[thistleclub]

Hamilton Set to Open its First Multi-lane Roundabout

HAMILTON, ON - October 31, 2008 - The City of Hamilton’s Planning and Economic Development and Public Works Departments are proud to announce the official opening of the City’s first multi-lane roundabout.

WHAT: Official grand opening of the multi-lane roundabout on Wilson Street West and Shaver Road in Ancaster
WHEN: Monday, November 3, 2008 4:30 p.m.
WHERE: Wilson Street West and Shaver Road, Ancaster
WHO: Councillor Lloyd Ferguson; Tony Sergi, Director, Development Engineering, Planning and Economic Development Department; Hart Solomon, Manager, Traffic Engineering & Operations, Public Works Department

WHY: Roundabouts are a more modern and effective means of safely controlling traffic at intersections. The new multi-lane roundabout at Wilson Street West and Shaver Road will result in a number of positive impacts for the City Of Hamilton, including:

• Increased safety
• An enhanced community gateway
• Improved transportation that connects major streets and Highway 403
• Environmental advantages such as lower fuel consumption, less greenhouse gas and air pollutant emissions, compared to other types of traffic control

[flar]

^^complete with sidewalks to nowhere.

Actually, it is quite impressive, I was up there last week.

[omro]

WHY: Roundabouts are a more modern and effective means of safely controlling traffic at intersections.

I think that's so funny!

The words "more modern" makes me laugh. Apparently the first roundabout in the UK was in 1909!

[thistleclub]

I think that's so funny!

The words "more modern" makes me laugh. Apparently the first roundabout in the UK was in 1909!

But it's considered backward by comparison.

[raisethehammer]

multilane roundabouts exist at Queenston Traffic Circle and bottom of Kenilworth Access.
It makes sense to build more of these out in the suburbs where people think they're being robbed of basic life sustenance if they have to stop at a light or sign.
Roundabouts let them keep zipping to the hortons drive-thru or dollar store.
No pedestrians to worry about so why not.

[Hammer Native]

Years ago there was the Stoney Creek Traffic Circle. That was where the QEW met Centennial Parkway. I have old maps and that was pretty much the same design as a roundabout. I doubt it could work with the volume of traffic we have on our 400-type freeways today though. Come to think of it there was also one in Mississauga at the QEW and Erin Mills Parkway/Southdown Road exit that was redesigned just several years ago. Does anyone know if they exist on British Freeways or just city streets?

[raisethehammer]

I know they exist on highways in Central and South America.

[flar]

multilane roundabouts exist at Queenston Traffic Circle and bottom of Kenilworth Access.

Good point. How can the City of Hamilton’s Planning and Economic Development and Public Works Departments not know about the other two?

[raisethehammer]

it's the lower city....they have no clue.

[hamiltonguy]

There is a difference.

A Roundabout gives right of way to cars in the circle (meaning if cars are comming by or someone is crossing you have to stop. For pedestrians they are about as safe as a traffic light. They also stop the green wave speeding without requiring an actual stop (best of both worlds, no inefficient stopping but no ability to speed because of the need to slow down.)

A Traffic Circle gives right of way to through Traffic and are considered very unsafe for pedestrians.

[raisethehammer]

you've obviously never tried to cross either one as a pedestrian.
They aren't anywhere near as safe as a stop light.
these things are all about cars, cars, cars.

[omro]

you've obviously never tried to cross either one as a pedestrian.
They aren't anywhere near as safe as a stop light.
these things are all about cars, cars, cars.

I have to agree, most roundabouts lack traffic lights and as a result you have to cross when you can see a lull in the oncoming traffic.

Most british roundabouts, in urban areas, requiring pedestrian crossing have zebra crossings on the road a short distance in from the roundabout itself. This allows the pedestrian to have a right of way.

[raisethehammer]

Cape Cod has some roundabouts that make your life flash before your eyes as you attempt to cross. It's an unreal mass of mayhem. Lol.

[hamiltonguy]

Maybe growing up in the suburbs i've gotten used to watching for cars, but when in Britain recently i found roundabouts perfectly safe except for ones on A roads (what would be provincial highways and or regional roads) here.

