View Full Version : New Downtown Calgary Arena
MalcolmTucker
Jun 19, 2017, 3:06 PM
The problem is, if you want to cross the tracks I think you need a +45.
The intercity bus station wants to move more central ... empty hard to activate internal ground floor space would be good for that ... or an inner city Costco!
suburbia
Jun 19, 2017, 10:26 PM
Well there's still room nearby for new hotel builds, maybe the Marriot west of guardian will come back to life? I'm just thinking that any really large conference is going exhaust the nearby hotels, and that the fairmont/mariot/hyatt cluster with the telus conference center would make a decent satellite facility.
linking it with +15 lets the marketing folks boost the venue's indoor square footage number, and after sitting through sessions for a couple of hours, that 10 minute walk between sites might just be what some people are looking for.
The current convention centre could then be used for an expanded Glenbow, which is overly constrained currently. As a museum, it could still leverage some of the spaces for receptions / events.
craner
Sep 13, 2017, 4:32 AM
https://twitter.com/EricFrancis/status/907737049452572672
Full story:
Ken King says Flames will not pursue new arena in Calgary
Mayor Naheed Nenshi expected to react at city hall later on Tuesday evening
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/new-arena-negotiations-end-ken-king-nenshi-1.4286660
Reposted from the Edmonton thread - thanks Hallsy's Toupee.
Corndogger
Sep 13, 2017, 5:09 AM
Reposted from the Edmonton thread - thanks Hallsy's Toupee.
There was also this today which very well could be related.
"Will Mayor Ed Murray’s resignation affect the Seattle arena process?"
http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/will-mayor-ed-murrays-resignation-affect-the-seattle-arena-process/
And from this morning: "Oak View Group plans to renovate KeyArena by October 2020, spend $40 million on transportation"
http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/oak-view-group-plans-to-renovate-keyarena-by-october-2020-spend-40-million-on-transportation-fund/
It sounds like the Flames have decided it's not worth dealing with Nenshi and the administration anymore because they're getting jerked around. This is going to end being a major election issue. If nothing changes after the election I can see the Flames leaving within three or four years. Sooner if the administration's attitude doesn't drastically improve. Quebec City would welcome them with open arms and the Quebec government would probably provide a ton of incentives. If it happens the NHL will never come back to Calgary.
The biggest loser is going to be the Stampeders. Worst stadium by far despite all the team has done for this city. If Halifax or another city in the Maritimes ever builds a decent stadium I could see the Stamps leaving Calgary.
You Need A Thneed
Sep 13, 2017, 6:15 AM
There was also this today which very well could be related.
"Will Mayor Ed Murray’s resignation affect the Seattle arena process?"
http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/will-mayor-ed-murrays-resignation-affect-the-seattle-arena-process/
And from this morning: "Oak View Group plans to renovate KeyArena by October 2020, spend $40 million on transportation"
http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/oak-view-group-plans-to-renovate-keyarena-by-october-2020-spend-40-million-on-transportation-fund/
It sounds like the Flames have decided it's not worth dealing with Nenshi and the administration anymore because they're getting jerked around. This is going to end being a major election issue. If nothing changes after the election I can see the Flames leaving within three or four years. Sooner if the administration's attitude doesn't drastically improve. Quebec City would welcome them with open arms and the Quebec government would probably provide a ton of incentives. If it happens the NHL will never come back to Calgary.
The biggest loser is going to be the Stampeders. Worst stadium by far despite all the team has done for this city. If Halifax or another city in the Maritimes ever builds a decent stadium I could see the Stamps leaving Calgary.
A couple questions for you:
1. How exactly has the city been jerking around the Flames? If anything, the City has gone above and beyond what would be reasonably expected.
2. How would the NHL owners possibly let the Flames move? Literally anywhere the Flames move takes revenue away from the league as a whole.
3. List ways the city's attitude has been poor. The mayor literally was excited to announce a plan for an area that included a new arena - just yesterday! Administration has been working on things to get the arena started, such as a land swap with the Stampede.
Corndogger
Sep 13, 2017, 6:35 AM
A couple questions for you:
1. How exactly has the city been jerking around the Flames? If anything, the City has gone above and beyond what would be reasonably expected.
2. How would the NHL owners possibly let the Flames move? Literally anywhere the Flames move takes revenue away from the league as a whole.
3. List ways the city's attitude has been poor. The mayor literally was excited to announce a plan for an area that included a new arena - just yesterday! Administration has been working on things to get the arena started, such as a land swap with the Stampede.
Look into the details of what the city and Nenshi have been saying. Their commitment to a new arena has been anything but solid. He said yesterday that a new arena would be nice for his new cultural district vision but not necessary. One day he says a new arena etc. will lead to revitalization and development and the next that a new arena won't claiming that the Saddledome has resulted in no surrounding development. Considering where it's located that's to be expected. But look at Edmonton's new arena--tons of development going on. Don't respond with they had very little and Calgary doesn't need development downtown. The point is that the arena in Edmonton is what is spurring the billions of dollars in new development.
If the Flames move how does that take revenue away from the league? Would the revenue not be replaced? I would think that the revenue to the league would go up or else why would the Flames move?
I'm not a Flames fan but I've seen no evidence that the city has been trying to help them. At some point we'll find out the truth and I won't be one bit surprised if we find out that the city has been jerking the Flames around for years.
YYCguys
Sep 13, 2017, 10:16 AM
Isn't it odd that just on Monday Nenshi presented his vision for the cultural and entertainment hub and then, one day later, King was adamant that a deal couldn't be made? What happened in that 24 hours? Did the City think that negotiations were still going to continue and King's announcement was just a reaction to that? I just don't understand where the disconnect occurred!
rotten42
Sep 13, 2017, 1:31 PM
Isn't it odd that just on Monday Nenshi presented his vision for the cultural and entertainment hub and then, one day later, King was adamant that a deal couldn't be made? What happened in that 24 hours? Did the City think that negotiations were still going to continue and King's announcement was just a reaction to that? I just don't understand where the disconnect occurred!
Nenshi's vision? That a laugh. That entertainment hub idea has been around since Bronconnier.
outoftheice
Sep 13, 2017, 1:54 PM
Some insight into the deal that the Flames walked away from when it comes to the arena. I would be curious to learn about the exact terms for the repayment schedule that was proposed but if it was over the life of the new arena I don't think it's that bad of a deal... especially if the city was willing to throw in the land that the new arena would sit on.
Flames no longer interested in pursuing new Calgary arena
By: Allan Maki and Carrie Tait
...Ken King, president of the Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corp., which owns the Flames, Stampeders and other sports properties, said ongoing discussions with the city and Mayor Naheed Nenshi regarding a new arena have gotten them nowhere and that the city is not interested in helping build a facility to replace the Scotiabank Saddledome...
...Calgary offered to pay for one-third of the arena, in equal instalments over a number of years, according to a source. The money would have to be paid back. The ownership group, according to this proposal, would cover another third of the total cost and surcharge on tickets would pay for the remaining third, the source said.
The Flames organization rejected the offer, the source said...
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/flames-no-longer-interested-in-pursuing-new-calgary-arena/article36241562/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&cmpid=rss1&click=sf_globe
O-tacular
Sep 13, 2017, 3:08 PM
Ken King and Gary Bettman can shove it up their ass! I wasn't going to vote but now I'm sure as hell gonna vote for Nenshi. Ken King has become Murray Edwards' and the other Trumpian owners' Sean Spicer. Making ridiculous statements at their behest even in light of the overwhelming fact that regular Calgarians limping out of the worst recession in 30 years have no desire to fund their pet project.
rotten42
Sep 13, 2017, 3:23 PM
Ken King and Gary Bettman can shove it up their ass! I wasn't going to vote but now I'm sure as hell gonna vote for Nenshi. Ken King has become Murray Edwards' and the other Trumpian owners' Sean Spicer. Making ridiculous statements at their behest even in light of the overwhelming fact that regular Calgarians limping out of the worst recession in 30 years have no desire to fund their pet project.
...and Nenshi can shove it up his ass. From day one he has had a horrible record in dealing with business in Calgary. Always an adversary approach. Always arrogant. I have no problem with his stance on how public funds should be for public good but he simply has no clue how to work with business leaders in this city....and that is why nothing ever gets done.
YYCguys
Sep 13, 2017, 3:25 PM
Nenshi's vision? That a laugh. That entertainment hub idea has been around since Bronconnier.
Oh I was unaware of that. I wasn't around when he was in charge.
O-tacular
Sep 13, 2017, 3:28 PM
There was also this today which very well could be related.
