[emge]

The most discouraging part of the Spec article today:

"If there was a silver lining to the Brandon fire, it was the hope that the influx of hundreds of students would inject some life into Hamilton's struggling downtown.

The city has been trying for years to get a university residence downtown and the Brandon fire has been an opportunity for a trial run.

But so far, the students don't seem to be venturing too far into the downtown core.

Phyllis Stefanik, an employee at Druxy's in Jackson Square, said other than one student who asked if they accepted McMaster meal cards, she hasn't noticed any student traffic. The Honest Lawyer, Cheapies and two businesses around the Crowne Plaza -- Sushi Star and Hasty Mart -- all say they haven't noticed an increase of student business.

The only business to confirm that they've noticed a small spike was the Jackson Square LCBO.

The students say they haven't been venturing out downtown because they're afraid.

"It's creepy," Perlman said of her new downtown neighbourhood. "I'm terrified as soon as it gets dark out."

"It's not like downtown Toronto," Fairclough said. "Most of us are pretty timid. A lot of people are worried about the crime in the area.""

Most of us can agree those fears are largely unfounded, and the article likely exaggerates them, but the culture shock for suburban kids moving downtown is real, as is the opportunity to help introduce them to the postiive aspects of downtown living if some initiative is taken.

What can be done to help these Mac kids transition to the downtown, be more exposed to the good things downtown, even begin to like the downtown more? They know about Hess - how do they get exposed to the rest?

What can the government, individuals, businesses, business associations do? Heck, what could we do?

(I am glad to see that most of them aren't using their ridiculous $200 weekly cab allowance for cabs because they feel THAT unsafe, though.)

[ryan_mcgreal]

What can be done to help these Mac kids transition to the downtown, be more exposed to the good things downtown, even begin to like the downtown more? They know about Hess - how do they get exposed to the rest?

That's easy: guided walking tour followed by a pub crawl.

[Millstone]

Most of us can agree those fears are largely unfounded,bwahaha!

[oldcoote]

The Mac students have cause to be concerned.

The downtown core, at night especially, is a different animal. Far different from campus, Westdale, and likely, wherever it is they hail from.

In terms of going out, they want to go to bars where other students hang out, likely making the trek to Hess Street.

The Downtown BIA would be smart to organize a walking tour for sure. Show them some of the local flavour. Perhaps the James North Art Crawl should extend a special offer to displaced students for the next art crawl.

[FairHamilton]

- Intro to the Art Crawl next Friday night
- Tour of the Farmers Market, especially those at Staybridges
- The Mayor's office organizing a reception/information session
- The BIA proactively marketing to the students on behalf of their members

I can't get on thespec.com right now, but if I recall correctly there was about 500 students (can someone confirm) and they are getting $200/week from Mac's insurance. So that's a $100,000/week influx of new money into the core.

Now some are saving it for trips, tuition, etc. But human nature is to spend some of that 'found money', so even it that means 25% that's a good cash influx to the core on a continuing weekly basis.

Hopefully, the mayor's office (city) and the BIA are actively pursuing that spending money windfall.

[coalminecanary]

i find the druxy's quote to be slightly misleading. the students just moved there. they have barely had time to explore. they may never have the time or inclination to explore. to most this is a temporary situation and "we will get through it". if there were a permanent student residence downtown, the retail position would be completely different because the stores would be going out of their way to cater to the students, seeing as they are a "permanent" placement. offering discounts and accepting meal cards for example. are any downtown businesses targeting students directly? i don't know whether or not they are - but if they are not, they have no one to blame but themselves for not reaping any benefits from the students' presence. if i owned a food establishment downtown i'd be getting my ass into the sil with a coupon every week.

[SteelTown]

McMaster will be asking students about their opinions regarding their stay at downtown. So really this is a test.

[FairHamilton]

McMaster will be asking students about their opinions regarding their stay at downtown. So really this is a test.

All the more reason for the city (mayor's office) and BIA to be bending over backwards, providing ambassadors, walking tours, and informational services.

[Jon Dalton]

I just can't believe the same group of people who apparently frequent hess village find downtown scary.

[raisethehammer]

to start with, let's hook them up with HMag, RTH, Arts Hamilton, Pearl Company etc.... not some writer from the Spec.

Students would love Pepperjacks, London Tap House, Augustra/John area, Hess, Locke South, Staircase Cafe-Theatre (reopening tomorrow as Tapestry Bistro), James North galleries, JS theatres, farmers market, library etc......

