[BTinSF]

Gawking tourists not welcome in the Castro
C.W. Nevius
Tuesday, August 19, 2008

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2003/11/21/ba_castro061fl.jpg

Residents of the Castro are watching with growing concern as their neighborhood becomes a regular attraction on the sightseeing tour of the city.

In the last three months, large tour buses have begun to park in the area on Thursday and Sunday afternoons, opening their doors and sending hundreds of tourists out to gawk and snap photos of the exotic sight of two men holding hands.

For gay and lesbian residents, who are doing nothing more remarkable than, say, walking over to Cliff's Hardware Store, the idea that as many as six tour buses could turn up at once seems bizarre. They also worry that the upcoming release of the movie "Milk," based on the life story of Castro Street politician Harvey Milk, will just be another step toward turning the Castro into a kind of urban theme park for looky-loos.

"It is the spectacle of people who might be different. That's all it is," said attorney Rob Guite, a Castro resident. "The tourists appear to have little regard for the neighborhood and its residents and view the stop as akin to visiting a zoo or other attraction where they are entertained by exhibits or animals."

Castro residents long ago grew accustomed to visitors strolling down the streets in ones and twos, snapping photos of the rainbow flag over Harvey Milk Plaza. There's even a thriving business providing tours for gay and lesbian vacationers from all over the world.

"God knows we love tourists," said Patrick Batt, who has owned the Auto Erotica vintage gay porn shop for 28 years. "But these people are a bunch of gawkers."

This became an issue about three months ago, which is when Michael Woo, manager of the tour department of America Asia Express sightseeing tours, said their buses began to let passengers out at Castro and 18th. He said as many as three of his company's buses stop on Thursdays and Sundays, and they are often joined by an equal number of buses from another tour company.

"They come down from Twin Peaks on the way to Civic Center," Woo said. "The tour guide told me to stop there for about 20 minutes so they can get out."

Woo said it is just to give the passengers a chance to stretch their legs, but residents say the tourists tend to cluster together in large, nervous groups, pointing at residents and taking photos.

"Many of them seem uncomfortable or shocked by their surroundings," Guite said. "You've got these throngs of people walking up and down Market and 18th, holding hands to make it clear that they are heterosexual."

Even the local merchants have had enough.

"They come in here, 15 or 20 at a time," said Sam Dughman, owner of Rossi's Deli for 31 years. "They look around, take a picture, and then they walk out. In the last three months I've sold one bottle of water. It is not worth having so much traffic. We're not a photo album."

The Castro residents don't want to ban tourists, but they would like to set some limits on tour buses, which have been parking in a Muni bus zone on Market just across the street from the Castro Theater. For some reason the curb is designated a "coach stop," not a bus stop. That means it is not painted red, so parking is allowed.

Batt is fighting the gawkers by attempting to get Muni to change the signs, paint the curb, and make the parking space a no-stopping zone for tour buses.

"The guy from Muni says it is already illegal to park there," said Batt, a past president of the Merchants of Upper Market and Castro, "but now he says we have to make it officially illegal. It's absurd."

It didn't take long for Batt to get other residents and merchants fired up about the issue.

"People contacted me," said Supervisor Bevan Dufty, who represents the area. "They were unhappy with the situation and they wanted it stopped."

The wheels are currently in motion to make that happen. Of course, the wheels of city government grind slowly. There will be a meeting of the Transportation Advisory Staff Committee next week, followed by a public hearing in September, and then a two or three month delay before the new signs are installed, according to Muni.

That's the official route. But if things start to stall, don't forget that the Castro has some resources other neighborhoods can't call upon.

"We'll just get the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence on this," Dufty said. "A few blessings from them and those tour buses would disappear."

C.W. Nevius' column appears on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturdays. E-mail him at cwnevius@sfchronicle.com.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/19/BACM12DALA.DTL

[hudkina]

"Many of them seem uncomfortable or shocked by their surroundings," Guite said. "You've got these throngs of people walking up and down Market and 18th, holding hands to make it clear that they are heterosexual."

LOL. Are you kidding me? Because "homosexuals" in this neighborhood don't do the exact same thing?;) I see heterosexuals holding hands all the time. At amusement parks, at the beach, at the store, etc. I don't think they're doing it to prove they're straight...

[MayDay]

hudkina, it's not unlike when some straight couples are at a gay bar - they hike up the PDAs to make sure that the gays around them *know* they're straight (aka guy gropes his gal in ways he normally wouldn't just so the gays know he's not on their team).

[BTinSF]

:previous: Perhaps you've got to see it live. They do look bewildered and as if they are holding each other for safety--sort of like they might do walking through that clear glass tube through the aquarium shark tank.

[brickell]

Like any other industry, people love the money that comes from tourism, but hate having it in their backyard.

[Dr. Taco]

hudkina, it's not unlike when some straight couples are at a gay bar - they hike up the PDAs to make sure that the gays around them *know* they're straight (aka guy gropes his gal in ways he normally wouldn't just so the gays know he's not on their team).

or they do it because they know it would be accepted there

[westak]

hudkina, it's not unlike when some straight couples are at a gay bar - they hike up the PDAs to make sure that the gays around them *know* they're straight (aka guy gropes his gal in ways he normally wouldn't just so the gays know he's not on their team).

and you know this how?

