[BTinSF]

. . . a precipitous drop in Nevada's gambling revenue. Statewide, gambling revenue in May slumped an eye-popping 15.2%, with table games down 15.7% and slots off 15.1%. Things were even worse on the Las Vegas Strip, where total gambling revenue fell 16.4% -- the largest decline yet in 2008, and one that is at an increasing rate as quarter-to-date revenues for the Strip are off 9%.

"The decline in Strip revenues is worse than the period immediately following Sept. 11, 2001 and except for January 2002 is the worst monthly performance in more than 10 years," wrote Robin Farley of UBS in a note. "The weakness in gaming revenues was not confined exclusively to the Strip as the Las Vegas locals market declined 19.5% in May, bringing year to date revenues down 8.7%."
Source: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/precipitous-drop-gambling-revenue-guts/story.aspx?guid={EA917796-F25B-455A-9BF4-7BFE27E85A00}&siteid=yahoomy

I'm interested in what people think this means for the city beyond the gaming halls. Will some or many of the new restaurants whither and their chefs leave? Will it stop construction and, if so, will those who work in that industry leave? Will a Las Vegas in a deep recession still be a place those who can afford the gas or air fares still want to visit?

[dimondpark]

Ya know,
I was in LV in February and I gotta say that of our large group that was there(about 30-40 of us), only a few of us went gambling. We spent more time eating, watching shows and strolling the strip than anything else. Oh, and shopping. Did a lot of that too.

I think Vegas has evolved past its dependancy on gambling income as the only major source of revenue. This is evident by LV successfully morphing itself into a place for singles to have fun and party, but also a place where families can do all sorts of activities that are not gambling-related but still cost a pretty penny.

That said, weakening revenue is bad for any industry so who knows whatll happen. Maybe gas prices are keeping the weekend gamblers from SoCal away?

[urbanactivistTX]

I think LV will be alright... just time to beef up advertising in foreign markets. A Las Vegas vacation is a steal right now for foreigners... well, except for maybe airfare.

[dimondpark]

I think LV will be alright... just time to beef up advertising in foreign markets. A Las Vegas vacation is a steal right now for foreigners... well, except for maybe airfare.

I wonder how much of a competitor Macau really is to LV?

The casino developers probably dont care since many of them have casinos in Macau too that sometimes look just like their LV hotels.

Wynn Macau
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/78/189504253_0556eb881f.jpg?v=0

MGM Macau
http://macaudailyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/mgm-grand-macau-b-280407.jpg

Venetian Macau
http://www.macautripping.com/images/tripping/venetianmacau_beautyshot.jpg

[BTinSF]

:previous: I was recently invested in Macau casinos (Melco PBL Entertainment: Crown Macau, City of Dreams etc) and took a bath. I recently got out for the tax loss. The industry there is completely different than Las Vegas. The target market are wealthy Chinese "VIPs" but they come as part of organized groups, put together by "tour" operators who not only book the hotel and other arrangements but lend the customers huge sums of money with which to gamble. These tour operators demand a percentage of the profits from casinos with which they do business and are getting more and more of those profits as the various hotels compete to book the groups. So far, there's not much left for the casino operators and I think that situation has as much to do with the poor performance of casino companies as the Las Vegas situation.

[brickell]

Could travel costs be the final straw that let's people rationalize going to Biloxi, Branson, Atlantic City, even Orlando instead of Vegas. Even in places where it's not legal, things have taken off.

Here in South Florida we've converted some of our parimutuals into Racino's with vegas style slots and the Seminole Indians have recently put in table games. But beyond that corner store "arcades" have proliferated.

Vegas can compete without gaming, but it competes with a much larger pool.

[tablemtn]

If things don't turn around in Las Vegas before those 30,000 new hotel rooms and other facilities currently under construction come on-stream, things will really get interesting.

[unusualfire]

Wow 30k more???? They don't all need to be filled to make money though.

[BTinSF]

I wonder how much of a competitor Macau really is to LV?

The casino developers probably dont care since many of them have casinos in Macau too that sometimes look just like their LV hotels.



It's :offtopic: but, as I was saying, and by remarkable coincidence:

Macau Acts to Help Its Casinos
Officials Will Cap Fees to Promoters Of Gambling Trips
By BRUCE STANLEY
July 10, 2008; Page B2

See Corrections & Amplifications item below

HONG KONG -- Macau has moved to help its casinos cap the rising cost of drawing customers in an effort to shore up profitability in the world's hottest gambling market.

Government officials, after meeting with industry executives, agreed late Tuesday to put a ceiling on the commissions casinos pay promoters who bring them their most valuable customers: VIP gamblers from mainland China. Recently, casinos have been paying rising commissions to a new generation of promoting company that shuttles customers to the one place in China where gambling is legal.

Wynn Resorts Ltd. of the U.S., Galaxy Entertainment Group Ltd., a Chinese casino operator in Macau, and Sociedade de Jogos de Macau SA, the gambling company controlled by Macau casino tycoon Stanley Ho, said they supported the government's cap on commission rates. Other casino operators declined to comment. Major promoters -- known in Macau as junket operators -- didn't return calls.

Macau's casinos generated US$3.71 billion in gambling revenue in the first three months of this year, more than their counterparts in the Las Vegas Strip and Atlantic City, New Jersey, combined. But the share prices of casino operators such as Wynn, MGM Mirage and Las Vegas Sands Corp. have been battered in recent months, in part because of increasing challenges they face doing business in Macau.

Officials in Macau are concerned that the commissions casinos pay junket operators are escalating too fast and might squeeze profits severely for the six companies licensed to run casinos there. Casinos are a major source of employment in the former Portuguese colony, an hour boat ride west of Hong Kong.

Macau Secretary for Economy and Finance Francis Tam Pak Yuen said the Macau government would limit promoters' commissions to 1.25% of the wagers they generate for casinos. Junket operators currently earn commissions as high as 1.35%. The new cap will take effect in August, after Macau's Executive Council approves it. Violators will face unspecified fines, Mr. Tam said.

