[rapswin!]

From the www.thestar.com

Greater Toronto is the safest large metropolitan area in the country, according to a report released yesterday by Statistics Canada.

Among urban areas with a population of 500,000 or more, Toronto residents reported fewer crimes per capita than residents of Montreal, Vancouver and Ottawa. Winnipeg had the highest crime rate, followed by Edmonton.

It is the first time that Toronto has scored last place when it comes to crime in the country's biggest cities. That spot is usually reserved for Quebec City, which reported the lowest crime rate of any large metropolitan area every year from 1991 to 2006. In 2007, however, Quebec City reported 4,524 crimes per 100,000 people, compared to Toronto's figure of 4,461.

The annual national crime report is compiled by the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, based on police-reported crime statistics.

It contradicts what seems to be a growing public perception that Toronto is rife with random violence – like the death of John O'Keefe, killed by a stray bullet on Yonge St. in January; or Hou Chang Mao, killed in gunfight crossfire a few days later in East Chinatown; or Dylan Ellis and Oliver Martin, shot dead in their SUV in front of Trinity Bellwoods Park in June.

"Unfortunately, people's perceptions are often created around a single incident or a series of incidents over a short period of time," Police Chief Bill Blair said yesterday. "That can create an impression that this is not a safe city."

He credits more and better policing for the decrease – 450 uniformed police officers have been added to the streets in the past three years – but that's not the whole story. He points to the work of community groups.

"There are many reasons in this community why crime is down," Sue Wilkinson, executive director of the Jane/Finch Community and Family Centre, said yesterday. "People have come together and there definitely is a feeling of very positive, healthy change in the community."

She cited a recent meeting for residents of the Tobermory-Yellowstone neighbourhood that drew 100 people to talk about their vision for the community. "I think it's a sign of real commitment ... People want to be part of making Jane and Finch a great place to live."

The Statistics Canada figures show all Criminal Code offences in Toronto Census Metropolitan Area (CMA) were down 11 per cent in 2007.

Blair said sophisticated anti-theft devices for cars that prevent engines from being started without the proper key have helped reduce vehicle theft, which kills 40 people in Canada each year, according to the Insurance Bureau of Canada.

The StatsCan report said property crimes may be down because rising insurance premiums are discouraging people from reporting them.

"It's not likely that it's easy to draw cause," said criminologist Neil Boyd, an author and professor at Simon Fraser University. "Any change on a year-to-year basis isn't likely to be significant unless it's extremely dramatic."

Although the effect of the Baby Boom generation on the crime rate is lessening, the aging of the population remains the single most important reason why violent crime rates have dropped over the past 30 years, said Boyd.

The rate of violent offences in Toronto – 709 per 100,000 – puts it in the safest third of the pack of CMAs with a 500,000-plus population.

The murder rate in Toronto CMA in 2007 was 2.0 per 100,000, which was middle of the pack for the country's nine largest CMAs. Winnipeg's rate was the highest at 3.6.

But in 2007, Toronto had the most homicides of any CMA – 111 – and its highest rate since 1992.

Across Canada, the level of youth violence remained unchanged. Blair said police are working to break up the organized gangs which lure young men and women into crime.

"Just as important you have to bring them better role models. In the absence of good role models, they'll choose bad role models."

The Toronto CMA, as defined by Statistics Canada, includes York, Peel, Halton and Durham and Orangeville police statistics as well as statistics from Ontario Provincial Police in Caledon, Nottawasaga, Aurora, Whitby and Mono.

Stuart Green, a spokesperson for Mayor David Miller, said he has not seen the report but it appears to be in line with local statistics.

[J. Will]

I think much of it has to do with the fact that nearly half the city is foreign-born. Immigrants commit little crime, especially when they're afraid they might be sent back "home".

[miketoronto]

I think much of it has to do with the fact that nearly half the city is foreign-born. Immigrants commit little crime, especially when they're afraid they might be sent back "home".

I don't think that is answer. This is very politically incorrect, but last I heard over 70% of crimes in Toronto are commited by immigrants. They are the ones living in the poor housing projects where 95% of the crime happens.

The western cities have higher crime rates, because they have bigger racial issues with the natives vs the whites.

[arlekin_m]

...but last I heard over 70% of crimes in Toronto are commited by immigrants...

any actual facts to back that up?

[Brandon716]

Most crimes seem to be committed by immigrants in Toronto, but the other side of that coin is that Toronto has so many immigrants its hard to tell if its above an average. There is no proof that immigrants cause crime, they just happen to be such a large part of the overall population. Toronto's stats for crime are very low among cities of the world, so the city should be proud of both its multicultural heritage and its low crime.

[miketoronto]

Almost everyone in Toronto and most of our cities are immigrants anyway, as everyone's family has come from somewhere.

But in Toronto something like 75% of murders are commited by Jamican residents. And most of them sadly seem to live in the housing projects where these murders often happen.

[Cambridgite]

I don't think that is answer. This is very politically incorrect, but last I heard over 70% of crimes in Toronto are commited by immigrants. They are the ones living in the poor housing projects where 95% of the crime happens.

It's not all immigrant groups. You don't hear too much about people gunning each other down in the Chinese or Indian communities. But I'm sure there are certain groups where there is a correlation between race/ethnicity and crime. We all know who and it has already been said.

(prepares for the accusations of "bigot" and "racist")

The western cities have higher crime rates, because they have bigger racial issues with the natives vs the whites.

Not sure where you got that one from.

Either way, congratulations Toronto! :tup:

[LouReed]

miketoronto's parents are immigrants lol


do they have higher potential for crime as well?:haha:

[Rusty van Reddick]

The western cities have higher crime rates, because they have bigger racial issues with the natives vs the whites.

"Natives versus the whites"??? In cities like Regina, Saskatoon and Winnipeg, I'll wager that the vast majority of violent crime is native-on-native. Vancouver ranks very high and has a tiny native population, relative to most other western Canadian cities.

[miketoronto]

miketoronto's parents are immigrants lol


do they have higher potential for crime as well?:haha:

Not all immigrants. Just a small amount that seem to live in the housing projects. It has more to do with income levels.

[vanman]

t's not all immigrant groups. You don't hear too much about people gunning each other down in the Chinese or Indian communities. But I'm sure there are certain groups where there is a correlation between race/ethnicity and crime. We all know who and it has already been said.

That is the most ignorant statement I've read in a long time. Any correlation between crime and race is a complete myth. Vancouver is a perfect example. Within the white, asian, and indian communities, shootings are becoming common place. Obviously this is not a good thing but what I'm trying to say is that murder in this city is distributed fairly evenly across all ethnic communities.
Just take a look at the most crime ridden area of Vancouver, the Downtown eastide. It is populated by an array of different ethnicities and no one single group dominates.In the states crime is often attributed to the black community yet in Vancouver, (although we don't have a large black population) crime attributed to blacks is very rare. It comes down to economics not skin colour.

[Cambridgite]

Any correlation between crime and race is a complete myth. Vancouver is a perfect example.

Correlation is not the same thing as causation. Being Black does not cause someone to commit crime, but blacks commit more crime, on average, than other races. People can speculate as to WHY this is, but no one knows for sure and the variables are all entangled.

Within the white, asian, and indian communities, shootings are becoming common place. Obviously this is not a good thing but what I'm trying to say is that murder in this city is distributed fairly evenly across all ethnic communities.

