Jackson Square

[bornagainbiking]

So I went to Jackson Square and paid $2for parking Wilson and John.  Walked around and got a new hard cover novel for $1.89 at the clearance table @ Coles.  Cruised the Farmer's Market and sat in the new seating (30 metres X 30 metres) with a water from the dollar store across from the indoor library entrance.Then I caught  $6.99 movie matinee with a first run movie with hardly anyone there.  So yes I will do that again.  Cheap cheap cheap.Sure is a pleasant option to Silver city. Cheap afternnon out with your kids.

[matt602]

Jackson Square is definitely on the rise now. Lots of new changes and stuff. It was busy as hell yesterday around dinner time while I was waiting for a friend in the food court.

[MsMe]

What kind of books do you read Bornagainbiking?

Glad I had a book with me last winter after my accident and stuck for hours in ER for many evenings while on IV anti biotics.

[emge]

Even from last year I've noticed a change - more shops, more people, general tone changing. The new Peoples' helps that one section of the mall to be more continuous and attractive - you can walk down the whole hall now and see interesting stores.

A few friends from out-of-town come to the Maker's Market with me yesterday, and we ended up heading to the Farmer's Market after, but we also ended up spending another while in Jackson Square and buying a few things. That likely wouldn't have happened a while ago.

I love it when people come down and they're so excited about what Hamilton has to offer... makes me feel like things are a-changin'. i suppose they are.

[omro]

I agree, Jackson Square seems to have improved.

If anyone remembers my comments about the place during my first visit in April, I found it quite different during my second visit in October. OK, I still think it's a dark and gloomy inside (the use of dark materials doesn't help) and really could do with a jolly good clean, but there were far more shops open and I actually found some places that I wanted to go in and browse.

Onwards and upwards :-)

[bornagainbiking]

As for books mostly, mystery, crime or military fiction.
Jackson Sq is a fair size now and Yale should start a early morning Mall Walker's program.
The food court would get the coffee after crowd. Maybe check with the YMCA, YWCA and Heart and stroke.
People could take the bus right tho the door and if you use City Centre to the Druxy's that is a far distance.

[MsMe]

Centre Mall, mall walkers will have to go to Eastgate Mall since the Centre Mall isn't a mall anymore. So it would be good to start up something like that there.

[IronWarrior]

I also have to say that Jackson Square is starting to pick up, I go there 4-5 days a week and have noticed it starting to get alot busier! even on weekends as well, which is great! JS always had alot of traffic during the week mon-fri because of all the office people, but weekends used to be pretty dead...

[adam]

I've gotta say we were there this weekend on the way to the Maker's Market and we stopped at several stores - usually I just walk through as quickly as possible - its fun to walk through now

[go_leafs_go02]

I don't mind Jackson Square at all, as a mall, for downtown, it's always busy, and seems to be doing well. City Centre is a different story. Due to design issues, I really wish City Centre could have all the stores in Jackson Square, and be the thriving part of the mall. Esthetically, City Centre isn't terrible at all. Sure it's somewhat bland, but it's airy, bright, and if it had the business in there, it would be quite the pleasant place.

Hypothetical. I know City Hall is in there, but yeah. I just find that mall more visually appealing compared to JS.

[oldcoote]

As for books mostly, mystery, crime or military fiction.
Jackson Sq is a fair size now and Yale should start a early morning Mall Walker's program.
The food court would get the coffee after crowd. Maybe check with the YMCA, YWCA and Heart and stroke.
People could take the bus right tho the door and if you use City Centre to the Druxy's that is a far distance.

I think they have one. I saw flyers in City Centre last winter.

[SteelTown]

Relocated the thread since other malls like Centre Mall and Mountain Plaza are in this section.

[hammergirl]

Is Smith McKay florist still in Jackson Square?

[block43]

Is Smith McKay florist still in Jackson Square?

Nope, it has been gone for about a year.

[hammergirl]

Nope, it has been gone for about a year.

Thanks, I was pretty sure they were gone but someone was telling me they were still there.

[Millstone]

It's so wonderful seeing guys taking swigs out of paper LCBO bags in JS

[matt602]

I have seen the same in the Eaton Centre in Toronto many times as well. When ya gotta drink, ya gotta drink.

[matt602]

During a wonder today, I found out that a "Sushi on the Go" vendor is going in where the new seating area at Jackson is. There's a construction notice posted on one of the doors. It lists Tran Dieu (guy who restored Victoria Hall/Mackay) as having something to do with it. This guy seems to be throwing around a fair bit of cash downtown.

[Hammer Native]

I have seen the same in the Eaton Centre in Toronto many times as well. When ya gotta drink, ya gotta drink.

Yeah it's where they gotta pee where people downtown are more worried about.:jester:
:jester:

[markk]

That's great news about 'Sushi on the Go' ... I grab quick sushi from places like this when I work in TO, this will be a nice option for downtown workers!

[realcity]

I like JS the best. I like the valance lighting and proportions of the halls/ceiling. The lighting is indirect, non-glaring ambient without being too dark or so bright you need sunglasses. It's always felt warm/cosy to me vs the cavernous, super bright malls like LR etc.

and i like the maze of halls, i remember years ago always having difficulty navigating it. It's not so mazy now the closure of the west side.

Does anyone remember that Italian rest, it was just about where the wall enclosure begins, beside the furniture store. It would've been behind the wall now. It was cool, had a large seating area that was partially enclosed in floor to ceiling glass?

