[Dmajackson]

Since it is summer time, the councillors are on vacation, and there are no developments in the news i thought we could start thinking of what we would do with some big parcels of land in HRM (specifically in Hfx, Bfd or Dart.).

Shannon Park is a former military housing community in Dartmouth adjacent to the MacKay Bridge, Burnside, Halifax Harbour, BIO, and Tuft's Cove. It was built in 1950 and was abandoned officially in 2004. The site includes small apartment buildings, a church, a wharf/jetty, a school, and a park (part of the school).
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/33/41229110_efbd4a0dbe.jpg
Credit: wdrwilson @ flickr.com (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/33/41229110_efbd4a0dbe.jpg)

Pro's:
-near Burnside, MacKay Bridge, Hwy 111 and retail on Windmill Road.
-has a shoreline on the Harbour.
-Adjacent to BIO.

Con's:
-Adjacent to low-income, crime-ridden neighbourhoods.
-Next to Tuft's Cove Power Generating Station.
-Loud neighbourhood (MacKay Bridge, Circ, railroad, ect).

So what do you think Shannon Park should be redeveloped into and when should this happen?

[Dmajackson]

For me an ideal redevelopment of Shannon Park would include:

-A trail around the shoreline,
-Retail on Princess Margaret Blvd from CN - Baffin Blvd,
-Residential within the park with the possibility of office,
-Parks at Turple Head and the other head.
-The jetty would become a small ferry terminal.

[hfx_chris]

I still cling to the notion that Shannon Park is the perfect site for a stadium, especially with its easy access to the circ and MacKay bridge. A stadium with parking, park area with possibility of a ferry connection at the shoreline and some retail adjacent to Princess Margaret Blvd. Assuming it will all fit :)

[phrenic]

I also think it is most suitable for a stadium. Whether Halifax needs/can afford/can support a stadium, I don't know

Another thought - I always thought RIM's "campus style" office would have fit in there.

[Spitfire75]

I like the stadium idea.
But other than that, some nice dense mixed use buildings would be good.
With more residential closer to the water. Throw a ferry terminal in there for good measure.

[sdm]

I also think it is most suitable for a stadium. Whether Halifax needs/can afford/can support a stadium, I don't know

Another thought - I always thought RIM's "campus style" office would have fit in there.

I concur that a stadium would be best for the site. However i am sure the downtown bars and hotels would scream murder if it was to happen.

If it doesn't happen there then it will be cogswell interchange area. I believe the economic's work better for shannon rather then cogswell. Besides cogswell will be the only area without height restrictions for downtown once HRM by design goes through, therefore making it extremely valuable land which would be wasted with a low rise structure.

[hfx_chris]

It would be tight fitting an arena on the Cogswell site, let alone a stadium..

Speaking of the RIM campus, I recall hearing at work that the federal government was considering building a campus style office complex on the Shannon Park site to be used by multiple departments, including Environment Canada and DFO. But that was just water cooler talk.

[Keith P.]

A stadium (I presume we are talking an outdoor football/soccer venue) only makes sense there if you can build a community around it that has restaurants, bars, and some residential. Stadia located on expressways in suburbia or in parking lots in industrial areas generally don't do much for the cities they are in with regard to creating an atmosphere.

The other thing about a stadium there is that being right on the harbour you are looking at much cooler temps for spectators and issues with fog. Ask anyone who spent time in Candlestick Park in SF or the old Cleveland Municipal Stadium on the shore of Lake Erie. Not pleasant.

I don't think we really have a perfect spot for an outdoor stadium here unless you razed some of the slummy areas around Gottingen St., but even that would have issues with traffic and parking. If you were to put it out by the BLIP you could avoid those problems to some extent and at least the restaurants in the park would benefit.

[terrynorthend]

The other thing about a stadium there is that being right on the harbour you are looking at much cooler temps for spectators and issues with fog. Ask anyone who spent time in Candlestick Park in SF or the old Cleveland Municipal Stadium on the shore of Lake Erie. Not pleasant.

If you were to put it out by the BLIP you could avoid those problems to some extent and at least the restaurants in the park would benefit.

