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You Need A Thneed
Apr 20, 2011, 7:10 PM
So lets assume that the preliminary design process has begun and just needs to be approved and finalized. From shovel in the ground to completion how long would the constructions process take? 2 years?

Construction would take 2 years, minimum, likely longer.

Bigtime
Apr 20, 2011, 7:15 PM
They're withholding the plans from us because they know we'll freak out when it is a piece of Stampitecture crap... ;)

kw5150
Apr 20, 2011, 7:18 PM
I heard rumours that the stampede location will not be suitable for a new arena. It will likely be located in............who knows........

You Need A Thneed
Apr 20, 2011, 7:19 PM
Design work is definitely under way to some extent.

I've heard that the Flames aren't looking for funding from outside, for a big part because funding usually comes with shared revenue, and the Flames want 100% of the revenue from the building.

Stang
Apr 20, 2011, 7:35 PM
I have two wishes:

- That the architecture be modern, original, and inspiring. (I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised).

- That it be downtown and adjacent to (or incorporating) a c-train station. I know that it has been hinted that the location would be North of the Saddledome in Vic Park, so technically further from the Stampede Station. I'd prefer something where the Big 4 currently sits.

Ramsayfarian
Apr 20, 2011, 7:37 PM
I have two wishes:

- That the architecture be modern, original, and inspiring. (I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised).

- That it be downtown and adjacent to (or incorporating) a c-train station. I know that it has been hinted that the location would be North of the Saddledome in Vic Park, so technically further from the Stampede Station. I'd prefer something where the Big 4 currently sits.

I think your second wish will come true. I'm not holding my breath for the first one.

You Need A Thneed
Apr 20, 2011, 7:42 PM
I have two wishes:

- That it be downtown and adjacent to (or incorporating) a c-train station. I know that it has been hinted that the location would be North of the Saddledome in Vic Park, so technically further from the Stampede Station. I'd prefer something where the Big 4 currently sits.

It would be pretty close to a future SE LRT station.

Bigtime
Apr 20, 2011, 7:42 PM
I have two wishes:

- That the architecture be modern, original, and inspiring. (I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised).

- That it be downtown and adjacent to (or incorporating) a c-train station. I know that it has been hinted that the location would be North of the Saddledome in Vic Park, so technically further from the Stampede Station. I'd prefer something where the Big 4 currently sits.

Even if it moves north closer to 12th avenue it will eventually be close to a future SELRT station.

Edit: Beaten by seconds!

kw5150
Apr 20, 2011, 7:44 PM
Just put it out by crossiron mills. :jester:

Stang
Apr 20, 2011, 7:49 PM
Just put it out by crossiron mills. :jester:

Despite your laughing jester: not cool. ;) At least the club seems to agree that it should be centrally located as well. And the points made about it being close to a SE LRT station are quite true indeed. The stadium would obviously pre-date the SE LRT, but hopefully not for more than a few years.

Tarsus
Apr 20, 2011, 8:01 PM
Three wishes:

-Central location
-Modern style
-Retractable roof

DizzyEdge
Apr 20, 2011, 8:16 PM
Three wishes:

-Central location
-Modern style
-Retractable roof

-monorail


....

Mazrim
Apr 20, 2011, 8:42 PM
The walk from the LRT to the Saddledome is already pretty long. I assume it wouldn't be much longer if they built the new arena just to the North of the Stampede site.

fusili
Apr 20, 2011, 8:53 PM
-monorail


....

But where would the children play?

freeweed
Apr 20, 2011, 8:58 PM
So lets assume that the preliminary design process has begun and just needs to be approved and finalized. From shovel in the ground to completion how long would the constructions process take? 2 years?

Considering it takes 9+ months to build a concrete apron for a train platform, in this city I'd say at least 12 years.

Innersoul1
Apr 20, 2011, 9:14 PM
I heard rumours that the stampede location will not be suitable for a new arena. It will likely be located in............who knows........

You know, last night watching the LA v.SJ game I was blown away by the size of the Staples centre from above, it covers some serious square footage. I have always thought that the 12th ave site on the Stampede grounds doesn't seem large enough.

Design work is definitely under way to some extent.

I've heard that the Flames aren't looking for funding from outside, for a big part because funding usually comes with shared revenue, and the Flames want 100% of the revenue from the building.

If the Flames want 100% revenue does this have any affect on the relationship between the Flames and the Stampede.

I have two wishes:

- That the architecture be modern, original, and inspiring. (I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised).

- That it be downtown and adjacent to (or incorporating) a c-train station. I know that it has been hinted that the location would be North of the Saddledome in Vic Park, so technically further from the Stampede Station. I'd prefer something where the Big 4 currently sits.

It would be pretty close to a future SE LRT station.

I am sure that if the Flames had their way they too would like a modern looking building. The American Airlines arena is the closest example in the league to Stampitecture and man is it unappealing. I think that the possiblity of an off-stampede ground arena would really allow for something modern and chic.