The measure is part of a broader campaign by the government to stabilize its gambling industry. Macau Chief Executive Edmund Ho in April announced a freeze on new casino licenses and limits on the number of gaming tables. Unlike casinos in Vegas, where operators have direct relationships with high rollers, Macau's casinos rely on junket operators to bring them most of their VIP business, which currently contributes about 70% of the territory's total gaming revenue.

Because casinos are leery of lending money directly to China-based gamblers, they use junket operators as intermediaries.

Some analysts expressed doubt the government would be able to ensure casinos comply with the maximum 1.25% commission, and they questioned whether the measure would achieve the aim of cooling competition among Macau's proliferating casinos. One possible result, they said: Casinos may compete more vigorously for business from junket operators by lending them more money, possibly on easier terms.

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/MK-AQ570_MACAUi_20080709184418.gif

Corrections & Amplifications

Macau's casinos generated $3.71 billion in gambling revenue during the first three months of this year, more than their counterparts in the Las Vegas Strip and Atlantic City, New Jersey, combined. An article Wednesday incorrectly said its casinos generate more gambling revenue than Las Vegas and Atlantic City combined.

Write to Bruce Stanley at bruce.stanley@wsj.com1
Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121561013945839133.html

[BTinSF]

I think Vegas has evolved past its dependancy on gambling income as the only major source of revenue. This is evident by LV successfully morphing itself into a place for singles to have fun and party, but also a place where families can do all sorts of activities that are not gambling-related but still cost a pretty penny.

That said, weakening revenue is bad for any industry so who knows whatll happen. Maybe gas prices are keeping the weekend gamblers from SoCal away?

I think your last sentence is the point. It isn't just casino revenues that are down. Hotel REVPAR (revenue per available room) is down nationally and Las Vegas may be especially vulnerable because the means of getting there--car and air--are getting much more expensive and not just for those who go there to gamble. I would think the cost would affect those who go there to "party" even more than those who gamble since you can party elsewhere--like in LA where a lot of the partyers come from. The most likely segment of Las Vegas business to hold up for a while is probably conventions, but even that may decline as attending a convention gets pricier, especially if the national economy goes into recession.

So I'm back where I started. If there are less visitors in town, what does that mean for the smaller businesses like restaurants (and other "
party" venues like clubs). Can they/will they weather the storm or are they too fragile?

[tablemtn]

Some will certainly fold if the revenue numbers remain depressed for more than nine months to a year or so, which seems to be the point at which smaller businesses trying to "ride it out" run into serious cash flow and supply purchase problems. That also depends on the ability or willingness of local banks to extend lines of credit.

One thing about conventions is that convention revenue can decline even if the number of conventions increases. That sounds counterintuitive, but conventions bring in money through attending registrants, and if there are fewer such people - or if they spend substantially less - the economy still takes a hit.

[Chicago3rd]

Since I have been going annually since 2003 I can say it has gotten a lot more expensive to go and stay and eat...so we gamble less. Which to me seems to be crazy. Doesn't LV make more money off of me if I drop a $1 in a machine verses dropping $1 at a meal?

[Gordo]

Since I have been going annually since 2003 I can say it has gotten a lot more expensive to go and stay and eat...so we gamble less. Which to me seems to be crazy. Doesn't LV make more money off of me if I drop a $1 in a machine verses dropping $1 at a meal?

Possibly. I'm not sure what the margin is for the average restaurant in Vegas, but slot payback rate hovers around 93% on the Strip:

http://www.insidervlv.com/slotspayouts.html

So, for every dollar that someone plops into a machine, the casino will keep 7 cents. It seems fairly likely that they may make more on your dollar at the restaurant, especially net. I'm sure it feels to you like they must be making more off the gambling - because you're not expecting to win - but many people do win money every day, and casinos do have pretty high overhead (surveillance, security, etc).

[lfc4life]

it ain't as bad as reported


JPMorgan gaming analyst Joe Greff said Strip revenues were hurt by a reporting method where slot machine revenues from May 30 and May 31 (Friday and Saturday) will be reported in June because the month ended on a weekend

every day i read a las vegas scare story in the press, every scare story helps lower stock price, its getting boring at this stage

casino revenues are down across the country, its always the same during a recession budget travellers don't gamble, slot revenue is badly hit, rince and repeat
Colorado http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_9508673
Conn. http://www.norwichbulletin.com/casinos/x1870705808
Illinois http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080702/OPINION03/807020449
reno http://www.lvrj.com/business/23786099.html
atlantic city http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/186/story/203174.html

to answer your question; i expect far more celeb chefs to head to vegas over the coming months with echelon, city center, fontainebleau, m, encore and cosmo all opening within the next 18 months. 24 of the most profitable independent restaurants in the US in 2007 were located on the strip. Food revenue in strip hotels in 2006 amounted to $2.2 billion, the strip is a goldmine for that market, i doubt many who spend $200 for a meal at joels or picasso are that worried by gas prices or air fares

[Top Of The Park]

They could offer more reasonable shows, rooms, buffets.....to compensate the traveler who will have to spend so much to get there. They used to have huge 50 cent shrimp cocktails for instance. Most people wont spend $250 to see the Vegas version of the Blue Man Group, when they can see the travelling version in their home town for $75....