Well then, maybe that's something unique to Vancouver. But here in Ontario, white, asians, and indians aren't shooting each other at nearly the rate blacks are. Plus, they make up a smaller percentage of the population.

It comes down to economics not skin colour.

There is definitely a correlation between poverty and crime as well. There is also a correlation between poverty and "skin colour".

[ColDayMan]

Correlation is not the same thing as causation. Being Black does not cause someone to commit crime, but blacks commit more crime, on average, than other races. People can speculate as to WHY this is, but no one knows for sure and the variables are all entangled.

Well, there's a strong correlation between black/Hispanic populations and discrimination (regarding housing, careers, education) in urbanized areas and thus, crime occurs to "escape" these plights.

[Canadian Mind]

From the www.thestar.com

cool. Congrats TO. Must be the new cop show, none of the criminals want to get sniped.

[Cambridgite]

Well, there's a strong correlation between black/Hispanic populations and discrimination (regarding housing, careers, education) in urbanized areas and thus, crime occurs to "escape" these plights.

Yes, there is informal discrimination against Blacks and Hispanics, but there is also both informal and institutionalized racism against Whites (AA, employment equity, and other various forms of tokenism and anti-Whiteman sentiment), at least here in Canada. So I would say it cancels out. One is not discriminated against more than the other. It's just that some groups are protected while others are not. By the way, Asians and Indians have been and ARE discriminated against, but do you see them causing a lot of crime? So your point about 'discrimination' being the main cause of crime is moot. It is just another example of passing the buck.

[kool maudit]

there is informal discrimination against Blacks and Hispanics, but there is also both informal and institutionalized racism against Whites (AA, employment equity, and other various forms of tokenism and anti-Whiteman sentiment), at least here in Canada. So I would say it cancels out. One is not discriminated against more than the other. It's just that some groups are protected while others are not.




the claim that anti- and pro-white discrimination "cancels out" remains ludicrous, no matter how much sport fred reed or john derbyshire make out of being called "whiteboy" once in DC.

[urbanactivistTX]

This is really interesting... it defeats the assumptions made about size and danger... and shows that even "big cities" can be safe. In the USA, this is rarely the case (at least by public perception).

[J. Will]

This is really interesting... it defeats the assumptions made about size and danger... and shows that even "big cities" can be safe. In the USA, this is rarely the case (at least by public perception).

In Canada it's smaller cities, and even small towns that have tend to have worse, sometimes much worse crime per capita (especially murders and other violent crime) than large cities.

In http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=154521 thread, which I posted earlier, you can see that the three metros with the highest crime rates are all under 500,000 people. What you don't see is that many towns of under 100,000 people (which don't qualify as metro areas) also have very high crime rates.

It is true, as you say, that there is a common perception that larger cities are more dangerous, but this perception has no basis in fact.

[vanman]

Yes, there is informal discrimination against Blacks and Hispanics, but there is also both informal and institutionalized racism against Whites (AA, employment equity, and other various forms of tokenism and anti-Whiteman sentiment), at least here in Canada. So I would say it cancels out. One is not discriminated against more than the other. It's just that some groups are protected while others are not. By the way, Asians and Indians have been and ARE discriminated against, but do you see them causing a lot of crime? So your point about 'discrimination' being the main cause of crime is moot. It is just another example of passing the buck.

Give me a break.

[miketoronto]

Larger cities can be very safe people as there is always people walking around, etc.

Someone should tell this report to a lady I was dealing with at work the other day. Her son was coming downtown from one of the far far suburbs, and she was all concerned that he had to walk in the financial district in the middle of the day, to the lawyers office. She was so worried about him being in the middle of a shoot out or getting shot himself in the big bad financial district of Toronto.

It got to the point where I said "if he is not involved in anything questionable, he will be fine" :)

[NYC4Life]

CTV News Toronto

Three dead in Toronto shooting, reports say

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20080425/160_toronto2.jpg

Updated: Sun Jul. 20 2008 8:28:23 AM

CTV.ca News Staff

Police in Toronto encountered a gruesome murder scene in the city's west end early Sunday.

They found three people shot dead in a vehicle. Police released few details after they were called to the vehicle, which was located at Valermo and Lunness roads at 3:40 a.m.

They haven't released the genders or ages of the victims, or even how they died.

Police said all three suffered "from trauma" and that all three had been pronounced dead. But Toronto radio stations reported that sources with Emergency Medical Services in the city said the three died from gunshot wounds.

There were also reports that the victims died in a drive-by shooting, but police have not confirmed that. Police were expected to remain on the scene for much of Sunday morning and had shutdown the residential area to traffic.

[Cambridgite]

Give me a break.

Have anything of substance to contribute?

[Pinion]

That is the most ignorant statement I've read in a long time. Any correlation between crime and race is a complete myth. Vancouver is a perfect example. Within the white, asian, and indian communities, shootings are becoming common place. Obviously this is not a good thing but what I'm trying to say is that murder in this city is distributed fairly evenly across all ethnic communities.
Just take a look at the most crime ridden area of Vancouver, the Downtown eastide. It is populated by an array of different ethnicities and no one single group dominates.In the states crime is often attributed to the black community yet in Vancouver, (although we don't have a large black population) crime attributed to blacks is very rare. It comes down to economics not skin colour.

Pretty much true. If anything, white Canadian-born people from out of province are the biggest source of crime in Vancouver. But relative to other areas, you see more natives wandering around in the DTES than anyone. Of course that is a result of their culture and family structure being destroyed, which would've f-ed up any race that experienced the same thing.

Vancouver is well-deserving of being very far down on the safety list.

[ColDayMan]

Yes, there is informal discrimination against Blacks and Hispanics, but there is also both informal and institutionalized racism against Whites (AA, employment equity, and other various forms of tokenism and anti-Whiteman sentiment), at least here in Canada. So I would say it cancels out. One is not discriminated against more than the other. It's just that some groups are protected while others are not. By the way, Asians and Indians have been and ARE discriminated against, but do you see them causing a lot of crime? So your point about 'discrimination' being the main cause of crime is moot. It is just another example of passing the buck.

I'm not Canadian but I can clearly see that the statement of institutionalized racism against whites (who basically run the country) and being compared to the Native People/Blacks/Latinos seems downright illogical. Regarding Asian populations, there are certainly discriminatory practices but typically Asians are more educated (when coming to a country) than other immigrant groups and thus they have little "barriers" aside from blatant ethnic racism and language to overcome. Caribbean immigrants coming to Canada come from a country for which poverty and education levels are below the western standard (thus, they move into a "better" country).

[newboldphilly]

This is really interesting... it defeats the assumptions made about size and danger... and shows that even "big cities" can be safe. In the USA, this is rarely the case (at least by public perception).

I don't know about that. Some of the most violent places in the US are small cities in towns in the south. They just don't grab headlines because 10 murders in a year isn't numerically significant. OTOH, 1000 murders in New York is eye-popping. But statistically, in the context of over 8 million people, it's average by american standards.

I realize that the assumption is different but I was overwhelmed by the routine violence while living in the Carolinas. North Charleston, when you look at the numbers, is one scary place. I was even more taken aback by how average people thought it was and even more so by how people thought it was so much worse in places like Charlotte or Atlanta and especially by New York (which is safer than Charlotte or Atlanta).

