[pwp]

This is a continuation of the conversation started in the Philly Development Thread (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4045254&postcount=8777). Hoping to generate attention and interest to this issue as if we see it to fruition, would have countless positive effect on Philadelphia.

[pwp]

For the sake of saving time and not reinventing the wheel, Don's quoted below to summarize why an expansive subway system is a valuable, if not necessary, step for Philadelphia's growth. Philly has designed a system which transports thousands upon thousands of suburbanites into the city but has failed to provide a modern and efficient means of moving them within the city. Imagine the possibilities of an improved system with additional subway lines: A Parkway route, The Boulevard subway, City Ave Line, etc. Couple this expansion with the American Commerce Center, low real estate prices and a burgeoning population of college graduates. Maybe if we work together one day we can see this come to fruition.

Public transportation in Philadelphia is geared towards the suburbs with a subway that only runs along the absolute skeleton of the city with enormous gaps. Other American cities as dense as Philadelphia, like Chicago, New York, Washington DC, Boston, San Francisco, etc. all have more expansive subway and rail networks WITHIN the city so residents can move about the city as a pedestrian commuter rather than driving to each station. In Philadelphia, you can't really get around WITHIN the city via our subway network unless you live within the buffer zones of broad street and market street. If you look at a population density map, you can see that huge, huge chunks of the city do not live within reasonable walking distance of a subway to move around efficiently. Sure there are buses but they are certainly slower than cars which is why a better subway network could compete with cars in terms of travel time.


I think there is a chance that Obama may enact a bill for subway systems to stimulate inner-city rejuvenation that is similar in scale to Eisenhower's Federal-Aid Highway Act (National Interstate Highways and Defense Act) of 1956. He is definitely our first urban president in a LONG, LONG time and I highly anticipate some real transformative federal appropriation to help cities. That's the only way we're going to reintegrate our cities in this country. Not only would this act be an infrastructure improvement, but by declining car culture it would help to alleviate some our road congestion problems (much less need to spend billions in widening roads), less need for expensive underground city parking facilities, a greater sense of community, less health problems as people walk more, and a move away from sprawling suburbs which would help to mitigate climate change in terms of land use feedbacks as well as less GHGs. Electricity demands would be higher, but in conjunction with a move to clean energy, this is really how a true, intelligent investment of federal funds would help to get america running again. People need to understand that these bailouts, if done correctly, are INVESTMENTS. It's not like renting apartments or buying a car where your money just disappears or depreciates immediately. These are very long term investments that in the end would be a bed rock foundation to our nation's economy.

[SpongeG]

i've never ever seen their existing system

whats it like?

[MonkeyRonin]

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/phil/philadelphia-all-map.png


Extending the Broad Street Spur into the southeast corner of the city (and then maybe back to the southwest), then turning it into a separate line and extending it to the Mount Airy area would seem like a pretty good first move on an expansion. Like so. (http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1784/53920625jw8.jpg)

[volguus zildrohar]

The current system is essentially the spines of what was originally envisioned to be a sort of hub and spoke system.

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/phil/philadelphia-map.gif

The Blue and Orange Lines are the heavy rail subway lines, each originally meant to have several branches into various sections of the city as well as a feeder loop within Center City itself (The Red Line is to Philadelphia what PATH is to NYC and generally is not considered part of the city's subway system). As it is now, most trips in the city via transit involve a bus/subway transfer even for moderate distances. The ridership numbers are healthy but much lower than one would expect for a city this size.

In 1912 a comprehensive subway plan was presented to the city and small sections of it were constructed but thanks to the usual issues (funding, political will, greed) the rest never happened. SEPTA has, until recently, put the emphasis on suburban to city routings. Direct connections between various activity centers in the city are often indirect at best and cumbersome at worst, particularly depending on time of travel. This is not to say that it is hopelessly difficult to traverse Philadelphia via SEPTA but again it is more complex than it ought to be and the lack of a more extensive subway system is a big part of it.

This map, courtesy of Phillyskyline, depicts the original proposals:

http://phillyskyline.com/misc/july1913transitmap.jpg

There have been only reconstructions projects, slight route extensions and realignments since the 1950s. While this isn't terribly over par for other cities with systems of this age the fact that Philadelphia's subway never grew beyond the embryonic stage has really hurt the cohesiveness of Philadelphia. The economic and social geography of this city would be quite different today if even 1/2 of the original plan had been built.

[ardecila]

Isn't PATCO trying to build a waterfront line in roughly the same place that's depicted on that plan? There is apparently some progress...

[hammersklavier]

The fact that this city never built the balance of its planned subway system is today a sword of Damocles for those of us who would like to see it expanded.

Had they fleshed the system out as they were originally trying to, there would today be subways along Ridge, Germantown, and the Boulevard. But Ridge and Germantown run through both extremely wealthy districts, e.g., Manayunk, Chestnut Hill, of the city, as well as extremely poor ones, e.g., Strawberry Mansion, Nicetown, and Northeasterners have been most resistant to the Boulevard subway expansion, although the original plan when the Boulevard was created was to put a subway line there too, as yet another spine.

The main current service expansion proposals in Philly right now are two PATCO expansion, one into South Jersey, the other a light rail line along the waterfront, as well as a route restoration along the R3 from Elwyn to Wawa (it originally went to West Chester, so even then...)

There are a number of threads on Philly Blog and Philadelphia Speaks that talk about this issue:
http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/forum/philadelphia-transportation-septa/581-nj-chooses-new-patco-alignment.html
http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/forum/philadelphia-transportation-septa/625-patco-expansion-suggestion-pa-side.html
http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/forum/philadelphia-transportation-septa/297-philadelphia-transit-improvements-plan.html

http://www.phillyblog.com/philly/showthread.php?t=70890
http://www.phillyblog.com/philly/showthread.php?t=65900
http://www.phillyblog.com/philly/showthread.php?t=66229
http://www.phillyblog.com/philly/showthread.php?t=70376
...and many more. The point being, we all have our own ideas about what to do about our lack of rail mass transit.

[Nomad]

Not to get too into this now, but Philadelphia's hands are rather tied with any new subway service. It is not the decision of the City - projects of this scope are regional in nature as well as needing federal funds for construction. Local funding is a different issue, and currently Phildelphia's local share is about 25 percent of costs (far lower than many other places around the country)

Increased funding would have to come from additional federal funds in the next transportation package or increasing the local share which would involve some sort of tax increase or funneling money out of one program into a transit program. Not to be pessimistic, bot for the foreseeable future, neither will happen.

Now how the regional federal funding is allocated is similar to SEPTA where there is more power in the counties than in the city as they have more votes on the DVRPC board. Additionaly, any new projects must be on the DVRPC regional long range plan - the draft 2035 plan is almost complete.

All in all, to get any additional subway service in Philadelphia would have to be a big sell to the regional players OR the state for increased funding to SEPTA. This is much bigger than Philadelphia as a city.

[the urban politician]

The problem Philadelphia faces is hauntingly similar to Chicago's. It has an excellent transportation network getting people into its central area, but doesn't have much of a system (other than buses) to get people around its central area once they arrive, other than expensive taxicabs.

Ultimately, I have little hope that anything will be done to improve this for a very long time. This is a problem that is outside of Philadelphia or Chicago's hands. It's a problem of the lack of funding for transit nationally.

[Crawford]

While I don't doubt that Philly would like or wants an extended subway, on what basis would this be needed?

Philly's existing subway does not have particularly heavy ridership, and Septa suburban rail coverage is extremely extensive.

If I were to prioritize new subway lines in this country, I don't think any proposed Philly route would come close to being a top priority.

[VivaLFuego]

As with Chicago, Philadelphia really isn't dense enough to support anything other than radial rail lines emanating from a dense employment core. Actually, few places in the world are dense enough to support cross-town, intracity, non-CBD rail lines - the G in New York is that system's lowest ridership line, and every other NY subway line is oriented to serve either Lower Manhattan, Midtown, or both.

That said, Philadelphia indeed has several fairly dense areas that lack any rail connectivity on either the rapid transit or suburban rail networks.

[Crawford]

Actually, few places in the world are dense enough to support cross-town, intracity, non-CBD rail lines - the G in New York is that system's lowest ridership line, and every other NY subway line is oriented to serve either Lower Manhattan, Midtown, or both.


G train ridership is 100.000 daily, which is pretty decent for a very short, non-CBD line. It has the third lowest ridership, and is slightly ahead of the W and M (shuttle trains are not counted).

Though I guess you could say the G has the lowest ridership of any track, rather than any route, because the W and M share tracks with the much busier R and J, respectively.

My issue with a Philly expansion is not whether non-CBD service should be funded; I can't imagine they would build such lines.

I am questioning why something like a Main Line route would be a priority, when there's already an excellent suburban rail route along roughly the same path? The same would go for virtually every proposed route in NE Philly and the PA suburbs.

[Nomad]

I think a better question is whether we want to keep expanding the service out from the core or providing more opportunities within. Expansion services right now tend to be additional stops from existing lines, with examples such as from the Elwynn station to a new Wawa station in Delaware County on the R3 or extending the Broad Street Line in Philadelphia past the stadiums to the Navy Yard. Other 'expansions' include the Schuylkill Valley Metro past Norristown on the R6 to Phoenixville, Pottstown and on to Reading.

Expanding the ends of the lines, while reducing outward congestion, really only encourages sprawl. (maybe not with the Broad Street Line)

What would arguably be better is additional lines within the system and suburb to suburb service. New developments can then grow up around the intersections of lines, similar to how development occurred when rail first came about. But to do that, you need to have land to build and be able to buy it. That is EXTREMELY difficult in this region that is primarily built out in the inner ring suburbs. The exurbs are not dense enough to warrant transit lines at this point. So - what do you do????