When i was little however i was almost run over many times by cars turning right on green because they assumed that they had right of way. Or left turning cars who only cared about making it through a half a second gap and didn't notice the person crossing the road.

Meanwhile at roundabouts you have to slow down and/or stop to yield to traffic in the roundabout. Unless you get into massive roundabouts (ie. two four lane roads), i find it much more comfortable that traffic lights.

However I do have one caveat. They need to be like the roundabouts in the Ancaster surveys which have very tight curves requiring the car to slow down to about 20 Km/h.

[adam]

Maybe growing up in the suburbs i've gotten used to watching for cars,

Don't you mean running for your life? :jester:

[hamiltonguy]

Don't you mean running for your life? :jester:

actually did most of that at stinson and wentworth, and at wentworth and delaware. They are horrible corners for people making right turns without looking.

[realcity]

Ontario needs to ban Right Turns on Red, like Quebec

[adam]

Or maybe we can just have drivers give pedestrians the right of way like the law says.

[raisethehammer]

Ontario needs to ban Right Turns on Red, like Quebec

yup, I agree 100%! I loved that when I was in Montreal. None of the BS inching forward close to my knees when I'm crossing like I get here every bloody day of my life.

[Millstone]

Ontario needs to ban Right Turns on Red, like Quebec

No. And several intersections in Hamilton are no-right-turn-on-red and they just get ignored.

[raisethehammer]

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been behind someone at a 'no turn on red' and actually seen them go anyhow in the past 15 years.
That statement isn't true at all, and even if it was, that's no reason to not make a simple, logical change to our street system.
People speed everyday. Should we get rid of speed limits??

[Millstone]

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been behind someone at a 'no turn on red' and actually seen them go anyhow in the past 15 years.
That statement isn't true at all, and even if it was, that's no reason to not make a simple, logical change to our street system.
People speed everyday. Should we get rid of speed limits??

It is not a logical change. Yes we should get rid of most speed limits.

I can count on two hands how many times it's happened and I haven't even lived here a year. Motorists have a complete disregard for the HTA here.

[drpgq]

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been behind someone at a 'no turn on red' and actually seen them go anyhow in the past 15 years.
That statement isn't true at all, and even if it was, that's no reason to not make a simple, logical change to our street system.
People speed everyday. Should we get rid of speed limits??

The dead end part of St. Joseph's Drive. I live there and believe me, there's a festival of illegal red light red turns.

[raisethehammer]

and your point is??

[Hammer Town]

Ok I need to fix up some peoples Ignorance on round abouts. First off the Traffic circles and the Kenilworth Access and Queenstone Rd are just that Traffic Circles Roundabouts are designed differantly and area actually a safer means for everyone to travel though an intersection.

I was going to try and type out this big elaborate message however Im instead going to post a few links regarding roundabouts and some pretty impressive stats.

http://www.roundabouts.ca/orc_introduction.htm
http://www.roundabouts.ca/orc_safety.htm
http://www.roundabouts.ca/orc_highspeedroads.htm

Anyway do some research before you decide you don't like something. Also get over the fact that cars are there. Seriously. People are lazy and don't want to walk oh well.

[raisethehammer]

Ok I need to fix up some peoples Ignorance on round abouts. First off the Traffic circles and the Kenilworth Access and Queenstone Rd are just that Traffic Circles Roundabouts are designed differantly and area actually a safer means for everyone to travel though an intersection.

I was going to try and type out this big elaborate message however Im instead going to post a few links regarding roundabouts and some pretty impressive stats.

http://www.roundabouts.ca/orc_introduction.htm
http://www.roundabouts.ca/orc_safety.htm
http://www.roundabouts.ca/orc_highspeedroads.htm

Anyway do some research before you decide you don't like something. Also get over the fact that cars are there. Seriously. People are lazy and don't want to walk oh well.

Not all people are lazy. I DO want to walk and I want to have a controlled intersection to walk across not some speeding circle of cars. In case you hadn't noticed, cars are bigger than me and can do more damage than I can do to them.
Please get over the fact that drivers think they are the only people on the planet who matter and that everyone who walks/cycles should be relegated to running for their lives so that the almighty car doesn't have to stop once in a while.

