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View Full Version : New Downtown Calgary Arena


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SEsupporter
Apr 25, 2017, 6:01 AM
I would be in favour of building Calgary next on expanded Victoria park planb land. No creosote/lack of parking/road issues etc IF the new arena alone is over 500 million and the cgynext combined stadium,fieldhouse,arena is 880 million. Win-win for all if flames put in some more money. McMahan is crap and saddledome if you are over 6ft tall. No foot room at all and have cramped leg room. I'd put in taxpayer money to finally build it all for 880 million on vicpark expanded site

You Need A Thneed
Apr 25, 2017, 6:03 AM
Two questions
Is the plan to keep the Saddledome as an operational facility, and potentially related, is there any talk of how this development could tie into an Olympic bid?

This is still to be determined. An Olympic Games would certainly influence how long it would be kept in a similar function as it is now.

Fuzz
Apr 25, 2017, 1:21 PM
It is a little odd that when they dropped CalgaryNEXT they didn't consider moving the whole thing to Vic Park. Is there a reason for that? They'd need the block to the east as well, but that looks doable.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 25, 2017, 1:36 PM
The issue with CalgaryNext beyond the creosote was that the city was unwilling to invest in the cost difference between a small capacity field house and a cfl game capacity one. Wasn't seen as offsetting a similar scale investment in a cfl stadium elsewhere.

Cyric
Apr 25, 2017, 3:05 PM
It is a little odd that when they dropped CalgaryNEXT they didn't consider moving the whole thing to Vic Park. Is there a reason for that? They'd need the block to the east as well, but that looks doable.

The blocks to the east of where plan B has been proposed already have planned developments so I doubt the Stampede board would be interested in including that with the land swap. Those blocks are part of the Youth Campus and Calgary Opera developments.

CalgaryAlex
Apr 25, 2017, 3:43 PM
The blocks to the east of where plan B has been proposed already have planned developments so I doubt the Stampede board would be interested in including that with the land swap. Those blocks are part of the Youth Campus and Calgary Opera developments.

I remember complaining about those developments as they turned their backs on 12 Ave (and were generally boring). I hope they make changes, since there will be a ton of pedestrian activity in the area if the arena is indeed built across the street.

Calgarian
Apr 25, 2017, 4:21 PM
Two questions
Is the plan to keep the Saddledome as an operational facility, and potentially related, is there any talk of how this development could tie into an Olympic bid?

Woulde definitely make sense to keep the Saddledome for the Olympics, we can have the figure skating in the Dome, and hockey in the new barn. Sadly the Corral is protected, because it would make sense to demolish that place and keep the Saddledome.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 25, 2017, 5:11 PM
Woulde definitely make sense to keep the Saddledome for the Olympics, we can have the figure skating in the Dome, and hockey in the new barn. Sadly the Corral is protected, because it would make sense to demolish that place and keep the Saddledome.

And afterwards, selectively retire interior parts of the dome to get it to a nice, well workable) 5-8000 person concert venue, unless the maintenance would be insane.

Beazley66
Apr 25, 2017, 6:22 PM
The mixed-use, multi modal possibilities offer some pretty exciting potential. I was listening in on the council meeting webcast, and the discussion was also about the "pending" Green Line LRT. That aspect of planned development ie. schedule, route etc. is probably applying some stress on providing a comprehensive development. Also, Lamb developments, I believe, has purchased additional plots in and around Orchard, and that is pretty awesome. The bigger challenge for me would be envisioning a comprehensive urban strategy with projects that are already anticipated, or under construction. It's not like Broadway Malyans' East Village master-plan, which was a more clearly defined "beginning", ie Blank Slate. Just my thoughts

patm
Apr 25, 2017, 6:39 PM
I think this whole Stampede Trail development will fail miserably.

Two reasons:

- Not enough population to support all of these bars. A city of 1.4 million who mostly live in the suburbs can have one, one and half "bar" districts. Calgary already has 17th and Stephen Avenue. Stampede Trail will only steal business from these places.

- Too freaking cold. The Flames are the only tenant that will bring a capacity crowd on a regular basis and the problem is that for almost the entire regular season it is winter weather here. People aren't going to leisurely bounce around bar hopping before and after the game when it's -25. You might have a few major places that fill up before the game (at the expense of others) but if you're dreaming of something like LA Live, not a chance. Same problem with the Deerfoot Mall renovations that are happening now.

Unless Stampede Trail is small and indoors it'll be a ghost town. If they throw together like 4 or 5 bars and restaurants and then have rooftop and patio access on the exterior and then somehow have an interior hallway that allows you to go from bar to bar without going into the winter weather, maybe it can work on a small scale.

craner
Apr 25, 2017, 6:53 PM
Woulde definitely make sense to keep the Saddledome for the Olympics, we can have the figure skating in the Dome, and hockey in the new barn. Sadly the Corral is protected, because it would make sense to demolish that place and keep the Saddledome.
Isn't the plan to demolish the Corral as part of the BMO Centre expansion ?

Cage
Apr 25, 2017, 6:55 PM
Two questions
Is the plan to keep the Saddledome as an operational facility, and potentially related, is there any talk of how this development could tie into an Olympic bid?

While not discussed at present time, the future of the Saddledome should be viewed through the same lense as the current Edmonton Coliseum transformation project.

And afterwards, selectively retire interior parts of the dome to get it to a nice, well workable) 5-8000 person concert venue, unless the maintenance would be insane.

To recap the Edmonton experience, the City had to put money into Northlands in order to provide midterm financial stabilization (through a 2 year mortgage deferral option) while the future of the Coliseum is determined.

IIRC, the operating deficit incurred by Edmonton Northlands was 7-8 million per annum while the Coliseum is repurposed. I would expect the Stampede Board to look at the Edmonton experience and say "Hard NO" to the option to take ownership of a repurposed Saddledome.

Would definitely make sense to keep the Saddledome for the Olympics, we can have the figure skating in the Dome, and hockey in the new barn. Sadly the Corral is protected, because it would make sense to demolish that place and keep the Saddledome.

An Olympic event is 9 years away in 2026, the earliest the Vic Park Arena could be operational is likely 6 years. So keeping the Saddledome operational for an Olympics is 3 years of financial support or about $25 to $30 million dollars in 2016 funds (using the Edmonton example as a base).

MalcolmTucker
Apr 25, 2017, 8:03 PM
While the operating subsidy would be annoying, it might be a price worth paying. The Calgary Jubilee receives an operating subsidy of about $3.8 million a year.

After the Olympics not needing to maintain an iceplant would help for costs.

Calgarian
Apr 25, 2017, 8:43 PM
I think this whole Stampede Trail development will fail miserably.

Two reasons:

- Not enough population to support all of these bars. A city of 1.4 million who mostly live in the suburbs can have one, one and half "bar" districts. Calgary already has 17th and Stephen Avenue. Stampede Trail will only steal business from these places.
WE have several bar districts (17ave, 4st, Stephen Ave, Kensington...). Whether Stampede tr. is successful will depend on the type of businesses that go in there, we can definitely support more areas.

- Too freaking cold. The Flames are the only tenant that will bring a capacity crowd on a regular basis and the problem is that for almost the entire regular season it is winter weather here. People aren't going to leisurely bounce around bar hopping before and after the game when it's -25. You might have a few major places that fill up before the game (at the expense of others) but if you're dreaming of something like LA Live, not a chance. Same problem with the Deerfoot Mall renovations that are happening now. Disagree completely. Cold weather is just part of living in Calgary, people don't just hide inside when it's cold, they still go out and do stuff. If you build an entertainment area that is well served by places people like, then it will be a success. This too cold argument for everything in this city drives me nuts.

