[SteelTown]

Stinson shifts to downtown core project

August 26, 2008
The Hamilton Spectator
(Aug 26, 2008)

Developer Harry Stinson is relocating his office and has plans for a new condo and hotel project.

Stinson is moving into the former Liaison College building on John Street and said he plans to redevelop the site.

Stinson recently lost $100,000 when he failed to find financing for his $9.5-million offer to buy the Royal Connaught. He bought the John Street property as part of his plans to redevelop the hotel.

Stinson said the new project will include condos and a boutique-style hotel. It will be easier to finance because of its smaller scale, he said, pegging the value at less than $10 million.

Stinson said he needed to move from his old James Street office because it's being rented for the expected federal election this fall.

The owners of the Connaught are still looking for their own financing to redevelop the hotel, said spokesperson Tony Battaglia. If financing fails, other developers have expressed interest in purchasing the property, he said.

[markbarbera]

Stinson owns the former Liaison College site and is moving ahead with the site's $10 million redevelopment into a boutique hotel and condo complex.

[SteelTown]

Think that can be done on $10 million?

[raisethehammer]

This is a smart move by Stinson.
Even his biggest naysayers have previously stated that he'd be wise to start off with a smaller project and work his way up.
Clearly that's what he is doing now. I hope it works and he can keep moving on up - literally!

[markbarbera]

I don't see why not, Steelwon. We are talking about an infill on a small footprint, not likely to exceed the height of the current Connaught building.

[BrianE]

He seems to have this obsession with boutique hotels/condos. This one track mindedness of his seem to be his achilles heel (among other issues).

[SteelTown]

If you look at the old Connaught proposal you'll see Stinson wanted sort of a replica of the Connaught facing the Court House, so Stinson is probably looking at the same height as the Connaught.

But the problem I see is the condos. With no real height there's no good view from the window. North and South side will be blocked off by neighbouring buildings and the West side faces the Court House and the East side faces the current Connaught parking lot.

[DC83]

^^ Boutique hotels are super popular, yet none exist in Hamilton. There has to be a market for them in the city.

I guess that answers my question I posted in the Connaught Thread yesterday! They weren't looking at the Hotel at all but rather the Liason College site.

[SteelTown]

Stinson finds a new project
8/26/2008

Developer Harry Stinson isn't giving up on downtown Hamilton.

After failing to finance his plans for a redevelopment of the Royal Connaught Hotel Stinson is moving to a new project.

This one is a bit smaller.

He wants to turn the former Liason College building on John Street into condo's and a boutique style hotel.

It's a project valued at about ten million dollars.

As for the Royal Connaught, Spokesman Tony Battaglia says the owners are still looking for their own financing to redevelop the hotel.

[raisethehammer]

gotta love CHML.
They just copy and paste the news from the Spec. How about sending out a reporter to interview the guy and get some different info.

[SteelTown]

Isn't Harry usually on Bill Kelly around 10am whenever something happens on the news related to him?

[DC83]

gotta love CHML.
They just copy and paste the news from the Spec. How about sending out a reporter to interview the guy and get some different info.

I actually like abbreviated news articles. I'm SO jealous of TO, Mtl and the other big cities who have Metro newspapers. They're for the 'Young Professional on the Go' aka 'ppl who think they're too busy for life' aka 'Torontonians' hahaha

I've emailed Metro News a cpl times suggesting a publication for the Greater Hamilton-Burlington area, but apparently we're too close to Toronto :(

[SteelTown]

I'm glad Harry moved on and went with a smaller project.

Though I'm sure Oscar and Tony aren't too trilled to hear a boutique hotel is being proposed right next to their hotels.

[chris k]

Great news as i walked by the other day i was wondering what was going to happen here since London Tap house has added some life to this area.

It says boutique hotel and condos but isnt the building curently on three floors or less? Is he planning on adding on, imu a little confused with the plans to this but good news none the less.

[markbarbera]

I would imagine the development will see the existing building demolished to accomodate a new building at this location.

[raisethehammer]

that existing building is one of a very few that I actually HOPE to see demolished. It's a piece of crap like the old one-storey Kit Kat building.

