[Evergrey]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081206/ap_on_re_eu/eu_netherlands_amsterdam_cleanup;_ylt=Ak_yfL75uBo5T4mqHFml5hqs0NUE

Amsterdam to close many brothels, marijuana cafes

By TOBY STERLING, Associated Press Writer Toby Sterling, Associated Press Writer 14 mins ago

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081206/capt.70f6f90c20864de59e6d0f3a1348da9e.netherlands_amsterdam_cleanup_pdj107.jpg?x=400&y=274&q=85&sig=.asss19O9N__OUzdIt3RHw--
Sex workers are seen in Amsterdam's Red Light district, Netherlands, Saturday, Dec. 6, 2008. Amsterdam unveiled plans Saturday to close up to half of the famed brothels and marijuana cafes in its ancient city center as part of a major cleanup operation. The city says it wants to drive organized crime out of the district, and is targeting businesses that 'generate criminality,' including prostitution, gambling parlors, 'smart shops' that sell herbal treatments, head shops and 'coffee shops' where marijuana is sold openly.
(AP Photo/Peter Dejong)

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands – Amsterdam unveiled plans Saturday to close brothels, sex shops and marijuana cafes in its ancient city center as part of a major effort to drive organized crime out of the tourist haven.

The city is targeting businesses that "generate criminality," including gambling parlors, and the so-called "coffee shops" where marijuana is sold openly. Also targeted are peep shows, massage parlors and souvenir shops used by drug dealers for money-laundering.

"I think that the new reality will be more in line with our image as a tolerant and crazy place, rather than a free zone for criminals" said Lodewijk Asscher, a city council member and one of the main proponents of the plan.

The news comes just one day after Amsterdam's mayor said he would search for loopholes in new rules laid down by the national government that would close marijuana cafes near schools citywide. The measures announced Saturday would affect about 36 coffee shops in the center itself — a little less than 20 percent of the city total.

Asscher underlined that the city center will remain true to its freewheeling reputation.

"It'll be a place with 200 windows (for prostitutes) and 30 coffee shops, which you can't find anywhere else in the world — very exciting, but also with cultural attractions," he said. "And you won't have to be embarrassed to say you came."

Under the plan announced Saturday, Amsterdam will spend euro30 million to euro40 million ($38 million to $51 million) to bring hotels, restaurants, art galleries and boutiques to the center. It will also build new underground parking areas.

Amsterdam already had plans to close many brothels and some coffee shops, but plans announced Saturday go further.

Asscher said the city would reshape the area, using zoning rules, buying out businesses and offering assistance to upgrade stores. The city has shut brothels and sex clubs in the past by relying on a law allowing the closure of businesses with bookkeeping irregularities.

Prostitution will be allowed only in two areas in the district — notably De Wallen ("The Walls"), a web of streets and alleys around the city's medieval retaining dam walls. The area has been a center of prostitution since before the city's golden shipping age in the 1600s.

Prostitution was legalized in the Netherlands in 2000, formalizing a long-standing tolerance policy.

Marijuana is technically illegal in the Netherlands, but prosecutors won't press charges for possession of small amounts. Coffee shops are able to sell it openly.

[wanderer34]

I honestly think this is going to be reminiscent of the Prohibition era in the US during the 20's in the US!!! This is only going to sprout illegal outlets for marijuana and prostitution, and expect crime to go up. I can't believe that Holand would be that stupid!!! Just watch!!!

[R@ptor]

I can't believe that Holand would be that stupid!!! Just watch!!!

Did you actually read the report? They are only closing some of the windows and coffee shops so comparing it to the prohibition era in the US is truly idiotic.

All this will do is reduce the number of brothels and coffee shops to a normal and acceptable level like it is the case in other Dutch cities, something that is long overdue.