Unless Stampede Trail is small and indoors it'll be a ghost town. If they throw together like 4 or 5 bars and restaurants and then have rooftop and patio access on the exterior and then somehow have an interior hallway that allows you to go from bar to bar without going into the winter weather, maybe it can work on a small scale.
Why does it need to be indoors? 17th ave isn't indoors, Kensington isn't indoors, Stephen Ave isn't indoors. Do you really not go out if it's cold out? put on a damn coat and it will be fine.

Isn't the plan to demolish the Corral as part of the BMO Centre expansion ?

I think the Corral is protected, so it can't be demolished. The plans for expansion of BMO are towards Stampede Casino AFAIK.

Bigtime
Apr 25, 2017, 8:49 PM
Correct that there is still space for I believe two more halls in BMO heading towards the casino building. Those newest halls there are D & E, so I'd assume any new ones would be F & G.

H.E.Pennypacker
Apr 25, 2017, 8:59 PM
I think this whole Stampede Trail development will fail miserably.

Two reasons:

- Not enough population to support all of these bars. A city of 1.4 million who mostly live in the suburbs can have one, one and half "bar" districts. Calgary already has 17th and Stephen Avenue. Stampede Trail will only steal business from these places.

- Too freaking cold. The Flames are the only tenant that will bring a capacity crowd on a regular basis and the problem is that for almost the entire regular season it is winter weather here. People aren't going to leisurely bounce around bar hopping before and after the game when it's -25. You might have a few major places that fill up before the game (at the expense of others) but if you're dreaming of something like LA Live, not a chance. Same problem with the Deerfoot Mall renovations that are happening now.

Unless Stampede Trail is small and indoors it'll be a ghost town. If they throw together like 4 or 5 bars and restaurants and then have rooftop and patio access on the exterior and then somehow have an interior hallway that allows you to go from bar to bar without going into the winter weather, maybe it can work on a small scale.

To your first point, the redevelopment of this corridor (which would be more than just bars) can be sustained with more mixed-use development and residential towers. The is large potential to increase the population density in this area and that would help sustain the retail on a day to day basis. The Railtown lands, the Orchard, the growing East Village, multiple rental towers along Macleod Trail are all in the vicinity. Those other areas are sustained would not be affected to the magnitude you're suggesting.

To the second point, how many days is it actually that cold to the extent of going outside is not healthy? That's hyperbolic. It's part of living in Calgary, and retail districts survive. Asides from the Flames, the Stampede would be a huge draw for that corridor not to mention potential concerts, events at BMO, etc.

It will probably not be like LA Live but that doesn't mean it can't be a successful, vibrant entertainment district.

The Fisher Account
Apr 25, 2017, 9:46 PM
^^

LA Live isn't a great example. Mike Brown from CMLC actually commented in Council yesterday during his Victoria Park presentation that LA Live is usually dead when there are no events and that it is his groups job to ensure that doesn't happen here

Fuzz
Apr 25, 2017, 9:48 PM
I think one of the benefits of the Victoria Park location in the regard is it only really needs one or 2 public faces. The rest backs onto the Stampede grounds, so it doesn't need to be surrounded by an district, just the 2 sides.

tomthumb2
Apr 25, 2017, 10:05 PM
Will be interesting to see concepts/renders but at the pace this is going at - that could be quite a while.

Too bad the only player left out of all this are the Stamps. As a STH its really disappointing.

tomthumb2
Apr 25, 2017, 10:29 PM
^^

LA Live isn't a great example. Mike Brown from CMLC actually commented in Council yesterday during his Victoria Park presentation that LA Live is usually dead when there are no events and that it is his groups job to ensure that doesn't happen here

Wow - if a huge city like LA has that problem, how can Calgary possibly tackle the same challenge. Maybe we do something like Nashville? Apparently the area around their arena is always hopping.

patm
Apr 25, 2017, 10:31 PM
If you're expecting to build residential towers all around Stampede Trail that's fine, but who is going to live in them? You're essentially arguing that Stampede Trail will work if we get thousands of new young Calgarians willing to pay inner city housing prices to live right around this area.

Yes, if thousands people decide to move to that immediate area it'll be successful but I'm saying that it won't work in the current economic climate. Not unless it's at the expense of any of the other major bar districts.

As for the weather, if the idea is that people are supposed to bounce around bar to bar, it won't work in the winter. In the winter people will go to a bar and stay there and if it's colder than -20 they won't even go out at all. You'll have 1 or 2 successful bars and a bunch of empty ones.

Calgarian
Apr 25, 2017, 10:52 PM
How I see Stampede Trail working, is it has to be in conjunction with the redevelopment of Victoria Park and East Village. A new arena will be a good first step, adding something like a Real Sports would also help, but this isn't a build it and they will come scenario, we need people in the area all the time, not just event nights or Stampede. Downtown is close, but there isn't really anything in that part of downtown to provide customers, that's why Vagabond is pretty much the only place to go in the area (aside from the Casino of course). The new hotels in the area should help as well.

As for cold weather, like I said, all the other entertainment streets do just fine in -20. And there are only 20 or so days a year where it is that cold, so not really a problem.

Calgarian
Apr 25, 2017, 10:54 PM
Wow - if a huge city like LA has that problem, how can Calgary possibly tackle the same challenge. Maybe we do something like Nashville? Apparently the area around their arena is always hopping.

Never been there, but it's supposed to be in a sort of dead zone in DT LA. An arena by it's nature will be dead most of the time, that's why you try to combine it with other uses.

suburbia
Apr 25, 2017, 11:43 PM
Never been there, but it's supposed to be in a sort of dead zone in DT LA. An arena by it's nature will be dead most of the time, that's why you try to combine it with other uses.

I've been there and it indeed is a deadzone outside of sports and events. While the arena complex itself is integrated with some restaurants and the like, the area beyond the footprint of the sports and convention facilities is void of anything to do and any other activities. On one side is a massive freeway right up against the site. On the other side is really nothing. Like seriously.

The stampede / victoria park are active way beyond the Staples Centre location, and have other pieces such as the NMC, 17th avenue leading to the stampede, and the still to be developed Olympic Way. In the LA example, there are also no really close hotels in the vicinity that people can walk over from. While that is the case in Calgary also, the Olympic Way, Stampede and West Village planning deals with this. Regarding LA, I know the shortcoming specifically because I was attending a convention at the site and wanted to stay close. I couldn't. I walked out of the facility to look around, thinking - hey this is LA there will be tonnes. Nothin'.

[EDIT]

Was just checking Google maps and looks like there is large scale development across from the Staples Centre and LA convention centre, so perhaps my prior observations are no longer valid.

msmariner
Apr 26, 2017, 12:38 AM
WE have several bar districts (17ave, 4st, Stephen Ave, Kensington...). Whether Stampede tr. is successful will depend on the type of businesses that go in there, we can definitely support more areas.

Disagree completely. Cold weather is just part of living in Calgary, people don't just hide inside when it's cold, they still go out and do stuff. If you build an entertainment area that is well served by places people like, then it will be a success. This too cold argument for everything in this city drives me nuts.


Why does it need to be indoors? 17th ave isn't indoors, Kensington isn't indoors, Stephen Ave isn't indoors. Do you really not go out if it's cold out? put on a damn coat and it will be fine.