[thistleclub]

Does anyone remember that Italian rest, it was just about where the wall enclosure begins, beside the furniture store. It would've been behind the wall now. It was cool, had a large seating area that was partially enclosed in floor to ceiling glass?

Sbarro (http://www.sbarro.com/)

[astroblaster]

Does anyone remember that Italian rest, it was just about where the wall enclosure begins, beside the furniture store. It would've been behind the wall now. It was cool, had a large seating area that was partially enclosed in floor to ceiling glass?

yah i remember going there often with my family when i was kid.. good times.

[Millstone]

During a wonder today, I found out that a "Sushi on the Go" vendor is going in where the new seating area at Jackson is. There's a construction notice posted on one of the doors. It lists Tran Dieu (guy who restored Victoria Hall/Mackay) as having something to do with it. This guy seems to be throwing around a fair bit of cash downtown.

I can't find this.

[matt602]

I'll try to get a pic of it next time I'm down. It should be on the food court side, on a door.

[Millstone]

I'll try to get a pic of it next time I'm down. It should be on the food court side, on a door.

Oh I thought it was set up as an island or something.

[IronWarrior]

I like JS the best. I like the valance lighting and proportions of the halls/ceiling. The lighting is indirect, non-glaring ambient without being too dark or so bright you need sunglasses. It's always felt warm/cosy to me vs the cavernous, super bright malls like LR etc.

and i like the maze of halls, i remember years ago always having difficulty navigating it. It's not so mazy now the closure of the west side.

Does anyone remember that Italian rest, it was just about where the wall enclosure begins, beside the furniture store. It would've been behind the wall now. It was cool, had a large seating area that was partially enclosed in floor to ceiling glass?


Italian restaurant?..that would most likely have been 'Sabraros' 'sp?'...I loved that place! and was sad to see it go, I think it was actually beside the furniture store and part of it, think they knocked a wall out or two to make room for what now is the furniture store..not sure it was a long time ago! 20 years...maybe a bit more or less, right across from where mmm muffins was damn! loved that place too for a coffee and muffin before i would go to Champions gym aka now Goodlife Fitness.

[realcity]

thanks for that info guys

it was driving me nuts when i tried to remember the name

just seeing the logo i was like ahh yeahhh
http://www.sbarro.com/images/logoSbarro_home.gif

[Gurnett71]

I might be wrong about this as my memory is a little foggy at this time, but I seem to recall heading over to Sbarro's during a lunch hour or two to sip a couple of beers and a grab a slice of pizza...don't recall them ever carding us as we were well underage at that time working @ the old Eatons.:cheers:

[matt602]

The JS Phase 4 portion where the Farmers Market will be re-located to is now visible to the public. Doesn't really look like it's anywhere near complete though.

[flar]

Can anyone think of a better way to use the plaza on top of Jackson Square? Right now it's literally only used for smoke breaks.

[adam]

It would be a great venue for smaller festivals in the summer. They could also convert it to a "green roof" with walkways and patios. Throw a little restaurant up there and it could become a great spot.

[MsMe]

I assume this is outdoor space? If so how large a space is it?

[emge]

Indoor Chapters/Indigo with an outdoor plaza and artists' market.

[flar]

It would be a great venue for smaller festivals in the summer. They could also convert it to a "green roof" with walkways and patios. Throw a little restaurant up there and it could become a great spot.

It already has trees, grass and walkways. It's a pretty big space but nobody ever goes up there.

[SteelTown]

Reduce the size of the rooftop space and install skylights to brighten up Jackson Square.

[astroblaster]

a patio up there would be cool.

also, in regards to the indigo thing.. i'd be wicked if this was tied into the idea of having 2 story indigo open up onto james and the city center. it could be at the south end of the mall right beside the jackson connection, and then the second floor extending over the top floor to encompass the existing exit to the JS roof.

[emge]

A proper athletic retailer would be nice as well, even if it was the more "urban-fashion" type like Athletes' World. I'd really like to be able to find running shoes and athletic wear at JS, and the one store that's there is a little low on the athletic side and high on the fashion side.

re: the rooftop question, what about a bazaar/market type of thing as an extension of the farmer's market? Instead of more food: handcrafted items, jewelry, music, etc. - and some live music going the whole time.

Along with the Indigo/Chapters idea, although it would/could be difficult with a big store like this, but could exist complementarily - live book and poetry reading events during the summer.

[omro]

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh160/omro/js.jpg
Pic from google maps

This is the green space, right?

How big of an area is it?

[markbarbera]

a patio up there would be cool.

also, in regards to the indigo thing.. i'd be wicked if this was tied into the idea of having 2 story indigo open up onto james and the city center. it could be at the south end of the mall right beside the jackson connection, and then the second floor extending over the top floor to encompass the existing exit to the JS roof.

Or, it could take over the old Bank of Montreal podium space.

[markbarbera]

It would be a great venue for smaller festivals in the summer.

If memory serves, there used to be summertime Shakespeare productions up on that roof. I think it was called "Shakespeare in the City". Not sure if it still goes on, though.

[MsMe]

What do they plan on doing with the library and market space after the new areas are built?

[block43]

What do they plan on doing with the library and market space after the new areas are built?

THe new area is temporary space while the market is being renovated.

[matt602]

Or, it could take over the old Bank of Montreal podium space.

I think, in a roundabout way, that's what he meant without defining it properly. I've certainly enthusiasticlly suggested this one myself at least twice before.