[CentralGrad258]

I don't know the particular local details of Amsterdam, but closing smart shops, brothels and coffee shops in order to fight organized crime seems counter intuitive. Anyone who's been to Amsterdam will attest that the red light district is relatively small part of the city center. You can find coffee shops and smart shops outside of the red light district, but most of them are very well maintained and safe places to be. The whole city felt very safe while I was there, but maybe it's just relative to Philadelphia.

[zilfondel]

Lets see... they are opening up the center for cars, banned smoking tobacco, getting rid of some of the coffee shops and sex theaters...

Sounds like they are Sanitizing it, all right! Wouldnt want those hippies to offend anyone, now would we?

I'm glad I went before they are changing it into some sort of mall. Ick. :(



Although, I will admit that all the drunken UK tourists that flood the place in summer are just fucking gross. Not to mention the nasty outdoor urinals... but then the whole thing felt like a big adventure! Oh well, guess thats what East Asia and Iraq are for these days.

[R@ptor]

Lets see... they are opening up the center for cars,

The center was always open for cars, there was just a debate going on whether it should be closed for private cars.

banned smoking tobacco

Only in bars and restaurants, it's not like tobacco would be banned in your own four walls. And there's also a smoking ban in restaurants in the US and I hardly know anybody who would disagree with this ban, afterall you go to a restaurant to enjoy the taste of your food, something that is impossible if all you can smell is the tobacco smoke from the table next to you.

getting rid of some of the coffee shops and sex theaters...

There will still be plenty of them around. Again folks read the report. a third will be closed...not all.

[slide_rule]

there's also a smoking ban in restaurants in the US and I hardly know anybody who would disagree with this ban

you'd be surprised at the number of quasi-libertarians who argue that public restrictions on tobacco usage are a gross infringement of their freedoms.

[the Misanthropist]

Although, I will admit that all the drunken UK tourists that flood the place in summer are just fucking gross. Not to mention the nasty outdoor urinals... but then the whole thing felt like a big adventure!

Maybe if you're a tourist, but I guess residents should have a say. It's not just sme theme park for American students who want to feel liberated for a weekend - real people live there.

[JMancuso]

Maybe if you're a tourist, but I guess residents should have a say. It's not just sme theme park for American students who want to feel liberated for a weekend - real people live there.

i agree. plus there are also other redeeming qualities about amsterdam besides the hookers, pot and sex shops that visitors should appreciate.

[raggedy13]

I think this is probably a good move on the city's part. I'm not sure how much it will impact crime but if they could take out a few coffee shops/sex shops/brothels in the city centre in favour of more cultural amenities it would really help balance it out a bit better. As things are now there is more than enough of the former and they get old fast as the novelty wares off. Amsterdam has a lot more to offer in its history and culture.

[Lecom]

Well, so the city is doing some spring cleaning. Good for them. If you don't keep freewheeling establishments in check and regulated with an occasional shakedown, you may end up with a 70's Times Square.

[MayDay]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081206/capt.70f6f90c20864de59e6d0f3a1348da9e.netherlands_amsterdam_cleanup_pdj107.jpg?x=400&y=274&q=85&sig=.asss19O9N__OUzdIt3RHw--

I gotta say that if the "worker" on the left is representative of the industry, you could get that on Lorain Avenue in Cleveland (or Detroit Avenue if you want the "original plumbing") in any of the West 80s streets - and for a LOT cheaper! :haha:

[the urban politician]

^ Seriously, I'm disappointed. If the women in the brothels look like that, might as well close them all! :yuck:

[lfc4life]

the women range from 1s to 10s there but are priced accordingly :P

http://www.thetravelmap.net/images/amsterdam-prostitute.jpg
http://www.thetravelmap.net/images/amsterdam-prostitute.jpg

[LMich]

I read this story on AP, earlier, and as with AP given its focus, it seems to be lacking. There seems to be two stories, one story is that they are closing down a number of these shops so as to cut down illegal rackets and general crime, and they are doing it legally by shutting down those operations with shoddy and suspect book keeping.

The other story seems to imply that they are doing this as part of a revitalization attempt to add more density to the center of the city.