[skyscraper]

While I don't doubt that Philly would like or wants an extended subway, on what basis would this be needed?

Philly's existing subway does not have particularly heavy ridership, and Septa suburban rail coverage is extremely extensive.

If I were to prioritize new subway lines in this country, I don't think any proposed Philly route would come close to being a top priority.

its ridership is low because it doesn't connect to enough points to make it convenient for many people to use. if it were expanded and more integrated with the overall city plan, it would be used like crazy. as it is now, the only way to transfer from one line to the other is either at city hall or at 8th and market (if you use the broad-ridge spur.)

[miketoronto]

Ridership I like is low on the Philly subway network, because the communities it serves are not the communities downtown workers live in anymore. So they don't capture a large amount of commuters. Low ridership also can be an issue of public safety. The Philly subway has a very bad reputation safety wise. And while fights happen everywhere, the following fight shows what most people probably think riding the Septa subway is like on a daily basis.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygvdw3nIwHE&feature=related


Second before expanding the subway, I would increase service on the current subway system, and on the suburban rail lines.

You can increase service on some of the suburban rail lines to like every 10 minutes and provide frequent rapid transit service to many points in the city like Manyunk, etc.

[ichigo]

copied from Philly thread...

Wow. I probably should have expected a little outcry at my comments. I'm replying here but if I need to take this elsewhere, someone please let me know. I do feel the need to clarify some misconceptions.



You obviously fail to grasp the dynamics of pricing in the supply and demand equation. As your observation points out, curb space is in HIGH demand, because it is very convenient and priced very low. The most logical and effective way to encourage turnover of parking spaces and increase availability is to INCREASE the parking rates/cost.



And I suggest you remove your head from ideological bubble. I wholeheartedly agree that additionally subway lines could dramatically improve mobility within the city. The absolute fact of the matter is that this will not change much in the next 25 or so years. If you know anything about the transportation planning and funding process, you'll probably agree this is generous. Also, I would like to point out that 70% of Center City's workforce uses public transit to get to work. Things might not be as dire as you make them out to be, as least for a couple of hundred thousand residents of the region.

What I detest about your comments and other similar ones is that it absolves people of responsibility for their own choices. We (the City) shouldn't have to subsidize the convenience of on-street parking for anyone (suburban or city residents). People choose to live where they do, for a variety of reasons. If you choose to live far away from transit, you can pay to park more on-street, or you could make the effort to drive to the nearest train station. Or you could move. Or you could never come to Center City. The fact that you have to drive into the City is a result of your own actions; so accept the consequences.

On another note, I'm not defending the price of off-street parking. $27 for three hours is a lot, and theoretically, yes, short-term parking in garages should be priced lower. I know the city is working with both the PPA and private operators to make that so. Obviously, the city has little control over both.

Lastly, the PPA is a STATE agency. For years now the PPA has been run by Harrisburg. And in terms of what happens with the revenues, the first $25 million in net revenue goes to the City general fund. Anything over that goes directly to the school district. So raising the rates is not (primarily) a scam by the city to rake in more cash.

[SpongeG]

thanks for the map/info posts

[ichigo]

I have to disagree with you. I think the most logical solution is to increase supply and not the prices. Increasing prices will do little but make people (like me) complain about it and little to increase turnover of meter parking and here is why. Within past few year city had such great additions as Cira Center, Comcast and possibly new American Commerce Center. All of this construction brings more and more commuters and residents into the city. All of those people have to park somewhere, so no matter how much you increase the parking rates it will not solve the problem. Eventually some of those business will be driven away because people will be tired of parking and rail situation.

[DocAwesome]

I have to disagree with you. I think the most logical solution is to increase supply and not the prices. Increasing prices will do little but make people (like me) complain about it and little to increase turnover of meter parking and here is why. Within past few year city had such great additions as Cira Center, Comcast and possibly new American Commerce Center. All of this construction brings more and more commuters and residents into the city. All of those people have to park somewhere, so no matter how much you increase the parking rates it will not solve the problem. Eventually some of those business will be driven away because people will be tired of parking and rail situation.


Point taken. However, do you mean increase supply on on-street parking, or parking in general? Because from my experience, the former really isn't feasible on anything bigger than a spot by spot basis, and the latter doesn't seem to be an issue currently.

[pwp]

As with Chicago, Philadelphia really isn't dense enough to support anything other than radial rail lines emanating from a dense employment core. Actually, few places in the world are dense enough to support cross-town, intracity, non-CBD rail lines.

I would disagree. Better intra-city transportation should spur the development that ultimately leads to higher density. The Market-Frankford El runs underneath Market St in downtown Philadelphia. This corridor (or the areas directly adjacent to it) represents the most developed and dense part of the city. The same can be said of the Broad St subway for at least part of it's length.

If a business is located near a public transit stop in an urban area, employees would be tempted to relocate to areas more easily accessible to their employer. Therefore you could assume they'd move closer to a transit stop on the same line/network. This would contribute to density in my opinion.

[volguus zildrohar]

its ridership is low because it doesn't connect to enough points to make it convenient for many people to use. if it were expanded and more integrated with the overall city plan, it would be used like crazy. as it is now, the only way to transfer from one line to the other is either at city hall or at 8th and market (if you use the broad-ridge spur.)

Correct. The system as it is now is laid out not unlike Atlanta's. There are two lines that meet at a central point and otherwise basically never meet. Although here there are several key transit nodes located along both lines with 8th and Market, 30th Street and 69th Street as the only ones with rail connections (all long The El/Blue Line, which may help explain why it's the busiest route on the system). Connectivity is the issue. As I said before, it's simple to ride the subway to some point and transfer to a bus but it isn't convenient, terribly fast or efficient with the way SEPTA runs its schedules.

Also, again, the ridership isn't "low" (as in only used at rush hour), it's simply a case of fewer people seeing it as an option when it's optional (i.e. a night downtown) because of the lack of convenience. Even if the system ran 24/7 what in the world would it connect to? For once I find myself in agreement with miketoronto.

[wanderer34]

I've probably been the biggest booster of mass transit expansion within Phila and the Delaware Valley. For commuter rail, it's simple: just revive all the former PRR and Reading branches, with the Exception of the Norristown and Chestnut Hill lines, which would be integrated with the subway system (West Chester, Reading, Allentown, Easton, Kennett Sq), and NJT should do the same for for South Jersey (Vineland, Cape May, Ocean City, and all the White Horse and Black Horse communities).

The Phila subway system should be with expanded lines of the BSL and MFL going both directions (from Chester to Jenkintown for the BSL, and Darby to Forest Hlls in the Far NE for the MFL), a 5th St-Passyunk line through SW Philly to Darby and North and NE Philly to Fox Chase, another crosstown line from Chester through SW Phila via the airport line and connecting 30th St the Zoo, and North Philly points via the Amtrak line and Erie Ave w/ a subway, and the NE also via State Rd to Bensalem Blvd w/ a Parkway shuttle to the Library, museums, and ending at the zoo and an express airport shuttle connecting to 30th St via Arch St to Penns Landing. And also, the Norristown and Chestnut Hill lines to CC, 30th St, and UC via a North Philly subway line adjacent to the old Reading main line and JFK Blvd.

I feel that PATCO should stick to their original expansion plan of connecting to Maple Shade and Woodbury, with extensions also to Cherry Hill NJT Station and Deptford Mall via two Camden subway tunnels and a Vine St subway connecting to the Pkwy and 30th St. The long distance commuter service (Glassboro, Medford, etc.) should be handled by NJT.

But alas, all this should've been done in the past, and this makes me want to go back in time an do all this myself!!!

[zilfondel]

Question: would these radial routes be serviceable by at-grade light rail with their own right-of-way?

That way you could put some of the roads on a road diet and make them more pedestrian friendly. And light rail would be much more likely to be funded than a subway, capital costs being an order of magnitude lower. Also, if short hops in-city are what you're after, speed is actually less of an issue - although light rail is faster than a bus, especially when they have their own ROW.

Articulated vehicles have a higher capacity than the single-unit streetcars you are currently using.

It's also a great street-beautification project courtesy of the US Government.

Thoughts?

[pwp]

Question: would these radial routes be serviceable by at-grade light rail with their own right-of-way?

What's at-grade light rail? I'm a novice in this field but I assume light rail systems are above ground for the most part. If so, I don't know what streets would be suited well for them other than Delaware Ave that have access to downtown destinations.

[electricron]

What's at-grade light rail? I'm a novice in this field but I assume light rail systems are above ground for the most part. If so, I don't know what streets would be suited well for them other than Delaware Ave that have access to downtown destinations.

The term "At Grade" light rail means running on the surface of the planet.

They can be within their own right of ways, in their own dedicated lanes in streets, or in mixed traffic lanes in streets.

Here's a few examples:
Dedicated ROW:

http://staianoengineering.com/images/450_light_rail_train_with_noise_barrier.JPG

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/6/5731371_f45d8ceea9.jpg?v=0

Dedicated ROW in what use to be a city street

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Light_Rail_Houston.jpg/798px-Light_Rail_Houston.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/2282839741_6fb4c3ed12.jpg?v=0

Dedicated lanes in streets:

http://media.2theadvocate.com/images/427+cvc+metro+copy.jpg

http://kjzz.org/news/arizona/archives/200712/lightrail/lightrailcar.jpg

In mixed traffiic in streets:

http://ntis04.hgac.cog.tx.us/website/photolab/photos/transportation/rail/train11.jpg

http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/08/28/20080828_lightrail_33.jpg

Light Rail can also run in subways:

http://cookfamilyhome.com/fulphot/oct2007/pa040023.jpg

http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/nwk-lrt-subway-20020724x_m-kavanaugh.jpg

Light Rail can also go elevated:

http://www.transportation1.org/tif1report/images/Southeast-Light-Rail-interc.jpg

http://www.cdb.com.cn/WebSite/cdb/UpFile/File1401.jpg

[theWatusi]

we already have light rail...the Subway-Surface lines could be considered this.