Calgarian
Apr 20, 2011, 10:36 PM
I think a new 'dome would work out great in the West Village on either the GSL Chev city site or Renfrew Chrysler site. Decent access to the WLRT, prominent riverfront location (postcards galore) and still very central.

kw5150
Apr 20, 2011, 10:47 PM
:previous:

We dont need two dead spaces in the downtown area (stampede)......and I am hoping to one day relocate to the west village in a condo.......(15 year plan)

Calgarian
Apr 21, 2011, 3:59 PM
:previous:

We dont need two dead spaces in the downtown area (stampede)......and I am hoping to one day relocate to the west village in a condo.......(15 year plan)

Actually I would love to see the new arena and a new football stadium right there. Then we could have an arena district built up around the area.

lubicon
May 19, 2011, 6:33 PM
So it appears the City of Edmonton and the Oilers have come to an agreement on building/funding a new arena. Will this help act as a catalyst for a new arena in Calgary?

MichaelS
May 19, 2011, 7:23 PM
I think it will depend where they get the "missing" $100 million from. If the province gives them some money, I would expect to hear pretty loud calls in Calgary asking for the same.

freeweed
May 19, 2011, 7:23 PM
So it appears the City of Edmonton and the Oilers have come to an agreement on building/funding a new arena. Will this help act as a catalyst for a new arena in Calgary?

And the Government of Manitoba is making rumbles about somehow contributing financially to the Winnipeg bid for an NHL team. I think Calgary is sure to see something as a result, at least in terms of building.

As we've discussed ad naseum here, these arenas are used for far more than just NHL hockey. In fact, the NHL is a minor tenant in terms of days used. So the cities/provinces very likely SHOULD step up - to whatever degree we can all agree upon.

Stang
May 19, 2011, 8:06 PM
I think that the province and city will likely provide something, but they will be very careful with the optics. The perception of subsidizing millionaire players and owners won't fly here, but some funding could potentially be directed to a major sporting and cultural facility. Most people see the Flames as the only tenant, which isn't true, but they certainly are a major stakeholder and the catalyst for the new building.

The feds won't want to go anywhere near this one, I don't think, but the city could certainly see some trickle-down benefits through tourism, high profile concerts and events, etc.

Speaking of which, I wonder if it has been considered to incorporate a hotel or other revenue-generating business into the same project? A nice hotel in Victoria Park attached to a new building would help revitalize the area, be a hit among hockey fans, stampede goers, and even just regular tourists. Plus it could make a little bit of money that could help pay down the building's debt and eventually contribute to the profits.

Finally, do the Flames receive any money from parking at the Stampede grounds? Although I think that the grounds would be an ideal location, the lost revenue in that area alone must be quite substantial. I'd hate to see a new arena anywhere but downtown (or very close to downtown).

Innersoul1
May 19, 2011, 8:10 PM
So it appears the City of Edmonton and the Oilers have come to an agreement on building/funding a new arena. Will this help act as a catalyst for a new arena in Calgary?

Not likely. The agreement in Edmonton states that the city will provide something like $425 million to the construction of the arena. They will own the rink and associated lands. The Katz group would cover operational costs along with any imporvements that need to take place.

NO CHANCE that our city council would provide this kind of funding to the Flames. My understanding is that the Flames are hoping to privately fund the arena.

According to a TSN article that came out today the Alberta government has not commited to providing funds to Edmonton. I would assume that if Edmonton recieves provincial dollars then Calgary will too!

kw5150
May 19, 2011, 8:23 PM
Actually I would love to see the new arena and a new football stadium right there. Then we could have an arena district built up around the area.

Whats in an "Arena District?" Homeless people, large parking lots and freeways? No more wasting riverlands on this crap.

DizzyEdge
May 19, 2011, 8:31 PM
Whats in an "Arena District?" Homeless people, large parking lots and freeways? No more wasting riverlands on this crap.

I'd be ok with an 'Arena district', but only if done right, ie all parking in parkades, and either the arenas separated by retail/entertainment commercial, or side by side but with the parkade/arenas themselves having retail all around the at-grade circumference. Think a hockey, football, and maybe some other sort of stadium, each with a 'stampede entertainment district' type retail street between each one, plus hotels, etc.

Innersoul1
May 19, 2011, 8:32 PM
I think that the province and city will likely provide something, but they will be very careful with the optics. The perception of subsidizing millionaire players and owners won't fly here, but some funding could potentially be directed to a major sporting and cultural facility. Most people see the Flames as the only tenant, which isn't true, but they certainly are a major stakeholder and the catalyst for the new building.

The feds won't want to go anywhere near this one, I don't think, but the city could certainly see some trickle-down benefits through tourism, high profile concerts and events, etc.

Speaking of which, I wonder if it has been considered to incorporate a hotel or other revenue-generating business into the same project? A nice hotel in Victoria Park attached to a new building would help revitalize the area, be a hit among hockey fans, stampede goers, and even just regular tourists. Plus it could make a little bit of money that could help pay down the building's debt and eventually contribute to the profits.

Finally, do the Flames receive any money from parking at the Stampede grounds? Although I think that the grounds would be an ideal location, the lost revenue in that area alone must be quite substantial. I'd hate to see a new arena anywhere but downtown (or very close to downtown).

I really like the idea of incorporating a hotel into the facility. Edmonton's proposal includes a hotel and casino. I like the addition of both but it certainly adds to the overall cost of the arena which I don't think the Flames are interested in.

Correct me if I am wrong but the Edmonton proposal is well over 500 million?

Calgarian
May 19, 2011, 8:56 PM
Whats in an "Arena District?" Homeless people, large parking lots and freeways? No more wasting riverlands on this crap.

An arena district in the context I mentioned would have a football stadium and hockey arena side by side with some surface parking (out of site and off the main street) but most parking would be underground. There would be a hotel, possible convention centre and lots of retail and restaurants. This would not just be a game day destination, but a year round destination.

