[crhayes]

We currently have separate threads for LRT, one-way streets, highways, and other infrastructure related issues; however we do not have a thread to tie them all together and talk about solutions as a community.

That is why I am starting this thread; so we as a community can discuss our ideas about how to fix the infrastructure downtown.

First I will say something that just came to mind about Main and King; I agree that they should be converted to two way streets, but from the cities perspective there is something to be said about being able to drive east/west through the city in a timely fashion. It especially becomes difficult because we have less than a handful of streets that run east/west through the entire city.

That is when I started looking at the map for solutions.

There is a train track that runs east/west just north of Barton. Does anyone know if this is heavily used? If not it could potentially be turned into Parkway similar to the Link, allowing efficient transportation across the city while allowing Main and King to be turned to two way streets.

Does anyone else have any ideas?

Edit: I also seem to have spelled Infrastructure incorrectly, lol; is there anyway a mod could fix this? Thanks.

[coalminecanary]

I disagree that we are stretched out for east-west links. Burlington, Barton, Cannon, Wilson, Main, King are all high volume streets. There are more high volume streets than low volume ones!

[raisethehammer]

the rail tracks are VERY heavily used.
And no we don't need King/Main to drive through the city in a 'timely fashion'.
We have 32 lanes of east/west traffic within the 2km swath from Aberdeen to Burlington St.
My suggestions would be to convert them to two-ways, plant street trees, add bike lanes on Wilson/York/Cannon/Charlton/Herkimer. LRT lanes on King/Main. Street parking everywhere else and NO timed lights.

[crhayes]

I disagree that we are stretched out for east-west links. Burlington, Barton, Cannon, Wilson, Main, King are all high volume streets. There are more high volume streets than low volume ones!

I mean streets that run all the way East, as in to at least Centennial. That discounts Cannon and Wilson, leaving pretty much Main, King, Barton and Burlington street (well, it at least makes it to the Red Hill).

the rail tracks are VERY heavily used.
And no we don't need King/Main to drive through the city in a 'timely fashion'.
We have 32 lanes of east/west traffic within the 2km swath from Aberdeen to Burlington St.
My suggestions would be to convert them to two-ways, plant street trees, add bike lanes on Wilson/York/Cannon/Charlton/Herkimer. LRT lanes on King/Main. Street parking everywhere else and NO timed lights.

There are other streets you can take, but I was thinking more along the lines of connecting to the 403 on west end and the QEW/Red Hill on the east end.

It's unfortunate, in that regard, that the train tracks are used.

[adam]

The more roads you build, the more cars that will fill them: a new road enables people to live even further away from where they work. If we want to solve the traffic problem with a growing population and our current model of single-occupancy vehicles, the only solution is to encourage people to move closer to where they work.

[highwater]

First I will say something that just came to mind about Main and King; I agree that they should be converted to two way streets, but from the cities perspective there is something to be said about being able to drive east/west through the city in a timely fashion.

I think we need to change our whole mindset about what 'timely' is. We are used to getting through the downtown at astonishing speeds. I live in Westdale and travel to Sherman frequently. On average it takes me 12 minutes! One time I made it in 9! And no, I'm not exceeding the speed limit, just riding the wave. As someone who used to live in Toronto, I can tell you that this is most emphatically NOT a good thing. This is the sign of an unhealthy downtown. A downtown unfettered by traffic is a downtown unfettered by commerce and other human interactions.

[crhayes]

The more roads you build, the more cars that will fill them: a new road enables people to live even further away from where they work. If we want to solve the traffic problem with a growing population and our current model of single-occupancy vehicles, the only solution is to encourage people to move closer to where they work.

Well this is the way I see it. People are hard to change; there are going to be single motorists driving cars for a LONG time to come. So, you can either try and promote living close to where you work, which may or may not work, or you can accept the fact that people love their cars and build to accommodate.

As far as I see, as long as the economy is good enough for people to afford their own cars they will do so rather than taking public transit. Especially here, our transit system is so far behind compared to many other built-up cities.