[MsMe]

THe new area is temporary space while the market is being renovated.

oh ok. :)

[markbarbera]

It'll be interesting how the temporary location works out for the Farmer's market. I have a gut feeling that its setup will be quite successful, given its multiple entryways and smooth flow of foot traffic. At any rate, it'll be nice to see that old stretch of the concourse reopened and occupied.

[markk]

During a pass through JS today I noticed a few things:

1. It was bustling -- maybe it was the sunshine...
2. The space being reno'd for the temp market is looking good. Still quite a bit of work to do, but it looked clean and bright. I think this will work well.
3. Sushi on the Run is now exposed and it looking like it will open really soon. It's a nice store front, however, I think they should have gone with larger font for their sign. Just me thou.
4. It looks like Toby's has been reno'd. I haven't eaten there for awhile but it looked nicer/more modern as I passed by. Also they refreshed their outdoor signage which gives them better street presence on King St.

[hmagazine]

I bet ya that Sushi on the run sign will glow so nicely that size won't matter.

Signage is tricky - they aren't trying to stop traffic along a highway. The better the design execution - the more it will attract folks who are walking along there.

One of the biggest mistakes downtowns made were making their signs too large for the scale of the buildings.

See Subway and Money Mart along King as perfect examples.

[omro]

Quickly scuttled through JS this morning and HCC before heading outside again. While neither are architectural marvels inside or out, I much prefer being inside HCC to JS, one reason.... natural light!

[Millstone]

Quickly scuttled through JS this morning and HCC before heading outside again. While neither are architectural marvels inside or out, I much prefer being inside HCC to JS, one reason.... natural light!

Just got out of there a few minutes ago, looks like that electronics guy by the elevator got himself some more space.

Oh and don't be fooled by the "home decor" place by the lotto booth, the "GOING OUT OF BUSINESS SALE - 70% OFF" signs increment by 10% each month until they fall back down to 50 or so.

[matt602]

I agree that the design of the HCC is much better, but the stores are just downright depressing.

[bornagainbiking]

Wow what a wasted treasure. So much room. I was at a conference at the Sheraton and had a great view of the upper deck.
This is so under utilized. There should be or there will be with all the movement downtown.
maybe have a Festival up there. There could be daily vendors with crafts for the tourists. Sidewalk art. Buskers.
lots of benchs and picnic tables with a regular police patrol presence.
Out door coffee patio with umbrellas.
Hotdog vendors and ice cream stands, Piped in music K-Lite FM.
So much patio so little use.
hey have a outdoor weekend jazz or blues fest with a beer tent.
Maybe have the wing fest up there. :worship:
:yes:

[adam]

I think this kind of thing will happen very soon! Especially once traffic calms down along York after the 2-way conversion. :banana:

[markk]

I agree that the JS rooftop has much under utilized potential. I often spend a few minutes up there to catch some sunshine when taking a break from work.

I think the City should consider doing some additional gardening up there during the spring / summer, even if that meant doing less in some other areas in the city. I've always thought that if it was a little greener and looked more like a park it might attract additional people up there. Also, it could even see some type of seasonal cafe or food vendor take interest.

Of note, it looks like Toby's is adding a street patio on King St. Nothing spectacular, but they've sectioned off a small area with some glass walls. I guess a small patio is better than no patio.

[ryan_mcgreal]

I've always thought that if it was a little greener and looked more like a park it might attract additional people up there.

What would attract additional people up to the JS roof would be a reason to go there - either passing through on the way to a destination or as a destination itself.

The main problem is that the JS roof, like the megablock itself, was specifically designed to be segregated from the street - elevated walkways and all. It was designed by people who hated and feared the city, with its hodgepodge of mixed uses and serendipitous connections.

Successful places in cities are crossroads: places where people come into contact over the course of their travels and undertake exchanges. That's why it's so important to cultivate pedestrian friendly streets, since streets are where people connect.

The JS roof is deliberately and explicitly removed from the continuum of urban street life. Unless it functions as a viable destination in itself (and no amount of landscaping is going to draw real crowds), it will never function as a successful public space.

[highwater]

:previous:

Took the words right out of my mouth. And then exchanged them for better words. And fleshed out my thoughts. Nice work, Ryan. ;)

[BrianE]

Just putting up a large sign above the King and James entrance that says: Hey! there's a park up here!
would quadruple the number of people that would use it.

Sometimes people need a reminder that certain features are there, even though they pass them everyday. Or in 95% of people who work in the area they need to be informed that there is a park on the roof in the first place. I'm guessing that most people don't even know what's up there.

[markk]

Makes sense Ryan. I guess my rooftop park idea was more of a daydream I had up there recently over a coffee and some morning sun.

The view from my office peers down on a part of the JS rooftop, and I can't help but think that with some innovative thinking this under-used part of the core could add to the uniqueness of our city -- rather than sit vacant, elevated, and segregated from the street... Currently, the term 'high and dry' comes to mind.

[SteelTown]

Get rid of it. There's plenty of space in the core for another urban plaza. Install skylights to brighten JS.