"Will Mayor Ed Murray’s resignation affect the Seattle arena process?"
http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/will-mayor-ed-murrays-resignation-affect-the-seattle-arena-process/
And from this morning: "Oak View Group plans to renovate KeyArena by October 2020, spend $40 million on transportation"
http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/oak-view-group-plans-to-renovate-keyarena-by-october-2020-spend-40-million-on-transportation-fund/
It sounds like the Flames have decided it's not worth dealing with Nenshi and the administration anymore because they're getting jerked around. This is going to end being a major election issue. If nothing changes after the election I can see the Flames leaving within three or four years. Sooner if the administration's attitude doesn't drastically improve. Quebec City would welcome them with open arms and the Quebec government would probably provide a ton of incentives. If it happens the NHL will never come back to Calgary.
The biggest loser is going to be the Stampeders. Worst stadium by far despite all the team has done for this city. If Halifax or another city in the Maritimes ever builds a decent stadium I could see the Stamps leaving Calgary.
This was Quebec city's mayor's reaction when Brian Burke floated the idea of moving there:
In June, Brian Burke, Calgary Flames president of operations, suggested the team could move to another city if a new arena wasn't built, and floated Quebec City as an option. Quebec City Mayor Regis Labeaume said he thought the Flames weren't being serious.
"It's a negotiating strategy. We're used to it. Everyone is calm, the Flames will not come to Quebec," said Labeaume.
http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/09/12/flames-president-ken-king-drops-bombshell-were-no-longer-pursuing-an-arena-in-calgary
The Flames are blowing smoke and throwing a tantrum. No different than Donald Trump on NAFTA.
Calgarian
Sep 13, 2017, 3:38 PM
Isn't it odd that just on Monday Nenshi presented his vision for the cultural and entertainment hub and then, one day later, King was adamant that a deal couldn't be made? What happened in that 24 hours? Did the City think that negotiations were still going to continue and King's announcement was just a reaction to that? I just don't understand where the disconnect occurred!
The Flames were obviously responding to Nenshi. They are hoping for a Mayor and Council that will give them what they want. The Flames want a new arena that is paid for mostly with public money, and they want the revenue while the city gets to hold onto a depreciating asset. I think the Mayor and Council have done a great job of standing up for the taxpayers in Calgary, and once the election is done and the dust settles, both side will get back to the table and hammer out a deal.
Calgarian
Sep 13, 2017, 3:41 PM
...and Nenshi can shove it up his ass. From day one he has had a horrible record in dealing with business in Calgary. Always an adversary approach. Always arrogant. I have no problem with his stance on how public funds should be for public good but he simply has no clue how to work with business leaders in this city....and that is why nothing ever gets done.
I like Nenshi and will likely vote for him, but I agree with this for the most part. On the other hand, business leaders in this City are so used to getting their way, they don't know how to handle someone as stubborn as them. Just look at how developers were freaking out when he first got elected. Last I checked, they were still in business and making large profits.
The Urbanist
Sep 13, 2017, 3:42 PM
The Flames were obviously responding to Nenshi. They are hoping for a Mayor and Council that will give them what they want. The Flames want a new arena that is paid for mostly with public money, and they want the revenue while the city gets to hold onto a depreciating asset. I think the Mayor and Council have done a great job of standing up for the taxpayers in Calgary, and once the election is done and the dust settles, both side will get back to the table and hammer out a deal.
Nailed it. Thank you
suburbia
Sep 13, 2017, 3:46 PM
Oh I was unaware of that. I wasn't around when he was in charge.
I think Broncoinnier's bigger achievements were around West LRT placement and the business support that resulted.
The proposal to the Flames for an arena in Victoria Park was excellent in my view. It was detailed in the Globe yesterday, much more affordable, and leverages the surrounding assets instead of recreating things that already exist:
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/flames-no-longer-interested-in-pursuing-new-calgary-arena/article36241562/
The value proposition for Victoria Park was what Nenshi's platform is strongly supporting, a broader integrated cultural and entertainment district. It builds on assets that do not exist in West Village, and the plans for the BMO Centre including conversion to a full-on convention centre is part of that. The restaurants and services that would result from adding to a critical mass that is emerging in that area would be beyond what West Village could offer. The City has been developing elements of this for a very long time, including location and architecture of the music centre and the underpass there, and the library and the moves to try and find how to connect between Olympic plaza and the Library. The Flames Owners' proposal discounts all of the billions already invested by the city and its partners in that area of the city, and instead flips it over to an area where they have additional land assets that would rocket in value, and a need for a much, much more expensive facility because West Village lacks all the assets already in place on the other side of downtown.
I'm blown away that there exist people who are so supportive of the billionaires that they are forgetting what all exists in East Village, Victoria Park and the Stampede Grounds, including plans for the BMO Centre, the NMC, the hotels already there and more being planned (including with the BMO), the Library, all the rest. Those individuals are not pro business, because that would actually hurt a lot of business. Ken King would have you throw all of East Village, Victoria Park and the Stampede (including the long term vision of that area) under the bus.
The Flames were obviously responding to Nenshi. They are hoping for a Mayor and Council that will give them what they want. The Flames want a new arena that is paid for mostly with public money, and they want the revenue while the city gets to hold onto a depreciating asset. I think the Mayor and Council have done a great job of standing up for the taxpayers in Calgary, and once the election is done and the dust settles, both side will get back to the table and hammer out a deal.
100%
O-tacular
Sep 13, 2017, 4:07 PM
Some insight into the deal that the Flames walked away from when it comes to the arena. I would be curious to learn about the exact terms for the repayment schedule that was proposed but if it was over the life of the new arena I don't think it's that bad of a deal... especially if the city was willing to throw in the land that the new arena would sit on.
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/flames-no-longer-interested-in-pursuing-new-calgary-arena/article36241562/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&cmpid=rss1&click=sf_globe
I also enjoyed this tidbit:
That sent the two sides back to the bargaining table where sources say negotiations slowed to a crawl. That angered the Flames to the point where they let it be known that the current ownership might be keen to sell – not with the intent of relocating the franchise but to add new ownership, new blood.
One source described the mood of the current owners as "frustrated" and open to selling their interest in the team.
Good! Let Murray Edwards sell his share. Then maybe we'll get a less entitled group of oil company executives who feel the city owes them a new arena for their mere existence as a sports franchise here.
O-tacular
Sep 13, 2017, 4:23 PM
...and Nenshi can shove it up his ass. From day one he has had a horrible record in dealing with business in Calgary. Always an adversary approach. Always arrogant. I have no problem with his stance on how public funds should be for public good but he simply has no clue how to work with business leaders in this city....and that is why nothing ever gets done.
Did you read the city's offer? What about it said the city wasn't willing to negotiate? The Flames owners walked away from the city donating land and paying for a third of their arena right after Nenshi publicly announced a new Victoria Park Entertainment District with the new arena anchoring it. What was unfair about that? If anything Murray Edwards and the other owners seem to think the only good deal is for the city to take on the majority of the debt and get bent over the barrel by the Flames. And Ken King and Gary Bettman trying to make this an election issue is so dirty and underhanded.
Also, I like how you ignore good things Nenshi has done like bringing Rocket Space to Calgary and bidding for Amazon's Canadian HQ.
O-tacular
Sep 13, 2017, 4:28 PM
I like Nenshi and will likely vote for him, but I agree with this for the most part. On the other hand, business leaders in this City are so used to getting their way, they don't know how to handle someone as stubborn as them. Just look at how developers were freaking out when he first got elected. Last I checked, they were still in business and making large profits.
Well said.
O-tacular
Sep 13, 2017, 4:30 PM
I think Broncoinnier's bigger achievements were around West LRT placement and the business support that resulted.
The proposal to the Flames for an arena in Victoria Park was excellent in my view. It was detailed in the Globe yesterday, much more affordable, and leverages the surrounding assets instead of recreating things that already exist:
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/flames-no-longer-interested-in-pursuing-new-calgary-arena/article36241562/
The value proposition for Victoria Park was what Nenshi's platform is strongly supporting, a broader integrated cultural and entertainment district. It builds on assets that do not exist in West Village, and the plans for the BMO Centre including conversion to a full-on convention centre is part of that. The restaurants and services that would result from adding to a critical mass that is emerging in that area would be beyond what West Village could offer. The City has been developing elements of this for a very long time, including location and architecture of the music centre and the underpass there, and the library and the moves to try and find how to connect between Olympic plaza and the Library. The Flames Owners' proposal discounts all of the billions already invested by the city and its partners in that area of the city, and instead flips it over to an area where they have additional land assets that would rocket in value, and a need for a much, much more expensive facility because West Village lacks all the assets already in place on the other side of downtown.