[lfc4life]

They could offer more reasonable shows, rooms, buffets.....to compensate the traveler who will have to spend so much to get there. They used to have huge 50 cent shrimp cocktails for instance. Most people wont spend $250 to see the Vegas version of the Blue Man Group, when they can see the travelling version in their home town for $75....

it was 99 cent shrimp cocktail in the smallest hotel in downtown (golden gate) and they were losing millions on that, something like 300k a year, you can't make money on 99 cent shrimp

the most expensive seat for Blue man at the venetian is $132 and some seats go for $71. you can get great offers at the ticket discount booths for most shows now. some vegas shows are very expensive but then i don't care because i am never going to pay to watch "O"

i don't believe prices are putting people off because reno is doing far worse and that place is dirt cheap. there is still a ton of bargains in vegas if you look hard, fremont and california hotels have four course prime rib dinners for $6.99, gold coast and orleans lunch buffets are $7.99, macking is like $17 for two people plus two drinks when you sign up for a harrahs playersclub, big elvis is free everyday, there are number of places on the strip where beer is a $1.

compared to cities like NY, paris or london (in fact any decent sized city in western europe or canada/us), accommodation in vegas is stupidly cheap, most visitors fly to those locations and spend alot of money doing so i don't see any of those places slashing room prices to entice travellers and none of those cities mentioned have occupancy rates anywhere close to that of strip hotels; try and find a 800sq foot suite in paris for about $200 a night :haha: Rooms that go for under $40 a night at places like gold coast would cost at least 5 times+ that in london

last time in san antonio my run down hotel near the riverwalk cost more than a room at the bellagio :sly:

[BTinSF]

The casino developers probably dont care since many of them have casinos in Macau too that sometimes look just like their LV hotels.


Yup.

Macau Lifts Wynn as Las Vegas Falters
By KATHY SHWIFF
July 11, 2008; Page B4

Wynn Resorts Ltd. said preliminary second-quarter data show earnings at its Las Vegas casino fell in a range of 65% to 72% but its profit in the Chinese gambling mecca of Macau almost doubled.

The casino-resort operator also authorized an increase of as much as $500 million to its previously announced $1.2 billion share-buyback program.

Investors latched onto the Macau news, and Wynn's shares jumped to $79.94 in after-hours trading. The stock had fallen 9.8% to $69.94 in 4 p.m. Nasdaq trading.

Earlier Thursday, investors reacted to a report in the South China Morning Post that Wynn is considering raising as much as $3 billion from a secondary listing in Hong Kong.

A Wynn spokeswoman said the company has enough capital to fund its development plans, but she declined to comment on whether the company is planning a secondary offering in Hong Kong.

In a release after the markets closed, Wynn said it expects earnings of $18 million to $22 million at its Las Vegas operations, down from $63.4 million in the same period a year earlier. In Macau, Wynn expects $100 million to $106 million in profit, compared with $53.2 million a year earlier.

The gambling industry has experienced significant slowdowns in all U.S. markets as consumers tighten spending in the face of a weak economy and high gas prices.

Wynn is slated to report second-quarter results July 24. Analysts' latest mean estimates were for per-share earnings of 74 cents on revenue of $767 million, according to a poll by Thomson Reuters.

In May, Wynn reported first-quarter net income fell 20% as sagging Las Vegas revenue was propped up by its burgeoning operations in Macau.

Write to Kathy Shwiff at kathy.shwiff@dowjones.com1
Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121572357240643673.html

In other words, they are going to make something like 5 times as much in Macau as in Las Vegas. That's got to affect where their attention is and where they spend money of expansion.

[lfc4life]

Yup.


Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121572357240643673.html

In other words, they are going to make something like 5 times as much in Macau as in Las Vegas. That's got to affect where their attention is and where they spend money of expansion.

asians gamble 8 times that of americans but its a double edged sword, huge shopping malls in macau resorts are left empty, shows are doing poor business and gambling tax in macau is twice that of vegas.

most hotels in macau generate between 90-95% of their total revenue from gaming, gaming only accounts for 39% of total strip revenue today. visitors to macau on average spend less than 24 hrs there and many don't even stay the night but visitors to vegas while staying much longer spend far less time gambling on average than their macau counterparts

i think the likes of wynn, mgm etc are attempting to wetten the appetite of asian gamblers to come to vegas, some estimates put the number of asian visitors to vegas over the next 10 years at between 5 and 15 million

[WilliamTheArtist]

Much of the decline in Las Vegas gambling revenue is of course due to the economy in general and gas prices, however, I wonder how much of it is due to more places legalizing gambling? I dont think anyone would think of casinos in Oklahoma, but I have to tell you they are building quite a few here. I know personally because of what I do. I paint Trompe L'oeil murals, was mostly doing homes, but have recently been doing more and more casinos here in Oklahoma.

I am currently working on one that is being built right on I35 on the Texas Oklahoma border drawing in the Texas crowd. Its not just about gambling either, they are taking a cue from Vegas and making this casino an attraction. The new addition alone seems to be the size of several football fields. Each section is themed to reflect different major cities, Paris with a replica of the Arc de Triomphe, Beijing, Rome in which I am painting a mural that goes on the ceiling, that 1 mural, I am doing 5 in this casino, is over 5 stories accross. London and Madrid. I started this mural project last September and hope to finish in a couple months. There are huge hand carved, imported, stone fountains over 3 stories tall in each area, the whole thing will have a coordinated light and water show that will run the lenght of the new section. A large hotel is being built next to it. Last time I was there for an installation I had to stay the night, I had to drive almost all the way to Sherman to find an available hotel room because everything nearby was booked because of a concert that was going on at the casino. This is the 4th casino job I have had in Oklahoma in the last 2years. 2 other large casinos are expanding in my home town of Tulsa. Just the ones I know of here, and in OKC, are taking ever larger chunks of this areas, and now more of North Texas, Las Vegas market.

[lfc4life]

whatever about the recession, rising gas prices and reduction of flights into mccarran, people are still coming to vegas but they are not gambling as much as before

The number of people coming to Las Vegas in May was nearly flat, despite the fact Sin City casinos raked in 15 percent less gambling money during the month. The visitation numbers indicate people are still coming to Las Vegas, they're just spending less money.

About 3.4 million people visited Las Vegas in May, an increase of about 15,000 from the same month in 2007, according to the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority.

Air traffic into Las Vegas was down 4.7 percent and auto traffic declined 6.4 percent, suggesting more people shared rides to Nevada.


http://www.lvrj.com/breaking_news/24533914.html

[unusualfire]

^That don't make any sense. Traffic is down yet they say visitors went up??