[bornagainbiking]

I was just reminded on another topic to not always look at changing things, like the old vs renovated farmer's market.
So look at the court for what it is a refuge or like central park in the middle of new york a change.
So enbrace it as a quiet place to read, suntan or visit in the middle of all the rustle and bustle.
Like mentioned green it up LEED it with roof solar panels that provide solar lighting or spot lights for an evening cool off area.
plug in a noise box and have outdoor yoga or free dancerize, thi chi
partner up with Good life.
Mark and measure a walking route and people can to laps at lunch. Put up a huge bike parking area or locker so local employees have a safe place out of sight to park their bike.
use it don't lose it.
Everyone complained about that cheap resting area about 100 m away near the Lister.
maybe organize a flower planting for this area. I bet Bob Bratina would ask parks and rec for help and flowers

[ryan_mcgreal]

I can't help but think that with some innovative thinking this under-used part of the core could add to the uniqueness of our city

I'm completely with you on that. Here's an article I wrote four years ago (has it been that long!?) with a few ideas for King West/Jackson Square:

http://raisethehammer.org/article/101

[highwater]

maybe organize a flower planting for this area.

Go for it!

[drpgq]

Anyone know what's going on in the space besides Coco?

[drpgq]

It's our city's biggest secret;

The rooftop of Jackson Square is a great place when it's busy
June 24, 2009
Paul Wilson
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jun 24, 2009)

It is downtown Hamilton's secret park and it's a big one. Bigger than that postage stamp they call Gore Park.

This secret park can hold thousands with ease, but hardly ever gets the chance.

Last Friday, however, this lonely place saw a crowd. About 3,500 filed onto the rooftop of Jackson Square to shout out loud that it's time Hamilton got an NHL team.

A chopper shot the big picture. A phalanx of TV cameras captured the action up close.

But on the street below, not the faintest hint of the frenzy above.

And that's the issue with the Jackson Square plaza. It's right in the middle of the core, but not part of it.

The space is vast, stretching from Bay to James, King to York. Superblock, they once called it.

And long ago, city planners believed this elevated plain would always bustle like it did last Friday.

It was the 1970s and floating about was a planning concept called the 'Plus-15 pedestrian circulation system.' It was brought on by, what else, the automobile.

The idea was that cars could have the ground level, roaring about without interruption from pedestrians.

Citizens on foot would be out of the way, 15 feet above, on plazas with cafes, shops, rest areas. These areas would be linked by a network of bridges.

There were to be 10 such bridges in downtown Hamilton. For instance, a couple across Main: one from the Art Gallery plaza to city hall, another from the Pigott Building to the old Bank of Montreal.

And a couple to Gore Park: one from Jackson Square, another from the Convention Centre.

New construction was supposed to reflect this plan, which is why the main entrance to the Art Gallery ended up on the second floor, where no one could find it.

As it turned out, Hamilton had neither the money nor the stomach for a full Plus-15 plan.

By the early 1990s, the city's planning department began to fear Plus-15 was misguided. Plucking people from the streets would just make downtown Hamilton more barren than it already was.

But the rooftop plaza of Jackson Square was already there. Thousands upon thousands of interlocking bricks had been laid, sod unrolled, trees planted.

And all that has been the domain of Yale Properties, owners of Jackson Square, since the mall opened in 1972.

Vivien Johnson, mall manager, has been around from the beginning. And last Friday, she stood on a rooftop over the offices of Tripcentral.ca and looked out to the hockey rally. She had never seen so many there.

"When people get up here for the first time and see the trees and grass and flowers and fountain, they're always amazed," Johnson says.

So why don't more people use this place? "It's a level up from the street," she says. "You can't see it."

The big plaza is a major maintenance item for the mall. There is cleaning, lawn maintenance, repair of leaks, graffiti removal, removal of the odd swimmer from the pool.

Through the decades, Johnson says, they have tried their best to get people to climb those stairs.

Long ago, the World Arm Wrestling Championships were held on the plaza. When it was the rage, Levi-Strauss held jean-painting contests up there. And when there were still record stores in the mall, A & A brought bands to play there. During the world bike championships six years ago, art was made and sold there.

Liaison College is holding barbecue classes on the plaza. And there are 5,000 people working on Superblock -- sometimes there are staff picnics on the plaza.

In summer, there's a concert series. Urban theatre too.

And next week, the Sheraton will be host hotel for the Latvian Song Festival of Canada. Arrangements have been made for the event to spill out onto the plaza.

But it's all fleeting. When summer goes, the plaza falls dormant again.

For most of the year, there's just no good reason to be there. The people are where they were meant to be, 15 feet below.

StreetBeat appears Monday. Wednesday and Friday

pwilson@thespec.com

905-526-3391

It was the 1970s and floating about was a planning concept called the 'Plus-15 pedestrian circulation system.' ... Citizens on foot would be out of the way, 15 feet above, on plazas with cafes, shops, rest areas. These areas would be linked by a network of bridges.

[markbarbera]

This plaza would be perfect to host a summertime festival of some flavour. Maybe a concert series. There was Shakespeake performances up here a while back.

Why not set up county-fair style amusements for a couple weeks? How about an outdoor book festival? Local food festival? Open air market once a week? Lots of possibilities.

[FRM]

How about a skating rink in the winter? Add nice lighting like the nathan philips square and people 15ft. below will notice and be curious to find out what's happening up there and more ! :)

[omro]

Shame they can't just bulldoze JS and start again.

However, I must endeavour to go up the stairs and see the roof terrace.

[Millstone]

'Plus-15 pedestrian circulation system.' pretty typical demonstration on how they marginalized pedestrians in those days.

[astroblaster]

Shame they can't just bulldoze JS and start again.