I have a few questions, then. So, which of these stories is true? Both? One more than the other? And, which political party(ies) on the city council is/are the originators of the plan?

[mthq]

I think the city is just naturally balancing out and looking at what works and what doesn't. The Dutch did away with the Tippelzone of the 1990s, but legalized prostitution in 2000. This month mushrooms are be banned after a death occurred due to a combination of mushrooms and alcohol last year.

Just as it appears the United States balances itself from FDR, to Reagan, to Obamanomics, it seems local city governments also act as a swinging pendulum. If I'm correct, the Calvinists hold a good chunk of political capital in the Nederlands these days. That couldn't be said earlier this decade. Again though, I can't speak for them like Shiro and Raptor.

[alex1]

Did you actually read the report? They are only closing some of the windows and coffee shops so comparing it to the prohibition era in the US is truly idiotic.

All this will do is reduce the number of brothels and coffee shops to a normal and acceptable level like it is the case in other Dutch cities, something that is long overdue.

there isn't really such a thing as "acceptable levels".Besides the subjectivity of such a comment, supply and demand will dictate what the market can absorb. Government can try to "clean-up" a city all they want, but many times with unintended and negative effects.

[R@ptor]

I have a few questions, then. So, which of these stories is true? Both? One more than the other? And, which political party(ies) on the city council is/are the originators of the plan?

It's certainly a mix of both. On the one hand no city council would be happy if international crime cartels set up their HQ's in a part of their city and one of their inner city districts (which in Europe are always the safest) tends to be infested with crime. On the other hand its needless to say that the Red Light district currently attracts only a very limited range of people. And I can personally attest that the former parts of the RLD which have already been transformed into an area with lots of cafes, boutiques and other shops are enormously popular with a broad range of people now given the central location. So a revitalization of the area is in the best interest of all inhabitants, shop owners and of course also the city council.

As for the originators of the plan...the original plan which called for the closure of all coffee shop located within a certain radius of schools came from the conservative government in The Hague. But the plan calling for a transformation of the RLD is backed up by nearly all parties in the Amsterdam city council.

there isn't really such a thing as "acceptable levels".Besides the subjectivity of such a comment, supply and demand will dictate what the market can absorb.

Sure it's subjective, but if you consider the fact that the average Dutch city of let's say 150,000 has 8 or 9 coffee shops so roughly 1 for 18,000 inhabitants and Amsterdam (pop 755,000) has 260 coffee shops, which is more than 6 times! the amount per inhabitants you can't help to notice that something is wrong, especially because the average citizen of Amsterdam isn't more likely to smoke weed than the average citizen of Utrecht or Rotterdam.

The entire concept of Dutch liberalism is that everything should be legal as long as it doesn't bother a third person. So if the people who need this stuff would simply buy it in the coffee shops and kill their brain cells at home like it is the case in all other cities, I couldn't care less. But with the coffee shop density in Amsterdam you can't walk more than a couple of meters in some parts of the old city without smelling marihuana, especially because all the tourists light up wherever they want forcing the 97-98% of the population who would never touch it, to inhale it as well. And that's certainly something I wouldn't deem acceptable anymore, nor if you read the local newspapers what the majority of the residents deem acceptable.

[Ardent]

Whilst there are many legitimate brothels and stip clubs there are also those who prey on unsuspecting tourists.

London's Soho has battled with what are known as Clip Joints for many years now.

The Clip Joint scam is simple: a customer is shown in and offered a drink or the company of another hostess at their table. If they accept either offer, they will be presented with an outrageously high bill - often for several hundred pounds/dollars - for the drink, service charges, or hostess's company. As with any bar bill, immediate payment is demanded on pain of criminal charges (or, occasionally, physical violence).

This scam is in a legal grey area if extortion is not involved, since there is no law against charging high prices and customers are considered to be responsible for determining the price of what they consume before they purchase it.