I think the Corral is protected, so it can't be demolished. The plans for expansion of BMO are towards Stampede Casino AFAIK.

As per a story on March 16, 2016 on CBC "the Corral will be torn down if the $500 BMO centre expansion goes ahead". The Stampede CEO said it is a big block of concrete and has no value

PPAR
Apr 26, 2017, 1:39 AM
Suburbia is right, I have been there a couple times as well and LA live is not particularly special. Many better sports and entertainment areas in the US.
As for Calgary being too cold, I would guess there are maybe 20 or 30 evenings a year where the temperature is significantly below -10C. That leaves 90 to 95% of the year when walking outside is no big deal. Calgary does better on this metric than Montreal, night life there is hardly restrained.

People.talking
Apr 26, 2017, 2:07 AM
As per a story on March 16, 2016 on CBC "the Corral will be torn down if the $500 BMO centre expansion goes ahead". The Stampede CEO said it is a big block of concrete and has no value
The only value I see in it is historical value...

suburbia
Apr 26, 2017, 3:41 AM
The only value I see in it is historical value...

Even the historical value is quite limited IMHO. But perhaps they can sell you a seat.

tomthumb2
Apr 26, 2017, 4:27 AM
Even the historical value is quite limited IMHO. But perhaps they can sell you a seat.

I think it has more historical value than that stupid smoke stack in Eau Claire but hey what do I know. All I can say is that it was a fun old barn to see junior games in, and Flames games those first few years. I even saw Canada play France there during the Olympics (I think it was a 5-5 tie, God we were shit, lol).

Having said that though, there's not much you can really do with it, except please save that buffalo head and all the great old photos in the concourse!

suburbia
Apr 26, 2017, 4:40 AM
As per a story on March 16, 2016 on CBC "the Corral will be torn down if the $500 BMO centre expansion goes ahead". The Stampede CEO said it is a big block of concrete and has no value

Has anyone seen a mock-up of the changes planned for BMO? $500M is significant. Adding Hall F would be only a fraction of that, so I'm particularly curious what would come in place of the Corral. I'd also like all of the concourse on the south side expanded - it is just way too tight.

CorporateWhore
Apr 26, 2017, 5:10 AM
In the winter people will go to a bar and stay there and if it's colder than -20 they won't even go out at all.

Starting to get old, huh polak? Welcome to the club.

Calgarian
Apr 26, 2017, 3:41 PM
As per a story on March 16, 2016 on CBC "the Corral will be torn down if the $500 BMO centre expansion goes ahead". The Stampede CEO said it is a big block of concrete and has no value

Awesome! I thought I remembered something about it being protected.

CalgaryAlex
Apr 26, 2017, 3:52 PM
Has anyone seen a mock-up of the changes planned for BMO? $500M is significant. Adding Hall F would be only a fraction of that, so I'm particularly curious what would come in place of the Corral. I'd also like all of the concourse on the south side expanded - it is just way too tight.

I'm also curious about what will happen where 17th Ave will come onto Stampede Park. Will it cross the tracks and just run into the BMO? Or will they take a chunk off of the BMO so 17th can join up with Olympic Way? I'm looking forward to seeing what the CMLC comes up with.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 26, 2017, 3:58 PM
I'm also curious about what will happen where 17th Ave will come onto Stampede Park. Will it cross the tracks and just run into the BMO? Or will they take a chunk off of the BMO so 17th can join up with Olympic Way? I'm looking forward to seeing what the CMLC comes up with.

Roads can curve.

CalgaryAlex
Apr 26, 2017, 4:16 PM
Roads can curve.

I guess if they tear down the Corral it could get to Olympic Way without much of a deviation.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 26, 2017, 4:22 PM
I guess if they tear down the Corral it could get to Olympic Way without much of a deviation.

The Corral doesn't make the deviation much worse, and it is only worse on a map, as in inelegant. In operation no one will notice, and the Stampede gets more 17th Ave street-front to develop.

Bad Grizzly
Apr 26, 2017, 4:52 PM
Very much so, and this is why I think the ICE district will be a fail once all is said and done.

Suburbia is right, I have been there a couple times as well and LA live is not particularly special. Many better sports and entertainment areas in the US.
As for Calgary being too cold, I would guess there are maybe 20 or 30 evenings a year where the temperature is significantly below -10C. That leaves 90 to 95% of the year when walking outside is no big deal. Calgary does better on this metric than Montreal, night life there is hardly restrained.

craner
Apr 26, 2017, 7:00 PM
^Bad Griz
What you quoted from PPAR doesn't really support your statement. :shrug:

Are you saying ICE district will fail because it's too cold ? (That's a rather ironic statement :haha:).

craner
Apr 26, 2017, 7:04 PM
Somewhere back in this thread (or the previous one) there was a schematic plan for the Stampede Grounds showing the BMO Centre expansion and the Corral demo. I thought it was posted by Suburbia but I guess not.

suburbia
Apr 26, 2017, 8:18 PM
Correct that there is still space for I believe two more halls in BMO heading towards the casino building. Those newest halls there are D & E, so I'd assume any new ones would be F & G.

No I don't think so. With the existing planning / what's on the books, only one more - that would be F. When the new side was built initially, it only had D, so at that time there was space for two more. Then subsequently, E was added, leaving only space for one additional 50K sf hall - IE F. Once that one is completed, the old (ABC) and new (DEF) would both be 150K sf. Difference being, that on the old side, only B is pillar free, whereas on the new side, each of the three are pillar free (though there are pillars between the halls). Additionally, not only do A and C have additional pillars throughout, they are also much lower clearance. Finally, the concourse on the new side is much much better, and the new side also is serviced better by washrooms / quality of washrooms.

You get some sense of it here, when you consider the full length of the concourse that goes to the end of the future hall DEF (and this also shows the A/C pillars):
http://venues.calgarystampede.com/upload/media_element/7/01/bmo-jan2011.pdf

You can see it even better (IE only space for one more hall) here:
http://venues.calgarystampede.com/upload/slide/8/01/aerial8.jpg

Bigtime
Apr 26, 2017, 8:22 PM
Yup, was looking on Google maps this morning and realized only room for one more hall. At one of our annual conventions we utilize A, B, and C but use the new entrance area and palomino room for events. Way better visual experience like you were saying versus the entrance to the original halls.

In other interesting breaking news...Stockholm just announced they are pulling out of the Winter Olympic bid for 2026. That leaves only Calgary considering a run. Perhaps we can bend the IOC to our will so they aren't forced to scrub them? This of course could all play into the new arena play as well.

suburbia
Apr 26, 2017, 8:23 PM
I guess if they tear down the Corral it could get to Olympic Way without much of a deviation.

Here is the prior master plan (without the new arena or Corral replacement, but including a view of how 17th would work, showing BMO including hall F, a replacement for Big4, and an expanded concourse on the old side - which has been my personal input on this for a long time):

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50e1b9c6e4b015296ce398f6/t/56eb4f3db654f933795780bc/1458262468917/Stampede+Master+Plan

The other piece this prior master plan dealt with is linking BMO proper to the Big 4 replacement. When the stampede has been at the limits of what it can host, the fact those two pieces are not linked (and the lower quality of Big 4) has been an issue. Some of these things may not be apparent to the average joe, but then the Stampede doesn't often talk about the events it has lost due to limitations. All these pieces integrated with the new stadium would allow facilitation of much more than an arena and field house (IE in context of non-sporting events / massive conventions) because there are just many, many more additional large spaces. Two halls at 150K each is a big deal just as a starting point (field house would be just one hall of 150K), let alone Big4 redevelopment and convention-type spaces in place of the Corral, all in addition to the new arena. This would basically toss a new convention centre out, as it would not be required (assuming hotel pieces also come together).