[volguus zildrohar]

They aren't tourists. They're late for last year's pride parade.

[krudmonk]

A lot of those comments really nailed it. There are many displays of pride in homosexuality but then people seem bothered by positive reaction to such showings. That doesn't make much sense.

[JackStraw]

Didn't the tour bus use to go down do Height Ashbury in the 60s to gauk at the tripping hippies?

I saw it like in a documentary. All these old lady's were stairing at hippies on LSD. It was pretty funny.

[pip]

tourists suck so bad I often wonder if the benefit of having them outweighs the cons.

complain complain, whine whine, gawk gawk. cheap, rude and judgemental.

want to get called a gay slur in Chicago, walk around downtown with someone who isnt mr masculine. Some tourist will call you that, no joke. Worst place to be in Chicago to come across decent people - downtown tourist areas. Just horrid. How many locals hang out a Rush/Division for a few drinks? None.

Unfortunetly Lakeview, my neighborhood, is now becoming part of that must see for tourists. Stare, make comments, laugh, point, yell things from those fake tourist trolleys. But now instead of just visiting from Michigan, for example, there is now a wholesale invasion going on for weekend fuckup parties and moving in. suburban Appalacia is the way I can think of how to describe them. They don't dare cross Uptown. Time to pack up and move to Edgewater.

I am not really bothered for example when I am on a bus and tourists hold it up asking how, when, where, why and then non transit related questions to the bus driver. Because I know in my head if I went and visited their home areas I can sit in my rental car at a green light not moving reading a map and that will be accepted.

Good for the people in the Castro for taking a stand.

Is it really worth it to have tourists? Do you really want to be a popular city? When you consider what visits and what moves in.

[harryc]

Pictures ?

Japanese tourists in Oak Park, Ill.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/harry.r.carmichael/SKtOxroOy1I/AAAAAAAAvnc/8bQst-lXW64/P1430089.JPG?imgmax=800
translator and rest of group not in frame.

People who live in Frank Lloyd Wright homes have had tourists come up to the window to take photos of the interior, luckily that is fairly rare.

[BTinSF]

I don't think the issue here is tourists per se. The Castro is the other terminus of the streetcar line from Fishermens' Wharf and also has a subway station. Most tourists used to get there by those 2 routes--in ones and twos or maybe at most groups of 4 or so. There was some concern in the neighborhood when they rebuilt the streetcar line putting the turnaround stop at Market & Castro but people have learned to live with that.

The problem people are complaining about now is tour bus loads or people taking over the streets all at once. If you've been there, you've seen it is a neighborhood of small shops (maybe 8 or 10 people can fit in many of the them) and residential streets lined with renovated Victorian houses. Rossi's Deli, mentioned in the article, would be lucky to be able to crowd in 10 people--it's basically a deli case full of cold cuts and salads on one side of a room maybe 20 by 15 ft with two or three people behind the case making sandwiches and filling salad orders to go. If a crowd of tourists "just looking" crowd in there, it terminates the selling of anything until they leave. There are many places on Castro Street like this. Harvey Milk's famous camera store was about the same size.

[hudkina]

Cry me a river...;)

[pyropius]

Anyone here read "The Crying of Lot 49"?

[LucasS6]

Somehow, I think they'll live.

And I know lots of people that get drinks and Rush/Division who live in Chicago.

[emathias]

...
want to get called a gay slur in Chicago, walk around downtown with someone who isnt mr masculine. Some tourist will call you that, no joke. Worst place to be in Chicago to come across decent people - downtown tourist areas. Just horrid. How many locals hang out a Rush/Division for a few drinks? None.

I know lots of locals who go to Rush/Division to hang out. I love eating at Bistro Zinc, personally, so walk through there all the time. I also can count on one hand the number of times I've been with a fem friend here in Chicago and heard them called a name. Once was in Lakeview on Pride Week, and once was in Gurnee, at the outlet mall. Granted I don't spend all day in tourist central, but given I live a block away from Gino's East and Ed Debevic's and close to the big River North McDonalds, I'm not exactly cloistered from tourists at any time.

Unfortunetly Lakeview, my neighborhood, is now becoming part of that must see for tourists. Stare, make comments, laugh, point, yell things from those fake tourist trolleys. But now instead of just visiting from Michigan, for example, there is now a wholesale invasion going on for weekend fuckup parties and moving in. suburban Appalacia is the way I can think of how to describe them. They don't dare cross Uptown. Time to pack up and move to Edgewater.
...

This is hardly something new. During the 20s, into the Century of Progress there were paid tours of what is now sort of the River North/south part of the Gold Coast area, to see the dens of iniquity and fancy boys and whatnot. If cycles of history truely repeat themselves, it would seem we're about to be blessed with the second coming of J. Edgar Hoover ...

[quashlo]

"Many of them seem uncomfortable or shocked by their surroundings," Guite said. "You've got these throngs of people walking up and down Market and 18th, holding hands to make it clear that they are heterosexual."
Riiiiight... :rolleyes:
Just remember that San Francisco's No. 1 industry is still tourism, which means selling an image. Like it or not, one of those images is of a tolerant city that welcomes people of all backgrounds. Another is of a diverse array of intimate neighborhoods, each with their own unique character. The Castro fits both of those. In fact, is this really all that different from what goes on in Chinatown or the Haight?

