[Riise]

Competing with Calgary: A tale of two cities
Canada's most dynamic business centre has overtaken Vancouver

Friday, July 25, 2008
Vancouver Sun
Dan Cayo

CALGARY - This city's magnificent strength is splayed out for all to see when you step onto the observation deck of the Calgary Tower - a 40-year-old, 191-metre landmark on the city's skyline. But so is its significant weakness.
Calgary's strength is the small but dense forest of construction cranes and office towers that you see just to your left as you step off the elevator.
These towers are nearly all new, and chock-a-block with workers who, if they aren't one of the bosses in a fancy office, are apt to be shoe-horned two or three to a cubicle. For this is the pulsing heart of the most dynamic business centre in Canada, one that is starting to find an increasing role on the world stage.

The city's weakness? It is, to be fair, perhaps more evident to a visitor from Vancouver than to those who come from any of the more homogenized North American cities. But to my eyes, it's manifest in the flat skyline everywhere you look except for that narrow arc of downtown. For the most part, this is just another sprawling, single-storey city with lots of pleasantly tree-lined streets, but little in the way of eclectic, energized neighbourhoods that create an urban buzz.

Because, when it comes to building a vibrant place in which to work versus one in which to live, Calgary and Vancouver are polar opposites.

In business, we in B.C. can only envy - we sure haven't figured out how to emulate - what the Albertans are doing. To illustrate the scale of the difference, consider that Calgary has 10 million square feet of downtown office space at some stage of construction - half of Canada's total - while Vancouver has none.

But it's vice versa when it comes to creating a livable urban core - something Vancouver excels at, but Calgary has barely begun to recognize as a goal worth tackling.

If either of these cities ever manages to meld the other's strength with its own, holy moly, what a place it will become.

So, I wondered as I strolled the streets and chatted with Calgarians during a recent visit: What's the magic they have that we don't?
When I voiced this question, most residents responded with a where's-your-turnip-truck stare and a single word: Oil.

Well, yes. B.C.'s petroleum patch may be a big deal to us, but Alberta's is much bigger. They've also been exploiting theirs a lot longer and, even before energy prices went stratospheric, it produced billions and billions and billions in both profits and government revenues. Which is handy when you're looking for a big pile of money to invest.

But Calgary's success is based on more than oil. While all 10 of the biggest (by 2006 revenue) companies head-quartered in the city are all in the petroleum business, seven of the next 10 are not. They include Nova, Agrium and Dow in chemicals, ATCO and TransAlta in utilities, Canada Safeway in groceries, and Canadian Pacific in transport.

A little farther down the list you find sizeable companies like Shaw and Corus in media, Fording in mining, WestJet in airlines, Fluor in engineering, Liquidation World in merchandising, Sovereign in insurance, Royal LePage in real estate, and Jim Pattison in leasing. Plus many more in manufacturing, computers, etc. etc.

As a magnet for new head offices, Calgary leads Canada by the proverbial country mile. It's total went from 68 in 2002 to 109 in 2006 - an astonishing 60.3-per-cent increase, almost three times the pace of second-place Edmonton. And the areas of growth were in things like communications and financial services, not just energy.

Vancouver didn't exactly snooze during this period, but we still managed to lose, at least in relative terms. We went from 74 head offices (six more than Calgary) in 2002 to 80 (29 fewer) in 2006. But that's still a much better record than Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal, which all lost ground.
So back to my question: What, besides oil, does Calgary have that Vancouver (and those other Canadian cities) doesn't?
My first instinct was to look at policy differences, and at costs such as taxes. Certainly, Calgary had a long-time advantage in income tax, although B.C. recently undercut it for low- or middle-income earners. And Calgary has caught up to, in some areas surpassed, Vancouver's sky-high real estate and construction costs.

Municipal taxes are hard to compare because they're applied so differently. But on overall tax, utility and maintenance costs for quality space in downtown, Calgary comes out only a little ahead - an average of $15 per square foot per year, versus $16-$17 here.

According to Bruce Graham, CEO of Economic Development Calgary, the more important advantages are more subtle.

The first thing he notes is that Calgarians love to win, and they applaud business successes. This attracts the players who also like to win, and it gives them encouragement to go farther and faster.

Calgary's downtown is very compact, made even closer-knit by a spiderweb of overhead walkways and underground passages that, combined with free transit through eight blocks of the city centre, facilitate networking. As does the city's intense degree of volunteerism and its spirited social scene.

All of which not only feeds upon, but also fuels, the all-important momentum - the pervasive feeling that pretty well anything can be done here, and a good many things will be.

Not to mention the network of support services - some highly technical like engineering and law firms - that sprang up to meet the needs of the first head offices to locate here, and have grown to accommodate those that continue to come.

I have my own theory on how this momentum got started, and why it took root here rather than some other town - specifically, Vancouver.

Several people I talked to, Graham among them, cited former Premier Ralph Klein's laissez-faire capitalism as a big initial draw that appealed to the kind of people who decide where head offices should go.

Klein's basic view was that government's job is to stay out of the way, a philosophy that endeared him to a great many business leaders.

But in addition to the pull of Klein's appeal, there was also a push from us.
Vancouver - logically the main Western competition as a location for a corporate base - carried extra baggage throughout the '90s, the period when Calgary was really building up its head-office head of steam. While they had red-necked Ralph in charge, B.C. had its succession of pinko premiers - Mike, Dan, Glen and Ujjal - none of whom ever quite cut it with the business crowd.
But if Ralph Klein's open-for-business attitude helped to build the corporate presence in Calgary, his legacy isn't universally seen as an asset in keeping it.
Graham notes gloomily that this legacy includes things like truncated social services, which after years of little attention from the provincial government are sorely strained to cope with the influx of new Calgarians.

Todd Hirsch, formerly a senior analyst with the Calgary-based Canada West Foundation and now senior economist at ATB Financial, goes further in condemning what he sees as the neglect of some key sectors during the Klein years.

"They didn't plan for and invest in future requirements," he said, citing everything from the over-crowded and under-equipped C-Train network that brings commuters to the city centre, to facilities for the arts. And those chickens, he says, are coming home to roost.

"We're not competing any more with Medicine Hat and Lethbridge," he says, cutting to the chase on what almost everyone agrees is Calgary's biggest problem - an acute skills shortage not only in areas like construction, where many migrants can do the job, but in arcane specialties and professions.
"We're competing with places like Barcelona, and other world cities. And we can't do it with just a rodeo and good fly fishing."

Hirsch acknowledges that the new premier, Ed Stelmach, is putting more resources than Klein ever did into the kinds of things that make a city livable, if not great. And the city has a fledgling high-density, pedestrian-friendly neighbourhood, the Beltline, developing just south of downtown, complete with a trendy neighbourhood shopping district on 17th Ave. This former warehouse district already has a solid base of condos, and up to 8,000 more units are planned, some with approvals in place and others not much more than a gleam in a developer's eye.

But Hirsch still thinks Calgary in general - not just the provincial government - tries to do amenities on the cheap.

A case in point, he says, may be the 58-storey HQ that EnCana has a-building. It is to be the largest structure in Western Canada, it's height dwarfing even the iconic Calgary Tower, although it's still just a two-city-block hole in the ground.

The plan for the building is a striking design that has won accolades, and everyone else in Calgary seems eager to show it off to me. But Hirsch says penny-pinching is whittling down its potential grandeur, with economies such as cutting back on a soaring atrium in order to squeeze in more office space.
"So what was supposed to be a remarkable building is now going to be a tall building.

"And that's sort of the story of Calgary. We're like a gawky teenager making some bad choices. ... And we're not building for the next 100 years."
Maybe so. But, whether lofty or prosaic, Calgary is building. Lots of stuff. Fast.

dcayo@vancouversun.com
Visit Don Cayo's blog at www.vancouversun.com/blogs


CALGARY
Head offices
2002: 68
2007: 109
+60.3%

Head office employment
2002: 16,167
2007: 20,175
+24.8%

VANCOUVER
Head offices
2002: 74
2007: 80
+8.1%

Head office employment
2002: 14,515
2007: 17,852
+23.0%

© Vancouver Sun 2008 (http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/business/story.html?id=f8493aaa-3bd3-4da5-9830-71154fe4aca5)


-------------------

So, what does everybody reckon? Personally, I think he is onto something very important here. It closely relates to what will probably be my master's thesis, planning cities as spaces for people and their places. I'll start tackling the issue of the need for more socially sustainable urban planning from a transportation angle, moving away from the emphasis on how to move people between their places using the private-automobile (i.e. increasing traffic flows) in planning. However, in his article Cayo tackles it from an angle that questions the emphasis in urban planning that we are placing on the economy in sustainability. With the help of Mr. Hirsch, an economics instructor at the U of C no less, he reminds Calgary that sustainability includes social elements/factors and responsibilities.