[newboldphilly]

Well, there's a strong correlation between black/Hispanic populations and discrimination (regarding housing, careers, education) in urbanized areas and thus, crime occurs to "escape" these plights.

I'm a white guy who grew up in a mostly white environment but I have parents who came from different ethnic groups and different sides of the tracks.

For the last 15 years (i'm in my 30's) i've spent most of my time living in environments where I am the minority. For the last 5 years I've been living in what most would refer to as the 'hood. Right now there are 6 young men across the street, as they are every day and all night as well, loitering and trespassing while waiting for their next customer. Within two blocks of my house we average 5 shootings a year with at least 2 of them ending up as a homicide.

I live on the dividing line in my neighborhood. To my north is probably 80% African-American. South is probably 75% Asian (cambodian, vietnamese, indonesian), 10% black, 10% white and the other 5% split between mexicans and arabs.

I've had the opportunity over the years to observe a lot and I can go into detail if you want but from what i've seen most of what blacks and latinos perceive as race-based discrimination is actually class-based. Most of my neighbors think i'm rich and act however rich people do because i'm white and a lot of their impressions of white people come from television. Because a lot of rich people are white doesn't mean that a lot of white people are rich.

But a lot of white people have done the same thing. They equate a certain socio-economic status to being black. That's why you get the ridiculous "he's so articulate" but it's when the prejudice results in discrimination that it's racism.

From what i've seen in hiring and housing people get turned down for the way the act. I spent a few years working in a warehouse environment. I've heard black managers complain about black interviewees being "too ghetto." I've heard white managers use variations of the term "trash" in describing white interviewees. It's not PC for blacks and whites to say those things about the other race but that doesn't mean they don't apply and it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with what color you are.

I'm not trying to say there aren't racist whites. Not for a minute. Trust me, if you're not white you really have no idea because they're not going to say anything around you.

I just think that class differences have a lot more to do with discrimination than race.

[Cambridgite]

Overall, a good post, NewboldPhilly. I think you're right. Most people will judge you based on how you act, and it's easy enough to pick out the bad from the good in any race. But, in my experiences, a larger proportion of Blacks act in a trashy way than Whites. I think most stereotypes are grounded in an element of truth. What causes these patterns to occur? No one knows for sure, but I think changes have to occur from within, not by blaming the other for supposedly making you that way. Ah, but sometimes when you take away someone's crutch, they forget how to walk.

[miketoronto]

Overall, a good post, NewboldPhilly. I think you're right. Most people will judge you based on how you act, and it's easy enough to pick out the bad from the good in any race. But, in my experiences, a larger proportion of Blacks act in a trashy way than Whites. I think most stereotypes are grounded in an element of truth. What causes these patterns to occur? No one knows for sure, but I think changes have to occur from within, not by blaming the other for supposedly making you that way. Ah, but sometimes when you take away someone's crutch, they forget how to walk.

It is cultural ideals that also cause people to act a certain way. A good friend of mine is Jamican, and she is always telling me about how her fellow Jamican's bug her for going to university and college. They call her a "sellout to the whites". So in Toronto alot of Jamican people are not enouraged to go to school or pursue better paying jobs, etc, so they get suck in low income projects, which breed crime.

Since I was small, almost all the housing projects in Scarborough have been populated by Jamican's, and it is still like that today. My sister actually worked on a documentary about this issue and why Toronto's black residents can't seem to get out of poverty and crime. The guy who started the documentary and asked my sister to work with him is actually a black guy who is upset that Toronto's black community is stuck in a cycle of poverty due to many factors including cultural ideas that school is bad, etc.

[Andy6]

It is true, as you say, that there is a common perception that larger cities are more dangerous, but this perception has no basis in fact.

Well, to make sense of the concept of "dangerous" for the average law-abiding middle-class person, you'd have to look more exclusively at the number of crimes that that sort of person is subject to or potentially subject to in a given city. If it's just murders we're talking about, then a city with relatively high gun crime occurring in public places might be more "dangerous" in this sense than one where many or most of the murders or attempted murders are knifings at drunken parties (or other residential settings) in the slums. The latter don't threaten the average person nearly as much as the former.

Toronto does seem to have had a relatively high number of shootings in public places frequented by ordinary citizens, whereas a place like Winnipeg has had few shootings in public areas but many, many stabbings in areas where the average person is extremely likely to be. In other words, the higher murder rate of Winnipeg might not reflect a higher degree of danger as experienced by the average law-abiding citizen.

[JuelzJones]

But you still have to take into account that crime and murders happen more "OFTEN" in Toronto than any other city in Canada...

[Brandon716]

It is cultural ideals that also cause people to act a certain way. A good friend of mine is Jamican, and she is always telling me about how her fellow Jamican's bug her for going to university and college. They call her a "sellout to the whites". So in Toronto alot of Jamican people are not enouraged to go to school or pursue better paying jobs, etc, so they get suck in low income projects, which breed crime.

Since I was small, almost all the housing projects in Scarborough have been populated by Jamican's, and it is still like that today. My sister actually worked on a documentary about this issue and why Toronto's black residents can't seem to get out of poverty and crime. The guy who started the documentary and asked my sister to work with him is actually a black guy who is upset that Toronto's black community is stuck in a cycle of poverty due to many factors including cultural ideas that school is bad, etc.

Unfortunately this is something that is occuring in many lower economic class cultures. Its not always tied to race, there are lower educated whites in many areas of the US who look down upon college education.

Although, given the circumstances of Jamaican culture I wouldn't be surprised if most Jamaican culture looks down upon education in the culture wars.

[ColDayMan]

I'm quite baffled why anyone here would think that Jamaican culture would teach their children not to get an education. I think the underlying root is the issue of who's teaching and what is being taught, not the idea of education. That's why you're starting to see Afro-centric schools in Canada and I'm sure you'll start to see East Asian-centric, or Native-centric, or whatever. It wasn't too long ago in the United States where "Black History" or "Asian History" or "Hispanic/Native History" was shoved into a one-page article.

So Mike, when a Jamaican says to another "sellout to the whites," it isn't to say it's simply because they got an education but they got an education with a Euro-centric focus. But of course, the irony is that they are in a Euro-centric country which is naturally going to teach about the burning of the American White House over Marcus Garvey.

[ColDayMan]

I'm a white guy who grew up in a mostly white environment but I have parents who came from different ethnic groups and different sides of the tracks.

For the last 15 years (i'm in my 30's) i've spent most of my time living in environments where I am the minority. For the last 5 years I've been living in what most would refer to as the 'hood. Right now there are 6 young men across the street, as they are every day and all night as well, loitering and trespassing while waiting for their next customer. Within two blocks of my house we average 5 shootings a year with at least 2 of them ending up as a homicide.

I live on the dividing line in my neighborhood. To my north is probably 80% African-American. South is probably 75% Asian (cambodian, vietnamese, indonesian), 10% black, 10% white and the other 5% split between mexicans and arabs.

I've had the opportunity over the years to observe a lot and I can go into detail if you want but from what i've seen most of what blacks and latinos perceive as race-based discrimination is actually class-based. Most of my neighbors think i'm rich and act however rich people do because i'm white and a lot of their impressions of white people come from television. Because a lot of rich people are white doesn't mean that a lot of white people are rich.