BTW the MFL used to exit the Eastern portal and "Y" with one leg turning South and running along basically the same route as the proposed PATCO expansion. It was torn down (in the 40s?) due to low ridership.

[miketoronto]

My idea for the current Septa rail system.


SERVICE UPGRADES

Broad Street Subway
Service every 7 minutes or less at all times during regular operating hours, seven days a week.

Market Frankford EL
Service every 7 minutes or less at all times during regular opereating hours, seven days a week.

Regional Rail Lines

R6: Service every 10 minutes or less during the day Mon-Fri, and every 15 minutes or less weekday evenings and weekends.

R6: Service every 15 minutes or less seven days a week between Center City and Manayunk Stations.

R3: Service every 10 minutes or less during the day Mon-Fri, and every 15 minutes or less weekday evenings and weekends, between Center City and Clifton-Aldan Station.

R2: Service every 15 minutes or less seven days a week between Center City and Sharon Hill Station.

R8: Service every 10 minutes or less during the day Mon-Fri, and every 15 minutes or less weekday evenings and weekends on the entire line.

R7: Service every 10 minutes or less during the day Mon-Fri, and every 15 minutes or less weekday evenings and weekends between Center City and Chestnut Hill East.

All other regional rail lines would have service operating seven days a week with service every 30 minutes or less.

Streetcars

Route 101/102 would both operate seven days a week every 15 minutes or less, for a combined service of every 7 minutes or less between 69th Street Terminal and Drexel Hill.

Click the link below for my idea of which sections of the regional rail lines should operate every 15 minutes or less.
The downtown section I did not draw a line as it is a given it would operate frequent with all these routes meeting there.
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?source=s_d&saddr=&daddr=S+15th+St%2FPA-3%2FPA-611&hl=en&geocode=%3BFVagYQIdqhGF-w&mra=mr&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=40.004476,-75.137558&spn=0.261931,0.439453&z=11&msid=102251676755671311847.0004618f837488e2fd406

Enjoy.

[winxs]

You didn't mention the R2 Warminster line. That also needs to have more frequent service. Instead of one 4 or 5-car train every hour, they could have one two-car train every 20 mins. I hate it when I miss my train and have to sit at the station for an hour until the next one.

[theWatusi]

He also didn't mention either side of the R5.

:no:

[Justin10000]

I agree with Mr. Toronto that the Regional Rail needs to be improved. But 15 minute service is a stretch. Start with 30 minutes, and increase it later.

With the subway, your "idea" is already in place.
I checked the latest schedule from SEPTA, and the subway runs every 10 minutes during the weekend, with 15 minute late night service. That's not that shabby, and it ends at around 12:00. AND there is 24 bus service along the line, and it runs every 10-15 minutes until the subway opens.
During the weekdays, the Market line runs every 4-6 minutes. This is quite good.
Are you going to take credit for a schedule that as been in place, since August?

I am only looking at the Market line, but to me, the service is excellent.

[miketoronto]

I thought the subway ran less often than that. Or maybe that is the Broad Street line that does. I will check.

The 15 minute service I reccomended was not for all lines. It was only for the ones I listed, and those particular sections serve mostly the inner city of Philly, close in suburbs, or major destinations like universities, etc. That is why I said to have 15 min service, because they would basically be rapid transit lines. The regional rail network in the inner city and inner burbs is more like rapid transit where people can walk to stations. It is not these mega stations with 5,000 parking spots like Toronto's suburban stations.

[Gordo]

Instead of one 4 or 5-car train every hour, they could have one two-car train every 20 mins.

I would assume that this would cost at least 75% more than the current service. The vast majority of the operating cost of any US transit system is labor, not the energy to run the trains. Two trains equals double the labor (or at least close to it) of one train, even if the trains are half as long.

[theWatusi]

Mike, looking at a map of a transit system 500 miles away does not make you qualified to say which lines need what frequency of service.

[volguus zildrohar]

I've tried telling him that.

There are some at-grade options for light rail in the city, zilfondel. Many arterial streets outside Center City can take the loss of a lane or two for a ROW. The issue is downtown, where many streets are barely wide enough for the traffic they have now. The idea of a transitway was toyed with in the 70's along Chestnut Street downtown and it failed - particularly as traffic increased in Center City. There is an unused underground ROW just north of Center City that SEPTA purchased a few years ago that it already tried and failed to launch a service for with federal funds. Light rail can handle the capacity and I think it would be a good alternative for swiftly getting people around the city - essentialy a better alternative to the bus for key locations such as Manayunk, parts of the Northeast and Southwest Philly. It would also make sense for the Sports Complex as another transit choice to compliment the Broad Street Subway which is often at crush after games.

[Crawford]

Does the Broad Street Spur still operate? What's the story with that?

[Parkway]

The Broad-Ridge spur is was supposed to be part of a loop much like Chicago, but it, along with small sections of tunnel under Arch street were all that ever got built.

[Justin10000]

The Broad Ridge spur still operates.

Here is the schedule for the Broad St. Line:

http://www.septa.com/service/sched/pdfs/BSL.pdf

The schedule says "Local Trains operate every 8 Minutes until 6:30, and then 10-12 minutes after. Then a night bus that run every 10-15 until the subway opens.

For me, when I visited Philly last year, was that SEPTA operated fairly well, but was lacking something. I just cannot put my finger on it, though. I am not a fan of the fare structure, either.

[Marv95]

Mike dude, you're not increase midday regional rail service to every 10-15 minutes when most suburbanites are inside at work. lol. And what about equipment? You know how much things like these cost? And some of these lines run on Amtrak, What would they say?

NYC has several subway lines that don't run every 7 minutes on weekends(even on weekdays, ie SIR, G, J, M, V & W). What makes you think Philly would? The Spur barely gets riders when they run about every 20 minutes in the middle of the day, and that's a small train; 3-4 cars? 10 minutes on weekends is enough.

EDIT: I'm impressed they added express Saturday service on the BSL.

[miketoronto]

It is not just about commuters. More frequent regional rail service would make it easier for students and others to get around.

Suburban rail in other world cities operate every 15 minutes or less including in little Adelaide, Australia which only has a metro pop of 1 million.

You have to beef up the transit service or people will not use it. Actually the fact that only just over 100,000 riders a day are carried on such a large regional rail network, shows that the system is not capturing as many people as it could.

Another issue with SEPTA is their bus routes. If you look at a map it is very easy to see that the suburban bus routes are really only designed to get poor people from inner city Philadelphia to suburban work destinations and malls. The routes are not designed at all for suburbanites to use to get around to access rapid transit.

[seaskyfan]

You have to beef up the transit service or people will not use it. Actually the fact that only just over 100,000 riders a day are carried on such a large regional rail network, shows that the system is not capturing as many people as it could.


You have to have enough service so that people are wiling to depend on transit, but I wonder if demand would ever call for commuter rail running at 15 minute intervals during off peak times. I used to ride the R5 (many years ago) and it ran at 30 minute intervals throughout the off peak hours (usually a two car train) and it would be pretty empty. If people aren't using it between stations on the Main Line - which is essentially a linear city with most retail, restaurants, and institutions within a short walk of the train stations - I wonder if any suburban corridor would need that kind of frequency?

[hammersklavier]

There are a lot of things SEPTA needs to do. I will now organize them into priorities:

1. Build the Boulevard extension already! Of all the proposed Philadelphia subway projects, the Roosevelt Boulevard extension is the oldest, most dearly needed, and most important. Currently, there are only two rail spines in the Great Northeast: the R7 to Trenton and the R8 only to Fox Chase. The Boulevard subway (which could run down Bustleton instead, at least to the Boulevard) would provide a key heavy rail spine throughout the Northeast the bus routes could easily feed into; as rapid transit, it would be much faster than buses running down this key spine. In addition, the projected ridership of the Boulevard Subway would be higher than most currently developed projects elsewhere in the nation!
2. Replace the bus routes with trolleybus routes. Currently, Philadelphia has three (3) trolleybus routes, all radiating out from Frankford Transportation Center. In order to be energy-efficient, we must expand this trolleybus system by expanding the amount of trolleybus routes are available. My plan is to do this in three (3) phases: I. Convert all bus routes emanating from Frankford into trolleybus routes; II. Convert all bus routes running from Fern Rock and 69th Street into the city into trolleybus routes; and III. Convert the remaining bus routes in the city into trolleybus routes. Exceptions would include the route running predominately down Broad (C) for traditional aesthetic reasons and the routes following Interstates--like the Schuylkill and I-95--for utilitarian reasons. Also note predominately suburban routes (e.g., the 94 or 96) would remain bus routes.
3. Expand the Regional Rail System to make it more modern: Three (3) key expansions are called for here. The R3 to Wawa, already in development, will allow commuters to commute to the Wawa campus via rail; an extension of the R6 Cynwyd to the Schuylkill would provide a park-and-ride right off that expressway, increasing its ridership and decreasing congestion around the Belmont Curve; and lastly, an extension off the R2 Warminster to Newtown. This route would restore rail service to a town that needs rail service, and would follow the Trenton Cutoff from the R2 to the currently disused Newtown Branch ROW; the reasons this route needs to be done in this fashion are two (2): I: The good folks of Bryn Athyn consistently disapprove of installing overhead electrification in their borough, which has killed Newtown rail restoration several times in years past, and II: the original Newtown Branch ROW crossed the New York Branch (R3) at grade in bottomland; installing a flyover would be prohibitively expensive. Restoring this route following the ex-PRR cutoff would be the cheapest way to do so (as the Trenton Cutoff, being an active freight main, eliminates the need to grade an entirely new route).