Dave Kuruc should take by a ton of copies of HMag and drop them off. The University has always done a crap job at promoting life in the city, so let's do it ourselves.
Heck, if they want to drink, they can step into the Honest Lawyer instead of the hotel lobby. Geez, this article is so bush league. As if they are all huddled in the front lobby peeering through the windows, scared to go out. It's a quote from an individual that the Spec LOVES. What else is new?

[raisethehammer]

I just can't believe the same group of people who apparently frequent hess village find downtown scary.

they aren't...see my above post. it's another BS article by the fearmongering Spec.

[FairHamilton]

The University has always done a crap job at promoting life in the city, so let's do it ourselves.

I don't disagree with that statement, but I think they really have no reason to promote life in the city. It provides no little to no value to the university to promote life in the city.

It would be the cities job to promote city life to Mac students, and I'm betting they've historically done a job equal to that of the university......

I think, all students should be getting a weekly newsletter delivered to their doors that promotes theatres, restaurants, stores, activities, discounts, etc. in the core.

[emge]

a newsletter and getting the downtown BIA involved are both great ideas.

So who's best to get some of these things going? Who naturally would be able to make that contact with the businesses and the students, or extend it from another publication?

i'm asking most of these question because I think the need to make that connection is big, but I don't have an extra 40 hours in my week or the know-how to do it, and I'm honestly not too familiar with a lot of the Hamilton publications.

It seems a lot can be done (and as has been pointed out, there is a significant amount of money kicking around with these kids) so where to start?

[matt602]

I'm personally of the opinion that the majority of these students couldn't care about anything aside from the LCBO in JS and the dingy night clubs/bars along Hess. That's why I think none of them have bothered to find anything else. I have no faith that any more than 10% of them care to be find out the downtown culture. The other 90% are happy getting plastered and running up and down the halls of the hotel in bed sheets, screaming their heads off like 15 year old's, because they need to "calm down from the stress of studying". Apparently that was their usual routine at Brandon.

[go_leafs_go02]

also remember..now is a high time for alot of students..to have to focus on schoolwork. They don't have the time or the effort to go walk around downtown..sure that weekly night out at Hess or whatever..but other than that..they're loaded overall with their focus on school.

[SteelTown]

Bars, clubs, and pubs, Corktown included should have pub nights to attract students. Accepting meal cards would be nice.

Jackson Square cafeteria accepting meal cards would be great as well.

[raisethehammer]

I'm personally of the opinion that the majority of these students couldn't care about anything aside from the LCBO in JS and the dingy night clubs/bars along Hess. That's why I think none of them have bothered to find anything else. I have no faith that any more than 10% of them care to be find out the downtown culture. The other 90% are happy getting plastered and running up and down the halls of the hotel in bed sheets, screaming their heads off like 15 year old's, because they need to "calm down from the stress of studying". Apparently that was their usual routine at Brandon.

sadly, I think you're right. Turns out one of their own started the fire in Brandon.

[FairHamilton]

sadly, I think you're right. Turns out one of their own started the fire in Brandon.

And unfortunately didn't have the personality to step forward and take responsibility in the days after the incident.

[emge]

Oh, sure, they may not be the most desirable piles o' fun right now besides what their money brings to the area, but if they get to see downtown Hamilton now and enjoy it, then when they grow up and get jobs, they might be persuaded to stay. (Not to mention that I'm sure not all of them are acting like childish drunken idiots, though that seems to prevail in most university communities).

But their long-term effects are surely the point, not the short-term misbehaviours?

[thistleclub]

also remember..now is a high time for alot of students..to have to focus on schoolwork. They don't have the time or the effort to go walk around downtown..sure that weekly night out at Hess or whatever..but other than that..they're loaded overall with their focus on school.

To be frank, the residence experience at Mac historically tends to breed insularity and the expectation of convenience. Everything is there for you, albeit a less flavourful version of what you might be able to get off-campus. Many Mac students regularly travel no further than Westdale, maybe a kilometer from their bed. At first I thought that the change of circumstance might introduce an interesting variable, but I can see the flip side as well. It's not just about comfort level but also spare time. If this happened in late September, maybe it'd be a different story. November to January isn't the ideal time to be exploring downtown. And displaced students may have social ties within Brandon and among other residences on campus that they'll want to maintain. Hotels have plenty of tourism info, from maps to guidebooks, so it's not like they're on Mars or something. I really think it comes down to time. Hess on the weekend is a comfort and a constant, and it's what they know. Many Hamiltonians have to be coaxed into visiting downtown or require the reassurance of a crowd to know that a cultural pastime is the thing to do. It's not an exclusively undergraduate condition.