I give it about a 2% chance of ever happening, though it's nice to dream...

kw5150
May 19, 2011, 9:00 PM
An arena district in the context I mentioned would have a football stadium and hockey arena side by side with some surface parking (out of site and off the main street) but most parking would be underground. There would be a hotel, possible convention centre and lots of retail and restaurants. This would not just be a game day destination, but a year round destination.

I give it about a 2% chance of ever happening, though it's nice to dream...

That is my main worry that we have all of these great ideas for Development Permit and then it all gets washed out in the end. There should also be no new surface parking being proposed anywhere near the river. Chances are this arena will be built somewhere in the suburbs from the rumors I have heard. No one wants to built and arena district type development in Calgary, just a lazy bunch of parking lots with a good freeway connection

Stang
May 19, 2011, 9:01 PM
I really like the idea of incorporating a hotel into the facility. Edmonton's proposal includes a hotel and casino. I like the addition of both but it certainly adds to the overall cost of the arena which I don't think the Flames are interested in.

Although it would increase the initial construction costs, I'd think that in the long run it would turn the corner and start making money for the Flames. A casino would likely be out of the question as the Stampede has their own nearby, as would be convention space. But I'd like to see it loaded up with as many extra things as possible. Hotel, restaurants, bars, maybe a smaller concert/theatre venue for shows that attract the 500-2000 range of people, retail shops, etc. I know that the Flames don't want to get into all of these businesses themselves, but being a landlord would provide some revenue to help pay it down.

Maybe they should build an office and condo building over top of it and sell the residential units and lease the office units. ;) I'm mostly joking, but it would certainly be a creative way to diversify their revenue streams.

freeweed
May 19, 2011, 9:02 PM
Whats in an "Arena District?" Homeless people, large parking lots and freeways? No more wasting riverlands on this crap.

Don't forget the zombies. Anyone able to dig up that pic from the WLRT days?

You Need A Thneed
May 19, 2011, 9:07 PM
Chances are this arena will be built somewhere in the suburbs from the rumors I have heard. No one wants to built and arena district type development in Calgary, just a lazy bunch of parking lots with a good freeway connection

The Flames have always said that they want the new arena close to where they are now. I doubt it'll be in the suburbs.

Calgarian
May 19, 2011, 9:07 PM
That is my main worry that we have all of these great ideas for Development Permit and then it all gets washed out in the end. There should also be no new surface parking being proposed anywhere near the river. Chances are this arena will be built somewhere in the suburbs from the rumors I have heard. No one wants to built and arena district type development in Calgary, just a lazy bunch of parking lots with a good freeway connection

The Flames have always stated that they want the arena downtown and close to transit. I really doubt it will move to the 'burbs.

Calgarian
May 19, 2011, 9:08 PM
Wow, nearly identical posts...

Innersoul1
May 19, 2011, 9:23 PM
Whats in an "Arena District?" Homeless people, large parking lots and freeways? No more wasting riverlands on this crap.

This is a link to the "Arena District" in Glendale outside of the Jobbing.com Arena. It's one of the most famous arena districts in the NHL. BUT given that there is NOTHING else in Glendale, it also points to some of the reasons why the Coyotes are failing.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?safe=active&ie=UTF8&q=jobbing.com+arena&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=jobbing.com+arena&cid=0,0,5185020725397653236&ll=33.534196,-112.261439&spn=0,0.019205&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=33.534196,-112.261439&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=fr-2384026199

Calgarian
May 19, 2011, 9:31 PM
That's definitely not the model I'm advocating. a small arena district surrounded by an ocean of parking is just a horrible use of land.

bigcanuck
May 19, 2011, 9:41 PM
How about the Staples Center and Nokia Theatre area of L.A. (called L.A. Live)? Lots of restaurants, a courtyard, 2 world class hotels and not a whack of parking lots surrounding the area. Not immediately on the subway line though.

freeweed
May 19, 2011, 9:47 PM
That's definitely not the model I'm advocating. a small arena district surrounded by an ocean of parking is just a horrible use of land.

The parking is definitely because it's in the middle of nowhere, plus American sports facilities just have SOOO much more on average than we do. I've actually been to baseball games where you can park well over half a kilometer away, on contiguous asphalt.

Kansas City's parking lot is ENORMOUS. (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=kansas+city+royals&aq=&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=52.967233,107.138672&ie=UTF8&hq=kansas+city+royals&hnear=&ll=39.049286,-94.479396&spn=0.015048,0.026157&t=h&z=16) The Saddledome (or McMahon) has practically no parking by comparison.

freeweed
May 19, 2011, 9:49 PM
How about the Staples Center and Nokia Theatre area of L.A. (called L.A. Live)? Lots of restaurants, a courtyard, 2 world class hotels and not a whack of parking lots surrounding the area. Not immediately on the subway line though.

There's plenty of surface parking by the Staples Center, but you're right, it's not the crazy flat blackness of the suburban rinks and stadiums. It helps that it's right next to downtown and surrounded by other buildings. Don't forget there are also 2 convention/conference centers on the property too.

Calgarian
May 19, 2011, 9:52 PM
The parking is definitely because it's in the middle of nowhere, plus American sports facilities just have SOOO much more on average than we do. I've actually been to baseball games where you can park well over half a kilometer away, on contiguous asphalt.