Less important rail and transit expansions number into litany, but some include: extending the 10 to Overbrook (and St. Joe's?), trolley restoration of the 23 along Germantown Ave, trolley restoration along 23 ROW in CC (north to Temple?), trolley restoration along the 56, possible conversion of R7 CHW or R8 CHE to 3rd rail feeding into the BSL, West Philadelphia Streetcar Loop, Light Rail along Delaware Ave, Rail Restoration to Reading, Rail Restoration to Quakertown and thence Bethlehem, PATCO/NJ Transit rail expansion in South Jersey, either (a) feeding into the PATCO tunnel or (b) feeding into Walter Rand with River Line-type DMUs, rail service to the Art Museum and Zoo via the City Subway, a Center City loop subway, a MSE/RBE connection (where Bustleton meets the Boulevard), 100 extension to KoP, etc. etc.

[zilfondel]

^ map? I'm curious, being an outsider.

[Don098]

Wow, three pages already?

[Crawford]

You have to beef up the transit service or people will not use it.

Mike, this simply isn't a high priority in the U.S. If more people cared, the politicians would make it a higher priority. Excepting a few cities, everyone has cars.

You're approaching low transit usage as a problem to be solved. It isn't generally considered a problem in the U.S.; it's considered a consequence of affluence and the country's freedom of personal mobility.

And Philly has decent ridership. No more than four or five cities have better ridership.

The routes are not designed at all for suburbanites to use to get around to access rapid transit.

When you're saying "rapid transit", I assume you mean Septa Regional Rail. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a suburban Septa station that didn't have an accompanying parking lot.

Why take the bus when you can drive to the station?

[volguus zildrohar]

There are a lot of things SEPTA needs to do. I will now organize them into priorities:

1. Build the Boulevard extension already! Of all the proposed Philadelphia subway projects, the Roosevelt Boulevard extension is the oldest, most dearly needed, and most important. Currently, there are only two rail spines in the Great Northeast: the R7 to Trenton and the R8 only to Fox Chase. The Boulevard subway (which could run down Bustleton instead, at least to the Boulevard) would provide a key heavy rail spine throughout the Northeast the bus routes could easily feed into; as rapid transit, it would be much faster than buses running down this key spine. In addition, the projected ridership of the Boulevard Subway would be higher than most currently developed projects elsewhere in the nation!


This is the big argument, ridership. The trip from virtually any point north of Cottman Avenue to Center City is too long and indirect if you aren't near Regional Rail. This had to be the intention of several of the spur routes proposed for the system.

2. Replace the bus routes with trolleybus routes. Currently, Philadelphia has three (3) trolleybus routes, all radiating out from Frankford Transportation Center. In order to be energy-efficient, we must expand this trolleybus system by expanding the amount of trolleybus routes are available.

I don't see this happening for the simple reason of the additional infrastructure (i.e. catenary).

This might work as a better option for BRT which would make sense as a replacement for routes that are less about getting people around neighborhood to neighborhood as feeding people to a rapid transit route. Several routes that run out of Frankford fit the bill as well as others like the 48 and 32, in particular.

3. Expand the Regional Rail System to make it more modern: Three

There are gaps to be sure. The Regional Rail system I think is logistically better assembled than virtually any other in the country thanks to the Center City Connection. Even New York currently doesn't have so seamless a system. What amazes me is that SEPTA gives it so much attention as opposed to CTD but there are simple improvements that seem to languish while stations are renovated - which seems to be the extent of their concern for CTD.

Less important rail and transit expansions number into litany, but some include: extending the 10 to Overbrook (and St. Joe's?), trolley restoration of the 23 along Germantown Ave, trolley restoration along 23 ROW in CC (north to Temple?), trolley restoration along the 56, possible conversion of R7 CHW or R8 CHE to 3rd rail feeding into the BSL, West Philadelphia Streetcar Loop, Light Rail along Delaware Ave, Rail Restoration to Reading, Rail Restoration to Quakertown and thence Bethlehem, PATCO/NJ Transit rail expansion in South Jersey, either (a) feeding into the PATCO tunnel or (b) feeding into Walter Rand with River Line-type DMUs, rail service to the Art Museum and Zoo via the City Subway, a Center City loop subway, a MSE/RBE connection (where Bustleton meets the Boulevard), 100 extension to KoP, etc. etc.

All good ideas but here's an interesting addition: Last winter when PATCO held public forums about the waterfront transit plan, there was information regarding other parts of the city lacking adequate transit connections and one of the things noted was a lack of a direct connection between the Art Museum Area and University City/30th Street.

[theWatusi]

#1 on my wish list is the restoration of the former Reading Bethlehem Branch and resumption of intercity rail to Allentown and Bethlehem.

[PhillyRising]

When you're saying "rapid transit", I assume you mean Septa Regional Rail. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a suburban Septa station that didn't have an accompanying parking lot.

Why take the bus when you can drive to the station?

The parking lots at many regional rail stations are a joke. They fill up early and anyone trying to park there and use the system after 9am is going to be SOL.

They are currently expanding the parking here in Exton by adding another 180 parking spaces. However, SEPTA runs many R5 trains to and from the city at Malvern where there is sparse parking. Exton is the next stop but we don't have the level of service that Malvern does. It's stuff like that makes people wonder who in the world makes the decisions at SEPTA. Even the late night trains only goes to Malvern.

[Parkway]

Water front light rail could be an effective transit alternative in south philly not only for the water front but also for the adjcent neighborhoods between Front to Third or Fourth and Market to Morris. Neighborhoods like Queen Village, Pennsport and with better connections Society Hill between South and Spruce. All that being said I still think that the Boulevard subway or a subway up 29th to Manayunk via the parkway would both have a higher ridership per dollar return than anything on the water front.

[pwp]

Water front light rail could be an effective transit alternative in south philly not only for the water front but also for the adjcent neighborhoods between Front to Third or Fourth and Market to Morris. Neighborhoods like Queen Village, Pennsport and with better connections Society Hill between South and Spruce. All that being said I still think that the Boulevard subway or a subway up 29th to Manayunk via the parkway would both have a higher ridership per dollar return than anything on the water front.

Yup, I agree on that too. The line which could be built down Delaware Ave would be an effective means of connecting the South Philly neighborhoods who are at a distance from the el or Broad St Line.

A subway up 29th to Manayunk passing through the Parkway would be an enoromous value to the city. One, it would enable tourists to more quickly access Museum Row and two, it'd create an important bridge between CC and Manayunk - something which RR does not address to the extent it's needed.

[miketoronto]

When you're saying "rapid transit", I assume you mean Septa Regional Rail. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a suburban Septa station that didn't have an accompanying parking lot.

Why take the bus when you can drive to the station?

It is normal for suburbs to have feeder bus service to regional rail stations. The map below shows a neighbourhood that has more than one bus route to a commuter rail station. And the station in that map is located about one hour out of the city, and right on the edge of farmland.
Further, bus routes like the one in the map help teens access local college and uni campus', malls, etc.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3452/3241938575_8a75eda41d_o.jpg

[volguus zildrohar]

It's funny how South Philadelphia is a bit out of the loop for rail transit. More SEPTA train routes run to New Jersey than South Philadelphia. To say nothing of the fact that on game days the BSS is quite packed, during SEPTA strikes there isn't even a Regional Rail option as people in much of the rest of the city have.

I've also never pointed out current bus routes that I believe have the capacity for rail. The entire western half of the city east of the Schuylkill needs something. Two heavily used bus routes - the 17 and 33 - operate there to South and North Philly, respectively. A Parkway-29th Street line would be great but also maybe a route from South Philadelphia as well.

[hammersklavier]

Volguus, when I suggested converting the bus routes in the city to trolleybus routes, I was explaining a position which I have espoused for some time, and which was originally suggested by someone on Philly Blog (zur). I am aware catenary is expensive, but the position I take is that we could extend catenary over a few (3-5) routes a year in four phases (first centered on Frankford, then on 69th, then Fern Rock, and lastly catching remaining bus routes that don't stop at any of these three places), thereby keeping costs associated with this down.

There are a few reasons I disagree with BRT. 1. The streets in Philadelphia are, by and large, too narrow to support the dedicated bus lanes necessary for BRT, and 2. BRT is still buses, which still emit a number of pollutants that electrified systems do not; as to the complaint this is simply solving a problem in the "out of sight, out of mind" way, I submit that if SEPTA were to power trolleybus catenary with alternative energy credits, like wind power, there would be no fossil fuel consumption whatsoever related with this plan.

Finally, need I remind you that as of 60 years ago, most of the city was blanketed by catenary? Tearing it all down in favor of diesel buses was one of the least wise transit moves of all time.

That said, the large-scale range of BRT, as opposed to the limitations catenary-bases systems like trolleys and trolleybuses, does have its own particular advantages, namely, the ability to connect far-flung suburbs into rail hubs. A BRT route along Sumneytown Pike from Green Lane to Lansdale or North Wales during peak hours would, for example, increase transit connectivity among the more far-flung suburbs; so would a BRT from Yardley to King of Prussia (i.e., transferring the Cross County Metro idea from rail to bus).

You are indeed right that the Regional Rail system is one of the best-connected regional commuter systems in the country, but that doesn't mean there aren't gaps. Only about half of all the routes in the Philadelphia area were ever electrified, and since SEPTA has no diesel commuter rail, it cannot service the other half.