A comparison that I usually make with Europe and North American is fitting for a discussion involving Calgary and Vancouver. In Calgary we plan for a local lifestyle where people "live to work", while in Vancouver they plan for a local lifestyle where people "work towards living".

Btw, props to Hirsch for bringing the Bow into this article. He is truly one of the coolest instructors at the U.

[Calgarian]

Great article, the author touches on a lot of the negatives of Calgary, but doesn't dwell on them like the eastern media seems to only do when they do a piece on Calgary. The Calgary Vancouver comparison is well grounded, and I especiall liked the part where he says "If either of these cities ever manages to meld the other's strength with its own, holy moly, what a place it will become" which I think is absolutely true.

[Bigtime]

At first I was quite worried about the tone of the article. I was very relieved to see the author took some time to realize what we are doing right, particularly by mentioning the Beltline and the heavy urbanization occuring there.

The part about the potential of The Bow being whittled away somewhat by the changes was very good. More people may hear about it and the next time we have a chance to keep a structure built in its original state we may see it actually come to fruition.

^^^ You put it into words better than me Johnnyc. He balanced comments like "red necked Ralph" with "pinko premiers" for what they were dealing with! That balance is definitely something we haven't seen in the majority of articles about our city, it is really quite refreshing and mature to see.

[Riise]

You're bang on Johhny, it's not bashing but rather constructive criticism tempered with the admittance of flaws in his city. The comment about the combining what both cities are doing correct was also some interesting food for thought.

[wild wild west]

Very interesting and balanced article. And I note with great pleasure that they applied the "most dynamic" label to us.

[Jimby]

Interesting article, but it doesn't say anything new. The head office employment numbers are not so different between Calgary and Vancouver, but I would think the downtown total employment numbers would be very different between the 2 cities - doesn't Calgary have something like 110,000 people employed downtown?
Vancouver is building a downtown catering to the cruise ship industry which means there will be lots of jobs for service people in the new Shangri-la for example, whereas the office buildings going up in downtown Calgary will employ higher paid, better educated, and more skilled workers than a hotel would which will generate much more economic spin-offs for the local economy.
Also Novachem moved their head office to Pittsburgh years ago.
Corus is really based in Toronto, and Liquidation World moved their head office to Ontario.

[Wooster]

But it's vice versa when it comes to creating a livable urban core - something Vancouver excels at, but Calgary has barely begun to recognize as a goal worth tackling.

This quote was something that really didn't resonate. Although the fruits of current labour going on to try and create a liveable urban core are only just emerging, there is definitely not a lack of a 'goal' to make that happen.

I think the article would better be served by outlining the efforts that are happening to try and right this wrong. They touch on condos in the Beltline briefly, but really there is a lot more than that going on to competely remake Calgary's centre. They could have even interviewed their (vancouver's) current head of planning Brent Toderian, who before his current job, was the head of Centre City Planning in Calgary to find out what is really going on.

In addition to crazy construction, initiatives like the Centre City Plan, Stampede Expansions, parks renovations, Railtown, Eau Claire projects (market, Anthem, Concord), Riverwalk, Bow River bridges, East Village, 7th ave rejuvination, the public art initiatives etc are current efforts that are going to make a huge, huge difference in 5-10 years. In addition to those, future initiatives we know about like a new central library, a possible glenbow art gallery, urban campus will further add to livability. There's also a lot of effort outside the core too, including major TOD initiatives, LRT expansion that will also change the perception of the city.

I understand the angle of the article though. A lot of these things are not evident yet, or are early in their development. I suspect in 5-10 years, once all these thing are much more complete or underway, articles will be coming out that do say how well Calgary has achieved urban livability and become a major business centre. I do think Calgary has to become more aggressive with investment into improving the public realm (refurbishing streetscapes like 8th street, 11th and 12th aves etc) and increase investment in cultural infrastructure.

Indeed, "holy moly, what a place it will become"

[Calgarian]

^Maybe you should write the author.

[freeweed]

Wow, if we can manage to keep this civil, and not turn into a vs thread, kudos all around.

In Calgary we plan for a local lifestyle where people "live to work", while in Vancouver they plan for a local lifestyle where people "work towards living".

While I'm sure we all know a workaholic or six in Calgary, I'm not so sure this is entirely accurate overall. Most folks I know "work towards living" - the difference is, our "living" does not consist of the usual things that urbanists tout as being important.

Calgary is chock full of people who spend a tremendous amount of time away from work - just not necessarily in the city. Witness the insanity that the mountain parks have become in the past few years.

I'm no slave to my desk, and just because I don't go to the local bars/theatres/random street merchant does not say otherwise. I just spend my time and money on other, non-urban things.

That being said, when I occasionally AM in the mood for the urban experience, I won't argue that Calgary often lacks. The difference in downtown nightlife between an average weekend, and this past (as the folk festival let out) is amazing.

[240glt]

This is the article in a nutshell

In business, we in B.C. can only envy - we sure haven't figured out how to emulate - what the Albertans are doing. To illustrate the scale of the difference, consider that Calgary has 10 million square feet of downtown office space at some stage of construction - half of Canada's total - while Vancouver has none.

But it's vice versa when it comes to creating a livable urban core - something Vancouver excels at, but Calgary has barely begun to recognize as a goal worth tackling

Of course this is hardly news.

[Riise]

While I'm sure we all know a workaholic or six in Calgary, I'm not so sure this is entirely accurate overall. Most folks I know "work towards living" - the difference is, our "living" does not consist of the usual things that urbanists tout as being important.

Calgary is chock full of people who spend a tremendous amount of time away from work - just not necessarily in the city. Witness the insanity that the mountain parks have become in the past few years.

I'm no slave to my desk, and just because I don't go to the local bars/theatres/random street merchant does not say otherwise. I just spend my time and money on other, non-urban things.

Actually, I'm pretty confident that the majority of Calgarians are indeed living to work. If they were intent on working towards living they would require different urban environments; even if they were to participate in non-cosmopolitan urban, and even regional, activities. Our mountain parks are usually buzzing with locals but that's usually only on the weekends. One of the things that I noticed last month during my trip to Europe was that in those cities as many people were in the parks and playgrounds during the week as on the weekends. If there was a difference it would be that during the week the parks, playgrounds, and pedestrian streets would be near full or at least busy and on the weekends they would be crowded/full.

It is not that Calgarians are not hitting the clubs en masse but they do not seem to be engaging in non-cosmopolitan activities (eg. going to local parks or playgrounds with their children), or even those typical cosmopolitan urban activities (eg. clubbing) during the week. Why? Probably because they are chained to their desk.

[Tarsus]

Yeah, no kidding. If Calgary and Vancouver ever melded into one city, what a place that would be.

Great article, the author touches on a lot of the negatives of Calgary, but doesn't dwell on them like the eastern media seems to only do when they do a piece on Calgary. The Calgary Vancouver comparison is well grounded, and I especiall liked the part where he says "If either of these cities ever manages to meld the other's strength with its own, holy moly, what a place it will become" which I think is absolutely true.

For the most part the article is bang on. I disagree somewhat about Calgary not having a goal for a livable urban core. We aren't where we want to be, but we are definitely working on it. Calgary's core is already showing signs of greatness, and we've still got more coming.

[Tarsus]

It is not that Calgarians are not hitting the clubs en masse but they do not seem to be engaging in non-cosmopolitan activities (eg. going to local parks or playgrounds with their children), or even those typical cosmopolitan urban activities (eg. clubbing) during the week. Why? Probably because they are chained to their desk.

I'm not sure it's much different in Vancouver. Places like Surrey and New West, Richmond etc, are not that much different than the Calgary suburbs.