Rivers district master plan input portal:
http://www.calgarymlc.ca/riversdistrictmasterplan#vision

CalgaryAlex
Apr 26, 2017, 8:51 PM
Thanks for the info!

YYC23
Apr 27, 2017, 8:55 AM
I would like to get people's thoughts if it is possible to do the whole Calgarynext concept of an Arena, Stadium and Fieldhouse on the current land of Victoria Park in Railtown area and where the current Calgary Transit Bus Barns are located? I believe that the Calgary Transit Bus Barns are going to be eventually relocated elsewhere in Downtown Calgary. Would there be enough land for this concept to work over there? It would be great to also have the Green Line of the LRT have a Station in Calgarynext if that were possible it would really tie in nicely with the area. If this idea would work then it should be the new Plan A for the City of Calgary and Calgary Flames Sports and Entertainment.

JonnyCanuck
Apr 27, 2017, 2:35 PM
I am thinking the space between 11 Ave and the railway tracks might be too narrow for arena/stadiums. Perhaps, if the design included building over top the tracks but then you would need all the land on the north side as well. The space between 9 Ave is even narrower.

CalgaryAlex
Apr 27, 2017, 2:49 PM
I am thinking the space between 11 Ave and the railway tracks might be too narrow for arena/stadiums. Perhaps, if the design included building over top the tracks but then you would need all the land on the north side as well. The space between 9 Ave is even narrower.

I have read on SSP before that CP is unwilling to have stands or a stadium structure situated above the tracks.

My personal opinion is that Ramsay is due for a proper integration with the Beltline/EV, and this won't happen with a giant stadium being placed on the other side of Macdonald Bridge. I'm all for the "Plan B" arena placement, and future, unknown plans for a separate stadium (maybe at the Grandstand, as was discussed earlier).

MalcolmTucker
Apr 27, 2017, 3:39 PM
I would like to get people's thoughts if it is possible to do the whole Calgarynext concept of an Arena, Stadium and Fieldhouse on the current land of Victoria Park in Railtown area and where the current Calgary Transit Bus Barns are located? I believe that the Calgary Transit Bus Barns are going to be eventually relocated elsewhere in Downtown Calgary. Would there be enough land for this concept to work over there? It would be great to also have the Green Line of the LRT have a Station in Calgarynext if that were possible it would really tie in nicely with the area. If this idea would work then it should be the new Plan A for the City of Calgary and Calgary Flames Sports and Entertainment.

The thing that made the 'Arena, Stadium and Fieldhouse' not work was not only the location, it was that the extra money to turn the Fieldhouse into a CFL capable arena.

Calgarian
Apr 27, 2017, 3:50 PM
I like the idea of the arena and stadium as a single development, but there isn't anywhere good inner city, and I'd prefer to have the arena downtown. The Stadium gets used 20 - 30 nights a year, so I'm ok with it staying where it is. There is so much space on the McMahon site that we could easily incorporate everything else there, and still sell off most of the site for development. I'm sure the city could broker a deal between CSEC and the UofC similar to how they are doing with the Stampede for the arena.

UofC.engineer
Apr 27, 2017, 3:54 PM
I like the idea of the arena and stadium as a single development, but there isn't anywhere good inner city, and I'd prefer to have the arena downtown. The Stadium gets used 20 - 30 nights a year, so I'm ok with it staying where it is. There is so much space on the McMahon site that we could easily incorporate everything else there, and still sell off most of the site for development. I'm sure the city could broker a deal between CSEC and the UofC similar to how they are doing with the Stampede for the arena.

I think general concensus is that the Saddledome would inevitably have to face the wrecking ball once the new arena is built.

Is there a reason why CSEC couldn't build a stadium on the old site of the Saddledome?

Calgarian
Apr 27, 2017, 3:59 PM
I think general concensus is that the Saddledome would inevitably have to face the wrecking ball once the new arena is built.

Is there a reason why CSEC couldn't build a stadium on the old site of the Saddledome?

The Stampede hasn't said what they will do with the Dome as far as I know, would probably make a great venue for them to hold concerts and what not. I've heard rumours of them turning it into exhibition space, but no idea if that's true. Putting a football stadium there would eat up most of the area around where the Saddledome is now, and I doubt the Stampede would be fond of that idea.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 27, 2017, 4:14 PM
I like the idea of the arena and stadium as a single development, but there isn't anywhere good inner city, and I'd prefer to have the arena downtown. The Stadium gets used 20 - 30 nights a year, so I'm ok with it staying where it is. There is so much space on the McMahon site that we could easily incorporate everything else there, and still sell off most of the site for development. I'm sure the city could broker a deal between CSEC and the UofC similar to how they are doing with the Stampede for the arena.

The university has land quasi set aside that can host a new small stadium on campus.

http://i.imgur.com/ZBRsTv9.png

The UBC stadium to the left was a big grass bowl which expands the footprint even more than needed. 3,500 in the main grandstand. The right is the site on campus iirc.

The university community and certain sports teams/athletes would use a new field house facility for sure. But don't mistake a partnership with the university, or interest in the facility as funding from the university, or capacity for funding.

Calgarian
Apr 27, 2017, 4:35 PM
Either way, I think the current location is more than suitable for all CSEC desires that isn't the hockey rink...

People.talking
Apr 27, 2017, 5:08 PM
I am thinking the space between 11 Ave and the railway tracks might be too narrow for arena/stadiums. Perhaps, if the design included building over top the tracks but then you would need all the land on the north side as well. The space between 9 Ave is even narrower.

They can lower the tracks underground if needed.

Innersoul1
Apr 27, 2017, 5:22 PM
I remember complaining about those developments as they turned their backs on 12 Ave (and were generally boring). I hope they make changes, since there will be a ton of pedestrian activity in the area if the arena is indeed built across the street.

It's too late to change at this point. The Youth campus portion is partially complete and the new Campus for the Calgary Arts Academy will be occupied as of September.

suburbia
Apr 27, 2017, 5:29 PM
I would like to get people's thoughts if it is possible to do the whole Calgarynext concept of an Arena, Stadium and Fieldhouse on the current land of Victoria Park in Railtown area and where the current Calgary Transit Bus Barns are located?

Personally I think it is a non-starter, not because of land, but because the value proposition of CalgaryNEXT of being an events centre and convention space, in addition to sporting venues, is actually met wayyyyy better and in spades by the BMO centre, and particularly after what is on the books for its additions/renos. This was actually a massive flaw in the CalgaryNEXT project in the first place. The city and stampede have been making numerous plans and have spent capital on adding so much in that area, and after some of these things were already done, the Flames tried to plunk the thing somewhere completely separate. The investments on that half of the downtown, with current arena there and new arena there, include firstly the master planning for the BMO centre, the hotel, Olympic Way, and don't forget the 4th street underpass. So an arena there takes advantage of all those things already in place, or in the works. You don't then come in and say we'll add $500M or whatever so that we can compete with the better facilities you've created next door. A massive stadium will actually kill that area as it leaves less space for anything else, and completes instead of compliments.