But a lot of white people have done the same thing. They equate a certain socio-economic status to being black. That's why you get the ridiculous "he's so articulate" but it's when the prejudice results in discrimination that it's racism.

From what i've seen in hiring and housing people get turned down for the way the act. I spent a few years working in a warehouse environment. I've heard black managers complain about black interviewees being "too ghetto." I've heard white managers use variations of the term "trash" in describing white interviewees. It's not PC for blacks and whites to say those things about the other race but that doesn't mean they don't apply and it doesn't mean that it has anything to do with what color you are.

I'm not trying to say there aren't racist whites. Not for a minute. Trust me, if you're not white you really have no idea because they're not going to say anything around you.

I just think that class differences have a lot more to do with discrimination than race.

Certainly today the idea of classism (re: appearance) is certainly as strong as racism. I mean, anyone with a brain would choose a "Carlton Banks" over a "Marilyn Manson" anyday for a job if going by initial impression. But due to past historical injustices + the government not really solving the probem with deteriorating education in urban cities + communities settled in poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods just trying to survive + negative media influences (re: "bling bling, basketball players, etc") and you're going to have a tough time getting the "Carlton Banks" out of the 'hood."

Imagine if Appalachian whites urbanized into major cities. As a matter of fact, the city I live in (Columbus) has the highest proportion of crime in an Appalachian white area (and keep in mind, Columbus has a large African-American population centered on the east side), the Hilltop (west of downtown). Why? It is the dirt-poorest section of the city with a literal feeling of no hope. Columbus is an exception in a country full of contradiction but economics certainly play a key part in discovering why certain groups, not races, commit crime more often than others.

[Rail Claimore]

Put a large swath of poor, economically-disadvantaged people in a concentrated area in a relatively high population density, you get crime... much of it victimless (such as drug-use, etc). But it's that situation and subsequent government policy that causes things to go crazy, primarily because such action attempts to alleviate the symptoms rather than cure the illness.

[SpongeG]

They haven't released the genders or ages of the victims, or even how they died.

the news report i saw said they were three young males

I think most crime especially murder or shooting for the most part involves people in risky lifestyles or the victim knew or knows the shooter somehow

its not like random people getting murdered or shot

perhaps there is a mistaken identity but thats pretty rare

for the most part law abiding people are safe and free from harm

[Doug]

Well, to make sense of the concept of "dangerous" for the average law-abiding middle-class person, you'd have to look more exclusively at the number of crimes that that sort of person is subject to or potentially subject to in a given city. If it's just murders we're talking about, then a city with relatively high gun crime occurring in public places might be more "dangerous" in this sense than one where many or most of the murders or attempted murders are knifings at drunken parties (or other residential settings) in the slums. The latter don't threaten the average person nearly as much as the former.

Toronto does seem to have had a relatively high number of shootings in public places frequented by ordinary citizens, whereas a place like Winnipeg has had few shootings in public areas but many, many stabbings in areas where the average person is extremely likely to be. In other words, the higher murder rate of Winnipeg might not reflect a higher degree of danger as experienced by the average law-abiding citizen.


Great post. It may be selfish but I am more concerned about my own personal safety that about statistics.

[vanman]

Overall, a good post, NewboldPhilly. I think you're right. Most people will judge you based on how you act, and it's easy enough to pick out the bad from the good in any race. But, in my experiences, a larger proportion of Blacks act in a trashy way than Whites. I think most stereotypes are grounded in an element of truth. What causes these patterns to occur? No one knows for sure, but I think changes have to occur from within, not by blaming the other for supposedly making you that way. Ah, but sometimes when you take away someone's crutch, they forget how to walk.

I'm surprised that nobody else here was offended by this post.

[newboldphilly]

Certainly today the idea of classism (re: appearance) is certainly as strong as racism. I mean, anyone with a brain would choose a "Carlton Banks" over a "Marilyn Manson" anyday for a job if going by initial impression. But due to past historical injustices + the government not really solving the probem with deteriorating education in urban cities + communities settled in poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods just trying to survive + negative media influences (re: "bling bling, basketball players, etc") and you're going to have a tough time getting the "Carlton Banks" out of the 'hood."

But it's not really about appearance. I mean, if you want to go to an extreme like Marilyn Manson, then yeah that's going to hurt you. I can walk across the street and grab one of these black kids, dress him up, give him a hair cut, and send him to an interview but he's not going to get the job because he can't conjugate a verb. Not because of how he dresses.

Believe me, I'm incredibly unhappy about the general lack of social welfare here. It's a part of the greater american culture and if it changes at all it won't be enough. I don't mind paying high taxes when it improves everyone's quality of life (that's why I should just move back to NJ already).



Imagine if Appalachian whites urbanized into major cities. As a matter of fact, the city I live in (Columbus) has the highest proportion of crime in an Appalachian white area (and keep in mind, Columbus has a large African-American population centered on the east side), the Hilltop (west of downtown). Why? It is the dirt-poorest section of the city with a literal feeling of no hope. Columbus is an exception in a country full of contradiction but economics certainly play a key part in discovering why certain groups, not races, commit crime more often than others.

Philly is equal parts black and white - both about 41%. If you want to see what a white, big-city ghetto looks like I'd be happy to give anyone the tour. I run in to those kids on a daily basis and I can tell you that none of them are getting anywhere in life. The number of working-class whites is far greater and their opportunities aren't much better. And those white, blue-collar ghettoes extend well into Delaware, Bucks and Camden Counties and they're all going downhill fast. My wife's brother and his friends are prime examples. Early 20's, kids, baby mama's, no steady jobs, no education, no ambition and none of them know how to act. They're not an anomaly. They're everywhere and they're all over the country.

This is the sort of discussion that's normally had by well-educated metropolitans. Black, white, asian, hispanic. We all see this through the same lens of white, monied suburbs and poor, black and latino inner cities.

50% of the people living below the poverty line in this country are white. This country is full of the rural and small-town poor who are conveniently ignored in discussions like this one. The south is also full of poor, rural blacks who are ignored as well.

Some people give way too much credit to white people. My grandparents were all still living in their ethnic ghettoes up until the 1960's. And they were all second or third generation! The only reason my one grandmother got out of the Bronx is because her apartments kept getting knocked down for the Major Deegan Expressway. The only reason either of my grandfathers got out of Jersey City/Brooklyn is because of the GI Bill. Nothing else was getting them out of dead-end jobs. Most of my cousins, friends, and family are where they are because of their networks. They get jobs through friends or family. I think that's how most people settle in to careers and I think that's the only reason that the median income for whites is higher than that for blacks. I own a business and I can tell you that I give work to family and trusted friends first.

Black folks have only been full citizens since 1972. Considering, i think they're making a lot better headway than my people did. White people have had a lot more time to amass capital and hire their relatives. ;) Still, the system is stacked against most of us. Not just black people. It's designed to benefit an incredibly wealthy few and we get to make due with what spills off their plate.

But back to the point, and the point about my grandparents, people who are stuck in poverty are stuck. The way out is through a free college education and excellent terms for home-buying. Unfortunately, in this country, we had WWII and the 1950's where industry lured massive numbers of southern blacks to northern factories to either replace white workers off to war or to undercut their wages. They don't call it "the great migration" for nothing. Then fifteen to twenty years later the jobs started to disappear. You have, for all intents and purposes, an unassimilated peasantry in an unfamiliar environment that's had less than a generation to prepare their kids for entry into the middle-class and then the rug is pulled out from under them. Given that scenario it shouldn't come as a surprise that 22% of blacks live below the poverty line.