If you are interested in lack of Art Museum connectivity, may I draw your attention to the erstwhile "thunda" and "eldondre" plans on Philly Blog? Eldondre proposes that the PA PATCO extension not be the waterfront light rail, but rather a service up to 33rd and Girard via the City Subway, connecting 1. CCP 2. Art Museum, and 3. Zoo with the greater Philadelphia system (also involving a connection with the BSL).

[pwp]

The term "At Grade" light rail means running on the surface of the planet.

They can be within their own right of ways, in their own dedicated lanes in streets, or in mixed traffic lanes in streets.



Thx for the explanation but I'm still confused. If At Grade light rail can run within subways, then how do they differ from actual subways?

[volguus zildrohar]

pwp. An at-grade heavy rail subway train only works on a separate ROW from regular street traffic. You couldn't run a subway train on the street with cars. The term subway actually means the tunnel, not the vehicles that use them. There are several differences between subway trains and light rail - pasenger capacity being the biggest among them.

hammer, I should have added that I envisioned BRT as running with hybrid vehicles. Also, I imagine any option as being higher capcity which is something I equate more with BRT in my mind than any other type of non-rail surface transit - at least as I've seen it in other cities.

[hammersklavier]

Volguus, my opinion is that BRT has the capacity to handle higher capacities elsewhere because they have their own dedicated travel lanes whereas here in Philadelphia we only have space on selected roads (like Lehigh or Washington) to handle BRT lanes. Otherwise, Philadelphia roads are just too narrow and what would be in theory BRT weakens to plain old busing.

Also: Hybrid buses = good
Electric buses / trolleybuses = better
Electric trolleys / light rail = best

One of the reasons why I'm proposing replacing our buses with trolleybuses on a city-wide basis (starting from the periphery and moving into the core) is that by constructing the catenary system now we can have partial infrastructure in place to restore rail along selected routes (remember most of our bus routes were originally trolley routes). Trolleys have yet a higher capacity than buses or trolleybuses (but not quite as high as BRT), and light rail higher still, higher than even trolleybuses. But light rail needs both rail and electric infrastructure, and if built with too much street running, as with BRT, the capacity gains caused by purpose-built right-of-way would be erased.

The eventual goal, of course, would be to have heavy rail routes running from the urban peripheries into the city core, along with core and secondary downtown circulators; (trolley)bus circulators feeding the heavy rail routes; commuter rail routes running from the suburban periphery to the core; circulation buses between the commuter rail and other notable suburban "destinations" (e.g. malls); and BRT between the rail hubs and communities inaccessible by rail (like Green Lane or Collegeville). This is a complex system that is only fragmentally built out now, and in its entirety would allow for multiple variant routes from the rail hub to the city core (a good example of what I'm looking for is the two routes to Center City from Lansdale T.S.: either straight down the R5 or along the 96--a route that functions in parts like a circulator, mostly around Lansdale and Norristown, and in others like BRT, mostly along DeKalb Pike--to Norristown T.C., where I could either 1) take the R6 straight down, or 2) take the 100 to the MFL). That is, the BRT should be peripheral to the normal functioning of the system, primarily hub-to-hub transport, but essential to the secondary functioning of the system, i.e., if a major accident or bridge washout leaves a rail line unusable for an x amount of time.

As for Art Museum / U.C. connectivity, my answer: build a bridge! A multiuse-trail bridge across the Schuylkill between the Spring Garden and Vine Street bridges that directly connected with the ECG/Schuylkill Banks on one side and 30th Street Station on the other would solve this transportation issue most elegantly.

Edit: I just found this interesting blog entry (http://urbandirection.blogspot.com/).

[theWatusi]

HS, where in the world would would put a BRT lane along Sumneytown pike to green lane?

Don't you think that starting out with traditional bus service would make more sense?

Lansdale TC, Merck at West Point, Harleysville, Green Lane, Red Hill, Pennsburg, East Greenville would be a logical route. There could be a connection at Harleysville for a Trappe, Collegeville, SKippack, Harleysville, Souderton, Telford bus.

[volguus zildrohar]

hammer, I never expanded on my notion of higher capacity BRT connecting to currently existing rapid transit - I do indeed picture it on major arteries. I picture it as a happy medium between the infrastructure that should be there and improving the transit options that do exist wherever it would be installed. The choices for streets gets dicier the closer you get to Center City, obviously, but that's not the idea. Swiftly and efficienty moving people from a rapid transit stop to another destination is the important part of the equation that's lacking with SEPTA as it is now.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with trolleybuses. I just don't have faith that the additional infrastructure wouldn't be seen as an impediment to whomever seems to plan things around here. Anything that involves more than tires on asphalt seems to scare the hell out of the people with the money and the authority for laying out Philadelphia's transit network.

[winxs]

HS, where in the world would would put a BRT lane along Sumneytown pike to green lane?

Don't you think that starting out with traditional bus service would make more sense?

Lansdale TC, Merck at West Point, Harleysville, Green Lane, Red Hill, Pennsburg, East Greenville would be a logical route. There could be a connection at Harleysville for a Trappe, Collegeville, SKippack, Harleysville, Souderton, Telford bus.

Don't stop it at Telford. Take it on into Sellersville and Perkasie, then curve it southeast along PA152 where it can meet the R5 in Chalfont. If you were really ambitious, it could become a big loop linking up with the new 202 Parkway they just started building between Doylestown and just beyond Montgomeryville, and then run along Dekalb Pike back to Sumneytown and return to Harleysville.

Of course, that is probably a good hour and a half trip. Would there be enough of a market for it to make it viable?

[Justin10000]

It is normal for suburbs to have feeder bus service to regional rail stations. The map below shows a neighbourhood that has more than one bus route to a commuter rail station. And the station in that map is located about one hour out of the city, and right on the edge of farmland.
Further, bus routes like the one in the map help teens access local college and uni campus', malls, etc.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3452/3241938575_8a75eda41d_o.jpg

I wouldn't really call it a "feeder" service. I used to live around there, and most GO patrons drive to the station, rather than take the bus.
It does help Brampton coordinate transfers between routes, though.

[theWatusi]

Don't stop it at Telford. Take it on into Sellersville and Perkasie, then curve it southeast along PA152 where it can meet the R5 in Chalfont. If you were really ambitious, it could become a big loop linking up with the new 202 Parkway they just started building between Doylestown and just beyond Montgomeryville, and then run along Dekalb Pike back to Sumneytown and return to Harleysville.

Of course, that is probably a good hour and a half trip. Would there be enough of a market for it to make it viable?

I was thinking if you made the route too long, it would require too many buses to keep a decent service frequency. The idea of stopping at Souderton and Telford is it could connect to a Lansdale-Quakertown train.

[hammersklavier]

Wats, as a country highway, Sumneytown Pike (like Harleysville Pike) is, on average--especially north of Kulpsville--about two lanes wider than what it need be. An efficient utilization would be to use what is currently just the emergency shoulder as a BRT lane with the buses merging back into traffic around breakdowns, should they occur.

In addition, this BRT, unlike traditional busing, would only have limited-stop service: starting from Lansdale T.C., it would head up Main/Welsh to Ralph's Corner (stop 1), turn left on Forty Foot to Kulpsville (stop 2), turn right onto Sumneytown, head past Mainland (stop 4) to Henniong's (stop 5), on to central Harleysville (stop 6) and the shopping center on the north side (stop 7) (where it may connect with a BRT route heading out of Souderton towards Skippack), and then on up into more rural areas, with a stop at Sumneytown proper, where the pike crosses the Unami Creek (stop 8), and then to Green Lane (stop 9). From there, it may either terminate or head up Gravel Pike--Rt. 23--to Red Hill (stop 10) and thence Pennsburg (stop 11), at which point it terminates. The reason why I say BRT would be best along this route is that north of Kulpsville the environment becomes noticeably rural but that around the Green Lane area there is a small concentration of population. I believe that the wide margins of country highways are suitable for intermediate-to-long distance BRT routes.

Rail restoration to Quakertown would also offer BRT termini at Souderton/Telford, Sellersville/Perkasie, and Quakertown as well. BRTs from this line could access places like Trumbauersville, Nockamixon S.P., Dublin, Point Pleasant, Pennsburg, as well as other places. The point is to use BRT to provide transit access to citizens living in smaller towns far enough away from the rail mains that regular rail transit is not an option. Some of these routes can even have feeder buses running into them--for instance, a bus circulator from Mainland up Wambold (i.e., past Hagey Coach and Asher's) to Allentown through Elroy (past the beef place) on to Franconia, left onto Harleysville, past the NE Ext., and south by Keller's into Harleysville, where it terminates at the Harleysville/Sumneytown intersection.

[theWatusi]

Wats, as a country highway, Sumneytown Pike (like Harleysville Pike) is, on average--especially north of Kulpsville--about two lanes wider than what it need be. An efficient utilization would be to use what is currently just the emergency shoulder as a BRT lane with the buses merging back into traffic around breakdowns, should they occur.


Sumneytown Pike West (geographic North) of Kulpsville is only two lanes, save for a few intersections with turning lanes, and Green Lane proper which has street parking. In most places (especially between 113 and Gerryville Pike, there is practically zero shoulder, let alone a breakdown lane.

Where the heck would you put a BRT lane?