By the way, those tourists in Illinois probably aren't Japanese... If anything, they look Chinese.

[emathias]

...

By the way, those tourists in Illinois probably aren't Japanese... If anything, they look Chinese.

Well, I didn't see them/take the picture, but I'd say most Chicagoans could differentiate between Japanese, Korean and Chinese tour groups as long as they heard them speaking. Most of the Chinese tour groups here in Chicago are either businessmen or Taiwanese.

[HowardL]

or they do it because they know it would be accepted there
I've actually recently started to notice straight couples on dates at the boy bars on Halsted. Not so much at a Hydrate or MiniBar, but at Cocktail plenty of times. They seem to be having a great night out and no one seems to be bothered.

Now the cunts having Hen Parties ... they are rightly banned from most of the bars.

[Frisco_Zig]

Like North Beach and the Haight our neighborhoods are going "theme park" one at a time

[pricemazda]

or they do it because they know it would be accepted there

No you see it all the time, usually from guys. Their girlfriends have persuaded them to go along to some gay friends birthday drinks or something, and they look like they are uncomfortable, so they like a child don't let go of their partner.

It's usually amusing to watch. Because they know they should be cool with it but really they aren't.

[harryc]

Riiiiight... :rolleyes:
Just remember that San Francisco's No. 1 industry is still tourism, which means selling an image. Like it or not, one of those images is of a tolerant city that welcomes people of all backgrounds. Another is of a diverse array of intimate neighborhoods, each with their own unique character. The Castro fits both of those. In fact, is this really all that different from what goes on in Chinatown or the Haight?

By the way, those tourists in Illinois probably aren't Japanese... If anything, they look Chinese.

Most Chinese tour groups don't use Japanese translators. I don't know how much tourism adds to the local economy of this SUBURB but most of us find it nice that people would come (literally ) from the other side of the planet to view our cool little village. It might be different if the came to gawk at us instead of the FLW buildings.

[hauntedheadnc]

Oh, tourists are just big ol' wads of fun. Some of the ones prowling the neighborhoods here will knock on the door of some grand old house and demand to know of the owner how much they'll take for it, right then, right there.

I once watched something like this happen at frickin Biltmore House (www.biltmore.com). A guy from California wanted the tour guide to tell him how much the place was worth because he wanted to buy it. The tour guide told him they couldn't put a price on it. The guy from California didn't care. He wanted it. He could afford it no matter what it cost. They eventually had to get security to take him away.

[samne]

A few years back my girlfriend and I were relaxing naturally on the Toronto Islands nude beach on a virtually empty weekday(probably only time I would).

No kidding, a pack of Asian tourists walked fully daytripping clothed onto the beach with cameras in hand.

[BTinSF]

A few years back my girlfriend and I were relaxing naturally on the Toronto Islands nude beach on a virtually empty weekday(probably only time I would).

No kidding, a pack of Asian tourists walked fully daytripping clothed onto the beach with cameras in hand.

I guess they didn't have AT&T:

I6ITNBP2BA0

[dfane]

who cares!!!
people bitch when they dont get tourists now bitch when they get em
boo hoo

[BTinSF]

:previous: Different people.

[alexjon]

If I'm gay and I know plenty of people who live there and hate doing touristy things-- am I exempt from feeling bad for doing ANYTHING in the Castro as a non-resident? Like, for example, friend A says "oh man, the one thing you should do in town is visit XYZ restaurant" and I do, am I suddenly a gawking tourist?

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

I recall years ago reading about how this was an issue. The Grey Line tour bus company used to route their SF tours through the Castro to show off the freaks. I think pressure stopped Grey Line from doing this.

Looks like the issue has come back again.

[brickell]

I think there's 2 real problems here -

1) Sightseers vs buyers.

A lot of places have this problem. It's why you'll see nothing but schlock in Times Square

2) people floods

I've seen the bus thing here in Miami on occasion and in Greenwich Village. It's a lesser evil than the cruise ships dumping thousands but the effect seems similar. Overwhelming a place with mostly sightseers and scaring away the paying customers (tourist or local).

There's a constant debate around Miami Beach about the right kind of tourist to attract. They're through with the party crowd (the clubbers and the Memorail day hip-hoppers) and are increasingly luring europeans. They spend more money and are lower maintenance.

[Joey D]

The problem here probably isn't the people admiring homosexuality, but rather going there for a freakshow. The people who would go there to see this "freakshow" likely wouldn't be the open minded folk from NYC or DC and are probably pretty repulsed by it, which could kill the total free-from-criticizm vibe that gay neighborhoods strive for.

The real issues surround the possibility of gay people avoiding the are and area merchants because of the probable snickering and criticizm by less-than-open minded tourists from middle America and traditional countries. I know I go to the Phila "hood" so I don't have to worry about the posibility of PDA and being gawked at, or treated like a freakshow.