UofC.engineer
Apr 27, 2017, 6:34 PM
The university has land quasi set aside that can host a new small stadium on campus.

http://i.imgur.com/ZBRsTv9.png

The UBC stadium to the left was a big grass bowl which expands the footprint even more than needed. 3,500 in the main grandstand. The right is the site on campus iirc.

The university community and certain sports teams/athletes would use a new field house facility for sure. But don't mistake a partnership with the university, or interest in the facility as funding from the university, or capacity for funding.

Huh! I never knew that. Thanks for the info.

I always figured if a University stadium was built, it would plopped down here:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0770638,-114.1424947,254m/data=!3m1!1e3

UofC.engineer
Apr 27, 2017, 6:39 PM
The Stampede hasn't said what they will do with the Dome as far as I know, would probably make a great venue for them to hold concerts and what not. I've heard rumours of them turning it into exhibition space, but no idea if that's true. Putting a football stadium there would eat up most of the area around where the Saddledome is now, and I doubt the Stampede would be fond of that idea.

It's nice to hear that there is talk about saving the Saddledome :cheers:

If the Saddledome is destroyed, what would do you think the land would be used for?

MalcolmTucker
Apr 27, 2017, 6:50 PM
Huh! I never knew that. Thanks for the info.

I always figured if a University stadium was built, it would plopped down here:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0770638,-114.1424947,254m/data=!3m1!1e3

that land is designated for high density residential and mixed commercial residential, and some parkland.

http://www.wcdt.ca/assets/Land-Use/July-2014-Land-Use-Plan/140717-FINAL-LAND-USE-PLAN.pdf

Calgarian
Apr 27, 2017, 7:51 PM
The university has land quasi set aside that can host a new small stadium on campus.

http://i.imgur.com/ZBRsTv9.png

The UBC stadium to the left was a big grass bowl which expands the footprint even more than needed. 3,500 in the main grandstand. The right is the site on campus iirc.

The university community and certain sports teams/athletes would use a new field house facility for sure. But don't mistake a partnership with the university, or interest in the facility as funding from the university, or capacity for funding.
I didn't know that, figured they would want to keep something at McMahon / Foothills athletic.

MalcolmTucker
Apr 27, 2017, 9:04 PM
I didn't know that, figured they would want to keep something at McMahon / Foothills athletic.

Would be up to the board at the time of course. The university likes to keep its options open. Would weigh more development space/land for land swaps near LRT with more space on the boundary of west and main campus for who knows what.

suburbia
Apr 28, 2017, 3:31 PM
that land is designated for high density residential and mixed commercial residential, and some parkland.

http://www.wcdt.ca/assets/Land-Use/July-2014-Land-Use-Plan/140717-FINAL-LAND-USE-PLAN.pdf

Yup - and that planning process has been in play for a very, very long time, and at this point in addition to master planning, includes creation of a trust and a land leasing process. I cannot imagine it changing (and nor do I think it should).

Fun to speculate sometimes, but a varsity stadium at that location is a non-starter.

esquire
Apr 28, 2017, 3:37 PM
Will be interesting to see concepts/renders but at the pace this is going at - that could be quite a while.

Too bad the only player left out of all this are the Stamps. As a STH its really disappointing.

If Winnipeg can get new NHL and CFL venues in under a decade, I think Calgary can do at least as well.

technomad
Apr 29, 2017, 4:14 PM
I am thinking the space between 11 Ave and the railway tracks might be too narrow for arena/stadiums. Perhaps, if the design included building over top the tracks but then you would need all the land on the north side as well. The space between 9 Ave is even narrower.

If you eliminated the bus barns, there's definitely enough room for a stadium and arena on the railtown lands without bridging the tracks

Alternately, the stadium could be built with a raised playing filed, so a transit facility could remain on site at grade. might even be possible to do the build one half at a time to keep the transit facility active?

Came up with the following layout as a way of bridging Stampede and Railtown lands by expanding conference space north instead of south. To offset, Stampede could sell/swap lands along macleod between the two LRT stations for residential development, or could be used along with lands south of elbow for the athletes village

Stampede trail would be a pedestrian oriented route, connecting 17 av with east village, including a 2nd riff type route though a couple of blocks, rising up through Railtown to go over CP tracks and 9av into Ft Calgary.

The southern strip along 9av between 6st and elbow is pretty tight, so could be tough to get large developments there. I thought this could be a good place for some buildings in scale with what's in inglewood, maybe using saved materials to mimic some lost heritage buildings. some rootftop patios that tied into the pedestrian bridge from ft Calgary to Railtown would be a license to print money...

Could be tough to get all the land owners to the table.. but saturday mornings were made for dreaming :cool:

http://i.imgur.com/K0joKDB.jpg

craner
May 3, 2017, 8:48 PM
There is an article in the Sun today by Rick Bell about the Olympic bid and how it helps the case for a new arena. In the article it mentions:

"The Dome and the proposed new arena would be close to each other and close to the Olympics opening and closing ceremonies at Stampede Park."

First I've heard of this, I assumed the ceremonies would be held at McMahon again. Disappointing because this is another blow to getting a new stadium or at least a substantially renovated McMahon.
:(

OTOH maybe this helps the case for renovating the Stampede grandstand as part of a new football stadium/racetrack that was discussed earlier.
:)

suburbia
May 4, 2017, 3:16 PM
There is an article in the Sun today by Rick Bell about the Olympic bid and how it helps the case for a new arena. In the article it mentions:

"The Dome and the proposed new arena would be close to each other and close to the Olympics opening and closing ceremonies at Stampede Park."

First I've heard of this, I assumed the ceremonies would be held at McMahon again.

I think that's fantastic, actually. Putting things on their head will get more creativity bubbling. Curious if the thought is the Stampede Grandstand with some sort of temporary second side created JIT for the games starting immediately after Stampede 2025?

Too bad Calgary's winters are so unpredictable, else they could plan a long winding ribbon-like skating rink around the entire track that could be used for the ceremonies, but also over the games as a public space. [just thinking outside of the box - I get there are many technical issues with this type of thing]

MalcolmTucker
May 4, 2017, 4:03 PM
I think that's fantastic, actually. Putting things on their head will get more creativity bubbling. Curious if the thought is the Stampede Grandstand with some sort of temporary second side created JIT for the games starting immediately after Stampede 2025?

Too bad Calgary's winters are so unpredictable, else they could plan a long winding ribbon-like skating rink around the entire track that could be used for the ceremonies, but also over the games as a public space. [just thinking outside of the box - I get there are many technical issues with this type of thing]

If you are locking down a lot of the park inside a security perimeter, putting in a very long skating circuit, even if you needed to artificially cool it, would be awesome. a gift for the city to putting up with everything. Could have it open from the 90 day countdown even on.

Joborule
May 7, 2017, 4:30 PM
If you eliminated the bus barns, there's definitely enough room for a stadium and arena on the railtown lands without bridging the tracks

Alternately, the stadium could be built with a raised playing filed, so a transit facility could remain on site at grade. might even be possible to do the build one half at a time to keep the transit facility active?

Came up with the following layout as a way of bridging Stampede and Railtown lands by expanding conference space north instead of south. To offset, Stampede could sell/swap lands along macleod between the two LRT stations for residential development, or could be used along with lands south of elbow for the athletes village

Stampede trail would be a pedestrian oriented route, connecting 17 av with east village, including a 2nd riff type route though a couple of blocks, rising up through Railtown to go over CP tracks and 9av into Ft Calgary.