I'm blown away that there exist people who are so supportive of the billionaires that they are forgetting what all exists in East Village, Victoria Park and the Stampede Grounds, including plans for the BMO Centre, the NMC, the hotels already there and more being planned (including with the BMO), the Library, all the rest. Those individuals are not pro business, because that would actually hurt a lot of business. Ken King would have you throw all of East Village, Victoria Park and the Stampede (including the long term vision of that area) under the bus.
100%
Excellent post. More of this please and less inner city sniping.
rotten42
Sep 13, 2017, 5:16 PM
Also, I like how you ignore good things Nenshi has done like bringing Rocket Space to Calgary and bidding for Amazon's Canadian HQ.
Let's be clear here. The RFP was sent out to multiple cities. Nenshi didn't bring that in. What a bunch of bullshit.
I hope he isn't going to throw tax breaks and free land to some billionaire owners here. ;)
patm
Sep 13, 2017, 5:18 PM
Flames have a very real chance of moving.
They're a middle of the pack revenue team with a bad arena in a market that has a bleak economic outlook.
Nothing about their situation would be too good to give up if Seattle or some arena gave them a sweet heart deal. Look at Florida, they can't give away tickets for free yet they still turn a profit cause of their arena deal. Moving to a city like Seattle will also likely increase their franchise value as the market is 3-4 times the size of Calgary.
Yes there are teams that are worse off than Calgary that should be moved first but that doesn't matter if the NHL owners want to strong arm the Flames and the Flames ownership is frustrated and not committed to Calgary. Also before you say it, there is no chance another team would come here without an arena.
Personally I'm extremely torn. I'm a huge Flames fan and a season ticket holder. On the one hand I understand the economics of the situation and that subsidizing arenas for pro sports teams has historically been a terrible investment for municipalities and I agree with everyone that says it's BS that Calgary taxpayers should be funding an arena so that a private enterprise can charge us more money to go see the same middling product. I also think it's fucking horseshit that they drop this bomb right before the season starts in an attempt to steer the election at a charity event and I think it's a total bush league move from Gary Bettman, the owners and mainly Ken King who should be boo'd, tarred and feathered any time he is spotted in public for how he has totally shit the bed with this entire process. It's been going on for over a decade and all the city has received from that buffoon is a half baked proposal in powerpoint with renderings from Sim City and a funding plan in which the Flames would only cover a quarter of the cost of a billion dollar sports complex while being gifted one of the best plots of undeveloped land in the city. It's a fucking punch in the gut as a paying fan.
On the other hand I'm of the opinion that the Flames are one of the few things that breathes excitement into this city and probably the only thing that unifies it, if even for brief moments of time. From my own selfish point of view, I want the city to bend to the Flames and get a deal done, that's what would make me happiest, but I know that it's not the smart move economically. I also understand why the owners wouldn't want to make a massive real estate investment with this city having such a grim economic outlook when they're already so invested in the Oil industry in this province.
I just can't imagine how dreary it will be here with no major sports team to support while we watch every major Canadian market enjoy NHL hockey. As a sports fan and someone who is growing out of wanting to get shitfaced at beerhalls every weekend or gushing over fucking avocado toast at whatever local hipster bar in Kensignton is trendy at the moment, this will probably be the death blow for my long term views of this city as a home. It's just not worth it anymore. Yes the mountains are nice but there are a lot of cities with mountains that have more to offer than Calgary. I'm sick of worrying about real estate prices, I'm sick of worrying about whether my job is safe in this economy, I'm sick of hearing about how fucked Alberta is just as I'm growing up and setting roots and as crazy as it sounds to normal people without sports fandom, the Flames are always a good distraction from that. They're one of the few sources of civic pride in a city that is so divided over embarrassing political views and slowly dying industry.
I feel that if the Flames leave and if the economy doesn't rebound, the only thing that really separates Calgary from Saskatoon or Red Deer is the mountains. Count up all of the trendy restaurants and bars that you want but the reality is, Calgary is far from a foodie or bar mecca and you can find the latest food and bar trends in any small city too. We don't get many really large festivals outside of the Stampede and the entertainment options here are almost non existent.
This just blows. Really. It's just such a shitty situation that was thrusted upon Calgarians through no fault of our own. The team isn't struggling. It's well supported and I think most people are happier with them here than without them. It'll be a sad day if they leave.
Calgarian
Sep 13, 2017, 5:19 PM
Let's be clear here. The RFP was sent out to multiple cities. Nenshi didn't bring that in. What a bunch of bullshit.
I hope he isn't going to throw tax breaks and free land to some billionaire owners here. ;)
Lets be clear here. It was Nenshi (and Calgary Economic Development CEO Mary Moran) visiting and meeting personally with Rocket Space that helped them make the decision.
Calgarian
Sep 13, 2017, 5:20 PM
Flames have a very real chance of moving.
They're a middle of the pack revenue team with a bad arena in a market that has a bleak economic outlook.
Nothing about their situation would be too good to give up if Seattle or some arena gave them a sweet heart deal. Look at Florida, they can't give away tickets for free yet they still turn a profit cause of their arena deal. Moving to a city like Seattle will also likely increase their franchise value as the market is 3-4 times the size of Calgary.
Yes there are teams that are worse off than Calgary that should be moved first but that doesn't matter if the NHL owners want to strong arm the Flames and the Flames ownership is frustrated and not committed to Calgary. Also before you say it, there is no chance another team would come here without an arena.
Personally I'm extremely torn. I'm a huge Flames fan and a season ticket holder. On the one hand I understand the economics of the situation and that subsidizing arenas for pro sports teams has historically been a terrible investment for municipalities and I agree with everyone that says it's BS that Calgary taxpayers should be funding an arena so that a private enterprise can charge us more money to go see the same middling product. I also think it's fucking horseshit that they drop this bomb right before the season starts in an attempt to steer the election at a charity event and I think it's a total bush league move from Gary Bettman, the owners and mainly Ken King who should be boo'd, tarred and feathered any time he is spotted in public for how he has totally shit the bed with this entire process. It's been going on for over a decade and all the city has received from that buffoon is a half baked proposal in powerpoint with renderings from Sim City and a funding plan in which the Flames would only cover a quarter of the cost of a billion dollar sports complex while being gifted one of the best plots of undeveloped land in the city. It's a fucking punch in the gut as a paying fan.
On the other hand I'm of the opinion that the Flames are one of the few things that breathes excitement into this city and probably the only thing that unifies it, if even for brief moments of time. From my own selfish point of view, I want the city to bend to the Flames and get a deal done, that's what would make me happiest, but I know that it's not the smart move economically. I also understand why the owners wouldn't want to make a massive real estate investment with this city having such a grim economic outlook when they're already so invested in the Oil industry in the is province.
I just can't imagine how dreary it will be here with no major sports team to support while we watch every major Canadian market enjoy NHL hockey. As a sports fan and someone who is growing out of wanting to get shitfaced at beerhalls every weekend or gushing over fucking avocado toast at whatever local hipster bar in Kensignton is trendy at the moment, this will probably be the death blow for my long term views of this city as a home. It's just not worth it anymore. Yes the mountains are nice but there are a lot of cities with mountains that have more to offer than Calgary. I'm sick of worrying about real estate prices, I'm sick of worrying about whether my job is safe in this economy, I'm sick of hearing about how fucked Alberta is just as I'm growing up and setting roots and as crazy as it sounds to normal people without sports fandom, the Flames are always a good distraction from that. They're one of the few sources of civic pride in a city that is so divided over embarrassing political views and slowly dying industry.
I feel that if the Flames leave and if the economy doesn't rebound, the only thing that really separates Calgary from Saskatoon or Red Deer is the mountains. Count up all of the trendy restaurants and bars that you want but the reality is, Calgary is far from a foodie or bar mecca and you can find the latest food and bar trends in any small city too. We don't get many really large festivals outside of the Stampede and the entertainment options here are almost non existent.
This just blows. Really. It's just such a shitty situation that was thrusted upon Calgarians through no fault of our own. The team isn't struggling. It's well supported and I think most people are happier with them here than without them. It'll be a sad day if they leave.
The relocation fee is $200 million dollars, and they would still need a new arena to play in. The Flames are not going anywhere!
suburbia
Sep 13, 2017, 5:26 PM
Flames have a very real chance of moving.
They're a middle of the pack revenue team with a bad arena in a market that has a bleak economic outlook.
Sorry to be blunt about it, but you have no clue. The league makes billions from Rogers resulting from the Canadian teams and their current locations. They will not move to Seattle, and nor will they move to the village of Quebec City.