Oh absolutely the US facilities have more, the minimum size for an NFL stadium is around 80 000 people! that's McMahon (with extra seats), plus 2 Saddledomes!

The area around Staples Centre is more in line with what I was thinking.

Stang
May 19, 2011, 9:55 PM
Seattle is a good example of two big stadiums, downtown, near transit, and no giant sea of parking nearby.

polishavenger
May 19, 2011, 9:58 PM
In my mind any new arean should essentially be surrounded by a mall incorporating CRU's and entertaiment establishments, hotels, convention space, and residential. this model would work great in the west village with the stadium component built right next to the C-Train Station. There needs to be activity around the clock in a place like this, not just during game days.

Innersoul1
May 19, 2011, 10:01 PM
That's definitely not the model I'm advocating. a small arena district surrounded by an ocean of parking is just a horrible use of land.

Yeah, not advocating that kind of development either. I think that the olympic way redevelopment will help to create a bit of a district. Adding the new Cowboys aspect to the Casino and potential hotel will surely add to all of that

How about the Staples Center and Nokia Theatre area of L.A. (called L.A. Live)? Lots of restaurants, a courtyard, 2 world class hotels and not a whack of parking lots surrounding the area. Not immediately on the subway line though.

I like LA Live but I don't find it as inviting from the street. In fact, given that the conference centre is right next to the Staples Centre there is certainly not a lot of traffic but if you look at Google Streetview the streets around the Staples Centre are not inviting at all! THat being said, the Staples Centre and Nokia centre are nothing short of amazing.

fusili
May 19, 2011, 10:04 PM
The parking is definitely because it's in the middle of nowhere, plus American sports facilities just have SOOO much more on average than we do. I've actually been to baseball games where you can park well over half a kilometer away, on contiguous asphalt.

Kansas City's parking lot is ENORMOUS. (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=kansas+city+royals&aq=&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=52.967233,107.138672&ie=UTF8&hq=kansas+city+royals&hnear=&ll=39.049286,-94.479396&spn=0.015048,0.026157&t=h&z=16) The Saddledome (or McMahon) has practically no parking by comparison.

Oh absolutely the US facilities have more, the minimum size for an NFL stadium is around 80 000 people! that's McMahon (with extra seats), plus 2 Saddledomes!

The area around Staples Centre is more in line with what I was thinking.

Just compare Kansas city's parking lot to Barcelona's. link (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Nou+Camp,+Carrer+d'Ar%C3%ADstides+Maillol,+Barcelona,+%C4%B0spanya&aq=0&sll=39.052252,-94.471521&sspn=0.042992,0.109005&ie=UTF8&hq=Nou+Camp,+Carrer+d'Ar%C3%ADstides+Maillol,+Barcelona,+%C4%B0spanya&t=h&z=16). Nou camp has a capacity of almost 100K. Almost no parking.

kw5150
May 19, 2011, 10:04 PM
I really hope the best for this. Many arenas around the world are dead space unless a game is going on. Be careful what you wish for.

kw5150
May 19, 2011, 10:06 PM
Just compare Kansas city's parking lot to Barcelona's. link (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Nou+Camp,+Carrer+d'Ar%C3%ADstides+Maillol,+Barcelona,+%C4%B0spanya&aq=0&sll=39.052252,-94.471521&sspn=0.042992,0.109005&ie=UTF8&hq=Nou+Camp,+Carrer+d'Ar%C3%ADstides+Maillol,+Barcelona,+%C4%B0spanya&t=h&z=16). Nou camp has a capacity of almost 100K. Almost no parking.

very cool. Love Barcelona. maybe I am just being harsh on Calgary. In reality, thousands of people take transit to get to games. I am actually quite impressed.

Innersoul1
May 19, 2011, 10:08 PM
Seattle is a good example of two big stadiums, downtown, near transit, and no giant sea of parking nearby.

Amazing bars and restaurants around both stadia as well.

Calgarian
May 19, 2011, 10:10 PM
Just compare Kansas city's parking lot to Barcelona's. link (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Nou+Camp,+Carrer+d'Ar%C3%ADstides+Maillol,+Barcelona,+%C4%B0spanya&aq=0&sll=39.052252,-94.471521&sspn=0.042992,0.109005&ie=UTF8&hq=Nou+Camp,+Carrer+d'Ar%C3%ADstides+Maillol,+Barcelona,+%C4%B0spanya&t=h&z=16). Nou camp has a capacity of almost 100K. Almost no parking.

European cities do it right, but they have the population density in the area immediately surrounding the stadium to have most people actually walk to the game. Transit is far ahead in Europe too, once again because of the density of the city.

MichaelS
May 19, 2011, 10:19 PM
In my mind any new arean should essentially be surrounded by a mall incorporating CRU's and entertaiment establishments, hotels, convention space, and residential. this model would work great in the west village with the stadium component built right next to the C-Train Station. There needs to be activity around the clock in a place like this, not just during game days.

Isn't this kind of what we have with the Saddledome, once Stampede Trail is built out? They are putting a hotel in I believe, we have the convention space with BMO centre, and all the condo towers surrounding it are built (or being built, as in Epic and Nuera 2 and Keynote 2).

All these wish lists sound very similar to what we will soon have. Problem is not enough box seats in the saddledome. I don't think that is a big enough problem to justify a huge layout of tax payer dollars.

