[miketoronto]

How common is it in your city for the rapid transit lines(subway or LRT) to be full from either the starting station or within two or street stops from the starting?

This seems to be a very big issue here in Toronto and I was just wondering what it is like in other places.

I am lucky because I get on at the start of the line. But the min the train leaves the station, almost all seats are taken, and in many cases it is standing room only from the start. This is all during rush hour.

In one case(the Yonge subway), we have 100,000 riders a day going to just one station, and that is the terminal station. So that produces major crowding along that line so much so you don't get a seat at all in most cases in rush hour, after the train has hit two or three stops from the start. Or even from the start of the line.

Anyway just wondering like I said about your city.

[electricron]

In Dallas, during peak rush hour, most Dart trains are full before leaving the first few stations at the end (start) of the line in the mornings, and full before leaving the last downtown station in the evenings. Dart every few years builds more parking spaces at these end of line stations. So what you experience isn't exclusive to just Toronto.

[Cirrus]

Depends on the line. It is a huge problem on the Orange, not at all one on the Green.

[The Chemist]

In Shanghai, at least on the lines I frequent, and most likely for the others as well, the closer to the city centre you get, the more crowded the lines get. The terminal stations of most lines are not really major destinations in most cases, as the more densely populated areas closer to the city centre have many more passengers boarding. Transfer stations between lines tend to be the busiest stations on the network.

[dchan]

Are you complaining that people aren't getting seats on a subway or LRT during rush hours? Or are you complaining about overcrowding?

If you're simply complaining that people can't get seats and, god forbid, have to stand during rush hours, then suck it up and act like a man - it's a subway and mass transit for god sakes. It's designed to be carry a lot of people, most of whom won't be sitting.

But if your issue is overcrowding, then that's another issue altogether. The 7 Train in NYC is notorious for being overcrowded starting from its Main Street, Flushing terminal to the point that people at later stations sometimes have to wait for a few trains to pass before they can actually squeeze into one.

[bmfarley]

How common is it in your city for the rapid transit lines(subway or LRT) to be full from either the starting station or within two or street stops from the starting?

This seems to be a very big issue here in Toronto and I was just wondering what it is like in other places.

I am lucky because I get on at the start of the line. But the min the train leaves the station, almost all seats are taken, and in many cases it is standing room only from the start. This is all during rush hour.

In one case(the Yonge subway), we have 100,000 riders a day going to just one station, and that is the terminal station. So that produces major crowding along that line so much so you don't get a seat at all in most cases in rush hour, after the train has hit two or three stops from the start. Or even from the start of the line.

Anyway just wondering like I said about your city.
San Diego's Blue Line from the San Ysidro station is packed, standing room only. 7.5 minute service begins very early in the morning b/c of demand along this entire line and into downtown. And recently, the Blue Line switched to a 4-car train leaving as the first train in the morning to accomodate demand.

[J. Will]

Having to let a few trains pass before there's room to get on one (which I've had to do many times) is not a big deal as long as you have high service frequency (which I would describe as headways no longer than 3 minutes). Many systems though, have terrible service frequency (headways of 6 minutes or longer even during peak hours). In those cases, I believe heavy crowding disaudes people from using public transit, which is a real shame.

[Shawn]

In one case(the Yonge subway), we have 100,000 riders a day going to just one station, and that is the terminal station.

Shinjuku Station: 3.64 million per weekday
Ikebukuro Station: 2.71 million per weekday
Shibuya Station: 2.4 million per weekday
Yokohama Station: 2.05 million per weekday
Kita-senju Station: 1.3 million per weekday
...and about 70 more over 100,000.

Between 7 and 9 in the morning and late at night (11-1), trains are uncomfortably packed. The rest of the time they are just really busy. Manageable, but busy. Those rush-hours though . . . horrible.

[tdawg]

We're lucky we have dozens of rail lines serving New York. I get on at the end of the N and W trains at Ditmars Blvd. Most of the time, I am able to get a seat in the morning, due in part to the frequency of the service (a train about every 4 or 5 minutes), unless the train is just about to leave and I barely catch it, then it is full. Luckily my office is only 7 stops from my stop, the first in Manhattan.

[Riise]

Yup! Is 'back-riding' common elsewhere? Here in Calgary, people at the 2nd and 3rd to last stations sometimes take a train heading towards the last station just so they can get a seat on the return trip downtown.

[VivaLFuego]

How common is it in your city for the rapid transit lines(subway or LRT) to be full from either the starting station or within two or street stops from the starting?

This seems to be a very big issue here in Toronto and I was just wondering what it is like in other places.

I am lucky because I get on at the start of the line. But the min the train leaves the station, almost all seats are taken, and in many cases it is standing room only from the start. This is all during rush hour.