Calgary Sports and Entertainment makes massive amounts leveraging agreements connected to the Flames to pull in money from numerous other ventures, including concerts and the like, which all have been a massive money cow for them (concerts currently in the dome make more than the Flames in a first round playoff year). The corp often presents a carved out mediocre sounding fiance sheet, which is actually no where near complete. It is a "liquor in the front, poker in the back" scenario, so to speak. That is why the business entity is called Calgary Sports and Entertainment.
The relocation fee is $200 million dollars, and they would still need a new arena to play in. The Flames are not going anywhere!
And that too.
patm
Sep 13, 2017, 5:34 PM
Sorry to be blunt about it, but you have no clue. The league makes billions from Rogers resulting from the Canadian teams and their current locations. They will not move to Seattle, and nor will they move to the village of Quebec City.
Calgary Sports and Entertainment makes massive amounts leveraging agreements connected to the Flames to pull in money from numerous other ventures, including concerts and the like, which all have been a massive money cow for them (concerts currently in the dome make more than the Flames in a first round playoff year). The corp often presents a carved out mediocre sounding fiance sheet, which is actually no where near complete. It is a "liquor in the front, poker in the back" scenario, so to speak. That is why the business entity is called Calgary Sports and Entertainment
And that too.
You have literally no idea what their books are like, what offers are on the table, what Rogers thinks about it or what the NHL owners want long term for the league.
You're putting your hand over your ears and singing "la la la" because you have an unshakable belief that Calgary could never lose their team but the reality is that there are probably numerous scenarios that the Flames and the NHL are exploring and I'm sure that a lot of them include the team moving from Calgary. My post is addressing my thoughts if one of those scenarios plays out.
Northern
Sep 13, 2017, 6:27 PM
I agree. If the current polls are any indication, he probably won't get voted in again, and negotiations can start over again, but this time on the right foot.
This whole thing of Nenshi supporting the new vision for Victoria Park is only an attempt at picking up some votes.
...and Nenshi can shove it up his ass. From day one he has had a horrible record in dealing with business in Calgary. Always an adversary approach. Always arrogant. I have no problem with his stance on how public funds should be for public good but he simply has no clue how to work with business leaders in this city....and that is why nothing ever gets done.
Northern
Sep 13, 2017, 6:30 PM
:haha: Yeah right. That's the way it might have played out in the press but the reality is Nenshi would have had little or nothing to do with their decision.
Also, I like how you ignore good things Nenshi has done like bringing Rocket Space to Calgary and bidding for Amazon's Canadian HQ.
rotten42
Sep 13, 2017, 6:57 PM
:haha: Yeah right. That's the way it might have played out in the press but the reality is Nenshi would have had little or nothing to do with their decision.
exactly!
patm
Sep 13, 2017, 6:59 PM
Hilarious how stand off-ish everyone is over this especially about the financial details since no one has a clue what the situation actually is... anyways...
http://www.metronews.ca/news/calgary/2017/09/13/calgary-arena-deal-scuttled-over-tax-exemption-revenue-sharing-sources.html
"Where talks broke down, according to sources, was in how the city might recoup its initial investment, either through property taxes or a revenue sharing model. It was hoped the city could get back its initial investment over the next 30 years through a lease or rental arrangement with the Flames.
Information provided to Metro indicated those were the areas the two sides couldn’t agree upon.
CSEC was apparently looking for property tax exemption and wouldn’t flex on models for the city to recoup its investment, including possible revenue sharing options."
Shawn LoganVerified account @ShawnLogan403
Mayor @nenshi expressed puzzlement over Flames ditching arena quest. Says he'll release deets of both sides' proposals in days ahead #yyccc
Shawn LoganVerified account @ShawnLogan403
As far as @nenshi was concerned, he feels negotiations hadn't reached an impasse and were still ongoing.
Shawn LoganVerified account @ShawnLogan403
Arena price tag proposed to be about $550 million. Cost break down loosely split a third apiece for city/owners/ticket surcharge #yyccc
Wow, so basically hard stop for the Flames is the city wanting to eventually earn their investment back? Doesn't sound like they're that far away from a deal though. Makes this even more annoying but at least it sounds like it should get done.
Flames ownership are acting like fucking children through all of this.
McBoo
Sep 13, 2017, 7:22 PM
Flames have a very real chance of moving.
They're a middle of the pack revenue team with a bad arena in a market that has a bleak economic outlook.
Flames aren't going anywhere. The NHL just received $500 million from Las Vegas for an expansion team. You think the other owners will let the Flames move to Seattle for any less in a re-location fee?
And if the Flames do go anywhere (and there's damn few places left that can afford the NHL), say hello to Calgary Coyotes or Calgary Panthers (okay, may have to change the nickname).
Full disclosure, I'm from Edmonton, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Things that made the deal work here, that may not be in play there:
1) The new Ice District used to be acres and acres of dreary, low tax yielding surface parking lots.
2) CRL (Community Revitalization Levy), where the city gets any increased both land and education tax for 30 years.
3) Four and counting new towers going up in addition to the arena already contributing enough tax revenue to pay the city's share and more.
4) Katz eventually ponied up, I think $90 million, in installments yes.
5) Ticket surcharge
6) Option was spend $250 million to put lipstick on the Coliseum pig by actually lowering capacity - no one was buying that.
Katz did play the Seattle card, which got him a public flaying for which he ended up paying for a very humiliating public apology.
Any way it goes, Calgary's a legit NHL market, pro hockey won't be n/a in Calgary for more than a nanosecond.
SteveP
Sep 13, 2017, 7:24 PM
:haha: Yeah right. That's the way it might have played out in the press but the reality is Nenshi would have had little or nothing to do with their decision.
Yeah, you can't help but chuckle every time time Nenshi tries to make himself look like a hero. I like some of the things that's he's done, but he's a media whore, and lives for the photo op. i laugh at these people who think Nenshi has a chance at landing Amazon, first off Nenshi would have had nothing to do with it, though I'm sure the media will make it look like he did. Secondly..it ain't gonna happen.
suburbia
Sep 13, 2017, 7:24 PM
You have literally no idea what their books are like, what offers are on the table, what Rogers thinks about it or what the NHL owners want long term for the league.
I absolutely do.
DoubleK
Sep 13, 2017, 8:04 PM
Calgary Sports and Entertainment makes massive amounts leveraging agreements connected to the Flames to pull in money from numerous other ventures, including concerts and the like, which all have been a massive money cow for them (concerts currently in the dome make more than the Flames in a first round playoff year). The corp often presents a carved out mediocre sounding fiance sheet, which is actually no where near complete. It is a "liquor in the front, poker in the back" scenario, so to speak. That is why the business entity is called Calgary Sports and Entertainment.
If that's true then IMO, CSEC should be paying full freight for the new facility.
If they can get a building with them paying 50%, 25% Public money, 25% ticket surcharge (which essentially is a user fee), more power to them.
suburbia
Sep 13, 2017, 8:15 PM
Mayor Nenshi speaks to journalists about arena / Flames choosing to move away from the table
5nX3yDSo604
SteveP
Sep 13, 2017, 8:19 PM
if that's true then imo, csec should be paying full freight for the new facility.
If they can get a building with them paying 50%, 25% public money, 25% ticket surcharge (which essentially is a user fee), more power to them.
x2
McBoo
Sep 13, 2017, 8:22 PM
The relocation fee is $200 million dollars, and they would still need a new arena to play in. The Flames are not going anywhere!
Agreed not going anywhere, but with the expansion fee bar now set at $1/2 billion, doubt that'll be enough, especially if Seattle is the target, which the NHL sees as the next logical place for an expansion team.
GreenSPACE
Sep 13, 2017, 8:36 PM
This is just the first part of negotiating. It'll be back on the table in some form or another in the near future.
Calgarian
Sep 13, 2017, 9:33 PM
This will get done and likely in the form the city wants. Apparently the sticking point is if the city recovers their investment or not. The word is that the cost will be $550 million split evenly 3 ways between CSEC, The City and a ticket tax, the city just wants some sort of return on their investment and CSEC wants all the revenue which would prevent that. This is totally just a tactic by CSEC (despite their assuraces today that it isn't) to influence the election to try and get people emotional about this and to elect a city council that will be more favourable to CSEC's terms.
Corndogger
Sep 13, 2017, 9:57 PM
This will get done and likely in the form the city wants. Apparently the sticking point is if the city recovers their investment or not. The word is that the cost will be $550 million split evenly 3 ways between CSEC, The City and a ticket tax, the city just wants some sort of return on their investment and CSEC wants all the revenue which would prevent that. This is totally just a tactic by CSEC (despite their assuraces today that it isn't) to influence the election to try and get people emotional about this and to elect a city council that will be more favourable to CSEC's terms.