I dont think people understand the issue written between the lines here. These people will mess that part of the neighborhood up, and the merchants are pissed because they know their little street will be avoided by the spend-money-like-water gays.

To me, this wouldn't be a huge deal, as I would just stay 2 streets over to avoid these weirdo tourists, but I'll bet the merchants would freak out over me now avoiding their place.

[PhillyRising]

LOL. Are you kidding me? Because "homosexuals" in this neighborhood don't do the exact same thing?;) I see heterosexuals holding hands all the time. At amusement parks, at the beach, at the store, etc. I don't think they're doing it to prove they're straight...

...and how many gays do you see holding hands at amusement parks...the beach or the store??

You see...gays hold hands in the Castro because it's within the safe confines of the "gayborhood". If these tourists get off the bus...see gays doing the same things in public that they take for granted doing themselves but are not used to seeing gay men and women doing it...they grab each other as a defensive reaction.

The people in the Castro probably don't mind tourists who come to enjoy what it has to offer. They just don't want to have to be made to feel uncomfortable in their own neighborhood by people who show up and act like they are seeing a freak show or an exhibit at the zoo. Tolerance is a two way street.

I've seen this stuff up in Provincetown as well.

[OhioGuy]

The people in the Castro probably don't mind tourists who come to enjoy what it has to offer. They just don't want to have to be made to feel uncomfortable in their own neighborhood by people who show up and act like they are seeing a freak show or an exhibit at the zoo. Tolerance is a two way street.

And adding to this, the thing is that it sounds like the tourists aren't adding much to the neighborhood. It sounds mainly as if it's more like a zoo visit. Get out of the bus, gawk at all of the "unusual" sites, don't provide any significant economic impacts to the local businesses, and then hop on the bus back to safety. I have a feeling most in the Castro don't have a problem with tourists who wander into the neighborhood on foot or on public transit and who actually spend some money in the businesses there... but having bus loads of gawkers sounds to me like a big nuisance.

[Dr. Taco]

sucks to live in a free country, doesn't it

and it seriously does suck when someone goes into a store and doesn't buy anything, but we all do it all the time, gay neighborhood or no. If I bought something everywhere I went, I would have lots of stuff and live in a cardboard box

[trvlr70]

When I lived in San Francisco, I never even went to the Casto....and I'm GAY. Only when out-of-towners were visiting and they forced me to go, did I venture in that area.

The great part of SF is that, if you're gay, you don't have to hang out in any particular hood. You pretty much feel accepted all over the city.

[OhioGuy]

sucks to live in a free country, doesn't it

and it seriously does suck when someone goes into a store and doesn't buy anything, but we all do it all the time, gay neighborhood or no. If I bought something everywhere I went, I would have lots of stuff and live in a cardboard box

You just don't get it. But it's not the first time.

[fflint]

sucks to live in a free country, doesn't it

and it seriously does suck when someone goes into a store and doesn't buy anything, but we all do it all the time, gay neighborhood or no. If I bought something everywhere I went, I would have lots of stuff and live in a cardboard box

Despite your obvious ability to reason, it is posts like these--fundamentally unserious, fatuous and contemptuously ignorant of the real issue being raised--that makes you seem so unreasonable so often.

Your comment fails even on its own terms. Free country? You mean like a country in which citizens are free to successfully organize and shape the direction of their own neighborhoods?"

[Dr. Taco]

Despite your obvious ability to reason, it is posts like these--fundamentally unserious, fatuous and contemptuously ignorant of the real issue being raised--that makes you seem so unreasonable so often.

Your comment fails even on its own terms. Free country? You mean like a country in which citizens are free to successfully organize and shape the direction of their own neighborhoods?"

free in that there aren't very many gated community's in a big city!

and i'm plenty serious at all times ;)

And I believe the issue being raised is that gays are normal people and it's not fair that people come and gawk at the freak show. But come on. You go to boystown on a friday night in the summer and there are guys in g-strings. There are obvious transvestites. Rainbows everywhere. Not to mention the neighborhood is a really nice, cool neighborhood. It's very interesting. Just like millenium park. It's the gay community's fault for marketing themselves that way, even if it wasn't their intention

[The Agonist]

tourists suck so bad I often wonder if the benefit of having them outweighs the cons.

complain complain, whine whine, gawk gawk. cheap, rude and judgemental.

want to get called a gay slur in Chicago, walk around downtown with someone who isnt mr masculine. Some tourist will call you that, no joke. Worst place to be in Chicago to come across decent people - downtown tourist areas. Just horrid. How many locals hang out a Rush/Division for a few drinks? None.

Unfortunetly Lakeview, my neighborhood, is now becoming part of that must see for tourists. Stare, make comments, laugh, point, yell things from those fake tourist trolleys. But now instead of just visiting from Michigan, for example, there is now a wholesale invasion going on for weekend fuckup parties and moving in. suburban Appalacia is the way I can think of how to describe them. They don't dare cross Uptown. Time to pack up and move to Edgewater.

I am not really bothered for example when I am on a bus and tourists hold it up asking how, when, where, why and then non transit related questions to the bus driver. Because I know in my head if I went and visited their home areas I can sit in my rental car at a green light not moving reading a map and that will be accepted.

Good for the people in the Castro for taking a stand.