[crhayes]

I think we need to change our whole mindset about what 'timely' is. We are used to getting through the downtown at astonishing speeds. I live in Westdale and travel to Sherman frequently. On average it takes me 12 minutes! One time I made it in 9! And no, I'm not exceeding the speed limit, just riding the wave. As someone who used to live in Toronto, I can tell you that this is most emphatically NOT a good thing. This is the sign of an unhealthy downtown. A downtown unfettered by traffic is a downtown unfettered by commerce and other human interactions.

Yeah that is why I am saying do create a 'freeway' farther north in the city, and not right through the core (aka Main and King).

I understand that slowing people down and having them drive through downtown is beneficial economically; but realistically there are a lot of people who just want to get from west to east and vice versa quickly are not going to care about what businesses are on the way. That is why I am saying make King/Main two way, and create a road somewhere else for people to blaze across the city.

Regardless of how it is set up, you are going to have people who are driving through downtown and are open to stopping to shop, and you will have people who will never stop and shop. Get those people that are not interested in shopping off King and Main and put them on a freeway somewhere else downtown - heck, it would make it easier for those people that actually want to drive through downtown.

[raisethehammer]

Well this is the way I see it. People are hard to change; there are going to be single motorists driving cars for a LONG time to come. So, you can either try and promote living close to where you work, which may or may not work, or you can accept the fact that people love their cars and build to accommodate.

As far as I see, as long as the economy is good enough for people to afford their own cars they will do so rather than taking public transit. Especially here, our transit system is so far behind compared to many other built-up cities.

that's the completely wrong approach.
LRT can and will get some of those drivers out of their cars.
Two-way conversions, less lanes and no timed lights would also get some more drivers out of their cars.
People aren't changing in our city because there is no reason to. The entire system is set up to encourage them to continue flying through the city in a single-occupancy vehicle.
Not all will change, but some will. Enough will to make a big difference in how our city functions.
To throw in the towel and proclaim that downtown will never roar back to life because we're going to let the SOV's run the show is the wrong approach.

[adam]

Well this is the way I see it. People are hard to change; there are going to be single motorists driving cars for a LONG time to come. So, you can either try and promote living close to where you work, which may or may not work, or you can accept the fact that people love their cars and build to accommodate.

As far as I see, as long as the economy is good enough for people to afford their own cars they will do so rather than taking public transit. Especially here, our transit system is so far behind compared to many other built-up cities.

If we build more roads to accomodate, it will be neverending. Consider this: If suddenly it takes 20 minutes to go from Stoney Creek to Oakville, the commute will be feasible for more people. The end result is more cars on the road. Then in a few years when traffic becomes unbearable, you have to build another highway (again)

My question to you is this.. should we make it easier to drive farther distances given that our current model has been proven to be unsustainable?

[crhayes]

If we build more roads to accomodate, it will be neverending. Consider this: If suddenly it takes 20 minutes to go from Stoney Creek to Oakville, the commute will be feasible for more people. The end result is more cars on the road. Then in a few years when traffic becomes unbearable, you have to build another highway (again)

My question to you is this.. should we make it easier to drive farther distances given that our current model has been proven to be unsustainable?

I definitely see where you guys are coming from. I still think that large amounts of vehicles are still going to be a problem for at least another 50-100 years though.

$50-billion in infrastructure for 25 years....and how much of an impact is it REALLY going to have? Yes, the $1.1 billion for the E/W LRT line will make a difference, but my feeling is that it will be small. So how many more billions and billions will we have to spend before public transit is actually an attractive option.

And I also feel it depends on how it is implemented. If they do their best to create a dedicated line for LRT it will be extremely beneficial. I think the worst thing they could do is tie the line into normal traffic (aka share lanes with cars) and allow the LRT trains to easily get stuck in traffic jams.

Don't get me wrong though, I actually agree with you guys :)

[adam]

I disagree with you, and that's okay.

[crhayes]

I disagree with you, and that's okay.

I agree that LRT would entice more people to take public transit, but I disagree that turning Main and King two way and removing the light timing (although I think it is a good idea) will convert people to public transit.