[FairHamilton]

Ok I need to fix up some peoples Ignorance on round abouts. First off the Traffic circles and the Kenilworth Access and Queenstone Rd are just that Traffic Circles Roundabouts are designed differantly and area actually a safer means for everyone to travel though an intersection.

I was going to try and type out this big elaborate message however Im instead going to post a few links regarding roundabouts and some pretty impressive stats.

http://www.roundabouts.ca/orc_introduction.htm
http://www.roundabouts.ca/orc_safety.htm
http://www.roundabouts.ca/orc_highspeedroads.htm

Anyway do some research before you decide you don't like something. Also get over the fact that cars are there. Seriously. People are lazy and don't want to walk oh well.

I did notice that all the references to safety were in regards to vehicle collisons, with no mention of pedestrian safety. Usually, information that isn't beneficial is ignored. So by that measure it means they really aren't a safer means for everyone (i.e. pedestrians), just car travel.

Now I think circles have their place, but I don't think they are the be all to end all.

[Millstone]

and your point is??

Are you serious? You just said how great it would be if every right turn on red would be illegal and when 2 people say "well uh nobody actually follows that law now" you have nothing to say?

[Hammer Town]

Regardless of what intersections are best most pedestrian Auto Mobile collisions are at intersections.

*Most pedestrian fatalities (80 percent) and the majority of injuries (57 percent) occurred while the vehicle was travelling straight ahead. Intersections were the most common location.

(*taken from http://www.safety-council.org/info/traffic/pedestrians.html)

As for roundabouts. the rounds about entrance has a island between each direction of travel aloowing for people crossing to look one way cross to the island then look the other way and cross the other half. Im not sayifn roundabouts are great but I think they are a better option then lights everywhere even if its just base of the accident redutions. Also the fact that it slow down traffic. Nobody running red lights. left traffic congestion which is better for the environment. I know walking if good too however'we can't walk everywhere.

[adam]

You are abusing the whole environment issue to support the creation of the roundabout.

Removing a stop light and constructing a roundabout will not lower pollution in the environment in any significant way. Lowering the # of vehicles on the road by reducing # of trips and working closer to home is the best way to reduce vehicle pollution.

[Hammer Town]

You are abusing the whole environment issue to support the creation of the roundabout.

Removing a stop light and constructing a roundabout will not lower pollution in the environment in any significant way. Lowering the # of vehicles on the road by reducing # of trips and working closer to home is the best way to reduce vehicle pollution.

I agree more people should walk or take public transportation however in the dreamworld that half the members on this board live in thats not going to happen any time in the very near future even if it does the Roundabout is still safer for the vechicles that will still be on the road. To be honest I am kinda suprised that so many people are against these roundabouts.

You better get used to it. A lot of area in the US require a roundabout the be build unless the traffic light can be proved to be safer. NY state has this in effect.

[Hammer Town]

Oh one more think as much as i am trying to make a case for Roundabouts. Most have probably come to assume that I own a car. I don't infact i don't evenhave a full g lincense yet. I usally and the warmer months walk 45 minute to and from work just about everyday. Unless its raining or something, Even then I do it sometimes. I just dont have an appreciation for ignorance thats why I am trying to make a point.

[drpgq]

and your point is??

Just correcting you on your belief that illegal red turns are a very
rare event.

[raisethehammer]

Are you serious? You just said how great it would be if every right turn on red would be illegal and when 2 people say "well uh nobody actually follows that law now" you have nothing to say?

no, my point was already stated - just because people break the law doesn't mean we just throw our hands up and say "oh well, nobody is following the law".
We enforce it.
Cameras seem to work just fine at getting red light runners.

[Millstone]

no, my point was already stated - just because people break the law doesn't mean we just throw our hands up and say "oh well, nobody is following the law".
We enforce it.
Cameras seem to work just fine at getting red light runners.

But there aren't cameras installed at most of these no-right-turn-on-red intersections. You would have to put cameras at every single intersection in Ontario, who's gonna pay for that?

[FairHamilton]

Regardless of what intersections are best most pedestrian Auto Mobile collisions are at intersections.

*Most pedestrian fatalities (80 percent) and the majority of injuries (57 percent) occurred while the vehicle was travelling straight ahead. Intersections were the most common location.