The Flames have said all along they want all of the revenue from the arena. Would the city not recoup their share from investments made by others to build up the adjacent area?
Of course the Flames are turning this into an election issue but so is Nenshi. I'd say Nenshi started it by unveiling his cultural district vision. One day he says a new arena is a vital component and the next that it's not absolutely necessary.
This is the first time I've seen a dollar figure for the project. Does $550 million include land costs or is it just the cost of the building itself?
Corndogger
Sep 13, 2017, 9:58 PM
I absolutely do.
Being a Nenshi insider you probably do have inside knowledge.
suburbia
Sep 13, 2017, 10:37 PM
Being a Nenshi insider you probably do have inside knowledge.
I have connections everywhere corndogger.
But it isn't just me with networking webs. Lot more going on right now than meets the eye.
Corndogger
Sep 13, 2017, 10:54 PM
I have connections everywhere corndogger.
But it isn't just me with networking webs. Lot more going on right now than meets the eye.
I'm sure there is. Why was Bettman in town yesterday? Did the Flames ask to fly up or was he already here on other business? Even though I think Bettman has been great for the league it's a mistake for the Flames to use him to get a new arena.
Airboy
Sep 13, 2017, 10:55 PM
Thought you all would like a chuckle.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/northlands-arena-closure-reaction-1.4288027
Calgarian
Sep 13, 2017, 11:00 PM
The Flames have said all along they want all of the revenue from the arena. Would the city not recoup their share from investments made by others to build up the adjacent area? No idea, I haven't seen any of the studies. The question I would ask would be, is the city having to sink much money into that part of Victoria Park in order to facilitate the redevelopment? They sunk a bunch into the East Village and I believe there is a CRL in place to recover some of those costs, can something similar work in Vic Park?
Of course the Flames are turning this into an election issue but so is Nenshi. I'd say Nenshi started it by unveiling his cultural district vision. Agreed. He shouldn't be surprised that it came back at him. I still support Nenshi, but things like this are making me take a more serious look at some of his rivals.
This is the first time I've seen a dollar figure for the project. Does $550 million include land costs or is it just the cost of the building itself? The numbers I have seen come from the Herald, they mention nothing about land acquisition.
Socguy
Sep 13, 2017, 11:10 PM
Good to see that most people here are not buying Ken King's garbage. From the details that have leaked so far, it's clear that the city has been serious about working with the Flames to build a new arena however, it's becoming more and more apparent that KK is intent on sticking it to the taxpayer.
I've always been vocal about the financial stupidity of the city paying to replace the 'dome when it's a private business who gets the profit, however, if there is a plan in place to recoup the expense then it may make some sense. From what I've seen so far, it appears that the Flames position is that the city should pay for a new building, maintain the building, collect no property tax and be stuck with it at the end of it's life while the Flames walk away with the operating profit. No wonder Ken K is trying to make this an election issue... maybe get a dummy in there who will bend over for them.
And to the people who are so afraid the Flames will move: Don't worry. They're not going anywhere.
First, they are in the West. The league is unbalanced already by too few teams in the West. If a team must move, it will be East to West.
Second: Calgary is a profitable NHL market on a continent where there are already more NHL teams than profitable NHL markets. The league doesn't like to release too many numbers but depending on who you believe anywhere from 5-11 NHL teams are operating at a loss. Why would the league allow Calgary to move before moving one of the many money losing teams? Spite would be the only possible answer...
Third: In the incredibly unlikely event that the Flames did decided to move, The only plausible destination would be Seattle. But once in Seattle they suddenly find themselves playing 3rd fiddle to both a NFL team and a expansion NBA team. Hmmm.... doesn't actually seem like such a sweet landing spot especially after paying an exorbitant relocation fee...
The Chemist
Sep 13, 2017, 11:17 PM
Hilarious that people are talking about Seattle given that Seattle's new arena is going to be 100% privately funded. Just because Edmonton's owner was able to extract hundreds of millions of dollars out of the City of Edmonton doesn't mean that Calgary's ownership group should expect to be able to do the same.
Corndogger
Sep 13, 2017, 11:25 PM
Hilarious that people are talking about Seattle given that Seattle's new arena is going to be 100% privately funded. Just because Edmonton's owner was able to extract hundreds of millions of dollars out of the City of Edmonton doesn't mean that Calgary's ownership group should expect to be able to do the same.
We know that private money is financing 100% of Key Arena's redevelopment if approved. Apparently the group behind it is also offering $40 million for transportation improvements. Seattle is being mentioned because they want to attract an NHL team and a new NBA team to the arena so of course the Flames are going to come up.
The fact that Katz got a good deal is exactly why the Flames want one. The city and the Flames should go to the province and ask for the same amount of funding plus inflation that the Oilers group got. Knock that off the city's share, let the Flames keep the arena profits and call it a deal.
O-tacular
Sep 13, 2017, 11:40 PM
This article from The Hockey News is right on the nose!
http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/c-mon-calgary-flames-billionaire-owner-can-build-his-own-arena
DoubleK
Sep 13, 2017, 11:44 PM
.
Third: In the incredibly unlikely event that the Flames did decided to move, The only plausible destination would be Seattle. But once in Seattle they suddenly find themselves playing 3rd fiddle to both a NFL team and a expansion NBA team. Hmmm.... doesn't actually seem like such a sweet landing spot especially after paying an exorbitant relocation fee...
More like 5th fiddle. The Sounders and the Mariners would be miles in front of an NHL franchise.
I bet NHL wouldn't average 10k in Seattle without severe ticket discounts.
JHikka
Sep 13, 2017, 11:54 PM
Third: In the incredibly unlikely event that the Flames did decided to move, The only plausible destination would be Seattle.
It's been plainly obvious for years (since the Thrashers relocated to Winnipeg and especially since Vegas received their team) that Seattle was going to be the next expansion location - barring an arena. If any teams are going to relocate, which would be surprising, they would be relocating to Quebec City.
The longer that QC is willing to pony up $500MUSD at the drop of a hat for an expansion team the longer they'll be used by the NHL as bait for Cities/Teams to develop new arenas in their own locations. In this week's instance, it's no coincidence that we got Seattle arena and Calgary arena news on the same day. Painfully obvious what the plan is from Calgary's ownership on this one.
I bet NHL wouldn't average 10k in Seattle without severe ticket discounts.
The Thunderbirds, Silvertips, and Chiefs each average between 4.5K & 6K for junior hockey in Washington. I think you're underestimating the power of the sports market, and general interest in hockey, in Seattle and the greater Washington State area.
suburbia
Sep 14, 2017, 12:18 AM
I'm sure there is. Why was Bettman in town yesterday? Did the Flames ask to fly up or was he already here on other business? Even though I think Bettman has been great for the league it's a mistake for the Flames to use him to get a new arena.
He was in town at the invitation of the flames, who arranged a meeting for this particular time. He's been coming up to Calgary regularly to see how he can squeeze more money from the City and the citizens of Calgary for some time now. Remember that event with B'nai B'rith where Ken King was recognizing him? Numerous pictures of King, owners, Murray, Bettman, all around Prentice. King even said it was so successful as they would have announced a public purse subsidy the day after the election, but they bet wrong and our hard earned dollars were saved.
suburbia
Sep 14, 2017, 12:45 AM
Nice story from the hockey news focusing on facts:
http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/c-mon-calgary-flames-billionaire-owner-can-build-his-own-arena
SteveP
Sep 14, 2017, 1:26 AM
Nice story from the hockey news focusing on facts:
http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/c-mon-calgary-flames-billionaire-owner-can-build-his-own-arena
Um, no it doesn't focus on the facts, the story focuses on the writers own opinion. He makes some good points but don't kid yourself, it's not about facts. For example
And don’t get me wrong – new arenas are awesome – but only a slice of a city’s population actually uses them and those folks still have to pay to get in (and most likely pay stunning amounts for parking).
The same can be said about science centres, art galleries and music centres, expect that those venues are frequented by even less people.
suburbia
Sep 14, 2017, 3:51 AM
Um, no it doesn't focus on the facts, the story focuses on the writers own opinion. He makes some good points but don't kid yourself, it's not about facts. For example
The same can be said about science centres, art galleries and music centres, expect that those venues are frequented by even less people.
And apparently only a portion of people get a university education also.
http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/c-mon-calgary-flames-billionaire-owner-can-build-his-own-arena
But Edwards and company need to pay for it themselves. Are the Flames going to leave Calgary over this arena flap? Ha ha ha…no. If there’s anything rich people hate more than spending their own money, it’s being a social pariah: what’s the point of hosting a gala if everyone boos you?
The Flames are bluffing and if the good people of Calgary are smart, they’ll call that bluff.
suburbia
Sep 14, 2017, 3:54 AM
Excellent "to the point" article in MacLean's Magazine.