[DC83]

^^ it's a total piece of crap!
There isn't even a floor! It's just a pit.
Plus the Crazy Horse Saloon used to be a crackbar, right? :s

I would imagine he would tear it down and build a modern-looking boutique hotel in it's place.
Something Like:
http://www.hotelchatter.com/files/admin/victoria_residence.jpg'ish?
http://www.hotelchatter.com/story/2006/10/6/115944/895/hotels/Veronica_Residence_Boutique_Design_Hotel_So_Which_is_it_

[matt602]

He only owns the Liaison though, so the Crazy Horse is kinda neither her nor there. It and the building it is in is still owned by a numbered company. I think we might see Stinson changing that however, as it would largely increase the foot print of his project. I can't really imagine him building much anything over 5-6 stories on the Liaison footprint.

Anyway I wish him good luck, he's definitely on a better footing this time around since he actually owns the property in question. If he gets the shovel in the ground, the Connaught certainly won't be empty for much longer.

[adam]

That strip of road is in desperate need of redevelopment. It'll be great if he gets this project going.

[raisethehammer]

I know I'll incur the wrath of the Stinson-haters on the board, but once again, he's at least moving forward and trying to make a project happen downtown.
The same can't be said for most of the other slumlords who have gotten rich off letting their properties (and this city) rot for the past 4 decades.
Shame on them all.
They are the only reason that I'd have a tiny piece of my heart sad to see Stinson succeed - it'll make them a bundle of money overnight and validate their plan to speculate and harm our city for all of these years.
Of course, I love Hamilton and downtown Hamilton especially. I hope with everything that Stinson can pull this one off, even if it means helping the selfish losers that have permeated our downtown for decades.

[rousseau]

Let me get this straight: a developer seen as the leading light for the renewal of downtown Hamilton got kicked out of his rental space so that it could be provided for the use of people...who may or may not be running an "expected" election campaign?

Never mind loving or hating Harry Stinson, the man is by turns P.T. Barnum and 1970s-vintage Woody Allen, and his activities here are turning into farce. Budding novelists in Hamilton are already sharpening their pencils and waiting with baited breath for the next chapter in his saga, because you can't make this stuff up!

[thistleclub]

I would imagine the development will see the existing building demolished to accomodate a new building at this location.

Hopefully the historical plaque will pay tribute to its former life as a Kentucky Fried Chicken outlet.

Crazy Horse and the building above is, I think, owned by the same zany character who holds the deed to Joe Butt's.

[adam]

Its an uphill battle for sure but show him a little respect. He's trying to make an improvement in your city.

[FairHamilton]

There was an interview with Stinson, CEO Downtown Hamilton Partners, in the Globe and Mail's Report on Small Business. It an interview was about being an entrepreneur.

Posted only as a FYI.......

[markbarbera]

Very interesting article indeed. Although I really hate the Q&A format of a newpaper article. Lazy journalism IMO. Just leaves me feeling like the reporter couldn't meet his deadline with a real article, so he hands in the interview Q&A instead.

Here's a link to its online version (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080825.wsb-rosbmag_serialentrepreneur0826/BNStory/robSmallBizMag/)

My favourite quote from the article:

What's the biggest misconception that people have about serial entrepreneurs? The misconception that annoys me the most is that entrepreneurs are not good businesspeople. That's so totally unfair, because the entrepreneur, generally speaking, is doing something that hasn't been done before. There is no rulebook. And then you've got the know-it-alls on the sidelines who have no skin in the game and have never dealt with this themselves making condescending comments about how you're just not a good businessperson. To them, a good businessperson is somebody who has no problems. Which isn't a businessperson in my mind. I don't consider bankers businesspeople. Not that they aren't smart—some of them are—but they exist in an environment where it's not their money. They don't experience the repercussions of a mistake, so their preference is to not do something than to do something and have it fail. Whereas the entrepreneur is constantly having to do things that are difficult, unprecedented, often under pressure, and the very fact that he survives says a lot. The best businesspeople in history, if you look at their whole evolution, the number of times they had setbacks and made mistakes is enormous. But they just keep doing it. Babe Ruth struck out more often than any other batter, but he also got up and tried more often. If you don't try, if you don't show up, it's not going to happen, and entrepreneurs tend to keep trying, often in the public eye, and then they're criticized for failures. Well, that's all very fine, except the people who are drawing a salary are usually drawing a salary because some entrepreneur has kept trying.