Is it really worth it to have tourists? Do you really want to be a popular city? When you consider what visits and what moves in.

Yes it is worth living in a city worthy of having tourists. Besides, I love to travel myself. Hence, hating tourists is tantamount to hating myself. ten years ago I lived on 15th and castro. It's a great neighborhood. I don't think it would be my first neighborhood to visit if I was visiting but it would be in the top ten.

As an aside, didn't we recently (last couple years) have an article posted about how the Castro is no long a gay bastion and is now over run with mommies and their baby strollers?

[PhillyRising]

sucks to live in a free country, doesn't it

and it seriously does suck when someone goes into a store and doesn't buy anything, but we all do it all the time, gay neighborhood or no. If I bought something everywhere I went, I would have lots of stuff and live in a cardboard box

Cool...so you won't mind if I organize a Drag Queen Parade for your street?

[PhillyRising]

And I believe the issue being raised is that gays are normal people and it's not fair that people come and gawk at the freak show. But come on. You go to boystown on a friday night in the summer and there are guys in g-strings. There are obvious transvestites. Rainbows everywhere. Not to mention the neighborhood is a really nice, cool neighborhood. It's very interesting. Just like millenium park. It's the gay community's fault for marketing themselves that way, even if it wasn't their intention

So...you think Boystown and gay neighborhoods in general are a freak show? How is any of that any different than walking into a straight bar/club and watching the drunken spectacle that plays out in them every weekend?

[HowardL]

It's seems that one solution might be to organize a volunteer group, say some six foot drag queens, as anti-tourist counterpoints.

It would sort of be performance art, but they would swarm and mock the tourist groups when they get out of hand. All in fun, but simply and firmly demonstrating to the slack jawwed amongst the gawkers that both sides can just as easily abstract and objectify the others.

If there is someone there, say a group of six foot drag queens, to remind you on the spot that you're well out of line, then maybe you can spend the rest of your stay in the neighborhood without being rude and obnoxious.

And PS, I think that groups of six foot drag queens could well be the solution to many of the planet's issues. With the amount of thought and effort going into those outfits, you know there is some dedication there. And you only fuck with a drag queen once in your life. They are forces to be reckoned with.

Anyway, back to the arguing.

[alexjon]

Where are the Sisters in all this? They need to be out performing exorcisms.

[fflint]

The claim that people walk around in g-strings on the street on summer Friday nights in the Castro is willfully ignorant, and perfectly engenders the idiocy evinced by these busloads of tourists clutching each other in fear and wonder at "the gays" so dangerously close by.

The Castro is only nominally gay these days anyway. Castro Street itself--which is the site of these weird tourist gaggles--isn't so much "gay" as it is "upscale." As in, all about the dollars and willing to take money from straights as well as from gays.

Busloads of tourists spill forth, block the Muni bus lanes, and annoy locals? Yeah--no. That's not the kind of tourism San Franciscans support. And it looks like something is going to be done about it.

[alexjon]

Unlike a zoo, any bears you find in the Castro are not in cages

[BTinSF]

Nevius on gawking tourists in the Castro
C.W. Nevius
Friday, August 22, 2008

The controversial tour buses pulled up at the corner of Castro and Market right on schedule Thursday afternoon. At 4 p.m., the doors opened and clusters of tourists clambered down the steps, blinking in the bright San Francisco sun.

One visitor said they had been prepped by their tour guide for the full Castro experience.

"He said we will be able to tell the homosexuals by the way they dress and the way they walk," said Livia Dekker, a visitor from Holland.

The buses, which began making the Castro a regular stop only about three months ago, have stirred up quite a fuss in the neighborhood. Some residents say they feel like exhibits in a zoo when clusters of camera-clicking tour groups hit the streets.

Two tour companies, America Asia Express and Far West Charter, seem to have attracted most of the attention. The companies not only send large groups into the Castro on Thursday and Sunday afternoons, but they also park at Muni bus stops.

Local merchants like Herb Cohn, who is president of the Castro/Upper Market Community Benefit District, are working to get the city to paint the bus stop curbs red to keep the large tour buses from parking at the Muni stops.

But somewhere in the concern about where the tour groups park and the number of tourists who arrive at once, Cohn said, the message became garbled.

"Somehow, it got out that we didn't want tourists in the Castro at all," Cohn said. "Of course, that is not the case. What doesn't help the situation is unloading mobs of people with cameras who only want to gawk."

Cohn and others said some of the tourists stop at shops like All American Boy to giggle and point at the gay-themed merchandise.

But it appears that the concerns have been heard since the complaints were aired in this column earlier this week. The tour organizers seemed to be in full spin control Thursday.

Rossi's Delicatessen owner Sam Dughman had complained that the bus tourists would stroll in, look around and walk back out without making a purchase. But on Thursday, Dughman's brother, Osama, could barely keep up with the sales.

"Before, they bought nothing," he said. "This time, they bought bananas, yogurt. They bought a lot. I almost cried."

Osama Dughman was just kidding about crying. In fact, he's among the Castro merchants who don't see what the fuss is all about.

"Tourists are good for everybody," he said. "If they don't buy, so what? My brother is crazy."