In arena talks, Calgary Flames owners spectacularly misread the shot
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/in-arena-talks-calgary-flames-owners-spectacularly-misread-the-shot/
A large portion of the Calgary populace will view ceding the arena-building race to Edmonton not as a loss, but as a win: that Cowtown didn’t acquiesce to its hockey barons’ demands. Until the Flames owners can appreciate that, they’ll be stuck in their current saddle.
suburbia
Sep 14, 2017, 4:39 AM
Looks like the Flames have garnered a lot of national attention, but I don't know if this is what they were hoping for.
https://twitter.com/carrietait/status/908182220942143488
SteveP
Sep 14, 2017, 4:44 AM
So what's the deal Suburbia, you're going to fill the thread with quotes from people on the internet that agree with your point of view? Do you really care about this, or is it because they are attacking Nenshi?
blacktrojan3921
Sep 14, 2017, 6:37 AM
Of course the Flames are turning this into an election issue but so is Nenshi. I'd say Nenshi started it by unveiling his cultural district vision. One day he says a new arena is a vital component and the next that it's not absolutely necessary.
Seriously? XD
In any case. It is truly pathetic if the Flames are relocated because of an older stadium. The Coyotes have been struggling financially for years and they are still in Glendale. The Panthers have had attendance problems as well and they remain in Florida. Mr. Bettman is setting a double standard when it comes to Canadian teams.
rotten42
Sep 14, 2017, 2:48 PM
I was just thinking that this new arena development was a good thing in that it brought some life into this section of the forum.....but then suburbia showed up....where's the Advil?
SteveP
Sep 14, 2017, 3:04 PM
I was just thinking that this new arena development was a good thing in that it brought some life into this section of the forum.....but then suburbia showed up....where's the Advil?
Not just him, it's any of the morons who keep arguing that no taxpayer money should be spent on an arena, but are happy to throw money at Music centres, or libraries, etc..
Those people use the argument that this is different because this is privately owned, and yes technically it, but in the grand scheme of things it's really no different. Because the city doesn't own it, they aren't on the hook for maintenance, or it being a depreciating asset. And by the way just because the music centre and library aren't privately owned, doesn't mean the taxpayers have any more ownership of it then they do the arena.
Socguy
Sep 14, 2017, 3:08 PM
More like 5th fiddle. The Sounders and the Mariners would be miles in front of an NHL franchise.
I bet NHL wouldn't average 10k in Seattle without severe ticket discounts.
I stand corrected!
905er
Sep 14, 2017, 3:16 PM
Gary Betman is trying to destroy hockey in Canada as we know. He always has been. Man needs to be stopped before the only NHL teams based in Canada are Toronto and Montreal. If he had it his way it would be an all American league. Hate the fucker.
Northern
Sep 14, 2017, 3:22 PM
Gary Betman is trying to destroy hockey in Canada as we know. He always has been. Man needs to be stopped before the only NHL teams based in Canada are Toronto and Montreal. If he had it his way it would be an all American league. Hate the fucker.
Hey bud, the sign up desk for ISIS is that way->
It's all politics and posturing, no need to go postal. Have a drink and chill.
rotten42
Sep 14, 2017, 3:33 PM
Hey bud, the sign up desk for ISIS is that way->
It's all politics and posturing, no need to go postal. Have a drink and chill.
hahaha no shit.....and the Twin Towers was all a conspiracy set off by the US government.
Fishthebow
Sep 14, 2017, 4:25 PM
You can't compare a sports arena to a library or art gallery. One venue is for people to go drink beer and yell at the top of their lungs when a small rubber disk whizzes past a guy in oversized Halloween costume. The other two venues are for learning. :koko:
Not just him, it's any of the morons who keep arguing that no taxpayer money should be spent on an arena, but are happy to throw money at Music centres, or libraries, etc..
Those people use the argument that this is different because this is privately owned, and yes technically it, but in the grand scheme of things it's really no different. Because the city doesn't own it, they aren't on the hook for maintenance, or it being a depreciating asset. And by the way just because the music centre and library aren't privately owned, doesn't mean the taxpayers have any more ownership of it then they do the arena.
suburbia
Sep 14, 2017, 4:30 PM
You can't compare a sports arena to a library or art gallery. One venue is for people to go drink beer and yell at the top of their lungs when a small rubber disk whizzes past a guy in oversized Halloween costume. The other two venues are for learning. :koko:
Well said!
Innersoul1
Sep 14, 2017, 4:32 PM
Sometimes it's just too easy to call a bluff. The biggest shame in all of this is the tactics that the organization has resorted to. I think that if you are a fan or tax paying citizen you can plainly see that this is posturing and trying to pin the organization against the city merely stokes the fire and provides some interesting click-bait.
Nenshi represents the tax payers and is bolstering his platform. Let's be clear, he has taken a hard line on this one and at times his hardball is a bit irritating. He has shown that he won't be bullied. But he also comes across as unwilling to waver in his stance even when the city is working with the team.
Ken King is making a name for himself as being plain old irritating as hell. The team has played a bluff here and pulled out all of the stops. Get Bettmen in town (when is this a strategy? Just hearing this guy's voice pisses me off) to represent the owners and paint the situation as dire. Use Eric Francis as the puppet that he is. I am not sure if any of you heard him on the Fan960 yesterday but talk about a guy who is out there to represent the Flames and their cause. It's not unbiased media, he was wholeheartedly trying to make arguments against the city, against Nenshi with next to no balance.
Does this city need a new arena? Sure. But as some of you have pointed out comparing Calgary's need to Edmonton's is apples to oranges. As the "negotiations" continue, because this move by the Flames is clearly a negotiation tactic, the Flames have now moved into the position where we have the oldest and most horrible arena in the league. Be that as it may, this is a hockey city. This ownership group would be shooting themselves in the foot along with all of their philathropic causes in this city if they took the position where they would move the team. Besides, the success and support of this team, in this city would be reason enough for any ownership group with money to bring a team right back here.
But that won't happen and we won't get there. This is just a bluff and hopefully we have all seen right through it.
suburbia
Sep 14, 2017, 4:34 PM
So what's the deal Suburbia, you're going to fill the thread with quotes from people on the internet that agree with your point of view? Do you really care about this, or is it because they are attacking Nenshi?
Steve - I think when credible national media organizations make statements, that needs to be acknowledged and has much more weight than say folks who are fully biased as they stand to cash in a massive paycheck at the expense of the common person. The facts are important, and the coverage in the Globe and Mail and MacLean's has been fact based.
I think it is a real shame that the Flames pushers are advocating increasing taxes so that the entertainment group can make more money. This is the real dilemma for the cons. Are you really about reducing taxes or simply allowing the rich to make maximum money even at the expense of the average citizen. Basically the request from Ken King is for every Calgary tax payer to write a $500 cheque to Murray Edwards. Maybe Edwards should request a contribution from the public coffers in the UK?
esquire
Sep 14, 2017, 4:39 PM
Not just him, it's any of the morons who keep arguing that no taxpayer money should be spent on an arena, but are happy to throw money at Music centres, or libraries, etc..
This is so absurd I don't even know where to begin. What public good comes out of pouring hundreds of millions of dollars so that a bunch of upper middle class men can spend $150 a pop to sit there drinking beer and watching hockey?
If the Flames want to be compared to music centres and libraries, first let them start charging what those places charge their patrons. It is an insult to citizens to have them all chip in money for a highly profitable entertainment facility that only a small portion of the population can afford to use.
Those people use the argument that this is different because this is privately owned, and yes technically it, but in the grand scheme of things it's really no different. Because the city doesn't own it, they aren't on the hook for maintenance, or it being a depreciating asset. And by the way just because the music centre and library aren't privately owned, doesn't mean the taxpayers have any more ownership of it then they do the arena.
At the end of the day these subsidized arena deals are always about having government take on the cost, and the private entities take on the profit. Otherwise they wouldn't exist.
DizzyEdge
Sep 14, 2017, 5:53 PM
Not just him, it's any of the morons who keep arguing that no taxpayer money should be spent on an arena, but are happy to throw money at Music centres, or libraries, etc..
Those people use the argument that this is different because this is privately owned, and yes technically it, but in the grand scheme of things it's really no different. Because the city doesn't own it, they aren't on the hook for maintenance, or it being a depreciating asset. And by the way just because the music centre and library aren't privately owned, doesn't mean the taxpayers have any more ownership of it then they do the arena.
Um, the difference is with a music centre or library they are or essentially are non-profit, the money spent is just enough to provide the service. With the area the taxpayer money spent is to make private individuals millions.