[raisethehammer]

wow...that whole paragraph is pure gold.
I've mentioned a similar concept in previous posts. Every invention we've developed, new breakthroughs in technology, medicine, research, sports records etc.... all happened AFTER much failure and repeat effort.
I'm with Stinson 100% on this. The world as we know it exists because people were willing to take a risk and keep taking a risk over and over again despite the sideline naysayers doing nothing with their lives.

[FairHamilton]

When you pitch the impossible (100, 80, whatever storey) building that's planned on a napkin (napkin is Stinson's word, not mine) you have to generally expect naysayers.

Let's not forget there are both naysayers and proponents who don't have any "skin in the game". On this board we are all quilty. To my knowledge no one, including me, on this board put one red cent behind the Connaught project.

I'll be waiting to see who is the biggest Stinson believer and is the first person on this board is to put money into the Liaison College project. Who's going to put their money where their mouth is on this one?

[raisethehammer]

if I had money to put, I'd definitely be interested in this Liason College plan. Seems like a more logical starting point and considering the location etc....would probably do very well as a hotel/condo.

[markbarbera]

I suspect Stinson's comment about drawing the plans for The Connaught on a napkin was merely a figure of speech. However, the concept of jotting down an idea on a napkin is neither unusual nor a valid reason for skepticism. After all, Daniel Libeskind’s internationally acclaimed design for the ROM Crystal Wing was initially conceptualized by Libeskind's sketches on a bunch of napkins in the ROM's cafeteria.

[adam]

Why would someone say these projects are impossible? unless they want them to fail? Let him give it a shot. If it works out great, if it doesn't, no skin off your nose. Stinson's shown he's not a quitter. He'll succeed eventually, it might be the upcoming project or one down the line, but why be so negative?

[highwater]

After all, Daniel Libeskind’s internationally acclaimed design for the ROM Crystal Wing was initially conceptualized by Libeskind's sketches on a bunch of napkins in the ROM's cafeteria.

Then he crumpled them up and went with that. ;)

[FairHamilton]

I suspect Stinson's comment about drawing the plans for The Connaught on a napkin was merely a figure of speech. However, the concept of jotting down an idea on a napkin is neither unusual nor a valid reason for skepticism. After all, Daniel Libeskind’s internationally acclaimed design for the ROM Crystal Wing was initially conceptualized by Libeskind's sketches on a bunch of napkins in the ROM's cafeteria.

By plans, I think he meant the overall business plan, and not the building's design. If it was a figure of speech, he was foolish to say it, period. Until I see the plan for the Connaught, I don't believe there was ever one. Prove me wrong.

Also, I'm betting Libeskind's napkin concept was eventually put into a professional format. I never said brainstorming concepts on a napkin, I said "plan".

I'm not going to get into the same sort of back and forth on this one as I did with the Royal Connaught, so I'm checking out of this thread. Bye.

[adam]

So is the napkin talk over? Maybe we should move onto serviettes... :haha:

[ryan_mcgreal]

After all, Daniel Libeskind’s internationally acclaimed design for the ROM Crystal Wing was initially conceptualized by Libeskind's sketches on a bunch of napkins in the ROM's cafeteria.

Yikes! That's a strong argument against your thesis. :)

[BCTed]

Very interesting article indeed. Although I really hate the Q&A format of a newpaper article. Lazy journalism IMO. Just leaves me feeling like the reporter couldn't meet his deadline with a real article, so he hands in the interview Q&A instead.