It is safe to say that this has been a much-debated topic up and down Castro Street over the last few days. Everyone, it seems, has an opinion.

"I know other people have the feeling that people are here to gawk at them," said Allen Beard, manager of Gelateria Naia, a gelato store. "I definitely notice the crowd, but it doesn't bother me."

As for the tourists, some of them seemed a little confused about where they were.

"This is gay town," said Ben Tratborwoin, a visitor from Thailand.

Tratborwoin said he paid an extra $20 for a tour package that included a stop in the Castro, adding that some members of his group elected to stay on the bus.

Frankly, some of the tourists sounded as if they expected something much more wild and crazy.

"I don't know if I feel any different about this than any other neighborhood," said Matthew Pradjanata, who was visiting with his mother from Bali.

"They told us this was the homosexual area," said Matthew's mother, Endang. "But I didn't feel anything."

So that's a good thing, right? The tourists come in, they go out. No big deal. Once the curbs in front of the bus stops are painted red - and word is that the city is trying to rush the process that was expected to take months - all will be well.

Almost.

There is one other factor. If one of the major problems is that the tourists are wandering up and down the street staring at people, wouldn't it be a good idea to give them something to see?

In fact, the district's supervisor, Bevan Dufty, has been working with Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Historical Society to move the organization's archives and displays to a vacant storefront at Castro and 18th.

"Right now, there isn't any place to get a sense of the history, the controversies and the achievements of the community," said Dufty aide Boe Hayward.

After all, after the December release of the movie "Milk" - the Sean Penn film about the late Castro Street politician and activist Harvey Milk - the thinking is that there will be even more interest in the neighborhood.

And, most likely, in the residents.

So, a little historical perspective would be a nice idea. Tourists who are so inclined might learn something about the neighborhood, the issues and the people.

They might even learn that gay people walk and dress a lot like them.

C.W. Nevius' column normally appears on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. E-mail him at cwnevius@sfchronicle.com.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/22/BARH12GF1N.DTL

[BTinSF]

It's seems that one solution might be to organize a volunteer group, say some six foot drag queens, as anti-tourist counterpoints.

It would sort of be performance art, but they would swarm and mock the tourist groups when they get out of hand.

That actually was suggested in the original article: "We'll just get the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence on this," Dufty said. "A few blessings from them and those tour buses would disappear."

Dufty is the city Supervisor representing the area and a gay man.

This is the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Sisters_Michael_Brandon.jpg
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sisters_Michael_Brandon.jpg

[vid]

"They told us this was the homosexual area," said Matthew's mother, Endang. "But I didn't feel anything."

:haha:

[alexjon]

That actually was suggested in the original article: "We'll just get the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence on this," Dufty said. "A few blessings from them and those tour buses would disappear."

Dufty is the city Supervisor representing the area and a gay man.

This is the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Sisters_Michael_Brandon.jpg
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sisters_Michael_Brandon.jpg

Well, I dunno-- I imagine the Castro is already Sacred Space to them... we may need something more powerful. Maybe it is time to elect a Papess.

[emathias]

It's seems that one solution might be to organize a volunteer group, say some six foot drag queens, as anti-tourist counterpoints.
...

If they did that, *I'D* want to go see that, so it might just compound the crowding problem ;-)

[krudmonk]

Maybe gay people shouldn't live in the Castro. Not only is the majority of San Francisco accepting on alternative lifestyles, but so is much of California. I know three gay men who live up there and none live in that neighborhood. The place is like Male Homosexuality For Dummies. I'd say this is as dumb as someone moving to the windy block of Lombard Street and complaining about the people who come to experience that. Fuck, figure it out.

[Capsule F]

This article and discussion is discriminatory against straight people.

[alexjon]

This article and discussion is discriminatory against straight people.

:tup:

[BTinSF]

I know three gay men who live up there and none live in that neighborhood.

Hello! Now you know 4. ;)

But I have to admit it's partly that I can't afford it. Once I did almost buy a house there but then I contemplated the maintenance costs of owning a Victorian and swiftly decided a modern condo was better for me.

[alexjon]

Hello! Now you know 4. ;)

But I have to admit it's partly that I can't afford it. Once I did almost buy a house there but then I contemplated the maintenance costs of owning a Victorian and swiftly decided a modern condo was better for me.

What do Victorians cost in 'Frisco nowadays?

[UglymanCometh]

They aren't tourists. They're late for last year's pride parade.

Or early for next year's? :shrug:

[SpongeG]

we get looky loos at the gay bars here sometimes

usually a group of japanese girls - they giggle at everything and stare and stare and they have their cameras

usualy the bouncers tell them no cameras

its not exactly comforting to be viewed as something so different and gawk worthy

[someone123]

No you see it all the time, usually from guys. Their girlfriends have persuaded them to go along to some gay friends birthday drinks or something, and they look like they are uncomfortable, so they like a child don't let go of their partner.

It's usually amusing to watch. Because they know they should be cool with it but really they aren't.

Yes, I see this all the time. It does not make much sense to me since the fear is that they will be hit on but the implications are simply that somebody finds them attractive. It's a compliment, but I guess they feel it undermines their masculinity. No question that there's some real prejudice behind this since being mistaken for gay is only a big problem if you think being presumed gay is worse than being presumed straight (many/most people do).