Shame they can't just unbulldoze the beautiful commercial blocks, street walls, open air market and victorian city hall building that were there in the first place

[omro]

I know, wtf were they thinking?!

[Jon Dalton]

During the last art crawl me, astroblaster and drpgq were on the jackson square roof as the Artopia show was winding down around midnight. In a space normally deserted or filled with punks, we looked over King and James with dj music pumping and people milling about. It was an unusual juxtaposition of nightlife seemingly transplanted from Toronto or Montreal with the backdrop of the glass CIBC towers, One James and Gore Park. Maybe it was the alcohol, but I thought for minute I had seen a glimpse of redemption for this woeful expression of 1970's antiurban megalomania. Now, how to make that happen more than once a year?

[omro]

During the last art crawl me, astroblaster and drpgq were on the jackson square roof as the Artopia show was winding down around midnight. In a space normally deserted or filled with punks, we looked over King and James with dj music pumping and people milling about. It was an unusual juxtaposition of nightlife seemingly transplanted from Toronto or Montreal with the backdrop of the glass CIBC towers, One James and Gore Park. Maybe it was the alcohol, but I thought for minute I had seen a glimpse of redemption for this woeful expression of 1970's antiurban megalomania. Now, how to make that happen more than once a year?

Well perhaps an open air bar? with music? That's the summer months anyway.

I had wanted to see the Artopia, but I had to get up early the next day :-(

I do like these Art Crawl/SSP get togethers, hope more people from the forum come along to the next one.

[highwater]

During the last art crawl me, astroblaster and drpgq were on the jackson square roof as the Artopia show was winding down around midnight. In a space normally deserted or filled with punks, we looked over King and James with dj music pumping and people milling about. It was an unusual juxtaposition of nightlife seemingly transplanted from Toronto or Montreal with the backdrop of the glass CIBC towers, One James and Gore Park. Maybe it was the alcohol, but I thought for minute I had seen a glimpse of redemption for this woeful expression of 1970's antiurban megalomania. Now, how to make that happen more than once a year?

Sounds like one of those happy combos of alcohol/atmosphere/mindfulness.

We attended one of the Shakespeare plays back in the day. The atmosphere was wonderful, but the play was so horrifically bad my eyes are bleeding just thinking about it. If they put some good summer theatre up there, it could be wonderful.

[highwater]

Also, I kinda like JS. It's a shame when you think about what was lost, but now that we have JS, I think we should make the best of it. It's actually a handsome building. If you look at it from King William, where it meets the HCC, you can see that it is an honest International Style building. Unlike the HCC which is a dishonest piece of PoMo shite. If anything should be levelled, it's the HCC.

[ryan_mcgreal]

I know, wtf were they thinking?!

Pardon My Lunch Bucket author David Proulx tells us they thought they were "cutting away the rot of the Victorian age." In its place:

the 26-story [sic] Stelco Tower, rising 330 feet, a four-storey banking pavilion, an enclosed shopping concourse, a two-acre landscaped plaza, two movie theatres with a total of 1,200 seats and underground parking for more than 250 cars... followed by ... a major shopping centre, an addition to the shopping concourse, a 24-storey office tower, a 400-500-room hotel, a department store extension, five apartment towers with 800 units, more underground parking and an enlarged plaza.

Added to that will be the city's $10,000,000 theatre-auditorium ... a trade-convention centre, new art gallery, new main library and new farmers' market. Pedestrians will cross over major streets on elevated walk ways, high above the noise and fumes of traffic while most of the projects will be interconnected by underground and concourse level walkways. [empasis added] (David Proulx, Pardon My Lunch Bucket, Corporation of the City of Hamilton, 1971)

Proulx's shiny future is our grim present. His "two-acre landscaped plaza" ranks among the blandest destinations in Hamilton. There is nothing to see on the Jackson Square Plaza: no compelling architecture, no art, no storefronts, no cafés. Aside from smokers and the occasional free concert, the Plaza is an urban dead zone.

[SteelTown]

You could add Taj Mahal to the roof and still people won't know it's up there. Everything up there is taken away from the street.

Should just close it up and add skylights. Focus at King William and Rebecca for an urban plaza, it's only been on the planning book for 10 years or so.

[omro]

Proulx's shiny future is our grim present. His "two-acre landscaped plaza" ranks among the blandest destinations in Hamilton. There is nothing to see on the Jackson Square Plaza: no compelling architecture, no art, no storefronts, no cafés. Aside from smokers and the occasional free concert, the Plaza is an urban dead zone.

Is there anyway to add these missing items? To some how create shopping and cafés on this level?

Alternately, how about losing the plaza? Taking it up, so the roof is removed from the floors below, allowing the dark JS shopping below to be given natural light and the ability to be built upwards into a two floor modern shopping centre with bigger, brighter and better units?

[markk]

Good article and discussion on the JS rooftop. I'm pretty interested in this area of the city due to the proximity of where I work (my office peers down on this space).

My thought is that every city tends to have planning mistakes, and this is certainly a big one for Hamilton. The suggestions above are good ones, but has Yale properties ever even hinted at changes or reno's ? ... I wonder if they are happy with letting the roof sit as is, rather than spend any money to improve our downtown.

One vision I have for the JS roof, hinges on getting a hockey team. Should this ever happen, the roof could be become a decent space for pre-game festivities, screening games, and other team related events.

That said, I'd be equally pleased with JS closing the roof (even just portions of it) and adding skylights and more multi-story stores.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Is there anyway to add these missing items? To some how create shopping and cafés on this level?