Calgarian
May 19, 2011, 10:23 PM
Isn't this kind of what we have with the Saddledome, once Stampede Trail is built out? They are putting a hotel in I believe, we have the convention space with BMO centre, and all the condo towers surrounding it are built (or being built, as in Epic and Nuera 2 and Keynote 2).

All these wish lists sound very similar to what we will soon have. Problem is not enough box seats in the saddledome. I don't think that is a big enough problem to justify a huge layout of tax payer dollars.

We will have that, unfortunately the dome is supposed to be demolished within 5 years, so it is kind of a moot point (unless the new arena goes on that street or very near by).

Barnes
May 19, 2011, 10:27 PM
Columbus has a pretty neat arena district with a ball park that I wish we could have in Calgary.

http://millenniumsportstechnologies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/01.jpg

DizzyEdge
May 19, 2011, 10:32 PM
Don't forget the zombies. Anyone able to dig up that pic from the WLRT days?

All I can find is this :(

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/5429/zombierz0.png

DizzyEdge
May 19, 2011, 10:35 PM
Oh here we go:

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3377/zombielrtcd4.jpg
my pic

MichaelS
May 19, 2011, 10:35 PM
We will have that, unfortunately the dome is supposed to be demolished within 5 years, so it is kind of a moot point (unless the new arena goes on that street or very near by).

Where did you hear this?!?

polishavenger
May 19, 2011, 10:37 PM
Isn't this kind of what we have with the Saddledome, once Stampede Trail is built out? They are putting a hotel in I believe, we have the convention space with BMO centre, and all the condo towers surrounding it are built (or being built, as in Epic and Nuera 2 and Keynote 2).

All these wish lists sound very similar to what we will soon have. Problem is not enough box seats in the saddledome. I don't think that is a big enough problem to justify a huge layout of tax payer dollars.

Close, but Im talking integrated with the stadium structure itself. When games are out, nobody is using the building or the concorse areas. If the concourse was part of an active mall, then there would be no reason the building would be dead during the day.

suburb
May 19, 2011, 10:44 PM
Isn't this kind of what we have with the Saddledome, once Stampede Trail is built out? They are putting a hotel in I believe, we have the convention space with BMO centre, and all the condo towers surrounding it are built (or being built, as in Epic and Nuera 2 and Keynote 2).

All these wish lists sound very similar to what we will soon have. Problem is not enough box seats in the saddledome. I don't think that is a big enough problem to justify a huge layout of tax payer dollars.

The problem with the BMO centre and the immediate stampede visinity are several:

1. It can't be used for most conventions because there are very few rooms required by conventions. There are the exhibition halls and a couple very small rooms. So it is not a convention centre but more an exhibition centre. There is a difference.
2. There are no, or not enough, hotels within walking distance. That's the other reason that the BMO centre, even if it had additional break out rooms, is not great for conventions.

With respect to the Staples centre example, I've been advocating for that all along. We need to integrate major projects - and we already have a convention centre expansion or re-do in the works. I haven't heard thoughts around the convention centre planning, but there is no real room around the existing one. Maybe the whole thing can be moved and placed in an integrated site big enough for a new arena and all the stuff we love to see around it to make it lively, exciting and the place to be.

mersar
May 20, 2011, 12:16 AM
We will have that, unfortunately the dome is supposed to be demolished within 5 years, so it is kind of a moot point (unless the new arena goes on that street or very near by).

It will be very close based on discussions I've had with people who work for the firm doing the plans for the new arena for the Flames. Though theres nothing saying the Dome will be demolished in 5 years, the Flames lease is up in 3 though.

Calgarian
May 20, 2011, 12:32 AM
Where did you hear this?!?

The Flames want to demolish the dome when they build a new arena, that way the new building won't have to compete with the dome for revenue.

I've said it before, I think they should keep the dome and demo the corral.

MalcolmTucker
May 20, 2011, 12:42 AM
Yeah, have a contract that limits the dome to 10,000 seats or maybe the lower bowl (or number of seats equivalent so could still use 'auditorium set up'), low enough that it isn't in direct competition, but high enough to generate enough revenue to keep up maintenance. If the economics don't work after 5 years the city could re-evaluate, but there is little point in destroying civic infrastructure before its possible shelf life is up.

Could always rework the bowl to make it entirely retractable seating to have a nice flat pad for trade shows aswell (not sure on the engineering feasibility of this, but I doubt the seat supports in the bowl support much other than the seats themselves, while providing amentity space below).

Vancouver gets by with both GM Place and Pacific Coliseum, and Salt Lake has (or had) two large arenas for when they hosted the Olympics.

albertantraingeek
May 20, 2011, 3:11 AM
We dont need two dead spaces in the downtown area (stampede)


I like your thinking! That would be :yuck:

MichaelS
May 20, 2011, 3:57 AM
The Flames want to demolish the dome when they build a new arena, that way the new building won't have to compete with the dome for revenue.

I've said it before, I think they should keep the dome and demo the corral.

The Flames don't own the Dome, so I don't think what they want really matters when it comes to the Dome's demolition (or not).

Calgarian
May 20, 2011, 2:36 PM
I thought the Flames did own the dome, if not them it must be the city?

93JC
May 20, 2011, 3:12 PM
The City owns the Saddledome. The Flames took over management of the building in 1995, but they don't actually own the building and at the end of the day do not have any direct say in whether or not it is demolished.