I guess my overarching point here is that the poverty rate for whites and blacks alike has been relatively stable and that's why I don't think that present racial discrimination has a lot to do with black poverty.

[newboldphilly]

Overall, a good post, NewboldPhilly. I think you're right. Most people will judge you based on how you act, and it's easy enough to pick out the bad from the good in any race. But, in my experiences, a larger proportion of Blacks act in a trashy way than Whites. I think most stereotypes are grounded in an element of truth. What causes these patterns to occur? No one knows for sure, but I think changes have to occur from within, not by blaming the other for supposedly making you that way. Ah, but sometimes when you take away someone's crutch, they forget how to walk.

It would make sense that a larger proportion of blacks than whites act ghetto. They're twice as likely to live below the poverty line. But the culture of poor whites is different than that of poor blacks for a lot of reasons, mostly historical.

Still, when encountering poor whites on the subway in a place like Boston or Philly they're often on a slightly higher rung than the poorest of blacks. I've had enough time to glean the differences but in general a group of trashy, white teenagers acts little different than a group of trashy, black teenagers. The only real difference is the accent.

Like I said before, though, unless you live in some place like Boston or Philly or Baltimore you won't really have much experience with poor, inner-city whites and unless you live in a small city or rural area you won't have much experience with poor, rural whites either.

As far as the violence goes, I'm not sure why poor blacks kill each other more often (statistically) than poor whites but my guess is that it has to do with a more mature white family and social structure. Black America hasn't had that much time to transition from their culture of slavery and sharecropping to a traditional american family structure. The people that got left behind have spawned generations of children raising children with little to no mentoring. And looking back the Irish had a similar history and similar family problems and had a similar propensity towards violence and criminality (parts of my family no exception). They were treated little differently.

My guess is that the history of many Jamaicans that moved to Toronto fall along similar lines. (btw, Jamaica is always in the top 10 most violent countries in the world)

[MolsonExport]

Overall, a good post, NewboldPhilly. I think you're right. Most people will judge you based on how you act, and it's easy enough to pick out the bad from the good in any race. But, in my experiences, a larger proportion of Blacks act in a trashy way than Whites. I think most stereotypes are grounded in an element of truth. What causes these patterns to occur? No one knows for sure, but I think changes have to occur from within, not by blaming the other for supposedly making you that way. Ah, but sometimes when you take away someone's crutch, they forget how to walk.


Well, I don't agree with this, based on my own anecdotal experiences. I spent years working in suburban Surrey (BC), and lemme tell ya, the trashiest people, by far, were the so called Trailor trash white crackers that frequented the area. OK, so there are few blacks in Vancouver. But this is not the case in Montreal, where again, I am struggling to find any memories that support your stereotype.

[Cambridgite]

It is cultural ideals that also cause people to act a certain way. A good friend of mine is Jamican, and she is always telling me about how her fellow Jamican's bug her for going to university and college. They call her a "sellout to the whites".

Sellout to the the Whites, eh? If they hate us so much, it makes you wonder why they came to Canada.

So in Toronto alot of Jamican people are not enouraged to go to school or pursue better paying jobs, etc, so they get suck in low income projects, which breed crime.

So then, it's the culture that needs to change, not a 'system of oppression' that needs to be lifted. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink from it.

The guy who started the documentary and asked my sister to work with him is actually a black guy who is upset that Toronto's black community is stuck in a cycle of poverty due to many factors including cultural ideas that school is bad, etc.

I would be upset too.

[Cambridgite]

I'm quite baffled why anyone here would think that Jamaican culture would teach their children not to get an education. I think the underlying root is the issue of who's teaching and what is being taught, not the idea of education. That's why you're starting to see Afro-centric schools in Canada and I'm sure you'll start to see East Asian-centric, or Native-centric, or whatever. It wasn't too long ago in the United States where "Black History" or "Asian History" or "Hispanic/Native History" was shoved into a one-page article.

The United States has a long history of people of many non-European backgrounds living in its borders. Besides the Native history of Canada, there weren't many non-Europeans living in Canada until the past couple of decades, and in our history classes, we still learned lots about the Natives and covered the whole thing about the Chinese building our railroads and the head tax, etc. However, given the overwhelmingly Eurocentric history of Canada, Canadian history will naturally be Eurocentric. And we don't learn much about Europe itself, btw, just that Europeans founded Canada. To say you don't want to learn Canadian history because it has too many White people in it is rather silly, and well...racist.

That said, there is no reason why kids shouldn't have the option of learning about other civilizations and their history. It's just that learning about Canadian history is most important when you're living in Canada. There can still be electives provided if you want to learn about Chinese history, American history, African history, or general World history (which IS provided). Even if it's not provided in school, there is a ton of information on the internet and libraries for those curious about other cultures. And if parents want their children to learn about their heritage so much, why don't they teach them? That's not the job of the state, especially in such a diverse country where that would be impossible.

[Cambridgite]

Imagine if Appalachian whites urbanized into major cities. As a matter of fact, the city I live in (Columbus) has the highest proportion of crime in an Appalachian white area (and keep in mind, Columbus has a large African-American population centered on the east side), the Hilltop (west of downtown). Why? It is the dirt-poorest section of the city with a literal feeling of no hope. Columbus is an exception in a country full of contradiction but economics certainly play a key part in discovering why certain groups, not races, commit crime more often than others.

Interesting. My friend used to live in a public housing complex and back when he lived there, it was full of Newfies (from the Canadian province of Newfoundland) from Bell Island. Bell Island is an extremely poor mining community that shut down in the 70s, and when it did, a lot of them came to Cambridge looking for factory jobs. I think a reasonable comparison could be made between them and Appalachian Whites. Mind you, they've assimilated almost entirely now, but the area used to have a reputation for having a lot of drunks and a lot of fights. Even funnier, the area is safer now that the complex has become increasingly Muslim (Pakistani).

[SpongeG]

did anybody follow that case in the states where an east indian immigrant family living in the states - their son married a black girl secretly and they had a baby - the son couldn't tell the family that he loved the girl or that they had gotten married - anyway the family found out and the couple moved away and not too long afterwards the father hired someone to murder the girl

pretty sad story

anyway that case seemed to expose the racist views that apparently exist among the indian community believing that blacks are the lowest of the low when it comes to american society - indians come from that caste system back in india which is big factor as to their views - CNN did a story about it after the court case ended...

pretty eye opening

[Cambridgite]

Well, I don't agree with this, based on my own anecdotal experiences. I spent years working in suburban Surrey (BC), and lemme tell ya, the trashiest people, by far, were the so called Trailor trash white crackers that frequented the area. OK, so there are few blacks in Vancouver. But this is not the case in Montreal, where again, I am struggling to find any memories that support your stereotype.

Haven't been to Surrey, but I'll believe you.