[LMich]

I think the paragraph said exactly why. There are obviously more people coming per car and per plane.

[lfc4life]

breaking the numbers down further makes very interesting reading indeed

visitors numbers to vegas in 2008 are up slightly over this time last year
Jan-May 2007 16,324,246
Jan-May 2008 16,331,316

the number of conventions have been cut back
Jan-May 2007 11,139
Jan-May 2008 10,831

despite a nearly 3% reduction in the number of conventions being held, delegate numbers have only seen a drop of 2,000. Delegates have cut back on the amount of time they spend in las vegas with nearly 700,000 room nights less than 2007 and they have also cut back on their spending big time to the tune of $220 million

ordinary tourists have seen a massive rise in room nights spent in vegas

http://lvcva.com/getfile/ES-May2008.pdf?fileID=37

[Capsule F]

Uh oh

[Top Of The Park]

...the gambling is the major draw. There are the amazing public attractions, but would someone just go there to sit in their room and not gamble?

[Policy Wonk]

Much of the decline in Las Vegas gambling revenue is of course due to the economy in general and gas prices, however, I wonder how much of it is due to more places legalizing gambling? I dont think anyone would think of casinos in Oklahoma.

This is something I have wondered about since my employer is working on a regional casino project, but to my non-gambler eyes I don't see the appeal of this place unless your somebody who is emptying a roll of quarters into a slot machine in your sweatpants when it has none of the amenities of Las Vegas.

I can't see any "serious" gamblers having a great deal of interest in the place when isn't part of the Vegas experience getting back what you lose in the games in free rooms, free food and free shows etc?

I don't know a thing about the gaming industry, it is just my impression from being around this specific project.

[Gordo]

...the gambling is the major draw. There are the amazing public attractions, but would someone just go there to sit in their room and not gamble?

I don't think many people go to "sit in their room and not gamble", but I do know many people who go to Vegas to go to shows or shop or eat and NOT gamble. The last time I went for a convention a few months ago, I spent $20 gambling, but over $2000 on other items (I didn't personally spend that, but through the amount of my hotel rooms, dinners, etc that my employer paid).

I met up in Vegas a few years ago with friends that I hadn't seen in awhile - again, not to gamble, but because Vegas is an easy place for everyone to get reasonable plane tickets to and stay in a very nice hotel for a reasonable amount.

[dchan]

The one thing I notice is that the Chinese are far more serious gamblers than Americans are. There's a reason why Las Vegas has kept increasing its amount of non-gambling entertainment in the past decades. While I have never been to Las Vegas, I have been to Macau a few times since 1992, and it has changed quite a bit.

Back in 1992 and even 1999, Macau was a beautiful but pretty seedy town. The casinos were decidedly old-school back then; the best casino was the Lisboa, and although it's still the symbol of Macau, it's crap compared to the others cropping up now. All of these casinos were surrounded by equally seedy pawn shops selling Rolexes and other high end merchandises. But the town was just a gorgeous juxtoposition of the colonial Portuguese buildings and streets and the Cantonese traditions and food. And despite the fact that the the Sands was built in 2003 or so, much of the character still remained.

When my mother and I paid our respects to my late grandmother in the cemetery on Taipa Island in 2004, we visited the Taipa Houses (http://housesmuseum.iacm.gov.mo/main_e.htm) and had a absolutely calm and breathtaking view of the bay that the houses offered. When we went back last year, we visited the houses again and I found what I believe to be the Venetian in the process of being built. The construction looked like something out of post-apocalyptic movie: the ugly bare skeleton of this enormous building surrounded by huge cranes, scaffolds, and acetylene torches. Truly horrifying. I don't know what it looks like now across the bay, but IMO, the Venetian (and the other casinos near it) has ruined what was once a beautiful and peaceful place.

But in a way, I'm okay with it. Macau is a pretty small city but there could only be so many casinos. And unlike Vegas, there is a definite city there that wasn't built over the past decades. But the main story here is that the people coming to Macau are coming mostly for gambling, not entertainment; my parents have said that they are mostly poor to lower middle class people from China. I have a feeling that what was done in Vegas cannot be done in Macau. The casinos may be a success, but the contrived shops and other entertainment options are definitely not. Last year, my brother and I went to the Fisherman's Wharf next to the Sands and found it to be boring, ugly, contrived, and also empty: very few souls even stepped foot there, while plenty of people walked around the actual city.

[SpongeG]

I think LV will be alright... just time to beef up advertising in foreign markets. A Las Vegas vacation is a steal right now for foreigners... well, except for maybe airfare.

i saw something about british guys flying to vegas for their stag parties since its a bragin there for them with the low US $

pretty crazy to go such a long way but with good connections its doable

[SpongeG]

...the gambling is the major draw. There are the amazing public attractions, but would someone just go there to sit in their room and not gamble?

my friends were there 2 weekends ago - they never did any gambling - well other than maybe drop a $20 on a slot but they mostly checked out the sights or hung out by the pool

my friend said he never bothered to gamble - too scarey too poor

[SpongeG]

The one thing I notice is that the Chinese are far more serious gamblers than Americans are. There's a reason why Las Vegas has kept increasing its amount of non-gambling entertainment in the past decades. While I have never been to Las Vegas, I have been to Macau a few times since 1992, and it has changed quite a bit.

Back in 1992 and even 1999, Macau was a beautiful but pretty seedy town. The casinos were decidedly old-school back then; the best casino was the Lisboa, and although it's still the symbol of Macau, it's crap compared to the others cropping up now. All of these casinos were surrounded by equally seedy pawn shops selling Rolexes and other high end merchandises. But the town was just a gorgeous juxtoposition of the colonial Portuguese buildings and streets and the Cantonese traditions and food. And despite the fact that the the Sands was built in 2003 or so, much of the character still remained.