The southern strip along 9av between 6st and elbow is pretty tight, so could be tough to get large developments there. I thought this could be a good place for some buildings in scale with what's in inglewood, maybe using saved materials to mimic some lost heritage buildings. some rootftop patios that tied into the pedestrian bridge from ft Calgary to Railtown would be a license to print money...

Could be tough to get all the land owners to the table.. but saturday mornings were made for dreaming :cool:

http://i.imgur.com/K0joKDB.jpg

Issue I have with this proposal is that I feel the land by the riverwalk would be better served with mixed-used development. The stadium would be only getting 10-14 days/nights of actual use - meaning it would be taking up prime downtown land with no activity for ~350 days a year.

If a new stadium is gonna be built outside of McMahon lands, I think a good spot would be the Green Line's 26 Avenue S.E TOD area (http://www.calgary.ca/transportation/ti/pages/transit-projects/green-line/area.aspx?areaID=4). It's in an industrial area so concern about noise isn't an issue, it's at the southern anchor for a future retail street along 11 Street S.E. (and 1.2km walk/one LRT stop from Inglewood), and the undeveloped lands to the west are apparently owned by the city, so acquiring them can be easier. Those lands offer good views of downtown and mountains, so the stadium and surrounding TOD development can be planned and integrated together. With this location, it's still relatively central, and I feel that the stadium wouldn't take away from the area when it's not gameday.

Vehicular traffic from all directions is also accommodated with access from Blackfoot (for Deerfoot commuters) and 25th ave.

https://preview.ibb.co/jaH6Qk/Future_Football_Stadium_Location.png (https://ibb.co/d3Vhy5)
host gifs (https://imgbb.com/)

milomilo
May 7, 2017, 6:06 PM
I like that idea. It would be a good incentive to tidy up the road network around that area as well. Getting from east of Blackfoot over to Macleod and downtown is painful right now.

PlexiG
May 8, 2017, 2:20 PM
I don't mind the idea, but this would be an extremely expensive earthworks project to build a stadium on a fairly drastic river valley hill side slope.

Issue I have with this proposal is that I feel the land by the riverwalk would be better served with mixed-used development. The stadium would be only getting 10-14 days/nights of actual use - meaning it would be taking up prime downtown land with no activity for ~350 days a year.

If a new stadium is gonna be built outside of McMahon lands, I think a good spot would be the Green Line's 26 Avenue S.E TOD area (http://www.calgary.ca/transportation/ti/pages/transit-projects/green-line/area.aspx?areaID=4). It's in an industrial area so concern about noise isn't an issue, it's at the southern anchor for a future retail street along 11 Street S.E. (and 1.2km walk/one LRT stop from Inglewood), and the undeveloped lands to the west are apparently owned by the city, so acquiring them can be easier. Those lands offer good views of downtown and mountains, so the stadium and surrounding TOD development can be planned and integrated together. With this location, it's still relatively central, and I feel that the stadium wouldn't take away from the area when it's not gameday.

Vehicular traffic from all directions is also accommodated with access from Blackfoot (for Deerfoot commuters) and 25th ave.

https://preview.ibb.co/jaH6Qk/Future_Football_Stadium_Location.png (https://ibb.co/d3Vhy5)
host gifs (https://imgbb.com/)

Calgarian
May 8, 2017, 4:56 PM
I don't mind the idea, but this would be an extremely expensive earthworks project to build a stadium on a fairly drastic river valley hill side slope.

Wouldn't be too bad, you would enter around ice level from 26th Ave and would drive down to probably concourse level from a turn off Blackfoot. My issue is the location, there's nothing in the area except warehouses, so everything would have to be built up around it, and i don't feel the stadium would be a good enough catalyst for this. Crossroads Market would probably do quite well though.

milomilo
May 8, 2017, 10:00 PM
I think the best thing is the location - it doesn't waste prime land that could be used for better things rather than a gigantic stadium that sees little use most of the year. It would look pretty cool on the hill there too.

I don't think Calgary really struggles to make vibrant districts organically so we shouldn't worry about placing sports buildings to artificially create entertainment zones.

suburbia
May 8, 2017, 10:51 PM
I think the best thing is the location - it doesn't waste prime land that could be used for better things rather than a gigantic stadium that sees little use most of the year. It would look pretty cool on the hill there too.

Now you see the value of Firepark!

milomilo
May 8, 2017, 11:57 PM
Now you see the value of Firepark!

I was actually thinking that when I was typing that!

If an arena can be worked into Victoria Park with a solid, decent plan with a combination of public and private funds then sure, I'd be good with that as it would be a good way to redevelop that particular area. But a stadium, which is even bigger and less well used? Nah, stick that in an unused wasteland somewhere next to major roadways, like the place we were talking about by Blackfoot, or Firepark, or Balzac.

Joborule
May 9, 2017, 4:52 AM
Wouldn't be too bad, you would enter around ice level from 26th Ave and would drive down to probably concourse level from a turn off Blackfoot. My issue is the location, there's nothing in the area except warehouses, so everything would have to be built up around it, and i don't feel the stadium would be a good enough catalyst for this. Crossroads Market would probably do quite well though.

The location right now is barren, so it's definitely a long play. The drawback in in the stadium is it's size and lack of use that deters it from being a good idea to take up prime downtown land; it's usage wouldn't justify it. So the only other locations you can put it in that's central, accessible both by vehicle and traffic, and isn't intrusive to residential communities, are industrial areas within the city centre range. That would be Firepark and this area south of Ramsey.

The latter I think works best for all parties involved (City, CSEC, and ticket holders) since the area is intended to be developed into higher density in the long-term. The stadium wouldn't be needed to complement this goal, but it also wouldn't interfere, and if anything, complement it. It should provide a nice boost in business for the 11 street retail street on gamedays. The stadium gets to be an anchor for a new high density community.

Calgarian
May 9, 2017, 4:15 PM
Yeah I guess the Stadium doesn't need to be downtown, I just don't think an industrial area is ideal at all. My preference for the stadium is still the current site, especially with all the redevelopment that is going to happen in the area in the near future.

artvandelay
May 9, 2017, 4:26 PM
It still makes the most sense to combine the arena and stadium from an economic perspective. Unfortunately our mayor doesn't understand that but he's shown himself to be somewhat of a financial neophyte.

Calgarian
May 9, 2017, 4:39 PM
It still makes the most sense to combine the arena and stadium from an economic perspective. Unfortunately our mayor doesn't understand that but he's shown himself to be somewhat of a financial neophyte.

Sure it makes sense, however there isn't a good location that can accommodate both. And this isn't the Mayor's proposal, it's the Flames, and they need to come up with something better than a site that they won't be able to build on for at least a decade.

artvandelay
May 9, 2017, 4:47 PM
Sure it makes sense, however there isn't a good location that can accommodate both. And this isn't the Mayor's proposal, it's the Flames, and they need to come up with something better than a site that they won't be able to build on for at least a decade.

The West Village is obviously the best site (transit and vehicular access wise now that the Crowchild changes are moving forward), but you could likely make the Victoria Park bus barn site work with alterations to adjacent roads. A new stadium needs to be closer to downtown and it needs to be multi-purpose (in some way) in order to drive traffic to the facility year round.

Redevelop McMahon as mixed-use office/retail/residential and build an appropriate sized outdoor field for the Dinos on campus. Easy!

The Fisher Account
May 9, 2017, 4:49 PM
. Unfortunately our mayor doesn't understand that but he's shown himself to be somewhat of a financial neophyte.