I'm sure it's possible with some imagination and commitment from Yale, but as I wrote earlier in this thread (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4222822&postcount=55), the underlying problem is baked into the design: the JS roof today is engineered to be segregated from the pathways that people take through the city.

I don't know that the answer is to eliminate it entirely. Too often in Hamilton we try to fix problems by wiping the slate clean (cf. Jackson Square) instead of finding ways to make the existing structures work better.

[omro]

I'm sure it's possible with some imagination and commitment from Yale, but as I wrote earlier in this thread (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4222822&postcount=55), the underlying problem is baked into the design: the JS roof today is engineered to be segregated from the pathways that people take through the city.

I don't know that the answer is to eliminate it entirely. Too often in Hamilton we try to fix problems by wiping the slate clean (cf. Jackson Square) instead of finding ways to make the existing structures work better.

I'm still somewhat in favour of a freak meteor strike levelling the entire area from Main, Bay, York, James (somehow missing the corner Main, McNab, King, James).

However, since I'm not on great terms with God at the moment to request a good bit of fire and brimstone, that's why I suggested taking out the plaza and probably the shopping centre below and using that space as a shell to build a modern mall within. Essentially a "slot in".

How much of the shopping centre is under what is the JS Plaza and what else is under the plaza? As I understand it, the surrounding elements are free standing to a degree, so work on the plaza and beneath it would be of minimal disruption to them.

If City Mall moves back to City Hall, the JS stores could move into HCC temporarily while JS internally was being refurbished and rebuilt.

[omro]

I'm sure it's possible with some imagination and commitment from Yale, but as I wrote earlier in this thread (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4222822&postcount=55), the underlying problem is baked into the design: the JS roof today is engineered to be segregated from the pathways that people take through the city.

That's not a huge issue if you're taking the whole roof out and what's underneath out and inserting into that space a two level mall. There are multiple access points to the current JS Mall from street level and the parking zones. From the inside there will be escalators and elevators, so it'll be no different from any other two level mall.

[ryan_mcgreal]

That's not a huge issue if you're taking the whole roof out and what's underneath out and inserting into that space a two level mall. There are multiple access points to the current JS Mall from street level and the parking zones. From the inside there will be escalators and elevators, so it'll be no different from any other two level mall.

Jackson Square itself is designed to be segregated from its surroundings (the rooftop is just a reflection of this overarching mentality).

I'd rather see JS punched open at as many points as possible all around the block. At a bare minimum, every store against an exterior wall should have a prominent street presence (like, y'know, windows) and a direct entrance onto the street.

This is slo-o-o-owly starting to happen with a few restaurant patios and one or two stores (e.g. Grand and Toy); and the redevelopment of the Library and especially the Farmers' Market will really make that stretch of the megablock more permeable.

Perhaps the worst offender is the Hamilton City Centre (formerly the Eaton Centre), which is not only largely impermeable but also cloaked in a teeth-gnashingly cartoony facade, complete with a fake clock tower and fake flags.

If I'm reading the building correctly, the stores on the main level aren't even level with the street, so it would be very difficult to have street-level access to whatever happens to occupy the space (all the more reason it should persist as offices once the City moves out).

[omro]

HCC is a prime candidate for bulldozing.

If you took out JS Plaza and thus opened up the roof and scooped out what was on the level below, then you'd be able to insert a two level mall with tons of light into that existing shell. That wouldn't in anyway stop the streetwall from being redeveloped and would allow for a much lighter, brighter, bigger shopping experience downtown.

[rousseau]

What if there were a wide, curving ramp at a gentle grade going from the street in the vicinity of King and James up to the rooftop? I mean, maybe you'd have to take out some of the first floor retail space to accommodate it, but then perhaps you could have shops with front doors going into them along the one side of the ramp?

Maybe this would make the rooftop appear more inviting. Of course, to really make it a success you'd have to have more shops up there, as someone else mentioned in this thread.

[adam]

Or they could put windows and doors in and have a few steps leading up to each entrance..

[flar]

What if there were a wide, curving ramp at a gentle grade going from the street in the vicinity of King and James up to the rooftop? I mean, maybe you'd have to take out some of the first floor retail space to accommodate it, but then perhaps you could have shops with front doors into them along the one side of the ramp?

Maybe this would make the rooftop appear more inviting. Of course, to really make it a success you'd have to have more shops up there.

The wide stairway right beside the main entrance at King and James leads up there, but there are always a bunch of "street-involved youths" sitting on the steps, so people are scared to go up there.


Still, there is no reason to go up there...

[SteelTown]

There's the proposed "Grand Stair-Way" from York to the Jackson Square rooftop. It's a case study. Basically demolish the Goodlife building and build a giant ramp.

[SteelTown]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Appster/Grandstairway.jpg

[astroblaster]

During the last art crawl me, astroblaster and drpgq were on the jackson square roof as the Artopia show was winding down around midnight. In a space normally deserted or filled with punks, we looked over King and James with dj music pumping and people milling about. It was an unusual juxtaposition of nightlife seemingly transplanted from Toronto or Montreal with the backdrop of the glass CIBC towers, One James and Gore Park. Maybe it was the alcohol, but I thought for minute I had seen a glimpse of redemption for this woeful expression of 1970's antiurban megalomania. Now, how to make that happen more than once a year?