[SoundOfPhiladelphia]

hammer, I never expanded on my notion of higher capacity BRT connecting to currently existing rapid transit - I do indeed picture it on major arteries. I picture it as a happy medium between the infrastructure that should be there and improving the transit options that do exist wherever it would be installed. The choices for streets gets dicier the closer you get to Center City, obviously, but that's not the idea. Swiftly and efficienty moving people from a rapid transit stop to another destination is the important part of the equation that's lacking with SEPTA as it is now.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with trolleybuses. I just don't have faith that the additional infrastructure wouldn't be seen as an impediment to whomever seems to plan things around here. Anything that involves more than tires on asphalt seems to scare the hell out of the people with the money and the authority for laying out Philadelphia's transit network.

As a Bucks-Co-ian, I think a better use of money would be to simply improve the feeders to the existing subway and the subway itself. Keep in mind, both the MFL and BSS combined have less ridership than Atlanta's subway. Not to diss ATL, but when such a car-centric city passes you on heavy rail ridership like that, there is a serious problem. Brining back old trolleys on the 60, 56, 29, 79, 3, 18, 6, 52, etc would go a long way into making the subway more generally accessable. You're never going to get a subway dug under any of the numbered streets anyway for numerous reasons....

I live out in Langhorne, and while I feel the pain of CTD riders, it would be nice if SEPTA would actually make a half decent attempt at trying to provide transit service out here. Montgomery and Bucks Co service is woeful (Delaware Co is somewhat better) and Chester's is non-existant. Regional Rail is okay but could be more frequent.

But issue #1 is actually providing safe and reliable service. The subway beatings last year set SEPTA's public image back a couple milleniums among those who don't ride, and simply confirmed the attitudes of those at 1234 Market for those who do (like yours truly). I can't tell you how wonderful it is to go up to a token clerk to ask for a schedule and get drama becuase you had the audacity to ask her to do her f--king job. This attitude is rampant among the front end workers. Taking some NYer friends on the BSS is an embarresment. 15 minutes btw trains on a midday? Trains in Manhattan run more frequent at 2am:rolleyes: .

Sorry for the rant, I rather ride than drive, but SEPTA is a sewer. Let us not lie to ourselves....

[volguus zildrohar]

It's more than just a matter of the subways being accessible. They also have to go places people want to be. Other than Center City and the Sports Complex the system doesn't really take people to many places that have much drawing power outside their immediate neighborhoods. This goes back to my old point of how different a city this would be if even 1/3 of the originally planned subway system was built. As it is now the subway connects you to something that will take you to Main Street or Franklin Mills. Atlanta's numbers I can see as being higher because the system grew long after the city was well established and planners could put the routes where they'd work best. MARTA is also nearly double the size of SEPTA's system.

[CentralGrad258]

Just wanted to bring a little ray of sunshine to this thread: http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20090206_Jill_Porter__Married_on_SEPTA__In_love__and_on_the_right_track.html

Scroll to the bottom for the comments, to witness classic Philadelphia optimism.

[miketoronto]

They should extend the Market-Frankford line to Oxford Valley Mall via Franklin Mills and Neshaminy Malls.

[justremember]

Let me just say that the people on this thread are 10x more knowledgeable than me when it comes to improving our transit system. That said, I do want to make a few comments.

First, I feel like a lot of people (in general, not just here) feel that our transit system is already quite extensive considering the Regional Rail lines. However, as has been pointed out, those lines really just connect suburbs and some neighborhoods with Center City. I think the other problem is that RR is almost a whole separate transit system to itself. It has a separate (and higher) fee system, and there's no transferring from subway/el/bus/trolley to RR lines. This can limit use of RR and make it too much of a hassle if a trip requires, for example, taking a train and a bus.

On a separate note, it was personally frustrating for me to watch the recent construction on Germantown Avenue, thinking about how much money was being spent and how much people were being inconvenienced, knowing that originally there was supposed to be a subway line to Northwest Philly. Of course, there are probably more important transit projects than that (i.e. extending BSL south & north & into the NE), but the selfish side of me wishes that we had a subway line into Northwest Philly, and that money had been spent on that instead of new cobblestones and light posts.

Finally, I think this discussion is great, but I think a future step needs to be to put all of these ideas together prioritize them, and put pressure on the decision makers to pursue them. The current economic situation highlights this. If SEPTA and our current city leaders were focused on the real transit needs of the city, they would be using President Obama's stimulus package as an opportunity to seek federal dollars for the purpose of expansion. We should be looking at a triple-win of expanding transit, creating jobs, and stimulating economic growth in places that transit is expanded to. Instead, we're getting more of the same. We have to not just think about what to change, but also discuss how to change it.

[CentralGrad258]

Let me just say that the people on this thread are 10x more knowledgeable than me when it comes to improving our transit system. That said, I do want to make a few comments.

First, I feel like a lot of people (in general, not just here) feel that our transit system is already quite extensive considering the Regional Rail lines. However, as has been pointed out, those lines really just connect suburbs and some neighborhoods with Center City. I think the other problem is that RR is almost a whole separate transit system to itself. It has a separate (and higher) fee system, and there's no transferring from subway/el/bus/trolley to RR lines. This can limit use of RR and make it too much of a hassle if a trip requires, for example, taking a train and a bus.

On a separate note, it was personally frustrating for me to watch the recent construction on Germantown Avenue, thinking about how much money was being spent and how much people were being inconvenienced, knowing that originally there was supposed to be a subway line to Northwest Philly. Of course, there are probably more important transit projects than that (i.e. extending BSL south & north & into the NE), but the selfish side of me wishes that we had a subway line into Northwest Philly, and that money had been spent on that instead of new cobblestones and light posts.

Finally, I think this discussion is great, but I think a future step needs to be to put all of these ideas together prioritize them, and put pressure on the decision makers to pursue them. The current economic situation highlights this. If SEPTA and our current city leaders were focused on the real transit needs of the city, they would be using President Obama's stimulus package as an opportunity to seek federal dollars for the purpose of expansion. We should be looking at a triple-win of expanding transit, creating jobs, and stimulating economic growth in places that transit is expanded to. Instead, we're getting more of the same. We have to not just think about what to change, but also discuss how to change it.
Great post, it's frustrating how myopic SEPTA can be sometimes. They have slowly began to improve, but there is such a long way to go. The fact that there are literaly zero concret plans for system expansion is downright despiriting. As far as Germantown ave, can we at least get the 23 trolley going? The infrastructure is already there, you don't need alot of upgrades to get the thing running, just get it going already!

They should extend the Market-Frankford line to Oxford Valley Mall via Franklin Mills and Neshaminy Malls.
I hope that's some kind of a joke.

[Capsule F]

I think that we should re-examine those Atlanta numbers, I find it hard ot believe. I believe philly has 25 miles of heavy rail? Or is it way less, like 13? Either way our density per track miles destroys Atlanta's.

[volguus zildrohar]

miketoronto - no. Just, no.

justremember - The RR is more or less a separate entity. SEPTA oversees all public transit in SE PA and essentially operates four divisions - City Transit, Victory and Frontier (suburban bus and light rail routes) and Regional Rail. New York's MTA is laid out in a similar manner - city subways and buses run as a different part of MTA from the LIRR or Metro-North.

The problem with getting anything done with the system is the fact that there is too much bureaucracy to make big things happen. To get federal money for anything there are ten federal hoops to jump through, there is community input, there is overcoming SEPTA's congenital inertia, the issue of worker's unions and issuing contracts to say nothing of navigating the byzantine jungle of building anything larger than a rocking chair in the city of Philadelphia. A determined leader is an essential element to making such a thing happen but even with money so many other things have to operate in concert to make such a thing happen in this city. We've just gone for so long here without doing anything huge that the concept is totally foreign. There are tons of ideas out there for Philadelphia but where Philadelphia has ideas other cities have actions. They don't just plan - they build and some of them have governments and agencies no less ungainly than ours. But where other places just have had to deal with impotent municipal governments or lethargic planners or transit agencies that don't care or unions that decide who builds what and how, Philadelphia has had to deal with all of that at once. The last era of great building in this city occurred before the Great Depression and other than Penn Center, there really hasn't been anything of a grand, sweeping scale that ever ended up being executed. I wish I knew what the reason was.

[volguus zildrohar]

I think that we should re-examine those Atlanta numbers, I find it hard ot believe. I believe philly has 25 miles of heavy rail? Or is it way less, like 13? Either way our density per track miles destroys Atlanta's.

Philadelphia's system is 25.2 route miles including the Woodland Avenue subway.

I'm inclined to believe Atlanta's numbers because of all the places MARTA goes. Hartsfield, Buckhead - it goes to more places people in Atlanta are going. The El and Broad Street Subway - there are plenty of destinations they don't go directly to or even conveniently connect to. To say nothing of the fact that it's virtually not marketed by SEPTA at all to tourists (or anyone else) and is difficult to use. Also, Atlanta's population (and by extension, subway riders) is growing. Philadelphia's is not.

[urbanalexandria]

Want to learn about transit systems across the world, this is a great site.

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/phil/philadelphia.htm

[theWatusi]

They should extend the Market-Frankford line to Oxford Valley Mall via Franklin Mills and Neshaminy Malls.



about as useful a suggestion as building a maglev train from Gilbertsville to New Hope

[kilbride102]

Why stop at Oxford Valley? Why not go to the Quaker Bridge Mall in Trenton?

[pwp]

But issue #1 is actually providing safe and reliable service. The subway beatings last year set SEPTA's public image back a couple milleniums among those who don't ride, and simply confirmed the attitudes of those at 1234 Market for those who do (like yours truly). I can't tell you how wonderful it is to go up to a token clerk to ask for a schedule and get drama becuase you had the audacity to ask her to do her f--king job. This attitude is rampant among the front end workers. Taking some NYer friends on the BSS is an embarresment. 15 minutes btw trains on a midday? Trains in Manhattan run more frequent at 2am

Yeah I'd have to agree with you across the board here. As a daily rider, SEPTA needs to invest more money in safety and customer service, hopefully the forthcoming stimulus package will enable that, however from what I've seen they have no priority of doing so. In two or three years SEPTA is planning on implementing an electronic payment system for each stop/station, this would be a good point to turn their service around.