Yes, the Harvard-educated, former McKinsey consultant, Mayor of a city with 1.3M people, tasked with overseeing an operating budget of $2B is a financial neophyte.

Care to list your financial expertise credentials?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/798241/ari-gold-o.gif

Innersoul1
May 9, 2017, 5:04 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the Blackfoot suggestion is crazy talk. I mean really! I get the idea stadi aren't going to have 365 day usage, but you would never get the team behind an isolated location like that. There is nothing around it. I think it would be a tough sell and in the long run we would end up in a similar situation as Ottawa, where the isolation of the arena demands a better location.

Calgarian
May 9, 2017, 5:13 PM
The West Village is obviously the best site (transit and vehicular access wise now that the Crowchild changes are moving forward), but you could likely make the Victoria Park bus barn site work with alterations to adjacent roads. A new stadium needs to be closer to downtown and it needs to be multi-purpose (in some way) in order to drive traffic to the facility year round.

Redevelop McMahon as mixed-use office/retail/residential and build an appropriate sized outdoor field for the Dinos on campus. Easy!

The reason I see West Village as a non starter is this whole Creosote thing is going to drag on for years, and on top of that all the infrastructure realignment needs to be done as well. If the Flames want to wait another 15 years, then West Village may work out. Don't think they want to wait that long...

Joborule
May 9, 2017, 5:39 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the Blackfoot suggestion is crazy talk. I mean really! I get the idea stadi aren't going to have 365 day usage, but you would never get the team behind an isolated location like that. There is nothing around it. I think it would be a tough sell and in the long run we would end up in a similar situation as Ottawa, where the isolation of the arena demands a better location.

Difference between this in Ottawa is like comparing apples to oranges. Ottawa is outside of the city itself, and accessibility is difficult since there isn't any transit, limited roads, and is far removed from any urban hot spots areas. Not to mention, it's a hockey arena so gets more usages throughout the year. So for football stadiums, the location of Ottawa's arena actually isn't that bad based since NFL teams have built them out far before. Since it's games would only be occurring once a week/twice a month over a several month period, lack of accessibility isn't as big of a concern.

My proposed location is within the city, in fact less than a kilometer removed from Stampede Park, 1.2km from Inglewood, and 1.5km from downtown in general. There will be an LRT stop on the plot of land built within the next few years (granted greenline starts construction), and has a road network that allows vehicle access from all directions. And ultimately, the area is intended to become a TOD with mixed-used development, along with 11 st, and Inglewood isn't too far away either. (Mission/4 street isn't too far removed either via car)

I don't see how they're similar at all aside from the current state of underdevelopment. But my proposal at least has the intended potential for it.

I think that CSEC will have to - if they aren't already - consider building a new stadium outside of McMahon lands if they aren't interested in renovations. Because I don't believe the university is keen on the land being taken up by a stadium, and if there's a way they can rid of McMahon they'll be all for it. The only options I believe CSEC has is to convince the city to build the fieldhouse to football stadium specs, reno McMahon, or build a new stadium elsewhere in the city.

artvandelay
May 9, 2017, 5:47 PM
Yes, the Harvard-educated, former McKinsey consultant, Mayor of a city with 1.3M people, tasked with overseeing an operating budget of $2B is a financial neophyte.

Care to list your financial expertise credentials?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/798241/ari-gold-o.gif

I guess I'm an idiot, I only have a CFA and a finance undergrad. Does the mayor's experience in non-profit marketing and general business B.Comm trump that? His Harvard degree has nothing to do with finance and HKS is one of the easiest graduate schools to get into there.

I voted for the guy twice based on his background and promises of fiscal prudence but he has failed to execute time and time again. I certainly thought that mayor would behave in a fiscally responsible manner and judge projects based on long term financial consideration but he's shown himself to be just another politician.

The last straw for me was his stunningly ignorant defense of defined benefit pensions for public sector (http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/update+nenshi+slams+planned+cuts+public+sector+pensions/9802707/story.html). The world is moving away from DB pensions to DC and Calgary's pension contributions have doubled in the last decade the the point that we have the highest pension expense (as a % of operating) of any city in Canada outside basketcase Quebec. It's probably the clearest example of him being out of touch with modern financial theory and disappointing to those of us who voted for him based on his business background.

His analysis of the proposed arena/stadium project is another case of his tendencies toward populism. The report on Calgary Next prepared by administration was laughably bad yet he cited it as a reason for his disapproval of the project. By punting the McMahon replacement down the road we will lose the opportunity to gain economies of scale by combining projects that are indeed necessary in the short term future. This will result in a greater cost to the taxpayer overall if you consider time adjusted costs over the total life-cycle of the facilities (ie. replacement of McMahon after cosmetic renovations buy an additional 20 years of life). What's worse, is we will be left with a mediocre stadium that can't host concerts, MLS, World Cup, national team rugby, etc., and it poorly located for those of us who work downtown (ie. the target market for Stampeders tickets).

Apologies for the off-topic tangent, but it irritates me that people still think that fiscal responsibility is a priority for Nenshi. If you wish to discuss further, we can move to the municipal politics thread and I'd be happy to - I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to these things.

artvandelay
May 9, 2017, 5:52 PM
The reason I see West Village as a non starter is this whole Creosote thing is going to drag on for years, and on top of that all the infrastructure realignment needs to be done as well. If the Flames want to wait another 15 years, then West Village may work out. Don't think they want to wait that long...

Creosote remediation should be considered a sunk cost - it's going to be borne by taxpayers regardless of the ultimate destiny of the site (unless they can squeeze come cash out of Domtar, which they probably cannot).

From what I've heard from consultants familiar with the project, 6-8 years would be reasonable for the WV - this would be amenable to the Flames and would dovetail nicely with both the build-out of the East Village and the 2026 Olympic bid.

Fuzz
May 9, 2017, 6:27 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the Blackfoot suggestion is crazy talk. I mean really! I get the idea stadi aren't going to have 365 day usage, but you would never get the team behind an isolated location like that. There is nothing around it. I think it would be a tough sell and in the long run we would end up in a similar situation as Ottawa, where the isolation of the arena demands a better location.

Agreed. How is it any better than the current location? Why would you build there from scratch when you can rebuild where McMahon is? I don't see any logic to it.

Calgarian
May 9, 2017, 6:35 PM
Creosote remediation should be considered a sunk cost - it's going to be borne by taxpayers regardless of the ultimate destiny of the site (unless they can squeeze come cash out of Domtar, which they probably cannot).

From what I've heard from consultants familiar with the project, 6-8 years would be reasonable for the WV - this would be amenable to the Flames and would dovetail nicely with both the build-out of the East Village and the 2026 Olympic bid.

I've heard they may try to sue Domtar, but you're right, it will be the city and Province who have to pay, neither of which has even begun to consider how to pay for it, that's why I say it will probably be a decade at least before they can start on the actual arena.

rotten42
May 10, 2017, 2:00 PM
Apologies for the off-topic tangent, but it irritates me that people still think that fiscal responsibility is a priority for Nenshi. If you wish to discuss further, we can move to the municipal politics thread and I'd be happy to - I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to these things.

That's because Twitter and crushing publicly anybody that questions him are his number one priorities.

speedog
May 10, 2017, 6:47 PM
Agreed. How is it any better than the current location? Why would you build there from scratch when you can rebuild where McMahon is? I don't see any logic to it.

Does the UofC actually need to spend monies to rebuild their stadium? McMahon more than meets the iniversity's needs.