I've been to Montreal only briefly, so I couldn't comment. But here, I'll at least acknowledge a difference between suburban Blacks versus urban ghetto Blacks (mostly young male, African refugees). With the latter, I'm talking about the ones who hang out at bus terminals, nightclubs, and in the downtown area, cursing loudly, using ghetto slang, and dressing like gangsters. Hey, maybe if I got to know them, I'd like them. But intimidating first impressions make an impact, so I keep my distance. With suburban Blacks who I have gone to school with, worked with, and lived near, it's a different ball game and I don't find them overly different from everyone else and have even grown to like some of them. I've never said there weren't multiple correlations working at play at the same time, because there certainly are.

[MonkeyRonin]

Well, to make sense of the concept of "dangerous" for the average law-abiding middle-class person, you'd have to look more exclusively at the number of crimes that that sort of person is subject to or potentially subject to in a given city.

Toronto does seem to have had a relatively high number of shootings in public places frequented by ordinary citizens, whereas a place like Winnipeg has had few shootings in public areas but many, many stabbings in areas where the average person is extremely likely to be. In other words, the higher murder rate of Winnipeg might not reflect a higher degree of danger as experienced by the average law-abiding citizen.

Regardless, in either city, one's chance of being murdered is incredibly low to nearly nonexistent. Rather, when determining safety, we need to look at crimes that are actually likely to effect law-abiding people - such as robbery or burglary (just as you said). And well, let's just do a quick comparison of Winnipeg with Toronto...violent crime: 1,256 vs. 738/100,000; robbery: 272 vs. 116; burglary: 1,065 vs. 404; auto theft: 1,932 vs. 294.

Source: http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2896/2006crimedatacmakj2.jpg


But you still have to take into account that crime and murders happen more "OFTEN" in Toronto than any other city in Canada...

Aaaand...how is this relevant again?


This is really interesting... it defeats the assumptions made about size and danger... and shows that even "big cities" can be safe. In the USA, this is rarely the case (at least by public perception).

Similarly, New York is the country's safest major city, and Los Angeles is one of the safest, despite their reputation for being otherwise. And if we're looking at reputation, then Toronto is usually portrayed as a scary crime-infested slum by the Canadian media.

[Cambridgite]

So, any particular measures Toronto took in order to reduce its crime rate? I've noticed a lot less reportings of shootings on the news lately as opposed to the previous few years.

[MonkeyRonin]

So, any particular measures Toronto took in order to reduce its crime rate?

It didn't. Toronto has ALWAYS been one of the safest cities in Canada. And while homicide is significantly down in 2008, it generally seems to fluctuate from year to year.

[Segun]

Overall, a good post, NewboldPhilly. I think you're right. Most people will judge you based on how you act, and it's easy enough to pick out the bad from the good in any race. But, in my experiences, a larger proportion of Blacks act in a trashy way than Whites. I think most stereotypes are grounded in an element of truth. What causes these patterns to occur? No one knows for sure, but I think changes have to occur from within, not by blaming the other for supposedly making you that way. Ah, but sometimes when you take away someone's crutch, they forget how to walk.

After being at an institution of "higher learning" thats primarily attended by white students, I've witnessed:

- peeing on rapid transit
- sexual acts in a living room full of people
- vomiting on the street
- wearing Pajamas to class and going bare feet
- people not taking showers
- relentless alcohol consumption on school nights
- STD breakouts

And this isn't just Fratboys either, its so called "hipsters" too. The black experience at the same school is different, and more serious, as its full of people who have more to lose if they don't succeed. The exception is Basketball Players.

if anything, being at college taught me that the environment you're in defines your behavior more than the person itself, and given no rules and a poor structure, anyone will resort to debauchery, especially our "upper class"

Changes have to occur from within is another way to say "its not my problem, handle it yourself". Then one day you happen to get robbed by someone from the projects, then you'll be singing another tune, and running to the Police. Then perhaps they should respond in kind: "we can't do anything, changes have to occur from within!!".

[Cambridgite]

After being at an institution of "higher learning" thats primarily attended by white students, I've witnessed:

- peeing on rapid transit
- sexual acts in a living room full of people
- vomiting on the street
- wearing Pajamas to class and going bare feet
- people not taking showers
- relentless alcohol consumption on school nights
- STD breakouts

And this isn't just Fratboys either, its so called "hipsters" too. The black experience at the same school is different, and more serious, as its full of people who have more to lose if they don't succeed. The exception is Basketball Players.

Of course people who have been given opportunities all their lives are capable of squandering them. I would expect a black (or any race) student who grew up in a poor environment and has taken every opportunity for self-improvement would take their education a lot more seriously than someone who can take it for granted. Never did I say that everyone starts on an equal footing.

Changes have to occur from within is another way to say "its not my problem, handle it yourself". Then one day you happen to get robbed by someone from the projects, then you'll be singing another tune, and running to the Police. Then perhaps they should respond in kind: "we can't do anything, changes have to occur from within!!".

Of course the innocents within and outside the community need to be protected from vicious thugs. Police need to do their job and hold the perps accountable. What needs to change from within is the attitude of "it's someone else's fault" or "going to school is selling out to the White man". Now why would I want to help someone who doesn't even want to help themselves? As for those who want to help themselves, I wish them the best, but it's not ultimately in my control what they do with their lives. So how do you help the community? Liberals will call for "more welfare", "racial preferences", etc, which fosters an attitude of self-entitlement. I love the idea of scholarships and students loans...they help, but what more can you do to make sure everyone can be self-sufficient?

[Segun]

^ The idea of poor people buying into this idea of "selling out" and "its someone else's fault" is such a overreported myth that happens about as much as any other sensationalized news story. Of course if you base your opinion on Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, it will seem like its reality. I worked for the Dept of Welfare in Chicago in its most violent district. The amount of people on welfare are not the majority of the people who live in these poor neighborhoods, and of that number, the majority of them aren't dependent on it. Each case is unique, but the media doesn't report this, because once again, it doesn't confirm widely held ideas by liberals or conservatives. Nor does the media report that a large number of welfare recipients make money under the table selling drugs. As far as "selling out", its taken out of context completely. No black person of any descent would accuse someone of intelligence such as Michael Eric Dyson of "selling out". Thats complete and utter bullshit, and if anyone ever said it, its one of three reasons.

- Said person has become more educated, but erased all traces of their "blackness" i.e. Tiger Woods
- Said person has become dependent on the corporate system and mainstream
- Person who made said statement is jealous of the other

The hood is full of some of the most self-sufficient people, its just misguided.
It may be ugly, but someone who goes out and robs other is self-sufficient, and so is someone who sells drugs, standing on the same corner for 15 hours a day. If anything, people in these situations are creative in their hustle, and have the balls to take it further with the right direction. Jay-Z went from streetcorner hustler to part owner of a Basketball Franchise and part of the Fortune 500.

Its all our faults for allowing it to happen and fester, including the people in it. If an outbreak of a virus happened with a small group of population and it threatened to spread, you wouldn't just rely on them to cure it themselves, especially if its creation was by your past practices. But now it seems the mentality is to attempt to quarantine it, but its progressed way beyond that, and it evolves with every generation. This same analogy applies to the the environment as well as people.

[JuelzJones]

It didn't. Toronto has ALWAYS been one of the safest cities in Canada. And while homicide is significantly down in 2008, it generally seems to fluctuate from year to year.

yes toronto has always been one of the safest cities in canada and the homicide rate has been in the top 5 the past few years....this is def. a good thing but the city just doesn't SEEM to be one of the safest. The homicide rate isn't significantly down but it is better than last year, they have 35 murders now compared to 41 last year which ended up with 84

[Cambridgite]

^ The idea of poor people buying into this idea of "selling out" and "its someone else's fault" is such a overreported myth that happens about as much as any other sensationalized news story. Of course if you base your opinion on Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, it will seem like its reality.

