[feepa]

Canada in 2020: East out of the driver's seat, West in the saddle


Gary Lamphier, The Edmonton Journal

Published: 1:33 am
Ferris Bueller, the slick-talking, self-assured high school goof-off played by actor Matthew Broderick in a memorable 1980s teen flick, was right.
Life does move pretty fast.
Just 12 months ago, few economists foresaw a recession in 2008. Now, most agree the global economy is flat on its back.
Likewise, when oil prices soared to $147 US a barrel in July, there wasn't an analyst in sight who predicted crude would plunge below $50 by December. But that's what happened, to the chagrin of people like oil tycoon T. Boone Pickens.
Clearly, in the business world, a lot can change in a week, a month or a year. Just ask the anxious execs at General Motors or Chrysler. To paraphrase Ferris, if you're not careful, you could miss the whole thing.
Now, try to imagine, if you will, what Canada's economy might look like in 2020 -- a dozen years away. A bit cheeky? Of course. But that's what veteran Toronto business journalist and author Gordon Pitts does in his new book, Stampede! The Rise of the West and Canada's New Power Elite.
As the title of the book implies, Pitts sees the continued ascendancy of the West -- led by Alberta and its vast energy wealth -- as a fait accompli, with Central Canada inexorably waning in power and influence.
Pitts fantasizes that a dozen years from now, the Alberta Heritage Fund could hold $100-billion worth of petrodollars; the U of A will have joined the world's elite universities, with a clutch of Nobel Prize winners on its science faculty; and one of Toronto's Big Five banks will have moved its head office to Calgary.
On the flip side, he figures Ontario -- now officially a "have not" province -- will be "on the ropes," with its wealth-generating Big Three auto-assembly plants long gone, displaced by lower-cost operations in places like China and India.
Quebec, which has lost many of its iconic head offices over the years -- Royal Bank, Seagram, Sun Life, Molson, Bank of Montreal, Alcan -- and whose stylish major city, Montreal, has dramatically shrunk in importance, will become "almost irrelevant" on the national stage.
Meanwhile, Newfoundland -- Eastern Canada's rising energy star -- will become a force in its own right, Pitts predicts.
Resource-rich Saskatchewan, with its rich stores of uranium, oil, potash and wheat, will continue to boom. And British Columbia -- Alberta's "complex, shape-shifting" neighbour -- will also prosper, as a playground for Alberta's nouveau riche, and as Canada's Pacific Gateway.
In a world where demand for resources will only continue to grow, says Pitts, Canada's commodity exporting provinces will remain in the driver's seat while the East lags, and that will drive migration westward.
A year ago, when the West was still booming, many would have called Pitts' thesis a no-brainer. To many, it was self-evident. But since the full force of the global economic storm hit, and commodity prices have tanked, the picture seems slightly less clear-cut today.
The mood in Alberta -- like everywhere else -- has changed profoundly in recent months, making some of Pitts' descriptions seem a bit dated.
The powerful Calgary energy bosses and financiers featured in the book -- Suncor's Rick George, CNRL's Murray Edwards, Tristone Capital's George Gosbee, former EnCana boss Gwyn Morgan -- aren't padding their fortunes, or being lionized in the business press as they were a year ago.
Calgary's usual swagger is long gone. Anxious CEOs and CFOs are scaling back their budgets, bracing for a difficult 2009.
With major oilsands projects delayed, exploration programs slashed, cash flows in retreat, stock prices depressed and some of the city's downtown building projects in jeopardy, Calgary is hurting.
The personal wealth of Calgary's big hitters, while still substantial, has also taken a hit, and some of the city's big players -- Nexen, Talisman, Suncor, EnCana, Canadian Natural -- could wind up on the dinner menu once the next big wave of industry consolidation gets rolling.
Long before Canada reaches 2020,
Alberta's marquee energy firms could well disappear, swallowed up by cash-rich, reserve-hungry multinationals such as ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell, and Chevron. Time will tell.
At the same time, the once-lofty loonie has cratered. A year ago, when the loonie soared to $1.10 US, Dutch disease -- a strong currency, triggered by rising oil exports -- was fingered as the key culprit behind Ontario's economic malaise. Now the blame has shifted south, to the embattled U.S. economy.
To his credit, Pitts says Central Canada's troubles can't be blamed on one factor. Its woes include high business operating costs, the lack of a coherent industrial policy, and a chronically poor record on productivity, innovation and building homegrown winners (with a few notable exceptions, such as Waterloo-based tech
giant Research In Motion).
The business culture of the East -- dominated by generations-old family dynasties such as the Thomsons, Irvings, Desmarais, Westons and Molsons -- also suffers from a kind of deadening entitlement atrophy, he says.
Alberta has no such affliction. It's much younger and rougher around the edges, of course. Fortunes that have been made in Calgary's office towers, or in the bland industrial yards of Nisku or Edmonton, seldom date back more than a generation, if that.
Wealth is far more transient, the future is less predetermined, and memories of past booms and busts remain close to the surface.
Alberta's muscular, git-'er-done business culture is also reflected in its urban esthetics, Pitts says. He describes downtown Edmonton as looking "bombed out," although its cultural vitality and "funkiness" makes it far more interesting than the "utilitarian branch-plant boxes" that define Calgary's core.
Combined, Alberta's two big cities -- or "Edgary," as he calls it -- "possess a commercial vitality that is unrivalled in Canada."
This won't come as news to anyone who has read the TD Bank's glowing economic reports on the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor in recent years, but it's true, nonetheless.
In the end, despite the current global economic crisis, and the resulting slowdown in Big Oil country, I think Pitts' central theme remains valid. The West -- led by Alberta -- will remain Canada's economic engine for at least another decade. In many ways, the pie is already baked.
Global demand for fossil fuels, including upgraded bitumen from the oilsands, will remain strong, despite the obvious headwinds now facing the oilpatch.
With production rates falling in Russia, the North Sea and Mexico, and demand still growing in Asia, the world will need Alberta's oil until the age of fossil fuels comes to an end. And that won't happen anytime soon.
One day, prices for oil and natural gas will rebound, as will prices for base metals, uranium and agricultural products. Calgary will regain its swagger, even if some of its major firms disappear, replaced by a new generation of juniors and mid-tier companies.
Edmonton will become a more prominent player on the national stage in its own right, with its own unique identity. It will still be tied to the oil-and-gas industry, but it will be more diverse than Calgary, with vibrant cultural, medical, research and education sectors also playing leading roles.
I'm not so sure Ontario, Canada's traditional economic engine, can be counted out, however. Alberta's success
doesn't have to imply Ontario's failure. Or Quebec's. Or the Maritimes'. Canada's future doesn't have to become a zero-sum game.
Surely, as Pitts himself hopes, Canada can build a portfolio of successful, smart, technologically advanced, knowledge-based industries.
What will it take to get there from here? Smart industrial policy. More research and development. Political will. A culture that supports entrepreneurship. And public awareness that if Canada doesn't make these things happen, the rest of the world will happily eat our lunch.
glamphier@thejournal.canwest.com


http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/business/story.html?id=cef8313e-24e6-47bf-82bb-393673e4ff5a&k=76773

[newflyer]

Canada is a complete nation, where each region will play a large roll in the future.


Personally I think the north will see the largest economic growth in the coming deacdes.

[Nicko999]

Canada is a complete nation, where each region will play a large roll in the future.


Personally I think the north will see the largest economic growth in the coming deacdes.

EXACTLY:tup:

[Mister F]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease

What's happening has nothing to do with Alberta's supposed "git-'er-done business culture" or Ontario's supposed lack of productivity, labels that are easy to give when one region has oil and another doesn't. The dutch disease explains why Ontario didn't have the huge growth that Alberta did over the last few years, but it obviously doesn't explain the current recession.

[Spring2008]

That's quite a few random shots at Calgary there Mr. Envious Edmonton Journal writer.:dancing:

[Rico Rommheim]

Typical, instead of rejoicing that Canada will become a stronger nation with more wealth we're lamenting on the rise of one part at the expense of another. Well I got news for you, the 'west' has been rising since the railroad was first built. Power, wealth, influence has continuously been shifting from east to west in the last 200 years. No big surprise here.

[someone123]

A number of details tend to be swept under the rug with these articles (some already mentioned of course):

-Alberta's economy is hugely based on natural resources. Building a wealthy economy on top of oil and gas these days is not a very big accomplishment - medieval Third World countries manage to do it. If Newfoundland didn't have its offshore industry, the author would be complaining about it.

-Alberta (and all of the West) was created by the East anyway. Many of the people who live there now and supposedly have this amazing can-do attitude come from the other places that are labeled lazy and backwards.

-Alberta is much smaller than either Ontario or Quebec, and the West is much smaller than the East. It is silly for Westerners to have a chip on their shoulder whenever they are not setting the national agenda. Montreal has lost national importance but is still three times the size of Calgary, even if they don't talk about it much on Global News in Edmonton.

[Dmajackson]

Interesting article and well no offense to the author but its obvious that he
s envious of the "Easts" power. BTW i put those in quotations because the Maritimes have no say whatsoever in anything national.

Someone 123's point about the West being created by the East is very true. People don't just change and become "can-does" because they moved West. My brother is in Calgary and he said during the holidays the whole city just "died" because erveryone went back home, to the East.

One other thing the fact that according to the article Alberta's economy is based on natural resources is not a good thing. When the oil/gas disappears or demand runs low the whole economy is going to tank. And the fact that the West is young and has not had a chance to expand into other areas means that when the oil/gas disappears there will be no back-up.

But anyways I also say the NORTH is going to have the most growth. :tup:

[Metro-One]

well BC is number 3 for population, oh yeah! Also Vancouver is more than twice the size of Calgary. Also Vancouver is not all comprised of people from the "East". In fact i know very few people from Eastern Canada here, many people are born here or come from the Pacific Rim. And yes the North will have the largest growth per capita. But where do people draw the line as "the North?" Because northern BC (the port terminals in Prince Rupert, the oil and gas discoveries in and around Fort Nelson and Fort St. John) is also set to have major growth.

Also i have to say as 5th generation Vancouverite i do love the east's delusion that everyone in the west is from Ontario. Seeing how my relatives never lived anywhere in the east, they immigrated directly to the west coast along with millions of others. There are countless people who have moved from BC to Ontario though that my family knows, and they come back here for Christmas. The bottom line is there is always going to be provincial migration in every direction. People tend to move where the money is, nothing new or "East vs. West" about that!

[feepa]

I post these articles not because I believe in them, but because I believe they'll generate the most stir.

Stir on.

[Dmajackson]

"Metro-One" if your were responding to my post I just want to point out that B.C. was never mentioned in my post. I feel bad that you guys are associated with Alberta, it must be embarassing.

Yes in Vancouver many people have not lived in other parts of Canada, the same thing with Toronto in the "East" but in Calgary which i was talking about many people are from NS, NL, and Ont.

One thing i dodn't mention earlier because I wasn't suriprised by it was for a national article they don't mention much about the Maritimes future. They talk a lot about NL, Ont, and Que but the only mention of the Maritimes was the Irving's name. For a lot of readers with family and friends out here one would think they would remember all the parts of Canada.

[MonkeyRonin]

I post these articles not because I believe in them, but because I believe they'll generate the most stir.

So, trolling, basically.

[trueviking]

its funny how 'the west' seems to be defined as alberta.

i hope in 12 years the world isnt so dependant on oil as it is today and our economy wont swing wildly with the world price of that commodity alone as it does now....it will certainly still be valuable, allowing alberta and saskatchewan to continue to prosper, but i hope our economic engine isnt so reliant on petroleum in 2020....new energy sources and tehnologies will hopefully give us a more balanced economy nationwide.

thinking that alberta will ever replace ontario as the economic engine of canada is ridiculous.

[vid]

I hope Northwestern Ontario is included in this west. I know it's included in Superstore's west! :)

[kool maudit]

Montreal has lost national importance but is still three times the size of Calgary, even if they don't talk about it much on Global News in Edmonton.


nearly four.

[feepa]

So, trolling, basically.

not truly trolling. I start my own threads. Trolling would be more going into other topics, and trying to ruin them. Also, my topics are more conversationally on-topic. Maybe call it Advanced Trolling 303:frog:

and what can I say - I like a good debate.

[Dmajackson]

You know what I just realized. There are technically six provinces in the "East" and four provinces in the "West". So I think to balance them out we should give the West Ontario since the article seems to show their envy of the "East" which is almost always Ontario according to the author. :)

I'm sorry Ontario but if you are going to be poor we don't want you. :(

[SpongeG]

"Metro-One" if your were responding to my post I just want to point out that B.C. was never mentioned in my post. I feel bad that you guys are associated with Alberta, it must be embarassing.

Yes in Vancouver many people have not lived in other parts of Canada, the same thing with Toronto in the "East" but in Calgary which i was talking about many people are from NS, NL, and Ont.

One thing i dodn't mention earlier because I wasn't suriprised by it was for a national article they don't mention much about the Maritimes future. They talk a lot about NL, Ont, and Que but the only mention of the Maritimes was the Irving's name. For a lot of readers with family and friends out here one would think they would remember all the parts of Canada.

does the maritimes even have a future?

kidding

[Metro-One]

I think it is the wording that confuses me, when people say "the west" i think of BC, hence being the most western province. In Vancouver the west is BC, the Prairies are Alberta to Manitoba, the East / Central Canada are Ontario and Quebec and the East Coast / Maritimes are Nova Scotia, PEI, New Brunswick and Newfoundland. (And we all now who is the North).

[Prairie Guy]

I think it is the wording that confuses me, when people say "the west" i think of BC, hence being the most western province. In Vancouver the west is BC, the Prairies are Alberta to Manitoba, the East / Central Canada are Ontario and Quebec and the East Coast / Maritimes are Nova Scotia, PEI, New Brunswick and Newfoundland. (And we all now who is the North).

But apparently there is a "new west", which doesn't include Manitoba. So as of now, the "new" west consists of BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan, and NOT Manitoba.

We are our own entity ;)

[Dmajackson]

Yah thats the problem with Canada really this country is soo big that theres always arguments over who is in what region. Well from the East Coast perspective its something like this;

West Coast - All of BC and sometimes Alberta
Central - Alberta, Sask, Manitoba
East/Upper/South - Windsor-Montreal area
Quebec - well sort of obvious
Maritimes - NS, NB, PEI (and Iles de Madelines, Gaspe Peninsula sometimes)
Newfoundland/The "Rock" - Island of Newfoundland

And well the North is obvious but when its rarely brought up in conversation Labrador is usually thought of as being part of the territories.

For me personally I think of Alberta as being in Western Canada or out west but not normally on the West Coast.

EDIT: Heres an easy way of seeing how I think of Canada. Just look at the time zones. Theres PST, MST, CST, EST, AST and NST and just add in a new spot for the territories and thats how i think of it.

[SpongeG]

we prefer to say Cascadia :)

the Vancouver Sun has a section devoted to "Cascadia" news

usually includes local news from BC, Alberta, Washington and Oregon

[Xelebes]

Alberta is grouped in Cascadia? Alberta is definitely in the Cordillera (along with the Yukon) but Cascadia?

[SpongeG]

in the vancouver sun it is

its just a newspaper section

but if cascadia were to happen than no alberta would not be part of it i guess

but idaho is i think

[Dmajackson]

Alberta is grouped in Cascadia? Alberta is definitely in the Cordillera (along with the Yukon) but Cascadia?

Okay I've heard of Cascadia before (mountain range isn't it?) but what is the Cordillera?

As for here I guess NS is part of Maritimes, East Coast, Acadia, and well the big one is Atlantica.

[SpongeG]

Cascadia is the name given to a wanna be country composed of BC, Washington State, Oregon and part of california, part of alaska - and perhaps Idaho and part of alberta

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f6/Cascadia_extreme.jpg/180px-Cascadia_extreme.jpg
from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement))

[Dmajackson]

Okay you still haven't answered what Cordillera is but along with being the wannabe country isn't Cascadia the local mountain range?

So if I'm not mistaken Cascadia is similar to Atlantica/Acadia?

Atlantica is a local group that wants to in the immediate future create a free-trade agreement of sorts but in the long run it has been proposed as a future nation by other groups.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Atlantica.PNG
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantica_(trade_zone))

Acadia has similar boundaries as the Atlantica proposal but the group(s) who are fighting for this want a independant nation as well.

[Metro-One]

The western cordillera is a term used in geography. A cordillera refers to an extensive chain of mountain ranges. The Western Cordillera in North America stretches from Alaska to Mexico and as far east as the Rockies, which are the oldest mountains of the Western Cordillera. It starts where the mountains rise out of the Pacific and essentially ends where the Prairies and Great Plains begin.

[Dmajackson]

Thanks "Metro-One" :)

So are there three different mountain ranges in BC/AB? So far I know of the Rockies, Cascadia and Cordilleria.

I've learned more tonight that i did in a whole year of Canadian Geography class. :haha:

[Metro-One]

There are many mountain ranges in BC, just for a quick example the more famous ranges are The Cascades, The Coast Mountains, The Bugaboos and the Rockies (which are shared with Alberta). There are many others though.

[401_King]

lol at the prediction of a bank moving to calgary. there was no basis about this move in the article. none!

if a bank is going to move to calgary, they will ALL move to calgary. banks need each other to profit. it makes no sense for a single bank to just move.

since i work in a bank and see how this works day to day my prediction is------none of them will move to calgary. ever. fundamentally, banks are built to profit on small spreads, loans and comissions for clients. for instance, if you look at the top 100 richest people in canada, only a few are from calgary. the rest are from montreal and toronto. why would a bank move its entire operation away from the dependence from the other banks needed to profit, to an area with only a few people with real wealth and an economy built on a single price of a commodity largely controlled outside of alberta. the top100 its in ?mcleans magazine? or something i saw a week ago fyi

[Metro-One]

:previous: There are some top 100 in Vancouver too just to let you know, but i guess we are not really Canada anymore. Also Alberta must have some local bank franchises that could grow. Even Vancouver / BC has Vancity Bank and the Savings and Credit Union of British Columbia.

[Nathan]

lol at the prediction of a bank moving to calgary. there was no basis about this move in the article. none!

if a bank is going to move to calgary, they will ALL move to calgary. banks need each other to profit. it makes no sense for a single bank to just move.

since i work in a bank and see how this works day to day my prediction is------none of them will move to calgary. ever. fundamentally, banks are built to profit on small spreads, loans and comissions for clients. for instance, if you look at the top 100 richest people in canada, only a few are from calgary. the rest are from montreal and toronto. why would a bank move its entire operation away from the dependence from the other banks needed to profit, to an area with only a few people with real wealth and an economy built on a single price of a commodity largely controlled outside of alberta. the top100 its in ?mcleans magazine? or something i saw a week ago fyi

After reading your comment, then looking at this listing, it's kind of amazing how many of the people aren't from Toronto and Montreal.

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/after_hours/article.jsp?content=20071128_205745_2952

[koops65]

:previous: Four are from Toronto (including the top 3), two are from Waterloo, one from Montreal, one from Vancouver, one from St. John, and one living in (or from?) the States. That makes 60% of the 10 richest from Ontario.

[Metro-One]

Vancouver in at 10 of the top 100. So that still makes 401_king's comment incorrect that only a few are from calgary and the rest from Toronto or Montreal, i saw them from coast to coast. Montreal has 15 of the top 100, so that puts Vancouver at 2/3rds of Montreal, which is funny because Vancouver's population is roughly 2/3rds of Montreal's.

[Dmajackson]

From all of the Maritimes only six people were one the list and they are all very notable names locally. Especially the Irvings which were listed in a seperate article as being the most influencial Atlantic Canadian businessmen/women ever. Not a single person listed was from PEI.

And despite what may seem logical not a single one of the Maritime companies on the list are located in Halifax's CBD. Except for Clearwater (Halifax suburb of Bedford) and Irving (Saint John) none of the Maritime companies are located in cities. The most successsful companies I find come from small towns like Oxford (Eastlink, Oxford Frozen Foods) or Florenceville (McCain Foods).

[Nicko999]

After reading your comment, then looking at this listing, it's kind of amazing how many of the people aren't from Toronto and Montreal.

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/after_hours/article.jsp?content=20071128_205745_2952

4 from Toronto, 2 from Waterloo, 1 from Montreal, 1 from Saint-John, 1 in California

8/10 on that list are from the "East"
Only 1 person is from the "West"(Not counting the US guy)
0 for Alberta:rolleyes:

[Xelebes]

AB: 10 (Sum: 13.29 billion) 8.1%
BC: 12 (Sum: 14.5 billion) 8.8%
MB: 2 (Sum: 2.94 billion) 1.8%
NB: 2 (Sum: 9.22 billion) 5.6%
NS: 4 (Sum: 3.8 billion) 2.3%
ON: 38 (Sum: 80.02 billion) 48.8%
PQ: 18 (Sum: 25.25 billion) 15.4%
OUT: 14 (Sum: 15.1 billion) 9.2%
TOT: 100 (164.12 billion) 100%

[Metro-One]

4 from Toronto, 2 from Waterloo, 1 from Montreal, 1 from Saint-John, 1 in California

8/10 on that list are from the "East"
Only 1 person is from the "West"(Not counting the US guy)
0 for Alberta


I think you failed to see the rest of the 90, also you failed to mention Jimmy as #6 from Vancouver. Instead of saying east west you could also say 6 of those are from Ontario, 1 from British Columbia, 1 from Quebec, 1 from New Brunswick and 1 out of Country. Again looking at the stats above per capita BC and Quebec appear to be on par with each other.

[craneSpotter]

AB: 10 (Sum: 13.29 billion) 8.1%
BC: 12 (Sum: 14.5 billion) 8.8%
MB: 2 (Sum: 2.94 billion) 1.8%
NB: 2 (Sum: 9.22 billion) 5.6%
NS: 4 (Sum: 3.8 billion) 2.3%
ON: 38 (Sum: 80.02 billion) 48.8%
PQ: 18 (Sum: 25.25 billion) 15.4%
OUT: 14 (Sum: 15.1 billion) 9.2%
TOT: 100 (164.12 billion) 100%

^ if correct, that sure sums up Ontario's (and eastern) power in this country! If those ratios are maintained to the top 1 million richest people in this country (I would guess they would or even slant further to the east's favor), about 3/4 of Canada's wealth is in the east. I think people tend to forget that many of the west's resource companies have huge chunks owned by eastern interests. It will be interseting to see how Albeta's rich fair in next years ranking due to the rapid drop in oil price and energy stock values - which presumably much of their wealth is based on.

Didn't Ontario just get a bunch of new federal seats too?

[Metro-One]

I feel like BC has a middle child position going on here, because we are the third wealthiest province on that list, and really are not that far behind Quebec, but then Quebec gets lumped in with Ontario and we remain just as BC. Too bad Saskatchewan is not to be seen on that list. Maybe instead of the federal government giving the auto makers and Ontario billions of tax payer's dollars these mega rich should give back a little? Have not province my ass, i see very strong disproportionate wealth among the people in Ontario.

[someone123]

I find it unfortunate how many Canadians like to revel in their own provincialism. Vancouver is bad for this and ignorance about the rest of Canada can be seen as a kind of badge of honour. The idea is to give the impression of worldliness (who cares about Toronto in a world of Londons and Shanghais?) but the reality is that most people here are not particularly knowledgeable or well-traveled when it comes to anywhere else either.

[jeremy_haak]

I hope Northwestern Ontario is included in this west. I know it's included in Superstore's west! :)

It's included in RBC's west as well.

[Dmajackson]

^ if correct, that sure sums up Ontario's (and eastern) power in this country! If those ratios are maintained to the top 1 million richest people in this country (I would guess they would or even slant further to the east's favor), about 3/4 of Canada's wealth is in the east. I think people tend to forget that many of the west's resource companies have huge chunks owned by eastern interests. It will be interseting to see how Albeta's rich fair in next years ranking due to the rapid drop in oil price and energy stock values - which presumably much of their wealth is based on.

Didn't Ontario just get a bunch of new federal seats too?

Be careful with the "East" being rich thing. All the provinces out here are "have-nots" and three or so of the poorest provinces per capita are in the East. It makes sense the Ont would have so many on this list, one, it has over a third of Canada's population, two, it has our capital where many companies like their HQ to be and, three, it has our big international city where the successful businesses are likeliy to want to move to.

[craneSpotter]

Be careful with the "East" being rich thing. All the provinces out here are "have-nots" and three or so of the poorest provinces per capita are in the East. It makes sense the Ont would have so many on this list, one, it has over a third of Canada's population, two, it has our capital where many companies like their HQ to be and, three, it has our big international city where the successful businesses are likeliy to want to move to.

I was just speaking of individual wealth and where the bulk of it is located. And, yes, most of the individual wealth in Canada is in Ontario due to it 1) Being older and more established 2) Having 13+ million Canadians 3) being the Nexus of corporate Canada (all the west can generally claim, with a few exceptions, is regional branch offices of eastern Canadian or Global corporations):) That said, there are also a surprising amount of millionaires in teh maritimes. Also, we can't count out Montreal, it has many millionaires and is the HQ for several of Canada's largest corporations both public and private.

I don't care which province is on a political 'have not' list in 20xx based on equalization formulae.

[Metro-One]

I find it unfortunate how many Canadians like to revel in their own provincialism. Vancouver is bad for this and ignorance about the rest of Canada can be seen as a kind of badge of honour. The idea is to give the impression of worldliness (who cares about Toronto in a world of Londons and Shanghais?) but the reality is that most people here are not particularly knowledgeable or well-traveled when it comes to anywhere else either.


I'm sorry but when you live in Vancouver, which is thousands of kms away from Toronto and is located on the Pacific Rim with a heavy Asian influence and is a major port facility, in many aspects cities such as Hong Kong, Taipei, Seoul, Tokyo etc... are more important to locals than Toronto is. The world does not revolve around Toronto. Also people here are no better or no worse than people anywhere else in Canada when it comes to provincialism. Maybe in the Maritimes you are forced to be extremely aligned with the big eastern cities since you have no true big city of your own, unlike BC, Alberta and even Manitoba which all have at least one larger city.

[Greco Roman]

I'm sorry but when you live in Vancouver, which is thousands of kms away from Toronto and is located on the Pacific Rim with a heavy Asian influence and is a major port facility, in many aspects cities such as Hong Kong, Taipei, Seoul, Tokyo etc... are more important to locals than Toronto is. The world does not revolve around Toronto.

But Toronto has a HUGE Asian population that can nearly rival Vancouver's; I would think T-Dot and V-Dot are in the same boat in this regard.

[Metro-One]

:previous: Oh i know T-dot has a big asian population just like Vancouver, but Vancouver is an entire continent closer to Asia and we have the port which is the gateway to Asia and is a large direct business link.

[Nathan]

But Toronto has a HUGE Asian population that can nearly rival Vancouver's; I would think T-Dot and V-Dot are in the same boat in this regard.

I think he's more getting at the importance of cities on trade. Vancouver being on the pacific rim definitely has a higher importance set on cities like Shanghai, Singapore, and Hong Kong. Whereas the rest of Canada would be more closely linked through Calgary, Toronto, and Montreal, which are more closely linked with other cities in the Americas and Europe. The relative importance of the Asian trade is higher for Vancouver.

[Dmajackson]

I'm sorry but when you live in Vancouver, which is thousands of kms away from Toronto and is located on the Pacific Rim with a heavy Asian influence and is a major port facility, in many aspects cities such as Hong Kong, Taipei, Seoul, Tokyo etc... are more important to locals than Toronto is. The world does not revolve around Toronto. Also people here are no better or no worse than people anywhere else in Canada when it comes to provincialism. Maybe in the Maritimes you are forced to be extremely aligned with the big eastern cities since you have no true big city of your own, unlike BC, Alberta and even Manitoba which all have at least one larger city.

Not even here in the Maritimes is Toronto the centre of the universe. Its only in Ontario where Toronto is the centre of the universe. Around here I here more talk about Montreal then Toronto. You don't need a big city to be aligned with. In fact the Maritimes don't have a lot of ties with Toronto. We are mainly ties with ourselves and New England. Not to boast my own city here but Halifax is relatively big and unique enough to associate ourselves with.

[Greco Roman]

:previous: Oh i know T-dot has a big asian population just like Vancouver, but Vancouver is an entire continent closer to Asia and we have the port which is the gateway to Asia and is a large direct business link.

It's funny, because even though Vancouver may be more important for trade via the Pacific Ocean, Toronto still boasts more direct links to cities in Asia than Vancouver via air transport.

Go figure :shrug:

[Metro-One]

:previous: Well Toronto is 2.5 times bigger than Vancouver, and Air Canada likes to screw over Vancouver too. I think we can safely say Vancouver boasts more direct links to Asian cities via that Toronto via sea transport.

[Greco Roman]

Oh; and for the record, I think it's safe to say that most Canadian cities consider themselves the "Centre of the Universe" based on extreme regionalism as demonstrated on this forum.

Shit, I live 300 kms north of one of those cities ;)

[Greco Roman]

:previous: Well Toronto is 2.5 times bigger than Vancouver, and Air Canada likes to screw over Vancouver too. I think we can safely say Vancouver boasts more direct links to Asian cities via that Toronto via sea transport.

True, but you would think that as Vancouver has a slight edge on Toronto in the per capita Asian population, there would be more direct links from Vancouver.

BTW, Air Canada likes to screw other Canadian cities too. Trust me; it's not just Vancouver.

[Metro-One]

:previous: Air Canada just canned its Vancouver to Osaka daily route which really pissed me off because i use that one often. You would think instead of canning it completely they would maybe simply reduce the frequency to every second day or 3 times a week first. F-you air Canada. We are hoping Japan Airlines will eventually pick up the route. I know if you are going to Hong Kong there are an amazing amount of options from Vancouver, same with Seoul, Shanghai, Beijing etc...

[mmmatt]

Vancouver is more than twice the size of Calgary

Actually Calgary (988,193) is nearly twice the size of Vancouver (578,041) :rolleyes:

(sorry, just poking fun at some people who seem to think "city limits" population is the true measure of a citys population.)

[WhipperSnapper]

True, but you would think that as Vancouver has a slight edge on Toronto in the per capita Asian population, there would be more direct links from Vancouver.

I imagine airlines care more about real population counts than per capita percentages in which I have no doubt Vancouver tops Toronto. I also wouldn't be surprised if more trade transactions are conducted in Toronto eventhough the goods are almost guarranteed to flow through a BC port.

[Metro-One]

Had to check out the offcial stats can 2007 numbers for Metro-Toronto and Metro-Vancouver, and yes Vancouver has an amazingly high per-capita Chinese population (I have heard that it is possibly the highest in the world outside of Asia).

Here are the numbers (of selected population groups)

Toronto - Metro Area population 5,072,075.

Chinese - 486,330 - 9.6% total
Korean - 55,265 - 1.1% total
Japanese - 19 010 - 0.4% total

Filipino - 171,980 - 3.4% total

South Asian - 684,070 - 13.5% total


Vancouver - Metro Area population 2,116,581 (this does not include Abbotsford)

Chinese - 381,535 - 18% total
Korean - 44,830 - 2.1% total
Japanese - 25,425 - 1.2% total

Filipino - 78,890 - 3.7% total

South Asian - 207,165 - 9.8% total


It is interesting that Metro-Vancouver has a larger Japanese population than Metro-Toronto in not just ratios, but in true numbers as well (BC is still home to the bulk of Canada's Japanese population). When it comes to ratios Vancouver has a huge Chinese population (almost 1 in 5) and also has a larger Korean and Filipino population per capita than Toronto. In just sheer numbers both Toronto and Vancouver have massive Chinese populations. Toronto has a larger per capita South Asian population though.

[jeremy_haak]

It's funny, because even though Vancouver may be more important for trade via the Pacific Ocean, Toronto still boasts more direct links to cities in Asia than Vancouver via air transport.

Go figure :shrug:

While strictly speaking, that is true, it is a somewhat deceptive statement. Presently Vancouver has 8 destinations in Asia (9 starting next July) and Toronto has 13. The bulk of destinations for Toronto are in the western part of Asia with only 5 destinations in the eastern part of the continent. Comparatively, all of Vancouver's destinations are in east Asia. So, it can be said that Vancouver is a far more important gateway to the eastern part of Asia, and Toronto is more important to the west. Consider also the number of flights (measured per week). Vancouver has 80 flights to Asia on 10 carriers, Toronto has 53 flights on 9 carriers.

[habfanman]

You can toss flight statistics about all you want; Vancouver is Canada's gateway to Asia. Geography doesn't lie.

[SpongeG]

I think he's more getting at the importance of cities on trade. Vancouver being on the pacific rim definitely has a higher importance set on cities like Shanghai, Singapore, and Hong Kong. Whereas the rest of Canada would be more closely linked through Calgary, Toronto, and Montreal, which are more closely linked with other cities in the Americas and Europe. The relative importance of the Asian trade is higher for Vancouver.

yes and thats why BC invested so much to jhave a high visible presence in beijing for the olympics

[1ajs]

Oh; and for the record, I think it's safe to say that most Canadian cities consider themselves the "Centre of the Universe" based on extreme regionalism as demonstrated on this forum.

Shit, I live 300 kms north of one of those cities ;)
yea true but u also live in one of those cities...

[1ajs]

so Alberta sask and bc are the new west well manitoba and nwo are the new midwest! we will continue to chugalonge like we always do

as for the no bank will move to calgary there was rumors of bmo wanting to move to calgarygoine back to 1980 and the presinet boom

[Greco Roman]

yea true but u also live in one of those cities...

You read into things too much and ruin jokes.

[vid]

It's included in RBC's west as well.

Yeah but RBC sucks. Not as much as CIBC but man, they cut it very, very close.

Its only in Ontario where Toronto is the centre of the universe.

Southern Ontario. With the exception of being in the same province, Northwestern Ontario is more influenced by Minneapolis and Winnipeg, and perhaps even Calgary these days, than Toronto.

:previous: Well Toronto is 2.5 times bigger than Vancouver, and Air Canada likes to screw over Vancouver too. I think we can safely say Vancouver boasts more direct links to Asian cities via that Toronto via sea transport.

That's another dumb comparison though. Toronto's port? :haha: Thunder Bay probably gets more cargo from Asia than Toronto, the most recent notable example being a 400 tonne reactor heading to the oil sands that came from China. (too big to get it through the mountains. Sorry, Vancouver.) Of course, this city is 25% port.

Vancouver is the closest port to Asia (Prince Rupert is closer) and for trade to get to Toronto from Asia takes a longer time. If you're sending something from Canada to Asia the logical choice would be for it to go through Vancouver. (Unless its a 400 tonne nuclear reactor, in which case the only choice is Thunder Bay. Or Houston.)

[theman23]

Its only in Ontario where Toronto is the centre of the universe.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. With the new senate appointments, most of the Ottawa region will probably start revolving around Mike Duffy.

[Metro-One]

I see Vid lacks a sense of sarcasm, that was the joke!

[1ajs]

I see Vid lacks a sense of sarcasm, that was the joke!
i didn't see a joke in your post...

[vid]

I see Vid lacks a sense of sarcasm, that was the joke!

I lack a sense of sarcasm?

No, you lack a sense of posting a :) or a ;) or a :fruit: beside what you said to show that it is in fact sarcasm and not serious as tone of voice and body language cannot be conveyed through text.

[Metro-One]

The joke is of course Vancouver is going to have more direct links to asia via sea, thats the joke, because it is so obvious! Read it again, the context was comparing flight travels between Vancouver, Toronto and Asia, then i state the obvious, hence why it starts with "I think we can safely say..." Honestly, people here seem to need a winking face or a dancing banana to understand someone is not serious, it reminds me of the people who need a laugh track on a sitcom to understand when a joke occurred. It was not meant to be "haha" funny but more of a subtle jab!

[1ajs]

well it didn't come across as either but what ever

[Metro-One]

Alright, but Vancouver has more space shuttle trips to Asia than Toronto ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup: :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P There, that one should be fool proof.

[vid]

http://www.geocities.com/vibestothemax/chill_pill.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/vibestothemax/)

:)

[Metro-One]

:previous: Come on, i am just messing, now you guys are getting serious! hehe. PS that looks to be a hard pill to swallow!

[1ajs]

what ever;)

[Metro-One]

:previous: Aww, cheer up 1ajs :hug: We are all friends here! PS, when you actually start going through those emoticons there are some pretty strange ones!

[vid]

:wizard: :asian: :clown:

250 grams. That pill would be gigantic.

[1ajs]

:previous: Aww, cheer up 1ajs :hug: We are all friends here! PS, when you actually start going through those emoticons there are some pretty strange ones!:lmao::lockd:

[ToxiK]

http://www.geocities.com/vibestothemax/chill_pill.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/vibestothemax/)

:)

I hope its not a suppository....

[Denscity]

Vancouver is the future of Canada, if not the world. World port city, Olympic city, and highest ranked city in the world for visiting and living in.

[Spring2008]

n

[Spring2008]

Vancouver is the future of Canada, if not the world. World port city, Olympic city, and highest ranked city in the world for visiting and living in.




I agree 100%..... Ha hows that for cutting through some of those intense feelings of regionalism in Canada, not even from BC. Top that y'all.:banana:

[raggedy13]

Vancouver is the future of Canada, if not the world. World port city, Olympic city, and highest ranked city in the world for visiting and living in.

I guess you've got to at least admire his optimism. :shrug: :tup:

[Gerrard]

These "my city v. your city" debates are so tiresome. Why all the insecurity?

Canadians can be so provincial and lame sometimes.

[CMD UW]

Typical, instead of rejoicing that Canada will become a stronger nation with more wealth we're lamenting on the rise of one part at the expense of another. Well I got news for you, the 'west' has been rising since the railroad was first built. Power, wealth, influence has continuously been shifting from east to west in the last 200 years. No big surprise here.You are 100% correct.

Canada is a small player compared to our other industrialized allies. We need to work collectively as a whole in order to maintain our 'position' on the international scene.

[Greco Roman]

Typical, instead of rejoicing that Canada will become a stronger nation with more wealth we're lamenting on the rise of one part at the expense of another. Well I got news for you, the 'west' has been rising since the railroad was first built. Power, wealth, influence has continuously been shifting from east to west in the last 200 years. No big surprise here.

I don't notice this very much in the American culture; I don't notice any petty bickering about city vs city or state vs state. They are a much more united country than Canada is.

It's very sad on our part, actually.

[Rumors]

:lockd: :yes:

[1ajs]

:lockd: :yes:
:tup: :lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd:

[billy corgan]

Vancouver is the future of Canada, if not the world. World port city, Olympic city, and highest ranked city in the world for visiting and living in.

Funniest post ever. :haha:

[Metro-One]

The US has very strong Regionalism, but unlike here it is not city vs. city, but more region vs. region. The best example is the north vs the south, but they also have a west vs the east and a strong urban vs rural divide. Just watch any American television show, South park, Family Guy even the Simpson's are full of jabs towards different regions in the states. Some states have even filled lawsuits against such shows when they are portrayed negatively for an entire episode. For a quick example look at the family guy episode when all the New Yorkers come up to New England to watch the leafs change, that episode is full of regionalism!

[Greco Roman]

The US has very strong Regionalism, but unlike here it is not city vs. city, but more region vs. region. The best example is the north vs the south, but they also have a west vs the east and a strong urban vs rural divide. Just watch any American television show, South park, Family Guy even the Simpson's are full of jabs towards different regions in the states. Some states have even filled lawsuits against such shows when they are portrayed negatively for an entire episode. For a quick example look at the family guy episode when all the New Yorkers come up to New England to watch the leafs change, that episode is full of regionalism!

Well, for me, regionalism is waayy more apparent and "in my face" in Canada compared to the US.

[Metro-One]

:previous: Well, they did already have a civil war. Not to mention the tension slavery has created to this day. Even Sienfeld had regionalism, Kramer calling Las Angeles a "whore" and the non stop making fun of New Jersey. For goodness sakes even New York itself is heavily divided (Queens, Brooklyn, etc...) Phoenix usually gets a lot of crap on these forums from other cities,as does Houston and Dallas (there is a big anti Texas feeling in the more liberal parts of the states from the entire George Bush ordeal). The reason you feel Canadian regionalism is way more in your face is because you live in Canada. The size of a nation is a major factor in regionalism, both the United States and Canada are huge nations and therefore the distance between areas starts to generate regionalism. Look at other large nations such as Russia and China, many regions of those nations do not see themselves as Chinese or Russian and wish to be their own nations. But forums such as this re good for it does bring us together (i wish there were more members from the north on here myself.)

[SpongeG]

I don't notice this very much in the American culture; I don't notice any petty bickering about city vs city or state vs state. They are a much more united country than Canada is.

It's very sad on our part, actually.

it's just part of being Canadian always has been always will be - if anything its less so now than it was when i was a kid

we are a small country - population and thus as a country have a small town mentality

[newflyer]

Actually Calgary (988,193) is nearly twice the size of Vancouver (578,041) :rolleyes:

(sorry, just poking fun at some people who seem to think "city limits" population is the true measure of a citys population.)

:haha: .... I feel the same way.

[newflyer]

Vancouver is the future of Canada, if not the world. World port city, Olympic city, and highest ranked city in the world for visiting and living in.

Hmmmm I seem to remember a very similar (King of the World) sentiment eminating from Montreal before they had the Olympics. Perhaps the massive spending before the games has given some folks enlarged cramiums.

PS .. Montreal just resently paid off the Big O.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Well, for me, regionalism is waayy more apparent and "in my face" in Canada compared to the US.

Before 9/11 I used to see alot of "Kill A Yankee" & "The South Will Rise Again" stickers on vehicles in the southern states... after 9/11 they were repaced with American flags.

[Nicko999]

Some stats:
Canadian cities GDP-(rank in the world)2005
-Toronto: 209 bn-(21)
-Montreal: 120 bn-(39)
-Vancouver: 79 bn-(79)

Canada GDP is 1.178 trillion(2007)
So the 2 big cities account for more than 30%(add the growth in Toronto and in Montreal from 2005 to 2007)
So saying the East will be out of the driver's seat by 2020 is completely ridiculous.

Typical, instead of rejoicing that Canada will become a stronger nation with more wealth we're lamenting on the rise of one part at the expense of another. Well I got news for you, the 'west' has been rising since the railroad was first built. Power, wealth, influence has continuously been shifting from east to west in the last 200 years. No big surprise here.

you said everything:tup:

[Metro-One]

Again Montreal and Vancouver perfectly match their populations in wealth to one an other - (Vancouver is 2/3rds Montreal).

[kool maudit]

These "my city v. your city" debates are so tiresome. Why all the insecurity?

Canadians can be so provincial and lame sometimes.

i agree, but you seem to be drawn to this subject, to somehow feel a need to project a weary above-it-all persona. you pop up a lot when this topic is broached.

the canadian-who-is-so-over-canada is an old type as well, and is part of the tiresome game you like to decry.

[ssiguy]

This "west will overcome" is pretty dry. The same thing was said in the early 1900s all the way to 1930 but never happened. Infact the population of The West is almost exactly what it was in the 1920s proportionatly ~~~about 27%.

Also remember in the 70s when Alberta was tommorow's land..well that died pretty quickly. Alberta will also find itself increasingly alienated due to its verh high oil-sands GHG emissions. This coupled with a fast turnover to electric and alternative enery use for cars Alberta may find itself back where it was in the early 80s. Alberta has done an exceptionally poor job of diversifying its economy. Yes there are new busineses and technology growth areas {ie NanoTech} but as a percent of the total economy, oil is even more important than it was just 10 years ago.

Also.......remember Toronto is growing as fast as Van/Cal/Edm.....combined and Montreal is growing as fast as Vancouver.

If there was one province I would put my bets on for whether this economic storm on the long-term is Manitoba.