road usage.

Yeah, that is the part I cant get over...the commute...and I bet they drive to costco (and everywhere else) in Calgary and actually believe they are saving money in the long run.....lol

I would much rather tough it out in a 2 bedroom condo, close to a school and transit (with two kids), until I had enough money to buy a single family home in Calgary than move to cochrane and commute (that far) everyday. People used to live that way (with 2 kids) all the time in the 80s/ 90s because that was all they could afford. Many people move to Cochrane because they cant afford a house in Calgary.

I guess that is how desparate people are to have a single family home and live the dream right away!

Yes, i am always glad they offer transit to these far areas, of course.

[UofC.engineer]

ICE might be heading to CrossIron mills

http://www.airdrieecho.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3280782

[mersar]

The Cochrane Transit Strategy is going to Town Council on the 14th (see Cochrane Town Council Agenda - Nov 14 (http://www.cochrane.ca/municipal/toc/webcms.nsf/AllDoc/B58179F053E05B2D87257944008087BF/$File/november%2014%20regular%20agenda.pdf), caution its a huge 57mb PDF file)

Just finished looking through it now, recommended option is for 2014 start to service during peak times only, with 30 minute service to Crowfoot using 3 buses and one route with 30 minute frequency in town using 2 buses. Second in-town route added in 2015 with an additional bus. All day local service will begin in 2018. $120 fare for in-town and to Crowfoot, then require a pass from CT once you arrive in Crowfoot. So roughly $215/month. Also option of a $30/month in-town only pass (Airdrie charges $60 for theirs).

Overall it looks like a fairly sound option, specifically the fact they will start funding a reserve fund for transit service in 2012 so it has some money in it by the time 2014 arrives. Buses would be ordered early 2012 for 2014 arrival (these will be the Alexander Dennis E500's or similar for the intermunicipal service, probably Arbocs or similar for in-town service). Location for a terminal would be selected in 2012 and built for 2014. A shop/garage for the buses is up in the air still, the Town perfers a combined shop for all town services (parks, roads, transit) rather then a separate facility.

Ridership assumptions are 20 passengers per trip in peak direction and 4 in reverse, with 18 peak direction trips and 15 reverse peak trips initially, up to 35 riders by 2018. Local ridership in-town is estimated at 28 trips with 4 riders per day initially, to a total of 180 riders per day in 2018.

Target is 37% fare recovery by 2018, closer to 26% in 2014 though due to start up costs. Also they are looking into advertising revenues from bus shelters, in-bus ads and wraps, leasing the terminal to other users (I'd assume maybe for things like Greyhound).

Greentrip funding thats in-place works out to $4.7M for the terminal, $3.6M for 4 double decker buses, $640,000 for 4 cutaway buses, and $171,000 for design of the transit garage/shop facility (cost to build this is estimated at $18-21M). The town's contribution to the Greentrip funds will come from MSI.

[YYCguys]

ICE might be heading to CrossIron mills

http://www.airdrieecho.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3280782

Unfortunately, the idea was turned down by Airdrie City Council due to:

1. Wear and tear on the busses going over the speed bumps at the mall; and

2. Additional time spent in making the stop will potentially turn away customers who pay for and expect express service.

[armorand93]

Unfortunately, the idea was turned down by Airdrie City Council due to:

1. Wear and tear on the busses going over the speed bumps at the mall; and

2. Additional time spent in making the stop will potentially turn away customers who pay for and expect express service.

Couldn't there just be a simple service with a few 40-footers or cutaways for:

McKnight-Westwinds LRT - CrossIron - Airdrie, 7 am til 10:30 pm

or

Keep ICE going on all day (til 10:30 pm) and have a route from Airdrie - CrossIron during PEAK hours, and ICE stop at CrossIron itself between 9 am and 3 pm?

Then, express service will be maintained during the key times, and otherwise, there'd be at least 30 minute service by the one route, or 60 minutes by ICE along with the other route. Example:

Right After AM Peak
9:10 Route 4
9:25 ICE (Southbound)
9:40 Route 4
9:55 ICE (Northbound)

Near lets say... the mall closing for the evening
9:00 Southbound ICE
9:10 Route 4
9:15 Northbound ICE
9:15 Southbound ICE (Assuming NE Calgary wants to go to the mall after PM Peak)
9:40 Route 4
9:45 Southbound ICE (last D60LFR for night, Calgary employees)
10:40 Route 4 (Theatre possibly still open)
10:45 Southbound ICE (using 40 foot bus or if possible, cutaway)
11:30 Route 4
12:00 Southbound ICE (last bus makes it to Downtown Calgary just before last LRT trains to South, NW and NE)
12:50 Route 4 (last one of night, those guys have to clean up the theatre after the last movies!)