The Flames want the Saddledome gone because they want the new arena to be the only venue in Calgary for major concerts, trade shows and other events. They fear the City (presuming they take over the management of the Saddledome) would undercut their bids for these events and drive down the profitability of the new arena (and the whole point of the new arena is so that the Flames can make more money; it has nothing to do with the age of the facility).

This argument is kind of silly on the Flames' part because the Saddledome is inherently not a good concert venue. Major concerts skip Calgary/Saddledome because the structure itself was not designed to have enormous sound riggings hung from the rafters. Where the new arena may face competition from the Saddledome is civic events, minor hockey and other indoor sports (lacrosse, for instance; the Roughnecks may have been in far better financial shape if they could have gotten a better lease from the City rather than having to pay the exorbitant lease the Flames imposed). These are pretty low-margin events though, so again I'm not entirely sure why the Flames are so apparently paranoid about the Saddledome.

MichaelS
May 20, 2011, 3:12 PM
I thought for sure it was The City that owned it, but not according to this:
http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/CalgaryFlames/index.htm

Althought just checking wikipedia, it says owned by The City:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotiabank_Saddledome

So I am pretty sure it is City owned. Maybe someone else can confirm this with a source better than wikipedia?

edit: Thanks 93JC for confirming.

I think the Saddledome could still pose competition to a new arena for some major concerts. Elton John did just play there last Saturday. Yes, some big acts skip us, but many don't.

Innersoul1
May 20, 2011, 3:46 PM
European cities do it right, but they have the population density in the area immediately surrounding the stadium to have most people actually walk to the game. Transit is far ahead in Europe too, once again because of the density of the city.

Indeed, the density of most European cities dictate that stadia need to be placed in central locations close to public transportation. Here is a link to the new stadium being built in Valencia spain. It's a pretty amazing stadium but the thread went dead in 2008.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=119962

Turns out that financial difficulties have stalled stadium construction....to bad for such a large project.

polishavenger
May 20, 2011, 3:47 PM
I thought for sure it was The City that owned it, but not according to this:
http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/CalgaryFlames/index.htm

Althought just checking wikipedia, it says owned by The City:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotiabank_Saddledome

So I am pretty sure it is City owned. Maybe someone else can confirm this with a source better than wikipedia?

edit: Thanks 93JC for confirming.

I think the Saddledome could still pose competition to a new arena for some major concerts. Elton John did just play there last Saturday. Yes, some big acts skip us, but many don't.

What I think would be cool would be to build a row of highrises integrated with the east side of the dome, tear off the roof, remove all the seats and create a tiered outdoor park/garden with a coliseum type seating and performance area.

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 3:52 PM
I wonder if there is a way that they could keep the rink, fill in the bottom 2 or 3 floors with retail (or something) and then keep the top portion as a convention centre or venue?

They could open up the NW wall and replace it with a window wall with a direct view to the city. The mayor could do speaches while pacing back and forth along the stage area with the city in the background...........

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 3:54 PM
from: http://www.arcaro.org/tension/album/saddledome01.jpg

http://www.arcaro.org/tension/album/saddledome01.jpg

The bones of the building are great, but nevermind about opening up the NW wall............lol That may be too much engineering........

Build a geodesic dome over the whole thing and turn it into a biosphere..........

Airboy
May 20, 2011, 4:19 PM
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/Alberta+politicians+open+wallets+Edmonton+arena/4812893/story.html


I've posted this on both Arena threads.

CorporateWhore
May 20, 2011, 4:49 PM
You don't need to be in the design field to realize that the amount of money it would take to convert the Dome into your idea (or any other use) would be pretty damn high.....might as well put that money into a new purpose-built building instead of forcing it into something that would never be ideal. And without consistent usage, that land is too big and valuable to sit empty for most of the year. Let's face it, as soon as there's a new arena, the Dome is a goner.

Calgarian
May 20, 2011, 4:54 PM
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/Alberta+politicians+open+wallets+Edmonton+arena/4812893/story.html


I've posted this on both Arena threads.

Good news! I think the money would be better spent on many many other things.

Ramsayfarian
May 20, 2011, 4:54 PM
lol, what? Dont be mad just because I said 17th is dead. Are you involved in the design field in anyway? You dont seem to have much of an imagination. Just so you know, you are right, we tend to hit the bong every now and then, but we dont inhale.

Who said anything about being mad? I'm not in the design field, I'm in the common sense field.

Calgarian
May 20, 2011, 4:54 PM
from: http://www.arcaro.org/tension/album/saddledome01.jpg

http://www.arcaro.org/tension/album/saddledome01.jpg

The bones of the building are great, but nevermind about opening up the NW wall............lol That may be too much engineering........

Build a geodesic dome over the whole thing and turn it into a biosphere..........

This is what makes the Dome so valuable to me, it's a pretty unique piece of engineering.

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 4:58 PM
This is what makes the Dome so valuable to me, it's a pretty unique piece of engineering.

It sure is man!

Calgarian
May 20, 2011, 4:58 PM
They could open up the NW wall and replace it with a window wall with a direct view to the city. The mayor could do speaches while pacing back and forth along the stage area with the city in the background...........

It would be cheaper to demolish the building and build what you are saying than to try and retrofit the dome.

93JC
May 20, 2011, 5:27 PM
... without consistent usage, that land is too big and valuable to sit empty for most of the year. Let's face it, as soon as there's a new arena, the Dome is a goner.