[thistleclub]

to start with, let's hook them up with HMag, RTH, Arts Hamilton, Pearl Company etc.... not some writer from the Spec... Geez, this article is so bush league. As if they are all huddled in the front lobby peering through the windows, scared to go out. It's a quote from an individual that the Spec LOVES. What else is new?

Guess they used up all of their rah-rah on last week's Celebrate Hamilton supplements. Hopefully the students didn't catch wind of those.

[geoff's two cents]

Students would love Pepperjacks, London Tap House, Augustra/John area, Hess, Locke South, Staircase Cafe-Theatre (reopening tomorrow as Tapestry Bistro), James North galleries, JS theatres, farmers market, library etc......

Heck, if they want to drink, they can step into the Honest Lawyer instead of the hotel lobby. Geez, this article is so bush league. As if they are all huddled in the front lobby peeering through the windows, scared to go out. It's a quote from an individual that the Spec LOVES. What else is new?

Thankfully, during my time in the city I wasn't the only student out there enjoying what the city had to offer. In particular, there seemed to be a number of students out and about in the Augusta/Corktown neighborhood, which was nice to see.

Of course, there isn't nearly enough student activity downtown, which is a tad surprising given the variety of cultural and culinary amenities on offer, and the relative lack thereof on the other side of the freeway.

During my stay in Hamilton, I did my best to propagandize on behalf of my favorite things about downtown, and formed with some other post-grads quite a committed cadre of city centre enthusiasts. Yet, the feeling that downtown is scary, dirty, etc. has proven incredibly persistent. While there are certainly differences between Toronto and Hamilton, I've found the greater part of this fear mongering to be based predominantly (though not exclusively) in myth and misinformation. It's a shame to see the city's newspaper playing a role in this.

If I were still a Hamiltonian though, I would be thrilled to be part of any organization promoting the downtown to Mac students. Sure, there's the art crawl - I wonder what else we could come up with?

[sofasurfer]

I went to uni in Manchester, England and lived in the heart of Salford (right next to Mcr but an even rougher city), had no problems personally but really didn't act like an archetypal student (but that's another story).

But aren't (most of?) these kids first year students? Regardless of which country we're talking about, we're talking kids here. First time away from home and able to drink legally... without wanting to over-generalize, it's not too unrealistic to say many are pretty immature and lack life experience. So it's not hard to see why they might not venture out much of their comfort zone (not saying it's 'right' - merely saying it's not surprising).

Geoff - sounds like you were a postgrad? In my experience (admittedly UK/Europe), PGs tend to just get out and get on with life a lot more in the community they're in.

Regardless, I completely agree that the BIA and local eateries are missing a golden opportunity. They may not have had much time to act, but surely doing the math re. the allowances the uni's giving these kids can show there's a significant potential immediate return to be had, let alone long-term gains by nurturing the student market (and potentially increasing student $$)

Opening up the pre-pay meal card thing can only be a good idea. Encourages students to spend more but carry less cash. Not sure what the business model is with the card readers, though? Or who runs it? That might be a barrier.

I have no idea what happens in Canada re. student unions, gig/club promoters, etc. but if I was still involved with putting on club nights I'd be viewing this as a golden opportunity. I suspect things are different here, though...

[adam]

Its true. I know that there are a lot of students living in the Durand neighbourhood - close to downtown but not gritty at all - in apartments and basements but they are mostly upper year or grad students.

[emge]

I was talking with one student on the bus today who lives east of downtown and has commuted through it since the beginning of the semester.

She related stories of driving around with her family for half an hour downtown, not knowing where a good place to eat would be, not knowing where to start.

What struck me was her desire to know the downtown, wanting to find great places and having an open mind, but not knowing where to begin at all. We both agreed there were a lot of great places in Hamilton, but they were hidden, and hard to find off the bat. That's what has to change.

She had never been to Locke Street (didn't know about it at all!) or Hess Village (had gone by, never had the time to visit. We talked about a few cafes, restaurants, and more, giving some possibilities.

She had even walked around downtown many times and felt intimidated because it was so different than her hometown (which I had been in several times, and personally I feel less safe in!) We talked about some of the statistics for both cities, and all the cities I'd lived in... and she was surprised to hear a lot of the numbers.