[freeweed]

It is not that Calgarians are not hitting the clubs en masse but they do not seem to be engaging in non-cosmopolitan activities (eg. going to local parks or playgrounds with their children), or even those typical cosmopolitan urban activities (eg. clubbing) during the week. Why? Probably because they are chained to their desk.

Let's chalk this one up to a difference of opinion over what "living" constitutes, and leave it at that. Most white collar folks (and, for that matter, blue, which can just as easily become workaholics) that I know work a 40 hour week, period.

You may not be aware of what they're doing outside of those hours, but it ain't work.

You might have a good argument that Calgarians are a bit more anti-social than in some cities, as much of this time involves TV/Internet/movies/shopping/personal hobbies - but it certainly isn't work. People working much over 40 hours a week here are by far the exception, except maybe the schlubs in Banker's Hall.

Not clubbing on a Wednesday night != chained to a desk. It's more of a realization that some lifestyles aren't sustainable once you get old or uncool enough. That, and actually making it to work on time every day is important. If that's "chained to my desk", then I'm guilty as charged.

Edit: actually, I'd suggest that plenty of people in this city are "chained to their children". Far too many young couples are spending every waking hour (outside of work) constantly shuttling their children around to various things. No one seems to be able to just relax and enjoy life anymore; we always have to be "doing something meaningful with our time" - and we happily project this onto our children.

[wild wild west]

I work a 35-hour week, and indeed most others I know work 35-40 hrs./week. I don't go clubbing on week nights because I got the hung-over-at-work thing out of my system in my 20's, and I have a young family. I still find time for camping and hiking, as well as more urban pursuits like going to the gym, movies, going out for dinner, having a drink after work with friends, etc. I don't find my life here all that dramatically different than that of friends and relatives who live in other cities, be they bigger or smaller ones.

[Bigtime]

You guys are making me jealous, I'm averaging a 55 hour work week.

[Calgarian]

I work just under 40 hours a week (except when I have a deadline on a project) and that is at a very busy Architectural firm. After work, I usually go to a pub for some beers and a bite to eat. On weekends I like to go down to Prince's Island and throw a football around with friends. If that is different than what a 25 year old in Vancouver does, I would be interested to hear how.

[freeweed]

You guys are making me jealous, I'm averaging a 55 hour work week.

Yikes. I hope you get compensated for that (hourly pay, time off in lieu, something). Even in pro-corporate Alberta, free overtime is against the law for most workers.

I have a buddy who works his arse off all summer. 10-12-15(!) hour days, 6-7 days a week, for 5 months. He then spends the other 7 goofing off, with at least 4-5 months in exotic locations, partying it up. Yeah, he's a workaholic during the summer. Not exactly what I'd call "living to work" by any means, however. I think he's been to downtown Calgary once.

[freeweed]

If that is different than what a 25 year old in Vancouver does, I would be interested to hear how.

I'll say one thing about Vancouverites - a TON of them hang out in the park/beach type areas that surround the downtown core. All week long. Usually just sitting there reading a book, but I guess it counts as "going out". Calgary doesn't have as much of this although the jogging paths down memorial are usually pretty busy most evenings. Calgary also has winter which makes this sort of activity impractical for 2-4 months anyway.

[Bigtime]

Yikes. I hope you get compensated for that (hourly pay, time off in lieu, something). Even in pro-corporate Alberta, free overtime is against the law for most workers.

I am compensated, but the hours are just the nature of my job and position. Any of our employees that are putting in overtime are paid for it as well.

[Calgarian]

I'll say one thing about Vancouverites - a TON of them hang out in the park/beach type areas that surround the downtown core. All week long. Usually just sitting there reading a book, but I guess it counts as "going out". Calgary doesn't have as much of this although the jogging paths down memorial are usually pretty busy most evenings. Calgary also has winter which makes this sort of activity impractical for 2-4 months anyway.

Our winters usually have enough warm days that there are still tons of people biking and running through the numerous parks and trails.

[Riise]

I'm not sure it's much different in Vancouver. Places like Surrey and New West, Richmond etc, are not that much different than the Calgary suburbs.

Most definitely, but when I talk about Vancouver I'm usually only talking about the City of Vancouver.


Edit: actually, I'd suggest that plenty of people in this city are "chained to their children". Far too many young couples are spending every waking hour (outside of work) constantly shuttling their children around to various things. No one seems to be able to just relax and enjoy life anymore; we always have to be "doing something meaningful with our time" - and we happily project this onto our children.

I'm glad that you mentioned this because I can reiterate what I had initially said, which was:

In Calgary we plan for a local lifestyle where people "live to work", while in Vancouver they plan for a local lifestyle where people "work towards living".

I believe that Calgarians and Vancouverites probably have similar lifestyles as they are both North American cities where the live to work lifestyle is very prevalent. What I also believe is that Vancouver (see above definition) has been planned and subsequently developed following the principles found in a work towards living lifestyle and is more conducive to people who live such a lifestyle, while Calgary, for the most part, has not. To provide you with an example, my sister's friend from Finland was recently in Calgary visiting us and she told us about her sister's upcoming housing relocation.

Her sister was living in a typical North American suburban community but as her children were moving out of their toddler stage of life she wanted to move closer to the city in a more compact community where they wouldn't have to drive as much. Her reasoning was that she did not want to have to come home from work and get right back into the car to drive her children around to their increasing amount of non-school activities (i.e. choir, football, hockey, and piano). That is the lifestyle that the majority of our suburban communities have to offer their residents and is the result of the type of planning that we have adopted.

So in short, Calgary has been, and hopefully won't continue to be, planned in such a way that is only conducive to the typical consumer-driven North American live to work lifestyle.

[lubicon]

Let's chalk this one up to a difference of opinion over what "living" constitutes, and leave it at that. Most white collar folks (and, for that matter, blue, which can just as easily become workaholics) that I know work a 40 hour week, period.

You may not be aware of what they're doing outside of those hours, but it ain't work.

You might have a good argument that Calgarians are a bit more anti-social than in some cities, as much of this time involves TV/Internet/movies/shopping/personal hobbies - but it certainly isn't work. People working much over 40 hours a week here are by far the exception, except maybe the schlubs in Banker's Hall.

Not clubbing on a Wednesday night != chained to a desk. It's more of a realization that some lifestyles aren't sustainable once you get old or uncool enough. That, and actually making it to work on time every day is important. If that's "chained to my desk", then I'm guilty as charged.

Edit: actually, I'd suggest that plenty of people in this city are "chained to their children". Far too many young couples are spending every waking hour (outside of work) constantly shuttling their children around to various things. No one seems to be able to just relax and enjoy life anymore; we always have to be "doing something meaningful with our time" - and we happily project this onto our children.

You hit the nail on the head with this one. Having 2 youngins of my own I can attest to some of the craziness that I see other parents subjecting themselves (and their kids) to. There seems to be a mentality that if you don't have your kid signed up in 5 different programs of some sort then you are somehow cheating them. I sometimes wonder if we are the only ones who haven't got their kids in 3 different camps over the summer, then hockey, gymnastics, swimming, soccer, basketball, violin etc over the winter. Am I being cruel by having them only in hockey in the winter and then maybe one o2 2 things in the summer? What ever happened to letting kids be kids and letting them have some sun on their own instead of planning every minute of their lives?


I too work a 40 hour week (on paper). Some weeks it's less if we are slow, sometimes it's a lot more if we are busy. When we are busy the work has to be done RIGHT NOW, not tomorrow as it's too late by then so my days can get quite long. There's no compensation for overtime, at least not officially, although I can usually take time off informally at a later date.

In my previous life (in the field) it was 24/7. My personal record was 38 days straight working 24 hours a day with only an hour here and there to grap a quick nap and maybe scarf down something to eat.

[Boris2k7]

On the whole, yes, a well balanced article.

However, I think that the article is a little too slanted towards the "bringing business to Vancouver" issue, and explaining why Calgary has done well. On the urbanism issue, we get to see the reasons on the Calgary end that we might not be doing so well, but we don't get any lessons from Vancouver that could be applied here. That's a major element that is missing in this story.