When my mother and I paid our respects to my late grandmother in the cemetery on Taipa Island in 2004, we visited the Taipa Houses (http://housesmuseum.iacm.gov.mo/main_e.htm) and had a absolutely calm and breathtaking view of the bay that the houses offered. When we went back last year, we visited the houses again and I found what I believe to be the Venetian in the process of being built. The construction looked like something out of post-apocalyptic movie: the ugly bare skeleton of this enormous building surrounded by huge cranes, scaffolds, and acetylene torches. Truly horrifying. I don't know what it looks like now across the bay, but IMO, the Venetian (and the other casinos near it) has ruined what was once a beautiful and peaceful place.

But in a way, I'm okay with it. Macau is a pretty small city but there could only be so many casinos. And unlike Vegas, there is a definite city there that wasn't built over the past decades. But the main story here is that the people coming to Macau are coming mostly for gambling, not entertainment; my parents have said that they are mostly poor to lower middle class people from China. I have a feeling that what was done in Vegas cannot be done in Macau. The casinos may be a success, but the contrived shops and other entertainment options are definitely not. Last year, my brother and I went to the Fisherman's Wharf next to the Sands and found it to be boring, ugly, contrived, and also empty: very few souls even stepped foot there, while plenty of people walked around the actual city.

there was a special about macau on the nat geo channel a while ago - that one casino opening was nuts - all the people

but they followed some chinese mainlanders who went there to gamble for the weekend and they were spending for them was a lot of money but was only like $500 US

the show seemed to say that people liked the chinese casinos - even though wynn was showy and glitzy they kind of preferred to gamble at the chinese casinos

[Crawford]

my friends were there 2 weekends ago - they never did any gambling - well other than maybe drop a $20 on a slot but they mostly checked out the sights or hung out by the pool

my friend said he never bothered to gamble - too scarey too poor

I'm sorry, but this type of stuff just amazes me! I will never understand Vegas.

Someone would honestly take two or even three planes and spend lots of time and money to sit by a hotel pool??? In the desert, no less??? Where on earth are there no hotel pools?

And people really fly from Europe, not for the purpose of gambling but to eat in the same restaurants and hang out in the same clubs and shop in the same mall stores as in every other major city on earth??

[Gordo]

:previous: I dunno, doesn't seem that crazy. Millions of people fly a long ways to sit on the beach in numerous places around the globe. Sure, the beach may have more natural beauty, but Vegas has the crazy lights and other sights - and generally better quality hotel rooms for the same price.

I agree with you that "sitting by the pool" doesn't really appeal to me either, but a lot of people do that same kind of thing in vacation spots all over the place.

[johnnypd]

Vegas is hugely popular amongst visiting brits, more than LA i'd imagine. was in vegas over the weekend and thought the casinos were pretty empty, and the strip was very threadbare in terms of pedestrian movement. for some reason i thought it would be packed.

[dchan]

there was a special about macau on the nat geo channel a while ago - that one casino opening was nuts - all the people

but they followed some chinese mainlanders who went there to gamble for the weekend and they were spending for them was a lot of money but was only like $500 US

the show seemed to say that people liked the chinese casinos - even though wynn was showy and glitzy they kind of preferred to gamble at the chinese casinos

Right. It's a lot of money for them, certainly, but it's peanuts to the casino owners. But it says a lot about the mainlanders if that's roughly the average amount each person spends and Macau's gambling revenues are still higher than Las Vegas' gambling revenues. But then again, the high rollers do spend a lot from what I've seen.

I went to the Wynn last year, which was right next to the Lisboa. I had never actually been on a Macau casiono's gambling floor until last year because of my age. There is a lot of blackjack going on, but virtually no slot machines compared with the US-style casinos. Instead, it's all table games that Americans are generally unfamiliar with. Bacarrat is still really popular there, unlike here in the US; there's also a Chinese dice-based game that really popular also.

I have never been to Vegas, so my only other two legal-gambling cities I've been to were Deadwood, SD and Nassau, Bahamas. If gambling in Vegas were anything like gambling these two cities (which it probably isn't), then it's definitely no comparison to gambling in Macau. The floor of the Wynn was completely swamped at around 10 pm at night with people playing at the tables. The shops within the mall of the Wynn, on the other hand, were virtually deserted. I cannot say what it was like at the traditional Chinese casinos, like the Jai Alai and the Lisboa, as I did not go on their gambling floors.

[alon504]

It's a sign of the economy, which is particularly bad in the West, as well as, the market showing signs of being saturated. It had to happen sooner or later.

[SpongeG]

Right. It's a lot of money for them, certainly, but it's peanuts to the casino owners. But it says a lot about the mainlanders if that's roughly the average amount each person spends and Macau's gambling revenues are still higher than Las Vegas' gambling revenues. But then again, the high rollers do spend a lot from what I've seen.

I went to the Wynn last year, which was right next to the Lisboa. I had never actually been on a Macau casiono's gambling floor until last year because of my age. There is a lot of blackjack going on, but virtually no slot machines compared with the US-style casinos. Instead, it's all table games that Americans are generally unfamiliar with. Bacarrat is still really popular there, unlike here in the US; there's also a Chinese dice-based game that really popular also.

I have never been to Vegas, so my only other two legal-gambling cities I've been to were Deadwood, SD and Nassau, Bahamas. If gambling in Vegas were anything like gambling these two cities (which it probably isn't), then it's definitely no comparison to gambling in Macau. The floor of the Wynn was completely swamped at around 10 pm at night with people playing at the tables. The shops within the mall of the Wynn, on the other hand, were virtually deserted. I cannot say what it was like at the traditional Chinese casinos, like the Jai Alai and the Lisboa, as I did not go on their gambling floors.

oh yeah the highrollers - they showed the suites and treatment they get - incredible

anyway they said some high rollers will bet $600,000 US on one go

the amount of money some gamble with is hard to imagine

[DJM19]

Vegas is hugely popular amongst visiting brits, more than LA i'd imagine. was in vegas over the weekend and thought the casinos were pretty empty, and the strip was very threadbare in terms of pedestrian movement. for some reason i thought it would be packed.

brits are pretty fond of visiting both cities. Theres even stereotypes about them here in LA, like they are the only people who walk in LA. I notice them more and more by the day so visitors must be increasing.