BLIP is also a terrible place for an outdoor Stadium as that area of the city is very fog prone. Everytime I watch evening soccer out on Mainland Common it is often obscured by fog, long before it settles onto the peninsula. Problem is the high plateau of Bayers Lake that is exposed to the southwest.

[hfx_chris]

A stadium (I presume we are talking an outdoor football/soccer venue) only makes sense there if you can build a community around it that has restaurants, bars, and some residential. Stadia located on expressways in suburbia or in parking lots in industrial areas generally don't do much for the cities they are in with regard to creating an atmosphere.
Agreed 100%; fortunately there is residential in the area, and I'm hoping they would also devote a small section of the land to commercial/retail developments, which might also give incentive to spruce up the Windmill Road area around the KOD/Frans.

[pascalosti]

I always wondered what was up with those buildings!!
I think a mixture of park land, sports fields, trail along the water, maybe some new housing in the mix. Its a big area and dartmouth has way too mucn wasted shore lines.

[halifaxboyns]

I just did a quick check and Canada Lands is not showing it as a project - so I'm assuming DND still retains control?

If they follow typical GOC protocol - they will provide it to Canada Lands; who I hope will do a major project there. They have done Garrison Woods here in Calgary and it is amazing to walk through - all the roads are named after various historic war themes (like Vimmy Ridge, etc) and there is a huge monument in the middle. They are also doing the Village at Griesbach; which is former military land. The Currie Barricks west project and Garrison Green are also there projects here in Calgary - for conversion of old military property into mixed use villages.

For those who may not know about these project; here are some interesting links:
Garrison Woods (http://www.garrisonwoods.com/en/maps.htm)
The Village at Griesbach (http://www.villageatgriesbach.com/)

I should point out both projects have been very successful and turned into very high valued properties. When I first visted Calgary; most of the homes in Garrison Woods were going for an average of $350k. They are now averaging about $575K (depending on location) - I saw one that was going for $950K.

One question I would ask though - is about Wallace Heights and the land to the NE and NW. What is that land being used for? I know the gypsum loading facility is there and industrial land is to the NE with the rail line - but there seems to be potential to expand the Wallace Heights area as well?

One last comment I'd make about Shannon Park. If it is built up as a mixed use community - I could see that it would be a candidate for a stadium; if intergrated correctly. The stadium could be part of a component of the waterfront; with a boardwalk, marina and a high speed ferry link to downtown for commuters (with bus service coming down from Highfield Terminal and from Wallace Heights). The boardwalk and marina could then include mixed use buildings much like Bishops Landing - but I would say much taller - the taller parts probably in the 10 to 15 storey range, but the lower points being no less than 5 storeys.

[spaustin]

Garrison Woods is a great little development, but not everything Canada Lands does is innovative. They're the ones who sold the property on the South End of Barrington Street to the Superstore which has left us with a gas station and parking lot fronting Cornwallis Park. Hopefully more effort will go into Shannon Park.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Garrison Woods is a great little development, but not everything Canada Lands does is innovative. They're the ones who sold the property on the South End of Barrington Street to the Superstore which has left us with a gas station and parking lot fronting Cornwallis Park. Hopefully more effort will go into Shannon Park.

Ugh... what pisses me off the most is that the gas station will be there for ages and the area is prime for high density around Cornwallis park.

My hope is that they will eventually build a building in the gap between the train station and the gas station.

[halifaxboyns]

I forgot about the superstore - good point!

I'd like to see the site redeveloped; even if it means removing the gas station. If the city feels it should be something different; they can make it non-conforming and build zoning and policy to get rid of it.

To be honest, I think the space between the station and the gas station could be used for a bus terminal if 'go' like train system from say Truro or the valley were to ever take off. I'd rather see it there, than crammed into the back on Terminal road.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Highrise residential, boardwalk, marina. Interior park, some retail around it. Some towers that look like a fat Stadacona minus the brick would be great.

Bam. Shannon Park.

[halifaxboyns]

Would probably have to be low rise towers near the water with the elevated power line though. So you probably could still have something - just nothing high near the coastline because of vertical clearance.

[Jstaleness]

My #1 vote is also for the Stadium. However I don't see it happening there. In keeping along the story of my Express Bus park and ride departing from somewhere in that area. What about a smaller scale Kings Wharf Style village. Kings Wharf is somewhat selling themselves as a community withing a community with its own food markets and general stores etc.