I'm referring to the followers and fans of Jesse and Al. Of course, they don't represent all or even the majority of Blacks, or even poor Blacks. Only as muchso as David Duke represents the viewpoints of the White community. The problem is, it is these people who have the loudest voice, and they have the ability to impact policy matters. Marxism is constantly reinforced through our governments, media, and education system. It is brainwashing people to think they have no control over their lives and give up or take opportunities from others they see as "privileged" because "the system" is against them. People don't always start out on the same foot, and there are always things we as a society can do to help, but to narrow all differences in outcome down to the effects of "discrimination" is faulty.

^ As far as "selling out", its taken out of context completely. No black person of any descent would accuse someone of intelligence such as Michael Eric Dyson of "selling out". Thats complete and utter bullshit.

Then what is Miketoronto talking about? Going to university doesn't mean you stop being Black...that is stupid. If "acting Black" is defined as making money through degenerate means and chasing the MTV stereotype, then there is a problem with how those Black individuals define themselves and what it means to be Black. It's that mentality that needs to change and the rest of society can't do it for them. We can be supportive, but can't change the way they think.

Its all our faults for allowing it to happen and fester, including the people in it. If an outbreak of a virus happened with a small group of population and it threatened to spread, you wouldn't just rely on them to cure it themselves, especially if its creation was by your past practices.

What past practices? And please, what is your ingenious plan to cure it, which hasn't already been tried?

[elsonic]

...Toronto's black community is stuck in a cycle of poverty due to many factors including cultural ideas that school is bad, etc.

from what Ive heard, the many complaints about the school system were not as simple as «school is bad», but that the classes and activities are totally caucasian-european-oriented and that everything that is more afro-cultural is totally ignored, even in History classes. wich is why the project of an «afrocentric» school is on its way in Toronto.

[Segun]

I'm referring to the followers and fans of Jesse and Al. Of course, they don't represent all or even the majority of Blacks, or even poor Blacks. Only as muchso as David Duke represents the viewpoints of the White community. The problem is, it is these people who have the loudest voice, and they have the ability to impact policy matters.

They only have the loudest voice because the media goes directly to them for an opinion. Someone with credentials like MED tends to get swept under the rug.


Then what is Miketoronto talking about? Going to university doesn't mean you stop being Black...that is stupid. If "acting Black" is defined as making money through degenerate means and chasing the MTV stereotype, then there is a problem with how those Black individuals define themselves and what it means to be Black. It's that mentality that needs to change and the rest of society can't do it for them. We can be supportive, but can't change the way they think.


What the hell are you talking about? Like the other 90% of what Miketoronto says, its bullshit. This idea of selling out does not exist for the most part and its made up, and acting black is not defined through any MTV stereotype, thats even more bullshit, and has no basis in reality whatsoever, unless you get your information from MTV.



What past practices?

If you don't know, you need a history lesson Cambridgite, and I don't have the time to provide you with that. Go visit your local library, watch the whole Eyes on the Prize series, hell do something productive.



And please, what is your ingenious plan to cure it, which hasn't already been tried?

Please! You think its that simple? And you think even if it was that simple I'd reveal my hand to you? Get the fuck out of here! LOL! Go play somewhere kid, cause you have a lot to learn.

[someone123]

from what Ive heard, the many complaints about the school system were not as simple as «school is bad», but that the classes and activities are totally caucasian-european-oriented and that everything that is more afro-cultural is totally ignored, even in History classes. wich is why the project of an «afrocentric» school is on its way in Toronto.

This argument seems very far-fetched and is likely therefore just being used as a pretext or an excuse to explain poor performance. Most of the P-12 curriculum is or should be focused on imparting useful life skills to students, and these are mostly the same regardless of what ethnic group they belong to. Math, science, language classes, physical education, and other courses are not really Eurocentric. As for the rest, when I was in school we covered topics for Black History Month. As far back as elementary I remember that we had speakers in. I've written essays on Marcus Garvey as well.

I also know people who have taught in schools with poor, inner-city black children in Halifax (less so like most black people you find in the rest of Canada - in fact it is ridiculous to pretend all black people in NA are the same - and more like in Northern US inner cities). In many cases the problems are very fundamental, e.g. parents don't pay attention to their children, don't feed them properly, etc. This is really what should be addressed. Setting up a special school with more of a focus on black history is not going to help. In fact, it may harm black students since often integrated schools benefit from the involvement of other parents.

I would be in favour of having a class about African history or some expanded global geography/sociology type class open to anybody. Maybe some schools already have this.

It is also good to see newboldphilly point out that these are also all kinds of poor white people in North America. There is a moneyed upper class and it happens to largely consist of white people but they make up only a small percentage of the overall white population. The rest are not necessarily given any big advantages.

[Grimm]

I'm referring to the followers and fans of Jesse and Al. Of course, they don't represent all or even the majority of Blacks, or even poor Blacks. Only as muchso as David Duke represents the viewpoints of the White community. The problem is, it is these people who have the loudest voice, and they have the ability to impact policy matters.

Culture is dynamic. As Michael Eric Dyson said, everything negative that was said about Jesse and Al was said about MLK. Funny how a few decades (or one generation) can change perceptions -- can being the operative word.

You have to feel sorry for the ones that don't know when to retire.

[Cambridgite]

They only have the loudest voice because the media goes directly to them for an opinion. Someone with credentials like MED tends to get swept under the rug.

Well that's unfortunate, isn't it?

If you don't know, you need a history lesson Cambridgite, and I don't have the time to provide you with that. Go visit your local library, watch the whole Eyes on the Prize series, hell do something productive.

Hah! Are you implying that the situation of Toronto's Jamaican community is somehow tied to American slavery or White oppression? What did Canadian White people ever do to Canadian Blacks? We're having the same problems up here (to a lesser degree), but with a completely different history. Most American Blacks are slave descendents while Canadian ones are immigrants or the offspring of immigrants. Different history of relations, same unequal outcomes.

Please! You think its that simple? And you think even if it was that simple I'd reveal my hand to you? Get the fuck out of here! LOL! Go play somewhere kid, cause you have a lot to learn.

Funny how you insinuate that Whites continue to owe Blacks for our "sins of the past", but you can't even figure out how to finally level the playing field. How much longer will Whites be in debt?

[Cambridgite]

This argument seems very far-fetched and is likely therefore just being used as a pretext or an excuse to explain poor performance. Most of the P-12 curriculum is or should be focused on imparting useful life skills to students, and these are mostly the same regardless of what ethnic group they belong to. Math, science, language classes, physical education, and other courses are not really Eurocentric. As for the rest, when I was in school we covered topics for Black History Month. As far back as elementary I remember that we had speakers in. I've written essays on Marcus Garvey as well.

I also know people who have taught in schools with poor, inner-city black children in Halifax (less so like most black people you find in the rest of Canada - in fact it is ridiculous to pretend all black people in NA are the same - and more like in Northern US inner cities). In many cases the problems are very fundamental, e.g. parents don't pay attention to their children, don't feed them properly, etc. This is really what should be addressed. Setting up a special school with more of a focus on black history is not going to help. In fact, it may harm black students since often integrated schools benefit from the involvement of other parents.