People get on the DVP in Toronto everyday knowing that a traffic jam is imminent. People take the QEW through St. Kitts or the 403 through Burlington at rush hour knowing that there is most likely going to be a traffic jam.

Even if people know that a street is going to be fairly slow, they will likely still drive and stick it out. Hell, the way its set up now making those changes to King/Main will make the buses slower as well.

P.S. Thats why changes are so slow, cause everyone has their own opinion :P

[omro]

As far as I see it, in Hamilton, the car is king.

Has anyone considered the impact of electric cars when we finally all do end up having to have them instead of ones powered by fossil fuels? Electric cars tend to be slower, quieter and do not produce any of the pollution in their wake. (The pollution caused by the powerplants that will be used to charge up their batteries is a topic for a separate discussion ;) )

If everyone suddenly were forced to drive electric cars, the main issue would then be congestion.

Until then... Hopefully a well implemented LRT, interlinked with decent Park 'n' Ride schemes, will reduce the car traffic on the roads downtown and reduce many of the issues, such as pollution, noise, traffic congestion and traffic speed, etc.

[omro]

P.S. Thats why changes are so slow, cause everyone has their own opinion :P

Well... dictators are bad - generally - though I'd make a great one ;)

[raisethehammer]

me too.

[crhayes]

me too.

Lol oh shiet, everyone would be driving down Main at 10km/h!!

Scratch that, cars would be abolished altogether! :P

[FairHamilton]

me too.

We all know you are generally bad.

[raisethehammer]

Lol.... 10km on Main St?? c'mon that's not accurate.
There would be NO MORE Main St!! I'd turn it into an LRT/pedestrian/cycling corridor with trees, public fountains, play areas, cafe kiosks....like a bigger version of the Portland Parks Blocks.
Try 0km an hour! haha.

[adam]

Think I'm getting one of these http://www.igoelectric.com/model_gt2.html

[raisethehammer]

yea, I see tons of those around.

[the dude]

I still think that large amounts of vehicles are still going to be a problem for at least another 50-100 years though.

nobody knows what the future will hold but given our current economic instability, a looming energy crisis and oh ya, climate change, pretty sure that's not going to be the case. we need to start spending what little capital we have left on improving public transit, not accomodating cars.

[FairHamilton]

I agree that LRT would entice more people to take public transit, but I disagree that turning Main and King two way and removing the light timing (although I think it is a good idea) will convert people to public transit.

But it will make people take more sensible alternatives. Instead of running through town they will take the 403, Linc, RHVP, and QEW to get around town. I know myself would likely change how I enter the city and get to my home, in South Stipeley.

Currently, coming from Toronto I take the 403 to Main and along Main to the Sherman South area. I usually hit the first light at Dundurn, but then cruise without hitting another light (or maybe one) at 50kmh all the way to Sherman.

If it were 2 way, and I hit 5, 6 or 7 lights, I would likely change to taking the QEW and coming into the city along Burlington Street and along Birch.

A 2 way street would change my driving pattern.

[BrianE]

I'm hardly a worldly person so it took me a while to understand how Hamilton's traffic infrastructure affects the city since I havn't been to many other cities in Canada or the World. It really boils down to asking yourself some simple questions.

What is Main St in Hamilton?
It's a high volume, high velocity, 5 lane thorough fare with syncronized lights.

Why is there a high volume of traffic on Main St?
Because it's an efficent mover of vehicles and has the shortest travel time across the city.

Why does Main St. have the shortest travel time for Vehicles?
Because a lot of people in Hamilton own vehicles and prefer to drive them.

Why do a lot of people own vehicles and prefer to drive them?
Because Main St has the shortest travel time.

Why does Main St have the shortest time
Because a lot of people in Hamilton Own vehicles and prefer to drive them.

I think we're all starting to see this circular reasoning coming into effect. We just need a critical mass of people to realize this logic fault that is our traffic system.

Because the next question to ask is:

How does Main St affect buisnesses and living conditions around it?
Main St. is generaly regarded as an undesirable place to own a buisness and or live.

Why is that?
Because of High volumes on traffic on Main St.

Why does Main St. have a high volume of Traffic?

And it goes on and on and on and on.