(*taken from http://www.safety-council.org/info/traffic/pedestrians.html)

As for roundabouts. the rounds about entrance has a island between each direction of travel aloowing for people crossing to look one way cross to the island then look the other way and cross the other half. Im not sayifn roundabouts are great but I think they are a better option then lights everywhere even if its just base of the accident redutions. Also the fact that it slow down traffic. Nobody running red lights. left traffic congestion which is better for the environment. I know walking if good too however'we can't walk everywhere.

Great stat, but I'm also aware the 79.4% of all statistics are made up. And a stat is only valuable when you can compare it against an alternative. Since we don't have circles for comparison sake the stat doesn't hold much value.

Again, I'm not saying circles are bad. I think they have a place for certain settings. What I'm saying is they aren't a blanket solution. Just as I think Scramble Intersections also have a benefit at certain (not all) intersections (though not the way Toronto does it).

[adam]

I agree more people should walk or take public transportation however in the dreamworld that half the members on this board live in thats not going to happen any time in the very near future even if it does the Roundabout is still safer for the vechicles that will still be on the road. To be honest I am kinda suprised that so many people are against these roundabouts.

You better get used to it. A lot of area in the US require a roundabout the be build unless the traffic light can be proved to be safer. NY state has this in effect.

Why should I get used to something that will be obsolete within the next 10 years? Do you really think you'll be driving a gasoline-fueled car in the year 2020? If so then I'm going to accuse you of living in a dream world.

Many European cities already have electric vehicles with a top speed of 30-60km/h. They are very popular and that's the way things are going. Oil production has been steadily decreasing for a few years now with no turn-around possible due to exhausted oil fields. They aren't finding any new oil fields AT ALL (there are none left). The only reason gas prices have fallen lately is because demand has fallen.

Who's going to ride the roundabouts when nobody can fuel their car? I guess the skateboard kids will enjoy them. :haha:

The only reason why you don't see electric cars on our roads is because the McGuinty government has made them illegal. The electric cars are designed in Toronto but can't be driven on Ontario roads! They are legal in BC and Quebec, however.

[FairHamilton]

The only reason why you don't see electric cars on our roads is because the McGuinty government has made them illegal. The electric cars are designed in Toronto but can't be driven on Ontario roads! They are legal in BC and Quebec, however.

Yet, they allow electric bikes on roads like bicycles (i.e. no licensing required) :shrug:

BTW, I think your view that cars as we know them will be gone in 2020 is unrealistic. And I believe the only reason oil prices rose was through market manipulation, not supply and demand.

[raisethehammer]

Yet, they allow electric bikes on roads like bicycles (i.e. no licensing required) :shrug:

BTW, I think your view that cars as we know them will be gone in 2020 is unrealistic. And I believe the only reason oil prices rose was through market manipulation, not supply and demand.

I agree with you re: 2020, but oil rose due to very tight supply and growing demand. Demand is dropping like a stone right now.

[adam]

Its a well accepted fact that overall supply of oil will decrease every year for the remainder of our lifetimes and well beyond. If we get out of this economic slump, gass prices will have to shoot up unbelievably, then what?

[raisethehammer]

Its a well accepted fact that overall supply of oil will decrease every year for the remainder of our lifetimes and well beyond. If we get out of this economic slump, gass prices will have to shoot up unbelievably, then what?

we repeat the cycle over and over.

[HackD]

Its a well accepted fact that overall supply of oil will decrease every year for the remainder of our lifetimes and well beyond. If we get out of this economic slump, gass prices will have to shoot up unbelievably, then what?

Then the economy will tank yet again, in a state of chronic stagflation, until we have a solution in place for our energy short-falls. Somethings gotta give.

We've seen that the good times are now past.. you either have to be pretty dense or in denial to not know that King Oil is a finite resource. Yet now that price of gas has 'dropped' temporarily, a lot of people consider that the peak pricing we just experienced is just another artificially induced Oil Crisis '73-74, and continue to drive their single occupant monster SUV's without a care...

And yet, our society is built around the car. No easy solutions in sight unless they close a lane or two on the QEW both ways for a radical high density LRT remake using the existing automotive commuter routes..

