[bornagainbiking]

I was in Toronto Tues. and saw one of those Sobey's Fresh or mini market. What a great idea for our downtown. We have many moving here and some essentials are lacking.
So I emailed Sobey's and expressed interest even though I live in the East end but enjoy the downtown.
Here is their response;


"Thank you for contacting Sobeys Customer Care and expressing interest in seeing one of our stores in your neighbourhood. Customer feedback is an integral part of our business and we welcome all suggestions from our customers.

Sobeys has been a part of many communities for over 100 years, and we continue to explore opportunities in all markets. Your request has been forwarded to our Real Estate Department for review.

Again we thank you for your interest and suggestion."

So maybe now is the time for downtown residents to lobby hard. Email away...

[emge]

i'll send one.. that's one thing i'd love to see.

though i don't think it would happen, the Metro brand would also likely be a successful format downtown.

[MattJelly]

I've thought the same thing, that downtown could use a supermarket for those of us who live in the core- since the Barn closed a few years ago, there hasn't really been any sort of 'supermarket' per se, in the megastore sense.

On the other hand, there are some options- while I definitely can't do all my grocery shopping in one stop, I'm able to find just about everything I need in and around the downtown core. Whatever you can't find at the Farmer's Market, you can find at Reardon's, Denninger's, the vegetable and fish markets on James North (and Adam's on James S.). I get that some people are just looking to zip in and out of one place that has everything they need, but part of me actually prefers finding it all in a few different places. It's also better to support the locals, I definitely wouldn't want to see a Sobey's move in and shut down Reardon's, or take any business away from the Farmer's Market. Y'know?

[ue]

Hammy should get one of these.

I've got to tell you coming from Edmonton (2nd city to get Urban sobeys) they are really a neighbourhood revitalizer. You'd be glad to have one. They usually go in neat areas and instead of the typical sobeys they have selection that caters to the community as well as all the regular stuff. As well as a bistro and wine bar - or here that is. They're an attractive place to have in a downtown.

[SteelTown]

Welcome to the forum Matt.

[astroblaster]

kresges building/ delta bingo = sobeys? i've always liked that idea

welcome matt jelly.

[astroblaster]

i dont think downtown currently has the population to support both sobeys and the market/indie stores.

so it comes back to raising the density and population of the core, especially the greyfields of beasley, and this won't happen unless we can stimulate economic development and lure young professionals to live and work in the core.

so its pretty simple; to get a sobeys, we just have to reverse a few decades worth of urban decay.

[matt602]

I think a downtown sobeys would work. Definitely.

[Millstone]

I really wish Loblaws would open a 24 hour something, everything I like grocery-store wise is usually a house brand of theirs like President's Choice

[FRM]

i agree with astroblaster in that the downtown core isn't big enough (popuation wise) to support a sobey's or something similar...i think if we had enough people one of these companies would already be scouting and planning to move in (correct me if i'm wrong if anyone knows if any of these chains are actually looking at the core). but i believe if we get some more aprtments and condos popping up they will come in right away.

[ue]

^what's dt hamiltons population?

edmonton's is 10,000 but we have 50-80,000 in nearby communities.

[vid]

Edmonton's downtown has only 10,000 people? Thunder Bay's two downtowns and their immediate peripheries have more than 12,500 people. Edmonton's downtown area should have at least 50,000 people.

[ue]

^Calgary is even worse like 5,000-7,000.

Anyhow, the Oliver district, just immidiately west of downtown is home to lots of highrise residential and is often considered apart of downtown like how it flows into dt. It has 20,000. The Northedge communities of Central McDougall and Queen Mary Park have what 30,000 together? Maybe 40? Then McCauley and Boyle have about 20,000. Maybe 30. So downtown and immidiate surroundings which make the bulk of the residential are 80,000.

Downtown Edmonton had high vacancies for towers of residential so there was a lot of filling in in the boom. It was 5,000 before. Now we're getting a lot of new construction but most are still going to Oliver because it has a higher population so more community amentities. I assume after all construction and filling up empty is all done about 12-15K.

[matt602]

Hamilton's downtown population is actually incredibly high because it's fairly dense. I don't have any numbers but I remember it being posted at some point.

[thistleclub]

kresges building/ delta bingo = sobeys? i've always liked that idea

Delta Bingo is an example of the stakes of recession-era real estate and an unfortunate one, but given the scale of downtown Hamilton, an express supermarket in the heart of the CBD seems problematic. Judging by Google Maps (http://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=grocery+stores+toronto&fb=1&split=1&gl=ca&ei=1esoSoWBMZaWMcXiwNAJ&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=image&resnum=1), Sobeys has Toronto outlets at Roncesvalles, Bloor, Yonge and Front (two near the U of T campus -- we might have to wait on that sort of development (http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/577957)) but little if anything inside what most people would consider the heart of that city's core.

A larger grocery store would be a better use of the space than a bingo hall, but not the ideal use of what should be a prize site. The building would be levelled by the next tenant anyway, so why not dream bigger? One way that makes sense to me is as a smaller facility on the ground level on a residential development. (Seems like a tall order, but they stock both chickens and eggs, so maybe we're covered.) Probably just as well to drop a store to the northeast, say at John and Wilson, where you're a block further from the Farmers Market and a block closer to the Barton FoodBasics. But as Astroblaster mentioned, demography might be something that a chain investor might factor in. Example: plot the Toronto Sobey's locations (http://www.unitedwaytoronto.com/whatWeDo/reports/povertyByPostalCode.php).

The Barn was downtown, yes, but its commitment was strongest during its years as an independent. A&P had different priorities.

[flar]

Downtown Hamilton has over 60,000 residents easily. The problem from the perspective of grocery and other stores is that a lot of them aren't big spenders.

Plus there are grocery store near the fringes of downtown, two on Main, and others on Dundurn and Barton.

[omro]

Hamilton has tons of these Hasty Marts selling ailses of naff all.

Tesco Metro, clean and full of fresh produce and decent products. Most with nutritional value!

But something with a similar format would be ideal for downtown as they aren't big stores.

[sofasurfer]

It's also better to support the locals, I definitely wouldn't want to see a Sobey's move in and shut down Reardon's, or take any business away from the Farmer's Market. Y'know?

Which is exactly what Tescos and its ilk have been doing to lots of downtown areas in England... although that's more been to do with the rise of 'out of town' supermarkets that are more north American sized, and then killing off the high streets. But Tesco Metro (and competitors' equivalents) were the next line of attack.

BUT... at the same time, I can see some kind of value in downtown Hamilton having at least a couple of smaller Sobeys, Metro, or suchlike so that downtown is seen to be capable of attracting and sustaining these kinds of stores. Personally, I'd like to see a Fortinos (aren't they local? Or, at least, originate as a Hamilton operation?) but as someone else posted, I am a fan of PC stuff.

(@Omro, slightly OT... is it me, or does Fortinos seem like a more affordable Waitrose? :))

[sofasurfer]

Downtown Hamilton has over 60,000 residents easily. The problem from the perspective of grocery and other stores is that a lot of them aren't big spenders.

What abour downtown workers? This is what the Tesco Metro brand is all about in the UK - serving these folk with (relatively higher-margin, faster-moving) convenience stuff for at-work lunches and things to take home for a quick dinner... plus a pared-down line of products across the board, actually not to different to variety stores but with familiar branding.

Of course, retail culture here might be quite different. Although I'm sure I recall Tesco entering the US market in the last couple of years. Can't remember details, but it was totally new branding, not sure if they were going to follow the same biz model of out of town stores AND urban downtown convenience locations.

Even so, lots of brownfield sites downtown, a canny retailer could put a larger size store in one of those (maybe even parking if the site's already got it?) - I'm not convinced this is something that'll happen in the immediate term, but I could see this happening in the future.

[ue]

Downtown Hamilton has over 60,000 residents easily. The problem from the perspective of grocery and other stores is that a lot of them aren't big spenders.

Plus there are grocery store near the fringes of downtown, two on Main, and others on Dundurn and Barton.


Is that downtown proper? Is your dt core large in area? Ours is smaller, but like I said, some neighbourhoods could easily double as extensions of downtown here I'd say.

[FairHamilton]

Is that downtown proper? Is your dt core large in area? Ours is smaller, but like I said, some neighbourhoods could easily double as extensions of downtown here I'd say.

That's not downtown proper (at least not how I'd define downtown), it's including surrounding areas. I think Flar was including neighbourhoods like Durand that have a high density in his number.

[FairHamilton]

What abour downtown workers? This is what the Tesco Metro brand is all about in the UK - serving these folk with (relatively higher-margin, faster-moving) convenience stuff for at-work lunches and things to take home for a quick dinner... plus a pared-down line of products across the board, actually not to different to variety stores but with familiar branding.

What about downtown workers? Unfortunately, we are in Hamilton, and I don't know what else to say.

I'm close with Paul Reardon and we were talking about downtown office workers at dinner last night.