Socguy
Sep 14, 2017, 6:55 PM
I'm going to vote for Nenshi again just so I can watch Ken K tuck tail between his legs and slink back to the table to try to salvage something from this debacle.
O-tacular
Sep 14, 2017, 6:56 PM
I'm going to vote for Nenshi again just so I can watch Ken K tuck tail between his legs and slink back to the table to try to salvage something from this debacle.
Here here!
patm
Sep 14, 2017, 7:55 PM
More like 5th fiddle. The Sounders and the Mariners would be miles in front of an NHL franchise.
I bet NHL wouldn't average 10k in Seattle without severe ticket discounts.
Seattle would probably support them well. They support all of their teams well.
Corndogger
Sep 14, 2017, 8:20 PM
Seattle would probably support them well. They support all of their teams well.
That's what I think. Isn't the main reason the Super Sonics left is because Key Arena sucks compared to most (all?) other NBA arenas? The Flames need to sell a new arena based on being competitive with other teams and on all of the non-sports events were missing out on. It's not the number of seats that matters it's the revenue per seat. Does anyone know the number for the Saddledome for all events and for just the Flames?
rotten42
Sep 14, 2017, 8:24 PM
I'm going to vote for Nenshi again just so I can watch Ken K tuck tail between his legs and slink back to the table to try to salvage something from this debacle.
Yes...and ignore all the other civic issues when considering your vote. :babyeat:
Corndogger
Sep 14, 2017, 8:32 PM
Yes...and ignore all the other civic issues when considering your vote. :babyeat:
I'm starting to wonder if this wasn't a very calculated move on the part of Nenshi's campaign team. They know that this is a trigger issue for their base and probably a fair chunk of the people who supported him in 2013. They also probably know that there is a real possibility a lot of people who voted for him last election will stay at home this time or possibly vote for someone else. People need to keep the order of events straight--Nenshi made the first move not the Flames.
Northern
Sep 14, 2017, 8:34 PM
You can't compare a sports arena to a library or art gallery. One venue is for people to go drink beer and yell at the top of their lungs when a small rubber disk whizzes past a guy in oversized Halloween costume. The other two venues are for learning. :koko:
Well said!
What a stupid ass post. It's idiots like you two who helped get Trump elected.
Chinook Arch
Sep 14, 2017, 8:49 PM
While that may be true, I don't have a problem with my taxpayer dollars going to a new arena, and I couldn't care less which one is non-profit or for profit. I Myself will use a new arena more then a music centre or library, and my taxpayer dollars have gone to those venues already.
Um, the difference is with a music centre or library they are or essentially are non-profit, the money spent is just enough to provide the service. With the area the taxpayer money spent is to make private individuals millions.
suburbia
Sep 14, 2017, 10:25 PM
What a stupid ass post. It's idiots like you two who helped get Trump elected.
Congratulations on the stupidest post of the year award. Let's get one thing straight right off the bat, public art is a nice to have, not a need to have. All of you people who insist that there is a need for public art need to step up and pay with your own god damn money. For example maybe try putting your money where your mouth is! :hell:
What is it with you guys?? the guy tries to make a legitimate point and he's labeled as stupid and ignorant. He's pointing out that there are pitfalls with owning a condo (which is true btw) and people take suck attacks.
given you've only posted a couple dozen times, you sure are setting a trend.
O-tacular
Sep 15, 2017, 1:10 AM
What a stupid ass post. It's idiots like you two who helped get Trump elected.
What a ridiculous statement. Can you please explain your logic for this?
craner
Sep 15, 2017, 1:45 AM
they are in the West. The league is unbalanced already by too few teams in the West. If a team must move, it will be East to West.
In the incredibly unlikely event that the Flames did decided to move, The only plausible destination would be Seattle. But once in Seattle they suddenly find themselves playing 3rd fiddle to both a NFL team and a expansion NBA team. Hmmm.... doesn't actually seem like such a sweet landing spot especially after paying an exorbitant relocation fee...
Just to clarify - with Vegas coming into the NHL there is only one more team in the East than there is in the West so if a team moved from East to West then you would have the same unbalenced problem.
To your last point - as others mentioned, an NHL team in Seattle would be behind the Seahawks, Mariners, new NBA team, U of Washington, and the Sounders (IMO). I hope Seattle gets a hockey team - just not the Flames. ;)
Corndogger
Sep 15, 2017, 3:13 AM
Braid: Flames asked city to cover more than half arena cost, King says 'it's very fair'
The Calgary Flames wanted the city to pay 52 per cent of the total cost of a new $500-million to $600-million arena north of the Stampede grounds, say sources connected to city hall.
That’s sharply at variance with the city proposal, to be unveiled Friday, which called for one-third from the city, one-third from Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corp., and one-third from a ticket surcharge.
Mayor Naheed Nenshi has already indicated the Flames wanted a higher than one-third percentage from the city, without giving details.
He called the Flames’ position “eminently unreasonable,” apparently in reference to the 52 per cent.
But Flames CEO Ken King says nobody should be surprised the Flames want both parties to pay roughly equal share. “That’s basically what we proposed with CalgaryNEXT — 50-50. It’s very fair.
“So, it should come as no surprise that any model we could put forward in Victoria Park is similar to the one put forward in CalgaryNEXT.”
CalgaryNEXT was the grand multi-facility proposal for the west end, no longer in negotiation but still technically on the table.
King also says the city’s proposal — one-third each from the Flames, the city and a ticket surcharge — “means that we actually pay three-thirds. Calgary Sports and Entertainment would ultimately pay the whole thing.”
He says the city wants to be repaid its share of the cash and also capture the ticket surcharge revenue.
Full article at: http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/braid-flames-asked-city-to-cover-more-than-half-arena-cost-king-says-its-very-fair
suburbia
Sep 15, 2017, 3:52 AM
Braid: Flames asked city to cover more than half arena cost, King says 'it's very fair'
The Calgary Flames wanted the city to pay 52 per cent of the total cost of a new $500-million to $600-million arena north of the Stampede grounds, say sources connected to city hall.
That’s sharply at variance with the city proposal, to be unveiled Friday, which called for one-third from the city, one-third from Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corp., and one-third from a ticket surcharge.
Mayor Naheed Nenshi has already indicated the Flames wanted a higher than one-third percentage from the city, without giving details.
He called the Flames’ position “eminently unreasonable,” apparently in reference to the 52 per cent.
But Flames CEO Ken King says nobody should be surprised the Flames want both parties to pay roughly equal share. “That’s basically what we proposed with CalgaryNEXT — 50-50. It’s very fair.
“So, it should come as no surprise that any model we could put forward in Victoria Park is similar to the one put forward in CalgaryNEXT.”
CalgaryNEXT was the grand multi-facility proposal for the west end, no longer in negotiation but still technically on the table.
King also says the city’s proposal — one-third each from the Flames, the city and a ticket surcharge — “means that we actually pay three-thirds. Calgary Sports and Entertainment would ultimately pay the whole thing.”
He says the city wants to be repaid its share of the cash and also capture the ticket surcharge revenue.
Full article at: http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/braid-flames-asked-city-to-cover-more-than-half-arena-cost-king-says-its-very-fair
Seems like the land being provided is being valued at zero?
blacktrojan3921
Sep 15, 2017, 3:53 AM
That's what I think. Isn't the main reason the Super Sonics left is because Key Arena sucks compared to most (all?) other NBA arenas? The Flames need to sell a new arena based on being competitive with other teams and on all of the non-sports events were missing out on. It's not the number of seats that matters it's the revenue per seat. Does anyone know the number for the Saddledome for all events and for just the Flames?
They left because the city council did not want to use taxpayer money to help fund for a new arena, ESPECIALLY after just doing that for the Sehawks and mariners stadium.
Northern
Sep 15, 2017, 5:42 AM
You might be in for some disappointment. Nenshi's numbers aren't that great. If he ends up running against one main candidate he might not make it.
I'm going to vote for Nenshi again just so I can watch Ken K tuck tail between his legs and slink back to the table to try to salvage something from this debacle.
suburbia
Sep 15, 2017, 10:54 AM
You might be in for some disappointment. Nenshi's numbers aren't that great. If he ends up running against one main candidate he might not make it.
Curious - who are you supporting Northern? The communists who will provide the entertainment group a multi-hundred-million-dollar handout, or the ultra-Cons who will not support the arena at all, or are we now changing definitions and calling the people who will dole out hard-earner money to Murray Edwards UK billionaire "conservative"?
Northern responds:
Usr8uQqyckE
rotten42
Sep 15, 2017, 1:01 PM
Curious - who are you supporting Northern? The communists who will provide the entertainment group a multi-hundred-million-dollar handout, or the ultra-Cons who will not support the arena at all, or are we now changing definitions and calling the people who will dole out hard-earner money to Murray Edwards UK billionaire "conservative"?