I think you overestimate the political palatability of demolishing the Saddledome. It would be like tearing down the Calgary Tower. Not quite to that degree, but similar. It's a civic landmark.

CorporateWhore
May 20, 2011, 5:34 PM
I think you overestimate the political palatability of demolishing the Saddledome. It would be like tearing down the Calgary Tower. Not quite to that degree, but similar. It's a civic landmark.

I don't disagree with you, but at the end of the day someone has to pony up and pay the bills to maintain the thing. My guess is all sentiment will be lost on the owner after the first few million....

It's a civic landmark that unfortunately doesn't have a lot of other realistic uses. Just like with Rexall up north, whatever event/show could go there would be better served by the new arena.

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 5:38 PM
You don't need to be in the design field to realize that the amount of money it would take to convert the Dome into your idea (or any other use) would be pretty damn high.....might as well put that money into a new purpose-built building instead of forcing it into something that would never be ideal. And without consistent usage, that land is too big and valuable to sit empty for most of the year. Let's face it, as soon as there's a new arena, the Dome is a goner.

It was a goddam joke. Thats what we do on here, right? Since, this site is not the final word on everything, I think I have a right to use my creative side once in while and just dream up something ridiculous.

CorporateWhore
May 20, 2011, 5:47 PM
It was a goddam joke. Thats what we do on here, right? Since, this site is not the final word on everything, I think I have a right to use my creative side once in while and just dream up something ridiculous.

Feel free to put up every silly idea you have, but don't get mad if people respond in kind. This isn't kindergarden, don't expect stickers handed out for creativity.

93JC
May 20, 2011, 5:49 PM
I don't disagree with you, but at the end of the day someone has to pony up and pay the bills to maintain the thing. My guess is all sentiment will be lost on the owner after the first few million....

It's a civic landmark that unfortunately doesn't have a lot of other realistic uses. Just like with Rexall up north, whatever event/show could go there would be better served by the new arena.

True. I think there are still plenty of uses for the Saddledome beyond Calgary Flames hockey. Vancouver's Pacific Coliseum is still around 15 years after the Canucks moved to GM Place for example.

CorporateWhore
May 20, 2011, 5:57 PM
True. I think there are still plenty of uses for the Saddledome beyond Calgary Flames hockey. Vancouver's Pacific Coliseum is still around 15 years after the Canucks moved to GM Place for example.

I have my doubts if it can be sustainable for the long term, but hey, if the Dome can find a use to help it stay around, more power to it!

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 6:05 PM
Feel free to put up every silly idea you have, but don't get mad if people respond in kind. This isn't kindergarden, don't expect stickers handed out for creativity.

Im not mad, I just think it is halarious how close minded and complacent people are in Calgary. Dont be scared to be shot down once in a while.

Winnipeg is even doing things that we wouldn't even dream of right now. Give your head a shake.

I bet you would have shot down this idea as well. It is a museum AND residential AND office complex in Minneapolis built from an old pilsbury factory.
Heaven forbid! It must have costed a buck or two more than a square box.


from: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rUGdluXjOEc/TRodpNCVlzI/AAAAAAAABeM/qi-dpaneNtU/s1600/Minneapolis+Mill+City+Museum+%252810%2529.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rUGdluXjOEc/TRodpNCVlzI/AAAAAAAABeM/qi-dpaneNtU/s1600/Minneapolis+Mill+City+Museum+%252810%2529.JPG

Calgarian
May 20, 2011, 6:16 PM
It's a lot easier to convert an industrial use than a stadium. I challenge you to find examples of an enclosed stadium / arena that has been converted.

CorporateWhore
May 20, 2011, 6:16 PM
Im not mad, I just think it is halarious how close minded and complacent people are in Calgary. Dont be scared to be shot down once in a while.

Winnipeg is even doing things that we wouldn't even dream of right now. Give your head a shake.

I bet you would have shot down this idea as well. It is a museum AND residential AND office complex in Minneapolis built from an old pilsbury factory.


You seriously need to cut the drama-queen act, you remind me of angsty college kids who instantly think they have everyone else figured out. Trust me, the world is not out to squash your genius.

I do like how I'm some sort of square box pusher now though. I guess all the years on this board calling for more progressive designs in this city was just a ruse. Silly me.

freeweed
May 20, 2011, 6:35 PM
You seriously need to cut the drama-queen act, you remind me of angsty college kids who instantly think they have everyone else figured out. Trust me, the world is not out to squash your genius.

Admit it, you're just a sheep.

MichaelS
May 20, 2011, 6:43 PM
Im not mad, I just think it is halarious how close minded and complacent people are in Calgary. Dont be scared to be shot down once in a while.

Winnipeg is even doing things that we wouldn't even dream of right now. Give your head a shake.

I bet you would have shot down this idea as well. It is a museum AND residential AND office complex in Minneapolis built from an old pilsbury factory.
Heaven forbid! It must have costed a buck or two more than a square box.


Can you give some examples of what Winnipeg is doing that we wouldn't dream of?

CorporateWhore
May 20, 2011, 6:48 PM
Admit it, you're just a sheep.

Take that baaaaaack.

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 6:55 PM
Can you give some examples of what Winnipeg is doing that we wouldn't dream of?

do you really want to do this?