Here's a link to its online version (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080825.wsb-rosbmag_serialentrepreneur0826/BNStory/robSmallBizMag/)

My favourite quote from the article:

What's the biggest misconception that people have about serial entrepreneurs? The misconception that annoys me the most is that entrepreneurs are not good businesspeople. That's so totally unfair, because the entrepreneur, generally speaking, is doing something that hasn't been done before. There is no rulebook. And then you've got the know-it-alls on the sidelines who have no skin in the game and have never dealt with this themselves making condescending comments about how you're just not a good businessperson. To them, a good businessperson is somebody who has no problems. Which isn't a businessperson in my mind. I don't consider bankers businesspeople. Not that they aren't smart—some of them are—but they exist in an environment where it's not their money. They don't experience the repercussions of a mistake, so their preference is to not do something than to do something and have it fail. Whereas the entrepreneur is constantly having to do things that are difficult, unprecedented, often under pressure, and the very fact that he survives says a lot. The best businesspeople in history, if you look at their whole evolution, the number of times they had setbacks and made mistakes is enormous. But they just keep doing it. Babe Ruth struck out more often than any other batter, but he also got up and tried more often. If you don't try, if you don't show up, it's not going to happen, and entrepreneurs tend to keep trying, often in the public eye, and then they're criticized for failures. Well, that's all very fine, except the people who are drawing a salary are usually drawing a salary because some entrepreneur has kept trying.

All entrepreneurs are not created equal. Some entrepreneurs are good businesspeople. Some entrepreneurs are bad businesspeople. Some entrepreneurs are good people. Some entrepreneurs are bad people. I have not seen any evidence that Harry Stinson is a good businessperson, nor have I seen any evidence that Harry Stinson is a good person.

The fact that Stinson keeps going out and failing is not an indication that he is good at what he does or that he will ever succeed. If I had to place belief into anyone, it would be someone who has a track record of success.

For fear of inexplicably being labelled a "troll" yet again for expressing my honest on-topic opinions, I will stay out of this thread for a while.

[raisethehammer]

I have yet to see any evidence that he is a bad businessperson or a bad person.
Big deal.
Let's chat in 30 years and maybe we'll know by then.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Possibly new life for the old KFC, interesting.

I've stated my case on Stinson, so I'm not going to repeat it and wade into a debate about his impact on downtown.

Looking at this project alone, and admittedly knowing relatively little about construction costs, I'm a little...ummm...skeptical of the supposed $10 million price tag for the project. Exactly what would $10 million get you in terms of a 'boutique hotel' and condos? During the recent overhaul of our local casino, the construction of a high-end steakhouse--which was actually merely the renovation of an existing space--exceeded $1 million alone. The craptastic Hamilton City Centre cost nearly $100 million to build over 15 years ago...makes me wonder if Harry is sketching out his financials on those napkins too.

[raisethehammer]

so that used to be a KFC eh?? Wow. I wonder if he owns any adjacent buildings?

[ryan_mcgreal]

I have yet to see any evidence that he is a bad businessperson

His three signature projects - the Candy Factory, 1KW and the Sapphire - were all business failures for him. Then he wasn't able to pull together the financing for the Connaught, which I would also consider a business failure. Granted, the Candy Factory and 1KW survived and were arguably successes in architecture and urbanism, if not in business.

Stinson certainly seems to have good instincts when it comes to the development itself, and in the long run I think that's what really matters.

or a bad person.

I agree with you here. I've seen no evidence that he is anything but sincere in his desire to achieve success as a developer in Hamilton. I hope for his sake and ours that he can get this boutique project under his belt and start building the trust he will need to tackle his grander vision.

[raisethehammer]

His three signature projects - the Candy Factory, 1KW and the Sapphire - were all business failures for him. Then he wasn't able to pull together the financing for the Connaught, which I would also consider a business failure. Granted, the Candy Factory and 1KW survived and were arguably successes in architecture and urbanism, if not in business.

Stinson certainly seems to have good instincts when it comes to the development itself, and in the long run I think that's what really matters.



I agree with you here. I've seen no evidence that he is anything but sincere in his desire to achieve success as a developer in Hamilton. I hope for his sake and ours that he can get this boutique project under his belt and start building the trust he will need to tackle his grander vision.


good point.
He needs to learn how to stay on board when his projects succeed. Lol.
Several people made a ton of money off of Candy Factory and 1KW. The media, of course, only focuses on Mirvish.
1KW is the best development in TO in my opinion.