I've never been to this area but it's not hard to imagine how bad tourists could be in this kind of situation. They'd be easy to scare off though, and storeowners can tell them to just get out if they're not buying anything.

[alon504]

How do you think people in New Orleans feel when they are rebuilding their homes in quiet neighborhoods that were flooded with Katrina and bus loads of tourists ride by to see a "so-called disaster area" taking pictures of people rebuilding. The area isn't even a disaster area anymore, it is a recovery area where there are people rebuilding their lives. It's stupid and ignorant. It's gawking. The people rebuilding in Lakeview likely have a much higher income than those on the buses, for crying out loud.
As far as Castro, it sorta sounds like the people in Castro are being a little over-paranoid. What is the name of the tour? In New Orleans it's called "The Disaster Tour," so you know why people are looking. Is it called the "Gay Tour," or something along the lines of getting to see a "thriving gay American neighborhood?" Then they may have an argument. We have gay people all over New Orleans, very heavily along the opposite side of the French Quarter from Downtown, and there are tourists all over that neighborhood daily, however, I really do not recall people ever taking pictures of people there because they are gay. And, trust, it is NOT hidden anywhere in New Orleans. It is clear to see anywhere in New Orleans. There are gay people all over, but, especially along the outer areas of the Quarter and tourists don't even seem to look twice, to be honest.
Now, this weekend, in New Orleans you will have over 150,000 gays in New Orleans visiting for this celebration: http://www.southerndecadence.net/pictures.htm Straight and gay people do watch this event. Heck, we're going to see the parade on Sunday, as we do every year, with cameras in hand.

[quashlo]

I asked this earlier, but I don't believe anyone answered it...
How is this different from what goes on in Chinatown?
Tourists come "gawking" through that neighborhood much more often than the Castro, and yet no one seems to be up in arms about it... They scream at the frogs, the live chickens, hold their noses when passing the markets, and yet no one says a thing. Hmm... ;)

[pip]

^haha I have actually thought of that before

the last real neighborhood in Boston, Chinatown.

basically tourists suck. admire what you see. really is as simple as that.

[BTinSF]

What do Victorians cost in 'Frisco nowadays?

Unrenovated, you might get one for under a million (I was looking at them it was 1982). A nicely renovated one would be a couple of million.

E.g. this one, in the Castro (76 Caselli St.), on the market for $2,288,800 (down from $2,458,000):

http://www.socketsite.com/76%20Caselli.jpg
Source (and many interior photos) at http://sfarmls.rapmls.com/scripts/mgrqispi.dll?APPNAME=Sanfrancisco&PRGNAME=MLSPictureDescriptions&ARGUMENTS=-N980133161,-N000345546,-APB,-N0,-N0,-A,-LFalse,-N,-ASFAR

[statler]

I have a rather stupid and off-topic question.

I've noticed that a lot of Victorian and other older building in San Fran have garages build under them. How did this come about?

Are they later additions? If so, what did the ground floor look like originally? Were the houses jacked up to add the garages?

If they are original to the house, wouldn't they pre-date the automobile? Are these late, late period Victorians or did people keep their horses under their house?

[alexjon]

Unrenovated, you might get one for under a million (when I was looking at them it was 1982). A nicely renovated one would be a couple of million.

E.g. this one, in the Castro (76 Caselli St.), on the market for $2,288,800 (down from $2,458,000):



(Sorry about saying the F word-- that was provocative!! ;))

But yeah, that doesn't surprise me and does not seem unreasonable at all. I think based on history and prestige, they're somewhat akin to places like this in Twain's other "great american city", San Antonio: http://www.terrellcastle.net/

Personally, if I had the money for a renovated one, I'd probably still go for the unrenovated. Can you imagine the possibilities? Hand-painted trim, artisan-crafted doors-- so awesome.

[youbetcha1018]

Hi there. This discussion is really getting hot!:hell: I just love reading those messages. But I just want to know, what's with the gays? I'm not a gay! But I have few gay friends.:)

[BTinSF]

Personally, if I had the money for a renovated one, I'd probably still go for the unrenovated. Can you imagine the possibilities? Hand-painted trim, artisan-crafted doors-- so awesome.

It would be awesome, but Lord only knows the heartbreak. A friend of mine owned one on Russian Hill. Just after he had replaced the old, damaged pine floors with new oak plank, some plumbing busted and ruined them--time to start over.

I'm just not at all "handy" and at labor rates in SF, no way do I want that sort of headache.

[alexjon]

It would be awesome, but Lord only knows the heartbreak. A friend of mine owned one on Russian Hill. Just after he had replaced the old, damaged pine floors with new oak plank, some plumbing busted and ruined them--time to start over.

I'm just not at all "handy" and at labor rates in SF, no way do I want that sort of headache.

I'm incredibly handy and I know I could handle the problems that arise with DIYing, but you know, the possibilities are probably overwhelming. Of course, I'm sure the raw materials costs in the city are difficult to overcome.

Do you think the gawkers are partially drawn by the homes in the neighborhood?

[BTinSF]

I have a rather stupid and off-topic question.