[Champion3]

You hit the nail on the head with this one. Having 2 youngins of my own I can attest to some of the craziness that I see other parents subjecting themselves (and their kids) to. There seems to be a mentality that if you don't have your kid signed up in 5 different programs of some sort then you are somehow cheating them. I sometimes wonder if we are the only ones who haven't got their kids in 3 different camps over the summer, then hockey, gymnastics, swimming, soccer, basketball, violin etc over the winter. Am I being cruel by having them only in hockey in the winter and then maybe one o2 2 things in the summer? What ever happened to letting kids be kids and letting them have some sun on their own instead of planning every minute of their lives?
You're doing the right thing. I grew up in an environment like that; if I wanted to quit a particular activity, I was expected to find something else to sign up for. For a couple of years I had 3 or 4 extracurricular activities going per week, in addition to school work and a laundry list of chores and activities that I was expected to do. I craved nothing more than to just be able to sit back once in a while and have the freedom to do whatever I wanted.

[Rusty van Reddick]

I'm assuming this was cut and pasted - if so, this (professional) journalist really doesn't know how to spell the word "its"?

[CMD UW]

I work a 35-hour week, and indeed most others I know work 35-40 hrs./week. I don't go clubbing on week nights because I got the hung-over-at-work thing out of my system in my 20's, and I have a young family. I still find time for camping and hiking, as well as more urban pursuits like going to the gym, movies, going out for dinner, having a drink after work with friends, etc. I don't find my life here all that dramatically different than that of friends and relatives who live in other cities, be they bigger or smaller ones.
I work bet'n 40-45hrs/week, hang out with friends and colleagues for afterwork drinks, which sometimes leads to a 's-l-o-w' morning the next day, hit the gym in the morning a few times during the week, and hang out around town during the weekends...all this at 30-years-old. No time for a wife right now, nevermind kids. The gf is plenty right now.

Oh, and I think the article was good, there are some points that I would context / debate, but overall, it made sense.

[IntotheWest]

I'm assuming this was cut and pasted - if so, this (professional) journalist really doesn't know how to spell the word "its"?

I'm glad you point these out Furry...I'm sure I need the reminder myself sometimes on proper grammar. I usually have to think twice about the "its versus it's" issue myself :)

Good article Riise, thanks for posting. I've heard enough Vancouverites opinions of Calgary to last a lifetime, though I wish the writer did a little more digging before sharing his thoughts with more Vancouverites.

Also - I know this comes up in a lot of threads, but I personally find it tough to separate the "City of Vancouver" from GVRD. I found a lot of their issues (GVRD) were because the cities all acted separately, yet make up 75% of the GVRD population. For example, I find it odd the writer points out the under-equipped C-Train, but makes no mention that a city twice the size only matches the ridership numbers, and number of stations. The City of Vancouver is a great place to live (if you have millions, or like condo towers), but it truly only represents a quarter of the "city" (metro). Surrey, Burnaby, and Richmond are just as bad - if not worse in some cases - than the shape Calgary is currently in (in the urban sense, that is).

As for your comments about the need to change planning/policies, and building "compact communities"...gas prices and the economic gloom in the US has really forced many people to consider giving up the suburban dream south of us, and this has appeared in many articles as of late. The crash of house prices in suburbia, while more "compact" and urban areas are holding their values continues in many US cities. It has also forced developers in some places to re-think how to build better neighbourhoods - I believe there was an article just the other day in the Herald discussing changes in Stapleton, Colorado to re-invent itself to keep and attract new residents. I don't imagine Canadian cities like Calgary will be far behind. Bedroom communities will also be forced to change. Even with cheaper/alternative autos of the future, I think there is a collective shift happening right now in how people want to spend their time/lives. This isn't a Calgary thing or a Vancouver thing. Vancouver is just in some areas (i.e. downtown) more appealing. As is obvious to any forumer on here, Calgary will be closer to that ideal in 5-10 years.

Freeweed - I believe I've heard/read that Calgarians work on average the second longest hours (or longest) in Canada. Actually, I recall the subject being discussed on a talk radio station in a Vancouver cab...Vancouverites worked the least amount (something like 42 hours versus 52 hours a week). Most Vancouverites thought it was simply because it was too cold here 6 or 8 months out of the year, that there is nothing else to do ;) Seriously though, I believe this is available on statscan.ca is it not?

[freeweed]

Freeweed - I believe I've heard/read that Calgarians work on average the second longest hours (or longest) in Canada. Actually, I recall the subject being discussed on a talk radio station in a Vancouver cab...Vancouverites worked the least amount (something like 42 hours versus 52 hours a week). Most Vancouverites thought it was simply because it was too cold here 6 or 8 months out of the year, that there is nothing else to do ;) Seriously though, I believe this is available on statscan.ca is it not?

You're absolutely correct, statistically we work longer hours than anyone else in the country. I can't remember the exact numbers but it was within the past 12 months that another of these reports came out. I'm pretty sure the spread between CGY and VAN was nowhere near as drastic, and Montreal in fact had the shortest average work week. I can't find any reference to it either; my google-fu is fading.

If I remember correctly, over the year the average Calgarian works maybe 10-15% more than the average Montrealer. Yes, statistically noticeable. I still contest the assertion that Calgarians are, overall, "chained to our desks". I think it's a ridiculous stereotype. The only way people here are slaves to work is the fact that for the most part, people here wouldn't be caught dead on welfare/UI here. The oldschool work ethic is still strong in this city, even with all the recent arrivals from around the country.

[Greco Roman]

I've heard enough Vancouverites opinions of Calgary to last a lifetime

I feel the same way about Calgarians opinions on Edmonton and Winnipeg.

[Me&You]

I feel the same way about Calgarians opinions on Edmonton and Winnipeg.

Why are you here? :sly:

[Danma]

I'm actually in Vancouver on vacation right now, so this is interesting.

I'm not totally sold on the argument that Calgarians are necessarily chained to their desks -- although many are! I think the difference (if we're going to compare) is that the development of desirable public spaces in Calgary is still not nearly as well developed as they are in Vancouver. Some of it has to do with geography (as I'd argue that you can't buy awesomeness like Stanley Park) but in general, apart from Prince's Island, are there any parks or recreational areas anywhere near the core you'd want to go to, just to hang around? In comparison, Vancouver is tripping over itself with parks and great public spaces.

After visiting family in Coquitlam I can verify that living in the suburbs is about the same here as in Calgary. More hills and trees but in essence pretty similar.

As far as the article's concerned, it's nice to see pieces written about Calgary that don't paint us as a bunch of cultureless yodel wallowing in oil.

[Coldrsx]

I think in general Vancouver has a more relaxed lifestyle approach and one that doesnt necessarily focus on the lack of "office" in its area. Vancouver has done very well creating an urban playground for some and a massive retail/tourist draw for others.

My lifestyle in vancouver was not much different than here or if i were to live in any major city.

35-45hrs a week at work
drinks and food a few days a week in the evening
out once a weekend night
strolling around daytime on weekends exploring


I think we all get far too caught up in city vs city because at the end of the day it doesnt matter if you are Kenny or Spenny, you can decide how your lifestyle/city/et al. is and acts.

[Calgarian]

I feel the same way about Calgarians opinions on Edmonton and Winnipeg.

Thanks for trolling.

[Calgarian]

I think in general Vancouver has a more relaxed lifestyle approach and one that doesnt necessarily focus on the lack of "office" in its area. Vancouver has done very well creating an urban playground for some and a massive retail/tourist draw for others.

My lifestyle in vancouver was not much different than here or if i were to live in any major city.

35-45hrs a week at work
drinks and food a few days a week in the evening
out once a weekend night
strolling around daytime on weekends exploring


I think we all get far too caught up in city vs city because at the end of the day it doesnt matter if you are Kenny or Spenny, you can decide how your lifestyle/city/et al. is and acts.


I think that's pretty accurate.

[bigcanuck]

You're absolutely correct, statistically we work longer hours than anyone else in the country. I can't remember the exact numbers but it was within the past 12 months that another of these reports came out. I'm pretty sure the spread between CGY and VAN was nowhere near as drastic, and Montreal in fact had the shortest average work week. I can't find any reference to it either; my google-fu is fading.