Maybe we should complain more to someone at City Hall? Ha.

[zilfondel]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3452/3241938575_8a75eda41d_o.jpg


CREDITVIEW RD?!?!?!??!



You have got to be joking.

Reason #5,289 why the suburbs suck! :yuck:

[miketoronto]

Its named that because of the Credit River that runs near that road. :)

The reason I said to extend the subway to the malls is because it serves two of the regions major malls, and also covers a route that is covered by a 24 hour bus line. It also brings the subway to some of the most critical suburbs of the city in the region, and might help tie the region together.

[justremember]

The RR is more or less a separate entity. SEPTA oversees all public transit in SE PA and essentially operates four divisions - City Transit, Victory and Frontier (suburban bus and light rail routes) and Regional Rail. New York's MTA is laid out in a similar manner - city subways and buses run as a different part of MTA from the LIRR or Metro-North.

Point taken. But I still think that such a structure detracts from the overall transit situation in the city. Ideally, it would all operate as one system, and I think if it did, more people would use the system. I'm not sure if that's a realistic hope, just something I've observed.

The reason I said to extend the subway to the malls is because it serves two of the regions major malls, and also covers a route that is covered by a 24 hour bus line. It also brings the subway to some of the most critical suburbs of the city in the region, and might help tie the region together.

Having grown up by the Willow Grove Mall, I can see where you're coming from with this. There are people who would utilize such a line, but I think potential projects within the city should have higher priority. I think the need is greater, and there will be a greater return on investment. But I think that using transit to bring city and suburb closer sometime in the distant future is a worthwhile goal, just lower on the list than some other goals.

[volguus zildrohar]

It really is effectively one system. It has the same governing body and operates under the same name. I may have overreached with my original answer. Each part of SEPTA is simply differentiated because they're physically separated but that's about it. However, I'm not sure that a single overseeing authority is best. I do believe Chicago's CTA operates independently of Metra, the city's commuter rail system. Perhaps it simply depends on who's running it and how well.

[SoundOfPhiladelphia]

It really is effectively one system. It has the same governing body and operates under the same name. I may have overreached with my original answer. Each part of SEPTA is simply differentiated because they're physically separated but that's about it. However, I'm not sure that a single overseeing authority is best. I do believe Chicago's CTA operates independently of Metra, the city's commuter rail system. Perhaps it simply depends on who's running it and how well.

As a rail fanatic, some retiered SEPTA heads told me it's set up the way it is becuase if the Suburban counties had their way, they'd trash suburban service and leave reverse-communting Philadelphian's in a bind.

Philly is very segregated on almost every level between ever increasing poverty in the center of town with steps in wealth until you reach the old money/upper class on the edges of the built-out area. Most areas outside the city and parts of DelCo do not want transit becuase of their fears of the "wrong people" becoming accessable to their neighborhoods. Ignorant? yes. but that seems to be the view. Even if MikeToronto's vision was remotley realisitic, the patriarchal views of the citizenry will shoot that bird straight out of the sky.

At the end of the day, SEPTA is a horror to ride. The only thing they do go the distance in is graffiti cleaning (<i>Are you listening, NYC</i>?). Other than that, the people on Market St do. not. care. 90% of the ridership is people who have no choice, so therefore, this is what you get.

But this goes back to the Philadelphia mentality in general. People seem not to believe in their city, themselves, the future, or really anything outside the Eagles. Bitter, angry, and close minded....

[pwp]

As a rail fanatic, some retiered SEPTA heads told me it's set up the way it is becuase if the Suburban counties had their way, they'd trash suburban service and leave reverse-communting Philadelphian's in a bind.

Philly is very segregated on almost every level between ever increasing poverty in the center of town with steps in wealth until you reach the old money/upper class on the edges of the built-out area. Most areas outside the city and parts of DelCo do not want transit becuase of their fears of the "wrong people" becoming accessable to their neighborhoods. Ignorant? yes. but that seems to be the view. Even if MikeToronto's vision was remotley realisitic, the patriarchal views of the citizenry will shoot that bird straight out of the sky.

At the end of the day, SEPTA is a horror to ride. The only thing they do go the distance in is graffiti cleaning (<i>Are you listening, NYC</i>?). Other than that, the people on Market St do. not. care. 90% of the ridership is people who have no choice, so therefore, this is what you get.

But this goes back to the Philadelphia mentality in general. People seem not to believe in their city, themselves, the future, or really anything outside the Eagles. Bitter, angry, and close minded....

Regardless that these barriers exist today, at some point they'll need to be overcome as the City is changing and will - in my opinion - face an inevitable situation where an influx of new, young residents demand more transit options. America is obviously undergoing a paradigm shift with regard to the "green movement" as the younger generations flock back to the city eager to utilize public transit, etc. This will in effect cause two outcomes both intertwined: 1) Increased demand for housing close to public transit and 2) higher public transit ridership rates.

This dynamic will one day - as long as this paradigm shift exists - invariably lead to a need for an improved and expanded mass transit system. Understandably SEPTA will be reactive to this situation, however it'd be wonderful to see proactivity on this issue in the form of planning for additional lines, system changes, blah blah blah.

In addition, as I mentioned before on this thread, I believe an additional line would spur development along that particular corridor, in turn creating even more demand, ridership, etc.

Thoughts?

[theWatusi]

In addition, as I mentioned before on this thread, I believe an additional line would spur development along that particular corridor, in turn creating even more demand, ridership, etc.

Thoughts?

If this was true, North Broad Street should be booming all the way up to Nedro Street. Aside from Temple, this is not the case at all.

[pwp]

If this was true, North Broad Street should be booming all the way up to Nedro Street. Aside from Temple, this is not the case at all.

I agree to an extent but look at where the majority of development occurs in Philly, along Market, Broad and those areas immediately adjacent to them. Yes I understand they are the major arteries in the city, however they also happen to be situated above rapid transit.

Regarding North and South Broad, development can occur only at the speed at which the local economy will support. And it is developing along N. Board as well - just not at a rapid rate. If you notice, Temple almost now stretches the entire length between their main campus and the hospital/medical campus.

[volguus zildrohar]

SoundOfPhiladelphia, there are some tough old truths to your words. A lot of people resent newcomers in this city - gentrification brings its evils but...better that than withering on the vine.

It will take seismic shifts in public thinking and leadership and nothing else to get Philadelphia moving because this city has lived the way it's lived for so long. I think the current generation will have to reach old age before things really look and feel like they're finally working because progrss is a hard road to hoe under ideal circumstances. Here, in this city and state, mountains must be moved for even the simplest differences.

[Justin10000]

SoundOfPhiladelphia, there are some tough old truths to your words. A lot of people resent newcomers in this city - gentrification brings its evils but...better that than withering on the vine.

It will take seismic shifts in public thinking and leadership and nothing else to get Philadelphia moving because this city has lived the way it's lived for so long. I think the current generation will have to reach old age before things really look and feel like they're finally working because progrss is a hard road to hoe under ideal circumstances. Here, in this city and state, mountains must be moved for even the simplest differences.

If progress is booting people out of their homes, just to "improve" an area, then there is problems.

[volguus zildrohar]

There's a strange balance to strike.

There's dying/stagnating tax bases versus people that are actually willing to occupy places their parents or grandparents abandoned 40 years ago. There are people who occupied neighborhoods and cities that white flight left for dead, who weathered everything race riots, crack and deindustrialization threw at them - people who chose to remain. And then there are the people who still live in such places because they haven't the means to live elsewhere and are often the type of people who require more from social services than they contribute in terms of taxes. This is devil's advocate time. Something, in some way, will have to give. It's ugly because it isn't entirely fair. Who does the market care about? Who do city governments care about?

[Don098]

Its named that because of the Credit River that runs near that road. :)

The reason I said to extend the subway to the malls is because it serves two of the regions major malls, and also covers a route that is covered by a 24 hour bus line. It also brings the subway to some of the most critical suburbs of the city in the region, and might help tie the region together.

Mike, I'm just curious. Have you ever been to Philadelphia?

[hammersklavier]

http://www.planphilly.com/node/7761

[SoundOfPhiladelphia]

Regardless that these barriers exist today, at some point they'll need to be overcome as the City is changing and will - in my opinion - face an inevitable situation where an influx of new, young residents demand more transit options. America is obviously undergoing a paradigm shift with regard to the "green movement" as the younger generations flock back to the city eager to utilize public transit, etc. This will in effect cause two outcomes both intertwined: 1) Increased demand for housing close to public transit and 2) higher public transit ridership rates.

This dynamic will one day - as long as this paradigm shift exists - invariably lead to a need for an improved and expanded mass transit system. Understandably SEPTA will be reactive to this situation, however it'd be wonderful to see proactivity on this issue in the form of planning for additional lines, system changes, blah blah blah.

In addition, as I mentioned before on this thread, I believe an additional line would spur development along that particular corridor, in turn creating even more demand, ridership, etc.

Thoughts?


Subways, while awesome, do not create success and prosperity. People Do.

Philadelphia, as a city, has enormus potential. However, that potential will not be realized until the city genuinley faces it's social demons: (Greedy Unions, Handout mentality, Blatant yet unspoken racism (both Black and White), fear of the new and the different, Seeing ignorance as "authenticity", etc...)

Taxes, SEPTA, Crime, The schools, etc all emulate from the "Block" ideology. As long as my "Block" is okay, then the rest of the city can burn. No foresight.