I would be in favour of having a class about African history or some expanded global geography/sociology type class open to anybody. Maybe some schools already have this.

It is also good to see newboldphilly point out that these are also all kinds of poor white people in North America. There is a moneyed upper class and it happens to largely consist of white people but they make up only a small percentage of the overall white population. The rest are not necessarily given any big advantages.

:yes:

I agree with everything you just said here.

[Segun]

Hah! Are you implying that the situation of Toronto's Jamaican community is somehow tied to American slavery or White oppression? What did Canadian White people ever do to Canadian Blacks? We're having the same problems up here (to a lesser degree), but with a completely different history. Most American Blacks are slave descendents while Canadian ones are immigrants or the offspring of immigrants. Different history of relations, same unequal outcomes.


I'm not even talking about Canadian blacks, that strayed from the topic a while ago. Obviously working on the West Side of Chicago I don't encounter CANADIAN welfare recipients. I'm speaking from an American perspective. Nor does Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton speak to Canadian race relations.



Funny how you insinuate that Whites continue to owe Blacks for our "sins of the past", but you can't even figure out how to finally level the playing field. How much longer will Whites be in debt?


Who's insinuating?

I can't figure what out? Fool, I was the president of the BSU of DePaul last year and did community service projects and initiatives and "figured more out" than you can ever imagine my snide, arrogant friend.

[Cambridgite]

Who's insinuating?

Its all our faults for allowing it to happen and fester, including the people in it. If an outbreak of a virus happened with a small group of population and it threatened to spread, you wouldn't just rely on them to cure it themselves, especially if its creation was by your past practices. But now it seems the mentality is to attempt to quarantine it, but its progressed way beyond that, and it evolves with every generation. This same analogy applies to the the environment as well as people.

^My question had to do with how "our" past practices had anything to do with the gun violence plaguing the Jamaican communities of Toronto, crime/delinquency in the Black community in Halifax, etc. In this case, I'm not sure what 'past practices' you're referring to.

[elsonic]

This argument seems very far-fetched and is likely therefore just being used as a pretext or an excuse to explain poor performance. Most of the P-12 curriculum is or should be focused on imparting useful life skills to students, and these are mostly the same regardless of what ethnic group they belong to. Math, science, language classes, physical education, and other courses are not really Eurocentric. As for the rest, when I was in school we covered topics for Black History Month. As far back as elementary I remember that we had speakers in. I've written essays on Marcus Garvey as well.

I also know people who have taught in schools with poor, inner-city black children in Halifax (less so like most black people you find in the rest of Canada - in fact it is ridiculous to pretend all black people in NA are the same - and more like in Northern US inner cities). In many cases the problems are very fundamental, e.g. parents don't pay attention to their children, don't feed them properly, etc. This is really what should be addressed. Setting up a special school with more of a focus on black history is not going to help. In fact, it may harm black students since often integrated schools benefit from the involvement of other parents.

I would be in favour of having a class about African history or some expanded global geography/sociology type class open to anybody. Maybe some schools already have this.

It is also good to see newboldphilly point out that these are also all kinds of poor white people in North America. There is a moneyed upper class and it happens to largely consist of white people but they make up only a small percentage of the overall white population. The rest are not necessarily given any big advantages.

my guess is that the general structure, the schedules, the activities, the services, the discipline, the whole organisation may be taken into consideration. not just the academic program.

anyway, I was not commenting on the project, just reporting. I am not comfortable in participating actively in this debate. some issues have to be dealt within the concerned community. like other social groups, feminists, gays, whoever it is and whatever the problem is, sometimes it's good to be 'between us' for such important decisions. if the Black community wants to experiment an afrocentric school, I can only say : give it a try for a couple of years and see the results.

here in Montréal - project on its way too, the community seems to be 50-50%.

[Segun]

^My question had to do with how "our" past practices had anything to do with the gun violence plaguing the Jamaican communities of Toronto.

"What past practices?"

Well, perhaps all that you meant by that question is coded in binary between the letters or needs secret 3D glasses to uncover the rest of the sentence because thats all I see.

Your question did not firmly state that, and we were talking of the American situation after you hijacked the topic. If you wanted to keep the topic on its path, you should of never let it go to astray and run off at the cuff about your experiences with "black people" in general, and confined it to Black Canadians.....But I think you know that, and you're trying to save face by ignoring everything else and lingering on that single point. Now your own foot is firmly lodged in your mouth and mine is on a collision course to intersect it from your ass. But I'm a forgiving man, so I'll remove it and give you the advice to go somewhere with your naive, psuedo-intellecutalism and learn about real life through actual experience, have a cup of tea and a middle finger on me....

Sincerely,


Segun Adisa Dent

[kool maudit]

cambridgite:

firstly: there were slave markets in montreal and halifax. slaves were executed at the pointe a calliere.

secondly: jamaica and jamaicans are not entirely unconnected to the history of slavery.

thirdly: if you think black communities in canada are unconnected to the history of slavery in the u.s., you should go to halifax and maybe check out the black history museum there also.

you have a very talk-radio, "damn kids and their baggy pants," roll-up-the-windows view of north american race relations.

[JuelzJones]

another murder by a gun today

[newboldphilly]

After being at an institution of "higher learning" thats primarily attended by white students, I've witnessed:

- peeing on rapid transit
- sexual acts in a living room full of people
- vomiting on the street
- wearing Pajamas to class and going bare feet
- people not taking showers
- relentless alcohol consumption on school nights
- STD breakouts


Those stereotypes (of middle-class white kids) are extremely well-worn in the black community. Middle-class or otherwise. C'mon, the dirty, white kid still in his PJ's, all hungover, chewing on stale pizza?

Personally, I can't say I've seen middle-class black kids doing those things. I'd like to say that it's because they don't but it's more likely to be because I didn't live on campus and because around here the black middle-class lives in the suburbs and I don't have that much contact with them.

Of course, for your purposes, you're confusing having middle-class money and having middle-class values . . . that would be the difference between the socio and the economic. It might be your position that most middle-class, black, post-adolescents have middle-class values and their economic white counterparts are lacking. There are plenty of white people around here with a lot more money than I who go to the store in sweatpants or who hang outside in their pajamas. Unless i'm at the gym you won't catch me outside of the house in sweatpants.

It doesn't really matter either way because ethnicity (or money) doesn't influence behavior. Environment does. And that's more to my point . . . too many people, black and white, think that white people (as if we're all the same and all belong to the same club) populate this estimable social and economic world where everything is as close to perfect as possible. It's not. It's full of holes and anyone who spends 2 minutes looking up close can point them out. (as you've done above)

and seriously, history is what, one class per semester for half of high school? And what makes you think that white kids have any interest or feel any connection to learning about ancient Rome or King Henry's England?

[Segun]

if anything, being at college taught me that the environment you're in defines your behavior more than the person itself,


"Do you listen to music or do you just skim through it" - Jay-Z

[UglymanCometh]

So then, it's the culture that needs to change, not a 'system of oppression' that needs to be lifted. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink from it.

Well, at least we can agree on THIS. It's no secret that the overall culture of fast money and fast women - which helps accelerate urban crime problems - needs to be eradicated.