If I remember correctly, over the year the average Calgarian works maybe 10-15% more than the average Montrealer. Yes, statistically noticeable. I still contest the assertion that Calgarians are, overall, "chained to our desks". I think it's a ridiculous stereotype. The only way people here are slaves to work is the fact that for the most part, people here wouldn't be caught dead on welfare/UI here. The oldschool work ethic is still strong in this city, even with all the recent arrivals from around the country.

I would also suggest that a major contributor to the longer hours worked in Calgary vs. Montreal is simply the time zone difference. Calgary's economy is largely influenced by the markets (both commodity and financial) which open at 7:30am Calgary time. This pushes the starting time for many Calgarians to between 6-7:00am. Of course, we could leave at anytime after 2:00pm once the markets are closed but it's not seen in practice - many still remain around until 4-5:00pm (or if you're fortunate/unfortunate enough to be in iBanking, likely 6pm).

Montreal of course will see the markets open at 9:30am - the tendency to remain around past market close for 3-4 hours may not be nearly as prevelant.

[Calgarian]

I would say longer hours in Calgary can be largely attributed to the huge labour shortage.

[CMD UW]

That is also true...staffing shortages and high volume of work = longer hours.

[freeweed]

I would also suggest that a major contributor to the longer hours worked in Calgary vs. Montreal is simply the time zone difference. Calgary's economy is largely influenced by the markets (both commodity and financial) which open at 7:30am Calgary time. This pushes the starting time for many Calgarians to between 6-7:00am. Of course, we could leave at anytime after 2:00pm once the markets are closed but it's not seen in practice - many still remain around until 4-5:00pm (or if you're fortunate/unfortunate enough to be in iBanking, likely 6pm).

That's a very good point. Folks I know in some other cities are astounded that I get to work before 7:30 - which when you add in a 'burbs commute, means I leave the house not much past 6:30. They naturally assume I work until 5, so they figure I have this insanely long working day. Of course, I typically leave around 4, so it averages out. I know hardly anyone who works "9-5" in Calgary, but many who work 7-4, or 6-3 (or heck, 10-7).

The other thing I've noticed is that Calgary (at least downtown and most other office type jobs) is a 9 hour workday - no exceptions. 8 hours work with an hour unpaid lunch. Many other cities are more typically an 8 hour day, including lunch, so our workday seems longer. Obviously not every place and person fits this pattern but it's a definite trend.

Those 2 factors alone give a perception that Calgarians work a lot more. Most people I know in (for example) Winnipeg don't even leave their houses before 8am, so they figure I must be working like crazy.

Calgary is also still seen as a small city (like the Winnipegs and Reginas and Hamiltons) but our commutes are rapidly approaching Toronto times - this just makes the day seem that much longer for people who still think of Calgary as a "small city". In my life I've always had a 30-45 minute commute to school or work, so it seems the same to me - but many friends (including the SO) have taken quite a long time to adjust. Waking up at 5am? Blasphemy! :haha:

[240glt]

I'd wager though that Vanocuverites in general have longer commutes... When I lived in Van, my 10k drive took me 40 minutes on a good day. In Calgary, my drive from DT to right around blackfoot & 58th took me less than 15. My commute in Edmonton takes me less than 15 as well.

I know Vancouverites that drive over an hour each way for work.. either from up the valley or White Rock into the city. Traffic in Cal is bad no doubt, but it's still much easier to get aorund than Van.

Funny, I was on the seawall & down Robson st from 11-2 yesterday & the people out jogging & shopping & coffee shop sitting made it hard to believe that anyone was working!

[Bigtime]

I may not work downtown but living in the Beltline gives me a distinct advantage in getting to and from work much quicker than most.

My average day in a nutshell:

-Up at 6:15am
-Leave home around 6:45am (earlier if I bike commute, which I need to do more of!)
-Arrive at work 6:55-7:00am
-Work until 5:15-5:45pm
-Home on average around 5:50pm

Not too bad once you get used to it, lunches are usually at my desk while working on paperwork/email catchup.

[bigcanuck]

Not too bad once you get used to it, lunches are usually at my desk while working on paperwork/email catchup.

Or SSP'ing...

[Me&You]

I'd wager though that Vanocuverites in general have longer commutes... When I lived in Van, my 10k drive took me 40 minutes on a good day. In Calgary, my drive from DT to right around blackfoot & 58th took me less than 15. My commute in Edmonton takes me less than 15 as well.

I know Vancouverites that drive over an hour each way for work.. either from up the valley or White Rock into the city. Traffic in Cal is bad no doubt, but it's still much easier to get aorund than Van.

Funny, I was on the seawall & down Robson st from 11-2 yesterday & the people out jogging & shopping & coffee shop sitting made it hard to believe that anyone was working!

But that commute in Calgary can't be more than 4km and you're going against traffic...

[IntotheWest]

^I "lived" briefly in Burnaby, briefly in Richmond, and a longer stint in downtown Van (and commuting to either Burnaby or central Van)...though the traffic seems to move slower, I actually didn't find it any worse than most of Calgary's traffic...I think GVRD has done an excellent job at resisting interchanges and freeways, while still getting traffic flowing. After sitting on Hwy 97 in Kelowna (again) last week, I can say they have the worst traffic :)

I have heard getting to Surrey is much worse, and my brother and his family lived in New West - and that definitely added time.

In non-rush hour, I can make it to downtown from my driveway in Okotoks in 35 minutes (around 9:30am)....nearly an hour in rush hour traffic. And, I would have no right to complain anyway ;)

As for the comment made about parks in Van vs Calgary, I would argue that outside of Stanley Park, Calgary's are just as plentiful outside of its core as well - at the very least. I guess it partly depends on what kind of recreation you're trying to look for...strolling on a beach isn't going to happen.

Freeweed - I agree with your comments of being "chained to a desk" as overblown.

[IntotheWest]

I feel the same way about Calgarians opinions on Edmonton and Winnipeg.

The difference being I don't jump on Vancouver forumers, or poke them in the eye for everything they say...and most importantly, I do very much understand, appreciate, and even praise, the good things about Van and BC.

I firmly believe that most Calgary forumers on here feel the same towards Edmonton and Winnipeg as well.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Has Greco ever said a single thing even remotely positive about Calgary? Even once? And not a backhanded compliment?

Anyway- I've been in thrall of folks on the seawall many times but I have enough perspective to understand that (1) many, maybe most, of the people on the seawall are tourists; (2) many of the locals are on the seawall are retired, unemployed, or on permanent disability; (3) there are many hundreds of thousands of people in the GVRD who are struggling in shitholes in Surrey and East Van to make enough money to support themselves and keep their families off the street that they never, for all intents and purposes, make it to the seawall and sip lattes in Kits.

I know plenty of people in Calgary who aren't chained to their desks and who have rich social and cultural lives and who make great use of the beautiful natural setting here. I am sure that there are many, many people in Vancouver who ARE chained to their desks or chained to menial jobs because it is so fucking expensive to live there. Right this second we have a houseguest who's a friend from Van who came here (to Calgary) for the Folk Fest and who stayed on because he's in Calgary every week for work (Mon-Tues) for the next few months. He works his ass off, so much so his doctor warned him about the effect it's having on his health. He had to come to Calgary to relax. Imagine that.

[jeffwhit]

Not too bad once you get used to it, lunches are usually at my desk while working on paperwork/email catchup.Or SSP'ing...
Or romantic walks to a hole in the ground.

[Stephen Ave]

Nope. Greco has a huge hate on for Calgary....envy turned outwards, is the best way to describe it.

Has Greco ever said a single thing even remotely positive about Calgary? Even once? And not a backhanded compliment?

[Calgarian]

Nope. Greco has a huge hate on for Calgary....envy turned outwards, is the best way to describe it.

Inferiority complex maybe. :rolleyes:

[Greco Roman]

Inferiority complex maybe. :rolleyes:

No, personal experience actually, not necessarily from forumers here, but from people in person in Calgary when I lived there last year.

And the only people who think I have an inferiority complex are you guys, but thankfully I couldn't give a rat's ass about what you think.

Anyways, continue with your discussion

Peace :)

[CMD UW]

Ok, that's enough...get back to the topic.