[Hammer Town]

The way some people go one about gas i think I might be taking my horse and buggy about the roundabouts. As much as that is sarcasm maybe it iwll happen. Although i am sure they will find some other way to run auto mobiles. Im pretty sure 100 years ago nobody thought they would even see the Horse and buggy no longer needed.

Seriously there are some pretty intelligent people out there who will come up with something. anyway you talking about this round about like they built a new road or something. Man maybe they should just shut down wilson st since apparently we are running out of gas in 11 years.

Also if we do run out of fuel in 11 years atlest for the next 11 years there will be a reduction in accidents! I guess its worth it.

We'll find out in 11 years or so.

[adam]

The electric car has been around since the 1900's. In the 1990's electric cars were produced by GM and available for lease only. They easily went 80+km/h and were available in California. When people wanted to purchase them at the end of the lease, they were refused. GM took all the leases back and demolished them. Do some internet research and find out more.

The solution has been around for a long time. It just hasn't been in the interest of people who are in charge.

[raisethehammer]

A good movie to watch too:

'Who Killed the Electric Car'.

[markbarbera]

I see the Binbrook Road/ RR56 improvement study identifies three new roundabouts as part of the intersection improvements in this study area. IMO the adoption of roundabouts as opposed to traffic lights is a step in the right direction for suburban development improvements. It's also refreshing to see bike lanes as part of the improvement mix.

The study can be viewed at this URL:
www.hamilton.ca/binbrook-RR56-EA

[realcity]

bottom line
Roundabout cost less then a stop light controlled intersection.

A second bonus to the city is that cars don't have to stop. Sometimes I believe there is an electric shock attached to brake pedals when pressed.

RE: Quebec Right on Red
I agree people don't obey the rule that one can make a right turn through an intersection, ONLY if the vehicle comes to a COMPLETE stop and it is clear to proceed. We know this never happens, Drivers are only looking left to see if they can slot into the traffic, and then look to the right for a pedestrian, but by then the car is moving forward with the belief that it's clear to go.

So banning Right on Red won't do anything because people will still turn right on red even if it it's illegal? I disagree, it's much easier to enforce. Just try to do it in Quebec, you might make once, twice but almost certainly the third turn you will hear a cop siren. It's enforced and so nobody does it, except Otario drivers.

The other thing worth noting. Quebec traffic lights have no lag between red lights. That is, as soon as the light turns red, the other direction light turn green. You would think that this would cause a lot of accidents. But drivers know this and never run red lights. Watch an intersection in Hamilton when the light turns red at least two/three vehicles will speed through because they know there is a lag time before the other light turns green.

My opinion. Get rid of Right on Red and remove the lag time between red lights.

[adam]

Keep the roundabout out of the downtown. People like to walk to destinations (i know it sounds wierd and unnatural! :haha: )

[SteelTown]

The City is suppose to build a roundabout at Stone Church and Omni next year.

There's a bunch of proposed roundabouts for Corktown and the North End.

[Hammer Town]

The City is suppose to build a roundabout at Stone Church and Omni next year.

There's a bunch of proposed roundabouts for Corktown and the North End.

I ha'ven't herd of the ones in the lower city this might be difficult to do since they do take up a bit more space then a controlled intersection. Maybe plan to get some of the surround land for this. It would be interesing to see how this would work.

[SteelTown]

Here's the Corktown traffic plan, you can see two proposed roundabouts - Ferguson/Charlton and Walnut/Charlton. Not sure if Council has approved this traffic plan yet.

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/1470859D-01F1-4447-956B-9CECBA304988/0/Corktown_FinalPlan.pdf

[SteelTown]

For North End a proposed roundabout is for James and Strachan St. This I believe Council did approve.

[raisethehammer]

Walnut/Charlton and James Strachan I wouldn't mind having a roundabout since currently there is no stop sign or anything.
They'd be smaller roundabouts meant to have people do 25-30km or so, not these 70km ones in Hamcaster.

[markbarbera]

The Wilson Street roundabouts' speed limits are posted as 30km/h at the approach to the roundabouts' entry points. Wilson Street itself for the most part has a posted speed limit of 50 km/h.