That same idea would work in Shannon Park. People could ride the express bus to work(if the worked in Halifax) and not need to worry about needing their car because of errands they may have to run after work. All the simple things like food and household supplies would be in that area. Then Sobeys or Superstore would finally have a good reason to build a decent grocery store in the north end. Trinity is still being built up the hill as well so there is even more population to feed.

Anything but what is there now. I think it has been almost 7 years since the bulk of those buildings became vacant. A real shame and a real eyesore for North Dartmouth. If the military has no use for the buildings at least remove the eyesore, place a few benches and picnic tables in there and let people enjoy the beautiful coast line breeze that comes up the narrows.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Google Street view of the site:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Dartmouth,+Halifax+County,+Nova+Scotia&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=27.611305,78.662109&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FVmEqQIdygY2_A&split=0&hq=&hnear=Dartmouth,+Halifax+County,+Nova+Scotia&ll=44.680616,-63.609295&spn=0,0.076818&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=44.680737,-63.609205&panoid=eB7rfv0jNTcSF41W9SShLA&cbp=12,91.56,,0,9.07


The site has an excellent tree cover... I think keeping most of the trees and natural beauty could be a selling point if condos were built.

[Canadian_Bacon]

This is one of my favorite spots for a development. It's a great spot, with lots of land etc. I even have my own design for what I'd do with it.

I'd fill some of the shoreline in to make it more 'even' then put in a boardwalk/ pedestrian walkway along the shoreline. Where you see the 'tip' that extends into the water, I'd put a park there so no buildings would be next to the large power lines. I'd have residential, and commercial and make a small community within the community... Self sufficient like Kings Wharf.

The only thing that ruins the spot are the large power lines, and being so close to the power station. Alot of people would hate these things, so it may be a tougher sell.

But I'd love to see this spot be developed. Of all the places in Halifax/ Dartmouth this is my number 1 spot for something.

[reddog794]

I think it would be ideal for either, expanding BIO, teamed up with one of the three universities, and really start to understand the resources we have splashing against us. Or a mixed development, a mini hillside village approach, with the hope of getting rid of Tufts cove, energy generating station, and a new ferry stop.

[halifaxboyns]

Because we have been having such a big discussion about the stadium; I wanted to come up with a concept of Shannon Park that tried to retain some of the PMQ's, the park but also allowed for new development.

The first thing you will notice is that this drawing is crude; I don't have a good drawing program other than paint - sorry!

So a few things about the plan:
I've softened the edges a bit and proposed fill to create some more land, please don't think that it will be linear it's just the way paint shows it. I've also shown a boardwalk along the edge of the waters edge, with branch points to the stadium (there would be crosswalks to the plaza/park areas on the three points of the stadium). The ferry terminal has a parking lot, which I invission to have a bus bay for additional transit routes and parkade for transit and events.

The stadium also has a parkade (I'm thinking max 4 stories). The red is mixed use (commercial and probably a second level if the market demands it; with residential above and parking underground). The Yellow is low rise multi residential. The orange is high rise residential - all of which (yellow, red and orange) is high density. All parking below ground with access off the main road - which I'm proposing to be 4 lane with landscaped centre and treelined on the sidewalks. I'm assuming there will be a few lighted intersections for accesss to the parkade. There is also a small parkade above the stadium site, 3 stories I'm thinking.

The lighter thinner green roads are more 2 lane residential streets (with some parking space on road side). PMQ's as shown to be retained and upgraded. Trees would be added along the street.

Purple is upgraded commercial which could include a large scale sobeys but could also include some residential.

Now I know as much as people hate the idea of viewplanes, I've included that idea, but through building height versus defined views. In order to better illustrate, I've added to the photo building heights (stories). If the stadium is not taller than 4 to 6 stories, then the heights should be adjusted to that the stadium is an iconic building easily seen from the bridge and from the harbour. All buildings would be built as close to the property line as possible to create a good and active street wall. The buildings could be broken up with parking access, but the parking would be in a sort of courtyard area, but much at Bishop's landing. No parking areas could be allowed (other than the parkades - which would still have much of the street facing area as commerical shops) next to the sidewalk.