[Coldrsx]

for a little perspective...when i lived in Vancouver 02-03 i drove from UBC (16th/westbrook mall) to brentwood (lougheed/gilmore) and it was roughly 10-12km stop and go 2 lane traffic but flowed so well it only took 25-35min.

[entheosfog]

I'd wager though that Vanocuverites in general have longer commutes... When I lived in Van, my 10k drive took me 40 minutes on a good day. In Calgary, my drive from DT to right around blackfoot & 58th took me less than 15. My commute in Edmonton takes me less than 15 as well.

I know Vancouverites that drive over an hour each way for work.. either from up the valley or White Rock into the city. Traffic in Cal is bad no doubt, but it's still much easier to get aorund than Van.

Funny, I was on the seawall & down Robson st from 11-2 yesterday & the people out jogging & shopping & coffee shop sitting made it hard to believe that anyone was working!

Or some of us simply just walk to work ;)
But yeah, some of my co-workers commute from Surrey and PoCo. That would drive me nuts.
Traffic in certain areas of Metro Van is really bad, mostly at the bridges (Lions Gate, Port Man etc) but traffic lights are generally shorter and there's fewer turn arrows, so traffic is usually at least moving. The thing is though, volume in the busy areas seems steady all the time, even on Sunday nights, something that differs from Calgary.

[entheosfog]

As for the comment made about parks in Van vs Calgary, I would argue that outside of Stanley Park, Calgary's are just as plentiful outside of its core as well - at the very least. I guess it partly depends on what kind of recreation you're trying to look for...strolling on a beach isn't going to happen.


The downtown area in Van could do with some more green space, definitely.

[IntotheWest]

The downtown area in Van could do with some more green space, definitely.

Sorry, I was referring to the other GVRD cities. I guess the argument could be made for more "green space" in downtown, but personally, I think Vancouver has some excellent public and "green" spaces - even if it isn't a traditional park. I was also kinda meaning that Stanley Park is accessible from pretty much anywhere on the downtown pennisula.

But, Calgary is not different. We used to go for bike rides just east of the zoo from our home in the Beltline - lots of parks and paths once you cross downtown.

For little kiddies though, the downtown parks kinda suck...or did several years ago.

[davee930]

No, personal experience actually, not necessarily from forumers here, but from people in person in Calgary when I lived there last year.

And the only people who think I have an inferiority complex are you guys, but thankfully I couldn't give a rat's ass about what you think.

Anyways, continue with your discussion

Peace :)

A few people you met don't represent an entire city. If people on this forum aren't the cause of your hate and sorrow then why bring it up every chance you get?

Thank God for the internet so you can say things you wouldn't say in real life, otherwise maybe you would give a rat's ass.

[Stephen Ave]

No, personal experience actually, not necessarily from forumers here, but from people in person in Calgary when I lived there last year.

And the only people who think I have an inferiority complex are you guys, but thankfully I couldn't give a rat's ass about what you think.

Anyways, continue with your discussion

Peace :)

For someone who doesn't give a rat's ass, you really give the opposite impression. Best thing to do is cool off on the 'hate Calgary' posts, and you'll truly look like you don't give a rat's ass.

As far as Calgary goes. Lots of great things are happening, and the city is continually improving. You might as well just get used to it.

[Markus41]

Inferiority complex maybe. :rolleyes:

So let me get this straight; Calgarians can say whatever they want about any other city, but God forbid anyone says anything bad about Calgary?

Talk about your double standard.

[freeweed]

So let me get this straight; Calgarians can say whatever they want about any other city, but God forbid anyone says anything bad about Calgary?

Talk about your double standard.

I must have missed the part where anyone in this thread was saying anything bad about other cities.

'Twas a great excuse to come in and bash Calgary though, well done folks! :tup:

[Bigtime]

So let me get this straight; Calgarians can say whatever they want about any other city, but God forbid anyone says anything bad about Calgary?

Talk about your double standard.

That's funny, I could have sworn I just read 3 pages where everyone was having a constructive discussion about an article we all felt did a really great job of not just stereotyping either city.

But thanks for coming out! :tup:

Edit: For the record I'm a "Proud Albertan" that loves the entire province, you don't see me slinging shit in any single Edmonton related thread. In fact I will be visiting your fair city this weekend, I hate to dissapoint you in advance by not coming back on here after and talking trash about Edmonton.

[IntotheWest]

So let me get this straight; Calgarians can say whatever they want about any other city, but God forbid anyone says anything bad about Calgary?

Talk about your double standard.

Markus, if "Edmonton" isn't in the thread title (or, "Calgary" is), stay clear of reading the contents...you obviously can't handle it.

[Calgarian]

So let me get this straight; Calgarians can say whatever they want about any other city, but God forbid anyone says anything bad about Calgary?

Talk about your double standard.

Who are we bashing? Look, if you don't have anything to contribute, don't post here.

[SpongeG]

each city is what it is - vancouver isn't that great for certain careers but great for others - i have a friend who is in a field and his choice of jobs is extremely sparse - compared to places in ontario where he would have dozens of places he could go work

he is currently thinking of going back to school for landscaping related jobs as he doesn't really want to leave the city

anyway if you can find your place here its pretty good but it can be tough - the typical job is low paying and rent is crazy high

but the benefits of great parks, outdoors, climate and great restaurant life outweigh the worst i think

[wild wild west]

Guys, in debating Greco or Markus keep in mind where the comment is coming from. Judging by the quality of their comments I think they are a couple of 12-year-olds just trying to get a rise out of people. Ignoring them will encourage them to seek entertainment elsewhere.

[Bigtime]

Guys, in debating Greco or Markus keep in mind where the comment is coming from. Judging by the quality of their comments I think they are a couple of 12-year-olds just trying to get a rise out of people. Ignoring them will encourage them to seek entertainment elsewhere.

I view it as kind of a "how many 5 years olds could you take at once?" kind of thing! :haha:

[Tarsus]

So let me get this straight; Calgarians can say whatever they want about any other city, but God forbid anyone says anything bad about Calgary?

Talk about your double standard.

Where on this thread do you see anyone from Calgary putting down Winnipeg (Greco's town) or Edmonton??

This was a thread about Calgary and Vancouver, and it was an objective, civil debate until Greco showed up with his usual hate on for Calgary. If not for him being here there would be none of this stuff.

[wild wild west]

I view it as kind of a "how many 5 years olds could you take at once?" kind of thing! :haha:

:haha: :jester: Well put!

[freeweed]

This will make them feel better: (http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2008/07/31/6315216-sun.html)

A survey commissioned by FastLife.ca, considered Canada's largest speed-dating service, has just revealed where in the nation the sexiest people can be found.

It seems a small wonder that the city of Winnipeg came in as the top sexy spot, while slightly less-surprising is the news that Vancouver landed second place and Calgary ranked third.

In addition, our city's individual neighbourhoods of Kensington and Lower Mount Royal managed to squeeze their way onto the country's top 10 list of sexy neighbourhoods at fourth and seventh place, respectively.

Perhaps most shocking, however, was the finding that while Edmonton's men ranked No. 1 in the nation in male sexiness, Edmonton's women came in a dismal last place. Better luck next year to our homely neighbours to the north.

[ST1]

^ It's no surprise that Calgary would rank up there, just on the women alone. You've got beautiful women down there.

[Calgarian]

I view it as kind of a "how many 5 years olds could you take at once?" kind of thing! :haha:

Sounds like something Michael Jackson would say.

[Bigtime]

Sounds like something Michael Jackson would say.

Yikes! I forgot to add to that sentence in a fight?

[DizzyEdge]

What were we talking about again?

[wild wild west]

Aw come on Freeweed, your original tagline was so much better!;)

[freeweed]

Aw come on Freeweed, your original tagline was so much better!;)

I'm trying so hard to not make these flamewars get out of control... thankfully no one quoted it. :haha:

[SHOFEAR]

Markus, all you have to do is look at previous posts by Greco to see why people jumped on him. He puts down calgary every chance he gets (just read some of the winnipeg threads) but cries bloody murder every time somebdy makes a comment about winnipeg no matter what the intent is.

This is the type of article that makes Calgary great. They aim high and perhaps stretch some stuff. Watch, the edmonton journal will do something similar, but we'll use winnipeg instead. woohoo :(

[IntotheWest]

Watch, the edmonton journal will do something similar, but we'll use winnipeg instead. woohoo :(

I tried hard not to laugh...but that is kinda funny. Nothing wrong with Edmonton or Winnipeg (all Prairie cities feel in some ways similar anyway).