Fuzz
May 10, 2017, 7:02 PM
Does the UofC actually need to spend monies to rebuild their stadium? McMahon more than meets the iniversity's needs.

Agreed, my point I guess is that we don't need 2 stadiums, and having it adjacent to the UofC makes more sense than in the middle of an industrial area.

MalcolmTucker
May 10, 2017, 7:08 PM
Agreed, my point I guess is that we don't need 2 stadiums, and having it adjacent to the UofC makes more sense than in the middle of an industrial area.

If the Stampeders leave McMahon, the university will look seriously at building a new small stadium on campus.

suburbia
May 10, 2017, 11:04 PM
crushing publicly anybody that questions him are his number one priorities.

At best, you are an anonymous pot calling a kettle black. At worst, you are a desperate person with ulterior motives and no answers to real policy questions, hiding behind Internet anonymity, and hiding from forums where the Mayor could respond to your attacks.

One thing I'm particularly proud of about Nenshi is that he doesn't back down from bullies, and that he doesn't hide behind henchmen and aliases.

speedog
May 10, 2017, 11:39 PM
If the Stampeders leave McMahon, the university will look seriously at building a new small stadium on campus.

How do we know this?

milomilo
May 10, 2017, 11:55 PM
So I was thinking about the whole funding thing and I remembered that I have never heard much of European/British football (soccer) teams getting much in the way of public funding, for their much larger stadiums. This makes me call BS even more on the claim it's impossible for these things to be privately financed.

I did a bit of googling to back up my claims and I'm right, came across some articles like this one:

Public Money for Private Stadiums? (https://sites.duke.edu/wcwp/2015/03/28/public-money-for-private-stadiums/)

On Wednesday, Minnesota United was officially announced as an expansion side into Major League Soccer. The franchise looks to build a 20,000 seat stadium from scratch; however, the Minnesota Governor stated that Minnesota United and Major League Soccer will not be receiving public money for their private stadium [1]. Minnesota Democrats and Republicans came out in support of the governor’s decision. Ironically, a stadium under construction for the Minnesota Vikings of the NFL is receiving $498 million dollars of taxpayer money [2]. This seems to be the norm in the current sports atmosphere in the United States, as the St. Louis proposed a new stadium that would be financed by $400 million of public money and Wisconsin is planning to give $220 million of public bonds to the Milwaukee Bucks [3]. Why does this happen? The simple justification would be that stadiums provide an economic boom to a region by hosting events throughout the year. Proponents state that stadiums provide some construction jobs, some permeant jobs, and give local businesses a boost in visibility. However, this does not seem to frequently be the case. Robert Baade performed a statistical test to see if a new stadium or sports team was a boon to the local economy, and in many cases, there was no statistical economic difference before and after the stadium was built or the team was formed [4]. It turns out that many fans spend money at or around the stadium that would elsewhere be spent in or around the city.

If that is the case, then why do we still subsidize these stadiums? Perhaps one reason is that the taxpayers value their sports teams. Americans spend a considerable amount of time on Sundays watching the NFL and rooting on their team, and the last thing many of them would want is for their team to be gone. However, this is exactly the case in Saint Louis, where the Rams are threatening to move to Los Angeles unless the city increases public funding to a new stadium. Many other underserved markets, such as Buffalo, Jacksonville, and Oakland, have threatened to move to other cities, placing the ball in the taxpayer’s court. The last thing many Saint Louis Rams fans want is to lose their team, so if that means increased public funding for a new stadium, that is one unfortunate sacrifice that one would make.



The franchise system is a major player for the usage of public funding in the US. Instead of clubs with local roots and history, franchises move around to more desirable locations relatively consistantly. Some examples include the Seattle Supersonics (NBA) moving to Oklahoma City, the original MLS San Jose Earthquakes moving to Houston, the Atlanta Thrashers moving to Winnipeg, and the old LA Rams of the NFL moving to Saint Louis. As seen, this is frequently the case in the North American sports landscape; however, it is not so much the case in Europe. One notable example is when Wimbledon FC moved roughly sixty miles to Milton Keynes in 2003. However, that was a lengthy process and it is believed that the FA would not allow another team to move a significant distance from its current home. For example, when Arsenal left Highbury, their new stadium, Ashburton Grove, was adjacent to its old. Similarly, Tottenham are currently constructing a larger stadium to replace White Hart Lane, and again, it is on an adjacent land parcel. Another similarity that both of these stadiums have is that no public money was used in building them, and that these stadiums were valued at 400 million pounds. Why is public financing so common in the US for stadiums, but not in England? There are no doubt different political climates; however, another reason also rises especially after the MK Dons fiasco. It does not seem feasible that teams will be able to significantly relocate, which means that they cannot credibly threaten to relocate, meaning that the cities do not have any real incentive to fund a new stadium. In the US, a franchise can move after a certain number of league owners approve it, however, the FA does not appear as if they will let any clubs relocate, which ends up saving the tax payers a significant amount of money.

I stand by my position of if the Flames threaten to leave, why the hell should we care? Let them leave, they clearly have no loyalty to us. This piece also calls BS on the claims of economic revitalization, and I'm inclined to believe that rather than Ken King and his mouth breathing supporters.

MalcolmTucker
May 11, 2017, 12:07 AM
Heard it at a campus plan consultation.

Doug
May 11, 2017, 2:18 AM
Yes, the Harvard-educated, former McKinsey consultant, Mayor of a city with 1.3M people, tasked with overseeing an operating budget of $2B is a financial neophyte.



After 7 years the Mayor finally realized that debt incurs interest:

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/calgary-herald/20170413/281479276281402

rotten42
May 11, 2017, 1:54 PM
One thing I'm particularly proud of about Nenshi is that he doesn't back down from bullies, and that he doesn't hide behind henchmen and aliases.

Hard to back down from bullies when Nenshi is the bully in the room.

jeffwhit
May 11, 2017, 3:43 PM
Now you see the value of Firepark!

For a strictly CFL stadium, it's fine. For something to host the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies the surrounding area would need to be significantly upgraded. For an NHL hockey arena the location is dreadful.

artvandelay
May 11, 2017, 4:12 PM
After 7 years the Mayor finally realized that debt incurs interest:

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/calgary-herald/20170413/281479276281402

Apparently, math is hard. :haha:

Calgarian
May 11, 2017, 4:13 PM
For a strictly CFL stadium, it's fine. For something to host the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies the surrounding area would need to be significantly upgraded. For an NHL hockey arena the location is dreadful.

Would at least provide a good view for the TV cameras... lol

MalcolmTucker
May 11, 2017, 4:28 PM
So I was thinking about the whole funding thing and I remembered that I have never heard much of European/British football (soccer) teams getting much in the way of public funding, for their much larger stadiums. This makes me call BS even more on the claim it's impossible for these things to be privately financed.

I did a bit of googling to back up my claims and I'm right, came across some articles like this one:

Public Money for Private Stadiums? (https://sites.duke.edu/wcwp/2015/03/28/public-money-for-private-stadiums/)



I stand by my position of if the Flames threaten to leave, why the hell should we care? Let them leave, they clearly have no loyalty to us. This piece also calls BS on the claims of economic revitalization, and I'm inclined to believe that rather than Ken King and his mouth breathing supporters.
More basic stadiums in smaller markets, and in all but the largest markets (and even sometimes in them), roundabout state financing! Reminder: Calgary is a relative small city.