[Millstone]

I really wish Hamilton would improve its standards for road building. An example of a crappy road is Rymal in big-boxville with its bumpy, jarring ride, non-reflective lines (where they even exist), lines that are messy and not even straight, dirt shoulders out of f*cking nowhere. Compare it to when it turns into (former) Hwy 20 and leads past the RM Niagara limits, the road instantly gets better. Another is Upper Wellington south of the Linc. Yeah let's put new subdivisions on a rollercoaster.

[adam]

those roads are suited to the area and built in the style of the development: disposable and cheap.

[markbarbera]

Rymal Road and Upper Wellington south of the Linc are on the short-term road improvement list. And they certainly do need the work.

Adam, new developments are certainly not my personal preference, but lets not paint with wide brushstrokes here. There are some quality neighbourhoods to be found in the south mountain. Besides, given recent and current projects in the city core, disposable and cheap are now the city-wide standard for deelopments. The mountain is just as cheap and disposable as the lower city.

[go_leafs_go02]

I really wish Hamilton would improve its standards for road building. An example of a crappy road is Rymal in big-boxville with its bumpy, jarring ride, non-reflective lines (where they even exist), lines that are messy and not even straight, dirt shoulders out of f*cking nowhere. Compare it to when it turns into (former) Hwy 20 and leads past the RM Niagara limits, the road instantly gets better. Another is Upper Wellington south of the Linc. Yeah let's put new subdivisions on a rollercoaster.
The cheapness is city wide. I notice instantly when i cross over into Ancaster from Hamilton that you could tell things were built better. Wider roads, actual curb and gutters. Space for snow to be stored in the winter (meaning a gap between the sidewalk and the road)

Rymal used to be a provincial highway, you can tell that it used to be a great road..in a RURAL setting. Now it's been slapped together in spots to make it a urban road..with crappy shoulders, inconsistent paving patches to make a quick-fix, when a proper full rehabilitation should be been done.

[adam]

Rymal Road and Upper Wellington south of the Linc are on the short-term road improvement list. And they certainly do need the work.

Adam, new developments are certainly not my personal preference, but lets not paint with wide brushstrokes here. There are some quality neighbourhoods to be found in the south mountain. Besides, given recent and current projects in the city core, disposable and cheap are now the city-wide standard for deelopments. The mountain is just as cheap and disposable as the lower city.

Believe it or not Mark, the houses in the new subdivisions are built with the same poor quality as the roads. It wouldn't make sense to build roads that will last longer than the houses.

The lower city on the other hand is seeing quality upgrades to match the quality of the buildings (many have been standing for 100 years or more). Look at Ferguson, the plan for York Blvd., etc. Even the concrete coating on city hall, while I think it tinkers with the heritage value of the building, is going to last a long time.

[raisethehammer]

Rymal road was always a country road. The city refused to curb sprawl and focus on rebuilding the city's infrastructure, so now you have both poor urban and suburban/rural infrastructure since the costs of sprawl make it impossible to keep up.
The city allowed development in an area where it never should have been allowed - some of the best farmland in Canada. Rymal is simply still the country road it was supposed to be.

[go_leafs_go02]

Rymal road was always a country road. The city refused to curb sprawl and focus on rebuilding the city's infrastructure, so now you have both poor urban and suburban/rural infrastructure since the costs of sprawl make it impossible to keep up.
The city allowed development in an area where it never should have been allowed - some of the best farmland in Canada. Rymal is simply still the country road it was supposed to be.
What makes Rymal road farmland better than farmland anywhere else in Canada? Or let's narrow it down, and say Southern Ontario.

[raisethehammer]

southern-southwestern ontario farmland is among the best in Canada.
It's a known-fact, and one that's pretty easy to figure out when you see the range of foods that can grow here.
But hey, who needs that when we can just go through a mcdonald's drive-thru for our food.

[adam]

That area of Hamilton is a major section of the Niagara fruit belt

[Hammer Town]

rymal Road as well as upper Wellington are going to be upgradesd over the next fews. years ans as far a cheapness. Thats just due to no money.

[go_leafs_go02]

southern-southwestern ontario farmland is among the best in Canada.
It's a known-fact, and one that's pretty easy to figure out when you see the range of foods that can grow here.
But hey, who needs that when we can just go through a mcdonald's drive-thru for our food.