$10 million for a boutique hotel/condo doesn't sound out of line considering the tiny size of the property.
Comparing it to City Centre is ridiculous.
I wonder how he would work parking into the site. It's not like he's got room for a parking drop-off on John St. That building seems to be hemmed in on all sides.

Has anyone checked out the apartments in the Foster Building yet??

[SteelTown]

The $10 million figure I'd suspect is the up front cost he'll have to put into the project the rest of the money probably from condo sales to build the building.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote
The $10 million figure I'd suspect is the up front cost he'll have to put into the project the rest of the money probably from condo sales to build the building.

So perhaps not that ridiculous a suggestion on my part after all. Look, I'm not coming out and saying this as a swipe at Stinson--the numbers simply do not compute. If you don't like my use of the City Centre example--perhaps refer back to the fact that it cost over $1 million to build a well-appointed steakhouse in an existing hotel. Installling soft surfaces and furnishings alone can be astronomically expensive--let alone demolition costs and construction on a small footprint (which can actually be more expensive, depending on the site).

As for the boutique hotel concept--it may be that there is a market in Hamilton for one--I have no idea. What I have yet to see is anyone else seize on the opportunity--part of me believes that Stinson has decided that there is a market for one--and that's that...a grand gesture if you will without due dilligence.

[rousseau]

As mentioned by someone else on this thread, entrepreneurs come in many different flavours. Someone like Stinson sets himself up for ridicule, and he deserves it. But if he succeeds, then bully for him. One King West was a great project, no question.

People like Stinson are what keep the peanut gallery busy. And hey, I like peanuts sometimes. "Sometimes" is the operative word here, though.

[adam]

I am sorry to hear you see downtown revitalization as trivial as a peanut gallery.

[markbarbera]

Just a quick reminder back to the Spec article that included the infamous Stinson napkin quote. Here is the exerpt from the interview:

To pass muster with the owners, Stinson said, any new offer from him will have to include proof of substantial outside financing.

"I appreciate that, and I wouldn't have the nerve to show up and say, 'Here, I've got another napkin with some ideas written on it.' "

The entire article can be found here (http://www.thespec.com/article/411325)

No word on whether the napkins had any stains from peanut shells, which obviously would contribute to the project's failure...

[rousseau]

I am sorry to hear you see downtown revitalization as trivial as a peanut gallery.
You don't understand the concept. Downtown revitalization is the show. Actually, anything can be the show. We're the audience. We heckle. It can be fun. If it hurts the actors' feelings then they give up their dreams of theatrical glory and become accountants. Everyone wins.

You and I and everyone west of Mississauga know that an 100-storey tower is not going to get built on the Connaught site. I won't say "never," because at some point in the grand scheme of things pigs will most likely grow wings and start flying--never say "never," as they say. Still, what would you rather have: no 100-storey tower and no fun, or no 100-storey tower and someone like Harry Stinson to mock?

Sigh...we've lost touch with our British roots, and have become earnest bores like the Americans. Actually, Canadians were always probably earnest bores, since so many of us back in the day were Scottish. I'm a Russian-Mennonite, so believe me, I know about earnest boredom. In any case, it's clear you need to be reminded that mockery is a noble sport going back to Swift. Furthermore, any other city in Canada should be so lucky to have a character like Stinson show up on their doorstep!

[adam]

Stinson clearly stated in his interview that he is not a quitter, and he has the track record to back it up.

Downtown Hamilton is in a depressed state with little momentum and we need people like him who are persistent (or just stubborn!) , because whatever project is proposed is going to come up against a lot roadblocks and naysayers and those who don't want anything to change.

[Jon Dalton]

Fact remains that he got shit done elsewhere despite the projects having tanked financially. The economic spinoffs from his past failures (or successes however you want to look at it) are lasting even though the investors lost money. Unfortunately the more times he does this, the less anyone will give him a chance.

Great cities were built because people made money doing it, that's the hard fact of downtown renewal. When people lose money but the project goes on to benefit others, that's an accident - not one we should count on happening here.

I think he should build a 5 or 6 storey streetfront on the land he owns and have a restaurant / bar at ground level. We know he can at least handle that. Then the top floors will be prestige appartments which he can offload to some management company. If there was a taller rooftop patio that would stick it to London Tap House, well that would just be ridiculous.