In one case(the Yonge subway), we have 100,000 riders a day going to just one station, and that is the terminal station. So that produces major crowding along that line so much so you don't get a seat at all in most cases in rush hour, after the train has hit two or three stops from the start. Or even from the start of the line.

Anyway just wondering like I said about your city.

Varies widely by lines in Chicago. The Orange Line has something like 60% of its traffic generated at the last two stops of the line, so inbound/outbound in the peak periods it's usually standing-room-only between Pulaski and downtown. Most of the other lines have more "normal" loading patterns, hitting their peak loads gradually as the trains approach downtown. In the peak of the peak the trains are often crushed (no room to get on) several stations out from the Loop, particularly on the inbound Blue, Red, and Brown from the north side... but not by the beginning/end of the line.

It also varies pretty widely by time of year. Passenger demand generally peaks around September/October, so in these months even the slightest service disruption/irregularity means the loading standard gets all screwed up and passengers will be waiting for a few trains to pass before they can squeeze on. The coldest winter months tend to have a little excess capacity and thus more wiggle room in the operating schedule to meet the demand.

[SpongeG]

the stations with bus loops are usually busier here the ones in between are quite dead usually

the terminal stations also aren't really the busy ones here

[twoNeurons]

In Osaka, on the Midosuji line, during rush hour, on a massively long train, on the second station from the terminus (Never taken it from the terminus during the rush) there is squishing room only.

[MayorOfChicago]

It depends in Chicago. The stations are normally NOT packed within their first stop or two, but it certainly picks up. I know the Green and Pink Lines normally have no problems with severe overcrowding. We always heckle at the Pink Line downtown at Rush Hour because there's always so much room, and we Purple Line riders have to wait and wait to find a train to get on.


The Red and Brown Lines on the north side normally fill to capacity around halfway through their trips, but then at Belmont and Fullerton people do a huge switching up, going back and forth between the Red and Brown Line trains (I go Red to Brown in the morning). Usually you can get on a train as everyone is switching, but then they are right back at capacity by the next station.

I know on the Brown line there were HUGE issues with people at the last 5 stations in trying to get on the train before downtown. I was actually in the 4th to the last station, and many many times I would have to wait for up to 4 trains with absolutely no free room to stop and pass before I could sqeeze on a train. When a train came that for whatever spacing reason had amble room, it was almost like an amazing feeling to get on the train.

The headways are only around 2-3 minutes though, so even on those days when I had to wait for the 4th train to board, it was only around 11-12 minutes or so. While that is a LONG time, the constant flow of trains made you feel a little better than you could possibly squeeze on "the next one" which you could see waiting right behind the full one.

It would be a lot more frantic if you couldn't get on a train, and knew the next one coming was in 8-10 minutes or something.


Downtown has the same issue. The last stations before leaving up north are always a guessing game on how many trains you'll have to sit through before boarding. Usually I leave work a few minutes early if I'm trying for the Merch Mart on the way out of town, otherwise if I leave right at 5pm, I go to a closer in station where I know I can at least board, even though I'll have to ride around a bit longer.

[crooked rain]

Yup! Is 'back-riding' common elsewhere? Here in Calgary, people at the 2nd and 3rd to last stations sometimes take a train heading towards the last station just so they can get a seat on the return trip downtown.

Unless they are pregnant, disabled or old, this is pathetic. No ride to downtown is that long in Calgary that it is a burden to stand.

[Lighthouse]

I know back riding happens in Vancouver in the PM peak. People at Granville and Burrard station get on and ride a couple of stations back to Waterfront station so they can get a seat. I've noticed that it's not signifcant enough to crowd the trains however.

[Wizened Variations]

Part of the problem of crowding on subways, light rails, and commuter trains, IMO is traceable to very poor station design, particular in the US and Canada. In the US, since World War II, to my knowledge, not one station within a route has been built with an extra set of express tracks. If on a given line in a given direction, train X can easily pass train Y, then the passengers per hour potential on the line increases dramatically. Trains should not have to start picking up passengers at the beginning of a line, have to stop at every stop, or run through stations at speed next to platforms. The Japanese, understand this superbly, and, consequently are masters at designing train scheduling and route stops per train using this concept. In the US, and, Canada, where land costs are relatively cheap compared to land costs in Japan, post WWII built train routes stop at every stop or force express trains to run at speed adjacent to platforms. Transit designers eliminate this option on the basis of 'cost.' Somehow, due to ignorant real estate and highway interests, etc., we, in the US and Canada seem to think that saving $5 or $10 million dollars per station warrants a 30-50% reduction in transportation speed and 50-60% reduction in passengers carried per hour on many of our lines.

I am not talking carte blanche here...even express tracking SOME of the stations helps significantly.


And yes, stations with express tracks means moving people under or over the express set of tracks so that bypassing trains can go through the station at high speed safely.

[DJasmin]

Well, a lot of NY subway lines have this four track layout with express lines running out to the other boroughs.