It just reinforces for me that usually people just need is an introduction - a pointer in the right direction. Recognizable chains may not be the most exciting thing nor give true character to a downtown, but the aspect of familiarity can prove helpful. If things aren't made easy, very few will have the time or knowhow to figure it out for themselves, but if there's a push given and information made available, it's a lot easier for people to start somewhere.

[highwater]

The Sil usually does a pretty good job of listing restos, retail, and entertainment as an intro to Hamilton at the beginning of every school year. I didn't see this year's edition, so I'm not sure how thorough it was this time. There's also View, and I'm pretty sure you can pick up Hmag on campus, and certainly at several locations around Westdale. It's really not that hard to find what you're looking for if you have a little bit of curiosity and initiative, so I guess the question is how do you get them interested?

[raisethehammer]

not to mention, most students have access to this neat little thing called the internet.

[flar]

I think a lot of suburban people (which includes a lot of kids at mac) are overwhelmed by cities. Many of them are probalby familiar with Toronto from going to specific places there, but any other (strange) city overwhelms them. I once brought someone to Ottawa St. for some material, but she ended up getting it at a big box Fabricland in London even though there is a Fabricland on Ottawa St. The big box was more familiar to her, Ottawa St. had too many choices.

[emge]

Its easy to say "anyone who really wants to can find out all about what's going on in the downtown" Sure, they can.... but only to a point.

And that's all good and fine if one only wants those who have a ton of initiative and already love cities to enjoy downtown. And that kind of person will do it without rapid transit coming to Hamilton, they'll do it without parking, they'll do it no matter if they find Gore Park unfamiliar, they'll do it without promotion. I'd put myself in that category, to be honest - except I lack a lot of the spending money most do. And there really aren't very many comprehensive Hamilton sites that tell you what's available in the city or what good places to ___________ are. (Remember I posted a thread when I moved here, asking about jazz? The rest of the Internet... didn't give me much at all about jazz music in Hamilton, especially not reviews or personal opinion. That shouldn't be friggin' complicated to figure out).

But if one wants the vast majority of people (specifically speaking, these Mac students who have a ton of disposable income and are in close proximity to downtown) to get out there and enjoy it, they'll need a lil' bit o' spoonfeedin' and for things to be brought to them before they're ready to face the big ol' city.

I'd rather find practical ways to do that instead of talking about how people should be acting if they really cared about finding out about downtown... because most of them don't, but they could and would check out places if they had an introduction.

So what could be done, and who could do it? And who is already in a good spot to do it that could be contacted about it? Too bad the View's places to eat issue already came out a while ago - that would have been a great one for the students downtown. I love the pub crawl/walking tour idea too -- what place would take that initiative and would be a good one to start with?

[BrianE]

This attitude is common even outside of the Student population. Take my wife (Please!) :) for example, she's very afraid of going to new and different restaurants because there's a chance she might have a bad experience. Poor food, bad service, whatever. This inevitably leads us to chose one of the default restaurant locations when we go out for dinner because it's safe, we know what we're going to get.

I don't know what the solution to this problem is, how do you get people to leave their comfort zones of Boston Pizza and East Side Marios and take a chance on Lo Presti's or Zum Linzer.

[highwater]

Its easy to say "anyone who really wants to can find out all about what's going on in the downtown" Sure, they can.... but only to a point.

And that's all good and fine if one only wants those who have a ton of initiative and already love cities to enjoy downtown.

But that was my point. You don't need a ton of initiative, only a little. Andy, the Sil's entertainment section, does a pretty good job of highlighting local entertainment and encouraging exploration, so they don't even have to set foot off campus, or surf the net for that matter, to find a 'guide' to the city, if they want one.

But if one wants the vast majority of people (specifically speaking, these Mac students who have a ton of disposable income and are in close proximity to downtown) to get out there and enjoy it, they'll need a lil' bit o' spoonfeedin' and for things to be brought to them before they're ready to face the big ol' city.

I'd rather find practical ways to do that instead of talking about how people should be acting if they really cared about finding out about downtown... because most of them don't, but they could and would check out places if they had an introduction.

That's a rather damning assessment of the maturity level of this group of educated young adults. All the spoonfeeding on the part of their parents is what made them passive and fearful in the first place, I don't think more spoonfeeding is likely to turn incurious people into curious ones.

So what could be done, and who could do it?

I'm not hopeful, in case you hadn't noticed, but if my brief foray into the world of marketing taught me anything, casting too wide a net is a waste of time and resources. You need to target those students who are more likely to be willing to step outside their comfort zones, such as Humanities students, those involved in student organizations and extra-curricular activites, etc. I've had the pleasure of meeting a number of active, engaged, curious students. They are out there. Best to be scattering your seeds on fertile ground.