[raisethehammer]

?? ridiculous? I'd love a taller rooftop patio around there.

[Jon Dalton]

Sorry, I use ridiculous to refer to good things. London Tap House had potential but it's crazy that they don't only have no taps up there, but you can't bring a pint from the main floor where the taps while existant are terrible. And you have to pay nightclub cover just to get on the roof. That place needs to be shown.

[raisethehammer]

I've never had to pay to get on the rooftop.
Late at night?? I've been for lunch and dinner.

[matt602]

I had a meal on the roof this week. It was great and I didn't need to pay any kind of cover. I can't wait to return for a few more drinks.

[raisethehammer]

late night weekends a lot of places charge to get in.
Virtually all of Hess Village does this.

[adam]

The Tap House has done some great things for the area. I don't think it was ever meant to be a Tap house a la London England anyway! (The London in the name is for London Ontario after the first tap house they opened)

[thistleclub]

Stinson clearly stated in his interview that he is not a quitter, and he has the track record to back it up.

Abso-tively. Noticed that his screen saver reads "The Connaught Towers". I like to think that that's no typo.

Also, is London Tap's menu any better since its opening month? Last time I went it I found it to be a pretentious mess.

[matt602]

Nope, it's still severely lacking. Only 3 things on the entire menu could be considered real food, the others were just pub grub.

[PlatinumEstates]

Does anyone here know how to get in touch with harry stinson or his company?

[matt602]

Drop by his office on John St. North? I just saw him there today, he's always sitting there. He's a friendly guy, you should be able to get some time with him if you stop in.

[raisethehammer]

where on John North??

[flar]

^the old Liaison College?

[PlatinumEstates]

Drop by his office on John St. North? I just saw him there today, he's always sitting there. He's a friendly guy, you should be able to get some time with him if you stop in.

Sorry, I'm in Toronto. Would you be able to grab a contact phone number, or email for me? Thanks in advance.

My Contacts are:

email: jkua@platinumestates.ca

Thanks again.

[FairHamilton]

^the old Liaison College?

That's what I thought too. Someone has their North and South mixed up :)

[markbarbera]

Try calling his office 905-546-8400

[DC83]

He was in the Liason office yesterday when I walked by around 4pm'ish. I'm sure he's there every day.
He was in the lil side part (closest to LTH) looking over some blueprints.

[matt602]

Haha yah. It's *barely* John South. My mistake.

[WhipperSnapper]

I have yet to see any evidence that he is a bad businessperson or a bad person.


You've got to be joking. Toronto and his failure to tap into the city's unsatiable boom numerous times is evidence enough he sucks at business beyond the sales. Talk to anyone in the field and/or dealt with him and they will say he's not exactly a nice guy either. His prodigy on the other hand ...

Stinson is hardly entrepreneurial. They were dozens of successfully completed conversions before the Candy Factory and hundreds of condo hotel units opened before One King (although the structure of One King differed slightly which goes back to being a bad in business)

Several people made a ton of money off of Candy Factory and 1KW.

Everyone lost with One King and probably too with the Candy Factory if he wasn't booted off the team early on.


It's good to see him starting small which does give hope that this project may actually get built however, if starts tinkering, its fate won't be any different than the 100 storey delusion

[raisethehammer]

good lookin, I think we got the point the first 15 times you posted that exact message.
thanks for posting it yet again.

[BCTed]

good lookin, I think we got the point the first 15 times you posted that exact message.
thanks for posting it yet again.

Hmmm... well, you keep posting that One King West made a lot of people a lot of money. I think it's fair to keep replying to you if you keep posting it.

[raisethehammer]

is BC Ted, goodlookin?? I doubt it...in every sense. lol.

[BCTed]

is BC Ted, goodlookin?? I doubt it...in every sense. lol.

I am definitely good looking. I am also very charming and highly intelligent.

Getting back to the point of discussion, it is pretty much common knowledge that lots of people have lost lots of money because of Harry Stinson --- I have certainly posted a number of links that discuss examples of such people. On at least two occasions, you have made the claim that a lot of people have made a lot of money on One King West. Who are these people?