[lfc4life]

I'm sorry, but this type of stuff just amazes me! I will never understand Vegas. Someone would honestly take two or even three planes and spend lots of time and money to sit by a hotel pool??? In the desert, no less??? Where on earth are there no hotel pools?

europe has no desert so flying hours to the mojave desert is like making a journey to a different planet for many brits, you have some of americas best national parks within a few hours drive of the strip like grand canyon, death valley, zion and bryce. in vegas itself you have red rock canyon, valley of fire, mount charleston no more than 40 minutes from the strip and watersports on lake mead. the mojave desert is just a spectacle of colour and plant life in spring, its hard to believe its a desert at that time of year.

the weather in vegas is consistent, the weather in europe even on the med is NOT consistent in the summer, i spent a week in marseille, nice, monaco a few years back and it rained every day :(

as for pools, have you even seen some of the vegas pools to make such a statement?? many strip hotel pools like mgm grand, caesars palace, mirage are like mini waterparks; thats why wet and wild so popular in orlando did bad business in vegas and had to close

this is a shot of mandalay bays pool before they increased it in size, its now about 12 acres in size; it includes three pools, a wave pool, lazy rivers, water slides, waterfalls, cabanas, pool bars, gambling by the pool and a freaking beach with 3,000 tons of sand; they certainly don't have these types of hotel pools in europe or anywhere else in the states for that matter
http://www.wasik.ca/ayelet/Vegas/images/VegasTrip%20685.jpg

And people really fly from Europe, not for the purpose of gambling but to eat in the same restaurants and hang out in the same clubs and shop in the same mall stores as in every other major city on earth??

you make it sound like you once you visit one big city, why bother going anywhere as they all have the same stores, restaurants etc :haha:

these imo are the reasons apart from gambling tourists visit (and return) vegas and in particular the las vegas strip

-large selection of world class accommodations at a fraction of the price of cities like new york, london etc. 850ft sq foot suites at five star resorts go for how much in NY??? at the newly opened palazzo you will get one for under $230 some weekdays, comparing occupancy rates at strip hotel with motels in the valley makes interesting reading, in 2007 it was 96% versus 62%, tourists don't stay in motels while in vegas. if tourists came to vegas JUST to gamble motel occupancy rates would be hitting the upper 90s, in 2008 they are struggling with the low 50s % wise while strip hotels are still doing 90%+ despite the recession.

-world class dining: there are more 4 and 5 star restaurants on the single four mile strip (10 in total) than in many very large US cities. personally i think alot of budget travellers come to vegas for the buffets. where else on earth can you get the selection and quality of food for $20-$25 like you can get at Bellagio, Wynn, paris, mirage or PH buffets, they are almost gourmet in quality if truth be told, of course a few older vegas buffets you wouldn't feed your dog but thats another story :P

-world class shopping: i think tourists like having all their malls close to their base, you have 5 or 6 top class hotel malls right next to each other mid-strip. The outlet malls are then a short 1 maybe 2 mile bus journey from your strip hotel, unlike other cities where outlet malls are usually 20 miles away. btw the forum shops mall at Caesars palace is highest grossing mall in America per ft²

-Shows: be they headline or whatever, again like the malls you have a huge selection of shows in a small area, touring bands, big permanent acts like elton john and cher, cirque de soleil, showgirls, comedians, illusionists, magicians, old favourites like wayne newton and Barry Manilow (yes some people like those guys :koko:)

-nightclubs/bars/drinking, don't forget vegas is 24hr for that and drinking is allowed on the strip, again massive selection of bars and clubs on the strip, take your choice of piano bars, burlesque clubs, karaoke, roof top bars (mix at the top of mandalay bay is a worldclass bar and the view is stunning), fireside lounges, the choice is nearly endless; nightclubs like tryst at wynn, the bank at bellagio, pure at caesars, body english at hard rock, rain at palms and LAX at luxor are very very well known in europe

-high octane rides like those on top of the stratosphere (no ride on earth can compare with insanity hanging 1000ft off the strat and i have been to most of USA and europes top theme parks like orlando, cedar point, busch gardens, blackpool uk, PortAventura spain) circus circus themepark, NYNY rollercoaster, sahara rollercoaster, star trek the experience, indoor skydiving, test drive a NASCAR car

-some of america's best scenery within 2-3 hrs drive of the strip. the ways of reaching the parks i mentioned at the start if you don't want to drive are mindboggling. fly it, bus it, buggy it, waterraft it, cycle it, four wheel drive it or get a simple helicopter; sedona much closer to the grand canyon has a fraction of the daily helicopter departures to GC that vegas has

-go anywhere you like many buildings in other cities are offlimits; many of these new huge office buildings going up in cities across the world are lovely to look at but what then? you won't get inside the chicago spire or many of wall streets new towers as a tourist, you can walk miles around inside buildings like the wynn, bellagio, venetian etc and when you return to vegas a new hotel or two will be built for you to explore, beats just standing outside :D everything on the strip is built with the tourist in mind

-weather tourists come to vegas in the summer to experience 100+ degree weather and are disappointed if they don't get it, it was 65 degrees in vegas in late january 2007 when i brought my friends to vegas for their first ever trip (its normally raining and windy back where they live in europe in january and july :haha: ), when we arrived in chicago it was 3F with a windchill factor of -10F in the middle of the day

there are loads of other things like free outdoor attractions such bellagio fountains, sirens at treasure island, volcano at mirage, lake of dreams at wynn (though inside the hotel still free and a great show); child friendly resorts like circus circus, excalibur, orleans, aquariums, 60,000 sq feet arcades like gameworks, chocolate factory, Wildlife Habitats, shooting ranges. Those are NOT things that keep tourists coming back again and again though.

the numbers don't lie the hotels on the las vegas strip make more money from non-gaming areas today than they do from gaming, in 2007 less than 40% of total strip revenue came from gaming.