[sofasurfer]

not to mention, most students have access to this neat little thing called the internet.

Oh, come on... I'm sorry, but from the other posts I've read of yours in the time I've been on SSP, this is pretty lame. Ever heard of Information overload (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_overload), btw? It's why portals/social networking/interweb meme du jour work (ok, gratuitous editorializing there, but I hope you get my point)

This isn't the 1990s any more. And if I had a buck for every time I'd wanted to chib someone for saying 'oh, but it's on the internet/intranet/etc, you can find it there' I'd own half of Ancaster by now ;)

Stress-induced rantette aside, let me try and be a bit more constructive :)

There's a real lack of 'easy ins' for newcomers to discover more about the joys of Hamilton quickly and easily - downtown in particular. I was lucky, I married a local ;) You can call it spoonfeeding if you like (I don't, so wouldn't ;)) but I think it's more a case of making it easier for people to find starting points to explore on their own.

While we're at it, ad listings and advertorial copy in the student press isn't the same as an unbiased guide for newcomers (to be fair, this may happen in a freshers' edition that I've not seen - but I've seen most copies of the Sil since late September and I wouldn't call that a good starting point for students new to Hamilton.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Ever heard of Information overload (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_overload)

tl;dr.

:)

[emge]

highwater, i didn't mean to imply that these young adults were lacking simply because of their age or maturity level. sure, they're not the dimmest icons on the taskbar. but the same problems that keep adults out of the downtown hamper them: lack of knowledge and lack of initiative. Sure, some have initiative. Most don't. And that's where the need for "easy ins" (as was mentioned) comes in. Plus these kids live here for the next two months, so there's an opportunity we don't have with other citizens who live further away.

While some certainly do, reading print papers is a bit of a thing of the past, especially daily/weekly editions. I think things like the View are a bit more applicable. I think I picked up one student paper during my time at Mac last year (grad school), and I didn't read the newspaper then either.. I do now, but didn't then.

Anyways, let's assume these things are working. Let's assume there are a bunch of engaged students and ones who already read the available resources. The original point of the thread was more along the lines of "what more can be done to engage those who aren't already engaged?"

They have spending money, they're bright, they're going for the jobs of the future.... why not try to captivate them while they're here instead of just sending them on shopping trips to Oakville and to Kelsey's for wings?

[highwater]

While we're at it, ad listings and advertorial copy in the student press isn't the same as an unbiased guide for newcomers

This doesn't describe what I've seen in the Sil. I've seen articles on the local music scene for instance, written by students for students, listing bands and venues, describing them and rating them in a way that makes the scene very accessible. I've also seen similar articles on retail and restaurants covering the whole city. I've found their guides so handy sometimes, that I keep them around myself, in spite of the fact that I've been living here 10 years.

The Westdale neighbourhood association has been working hard over the years to build bridges between the students and the local community. Perhaps the downtown BIA needs to do similar outreach. It takes a long time to change ingrained attitudes and preferences. There are no quick fixes.

[highwater]

Hi emge,

I didn't see your post before I posted. I guess I'm dating myself with print references. But if print is out because undergrads don't look at it, and the internet is out because of information overload, what are we left with? Human interaction? Oh brave new world!:)

[raisethehammer]

I think a lot of suburban people (which includes a lot of kids at mac) are overwhelmed by cities. Many of them are probalby familiar with Toronto from going to specific places there, but any other (strange) city overwhelms them. I once brought someone to Ottawa St. for some material, but she ended up getting it at a big box Fabricland in London even though there is a Fabricland on Ottawa St. The big box was more familiar to her, Ottawa St. had too many choices.

too many choices, too many trees, too many pedestrians and not enough huge empty parking lots.

[sofasurfer]

This doesn't describe what I've seen in the Sil.

Fair enough - and I'm working from a distinctly smaller sample size than you :) (although surely the freshers are, too?)

Wearing a hat from a former life, I suspect any kind of strategy that's actually gonna have some hope at a good impact needs to embrace print, online, and physical presence (be it flyers distributed at key points - info packs in the hotel rooms of newly-displaced students, anyone? huge missed opportunity there -or perhaps walking tours of some sort... these could align with special interest groups/societies at the uni and around the city itself).

BTW, RTH - apologies if my earlier post sounded on the sharp side. Posting while stressed at work isn't always the best thing to do :) (still stressed, but coping with it better now ;))