Of course, mall closing time means there will be more frequent service for "ICE shoppers". I wouldn't wanna get stuck in Leduc when the last C-Line bus heads back to Edmonton!!!

[YYCguys]

At least one Airdrie City Alderman expressed concern about encouraging Airdrie-ites to shop at CrossIron by sending them to and from on ICE, as opposed to keeping them in town to do their shopping.

While I do understand that, I personally think that Airdrie-ites are going to shop outside of Airdrie for things that they can't get here, and will go elsewhere to do it. It's a fact that can't be ignored. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, I say. When the Airdrie Transit/ICE survey came out earlier this year, I was one of those who suggested having day long ICE service and service to CIM, perhaps on every other trip.

[para transit fellow]

The challenge with transit to Mallzac is that neither Airdrie Nor Calgary want to pay for a transit service that is in Rocky View County. Airdrie's look at supplying a deviation into Balzac was going to cost roughly $20,000) per year

the schedules are already set for employees

http://www.crossironmills.com/File/File/507/file.ashx

It is mostly a matter of Crossiron's willingness to pay for the service
(and upgrade the operating authority for it's existing employee shuttle)

look at the hours of service then work out the cost:
cost of a cut-away is about $50-65/hr
Cost of a 40 ft low floor is about 75-85 per hour
Cost of an artic is something llike $90-$120 per hour

[YYCguys]

Good point about the employee shuttle. It's a no brainer when there's a shuttle service that charges its users less per trip than what it would cost for those same users to jump on ICE.

[mersar]

Reportedly the Cochrane Transit Strategy passed 4-3 in favour of the recommended option.

[para transit fellow]

Cochrane's transit startegy is going to plebicite

http://www.cochraneeagle.com/2011/11/council-withdraws-approval-of-transit/

Lots of letters and articles for/against transit in the Cochrane Eagle. ( Cochrane Times isn't yet published online)

[DizzyEdge]

Although this is a transit thread, since it involves all of Calgary's "bedroom communities" I thought this would be appropriate.

Does anyone have an inkling what might happen as Calgary abuts Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoks, Chestermere etc? Acknowledging that Airdrie and Chestermere are likely the more relevant ones as Calgary would have to get pretty big before it gets to the others in the list. Curious if they will just get absorbed, as is what happened 50 yrs ago, or if Calgary will simply wrap around them, or if the MD will actually stop Calgary's growth in those immediate areas so that doesn't happen. Looks like the annexed areas of Calgary and Airdrie are only 5 kms apart, and the annexed areas of Calgary and Chestermere are only 2.5 kms apart so this should get interesting soon.

EDIT: looks like a Chestermere annexation of 2010 has the two municipalities boundaries abutting each other.

[Bassic Lab]

Although this is a transit thread, since it involves all of Calgary's "bedroom communities" I thought this would be appropriate.

Does anyone have an inkling what might happen as Calgary abuts Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoks, Chestermere etc? Acknowledging that Airdrie and Chestermere are likely the more relevant ones as Calgary would have to get pretty big before it gets to the others in the list. Curious if they will just get absorbed, as is what happened 50 yrs ago, or if Calgary will simply wrap around them, or if the MD will actually stop Calgary's growth in those immediate areas so that doesn't happen. Looks like the annexed areas of Calgary and Airdrie are only 5 kms apart, and the annexed areas of Calgary and Chestermere are only 2.5 kms apart so this should get interesting soon.

EDIT: looks like a Chestermere annexation of 2010 has the two municipalities boundaries abutting each other.

The last round of annexation from Rockyview was pretty acrimonious. They essentially agreed to it with the understanding that there wouldn't be any more.

That said, it is all up to the province. They can impose amalgamation or they can retain the status quo. I don't see the political will existing within the PCs to force amalgamation. The only way I see it happening is if the fiscal position of surrounding municipalities collapses and the province isn't willing to subsidize the losses.

[DizzyEdge]

The last round of annexation from Rockyview was pretty acrimonious. They essentially agreed to it with the understanding that there wouldn't be any more.