This was magic, I agree. I don't think it was the booze. This place was vibrant that night. If stuff happened there regularly, the space wouldn't be half bad. But nothing happens up there.

Highwater, Jon Dalton, I agree, we should work with what we've got. Dreaming and whining about bad planning decisions isn't going to help us that much in the short term.

I think a good first step would be for this space to be used in someway that coincides with the art crawls.

Is anyone in contact with the people who ran ARTOPIA? That might be a good place to start the conversation.

[omro]

I went onto the roof of JS today and I have to say I thought it all a little bit sad. It fails as a useful space on so many levels. It's not attractive as a park. It's not structured for gatherings. It's not is attractive environs. It was just a smokers oasis.

I'm now convinced. Take it out. Block off/bulldose the stairs ways. Open up the roof. Insert a modern, large, light bright two storey mall in it's place, giving tons of natural light to the areas below. Bulldoze HCC once the council move out.

However, I'm still with my earlier freak meteorite strike idea from earlier in the thread, but since that won't happen, best to make do a bit of alternative thinking for the existing building.

[SteelTown]

Admit mistake - time to demall downtown

July 04, 2009
TERRY COOKE
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Discover/article/594177

Maybe we should just tear down Jackson Square and concede that building a suburban mall smack in the middle of downtown was a bad idea in the first place.

Pondering that possibility is an admission that the 1960s Urban Renewal Program has failed to deliver any of its promised benefits to Hamilton.

That type of transformation is exactly what is happening in downtown Rochester, New York. It is a city similar to Hamilton in many ways, and therefore local planners and civic leaders might want to pay attention to what they are doing.

We took our three kids there last week to visit the National Museum of Play in downtown Rochester. It is simply the best children's museum in this part of the world and we had a wonderful adventure.

During our stay, we were astonished by how much the place looked and felt like Hamilton.

I was also intrigued by the city's attempts to turn back the clock on their own unhappy experience with urban renewal.

Rochester, like Hamilton, is a mature industrial city perched on the shore of Lake Ontario. They too have relied economically on a couple of major employers (Kodak and Xerox) that have been in decline for several decades.

Each city has made some headway at diversification, focusing heavily on post-secondary education, the knowledge sector and a vibrant arts scene.

Both cities still have great inner city neighborhoods, and many downtown architectural treasures with tons of potential for adaptive reuse.

But the suburbanization of the two cities in the past few decades has decimated retail activity in each city core.

Urban renewal came a little earlier to Rochester than it did here. Rochester opened the first downtown indoor mall in the United States in 1962. Like Jackson Square, their Mid-Town Plaza was hailed at the time as a planning marvel that would reverse the decline of the core by providing climate-controlled comfort and lots of parking to the shopping public.

But lo and behold, middle-class shoppers looking for chain store stuff and free parking continued to opt for malls closer and more convenient to the suburbs where they now lived. And conversely, those niche retailers who historically thrived on downtown pedestrian traffic watched their businesses shrivel, as much of that action got sucked into the indoor malls.

Now, more than 50 years later, the city of Rochester is going back to the future. The financially failing Mid-Town Plaza is being demolished to return downtown to a traditional grid pattern of smaller block streets, which will accommodate new office towers, housing developments and storefront retail.

And they are also considering excavating and rewatering the historic Erie Canal, which was decked over in downtown Rochester decades ago for highway construction. It now presents a unique opportunity to create an authentic tourist draw for restaurants and hotels similar to the famous Riverwalk in San Antonio, Texas.

Given the painfully slow pace of progress in Hamilton on relatively easy and inexpensive changes like one-way street conversions, I am not sure if we have either the political will or the wallet to consider anything as radical as Rochester. Plus we have a rather full civic plate pursuing a Light Rail Transit System and a Pan Am Games bid.

But urban experiments like the demalling of downtown Rochester are happening all over North America and show real potential to renew older cities.

Part of that process involves admitting some of the planning mistakes of the past and debating how we can best correct them, not only in Rochester but also here in Hamilton.

[rousseau]

Without meaning to be counterintuitive just for the sake of it, can I throw something out here? I think in Canada we need largish climate-controlled spaces due to our winter, there's just no getting around it. When I see older folks spending time in the library and then going over to either of the food courts, I see it as a good thing.

No?

[BCTed]

Without meaning to be counterintuitive just for the sake of it, can I throw something out here? I think in Canada we need largish climate-controlled spaces due to our winter, there's just no getting around it. When I see older folks spending time in the library and then going over to either of the food courts, I see it as a good thing.

No?

Agreed. I quite like the whole Jackson Square/City Centre/farmer's market/library/hotel/office tower/building setup.

I do not believe that razing Jackson Square would somehow directly lead to "new office towers, housing developments and storefront retail." There is already room for that stuff even with Jackson Square in place and it is just not happening. The Midtown Plaza is being demolished because there are already plans in place for a new complex to occupy that space --- it is not being demolished strictly for the sake of de-malling. There are no guarantees that this project will work as hoped, as the scale of the new complex seems to be continually ratcheted down.

Look at Toronto, where the Eaton Centre seems to be doing just fine. And much of the city's downtown is connected by the PATH network of shops and services which also seems to be working very well and is a great way of getting from one area to another without getting wet or being exposed to extreme cold.

Also, a couple of nitpicky things. The complex is the "Midtown", not the "Mid-Town." Given that it was built in 1962, now is not "more than 50 years later."