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 7:01 PM
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j322/wpgsportsfan/CMHR/DSCF0538.jpg

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j322/wpgsportsfan/CMHR/DSCF0542.jpg

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j322/wpgsportsfan/CMHR/DSCF0544.jpg

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j322/wpgsportsfan/CMHR/DSCF0558.jpg

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j322/wpgsportsfan/CMHR/DSCF0551.jpg

I hate how the new addition of the Children's Museum blocks the view of the Riel Esplanade

The forks area redevelopment including the New Museum.

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 7:06 PM
from: http://uniter.ca/images/articles/63-may-rrc-reimer.jpg

http://uniter.ca/images/articles/63-may-rrc-reimer.jpg

CorporateWhore
May 20, 2011, 7:07 PM
Despite the dramatics, KW does have a point about Winnipeg being a good inspiration point for Calgary. They don't get many projects, but what they do get, they spend their time making right. The quality of the architecture in that city is pretty impressive, and I would say generally quite a bit higher than Alberta. It's a hidden gem in Canada.

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 7:08 PM
I bet this is expensive.......

new windows are starting to apear in the royal bank building
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5566/royal3u.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9550/royal2n.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5024/5644235221_615d35d90d_b.jpg



also i noticed piles of construction fece laying on the sidewalk of king and mcdermot andone know whats up there?

polishavenger
May 20, 2011, 7:56 PM
Despite the dramatics, KW does have a point about Winnipeg being a good inspiration point for Calgary. They don't get many projects, but what they do get, they spend their time making right. The quality of the architecture in that city is pretty impressive, and I would say generally quite a bit higher than Alberta. It's a hidden gem in Canada.

Ive always said that if Winnipeg could get its act together and spur some decent economic growth (they are working hard on doing it, I know), then they inner city has some great bones to work with. If their exchange district could fill in the many gaps it currently has and revive itself with more residential developement, it would be a pretty sweet place to be.

freeweed
May 20, 2011, 8:11 PM
I bet this is expensive.......

It sure is, and that building also sat vacant and derelict for decades. There was a small bit of use in the early 90s (the old elevator was scary as all hell) but as far as I know it's been empty beyond that since the 80s, maybe the 70s.

Not exactly something to aspire to. Calgary simply doesn't have the inventory of old buildings to reno like Winnipeg does.

Calgarian
May 20, 2011, 8:42 PM
Winnipeg definitely does build things very nice, but Calgary is definitely moving in the right direction (Cantos, Riverwalk, new office buildings etc.).

Either way, this thread is about a new arena, and what possible uses there are for the Dome once it's replaced. KW, you have some interesting ideas and it's good that you are thinking outside the box, it's just some of your ideas are very unrealistic.

kw5150
May 20, 2011, 8:59 PM
Winnipeg definitely does build things very nice, but Calgary is definitely moving in the right direction (Cantos, Riverwalk, new office buildings etc.).

Either way, this thread is about a new arena, and what possible uses there are for the Dome once it's replaced. KW, you have some interesting ideas and it's good that you are thinking outside the box, it's just some of your ideas are very unrealistic.

Fine, I will limit my unrealistic ideas to Monday Wednesday and friday......speaking of friday.......

CD2LRROpph0

craner
May 20, 2011, 9:02 PM
The forks area redevelopment including the New Museum.

Amazing what $100 mil of federal tax dollars will build.

jsbertram
May 21, 2011, 8:25 AM
It sure is, and that building also sat vacant and derelict for decades. There was a small bit of use in the early 90s (the old elevator was scary as all hell) but as far as I know it's been empty beyond that since the 80s, maybe the 70s.

Not exactly something to aspire to. Calgary simply doesn't have the inventory of old buildings to reno like Winnipeg does.

The reason Calgary doesn't have the inventory of old buildings downtown to reno like 'peg does is because at the time they were shuttering their old empty buildings, Calgary was knocking old buildings over for stuff like TD Square, City Hall, Glenbow, Olympic Plaza, Gulf Canada Square, Bow Valley Square, Esso Plaza (just to rattle off a few 70s and 80 downtown big-block projects).

On the other hand, somehow Inglewood was mostly ignored until the last decade, so many of their pre-WW1 buildings are being restored instead of being demolished and replaced with something 'shinier and prettier'.

Bassic Lab
May 21, 2011, 7:27 PM
I have my doubts if it can be sustainable for the long term, but hey, if the Dome can find a use to help it stay around, more power to it!

I would think that the city/Stampede could find a number of events that would be able to pay the bills for the Saddledome. The Flames might not like it because some of those events, namely certain concerts, would cut into the margins they could charge with a monopoly on arena space.

As it is, with a single arena and three sports tenants, there are a number of events that we just cannot hold. With two arenas we could host the Memorial Cup and international tournaments. Sure we are hosting the 2012 World Juniors but we are sharing that honour with Edmonton. We simply don't have the capacity to do it on our own whereas cities like Halifax and Saskatoon are capable of making independent bids.

Could the Saddledome even accept more concerts if the acts wanted to play here and weren't concerned about the roof? I imagine there would be a real concern over scheduling as it is if the Flames, Hitmen, and Roughnecks all had long playoff runs in a single year.

suburb
May 21, 2011, 7:31 PM
Amazing what $100 mil of federal tax dollars will build.

It is a LOT more than $100M from the feds - there is an additional $22M per year for operations - as this thing is a money sink in a major way. So over a couple decades, that's over half a billion! And that doesn't even count the provincial and municipal contributions / concessions.