I've noticed that a lot of Victorian and other older building in San Fran have garages build under them. How did this come about?

Are they later additions? If so, what did the ground floor look like originally? Were the houses jacked up to add the garages?

If they are original to the house, wouldn't they pre-date the automobile? Are these late, late period Victorians or did people keep their horses under their house?

I think these were originally just a basement or storage space. In the pre-refrigeration era, the space might have been used as a "root cellar" for storage of foods and other things. I have seen some of these houses undergoing renovation where they were digging out a garage under them (sometimes it even requires raising the house, sometimes digging out more dirt underneath).

In many cases the lower level has been turned into living space rather than a garage. Sometimes that space is part of the single family home and sometimes it's a so-called "inlaw apartment" with a separate entrance that can be rented.

Here's an example where it appears to be a lower level of the home (they wanted $1.795 million for this one by the way and it's also in the Castro at 545 Sanchez):

http://www.socketsite.com/545%20Sanchez.jpghttp://www.socketsite.com/545%20Sanchez%20Exterior%20Detail.jpghttp://www.socketsite.com/545%20Sanchez%20Interior%20Detail.jpg
Source: http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2008/04/details_details_details_of_an_1880s_san_francisco_stick.html

[BTinSF]

Hand-painted trim, artisan-crafted doors-- so awesome.

Renovation porn (listed at $1.825 million but not in the Castro):

http://www.socketsite.com/1915%20Oak.jpghttp://www.socketsite.com/1915%20Oak%20Living.jpg
Source: http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2007/10/an_1893_victorian_at_1915_oak_for_1825_thousand.html

[BTinSF]

Do you think the gawkers are partially drawn by the homes in the neighborhood?

I very much doubt it--most of them are not Americans--but I don't know.

And once again, let's be clear, nobody really objects that much to tourists. It's several busloads of them at a time who cling together and move as a herd down rather small-scale streets and into small shops that is the problem.

[alexjon]

Renovation porn (listed at $1.825 million but not in the Castro):

The big draw for me is that fireplace-- I've redone an upstairs fireplace like that before in my old bedroom. I think it's probably a Napoleon/Josephine or Caesar/(I forget her name) tile motif in oak or mahogany with staining and a solid core. A lot of fireplaces of the era were solid pieces essentially bolted to the hearth and chimney. The one I had in my room was painted white and had jade tile-- ended up staining it as deep brown as I could get it in such a way that the jade tile (N/J in this case) didn't look tacky.

I very much doubt it--most of them are not Americans--but I don't know.

And once again, let's be clear, nobody really objects that much to tourists. It's several busloads of them at a time who cling together and move as a herd down rather small-scale streets and into small shops that is the problem.

Ah, yes, I can understand as much. The other half's shop is always mobbed this time of year by people who kinda stand around and ask "where do they throw the fish?" and "these are neat!" or just leave their kids to play with his toys even though he tells them repeatedly that they are collectibles and wind-ups for adults.

Tourism is a fickle beast.

[dfane]

Despite your obvious ability to reason, it is posts like these--fundamentally unserious, fatuous and contemptuously ignorant of the real issue being raised--that makes you seem so unreasonable so often.

Your comment fails even on its own terms. Free country? You mean like a country in which citizens are free to successfully organize and shape the direction of their own neighborhoods?"

unless they happen to be white people correct?

then that would be considered racist or segregation
sounds like a double standard here
arent you the same people who complained about a guy wanting to build a Catholic only town in Florida?
What is the difference if the people chose to live there

I think it is cool to have communities that people want to live in and shape including gay, black, asain or white, etc.

build a wall around the Castro district then and dont let anyone in who doesnt live there

problem solved

guess I will be banned again now lol

[fflint]

I'm not sure why you bothered to quote me personally--or, really, anyone at all--since you're just pulling random issues and positions out of your ass.

Unlike the forumer I was addressing, you do *not* have an obvious ability to reason.

unless they happen to be white people correct?

then that would be considered racist or segregation
sounds like a double standard here
arent you the same people who complained about a guy wanting to build a Catholic only town in Florida?
What is the difference if the people chose to live there

I think it is cool to have communities that people want to live in and shape including gay, black, asain or white, etc.

build a wall around the Castro district then and dont let anyone in who doesnt live there

problem solved

guess I will be banned again now lol

[Chicago3rd]

Maybe gay people shouldn't live in the Castro. Not only is the majority of San Francisco accepting on alternative lifestyles, but so is much of California. I know three gay men who live up there and none live in that neighborhood. The place is like Male Homosexuality For Dummies. I'd say this is as dumb as someone moving to the windy block of Lombard Street and complaining about the people who come to experience that. Fuck, figure it out.

This would be cool in the perfect world where a gay person was out all their lives and just moved to a city called San Francisco. But like Chicago we are constantly getting straight abused people moving into our city and specifically into our gay areas so that they can in a safe environment start to live out who they are. Hopefully after a few years of Church, Bars, Media, Culture, Safety, relationships, friendships....they will be able to sprout wings and move out of the gay hoods.

Except for gay tourist....the straight gawkers should just stay out or visit respectfully and enjoy what you may or may not see.