Las Vegas Strip revenue 1989
Gaming $2,023,619,120 (59.0%)

Rooms $571,938,967 (16.7%)

Food $382,878,173 (11.2%)

Beverage $226,285,368 (6.6%)

Other $226,897,520 (6.6%)

Total Revenue $3,431,619,148

Las Vegas Strip revenue 2006
Gaming $6,040,935,450 (40.4%)

Rooms $3,849,204,700 (25.8%)

Food $2,145,503,923 (14.14%)

Beverage $822,696,923 (5.5%)

Other $2,078,673,702 (13.9%)

Total Revenue $14,937,014,698

source (unlv.edu)

so a breakdown of those numbers revels that gaming revenue on the strip has grown by roughly 300%, room revenue by 690%, food revenue by 555%, beverage by 365% and other by a whopping 900%+

[peanut gallery]

I don't think I'd ever find my way back to my towel from the bathroom! :)


http://www.wasik.ca/ayelet/Vegas/images/VegasTrip%20685.jpg

(Had to remove the photo due to size.)

[DowntownCharlieBrown]

I agree, If you have seen some of the pools in Vegas, you wouldn't wonder why somebody would get on a plane and sit by the pool all day. (but be honest, that's not all they are going to do. They'll shop, have unique dinning experiences, see shows, etc. There is a lot of free entertainment.)

Example: This shot reminded me of one of the best times I had there.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3190/2683937781_424f8b14ca.jpg
lfc4life

That's a stage the arrow is pointing to. And that pool is a sand bottom pool. They have concerts at night. For me, it was about 10:00 at night, 85 degrees, in my shorts and bare feet standing in the pool with my friends and a drink in my hand while watching the B-52's. That's the unique type of experiences Vegas offers.


With that said, I do think Vegas could have some problems if gas prices continue to go up, no matter what kind of experiences they are offering. It has to do with the fact that everybody has to travel there.

[lfc4life]

With that said, I do think Vegas could have some problems if gas prices continue to go up, no matter what kind of experiences they are offering. It has to do with the fact that everybody has to travel there.

agree 100% with this; no matter how much incentives and choice you offer people you may still lose a ton of business at times like these.

speaking of pools even downtown is getting in on the act; the golden nugget has a mad pool where you can water slide through a massive shark tank; only in vegas is this possible :haha: last time i was at the nugget the pool was open to the public and here are some of my crappy photos

http://i36.tinypic.com/25rk2hc.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/s6r4ic.jpg

one of the pool
http://www.earnerz.com/learn2earn/images/authors/general_images/pools/golden_nugget.jpg
http://www.earnerz.com/learn2earn/images/authors/general_images/pools/golden_nugget.jpg

[brickell]

speaking of pools even downtown is getting in on the act; the golden nugget has a mad pool where you can water slide through a massive shark tank; only in vegas is this possible :haha:


Didn't they steal that from the Atlantis?

[lfc4life]

Didn't they steal that from the Atlantis?

thats not a pool at atlantis but an 65 acre attached water park called Aquaventure and golden nugget pool opened before aquaventure as far as i am aware

by the way Kerzner who built atlantis has plans to open a vegas resort in partnership with mgm, the location will be the vacant lot across from the sahara hotel once the site of the strips first ever hotel "El Rancho" that burned to the ground in 1960

[DJM19]

Well, quite plainly is not "only possible" in Vegas due to the fact that these are constructed attractions that can be constructed anywhere (preferably somewhere sunny...the U.S. has bountiful sunny areas).

That doesn't mean other places really are looking to build a giant pool. But they could if they so desired. Building a resort with a big pool would be a relatively easier task than say building a viable downtown, or building a natural attraction (it contradicts).

Point being, people dont want to drive as far, so they will find the suitable alternative back home. They cant go in a big pool, they will swim in their own pool. They cant go to vegas casinos, they will go to an indian casino. Cant go to a vegas club they will go to a local club (assuming they have them). A lot of things in vegas can be replaced. Maybe vegas has the package in one place, but then it lacks other things.

[lfc4life]

how do you build a "natural attraction", its hardly natural if you build it :P

[Evergrey]

europe has no desert so flying hours to the mojave desert is like making a journey to a different planet for many brits, you have some of americas best national parks within a few hours drive of the strip like grand canyon, death valley, zion and bryce. in vegas itself you have red rock canyon, valley of fire, mount charleston no more than 40 minutes from the strip and watersports on lake mead. the mojave desert is just a spectacle of colour and plant life in spring, its hard to believe its a desert at that time of year.

the weather in vegas is consistent, the weather in europe even on the med is NOT consistent in the summer, i spent a week in marseille, nice, monaco a few years back and it rained every day :(

as for pools, have you even seen some of the vegas pools to make such a statement?? many strip hotel pools like mgm grand, caesars palace, mirage are like mini waterparks; thats why wet and wild so popular in orlando did bad business in vegas and had to close

this is a shot of mandalay bays pool before they increased it in size, its now about 12 acres in size; it includes three pools, a wave pool, lazy rivers, water slides, waterfalls, cabanas, pool bars, gambling by the pool and a freaking beach with 3,000 tons of sand; they certainly don't have these types of hotel pools in europe or anywhere else in the states for that matter
http://www.wasik.ca/ayelet/Vegas/images/VegasTrip%20685.jpg



you make it sound like you once you visit one big city, why bother going anywhere as they all have the same stores, restaurants etc :haha:

these imo are the reasons apart from gambling tourists visit (and return) vegas and in particular the las vegas strip

-large selection of world class accommodations at a fraction of the price of cities like new york, london etc. 850ft sq foot suites at five star resorts go for how much in NY??? at the newly opened palazzo you will get one for under $230 some weekdays, comparing occupancy rates at strip hotel with motels in the valley makes interesting reading, in 2007 it was 96% versus 62%, tourists don't stay in motels while in vegas. if tourists came to vegas JUST to gamble motel occupancy rates would be hitting the upper 90s, in 2008 they are struggling with the low 50s % wise while strip hotels are still doing 90%+ despite the recession.