[wanderer34]

If this was true, North Broad Street should be booming all the way up to Nedro Street. Aside from Temple, this is not the case at all.

Regarding North Broad St, what do you exactly mean by "booming"??? Do you mean Starbucks should be on every main corner from Girard to Olney Aves??? Do you mean upscale boutiques should line every main shopping district on Broad St???

The stretch of North Broad from Girard to Cheltenham Aves has always been working to middle class. Nothing ritzy about it, except the mansions, some of it still lining North Broad St since it's heyday as Millionaires Row. Other than that, it was working to middle class since it was even mostly white.

Below Girard Ave, it's evolving into someting different , with the Met finally being renovated from the outside, condos popping out, infill taking place outside of the mile-long radius of Broad St, and all the anemities like restaurants, boutiques, galleries, and other specialty shops.

Temple University is a special case since from Cecil B moore to Susquehanna, then from Allegheny to Erie along Broad St, are building being built left and right for the use of Temple. Outside of Broad about a half a mile away is a different story, as it's mostly residential. This can be a mixed-income, diverse community rather than just a predominately black one. Also the houses that are planned to be built should blend within North Philly (read: rowhomes), and none of the detached, pre-fab crap that's popping left and right.

[kilbride102]

Regardless that these barriers exist today, at some point they'll need to be overcome as the City is changing and will - in my opinion - face an inevitable situation where an influx of new, young residents demand more transit options. America is obviously undergoing a paradigm shift with regard to the "green movement" as the younger generations flock back to the city eager to utilize public transit, etc. This will in effect cause two outcomes both intertwined: 1) Increased demand for housing close to public transit and 2) higher public transit ridership rates.

I think that people overrate the "green movement" and youth "eager to utilize public transit". Once people start to get older and make more money these things will fall by the wayside. They will want bigger cars or god-forbid SUVs to take the kids to soccer practice or dance class. Will they want their kids to play in streets or in "safer suburban playgrounds"? When kids and family come into play, priorities change. Also they will realize just how much money is taken out of their paychecks in taxes and just how little they get in return. Will the idealism of late teens and early twenties continue when the realism of late twenties and thirties smacks them in the face? We will see.

[SoundOfPhiladelphia]

I think that people overrate the "green movement" and youth "eager to utilize public transit". Once people start to get older and make more money these things will fall by the wayside. They will want bigger cars or god-forbid SUVs to take the kids to soccer practice or dance class. Will they want their kids to play in streets or in "safer suburban playgrounds"? When kids and family come into play, priorities change. Also they will realize just how much money is taken out of their paychecks in taxes and just how little they get in return. Will the idealism of late teens and early twenties continue when the realism of late twenties and thirties smacks them in the face? We will see.


I don't think people will care much about "green", but I do think that the social isolation the suburbs give off will not be seen as a positive as it was in the past. Manhattan is going through a massive upper-class baby boom and I don't think this is simply a short term anaminoly(sp).

The central part of cities (Inner Paris, Central London, Manhattan, The Loop, Westside LA, DC, Center City, etc...) will become hubs for upper-class parents who could possibly take back the school system. Philadelphia is trying to radiate out the CC gentry zone into the River Wards, West and South. I think this will continue to grow, but the current inhabitants will only push into more outer nabes (Like NW and NE), cuasing them to go into decline.

So I do think urban living will have more appeal, but the subrubs aren't going anywhere either. Those parents with money for private schools will move into the city, but the middle-working class will continue to pine for the outer reaches of Bucks and Chester Cos.

[theWatusi]

Regarding North Broad St, what do you exactly mean by "booming"??? Do you mean Starbucks should be on every main corner from Girard to Olney Aves??? Do you mean upscale boutiques should line every main shopping district on Broad St???

Well I was thinking of something other than abandoned buildings, chicken joints, and check cashing places. Aside from the blocks dominated by Temple, North Broad (above Spring Garden) is a shit hole.

[pwp]

I think that people overrate the "green movement" and youth "eager to utilize public transit". Once people start to get older and make more money these things will fall by the wayside. They will want bigger cars or god-forbid SUVs to take the kids to soccer practice or dance class. Will they want their kids to play in streets or in "safer suburban playgrounds"? When kids and family come into play, priorities change. Also they will realize just how much money is taken out of their paychecks in taxes and just how little they get in return. Will the idealism of late teens and early twenties continue when the realism of late twenties and thirties smacks them in the face? We will see.

I think this will all depend on the local education system. If the schools shape up and prove to be a decent option for middle-class, young couples, then yes urbanism will be here to stay. IMO.

[wanderer34]

Well I was thinking of something other than abandoned buildings, chicken joints, and check cashing places. Aside from the blocks dominated by Temple, North Broad (above Spring Garden) is a shit hole.


In my book, as long as the structure is intact (abandoned is OK, since it can be easily renovated), there's great potential. I'm not looking for North Philly (Tioga-Nicetown, Logan, Olney, West Oak Lane, Fern Rock, etc.) to be the "next big hip neighborhood"), nor am I looking for an expansion of Center City all the way into Lehigh Ave. I'm just looking for a stable, intact neighborhood. The businesses always reflect the clientele, which is why you see a lot of the chicken shacks and the check cashed places, but them again I also see a lot of the same places in South Philly, and parts of the NE, typical white hoods, so they don't bother me as much as seeing an empty lot of what used to be a very sturdy building or rowhome turned into rubble!!! Things need to change for the better!!!

[volguus zildrohar]

Well I was thinking of something other than abandoned buildings, chicken joints, and check cashing places. Aside from the blocks dominated by Temple, North Broad (above Spring Garden) is a shit hole.

North Broad Street has its fair share of such establishments but it actually wouldn't make my list of 'places not to be ever'. North of Allegheny, particularly, it's mainly stable working class and North of Olney, Broad Street has changed very little physcially from the time it was a Jewish enclave. Also, North Broad happens to be among the longest retail corridors in the city which, while not glamorous, is there and has kept the stretch from devolving completely. I'd say the worst pockets are at Girard and Erie Avenues. Otherwise, it really isn't that bad.

[SoundOfPhiladelphia]

North Broad Street has its fair share of such establishments but it actually wouldn't make my list of 'places not to be ever'. North of Allegheny, particularly, it's mainly stable working class and North of Olney, Broad Street has changed very little physcially from the time it was a Jewish enclave. Also, North Broad happens to be among the longest retail corridors in the city which, while not glamorous, is there and has kept the stretch from devolving completely. I'd say the worst pockets are at Girard and Erie Avenues. Otherwise, it really isn't that bad.


Same could be said for Kensington Ave (Frankford El). In most cities, it's not the main drag through a hood that falls farthest, but the pocket blocks and side streets that make an area the hood.

Broad itself may not be a total wash, but many of those sidestreets are, and give the whole of North Philly the ambiance it has. Upper North Philly may be somewhat more decent than lower North, but to standard American definitions it isn't middle class or prosperous. Cheltanham Ave isn't a pleseant place to be after 7-8pm most nights and the area around Broad/Olney subway doesn't give off any less of the "vibe" other stops south of there do.

[wanderer34]

North Broad Street has its fair share of such establishments but it actually wouldn't make my list of 'places not to be ever'. North of Allegheny, particularly, it's mainly stable working class and North of Olney, Broad Street has changed very little physcially from the time it was a Jewish enclave. Also, North Broad happens to be among the longest retail corridors in the city which, while not glamorous, is there and has kept the stretch from devolving completely. I'd say the worst pockets are at Girard and Erie Avenues. Otherwise, it really isn't that bad.

I think Girard Ave in North Philly, from Fishtown to the zoo looks good, even with a few empty lots here and there, but past the zoo in North Philly, it looks horrible, especially between 48th and 52nd St. Even after 52nd St, most of the rowhomes look worn down and not maintained. Personally, in a few years, Parkside will become gentrified because I don't see how those buildings on Parkside Ave can go to waste. Just put some replica infills on the lots, and it will come back!!!

Most of Erie Ave is pretty stable from Kensington Ave to the tracks on Old York Rd. Like Girard Ave, a few lots between 5th and Old York, but I believe that the Hispanic community made it stable. but past the tracks, it's a damn shame!!! :( Huge lots, and when you go past Broad St, it get's worse. It's not really the lots and some of the abandoned buildings that get to me, but the pre-fab crap they're currently building, and they're too damn small at that. WTF would want to live there??? And look at what it's replacing??? Some of the grandest rows the city has!!! Check out the 1300 block of Hunting Park Ave. And this is near Temple Hospital. :yuck: The city needs to spend more money renovating abandoned buildings and similaar looking infill rather than fund this Section 8 crap. I know this has nothing to do with transit, but just wanted to add my two cents.

[hammersklavier]

Your geography is confusing Wanderer...
1. Parkside is in West Philadelphia (all the parts of Philadelphia west of the Schuylkill River are called "West Philly").
2. By the sounds of it, you're describing a westward trip down Erie away from the Hispanic neighborhoods, but if you are, you do realize that Broad St. comes first and then the tracks? BTW, the massive-scale lots you're describing, esp. if they're concentrated near the train tracks (and IIRC the CSX line follows Erie for a time west of the SEPTA bridge) would most likely be abandoned industrial lots. Looking west from said SEPTA bridge I can see several gargantuan abandoned warehouses just begging for conversion...

[hammersklavier]

The Reading Extension study's out! Yipee!

http://planning.montcopa.org/planning/cwp/fileserver,Path,PLANNING/Admin%20-%20R6%20Extension%20Study/R6%20Study%20FINAL%202009%20(9%20MB).pdf,assetguid,677b4f66-2afe-4d3c-a011d4a21fcb1506.pdf