[bigguy1231]

Without meaning to be counterintuitive just for the sake of it, can I throw something out here? I think in Canada we need largish climate-controlled spaces due to our winter, there's just no getting around it. When I see older folks spending time in the library and then going over to either of the food courts, I see it as a good thing.

No?

I tend to agree with your thoughts on this issue. I know that seniors sure raised a ruckus when it was announced that the Mountain Plaza Mall would be razed for a big box center. It has acted as a community center for many seniors. Both of my parents used to go their daily. They would have their coffee, meet with friends do a little shopping. It's too bad it will all be gone later this summer.
As for Jackson Square, I think Yale properties would have something to say about it before the city could ever hope to raze it. So the issue is really a non issue.

[bornagainbiking]

Just a thought.
There is the old city hall vs city mall discussion.
Is there a way to renovate the city centre into condos or senior housing and it would be like a inner city village.
Morning walks. the farmers market and library and the upper deck for the summer or put in a partial atrium for winter and rain.:yes:

[bigguy1231]

Just a thought.
There is the old city hall vs city mall discussion.
Is there a way to renovate the city centre into condos or senior housing and it would be like a inner city village.
Morning walks. the farmers market and library and the upper deck for the summer or put in a partial atrium for winter and rain.:yes:

If you want to bring alot of people into the area, convert the mall into a Wal-mart. Like it or not it would be a huge catalyst for commercial and residential developement in the area.

[omro]

If you want to bring alot of people into the area, convert the mall into a Wal-mart. Like it or not it would be a huge catalyst for commercial and residential developement in the area.

While I'm still inclined to feel that the city missed a trick when it decided not to buy the HCC, I don't agree with the wal-mart idea.

It's lowest common denominator thinking, which is all very well and good, but Hamilton's town centre, with its mix of dollar stores, payday loans, discount clothing, and similar store frontage already caters for that and what a brilliant job that's doing of making the town centre a draw for people with more money to spend. We need to raise the bar in the downtown, not keep it low.

You have to remember that certain types of people attract certain types of people and those same types of people repel others. The more low income people you have in one place as a cluster, the fewer moderate to high income people will go there.

For JS to succeed as a mall, it needs to have a major facelift, both inside and out. It needs to be a proper mall, with a wider range of names and brands. Limeridge is the most successful mall in the area, no? Look at the diversity of names and brands there vs JS. JS needs to be bigger and brighter inside, I still like my idea of taking out the roof terrace park and slotting in a two storey modern mall with lots of skylights. JS needs to be closed, emptied, gutted, redone, new tenants attracted and relaunched. A full scale relaunch has often done wonders for brands and shops.

Since that might never happen, perhaps there could be a way to even have small boutique spaces initially (HCC anyone?) representing those brands that people normally find in malls, to encourage people to go there from the downtown rather than going to Limeridge. Perhaps these could offer, beyond just a limited selection on display, a some way to see more of the clothing range and have it delivered there to collect (catalogue shopping is very popular in the UK, Tesco introduced catalogue shopping at most of it's larger stores, order one day, come back and collect with your next shop).

Another UK example, this Mall (https://www.thegalleria.co.uk/home.aspx) (Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_galleria,_Hatfield)) failed miserably as a classic Mall. Total flop. I can remember going there when it was a Mall, it was dead, no one could be bothered to go there, because it was just too samey. Then is closed, was redeveloped and reopened as a designer outlet centre. It's packed now.

[rousseau]

For JS to succeed as a mall, it needs to have a major facelift, both inside and out...I still like my idea of taking out the roof terrace park and slotting in a two storey modern mall with lots of skylights.
I agree, I think this is a great idea. I also think that a revitalized Jackson Square will have a, sorry to use this word, symbiotic relationship with the neighbouring retail streets--with more people seeing the mall itself as a destination, the whole area wins.

[bigguy1231]

.

It's lowest common denominator thinking, which is all very well and good, but Hamilton's town centre, with its mix of dollar stores, payday loans, discount clothing, and similar store frontage already caters for that and what a brilliant job that's doing of making the town centre a draw for people with more money to spend. We need to raise the bar in the downtown, not keep it low.

You have to remember that certain types of people attract certain types of people and those same types of people repel others. The more low income people you have in one place as a cluster, the fewer moderate to high income people will go there.

.

It may be the lowest common denominator but it's still better than what we have right now. To suggest that Wal-Mart only attracts those on the low end of the economic scale is elitest and just pure snobbery. If you look around and see where they locate Wal-Marts you would see that they are mainly in middle and upper middle class areas of the city. People with money shop at the Wal-Marts of the world, thats why they have money.

If you take a look at where the Wal-Marts are located you will also see large retail complexes that have the higher end retail outlets as well. Success attracts success. Love them or hate them Wal-Mart is a success.

As for Jackson Square, I tend to agree with you, however it is private property and there really is nothing the city can do to compel the owners to upgrade or renovate.

[realcity]

I like JS, the hotel, cinemas, restos, retail, office towers, arena, market, library. It's all good.

Besides you couldn't bulldoze JS without destroying the connection to all those other destinations mentioned. Realize with have 6 months of crap weather. And besides this City thinks 'demalling' means tearing it down and turning it into a Power Center.

Besides there are plenty other high priority areas to focus on.
1. Rebuild York Blvd streetwall
2. Rebuild King West north side
3. Canon St Chinatown
4. De-drive thru Bank of Montreal (Bay & Main)
* I refuse to do any business with BMO because of that stupid bank bldg.