That said, it is all up to the province. They can impose amalgamation or they can retain the status quo. I don't see the political will existing within the PCs to force amalgamation. The only way I see it happening is if the fiscal position of surrounding municipalities collapses and the province isn't willing to subsidize the losses.

If amalgamation isn't in the cards, then we have the option of Calgary enveloping those communities like an amoeba, so that Chestermere would be completely surrounded by an expanding Calgary, or a complete halt to the MD allowing more Calgary annexation, at least in and around those townsites.. curious.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, with regional land use planning and the Land Stewardship Act, a good number of reasons to absorb the surrounding region are reduced.

[DizzyEdge]

Yeah, with regional land use planning and the Land Stewardship Act, a good number of reasons to absorb the surrounding region are reduced.

Can you elaborate

[MalcolmTucker]

well surrounding communities can't just zone all the farm land into acreages and estate home lots anymore. Very positive step.

[frinkprof]

I've always thought that Chestermere is a much more likely candidate for amalgamation than is Airdrie. It's smaller, hasn't been established as a larger community for as long (really almost all of what is Chestermere today has only been around for 15 years or so), and I've always had the impression that it is more primed politically to just be absorbed by Calgary.

I doubt Airdrie ever will be amalgamated into Calgary, at least not for several decades.

[DizzyEdge]

I've always thought that Chestermere is a much more likely candidate for amalgamation than is Airdrie. It's smaller, hasn't been established as a larger community for as long (really almost all of what is Chestermere today has only been around for 15 years or so), and I've always had the impression that it is more primed politically to just be absorbed by Calgary.

I doubt Airdrie ever will be amalgamated into Calgary, at least not for several decades.

I've just wondered if unlike Airdrie, Chestermere might have an Okotoks-style "we're a small town (with a giant lake) and we prefer it that way" attitude.

Airdrie could be interesting; looking at a map it appears as small as it is, it has ~40 named communities within it's borders, each being probably 10-20% of the size of a typical newer Calgary community.

[Bassic Lab]

well surrounding communities can't just zone all the farm land into acreages and estate home lots anymore. Very positive step.

It might be positive for land stewardship and environmental sustainability but there could still be issues with competition for the region's tax base. Our financial sustainability could still take a hit. That and thinking about it, having Rockyview okay every industrial or commercial project they're offered doesn't sounds like a recipe for environmental sustainability.

[MalcolmTucker]

It might be positive for land stewardship and environmental sustainability but there could still be issues with competition for the region's tax base. Our financial sustainability could still take a hit. That and thinking about it, having Rockyview okay every industrial or commercial project they're offered doesn't sounds like a recipe for environmental sustainability.
Since the City of Calgary has almost all of the unused water allocation in the Bow basin, there are strict limits to what can actually be built by anyone else without Calgary's water.

Cross Iron Mills had to jump through many many hoops and spend way more than otherwise to get its water.

[frinkprof]

I've just wondered if unlike Airdrie, Chestermere might have an Okotoks-style "we're a small town (with a giant lake) and we prefer it that way" attitude.

Airdrie could be interesting; looking at a map it appears as small as it is, it has ~40 named communities within it's borders, each being probably 10-20% of the size of a typical newer Calgary community.That's the thing. Chestermere doesn't have nearly the sense of "community" (or at least a "we're not Calgary" mentality) that Okotoks or Airdrie have. It's really only been 15 or so years that Chestermere has been more than a tiny outpost on the Trans Canada.

The statistics are telling too. The 2006 census saw 93% of Chestermere residents commuting outside Chestermere for work. Okotoks was 63% and Airdrie 65%. Still majorities but quite a different category than Chestermere, I'd say.

[DizzyEdge]

That's the thing. Chestermere doesn't have nearly the sense of "community" (or at least a "we're not Calgary" mentality) that Okotoks or Airdrie have. It's really only been 15 or so years that Chestermere has been more than a tiny outpost on the Trans Canada.

The statistics are telling too. The 2006 census saw 93% of Chestermere residents commuting outside Chestermere for work. Okotoks was 63% and Airdrie 65%. Still majorities but quite a different category than Chestermere, I'd say.

Yeah that's pretty telling. In that case retaining Chestermere as a whole as a single new Calgary community might not go over too badly.

[MalcolmTucker]

Depending on what the tax change would look like for the residents. Also the city would have to maintain a longer portion of the TransCanada.

[para transit fellow]

Transit Feasibility study in Chestermere

http://talkchestermere.ca