[O-tacular]

I know this is slightly OT but in a way it is pertinent to a forum concerned with urban planning and city life. I was just watching the news tonight and heard that new estimates place Aberta's grizzly population at 230 outside national parks. Funny, just a couple years ago the provincial gov't estimated we had 500. And before that 1000. HAving followed this story for the past couple years this disheartens me greatly as it seems like the province will sit on its hands to gather numbers right until it is too late to do anything about it. They arte still sitting complacently by, refusing to list the species as endangered until they have the 2008 DNA identification results. Seems to me that with as few as a couple hundred left they should be getting off their asses and doing something right now! With things moving as slowly as they are with the new land use framework, and oil projects seemingly taking precedence over anything else, does anyone else worry that they might be completely exterpated from this province in the next 20 years?

I've already written Ted Moron (that was honestly a typo but I decided to keep it:jester: ) only to have some half hearted apology written back. Seems to me that as a province of people who value our natural surroundings, we should be able to pressure this constipated conservative government into addressing this issue before it's too late.

[Boris2k7]

Being such large predators, it is probably natural that they have large ranges and few numbers. However, having only a couple hundred left is quite troubling. We should seriously be looking at measures to limit the contact of humans with these animals as well as the spread of development in environmentally sensitive areas. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that a species went extinct in North America.

[Coldrsx]

at least they didn't have a season this year for them... but yes overall it is a sad situation that needs more political attention.

[Calgarian]

How many are left in the parks?

[WeavedWeb]

I can't stand the neglect to Grizzly Bears in this province (actually, all bears in this country). It is especially troubling since they are all killed in innocence, i.e., train, hunted on First Nations Reservations, etc. I also hate when they kill the Grizzly Bears even if they attacked someone - it's not like it's their fault that some fresh living food walked into their habitat.

Another despicable downfall of the Stelmach government.

[Greco Roman]

Another despicable downfall of the Stelmach government.

How can you blame the Stelmach government for this? These actions have been around for centuries, and will continue to be here no matter what political party is in power. This is the sad reality of being human beings; the largest parasites planet Earth has ever experienced.

[O-tacular]

Well JohnnyC I seem to remember the Banff population being at somewhere around 100 individuals. As for Jasper I'm not sure. In any case the situation is dire. If any of you are really concerned write Rob Renner (the environment minister) or Ted Morton (Sustainable Resources). This is a ludicrous case of neglect by our government. The species has not even been listed as endangered yet!

One last interesting factoid: Grizzlies represent the top of the food chain. Carnivores are always the first to suffer but they act as a type of barometer for the rest of the ecosystem. IF they are not doing well it indicates there being greater problems that are far wider in scope.

[Greco Roman]

Polar Bears are the largest land carnivores on Earth, and they are disappearing very quickly as well. Global warming and over hunting are the largest factors against this majestic animal.

[O-tacular]

That is true also. OVerhunting though? Really? I thought they were quite protected. In any case we can also thank our government for ignoring their plight through global warming.

[tdurden5573]

Ive been a back country skier/motorbiker in that area for 30 years, seen lots of black bears and deer, but now there are elk, moose and grizlies. It appears that all the development out west of Sundre is pushing the bears further east (thats my best guess). Last year i rode my trail bike waay into the back country, I saw extreame clear cut logging, heavy mining and oil and gas services (roads, pipelines, pumpers) in places that were prestine 10 years ago.

Im not anti-development (or I wouldnt obsessivly follow this forum), but we are starting to see the tip of our reckless exploitation of our natural areas. What ever happened to selective logging?

[O-tacular]

That's an interesting assessment. I wonder how many more conflicts there will be with bears as Calgary continues its westward expansion. Next year my GF's family is moving to post hill (fopr those who don't know where that is follow 17th all the way west past Springbank to the end). It's located in a Spruce grove which was it's selling feature but ironically developments outside the official protected area have now clear cut the trees. What a surprise.