-world class dining: there are more 4 and 5 star restaurants on the single four mile strip (10 in total) than in many very large US cities. personally i think alot of budget travellers come to vegas for the buffets. where else on earth can you get the selection and quality of food for $20-$25 like you can get at Bellagio, Wynn, paris, mirage or PH buffets, they are almost gourmet in quality if truth be told, of course a few older vegas buffets you wouldn't feed your dog but thats another story :P

-world class shopping: i think tourists like having all their malls close to their base, you have 5 or 6 top class hotel malls right next to each other mid-strip. The outlet malls are then a short 1 maybe 2 mile bus journey from your strip hotel, unlike other cities where outlet malls are usually 20 miles away. btw the forum shops mall at Caesars palace is highest grossing mall in America per ft²

-Shows: be they headline or whatever, again like the malls you have a huge selection of shows in a small area, touring bands, big permanent acts like elton john and cher, cirque de soleil, showgirls, comedians, illusionists, magicians, old favourites like wayne newton and Barry Manilow (yes some people like those guys :koko:)

-nightclubs/bars/drinking, don't forget vegas is 24hr for that and drinking is allowed on the strip, again massive selection of bars and clubs on the strip, take your choice of piano bars, burlesque clubs, karaoke, roof top bars (mix at the top of mandalay bay is a worldclass bar and the view is stunning), fireside lounges, the choice is nearly endless; nightclubs like tryst at wynn, the bank at bellagio, pure at caesars, body english at hard rock, rain at palms and LAX at luxor are very very well known in europe

-high octane rides like those on top of the stratosphere (no ride on earth can compare with insanity hanging 1000ft off the strat and i have been to most of USA and europes top theme parks like orlando, cedar point, busch gardens, blackpool uk, PortAventura spain) circus circus themepark, NYNY rollercoaster, sahara rollercoaster, star trek the experience, indoor skydiving, test drive a NASCAR car

-some of america's best scenery within 2-3 hrs drive of the strip. the ways of reaching the parks i mentioned at the start if you don't want to drive are mindboggling. fly it, bus it, buggy it, waterraft it, cycle it, four wheel drive it or get a simple helicopter; sedona much closer to the grand canyon has a fraction of the daily helicopter departures to GC that vegas has

-go anywhere you like many buildings in other cities are offlimits; many of these new huge office buildings going up in cities across the world are lovely to look at but what then? you won't get inside the chicago spire or many of wall streets new towers as a tourist, you can walk miles around inside buildings like the wynn, bellagio, venetian etc and when you return to vegas a new hotel or two will be built for you to explore, beats just standing outside :D everything on the strip is built with the tourist in mind

-weather tourists come to vegas in the summer to experience 100+ degree weather and are disappointed if they don't get it, it was 65 degrees in vegas in late january 2007 when i brought my friends to vegas for their first ever trip (its normally raining and windy back where they live in europe in january and july :haha: ), when we arrived in chicago it was 3F with a windchill factor of -10F in the middle of the day

there are loads of other things like free outdoor attractions such bellagio fountains, sirens at treasure island, volcano at mirage, lake of dreams at wynn (though inside the hotel still free and a great show); child friendly resorts like circus circus, excalibur, orleans, aquariums, 60,000 sq feet arcades like gameworks, chocolate factory, Wildlife Habitats, shooting ranges. Those are NOT things that keep tourists coming back again and again though.

the numbers don't lie the hotels on the las vegas strip make more money from non-gaming areas today than they do from gaming, in 2007 less than 40% of total strip revenue came from gaming.

Las Vegas Strip revenue 1989
Gaming $2,023,619,120 (59.0%)

Rooms $571,938,967 (16.7%)

Food $382,878,173 (11.2%)

Beverage $226,285,368 (6.6%)

Other $226,897,520 (6.6%)

Total Revenue $3,431,619,148

Las Vegas Strip revenue 2006
Gaming $6,040,935,450 (40.4%)

Rooms $3,849,204,700 (25.8%)

Food $2,145,503,923 (14.14%)

Beverage $822,696,923 (5.5%)

Other $2,078,673,702 (13.9%)

Total Revenue $14,937,014,698

source (unlv.edu)

so a breakdown of those numbers revels that gaming revenue on the strip has grown by roughly 300%, room revenue by 690%, food revenue by 555%, beverage by 365% and other by a whopping 900%+

Brought to you by the Las Vegas Tourism Bureau.

[Double L]

It's sad, but it goes to show what can happen when your city is dependent on tourism.

[mdiederi]

Back in the old days when the Vegas economy was more dependent on gaming, and food, rooms and shows were loss-leaders, Vegas would hardly notice a recession. But now that the resorts have diversified and rely more on revenue from non-gaming amenities, they are more susceptible to the ups and downs of the national economy.

It will turn around eventually though, at least that's what the county commissioners think since they just awarded the contract to build a third terminal at the airport.

[DJM19]

how do you build a "natural attraction", its hardly natural if you build it :P

well thats why I said it contradicts.

[Nutterbug]

Is this supposed to be bad news?

Gambling is a bad habit anyways.

[DruidCity]

I spent 5 nights in Vegas last week.
My brother goes to a professional conference there every year, so I usually fly out there to take advantage of his paid room. It is as well set up for conferences as any city I've been to.

Someone would honestly take two or even three planes and spend lots of time and money to sit by a hotel pool??? In the desert, no less??? Where on earth are there no hotel pools?

I did lose about $80 gambling this last trip, but yeah, I enjoyed hanging out by the pool and eating at the restaurants and taking in the free attractions like the Bellagio fountains and conservatory.

Vegas is a much, much cheaper trip for me (thanks, Southwest) than most "major" cities. I'm already looking forward to at least one trip back there next year.