[Calgarian]

I tried hard not to laugh...but that is kinda funny. Nothing wrong with Edmonton or Winnipeg (all Prairie cities feel in some ways similar anyway).

Edmonton and Winnipeg do have a similar feel to them, but Calgary seems to be a little more fast paced than both.

[cdnklc]

Edmonton and Winnipeg do have a similar feel to them, but Calgary seems to be a little more fast paced than both.
except during rush hour, which we seem to be able to get through quicker and faster than calgary... :)

anyway, if i had any real complaint here it would be about the very title of this thread - edmonton doesn't really compete with calgary (or vice versa for that matter). if anything, the two cities are complimentary to each other and each one makes the other richer. it's just that edmonton really is a way better city, particularly if you're an edmontonian (just as calgary is to calgarians, even if it's only because they don't know any better). :) :)

[Boris2k7]

anyway, if i had any real complaint here it would be about the very title of this thread - edmonton doesn't really compete with calgary

Well, you are certainly in luck here, because the article agrees. Calgary doesn't compete with Edmonton anymore... now we compete with bigger fish like Vancouver!

[Me&You]

anyway, if i had any real complaint here it would be about the very title of this thread )

Then the real issue shouldn't be with the name of the thread, but the name of the article that inspired this thread :) (Again, Calgarians getting blamed for "tooting our horn" :D )

[0773|=\]

Does anyone in Edmonton have an online Journal subscription and could dig up the article in the Sunday Reader two Sundays ago that talked about Edmonton and Calgary's self-perceptions? It was a good read, and the more posts I read on this thread, the more weight the article seems to carry!

[freeweed]

(just as calgary is to calgarians, even if it's only because they don't know any better). :) :)

Or as Calgary is to Calgarians that DO know better.

Some of us don't just like their city due to an accident of birth, unlike I bet 90% of people on these forums. ;)

[Calgarian]

What happened to the tale of two cities in Calgary and Edmonton that the Herald and Journal did? did that series finish?

[Boris2k7]

Johnnyc: yeah, I figure it finished a while ago.

...

I actually like both Edmonton and Calgary, but that perhaps comes from the fact that I lived in both cities. I prefer Calgary, but there is a lot about this city that just frustrates the hell out of me. I need to get out-of-country for a few years methinks.

EDIT: Oh, it's also a good time to get up to Edmonton people. Plenty of festivals going on. I'm heading up for a few days this weekend myself (will bring camera along, staying downtown).

Although what I really want to do is head out to Vegreville for the Ukrainian Food Festival! http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2792/party0021ut0.gif

[Reesonov]

Does anyone in Edmonton have an online Journal subscription and could dig up the article in the Sunday Reader two Sundays ago that talked about Edmonton and Calgary's self-perceptions? It was a good read, and the more posts I read on this thread, the more weight the article seems to carry!

It was posted in the Edmonton Construction thread a week or so ago. It is certainly worth a read for those who haven't read it yet.

[Wooster]

I think this is the one:

Are we world-class?

In brash-talking Calgary, the answer to that question is a resounding yes --and Calgarians think the rest of the country would agree with them. In Edmonton, not so much. We're good, all right, but we don't brag or carry on. We're, well, we're Edmonton

David Staples
The Edmonton Journal

Sunday, July 20, 2008

They are Veronica. We are Betty.

They are Lucy. We are Charlie Brown.

They are Calgary. We are Edmonton. And a new survey shows that Calgarians think more of their beloved city than Edmontonians think of Edmonton. Not only that, Calgarians are quite certain that others have the same high regard for Calgary as they themselves do. But Edmontonians think others see their city as a second-tier outpost.

The survey, conducted by the University of Alberta's Population Research Laboratory, explored the priorities of Edmontonians and Calgarians, as well as issues around the self-esteem of Alberta's two major cities.

Asked if they thought Edmonton was a world-class city, 61 per cent of Edmontonians said that this was the case, 29 per cent said it was not, while 10 per cent said they weren't sure.

But in Calgary, 76 of those surveyed felt their city was world-class, with just 19 per cent against this proposition, and five per cent not sure.

The kicker, though, was the followup question: Do you think other Canadians view your city as a world-class city?

In Edmonton, just 26 per cent said other Canadians would deem Edmonton to be world-class, while 56 per cent of Calgarians thought outsiders would think that Calgary is world-class.

"Calgarians have a very high opinion of themselves and assume everybody else does, too," says Prof. Bruce Johnson, an economics professor at Centre College in Danville, Ky., and the study's lead author. "And Edmonton, I don't want to say they have a chip on their shoulders, but they don't think they get the respect they deserve."

Edmonton's Mayor Stephen Mandel says Edmontonians just aren't the kind of people who brag about themselves or their city. They see the city differently, and in a more critical light, than the rest of the world sees the city. "Often times, the most critical people about the city of Edmonton are Edmontonians," Mandel says. "Whether it's good or bad, I don't know.

"Sometimes it makes it difficult for Edmontonians to sell Edmonton because they don't have the kind of belief in the city that other (outside) people have."

Do Edmontonians have a self-esteem problem about their city?

"I don't know if they do or not," says Mandel. "I think our self-esteem is growing exponentially. I think we once had (a problem) but we're now feeling more confident in ourselves as a city, I hope."

Patrick LaForge, president of the Edmonton Oilers and chairman of the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce, agrees that Edmonton is on an upswing. "It's on the road to greatness and it's figuring out what to do about it. I think it's in the transition mode, not in a negative mode."

In certain businesses, such as hydrocarbons, education and health care, Edmonton is world-class, LaForge says. But people not connected to those areas might be ambivalent about Edmonton as a world-class city. "Edmontonians are very realistic, maybe a little more logical about where their role is in the world and their connection to it," LaForge says.

As for Calgary's seemingly high self-esteem score, LaForge says, "I'm amazed that Calgary scored so low. Most Calgarians think the place is the bee's knees."

Johnson and John Whitehead, an economics professor at Appalachian State University, worked on the survey with Dan Mason, a sports business professor at the University of Alberta. More than 900 Albertans were interviewed about their civic priorities. The results are still preliminary, Mason stresses, with final results to be presented at a conference in November.

When he was conceiving of the study, Mason wondered if Edmonton and Calgary might be different when it comes to self-image, and if that difference might affect the willingness to pay for improved downtown districts, which could include the construction of new arenas.

Mason, who grew up in the Okanagan and studied in Vancouver and Washington, D.C., before moving to Edmonton, had long suspected Edmonton might have something of an inferiority complex. He recalls how strongly the city reacted when a London newspaper columnist, Robert Philip, labelled the city "Deadmonton" during the 2001 World Championships in Athletics.

For a few weeks, Philip was Public Enemy No. 1 in Edmonton, and got all kinds of media coverage. Mayor Bill Smith went so far as to organize a helicopter tour of the city for Philip in order to change his mind. "I wouldn't want a writer of a newspaper that's going all over the world to leave this city with the wrong impression," Smith explained.

But Mason wonders why anyone cared what Philip had to say. "Do you think that if somebody from Indianapolis went and covered the London Olympics in 2012 and wrote that he thought the subway was dirty that it would get big play in London?" he asks.

Mason noticed the same strong reaction in Edmonton as a result of the Chris Pronger's rejection of the city because his American wife, Lauren, didn't like it here.

"There's a lot of people who leave Vancouver because their wives hate it, but Vancouver doesn't care."

For his part, Mandel says he puts zero weight on Lauren Pronger's take on Edmonton. "Who cares about her?" he scoffs. "She's a very, very wealthy person from St. Louis. She's a hockey wife, who is all alone, who didn't want to leave that city, which is where she's from, and she didn't adjust well. Lots of times, people come to cities and don't adjust well. I don't think she would be the one we should use as the bellwether for the city of Edmonton."

Nonetheless, public interest in the Prongers remains strong, as witnessed by massive readership for any news item about the pair.

Rejection of this city continues to repulse and fascinate Edmontonians, just as it did in the 1980s, when Montreal writer Mordecai Richler blasted Edmonton as the "boiler room" of Canadian cities.