[O-tacular]

Oh, one more unrelated piece of development news... Encana is currently making a case to drill gas wells in a protected reserve in CFB Suffield. IT was interesting to read that it boasts rare species of insects such as scorpions and small camel spiders. Hopefully the environmentalists win this case. I mean, aren't nature preserves set aside specifically to, you know, PRESERVE the natural environment. Only in this bullshit province is nothing beyond the reach of industry. :hell:

[freeweed]

Oh, one more unrelated piece of development news... Encana is currently making a case to drill gas wells in a protected reserve in CFB Suffield. IT was interesting to read that it boasts rare species of insects such as scorpions and small camel spiders. Hopefully the environmentalists win this case. I mean, aren't nature preserves set aside specifically to, you know, PRESERVE the natural environment. Only in this bullshit province is nothing beyond the reach of industry. :hell:

Yet it's on a military base... not exactly a nature preserve throughout its life.

[lubicon]

Oh, one more unrelated piece of development news... Encana is currently making a case to drill gas wells in a protected reserve in CFB Suffield. IT was interesting to read that it boasts rare species of insects such as scorpions and small camel spiders. Hopefully the environmentalists win this case. I mean, aren't nature preserves set aside specifically to, you know, PRESERVE the natural environment. Only in this bullshit province is nothing beyond the reach of industry. :hell:

They have been drilling (and producing) in this area for many years. These are shallow, sweet gas wells and the environmental footprint is very small so it is a non issue for me. Encana was instrumental in setting up this environmental area in the first place.

I have worked on wells within the Suffield Base. The wellheads are actually set below ground level in a large hole covered by steel grates that allow for vehicles (including tanks) to travel overtop of them, and also offer protection from pretty much everything short of a direct hit by an artillery shell. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of wells on the base, and there has NEVER been a case of damage to one due to military activity.

Interesting aside. Pronghorns (antelope) inhabit this area and the little buggers are pretty smart. They know they are safe from hunters if they are on the base so you will see tons of them running around on the base and right across the fence you'd be hard pressed to see any. They have become so used to military activity that apparently they do not even bother to stop their mating habits when a convoy of trucks, tanks etc come along.

[freeweed]

Suffield also has a pretty serious chemical weapons contamination issue, from what I recall hearing from friends in the DoD. Never mind the artillery range, I'm sure that's great for the local antelope. Environmental preserve, indeed. :rolleyes:

[CanadianCentaur]

There's still grizzly bears and black bears roaming up as far north as the Grande Prairie area. Human-bear encounters aren't that uncommon in the area between GP and Grande Cache. This is happening as that area's being increasingly clear cut and razed to make way for oil and gas drilling, in addition to the forestry industry. I'd bet that the bear population's already declining quite a bit there. There's still a number of deer, elk, moose and a few caribou there, and the only other natural predators which hunt these animals are wolves, coyotes and wolverines. But I'd safely bet that these animals (except maybe coyotes - they're pretty damn smart and adaptable) are also in decline, thanks to human development/interference on the ecosystem.

Bears have been known to go right into GP, often through Muskoseepi Park along Bear Creek in the city, usually black bears, but I wouldn't be surprised if grizzlies have been sighted there as well. I see bear warning signs set up in that park. Grizzlies and black bears have also been seen going after livestock in farms in the GP area, too.

[Daver]

I know this is slightly OT but in a way it is pertinent to a forum concerned with urban planning and city life. I was just watching the news tonight and heard that new estimates place Aberta's grizzly population at 230 outside national parks. Funny, just a couple years ago the provincial gov't estimated we had 500. And before that 1000. HAving followed this story for the past couple years this disheartens me greatly as it seems like the province will sit on its hands to gather numbers right until it is too late to do anything about it. They arte still sitting complacently by, refusing to list the species as endangered until they have the 2008 DNA identification results. Seems to me that with as few as a couple hundred left they should be getting off their asses and doing something right now! With things moving as slowly as they are with the new land use framework, and oil projects seemingly taking precedence over anything else, does anyone else worry that they might be completely exterpated from this province in the next 20 years?

I've already written Ted Moron (that was honestly a typo but I decided to keep it:jester: ) only to have some half hearted apology written back. Seems to me that as a province of people who value our natural surroundings, we should be able to pressure this constipated conservative government into addressing this issue before it's too late.


I say kill the bear..It doesn't have a natural place or purpose in the eco system. It's just a dangerous herbi/carni and simply doesn't fit, keep the number reduced but not eliminated to protect "valued human life" I lost a son 6 years ago near Sundre for "simply enjoying nature" they need to be controlled! When your son is on the ground and the bear is tearing and ripping at him, with myself injured helplessly watching him die... trust me there is no place on Earth for this type of animal.

point to comment...When you get chewd on simply for walking through nature and all it has for YOU only then can you pipe up!

[Daver]

Polar Bears are the largest land carnivores on Earth, and they are disappearing very quickly as well. Global warming and over hunting are the largest factors against this majestic animal.

Oh please!...tree hugger

[O-tacular]

Before I retort to some of the comments above, allow me to first post this article.

Encana Ignores CFB Suffield Rules and Damages Sensitive Wetlands at Suffield
Alberta Wilderness Association

News Release: March 7, 2007

Encana failed to follow the rules of Canadian Forces Base Suffield for protection of wetlands while drilling, a coalition of environmental groups has learned. The company drilled a well in a known wetland near the federally protected Suffield National Wildlife Area, and refused to remove it until given an ultimatum by the Base. The groups are asking the federal government to prohibit all new industrial activities in the Suffield National Wildlife Area.

"Greed seems to exceed common sense and the rules with these guys," says Cliff Wallis, Past-President of Alberta Wilderness Association. "Not only did they drill a well where they shouldn't, they argued to keep it in place. There seems to be an overblown sense of entitlement on the part of this industry giant which does not bode well for their proposed drilling in the National Wildlife Area." EnCana is proposing to drill up to 1275 wells as part of a shallow gas infill program in the Suffield National Wildlife Area.

Documents received through the Access to Information Act reveal that the well was drilled in a wetland clearly identified on maps in Nishomoto Flats at 7-27-17-5 W4 in October 2004. The industry had previously been informed of the Base's expectations related to protection of wetlands. The Base Commander, upon learning of the infraction, immediately requested the removal of the well, which was not complete or producing at the time; but EnCana took no action. The Suffield Environmental Advisory

Committee, composed of representatives from the Alberta Energy and Utilities Board, Alberta Environment, and the Canadian Wildlife Service also advised in May 2005, after visiting the site, that the well should be removed.

The Base issued three formal written directives and made several verbal requests to remove the well over 11 months, all which went unheeded. Finally, officials from the Department of National Defence told EnCana to remove the well by the end of September 2005 or be barred from the Base. The company argued that removing the well would represent the loss of a valuable asset and a waste of the resource. However, the Base refused to back down out of concern for the impacts of drilling, pipeline installation, operations and reclamation activities on the wetland. On the eve of the deadline, EnCana finally removed the well.

Federal policy on wetlands stipulates no net loss of wetland function, which means zero industrial activity in wetlands on federal land. Provincial guidelines require a minimum setback of 100 m from wetlands in the grassland region. "Wetlands like this are prime hotspots for at-risk species," says Julie Gelfand, President of Nature Canada. "But this potential breeding ground has been compromised by EnCana's lack of corporate environmental responsibility."

"EnCana has shown a cavalier and insensitive attitude towards these biologically productive habitats," says Dawn Dickinson of the Grasslands Naturalists. "This kind of attitude inspires no confidence in the corporation's declared commitment to environmental protection. The Base Commander is to be commended for standing firm behind his ultimatum to EnCana to remove the well from the wetlands. The federal government should just say no to EnCana's plan for the National Wildlife Area."

In the documents EnCana argued it only had to comply with Federal and Provincial Statutes and their contract rights and that the Base does not have the authority to deny access due to damaging environmental impacts. However the Commander of the Army made it clear that individual Base Commanders are accountable for the environment on their Base. A February 2005 DND Order/Directive states, "Degradation needs to be properly assessed, monitored and remediated. All must comply with federal, provincial and local legislations. Failure cannot be entertained."

The Suffield National Wildlife Area is a 458 km2 protected area located inside the 2690 km2 Canadian Forces Base near Medicine Hat, Alberta. The Suffield National Wildlife Area is an internationally significant grassland encompassing fragile sand dunes and sand plains. It provides secure habitat for more than 1100 native prairie species, including 13 federal Species at Risk and 78 provincially listed "at risk" species.

[O-tacular]

Yet it's on a military base... not exactly a nature preserve throughout its life.



True, however the base commander is still held accoutnable for the environment surrounding the base (as was used as grounds for CFB Suffield's commander in chief to force Encana to stop drilling within an off limits wetland.

They have been drilling (and producing) in this area for many years. These are shallow, sweet gas wells and the environmental footprint is very small so it is a non issue for me. Encana was instrumental in setting up this environmental area in the first place.


Yes because the recent leak from one of the wells was of no concern at all right? Not to mention the oil spill (not Encana's I know) that killed several hundred birds there. I believe they have somewhere over 1200 old ones in the area. Which makes oyu question why they need to drill more int he first place, if they already have access to the gas in the area.

I say kill the bear..It doesn't have a natural place or purpose in the eco system. It's just a dangerous herbi/carni and simply doesn't fit, keep the number reduced but not eliminated to protect "valued human life"

point to comment...When you get chewd on simply for walking through nature and all it has for YOU only then can you pipe up!


Do I even really need to make an argument against this one? Where to start... oh, how about the fact that the grizzly is the apex predator of the ecosystem and also an index for the general health of the entire system. Oh, and if you don;t want to get "chewd" on by one of them there varmits you simply have to follow the rules of campsites as well as general bear awareness (ie don't leave out attractants etc...) While we're at it let's just go back to the 1800's and exterminate every other predator that could potentially pose a threat to humans so that we can safely enjoy the natural wasteland we created.

[Daver]

True, however the base commander is still held accoutnable for the environment surrounding the base (as was used as grounds for CFB Suffield's commander in chief to force Encana to stop drilling within an off limits wetland.



Yes because the recent leak from one of the wells was of no concern at all right? Not to mention the oil spill (not Encana's I know) that killed several hundred birds there. I believe they have somewhere over 1200 old ones in the area. Which makes oyu question why they need to drill more int he first place, if they already have access to the gas in the area.



Do I even really need to make an argument against this one? Where to start... oh, how about the fact that the grizzly is the apex predator of the ecosystem and also an index for the general health of the entire system. Oh, and if you don;t want to get "chewd" on by one of them there varmits you simply have to follow the rules of campsites as well as general bear awareness (ie don't leave out attractants etc...) While we're at it let's just go back to the 1800's and exterminate every other predator that could potentially pose a threat to humans so that we can safely enjoy the natural wasteland we created.

Wastelands that "WE" created, what on Earth are you talking about. You're comments tell me that you have never been out in nature period! don't tell me about "Bear" awareness "I teach it" so others don't get hurt!

All I can say is that yur probably some guy sitting in yur ivory tower in Calgary (city person) making some point about the environment who has little or no experiance regarding nature, which is easy. If you live it, then we can talk otherwise shut up, I don't need some tree huggin city liberal supporter to tell me that the bears that kill my son have more rights than he does (no city person used camp sites involved). In terms of evolution and Biblical matters, man has "dominated" over the beasts of the Earth. How the hell can you justifly anything different....Mr. God!
I'm not waisting anymore time on you!
Your comments are stupid and unfounded!

[Boris2k7]

The bear did a half-assed job if it only got your son and left you alive... :)

[Daver]

The bear did a half-assed job if it only got your son and left you alive... :)

thanks for that, It makes me feel better (not). I guess I have to remember how many insensitive liberal asses are on this site! What the hell is wrong with you!

For christ's sake

[Boris2k7]

A bit of bad humour at your expense, but it really just means that you aren't worth taking seriously. Whether your circumstances have any truth to them or not, your extremist viewpoints are irrelevant and not really worth addressing. If you are going to appeal to the heart-bleeders in the crowd, you also have to assume that anyone gives a shit. Invoking religion also doesn't help out your argument.

[Daver]

A bit of bad humour at your expense, but it really just means that you aren't worth taking seriously. Whether your circumstances have any truth to them or not, your extremist viewpoints are irrelevant and not really worth addressing. If you are going to appeal to the heart-bleeders in the crowd, you also have to assume that anyone gives a shit. Invoking religion also doesn't help out your argument.

And guess what....the trueth is there, but being liberal , you can understand that! no religion was brought into it and if you think it did then you didn't "READ" properly, are you drunk? At any rate the bear insident actually did happen and I am over it but your liberal ranting and insensitve comments don't really help me, but I can't expect you to understand that. Which I can deal with. I realize no-one gives a shit on this forum as I don't about the bears Where my point originally stands so shut up! :D

Keep yur nose out of it, because I wasn't talking to you anyway!

[Boris2k7]

And guess what....the trueth is there, but being liberal , you can understand that! no religion was brought into it and if you think it did then you didn't "READ" properly, are you drunk?

No, but maybe you are...

In terms of evolution and Biblical matters, man has "dominated" over the beasts of the Earth. How the hell can you justifly anything different....Mr. God!

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/7088/mad0244sh1.gif

[Daver]

No, but maybe you are...



http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/7088/mad0244sh1.gif

there are those that think the way you do and I still teach them in my course, so they can be safe in the wilds, how ever they think. The point is everyone can and has the right to be safe. i'm a hunter and have been for many years and have delt with many bear occurances. Hopefully my experiances do help

[Daver]

A bit of bad humour at your expense, but it really just means that you aren't worth taking seriously. Whether your circumstances have any truth to them or not, your extremist viewpoints are irrelevant and not really worth addressing. If you are going to appeal to the heart-bleeders in the crowd, you also have to assume that anyone gives a shit. Invoking religion also doesn't help out your argument.

The word"liberal" isn't necessarily political ,but a way of thinking
No extremist issues intended

[freeweed]

In terms of evolution and Biblical matters, man has "dominated" over the beasts of the Earth.

:jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester:

:jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester:

*gasp*

:jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester:

*choke* *wheeze*

:jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester:

For the record: city-born, town-and-city-raised, spent my childhood in bear country, currently spend most of my non-working, non-sleeping hours in bear country. Have had hundreds of encounters with bears, never once been attacked.

Have yet to think "wow, 30,000 people die in car accidents every year, but 1 person dies every 3 years by bears, LET'S FUCKING KILL THEM ALL!!!!!!!!!!1ONE!!!! IT'S THE BEARS THAT ARE THE REAL PROBLEM IN THE WORLD!!!!!!ELEVEN!!".

Let the bears pay the bear tax. I pay the Homer tax. (If you don't get the reference, you're ineligible to comment further)

[O-tacular]

Wastelands that "WE" created, what on Earth are you talking about. You're comments tell me that you have never been out in nature period! don't tell me about "Bear" awareness "I teach it" so others don't get hurt!

All I can say is that yur probably some guy sitting in yur ivory tower in Calgary (city person) making some point about the environment who has little or no experiance regarding nature, which is easy. If you live it, then we can talk otherwise shut up, I don't need some tree huggin city liberal supporter to tell me that the bears that kill my son have more rights than he does (no city person used camp sites involved). In terms of evolution and Biblical matters, man has "dominated" over the beasts of the Earth. How the hell can you justifly anything different....Mr. God!
I'm not waisting anymore time on you!
Your comments are stupid and unfounded!


As per your first comment, I was being sarcastic obviously. My point was that if we all thought as you do there would be no natural ecosystem worth mentioning as most animals could potentially harm humans and should thus by your logic be wiped out for our protection. Interesting statistic regarding that, more people are killed every year by donkeys than by bears or sharks or any other major predator combined.

As per your son, I'm sorry to hear that (honestly). That is tragic and sad and not worth making fun of (Boris, freeweed: I'm on your side here but that is a little insensitive).

Daver: obviously you hold different viewpoints than I do, but that doesn't give you the right to declare that anyone living in the city can't appreciate "true" nature. I'm just as much of an Albertan as you are, and the land belongs to me as much as it does to you. Your opinions and beliefs aren;t worth more than mine or anybody else's.

And your son dying is horrible, but you can't hold an entire species accountable for a random and tragic accident.

[Xelebes]

This thread has gone a bit too far and run its course. Going to have to say that while Daver's first post in this thread was a little bit from left-field, it does not deserve to be lampooned with such insensitivity.

Thread closed.