I left the park itself mainly as is; because I think the fields and place space are important. There should be enough room for the school to expand if necessary.

The stadium site could encorporate additional parking as necessary and potential anything else, like say an aquarium.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/5016351751_337ae8a2f9.jpg

[halifaxboyns]

Former N.S. base land worth $3.1M: report
Shannon Park closed in 2004
Last Updated: Tuesday, November 2, 2010 | 7:13 AM AT Comments26Recommend12CBC News
The lands of Shannon Park in Dartmouth, N.S., are worth a maximum of $3.1 million, according to a report commissioned by the Department of National Defence and obtained by CBC News.

But there's no word when development could begin on the former military base that's been sitting derelict since 2004.

The report identifies open spaces, proximity to major roads and beautiful harbour views as the main selling points.

"Housing, employment, commercial opportunities," Dartmouth Coun. Jim Smith said. "It would be a great catalyst to changing the whole district, especially in that area."

But the Defence Department must first sell Shannon Park to the Canada Lands Company Ltd., which sells strategic federal properties across the country.

The department hired the real estate firm Altus Group of Halifax to estimate a fair sale price. It found that if a four-hectare parcel of land that hugs the harbour shoreline is developed, it would be worth $600,000.

But the same parcel would be worth only $10,000 if kept as a public park.

No sale in works
The larger 33-hectare upland lot, which includes the former site of military barracks, is worth $2.5 million, the consultant estimated.

The report was completed in February for the Defence Department and obtained by CBC News under the Access to Information Act.

Neither Canada Lands nor the Defence Department could say when a sale will take place.

Smith said the community is tired of waiting for something to happen after six years.

"I'm excited about the future, but I'm disappointed in the past. It wasn't long ago DND was going to divest themselves of this property, and it's been a number of years now, but nothing's happened," he said.

"I just hope that it moves on as fast as it can. We'd like to see DND make a move on this sooner than later, so we can start planning."

The consultants also identified potential drawbacks to development, including traffic noise from the nearby A. Murray MacKay Bridge, high-voltage power lines, and a possible stigma attached to its former use as a military base.

Here is the link to the story (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/11/02/ns-shannon-park-land-value.html).

[Jstaleness]

The consultants also identified potential drawbacks to development, including traffic noise from the nearby A. Murray MacKay Bridge, high-voltage power lines, and a possible stigma attached to its former use as a military base.

Here is the link to the story (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/11/02/ns-shannon-park-land-value.html).

Traffic noise huh? The people of Toronto that paid thousands and sometimes millions of dollars to live along the Gardiner Expressway didn't seem to mind. I doubt they would spend that kind of money if they did. That's also 6 lanes vs 4 lanes and it's busy well into the night. Sorry about the Toronto reference.
As for the power lines. Since we are now looking at running underwater lines from Cape Breton to Newfoundland, wouldn't it be nice to see these cross harbour lines run under the water as well. Sure would be nice to see those ugly rusted towers come down. We need a good ice storm.

[halifaxboyns]

Traffic noise huh? The people of Toronto that paid thousands and sometimes millions of dollars to live along the Gardiner Expressway didn't seem to mind. I doubt they would spend that kind of money if they did. That's also 6 lanes vs 4 lanes and it's busy well into the night. Sorry about the Toronto reference.
As for the power lines. Since we are now looking at running underwater lines from Cape Breton to Newfoundland, wouldn't it be nice to see these cross harbour lines run under the water as well. Sure would be nice to see those ugly rusted towers come down. We need a good ice storm.

Well keep in mind; I didn't write the article so for me I found really far fetched. I completely agree with you; I have some friends who live in one of the buildings you are talking about near the Gardiner and it's loud when you are on the balcony but the momment you close the doors, it's fine. The windows would be an issue, but if my memory serves me their building is air conditioned.

I agree with you; would be nice to see those power lines come down because they would really make the site difficult to redevelop.

[Jstaleness]

To anyone reading the past 2 posts. The way I quoted the article makes it look like I argued something Halifaxboyns wrote. I was arguing the article that he had posted. Just wanted to clear that up.