Often, a clip joint employee will wait near a legitimate club, and invite passing pedestrians in; the potential customers are meant to believe that the person works for the nearby legitimate club. Typically, clip joints have a ticket counter on the ground level and a bar below; the customer may pay the admission fee and proceed down to the underground bar. Drinks are usually watered down and overpriced, with no prices listed on the menu. Unrequested companion(s) arrive at the table as Hostess's and the customer may also end up being charged for their services on top of the extortionate drinks. In many cases, the visitor does not know he/she is being cheated until presented with an inflated bill. If the bill is not paid, the visitor may be accused of theft of services, while if the bill is paid the customer is defrauded.

I think everyone would like to see such unscrupulous practices stopped whether in London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt etc, and for better licensing of such venues in order to take organised crime out of the equation.

http://www.westminster.gov.uk/councilgovernmentanddemocracy/councils/pressoffice/news/pr-3346.cfm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6971871.stm


Soho in London and red light districts such Amsterdam, Frankfurt and Hamburg have in recent years seen the increasing involvement of groups such as the Albanian and Russian Mafia who are heavily involved in such activities, as well as smuggling illegal sex workers (sex trafficking) from other countries, causing untold misery. Whilst I have no problem with legitimate venues in Amsterdam, this move to crack down on organised crime is very sensible.

The Police in London have tried numerous initiatives to fight the scurge of Clip Joints.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3277/3046251754_bc7e416a1d_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/81/280616498_b06feb1cac_b.jpg

[alex1]

Sure it's subjective, but if you consider the fact that the average Dutch city of let's say 150,000 has 8 or 9 coffee shops so roughly 1 for 18,000 inhabitants and Amsterdam (pop 755,000) has 260 coffee shops, which is more than 6 times! the amount per inhabitants you can't help to..

if amsterdam was the "average" dutch city, it wouldn't see the numbers of coffee shops you show that prove it to be the anomaly.

which brings up the point, should most countries legislate to the average? I personally don't think so.

The rest of your post is a diatribe. I don't smoke marijuana nor did I go into a coffeeshop when I was last in Amsterdam a few years back. However, the ones I passed by certainly didn't affect me in any way.

[SHiRO]

There are two issues here.

The conservative right government who comes up with stuff like banning mushrooms (with no way to enforce it) and closing coffeeshops within 500 meters of a school.

And the Amsterdam city council which is trying to get organized crime out of the RLD.

I oppose the government and I support the efforts of the Amsterdam council and mayor Cohen, which are actually pretty liberal (what else?;)). Cohen doesn't agree with the mushroom ban and he doesn't agree with the 500 meter limit and thinks it should be 50 meters.

Anyway, not much is going to change by closing a few coffeeshops and windows. If anything the area will become more clean, diverse and devoid of the street hustlers.
The Oude Kerk (old church) area is where all the fat ugly whores are anyway...

[LMich]

Which party currently heads up the city council and city government in Amsterdam?

[JMancuso]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20081206/capt.70f6f90c20864de59e6d0f3a1348da9e.netherlands_amsterdam_cleanup_pdj107.jpg?x=400&y=274&q=85&sig=.asss19O9N__OUzdIt3RHw--

I gotta say that if the "worker" on the left is representative of the industry, you could get that on Lorain Avenue in Cleveland (or Detroit Avenue if you want the "original plumbing") in any of the West 80s streets - and for a LOT cheaper! :haha:

i think i remember shiro telling me the hookers get better looking the later it gets. it still being daylight would explain that pic.

[SHiRO]

Which party currently heads up the city council and city government in Amsterdam?
Mayor is Job Cohen from the PvdA (social democrats "Labour")

City government is PvdA and Groen Links (greens)

City Council:

PvdA 20 seats
VVD (liberals) 8 seats
GroenLinks 7 seats
SP (socialists) 6 seats
CDA (conservatives) 2 seats
D66 (liberal democrats) 2 seats



i think i remember shiro telling me the hookers get better looking the later it gets. it still being daylight would explain that pic.
Yeah and that pic is taken behind the Old Church, not the spot you want to go look for the nice looking ones...