Northern responds:
Usr8uQqyckE
my god you are an idiot!
Habanero
Sep 15, 2017, 2:26 PM
What a ridiculous statement. Can you please explain your logic for this?
It's not really ridiculous. A number of people who have studied the American election have said that a good number of Trump voters were not voting for Trump but rather were voting against the liberal elites, and Fishbow's statement comes across as one of those liberal elites. Not the fact that he supports art, but it's the way he expresses it.
Habanero
Sep 15, 2017, 2:39 PM
Anyhow is far as the arena goes. I have no doubt this is all political posturing. It has happened in multiple cities over the years, including Edmonton not too long ago. I'm not happy with either camp. Half of this is on Nenshi and the way he started these negotiations in the beginning, he's been better lately, but it's only because an election is coming and he wants votes.... which is why he won't be getting my vote.
If someone else becomes mayor, I hope the person takes a similar stance as Nenshi, but with a better attitude.
suburbia
Sep 15, 2017, 4:48 PM
Calgary isn't falling for the old new-arena trick
City seems determined not to repeat others' mistakes
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/calgary-flames-arena-1.4290319
"They all follow the same script. There is an owner playbook for extracting subsidies," says Brad Humphreys, a professor of business and economics at West Virginia University.
"You first declare your arena is unplayable and immediately in need of replacing. If that doesn't get you the tax dollars you want, then you threaten to leave, usually at an opportune time — say, just a few weeks before a mayoral election. And then you have the league commissioner come in and say there are going to be consequences if there's not a new subsidy.
"Usually, at that point, the local decision-maker caves."
Coun. Brian Pincott, who is not running for re-election, says the Flames have been unable to answer two fundamental questions: How would the city's investment be repaid? And what kind of use would the general public get out of the new building?
"How is the public going to access it so that it isn't just limited to people that can fork out 200 bucks a ticket," Pincott asks. "They answered and we didn't like the answer and they don't like that we didn't like the answer."
Pincott says people understand the city's position.
"I think people are comfortable we aren't just opening up the cheque book. Our polling tells us they don't want us to pay for a for-profit hockey team."
Research suggests that's a wise move. Municipal investments in stadium and arena projects typically don't end well, most economists agree. And yet, the North American landscape is littered with cities that are barely able to deliver basic services but, at the same time, have decided to commit hundreds of millions of dollars to building and maintaining facilities for pro sports teams.
I'm glad national media is reaching out to experts and knowledgeable commentators who are not politically involved or have a gazillion bucks to be made on the decisions.
Socguy
Sep 15, 2017, 5:20 PM
Just to clarify - with Vegas coming into the NHL there is only one more team in the East than there is in the West so if a team moved from East to West then you would have the same unbalenced problem.
However, if a team was to move from the West to the East, then the unbalancing problem would be magnified whereas a move from the East to the West would keep things at the the same level of imbalance. This is why league owners will offer much more resistance to any move reducing teams in the West. This means that in the thought experiment of 'where could the Flames conceivably move to' Cities like Quebec are basically a non-starter, new arena or not. They would be much more of a threat to perennial money losing Tampa bay or Florida. Vegas entering the league just removes a potential landing spot from the board. Seattle is really the only city that fits and Bettman likely favors expansion anyway over any possible relocation.
SteveP
Sep 15, 2017, 5:34 PM
Three things wrong with that article, it's the CBC for starters and they're getting info from Brian Pincott and an American university.
It's not even that all the points are wrong, it's that I don't care. I want to see a new arena, and if it comes out of taxpayer money I'm okay with that.
And those cities also fund money into arts, which like sports is not a basic service.
Research suggests that's a wise move. Municipal investments in stadium and arena projects typically don't end well, most economists agree. And yet, the North American landscape is littered with cities that are barely able to deliver basic services but, at the same time, have decided to commit hundreds of millions of dollars to building and maintaining facilities for pro sports teams.
Calgary isn't falling for the old new-arena trick
City seems determined not to repeat others' mistakes
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/calgary-flames-arena-1.4290319
I'm glad national media is reaching out to experts and knowledgeable commentators who are not politically involved or have a gazillion bucks to be made on the decisions.
Northern
Sep 15, 2017, 5:54 PM
What a stupid article.
Hey Pincott, people weren't comfortable open there wallets for the Peace Bridge either.
Pincott says people understand the city's position.
"I think people are comfortable we aren't just opening up the cheque book. Our polling tells us they don't want us to pay for a for-profit hockey team."
This quote shows why the people who wrote the article are idiots. Yes, it's 100% true, North American Cities who can't deliver basic services shouldn't spend money on sports stadiums...so is that us?? The same city who put money into a Peace Bridge, a music centre, and an art sculpture made of rebar? :koko:
Research suggests that's a wise move. Municipal investments in stadium and arena projects typically don't end well, most economists agree. And yet, the North American landscape is littered with cities that are barely able to deliver basic services but, at the same time, have decided to commit hundreds of millions of dollars to building and maintaining facilities for pro sports teams.
Calgary isn't falling for the old new-arena trick
City seems determined not to repeat others' mistakes
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/calgary-flames-arena-1.4290319
I'm glad national media is reaching out to experts and knowledgeable commentators who are not politically involved or have a gazillion bucks to be made on the decisions.
Socguy
Sep 15, 2017, 5:57 PM
Three things wrong with that article, it's the CBC for starters and they're getting info from Brian Pincott and an American university.
It's not even that all the points are wrong, it's that I don't care. I want to see a new arena, and if it comes out of taxpayer money I'm okay with that.
And those cities also fund money into arts, which like sports is not a basic service.
Well, then you should be in favor of an entirely user paid arena. Triple the ticket tax because the people who pay 200+ per ticket are the only people in Calgary who could afford it.
FYI NHL hockey is not a 'basic service', (though we already have it). If you're taking about recreational sports then I would be slightly more inclined to agree with you. Come to think of it, spending the proposed arena money on community sporting/recreational facilities would be a much better use of that money don't you think?
Socguy
Sep 15, 2017, 6:02 PM
What a stupid article.
Hey Pincott, people weren't comfortable open there wallets for the Peace Bridge either.
This quote shows why the people who wrote the article are idiots. Yes, it's 100% true, North American Cities who can't deliver basic services shouldn't spend money on sports stadiums...so is that us?? The same city who put money into a Peace Bridge, a music centre, and an art sculpture made of rebar? :koko:
I wish people would stop trying to conflate radically different projects with each other. Each project must be assessed on its individual merit. You don't spend tax dollars on a tit-for-tat basis where billionaires get to argue for a giant subsidy because a library was built.
esquire
Sep 15, 2017, 6:11 PM
Calgary isn't falling for the old new-arena trick
City seems determined not to repeat others' mistakes
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/calgary-flames-arena-1.4290319
I'm glad national media is reaching out to experts and knowledgeable commentators who are not politically involved or have a gazillion bucks to be made on the decisions.
This article touches on a good point... the inaccessibility of NHL hockey to vast swaths of society.
When I was a kid, the cheap seats for a Winnipeg Jets game were the same price as a movie ticket. These days, tickets here start around $65 a pop. Only the upper middle classes and up can really afford to do that on anything resembling a regular basis. So what business does the city have pumping public dollars into what is essentially an entertainment venue for a certain segment of society?
What would people say if the city sank $100 million to put towards a new private golf and country club where you had to pay either $125 a round or $6,000 for an annual membership to get inside the gates? Because that's not far off what the outlay is for NHL games.
suburbia
Sep 15, 2017, 6:12 PM
Three things wrong with that article, it's the CBC for starters and they're getting info from Brian Pincott and an American university.
And all this for a UK tax payer in Murray Edwards!
suburbia
Sep 15, 2017, 8:27 PM
Great synopsis of the City's proposal:
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Three way split of $555M - $185M each for City, owners and users. It is not a loan as some incorrectly suggested - the full amount contributed for construction/land that does not need repaying. Interestingly, the cost to the owners is LESS than they already had on the table for the West village debacle. Further, the City absorbs a heck of a lot of interest costs including bringing utilities, building an LRT station, extending 17th Avenue, etcetera. That's all on top of the full 1/3rd contribution. The Flames Owners get 100% of all revenues from the new arena, including for all their non-sporting events that actually make them more money than the Flames do. I'm flabbergasted that Ken King walked away from such a deal. They need to have at least that 1/3rd skin in the game. The citizens of the city are not going to go for any subsidy beyond that. It is more than fair as the mayor mentioned in the video.
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