As for LA, I'd say the red line is packed all the way to the terminal station North Hollywood, as well as the Purple Line at Western Ave. North Hollywood is the only subway station in the entire Valley, and with massive parking, its instantly packing trains w commuters in the morning. As for the Wilshire/Western station, the line stops prematurely on the Wilshire Corridor, basically leading to a high-density, but mass transitless corridor that stretches for miles to the ocean.

[Scruffy]

Part of the problem of crowding on subways, light rails, and commuter trains, IMO is traceable to very poor station design, particular in the US and Canada. In the US, since World War II, to my knowledge, not one station within a route has been built with an extra set of express tracks. If on a given line in a given direction, train X can easily pass train Y, then the passengers per hour potential on the line increases dramatically. Trains should not have to start picking up passengers at the beginning of a line, have to stop at every stop, or run through stations at speed next to platforms. The Japanese, understand this superbly, and, consequently are masters at designing train scheduling and route stops per train using this concept. In the US, and, Canada, where land costs are relatively cheap compared to land costs in Japan, post WWII built train routes stop at every stop or force express trains to run at speed adjacent to platforms. Transit designers eliminate this option on the basis of 'cost.' Somehow, due to ignorant real estate and highway interests, etc., we, in the US and Canada seem to think that saving $5 or $10 million dollars per station warrants a 30-50% reduction in transportation speed and 50-60% reduction in passengers carried per hour on many of our lines.

I am not talking carte blanche here...even express tracking SOME of the stations helps significantly.


And yes, stations with express tracks means moving people under or over the express set of tracks so that bypassing trains can go through the station at high speed safely.

the majority of NYC is built with express and local track. 4 tracks. Towards the end of the line, we have a 3 track system. The middle being express towards the center of the city in morning rush and outbound in the afternoon. But even with that at the very first stop, the end of the lines i have seen trains at capacity. The worst offender of the first stop madness i think is the 7 line in Flushing Queens. I now live 4 stops away from the end of the 6 train in the BX out of 37. And its a supremely lucky day if i manage to snag a seat in the morning.

[Cirrus]

You know, I think when subway/metro lines fill up at end-line stations, what that really says more than anything is that the commuter rail options in that corridor are lacking.

I'm not sure it's something to be proud of.

[Wright Concept]

You know, I think when subway/metro lines fill up at end-line stations, what that really says more than anything is that the commuter rail options in that corridor are lacking.

I'm not sure it's something to be proud of.

That is precisely the answer I see as well. Because if that service is the only option to get into town rather reliably and frequently then it will be a heavily used option from the start.

In relation to our Red Line trains in LA, they currently run on a 10 minute headway during rush hours, they have loads of capacity to go before we have to start worrying about it. Increasing the headway to 8 minutes would reduce the crowding.

[quashlo]

Just sounds like you need to either increase capacity (longer or higher-capacity trains) or increase frequency, which is generally abysmal in the US. There's also the solution which Wizened Variations mentioned that the Japanese use quite often, which is just passing tracks at key stations to allow for express services without the need to quadruple track the corridor. They also often start trains at different points along the line so that passengers closer in can get on a train. Of course, you need good on-time performance and reliable equipment to get this done, though.

And while it's a nice luxury, there's no real need for every passenger to have a seat. Many US systems use forward-facing seating, which is a hamper for high-capacity operations as it not only reduces standee space but often makes it difficult for passenger flow.

Many people get along just fine standing on their daily commute in major cities everywhere. If you're young and in good health, you really should be leaving the seats for the children and old folks anyways.

[Cirrus]

I think the crowding being discussed here goes way beyond seating. At least it does on the Orange line. By my standards, a train with full seats but plenty of standing area is a pretty empty train.

[Justin10000]

You know, I think when subway/metro lines fill up at end-line stations, what that really says more than anything is that the commuter rail options in that corridor are lacking.

I'm not sure it's something to be proud of.

There is a fairly frequent bus service that mimics the train during the off peak hours. But yeah, the train itself needs to run more often.

The fares is also a factor.

TTC subways = $2.75
GO Train to Old Cummer(It's roughly in the same neighbourhood as the terminal station) = costs around $4.50(The site is down, so I cannot check).
And the commute times is relatively the same, so it's more economical to use the TTC. One way to improve this is to integrate the TTC, and GO fares.

[Scruffy]

Another issue was when I used to live in Hollis Queens. Its 20 blocks past the end of the F train. The train ended in a suburban neighborhood and tons of people from long island would drive in and try to park on these residential streets just to avoid the Long Island Railroad which was adjacent. The LIRR is huge and has mass coverage on the island but is horribly over priced. so instead they would brave traffic jams on the LIExpressway, on the chance they find parking to flood this last stop on the subway. so irritating for those of us who lived in the neighborhood and had no other choice but to take the train