Oh I concur with that. I just was wondering why Rymal Road region for some reason was the golden strip of farmland. Makes sense now.

[raisethehammer]

well, it USED to be golden farmland until Hamilton council did their thing. Lol.

[SteelTown]

The Mountain was never really big for farming fruits and veggies, just livestock. Limestone and rocks in the soil wasn't suitable. Below the Escarpment is perfect for fruits and veggies, hence the Fruitland.

[raisethehammer]

there is still some fruit above, but mostly a ton of other veggies crops. The fruit region is a small stretch from Hamilton-Niagara.
All of southern/southwestern Ontario is rated as some of the top farmland in Canada.

[markbarbera]

Thanks for pointing out that clarification, Steeltown. Fruit Belt is the strip bordered by Lake Ontario to the north and the escarpent's lower edge to the south. Pitted fruits and vinefruits do exceptionally well in that area. Hamilton's Stinson neighbourhood was once a renowned soft fruit orchard, until it was lost to the urban sprawl of the late 19th century ;)

[adam]

And might I add those areas below the mountain are waiting for renewal - all the infrastructure is already there waiting for new developments. If you don't like country roads on the mountain, try below the mountain where the roads are already well established.

[Millstone]

southern-southwestern ontario farmland is among the best in Canada.
It's a known-fact, and one that's pretty easy to figure out when you see the range of foods that can grow here.
But hey, who needs that when we can just go through a mcdonald's drive-thru for our food.

Are you saying McDonald's does not source their food from farmers?

[markbarbera]

The basic laws of supply and demand are at play here. Land available for redevelopment into intensified residendial will not be redeveloped until there is sufficient demand for that kind of product. Currently there is not strong enough demand, but I see that changing in the not-too-distant future. Single family homes are being developed on the south mountain because there is overwhelming demand for that kind of residential development. Personally I do not prefer that kind of development, but obviously many people do.

Given that fact, the south mountain residents' desire to have adequate road infrastructure is justified. And, since the average property tax bill on these properties is easily double that of a lower city residential homeowner (like myself), I really don't think we are in a position to tell them they should do without the same infrastructure we enjoy down here (not only roads, but proper transit service as well). Having said that, it is obvious that the developers making the money selling these new developments should be obliged by the city to contribute more towards providing the infrastructure required to support these new developments.

[raisethehammer]

Are you saying McDonald's does not source their food from farmers?

If you've never read 'Fast Food Nation' you should. It's a real eye opener.

[SteelTown]

There used to be a big farm around Mohawk College and the Psychiatric hospital. It was mostly livestock (cows and pigs) and cornfields. I'm guessing corn and grain was the only thing able to grow healthy on the Mountain. Psychiatric patients would often help out the farmer during their spare time.

[raisethehammer]

just so nobody has misconceptions on here about what can or can't be grown above the escarpment, see more info on this link:

http://environmenthamilton.org/eatlocal/directory/location.htm

Our family routinely goes to one of several farms in Hamilton (above the escarpment in Ancaster through to Waterdown) to pick our own apples, strawberries, rasberries, pears etc..... the 'tender fruit region' below the escarpment is just that - tender fruits: peaches etc.....
Also, a ton of veggies are grown above the escarpment. Do some reading and research and you'll come to appreciate why it's considered among the best farmland in Canada. The variety of food that can be grown here is truly amazing....equally amazing is the rapid pace which we are paving over this world-renowned treasure.

[realcity]

Its a well accepted fact that overall supply of oil will decrease every year for the remainder of our lifetimes and well beyond. If we get out of this economic slump, gass prices will have to shoot up unbelievably, then what?

This is the cycle that repeats at the top of a Peak Oil predictions. Now that gas is cheap again the party is back on for SUVs and driving up and down your driveway for no reason.

People are dreaming when they think the entire or even the majority of the reason of the spike is crude prices was because of market manipulation. Since when did successful investment in capitalism become market manipulation. When home prices rose nobody was accused of market manipulation then.

It was a supply and demand problem. Through the $150 barrel days the world still only continued to pump out 85 million barrels per day just the same as when oil first hit $80 a barrel.