Mason has also seen the self-esteem issue at play through the defensive reaction of some critics of the downtown arena proposal. "For them, it's like, 'My Edmonton is fine and I don't want change.' I would argue that's kind of a manifestation of that inferiority complex. Rather than saying, 'What can we do to make our city better?' it's like, 'Our city is good enough, damn it. We don't need these things. ... If you don't like it, you can go home.' "

Now that he's lived in Edmonton for some time and faced questions from outsiders about why he chooses to live in such a cold and remote place, Mason says he understands some of this defensiveness. "You just get tired of, 'Edmonton, that's way up north. Why would you want to raise a family up there?' "

But the survey shows a different attitude in Calgary, Mason says, where there is more of an emphasis on arts and culture and on a vibrant downtown, as well as more support for having a new arena built downtown rather than in the suburbs.

"Calgarians are high on the horse," Mason says. "They also value downtown a lot more."

In Edmonton, 37.4 per cent in the survey thought arts and culture was a "very important" quality-of-life issue, while 43.2 per cent of Calgarians did. Likewise, 33.6 per cent of Calgarians felt the downtown was a very important quality-of-life issue, while just 21.8 per cent of Edmontonians did.

On the arena issue, people were told in the survey: "Building an arena downtown would improve the quality of life more than building it in the suburbs," then asked if they agreed or disagreed. In Edmonton, 46.7 agreed with the statement, 41.7 disagreed, while 11.7 were neutral. In Calgary, 55.6 per cent agreed, 30.2 per cent disagreed, while 14.2 per cent were neutral.

"Calgary is a more evolved cosmopolitan

area ... ," Mason says. "They think they are world-class, and the things that make world-class cities, they have more demand for: arts and culture and a vibrant downtown."

But LaForge, who lived for eight years in Calgary, says he's not at all surprised that Calgarians are more in favour of a downtown arena and more focused on their downtown. "Everybody (in Calgary) goes downtown to work. They hate the traffic, they hate the drive, but it is downtown-centric for commercial reasons."

As for Edmonton, its businesses -- refineries and manufacturing -- tend to be on the edge of the city.

"No question that Calgary is going to say that downtown is more important because they live and breathe and eat there. Most Edmontonians do not use downtown."

There's an old Edmonton story that goes: An Edmontonian sells his business for $100 million. He says nothing. A Calgarian sells his business for $100 million. He stands on the corner and announces to the world he sold it for $200 million.

So what is Calgary's source of its boundless self-regard?

Mandel says it might have something to do with Calgary's primary business.

"Calgary is Big Oil. What does Big Oil sell? 'I'm Big Oil. Got the big hat. From Texas."

The survey explored exactly which cultural institutions in both cities were key to civic pride.

At the top of the list in Edmonton, far, far ahead of anything else, was the University of Alberta, which 82 per cent of Edmontonians deemed to be "very important" to civic pride.

Calgary had two big sources of civic pride, the University of Calgary, with a 67-per-cent "very important" ranking, and the Calgary Stampede, deemed very important by 68 per cent.

Many Edmontonians have long felt their comparable summer festival, Capital Ex, the midway carnival formerly known as Klondike Days, paled in comparison to the Stampede. This was certainly reflected in the survey, which found just 12 per cent of Edmontonians felt the Ex was "very important."

When it comes to summer fun, Edmonton's Fringe Festival scored better, with 32 per cent deeming it very important.

Even in the world of hockey, Calgary inched ahead, with 49.7 per cent of Calgarians saying the NHL's Flames are very important to civic pride, compared with 46 per cent for the Oilers.

There were a few places, though, where Edmontonians took more pride, such as the respective universities.

There was also the Canadian Football League, where 25.3 per cent of Calgarians felt the Stampeders were very important to civic pride, compared with 30 per cent for the Eskimos.

Fort Edmonton Park was also deemed very important by 37.1 per cent of Edmontonians while Heritage Park got the nod from just 17 per cent of Calgarians.

LaForge says he's bored with comparisons between Edmonton and Calgary. The key, he says, is for the cities to work together with every other place in the province, as the real competition is the rest of the world.

"I think the continual comparison with the other great city in Alberta, the other great Canadian city, is kind of silly.

"We think that sometimes just being one rung up the ladder higher than Calgary on any factor makes us better, when in reality, it doesn't. We have to compare ourselves to the global world."

The study might help Edmontonians focus on its priorities, Mason says. Right now, there's less agreement in Edmonton than in Calgary on what makes a great city and how to proceed in building one.

One result from the survey showed that Edmontonians are keen about a casino being part of any new downtown arena project, but don't care if affordable housing or arts and culture facilities are part of the arena development equation.

"I must admit I was disappointed to see Edmontonians weren't in favour of arts and culture. I didn't necessarily think it was a good thing that Edmontonians wanted a casino with this. But that's what they said. There's nothing I can do about that. But that's why you do this type of research."

For his part, Mandel says the survey asked an important question about the city's self-esteem, one that goes to the heart of Edmonton's self-perception. But one year from now, if a survey were to ask the same question, 80 per cent of Edmontonians would say this is a world-class city, Mandel believes. "I just think there is a new sense of pride in the city, a new sense of accomplishment."

Nonetheless, he's not expecting Edmonton to become a city of braggarts any time soon.

"We're a different kind of a city. We're not a city that goes out of its way to brag, or do the kind of things that would show off. We're the kind of city that is like meat and potatoes.

"We're a city that has got a great heart, and we go about doing the everyday things that make cities great. And when you do those kind of things, it's like the family that raised their two kids and takes them to baseball and dance and works hard and makes a good living, and you don't notice that they're great. But they are great.

"And that's Edmonton."

dstaples@thejournal.canwest.com
© The Edmonton Journal 2008

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[240glt]

I believe the term "world class" has lost whatever meaning it had with the publication of this article.

Having said that, the article is basically correct (a few gross generalizations asside) Calgary and Edmonton are basically similar, With Calgary having a bit of a sheen to it and Edmonton being the grittier work town.

[Coldrsx]

"world class" should fall into the grouping of:

like
neato
kevin federline

as to not ever be heard again

[Wooster]

^ ha ha. agreed.

Same with "going green". Such an overused term by everyone that it has lost all its meaning.

[Jimby]

[QUOTE=josh white;3708328]




"LaForge says he's bored with comparisons between Edmonton and Calgary. The key, he says, is for the cities to work together with every other place in the province, as the real competition is the rest of the world.

"I think the continual comparison with the other great city in Alberta, the other great Canadian city, is kind of silly."


:yes:

[0773|=\]

EDIT: Oh, it's also a good time to get up to Edmonton people. Plenty of festivals going on. I'm heading up for a few days this weekend myself (will bring camera along, staying downtown).

Although what I really want to do is head out to Vegreville for the Ukrainian Food Festival! http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2792/party0021ut0.gif


You should come to the Heritage Festival this weekend! Tons of food and you don't even have to drive the extra hour! I always pop by the French tent for crepes and the Dutch tent for ollie bollen, but this year after visiting South Africa, I'll have to hunt down more Boerwors sausage.... :slob:

[jawagord]

The only thing really original here is a Vancouver writer taking notice of Calgary and actually coming to Calgary and writing a story! While telling us what we already know (Vancouver livable, Calgary gaining head offices) the writer has missed that Calgary is already learning and copying from Vancouver, it's the one city in Canada that Calgarians look to and want to emulate. As others have posted, when the Beltline is included Calgary has a similar percentage of people living downtown as greater Vancouver, the difference is Vancouver CMA has over 2 million people compared to Calgary's 1 million which is the population Vancouver had in 1970. Give Calgary another 15 or 20 years of growth and the downtown area will be much more "livable", the question is will it then still retain it's dynamic business je ne sais quoi?

[Boris2k7]

You should come to the Heritage Festival this weekend! Tons of food and you don't even have to drive the extra hour! I always pop by the French tent for crepes and the Dutch tent for ollie bollen, but this year after visiting South Africa, I'll have to hunt down more Boerwors sausage.... :slob:

That's the plan, and...

Oh wait! I'm already here! Mooching off of Edmonton City Hall's wireless network! :tup: