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View Full Version : New Downtown Calgary Arena


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craner
Apr 8, 2017, 8:22 AM
^^kev, I think your arena & stadium layout on the Stampede grounds would be awesome. Perhaps the architecture of the new stadium could pay homage to the demolished saddledome in some respects.

speedog
Apr 8, 2017, 2:46 PM
^Because of what you noted your post a couple of pages ago:


I realize you're probably just playing devil's advocate for the U of C but I think it's pretty obvious who McMahon's main tenant is and just how far at the bottom the facility is among the CFL stadiums.

I don't dispute McMahon's position but too many people think it's just so easy for CSEC to come in and demolish McMahon and rebuild something new there or do a huge amount of renovations to the old girl. In reality, does CSEC even own any sporting facilities?

speedog
Apr 8, 2017, 2:59 PM
I honestly like the concept of that. I'm still leaning towards the idea of a hockey rink on the grounds, and then rip down the dome AND the grandstand and replace with a stadium that has open endzones that you can run the chuckwagons right through the middle of. I really wish I had some skill with autocad or something to model that up, but an elevated bridge on both sides with video boards and for 2 weeks you roll up the turf and put down dirt to run the rangeland derby and rodeo. Stamps get a bye week and a road game over that window, and hey, the Stampeders play on the Stampede grounds. From what I can tell, a CFL field would more than accommodate the rodeo infield they have there now.

Makes it a multipurpose stadium that's uniquely Calgary, and heck, the Dinos could play there too as their season is nowhere near July.

A CFL field is I need large enough for the rodeo infield but the Stampede would still have to keep the existing track as the spot where the proposed stadium would sit couldn't accommodate a track the size of the existing one. Also, connected facilities would allow some economic savings due to some shareable behind the scenes support stuff.

wave46
Apr 8, 2017, 3:40 PM
For Winnipeg, base cost was $190 million with the Blue Bombers picking up $85 million and the city/province picking up the rest of the tab. University of Manitoba contributed the land. There were some overruns and problems that had to be fixed, as well as some improvements that drove the cost higher in the end, maybe to around $210 MM. I'm not sure exactly how the costs were split. But by and large you can say that the Bombers are paying for somewhere in the 40-45% range.

Not sure about Regina but I don't think it was wildly different... the club is paying for a good chunk of the facility. They aren't being gifted to the teams by government. Oilers got a much, much sweeter deal despite being, in all likelihood, a far more profitable entity than the Bombers/Roughriders.

I'm not sure how you get a stadium built without some form of public assistance... has there ever been a pro stadium for anything, even minor league baseball, built in this country in modern times without a subsidy?

In this country, it is not possible. Outside of the Blue Jays, the tenants of major stadiums lack the revenue base for a large capital investment such as a stadium. That, along with the fact that for 1/3 to 1/2 of the year, most stadiums are unusable for major acts due to winter, occasional events like NHL outdoor games excepted.

The US is a different story - an NFL/MLB team can afford such a luxury, but fleecing the taxpayer there is as American as Chevrolet and apple pie.

Now an arena has a much better business case, provided there's potential for a NHL team (sorry Hamilton). An arena can be a 365-day a year operation. As a smaller venue, more acts will likely use it, which improves the profitability of it. If I'm not mistaken, the Air Canada Center and Bell Center were entirely privately financed - considering how busy those arenas are, I'm sure both facilities do well financially.

esquire
Apr 8, 2017, 4:45 PM
^ I believe GM Place and Scotiabank Centre were private too. MTS Centre was mostly private. I think it was really only the Alberta rinks that were built with mainly (exclusively?) public dollars out of Canada's NHL arenas.

As to the stampede/football joint venue... that seems like a very awkward fit. Considering how fans tend not to like baseball/football joint facilities, I doubt that a rodeo/football facility would be well suited to either purpose. I suppose I could be wrong, but it strikes me as very unlikely to work out in a way that either fan group would be satisfied.

Doug
Apr 8, 2017, 6:36 PM
I honestly like the concept of that. I'm still leaning towards the idea of a hockey rink on the grounds, and then rip down the dome AND the grandstand and replace with a stadium that has open endzones that you can run the chuckwagons right through the middle of. I really wish I had some skill with autocad or something to model that up, but an elevated bridge on both sides with video boards and for 2 weeks you roll up the turf and put down dirt to run the rangeland derby and rodeo. Stamps get a bye week and a road game over that window, and hey, the Stampeders play on the Stampede grounds. From what I can tell, a CFL field would more than accommodate the rodeo infield they have there now.

Makes it a multipurpose stadium that's uniquely Calgary, and heck, the Dinos could play there too as their season is nowhere near July.

A stadium will only make sense if it can concentrate as many uses as possible: CFL, field house, replacement of Stampede Grandstand and probably much more. Fire Park would be the ideal location for the stadium and Stampede Midway. A stadium is too monolithic to locate inner city. The Stampede Grounds are too valuable as in return city land to waste on uses like the Grandstand and Stampede Midway. Demolition of the Saddledome and Grandstand would free up huge tracts for inner city residential development. Of course it would need to be raised above floodplain.

jeffwhit
Apr 9, 2017, 5:22 AM
A stadium will only make sense if it can concentrate as many uses as possible: CFL, field house, replacement of Stampede Grandstand and probably much more. Fire Park would be the ideal location for the stadium and Stampede Midway. A stadium is too monolithic to locate inner city. The Stampede Grounds are too valuable as in return city land to waste on uses like the Grandstand and Stampede Midway. Demolition of the Saddledome and Grandstand would free up huge tracts for inner city residential development. Of course it would need to be raised above floodplain.

Unless I'm mistaken about what land "Firepark" actually includes, there is no way to could accommodate a Football Stadium/Fieldhouse and a Horseracing facility, never mind the Exhibition part of the Stampede. This is besides the fact this is never going to happen.

Doug
Apr 9, 2017, 6:09 PM
Unless I'm mistaken about what land "Firepark" actually includes, there is no way to could accommodate a Football Stadium/Fieldhouse and a Horseracing facility, never mind the Exhibition part of the Stampede. This is besides the fact this is never going to happen.

I agree it will never happen as none of those activities have sufficient draw to justify the investment. Horse racing is dead. All a new facility would need to do is accommodate what the current Grandstand does for 10 days per year.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 9, 2017, 6:17 PM
A CFL/MLS stadium that works as a grandstand for rodeo and chucks might work? On the grounds of course.

speedog
Apr 9, 2017, 7:38 PM
A CFL/MLS stadium that works as a grandstand for rodeo and chucks might work? On the grounds of course.

You'd still have to accommodate the chuckwagon track and moving away from the current track's site makes that virtually impossible to do.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 9, 2017, 7:49 PM
You'd still have to accommodate the chuckwagon track and moving away from the current track's site makes that virtually impossible to do.

Well, it would be phased, and you would need no facilities over ground level in the end zones. First step, demolish and replace the infield with a proper half of a football stadium. Replace the existing grandstand later, or the next season.

Would it be perfect, not really. But it would up your facility utilization days. I tihkn it can totally work where the existing track is.

technomad
Apr 9, 2017, 8:20 PM
I'm still a fan of the railtown site for the stadium / arena combo. I think those are better uses for trackside land than residential development is, and while you might not be able to accommodate the tailgate culture at a central location, having fort Calgary right next door for food vendors and beer gardens is a decent substitute :cheers:

but.. if for whatever reason, the railtown land owners don't want to come to the table and be a part of a huge, potentially Olympic project for the city, and it has to be on stampede lands instead, I think stadium at the north end, and new arena on the big 4 site would be the best layout

and while I agree a stadium has to incorporate as many possible uses to get good value, I'm not sure the field-house combo is the way to go..

doing a blatant rip-off of BC place seems like the easy win for stadium, especially if on stampede grounds. make it covered, and integrate with BMO for the increased conference space.

BC place averages 200 days of use a year, does any other stadium in Canada even come close to that?

Not sure if McMahon could be retrofitted for the field-house in any way, but even a whole new build would be better located there imo

CrossedTheTracks
Apr 9, 2017, 10:39 PM
BC place averages 200 days of use a year, does any other stadium in Canada even come close to that?

I don't mean to derail, but where did you get that number? A casual inspection of their events listing doesn't come close to that. (Not criticizing; I'd be awfully impressed with even ~150...)

MalcolmTucker
Apr 9, 2017, 11:22 PM
I don't mean to derail, but where did you get that number? A casual inspection of their events listing doesn't come close to that. (Not criticizing; I'd be awfully impressed with even ~150...)

Events include convention uses - only way to explain that number.

suburbia
Apr 10, 2017, 12:26 AM
BC place averages 200 days of use a year, does any other stadium in Canada even come close to that?

I wouldn't be surprised with that number, but to clarify for others, that wouldn't be 200 events, rather ~40 events and then all the overhead of bringing in events and then cleaning them out. Turning around such a facility takes longer than say a convention centre.

[EDIT]

It it were, say a baseball field, with baseball games all the time, you could do more than the 40 or so I mentioned above, but BC place is not a baseball field. They would be able to turn soccer and football games around quicker, however.

technomad
Apr 10, 2017, 12:44 AM
I don't mean to derail, but where did you get that number? A casual inspection of their events listing doesn't come close to that. (Not criticizing; I'd be awfully impressed with even ~150...)

their annual reports track total attendance over days used per year, but I found the 200 day claim here (http://vancouver.eventful.com/venues/bc-place-stadium-/V0-001-000318643-4#more-info)


As the world's largest air supported domed stadium, BC Place is also home to the province's largest trade and consumer shows including the Boat Show, Home Show and Auto Show. With major events happening over 200 days each year, BC Place truly is a place where dreams come alive.

and yes, I'd assume that accounts for all conference use, including the setup/teardown time required for those events

still, a great usage rate for the facility. even if Calgary only got half that to start it would be a huge boost of activity in the stampede area

wave46
Apr 10, 2017, 11:59 AM
BC place averages 200 days of use a year, does any other stadium in Canada even come close to that?


Skydome does 80+ Blue Jays games per year and other large events, so 100 days a year of events is certainly within the realm of reason.

speedog
Apr 10, 2017, 12:49 PM
How many of BC Place's 200 days of use a year are events with attendees paying for seats in the stands and concessions being open for business?

McMahon in Calgary talks about how much usage that stadium gets but aside from the 10 or so Stampeder home games, it's just UofC Dino games, minor league football games, a few high school football games and practices for the Stampeders and Dino's and a handful of other oddball events.a. Of all of those stadium uses, concessions are only opened for the Stampeder and Dino games as well as sometimes a few high school games while seats in the stands are only sold for the Dino's and Stampeders.

That means the lights are on and a skeleton staff is still there for the majority of the McMahon's uses but it most likely isn't making any money. I wonder if the same could be said of BC Place's 200 uses in a year?

Calgarian
Apr 10, 2017, 4:28 PM
Perhaps the architecture of the new stadium could pay homage to the demolished saddledome in some respects.

Please no.

Calgarian
Apr 10, 2017, 4:33 PM
Wasn't there talk about bringing IndyCar here a few years ago? That seems like something that would be better tied to the grandstand and would make some use of the Stampede grounds. Tying a football stadium to the grandstand would be quite technical and would require the perfect location.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 10, 2017, 4:53 PM
Forgive the awfulness of this mashup:
http://i.imgur.com/uX3Aw2R.png

Now, you'd need a way to move the field, but that is totally possible. And you'd probably cut down the capacity on the east grandstand, to allow some sightlines to the backstretch, or a really neat huge ribbon LED

craner
Apr 11, 2017, 1:29 AM
^Thanks for your "Awful Mashup" MT.
It's nice to see the scale of how everything might fit together.
As for lowering the east grandstand to permit views of the backstretch, perhaps they could make the top profile saddle shaped - I bet Calgarian would love that. ;)

Design-mind
Apr 11, 2017, 2:17 AM
The Stampeders horse, "Quick Six" can now run down the sidelines and keep going doing a full loop!

speedog
Apr 11, 2017, 3:37 AM
C'mon people, a combination football stadium/chuckwagon track? Might as well throw in a baseball layout and maybe some cricket pitches as well. Oh, and a whitewater racing course too.

upperloge
Apr 11, 2017, 5:52 AM
C'mon people, a combination football stadium/chuckwagon track? Might as well throw in a baseball layout and maybe some cricket pitches as well. Oh, and a whitewater racing course too.

Why not? More use out of the facility, if you're building on the Stampede Grounds you'd need to build at-grade for the most part anyway as you wouldn't be digging out a bowl for the playing surface at that location. All you'd need are open endzones (can put up some temp areas for gameday activations) but you're looking at events (CFL games/Stampede) that require similar venue capacity as it is. And lets face it, the Stampede Grandstand is pretty basic yes, but it's not getting any younger.

Size wise it works. Sorting out how to handle the construction without impacting a Stampede window would be interesting.

I'd personally make it a full loop for the stadium at a +15 level (c'mon, how Calgary is THAT!) much like the bridge at Gilette Stadium (simply with one on the other endzone as well) You could even make the bridges SRO party decks and have 2 sizeable jumbotrons placed in those spaces that can show the Chucks when they're behind the East grandstand, or, hell, do a fancy video ribbon on the East grandstand that runs a camera array and basically shows you the track behind the grandstand as the wagons move from right to left before coming back into view.

Is it a bit unusual? Admittedly so. But you get the parking/transit links of the Stampede Grounds, a central location, more usable dates for an Outdoor stadium, hell, give it an arched canopy roof like a chuckwagon if you want to keep the fancy western theme going, although I think the city may have moved beyond that architecturally these days.

esquire
Apr 11, 2017, 1:50 PM
C'mon people, a combination football stadium/chuckwagon track? Might as well throw in a baseball layout and maybe some cricket pitches as well. Oh, and a whitewater racing course too.

Pretty much this. It would be creating a venue that could host a dozen types of events and suck for every one of them.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 11, 2017, 2:10 PM
But what would make it suck? What makes it incompatible? In multiuse football/baseball it is sightlines, not orienting seats in the right direction, and leaving too much playing surface. In track stadiums it is being set back too far. What creates the problem here besides multiuse = bad? There would be compromises in the end zone concourses sure, and but any potential seating there wouldn't be missed.

esquire
Apr 11, 2017, 2:28 PM
^ Because building a venue with a temporary football field that sits on a rodeo/chuckwagon racing track is absurd. The east grandstand would be useless except for football games, so you're basically building half a stadium for football anyway, why not just build one more stand and create a proper football/soccer venue.

The views of the track from the west stand would be ruined for the most part. The endzones would be nothing but atmosphere deadening voids. The forced groundshare scenario would probably be an unwelcome inconvenience for the Stampede, and would create headaches for the football team... this would probably not be a one-day conversion from one format to another, leading to several dark days for the facility during prime event season in the summer.

Honestly, this sounds like something that would have come out of the darkest days of Winnipeg small time, penny pinching thinking circa 1995. It's hard to believe anyone would seriously propose such a thing today, let alone in Calgary of all places.

CalgaryAlex
Apr 11, 2017, 2:40 PM
I'm hopping on the chuckwagon for this stadium/grandstand combo. Never thought of it before, but it makes complete sense. Take two venues that need to be replaced, that don't hold nearly enough events on their own, and integrate the two. An improved facility may also be good for outdoor concert events without the noise problem McMahon currently has. Tons of room for parking/tailgating, and the CMLC/Stampede redevelopment can feed into this as the southern anchor of the grounds (the arena being the northern anchor). The 17th Ave redesign can feed onto Olympic Way directly into the middle of the two anchors.

I like it!

CalgaryAlex
Apr 11, 2017, 2:49 PM
^ Because building a venue with a temporary football field that sits on a rodeo/chuckwagon racing track is absurd. The east grandstand would be useless except for football games, so you're basically building half a stadium for football anyway, why not just build one more stand and create a proper football/soccer venue.

The views of the track from the west stand would be ruined for the most part. The endzones would be nothing but atmosphere deadening voids. The forced groundshare scenario would probably be an unwelcome inconvenience for the Stampede, and would create headaches for the football team... this would probably not be a one-day conversion from one format to another, leading to several dark days for the facility during prime event season in the summer.

Honestly, this sounds like something that would have come out of the darkest days of Winnipeg small time, penny pinching thinking circa 1995. It's hard to believe anyone would seriously propose such a thing today, let alone in Calgary of all places.

Why is it absurd? Seems like a relatively simple engineering problem to solve. And why would the east grandstand be useless for anything other that football? Maybe you can explain this a bit more.

During prime event season both of the current facilities sit empty, basking in the sun. I don't see a problem with having two main conversion times (before and after stampede) as well as a couple other conversions (monster trucks, etc.). Again, this is a rather simple engineering problem.

wave46
Apr 11, 2017, 3:12 PM
Why is it absurd? Seems like a relatively simple engineering problem to solve. And why would the east grandstand be useless for anything other that football? Maybe you can explain this a bit more.

During prime event season both of the current facilities sit empty, basking in the sun. I don't see a problem with having two main conversion times (before and after stampede) as well as a couple other conversions (monster trucks, etc.). Again, this is a rather simple engineering problem.

They've tried this before. The multipurpose stadium era of baseball and football. On paper, the compromises don't look so bad, but in actuality, it just doesn't work - the US is littered with abandoned stadiums that used to host both baseball and football.

In Canada, this is personified by the Olympic Stadium in Montreal. It was designed for the Olympics and converted for baseball/football use and now sits empty because no professional sport wants to use it. I will concede there were other forces at play in Montreal, but the stadium didn't exactly give the ambiance of 'going to the game'. More like going to an empty concrete cavern.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 11, 2017, 3:18 PM
Moving a field isn't an engineering problem that hasn't been solved, just right size it for a non-turf field. Might want to keep the movable modules tall to leave height for under stand access during rodeo as the East stand would need to accommodate rodeo just as the infield does today.

You can either plan for keeping the Grandstand until its end of life, or replacing it earlier.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 11, 2017, 3:22 PM
They've tried this before. The multipurpose stadium era of baseball and football. On paper, the compromises don't look so bad, but in actuality, it just doesn't work - the US is littered with abandoned stadiums that used to host both baseball and football.

In Canada, this is personified by the Olympic Stadium in Montreal. It was designed for the Olympics and converted for baseball/football use and now sits empty because no professional sport wants to use it. I will concede there were other forces at play in Montreal, but the stadium didn't exactly give the ambiance of 'going to the game'. More like going to an empty concrete cavern.

But the sightlines don't change - centre field/infield. The multi stadiums suck for baseball because the seats are facing the middle of centre field instead of the pitchers mound. They suck for football because the slope of the seats for baseball doesn't feel right for football.

They don't suck merely for the fact that they aren't ever used for anything else.

esquire
Apr 11, 2017, 3:30 PM
Why is it absurd? Seems like a relatively simple engineering problem to solve. And why would the east grandstand be useless for anything other that football? Maybe you can explain this a bit more.

During prime event season both of the current facilities sit empty, basking in the sun. I don't see a problem with having two main conversion times (before and after stampede) as well as a couple other conversions (monster trucks, etc.). Again, this is a rather simple engineering problem.

The east stand would be useless for chuckwagon racing. It's unlikely that the extra seats would be needed for other rodeo events. So really, you'd be building half a football stadium.

The whole idea strikes me as half baked to the max, but who knows... maybe the powers that be will like the idea of saving a few bucks by building a weird frankenstadium. I'm just glad it's you guys and not us who could be "saddled" with such a thing.

wave46
Apr 11, 2017, 3:36 PM
But the sightlines don't change - centre field/infield. The multi stadiums suck for baseball because the seats are facing the middle of centre field instead of the pitchers mound. They suck for football because the slope of the seats for baseball doesn't feel right for football.

They don't suck merely for the fact that they aren't ever used for anything else.

It looks (to my non-engineering eye, albeit) that there is a fairly large difference in scale between the football and chuckwagon set up. Like my example of baseball/football, the compromises required to accommodate both will end up making neither really work.

Also, is there enough demand for both to really make a pairing work? It might be cheaper/better to just make a sport specific stadium.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 11, 2017, 3:45 PM
Probably if the grandstand ever needs to be replaced, there will be a reckoning. It was paid for back when horse racing was the only gambling in the province.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 11, 2017, 3:56 PM
Sightlines are not designed with much focus right now:

http://i.imgur.com/vNDyMyz.png

Would you even but in seats beyond the end touchdown lines these days?:
http://i.imgur.com/fIvSBYw.png

Granted, the set back for rodeo would be more than today, but you would also be increasing capacity by a lot! You might not use a fair portion, or you sell them for low enough that people that can't afford to take their family out can go.

Calgarian
Apr 11, 2017, 4:28 PM
C'mon people, a combination football stadium/chuckwagon track? Might as well throw in a baseball layout and maybe some cricket pitches as well. Oh, and a whitewater racing course too.

Agreed, combining all these does seem a bit ridiculous. Having the ends of a stadium open to allow a horse track will impact the seating arrangement and would likely require some pretty heavy duty machinery to operate. Also, not sure if moving the field into the Stampede infield will be the best bet during Stampede, the infield is usually pretty busy.

Calgarian
Apr 11, 2017, 4:30 PM
I'm hopping on the chuckwagon for this stadium/grandstand combo. Never thought of it before, but it makes complete sense. Take two venues that need to be replaced, that don't hold nearly enough events on their own, and integrate the two. An improved facility may also be good for outdoor concert events without the noise problem McMahon currently has. Tons of room for parking/tailgating, and the CMLC/Stampede redevelopment can feed into this as the southern anchor of the grounds (the arena being the northern anchor). The 17th Ave redesign can feed onto Olympic Way directly into the middle of the two anchors.

I like it!

Does the grandstand need to be replaced? seems to be more than sufficient for the 11 days of the year it gets used.

googspecial
Apr 11, 2017, 4:44 PM
Cleaned it up a little. Build it as close to the Agrium as possible/furthest away from the river.

- Red box dressing rooms etc
- Green boxes would be retractable/removable seats. Could leave the North side ones up for football games, and South side for Grey Cup
- +15 (would probably need to be +30 or more) where the Rogers canopy thing is. This could be access to the North endzone seating and the East stand if built wide enough. Finish line for racing...


http://i.imgur.com/vCnCUTf.jpg

CalgaryAlex
Apr 11, 2017, 4:46 PM
They've tried this before. The multipurpose stadium era of baseball and football. On paper, the compromises don't look so bad, but in actuality, it just doesn't work - the US is littered with abandoned stadiums that used to host both baseball and football.

In Canada, this is personified by the Olympic Stadium in Montreal. It was designed for the Olympics and converted for baseball/football use and now sits empty because no professional sport wants to use it. I will concede there were other forces at play in Montreal, but the stadium didn't exactly give the ambiance of 'going to the game'. More like going to an empty concrete cavern.

I don't understand the comparison between football/rodeo/chucks and football/baseball. These are completely different combinations.

There is a similar area between the infield and a football field. Designed properly, you would still be able to view the chuckwagons going around the corners although the east straightaway would be blocked (it already is for the most part). The end zones would be the biggest challenge, but I'm sure there is a solution to be found between removable seating and a ground-level concourse.

I think it could work. I mostly like the idea of having facilities that don't sit around being wasted for the majority of the time they are depreciating in value. I also like the location and incredible amount of available space.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 11, 2017, 4:47 PM
Does the grandstand need to be replaced? seems to be more than sufficient for the 11 days of the year it gets used.

It will need to be eventually, built in 1974. But you could leave it be for a long while. Ottawa's multiuse grandstand (It has a hockey arena!) is from the 60s.

Calgarian
Apr 11, 2017, 4:56 PM
It will need to be eventually, built in 1974. But you could leave it be for a long while. Ottawa's multiuse grandstand (It has a hockey arena!) is from the 60s.

If it's structurally sound, then it should be fine for it's purpose. Only reason I can see them upgrading it at all in the short term is if we get an Indy race like I alluded to before. Not sure there's anything happening with that anymore though.

DizzyEdge
Apr 11, 2017, 5:35 PM
Forgive the awfulness of this mashup:
http://i.imgur.com/uX3Aw2R.png

Now, you'd need a way to move the field, but that is totally possible. And you'd probably cut down the capacity on the east grandstand, to allow some sightlines to the backstretch, or a really neat huge ribbon LED

Have the east side be a giant elevator which sinks into the ground for the Stampede.

(I'm only kidding. I think.)

MalcolmTucker
Apr 11, 2017, 5:45 PM
If you chop off the seats beyond the touchdown lines, can you bring the stands closer?

McMurph
Apr 11, 2017, 6:00 PM
I love it. The track is only used for the 10 days of the rangeland derby, right? Sightlines on the backstretch are already irrelevant and with the video board that any new stadium / grandstand puts in everyone will be watching that. You could even put a flat promenade like roof on the shorter east stands and make that the prime rodeo and chuck watching spot. If you were really slick with the removable stands at the N and S you might even be able to slide them in and out between the afternoon rodeo and evening chucks.

Not quite sure how you combine the East stands concourse facilities with the stock-handling infrastructure. Also not sure how you avoid stampeditechture.

CrossedTheTracks
Apr 11, 2017, 6:08 PM
If you chop off the seats beyond the touchdown lines, can you bring the stands closer?

I'm guessing not. The sidelines are pretty packed with the teams, their equipment, and space for a camera cart. I assume that the end zone stands curve into the sidelines because the sidelines don't need to be as thick there, rather than any other reason.

craner
Apr 11, 2017, 7:11 PM
At first I didn't think the combined Football/Rodeo/Racetrack idea was realistically feasible, but the more brainstorming that goes on here the more I'm convinced it could work.

Highlights:
- existing Stampede grandstand could remain for the time being to bring down current costs.
- +15/+30 connections between the east & west stands at both north & south ends. These could be tied into existing concourse levels on the existing grandstand.
- Removable seating or party decks at north & south ends for football games.
- Sink the football field down below track/infield level enough to add temporary dirt to level for the Stampede. i.e. Don't try to put the football field over the track/infield.
- Video ribbon board on new east stand to compensate for blocked view of the backstretch from the west grandstand. As someone mentioned, the backstretch is largely blocked for most of the grandstand seats as it sits now anyway.
- Similar sightlines required for all uses.
- Puts the arena & stadium in same area to take advantage of planned entertainment district.
- Central location.
- Potential outdoor concert venue.
- Allows new fieldhouse and new, more suitable track & football facility to be built for UC at Foothills location.
- Allows excess McMahon lands to be sold & repurposed.

I'm sure I'm forgetting other good reasons this idea makes sense but I'm actually excited about this now.
BTW - according to Wikipedia, the Stampede Grandstand seats 17,000.
How do we propose this to the City/Stampede/CESC ?? :haha:

CalgaryAlex
Apr 11, 2017, 7:48 PM
Nice highlight list, craner. Yeah the more I think about this, the more I want to see it happen. I'd love for the Stamps to play in a central location instead of in the suburbs. And I'd love to see our facilities used to their greatest potential.

This would add to the supposed transformation the Stampede board wants to see happen to their grounds. I'm sure businesses on 17 Ave, 4 St and in East Village would also like to see an additional 10 events with 30,000 attendees placed on their doorstep (many during a time that the Flames aren't playing).


How do we propose this to the City/Stampede/CESC ?? :haha:
And... the CMLC who are currently drawing up plans to revitalize the Stampede grounds.

UofC.engineer
Apr 11, 2017, 10:21 PM
At first I didn't think the combined Football/Rodeo/Racetrack idea was realistically feasible, but the more brainstorming that goes on here the more I'm convinced it could work.

Highlights:
- existing Stampede grandstand could remain for the time being to bring down current costs.
- +15/+30 connections between the east & west stands at both north & south ends. These could be tied into existing concourse levels on the existing grandstand.
- Removable seating or party decks at north & south ends for football games.
- Sink the football field down below track/infield level enough to add temporary dirt to level for the Stampede. i.e. Don't try to put the football field over the track/infield.
- Video ribbon board on new east stand to compensate for blocked view of the backstretch from the west grandstand. As someone mentioned, the backstretch is largely blocked for most of the grandstand seats as it sits now anyway.
- Similar sightlines required for all uses.
- Puts the arena & stadium in same area to take advantage of planned entertainment district.
- Central location.
- Potential outdoor concert venue.
- Allows new fieldhouse and new, more suitable track & football facility to be built for UC at Foothills location.
- Allows excess McMahon lands to be sold & repurposed.

I'm sure I'm forgetting other good reasons this idea makes sense but I'm actually excited about this now.
BTW - according to Wikipedia, the Stampede Grandstand seats 17,000.
How do we propose this to the City/Stampede/CESC ?? :haha:

It's an idea worth exploring.

Wouldn't having stands on the east side block the view of the backstretch for everyone? Thus, making at least 50% of the race unwatchable?

Also, I have no clue what a rodeo/chuckwagon event entails. But I'd imagine there is a requirement to have a large "back of house" operation...I don't know if that could be integrated into a stadium.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 11, 2017, 10:28 PM
http://i.imgur.com/SdssmGK.jpg

jsbertram
Apr 12, 2017, 1:43 AM
Forgive the awfulness of this mashup:
http://i.imgur.com/uX3Aw2R.png

Now, you'd need a way to move the field, but that is totally possible. And you'd probably cut down the capacity on the east grandstand, to allow some sightlines to the backstretch, or a really neat huge ribbon LED

But .
But ...
BUT ...

What about the nightly Grandstand show?
where will the stage be for all those singing and dancing kids to entertain the crowds after the chucks every night?


please -- Think Of The Children

craner
Apr 12, 2017, 5:09 AM
Don't they pull the stage in every night with a big tractor ?

upperloge
Apr 12, 2017, 9:01 AM
I don't understand the comparison between football/rodeo/chucks and football/baseball. These are completely different combinations.

I think it could work. I mostly like the idea of having facilities that don't sit around being wasted for the majority of the time they are depreciating in value. I also like the location and incredible amount of available space.

Forgive my completely amateur attempt with an online autocad (my first time ever using one), i'm sure someone with much better skills than I could mock something up and even sort out a spectator roof over the West side grandstand.

I'd put the bulk of the 'fan' seating on the West side and keep the East for more box/club seating as it would minimize the number of people that would have to go 'over the bridge' so to speak and keep the overall height of the East side down. Having a larger grandstand on one side is not a foreign concept when you look at places like TD Place or 'old Mosaic'. One could depending on budget also look at another bridge on the south side as well, but wanted to leave an endzone more 'open' for the Grandstand stage to get wheeled it (would run it as more of an 'in the round' experience. If you really want to get fancy, a party deck or 'band stage' could be set up in the SE corner to facilitate half-time shows or hot tub/lazboy recliner promotional seating. Or a rum hut.

Not sure if you can see it, but I was thinking of a ribbon strip straight across the top of the East side stand. Get some video geeks to do some work and sort out a multi-camera array that gives a real-time look at the track that's blocked by the grandstand so you can see which wagon is leading the way.

http://i67.tinypic.com/mt9h4z.png
http://i63.tinypic.com/6xvku8.png
http://i64.tinypic.com/5baedc.png
http://i68.tinypic.com/2vbwgnq.png

Yes, the chuckwagon track is decidedly not to scale. Couldn't sort out how to make it 'huge', but really it's just there to illustrate how things run.

For rodeo purposes, may need to have a 'tunnel' coming right out at centrefield on the East side grandstand. Unless you could use the one I sorted in the SE fieldlevel corner.

As for the field, most likely a Fieldturf surface that you can drop an event deck on top of and layer with a good pack of dirt for Stampede week. If they can rebuild the track after the flood in a couple days, pretty sure they can drop in and remove some dirt with a few days on either side of the GOSOE.


Really, with a good field turf surface, you could run CFL, NASL, USport football on here, you'd just lose that 2 week window in July. Don't have to get too crazy with special conference rooms and such like the new mosaic has, or even team/practise facilities. I'd say rip down McMahon and keep the Stamps and Dinos practise facilities there, but put up a modest 5,000 seat grandstand to accommodate the UofC's needs.

As for the endzones on gameday, you could stage those pretty easily like the RedBlacks do in Ottawa for some more standing room only/party seating options.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm2MKebWYAAKSnu.jpg:large

Anyway. That's the brainstorm. Sleep beckons.

RyLucky
Apr 12, 2017, 1:15 PM
^ Cool idea! Can you only watch the end of the race though?

MalcolmTucker
Apr 12, 2017, 3:26 PM
^ Cool idea! Can you only watch the end of the race though?

Well, in my mind, think of it as a way to conceptualize different use zones more than scale, showing people that lack an imagination how things fit together, not relative sizes, not sightlines to the backstretch, homestretch and start, or how high from the ground the concourse would be.

upperloge
Apr 12, 2017, 5:53 PM
^ Cool idea! Can you only watch the end of the race though?

Haha. That's why it's a rough mock-up.

Might make more sense for the jumbotron and bridge to be on the south endzone. That way you see the race start and still have that nice open look to the north to see the final homestretch from the West grandstand.

Might be some benefit to the screen facing north rather than south for direct sunlight reasons as well.

upperloge
Apr 13, 2017, 6:32 AM
RyLucky had a good point about being able to see the homestretch of the Rangeland. Did a couple tweaks and moved the bridge/jumbotron to the south side. Opens up sightlines for the final leg to the finish.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2ivjo11.png
http://i64.tinypic.com/30k6fk6.png
http://i68.tinypic.com/kb3h2x.png
http://i63.tinypic.com/2z5luz4.png

I'd say some portable party patio in the north endzone on gameday. And really, the East side grandstand could be very much like the TD Place 'new' grandstand. Lots of boxes and such but overall less height and the smaller of the two. Give it a tunnel coming out at mid-field if rodeo needs something like that, or for a big team gallop onto the field. Hmm. Crap. Haven't considered a runway for Quick Six. That would need to be a consideration somehow.

http://ottawa.ca/cs/groups/content/@webottawa/documents/image/mdaw/mdc1/~edisp/cap076083.jpg

TD Place has some interesting stairs on the end of their grandstand that might work better than the world's largest ramp I mocked up into this.

http://storage.ottawasun.com/v1/suns-prod-images/1297545383441_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80

Again, not a pro. Anybody have some better tools than TinkerBox, by all means give it a shot!

outoftheice
Apr 13, 2017, 10:01 AM
Some interesting tweets from Rogers Place in Edmonton last night complaining about the length of the lines for the bathroom. https://twitter.com/OilersNation/status/852381693717618688

After attending a concert at Rogers Place that had me waiting 15 minutes in line to get through security at the main entrance and ten minutes in line to access the second bowl (one of the two escalators was broken and they wouldn't let people use it as stairs) this doesn't surprise me one bit.

Thing is the NHL and the Flames keep pointing Rogers Place as the shining example of everything Calgary hopes to gain compared to our tired old Saddledome. All I saw was a shiny new arena with a large number of private boxes suffering from the exact same problems fans complain about at the Saddledome except the Saddledome offered far better concession options. If this is what progress looks like at the cost of hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars the Flames can forget it.

technomad
Apr 13, 2017, 4:01 PM
Lots of good ideas with the grandstand stadium! While I'm still partial to having a stadium that can be used year round, leveraging the grandstand would probably cost far less than half of a BC place equivalent..

DizzyEdge
Apr 13, 2017, 4:20 PM
http://i68.tinypic.com/2ivjo11.png


Can't wait to buy this playset

esquire
Apr 13, 2017, 4:22 PM
^ CS ... Caillou Stadium?

The colours even sort of match

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/caillou/images/3/3a/Caillou-xl-pictures-14.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121117103249

technomad
Apr 13, 2017, 4:23 PM
How many of BC Place's 200 days of use a year are events with attendees paying for seats in the stands and concessions being open for business?

McMahon in Calgary talks about how much usage that stadium gets but aside from the 10 or so Stampeder home games, it's just UofC Dino games, minor league football games, a few high school football games and practices for the Stampeders and Dino's and a handful of other oddball events.a. Of all of those stadium uses, concessions are only opened for the Stampeder and Dino games as well as sometimes a few high school games while seats in the stands are only sold for the Dino's and Stampeders.

That means the lights are on and a skeleton staff is still there for the majority of the McMahon's uses but it most likely isn't making any money. I wonder if the same could be said of BC Place's 200 uses in a year?

Sure, the marketing department of any venue is going to maximize their usage number any way they can. But, I can't see a BC place sized venue getting a lot of free/subsidized community use, especially if McMahon can stay as is, or take on the field-house role.

As for the concession thing, yeah it's good revenue, vital even. Wonder how revenues for sporting events would compare with a day of conference use?

While you might not sell any hyper-inflated concession food on skeleton staff days, many of them will grab lunch or drinks after work somewhere in the neighborhood, so the stadium is still a good thing for establishments in the area.

DizzyEdge
Apr 13, 2017, 5:09 PM
^ CS ... Caillou Stadium?

The colours even sort of match

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/caillou/images/3/3a/Caillou-xl-pictures-14.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121117103249

http://i.imgur.com/phpPiJy.jpg

upperloge
Apr 13, 2017, 5:30 PM
^ CS ... Caillou Stadium?

The colours even sort of match

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/caillou/images/3/3a/Caillou-xl-pictures-14.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121117103249

Haha.

Calgary Stampede
or
Calgary Stampeders

I'd have done the horse, but....hey, I've used that program for a total of 3 hours now. Gimme some time.

upperloge
Apr 13, 2017, 5:34 PM
Can't wait to buy this playset

I was tempted to do the mock up with Lego. I've got enough of those darn blocks embedded in the bottom on my slipper from when the kids don't clean it up.

Found TinkerBox. Online autocad site. Been fun to nose around on.

HomeInMyShoes
Apr 13, 2017, 5:56 PM
The graphic of Calliou in he stadium. :haha:

esquire
Apr 13, 2017, 6:07 PM
The graphic of Calliou in he stadium. :haha:

Oh geez, I actually snorted when I saw that.

tomthumb2
Apr 13, 2017, 8:48 PM
Some interesting tweets from Rogers Place in Edmonton last night complaining about the length of the lines for the bathroom. https://twitter.com/OilersNation/status/852381693717618688

After attending a concert at Rogers Place that had me waiting 15 minutes in line to get through security at the main entrance and ten minutes in line to access the second bowl (one of the two escalators was broken and they wouldn't let people use it as stairs) this doesn't surprise me one bit.

Thing is the NHL and the Flames keep pointing Rogers Place as the shining example of everything Calgary hopes to gain compared to our tired old Saddledome. All I saw was a shiny new arena with a large number of private boxes suffering from the exact same problems fans complain about at the Saddledome except the Saddledome offered far better concession options. If this is what progress looks like at the cost of hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars the Flames can forget it.

That is incredible. Of course Gary Bettman didn't have to go up there did he.

Rollerstud98
Apr 13, 2017, 11:28 PM
Sure, the marketing department of any venue is going to maximize their usage number any way they can. But, I can't see a BC place sized venue getting a lot of free/subsidized community use, especially if McMahon can stay as is, or take on the field-house role.

As for the concession thing, yeah it's good revenue, vital even. Wonder how revenues for sporting events would compare with a day of conference use?

While you might not sell any hyper-inflated concession food on skeleton staff days, many of them will grab lunch or drinks after work somewhere in the neighborhood, so the stadium is still a good thing for establishments in the area.



The field house will need to be covered, something that can be used 24/7/365 basically.

outoftheice
Apr 21, 2017, 1:25 PM
Flames Plan B arena details to be unveiled on Monday.

http://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4079031

Details about a proposal for a new Calgary arena are expected to be made public Monday.

For months, there have been hints about the so-called "Plan B." The proposal is to build a replacement for the Saddledome in Victoria Park, instead of the proposed CalgaryNext project in the West Village that includes an arena, stadium and fieldhouse.

In a report to city council to be discussed Monday, the plan is now called the "Victoria Park Option."

tomthumb2
Apr 21, 2017, 4:20 PM
^^^ I almost don't even care anymore. It's dragged on so goddamned long and can't get excited about it anymore.

suburbia
Apr 22, 2017, 12:14 AM
Flames Plan B arena details to be unveiled on Monday.

http://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4079031

The great thing about this option is that it will re-start almost set-to-go plans for the Stampede, including Olympic Way (restaurants and services), the BMO Centre (hall F plus integration of more convention type facilities) and the 17th avenue integration (including replacing Big 4). This will create broader opportunities for businesses, and build on all the infrastructure already in-place. From the Flames owners' perspective the downside will be, they can't make even more money delivering all the additional services themselves (as they had hoped to do in West Village where some own additional land and wanted dibs on other development rights). Of the two, this one is clearly best, and I'm looking forward to Olympic way being fully developed all the way up through East Village.

People.talking
Apr 22, 2017, 12:59 AM
I'm at the point now with this project now, that I don't care where I goes or how much its costs I just want a new f*cking arena...

speedog
Apr 22, 2017, 3:44 AM
New thread title - New Victoria Park arena?

suburbia
Apr 22, 2017, 4:10 AM
I just want a new f*cking arena...

New thread title - New Victoria Park arena?

Perhaps just make it generic IE new arena. That way "other" locations can also be discussed. Clearly the telegraphing by many on this forum about it being west village and only west village was proven wrong.

bt04ku
Apr 22, 2017, 4:12 AM
The great thing about this option is that it will re-start almost set-to-go plans for the Stampede, including Olympic Way (restaurants and services), the BMO Centre (hall F plus integration of more convention type facilities) and the 17th avenue integration (including replacing Big 4). This will create broader opportunities for businesses, and build on all the infrastructure already in-place. From the Flames owners' perspective the downside will be, they can't make even more money delivering all the additional services themselves (as they had hoped to do in West Village where some own additional land and wanted dibs on other development rights). Of the two, this one is clearly best, and I'm looking forward to Olympic way being fully developed all the way up through East Village.

It's no Firepark, though.

H.E.Pennypacker
Apr 22, 2017, 4:36 PM
Glad to hear details are going to be released so soon.

This proposal seems much more plausible and could come to fruition sooner than later.

The Urbanist
Apr 22, 2017, 6:05 PM
Glad to hear details are going to be released so soon.

This proposal seems much more plausible and could come to fruition sooner than later.

I agree - this option in much more sensible and could assist in the build out of the remainder of the Stampede and Victoria Park lands. This could finally give Calgary a true entertainment district.:yes:

craner
Apr 23, 2017, 10:24 PM
But no replacement for McMahon. :(

speedog
Apr 24, 2017, 12:54 AM
It's no Firepark, though.

And your point is?

SHOFEAR
Apr 24, 2017, 1:40 PM
Some interesting tweets from Rogers Place in Edmonton last night complaining about the length of the lines for the bathroom. https://twitter.com/OilersNation/status/852381693717618688

After attending a concert at Rogers Place that had me waiting 15 minutes in line to get through security at the main entrance and ten minutes in line to access the second bowl (one of the two escalators was broken and they wouldn't let people use it as stairs) this doesn't surprise me one bit.

Thing is the NHL and the Flames keep pointing Rogers Place as the shining example of everything Calgary hopes to gain compared to our tired old Saddledome. All I saw was a shiny new arena with a large number of private boxes suffering from the exact same problems fans complain about at the Saddledome except the Saddledome offered far better concession options. If this is what progress looks like at the cost of hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars the Flames can forget it.

The bathroom lines aren't that bad. Sure they are longer than what they were before, but because you now have 25 pissers rather than 7 or 8, the lines move very fast. With that many, the line is basically a slow constant moving march.

Calgarian
Apr 24, 2017, 5:19 PM
But no replacement for McMahon. :(

That will happen. I think that's the project it makes sense to combine, leave the arena as a separate building. If they are smart, they will accommodate for a new baseball stadium along with a new football stadium and fieldhouse.

tomthumb2
Apr 24, 2017, 7:03 PM
That will happen. I think that's the project it makes sense to combine, leave the arena as a separate building. If they are smart, they will accommodate for a new baseball stadium along with a new football stadium and fieldhouse.

I don't think so. Under this new plan, McMahon only gets some renovations.

Rollerstud98
Apr 24, 2017, 7:04 PM
Anything out yet on this?

Bigtime
Apr 24, 2017, 7:26 PM
Nope, Council pushed it back until after lunch to give themselves time to talk. Should be coming up shortly.

Calgarian
Apr 24, 2017, 7:46 PM
I don't think so. Under this new plan, McMahon only gets some renovations.

They will have to replace McMahon at some point, like the Saddledome it misses out on a lot of revenue from concerts and shows that can't be held there currently. Is that new report out yet?

MalcolmTucker
Apr 24, 2017, 8:13 PM
know full well that the economics essentially never works for public money to be put towards an arena like this

Depends what you mean by economics! Profit, economic activity boost, sure.

As for your other thoughts, funny you should mention that. Just a happy accident.

Bigtime
Apr 24, 2017, 8:23 PM
New Arena is the top building centre of the image.

http://i.imgur.com/R80BYsF.png

suburbia
Apr 24, 2017, 8:30 PM
New Arena is the top building centre of the image.

http://i.imgur.com/R80BYsF.png

Interesting discussions. Are you there Aaron? I'm in red.

Anyway, key points in my view include:
- West village / stampede integration into an entertainment district, leveraging existing assets such as NMC, BMO Centre, and growing collection of hotel options north of the 4th street underpass
- Leveraging to build out Olympic Way into a "high street" entry to the stampede grounds, with restaurant, service and entertainment options
- Building on strength IE making a successful BMO Centre better and stronger, building out hall F and leveraging with arena
- Leverage green line
- No toxic clean-up required
- No major roadworks required
- No using prominent riverfront for a super large building

[EDIT]

Wonder if there is any thought around improving access to 4th street from the Reconciliation Bridge, so that from memorial it is a clear entry to Olympic Way avoiding McLeod completely. I get that Reconciliation access could create challenges up-stream at Memorial, but just throwing it out there. Clearly a direct path via the 4th Avenue connector would be best as it is free-flow at Memorial, but that is more substantial infrastructure.

Irrespective, I'm hopeful that going forward, more people choose LRT for events going forward. Fact that this site would be serviced by both the Green and Red lines is huge.

UofC.engineer
Apr 24, 2017, 8:53 PM
Thanks fellas!

please keep the updates coming :cheers:

Bigtime
Apr 24, 2017, 9:11 PM
Nope I'm not there, just casually following along via twitter.

Rollerstud98
Apr 24, 2017, 10:02 PM
Any information on the arena itself? Capacity and things like that? Coral going to be torn down with this plan?

suburbia
Apr 24, 2017, 10:07 PM
Any information on the arena itself? Capacity and things like that? Coral going to be torn down with this plan?

I don't think any of those need to be nailed down for this phase.

The $500M redevelopment / expansion of the BMO Centre was mentioned as part of this proposed master plan, and that includes zapping the Corral.

Unfortunate about the coral bleaching issues in Australia though.

patm
Apr 24, 2017, 10:08 PM
Why keep CalgaryNext alive?

Short of the Flames deciding to pay for way more of it than they originally proposed, is there anything that could happen to make it viable? I thought it was essentially dead at this point. Weird vote. Even Nenshi voted to keep it alive.

I wonder if it's a bit of lip service to the Flames?

MalcolmTucker
Apr 24, 2017, 10:19 PM
Why keep CalgaryNext alive?

Short of the Flames deciding to pay for way more of it than they originally proposed, is there anything that could happen to make it viable? I thought it was essentially dead at this point. Weird vote. Even Nenshi voted to keep it alive.

I wonder if it's a bit of lip service to the Flames?

Because it is always good to have multiple options in a multi option analysis.

Coldrsx
Apr 24, 2017, 10:32 PM
Excited for you guys.

suburbia
Apr 24, 2017, 10:34 PM
As much as I don't like the public funding as proposed by CalgaryNext, I also don't like taking options off the table. If the Flames kicked in MUCH more money, it might start to make more sense...?

I think what the mayor has said is that in its *current* form it is dead. So yeah, if the Flames decided to kick in more, perhaps it becomes a viable option again. What we do know is that it is not viable in current form. If not viable, let's not waste time on it.

With Big Red, however, I'm sensing that this is a political maneuver. Anything to bog down Nenshi and ensure there is limited movement on all files.

Frankly speaking, if the Victoria Park option is the better plan, best to put all horses in front of this wagon and get it done. I really like that it will leverage the BMO expansion and redevelopment, and together that will be a fantastic facilities complex. Two train lines servicing it makes it hugely appetizing also.

Just Build It
Apr 25, 2017, 12:12 AM
Thank gif they've finally turned their attention to Victoria Park, it was the logical choice all along.

PPAR
Apr 25, 2017, 2:01 AM
Two questions
Is the plan to keep the Saddledome as an operational facility, and potentially related, is there any talk of how this development could tie into an Olympic bid?