I don't care whom believes this. When oil hits under $50 im putting $10K in oil futures. I'm willing to bet $10K that oil will hit $100 again in two years. Double my money in two years... not a bad good investment. Or is this called 'market manipulation'. There's no such thing in 'free markets' either they're free or not. If they are, then anyone is free to make money from buying and selling.

[BrianE]

This is the cycle that repeats at the top of a Peak Oil predictions. Now that gas is cheap again the party is back on for SUVs and driving up and down your driveway for no reason.

People are dreaming when they think the entire or even the majority of the reason of the spike is crude prices was because of market manipulation. Since when did successful investment in capitalism become market manipulation. When home prices rose nobody was accused of market manipulation then.

It was a supply and demand problem. Through the $150 barrel days the world still only continued to pump out 85 million barrels per day just the same as when oil first hit $80 a barrel.

I don't care whom believes this. When oil hits under $50 im putting $10K in oil futures. I'm willing to bet $10K that oil will hit $100 again in two years. Double my money in two years... not a bad good investment. Or is this called 'market manipulation'. There's no such thing in 'free markets' either they're free or not. If they are, then anyone is free to make money from buying and selling.

Until recently I too used to rail at speculators manipulating the price of oil on the market. Then I read a few articles on how this speculation is actualy useful in knocking down the demand of oil before actual shortages at the pumps occur.

Some folk have said that the recent $150 per barrel oil of the summer was all because of speculators on the market trying to find a safe place to put their money during times of great market turmoil. And to some extent this is true. But ask yourself, why were so many people betting on the price of oil increasing? Could it be that the fundamentals of supply and demand indicated an ever increasing price of oil and therefore a better place to invest your money.

This past summer has also conviced me that the price of oil should definitly not be regulated. The free market wonks have it right on this point, the price of oil must be speculated upon in order to drive up the price and reduce demand artificialy before actual shortages at the pumps drive up prices even higher anyways.

Oh.. this was off topic. Anyways. back to the roundabout.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Until recently I too used to rail at speculators manipulating the price of oil on the market.

If anything, speculation tends to smooth volatility by averaging price spikes over longer time periods.

Some folk have said that the recent $150 per barrel oil of the summer was all because of speculators on the market trying to find a safe place to put their money during times of great market turmoil. And to some extent this is true.

On the other hand, oil inventories did not grow significantly during the run-up in prices over the first half of the year, as we would expect if the price were significantly the result of speculation rather than supply/demand. What eventually happened is that the prices got so high that demand plummeted (amid a general recession in economic activity). As soon as reserves started piling up, the oil price started falling again.

This past summer has also conviced me that the price of oil should definitly not be regulated.

It's probably impossible to regulate oil prices as such, but I strongly support regulating the price of gasoline by imposing a very large fuel tax (i.e. regulating a floor price rather than a ceiling price). Here are my reasons:

1. When the fuel tax is a higher proportion of the total, fluctuations in the price of oil have less influence on the price of gas. For both consumers and businesses, a high but predictable price is superior from a planning perspective to a highly volatile price.

2. The steadily higher prices send a clear price signal to automakers to invest in more fuel efficient cars. It's no surprise that car companies whose primary markets have low but volatile gas prices are struggling with business models for gas-guzzlers while car campanies whose primary markets have very high gas prices have thrived during the run-up in gas prices and are still financially sound through this recession.

3. Industrialized countries with very high fuel prices have living standards that are comparable to ours - and even drive about as much as we do, albeit with more fuel efficient cars. The common explanation for why Europeans can get away with smaller cars is that their cities are more compact and closer together, but the evidence does not support this view. North Americans drive around 18,000 km/year on average, whereas Europeans drive a little over 17,000 km/year - only slightly less. The difference, of course, is that European cars are far more fuel efficient than North American cars.

4. Higher gas prices provides stable funding for better municipal and regional transit systems while simultaneously sending a price signal to consumers to choose transit over driving for some trips. It also sends a price signal to developers to build more compact, walkable residential/commercial developments.

5. Finally, higher gas prices amount to a user-pay system for drivers, who currently enjoy subsidized travel on a transportation system that is paid out of general tax revenues.