He was lamenting that he sees all the office workers bee-lining to their cars right past his store at the end of the day. They are so bound and determined to get out of downtown, beating rush hour traffic, and get back to the suburbs nothing can even slow their step.

Actually, lately I'm getting concerned that Reardon's won't be on King William any longer when his lease comes up next........... :(

[Jon Dalton]

I also heard that the owner of that building wants to demo it. I hope not, that would leave one business left on the street and two people I know out of homes. Jelly have you heard anything about that?

In other grocery news, Adams has been sold. The building hasn't changed hands, only the business. The takeover happens next week.

[markbarbera]

Tesco opened Fresh & Easy in the US a couple years back, mainly in California and Arizona. Similar to Tesco Metro with a heavy emphasis on prepared foods.

I would love have a something like a Tesco Metro here. I'd even welcome their Express format over some of those nasty Big Bee variety stores plaguing this city.

[Rusty van Reddick]

^Calgary is even worse like 5,000-7,000.

Huh? For the five communities that make up "downtown" Calgary, the total is closer to 15,000:

Downtown Commercial Core: 7887
Downtown West End: 2634
Downtown East Village: 2316
Eau Claire: 1638
Chinatown: 1281

And then adjacent to downtown is the Beltline, which has 17,818. All from 2008 civic census. More than 70,000 live within 3km of the Calgary Tower.

[ue]

Huh? For the five communities that make up "downtown" Calgary, the total is closer to 15,000:

Downtown Commercial Core: 7887
Downtown West End: 2634
Downtown East Village: 2316
Eau Claire: 1638
Chinatown: 1281

And then adjacent to downtown is the Beltline, which has 17,818. All from 2008 civic census. More than 70,000 live within 3km of the Calgary Tower.

The east village and Chinatown aren't apart of downtown proper are they? According to 2006, there is almost 7,000 people between 14 St, 3 St, Eau Claire, and the Railyards.

[FairHamilton]

I also heard that the owner of that building wants to demo it. I hope not, that would leave one business left on the street and two people I know out of homes. Jelly have you heard anything about that?

In other grocery news, Adams has been sold. The building hasn't changed hands, only the business. The takeover happens next week.

Don't know about demoing the building, but the building owner has offered to sell it to Reardon as well.

[flar]

That's not downtown proper (at least not how I'd define downtown), it's including surrounding areas. I think Flar was including neighbourhoods like Durand that have a high density in his number.

60,000 is about how many residents are within about a ten minute walk to the centre of downtown, which would include high density areas like Durand and Corktown.

[ue]

^If that is the case, it is close to 100,000 in Edmonton.

[flar]

^If that is the case, it is close to 100,000 in Edmonton.

Very doubtful considering the neighbourhoods surrounding downtown Hamilton are denser in population than any neighbourhoods in Edmonton.

[bigguy1231]

I remember there being a Loblaws in the basement of Effort Square, formerly Terminal Towers. It was a nice central location although not too visible.

[ue]

^^

10,000 downtown
20,000 Oliver
10,000 Central McDougall
05,000 Queen Mary Park
05,000 McCauley
07,000 Quarters
01,000 Rossdale
10,000 Riverdale
02,000 Spruce Avenue

So 70,000 instead. Sorry. Edmonton has a lot more high rises in Oliver, which accounts for it's high population. It's weird really, just outside that 10 minute walk radius, there are neighbourhoods with higher populations, and still central, which would make a 20 minute walk.

10,000 Alberta Avenue
05,000 Glenora
02,000 Cromdale
03,000 Crestwood
05,000 Westmount
06,000 Inglewood
03,000 Westwood
10,000 Strathcona
10,000 Garneau

That's 54000.

So if you include that, and I know it doesn't go by your measurement...124,000. But wow, that is interesting, there is a higher population 10 minutes within downtown in Hamilton.

[bigguy1231]

^

So if you include that, and I know it doesn't go by your measurement...124,000. But wow, that is interesting, there is a higher population 10 minutes within downtown in Hamilton.


Hamilton is a very compact city. Lots of people in a fairly small area. Before the suburbs were amalgamated with city 10 years ago we had a population of 300,000 living within 60 or so square kms.

[ue]

^Yeah I've noticed that. Not too much suburbia outside of Burlington for you guys. How come?

[flar]

^Yeah I've noticed that. Not too much suburbia outside of Burlington for you guys. How come?

There's suburbia all around Hamilton, just not as much relative to cities that grew a lot in the last few decades (like Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, etc.)

Hamilton is rustbelt. The city grew and thrived in an earlier era. It has suffered immensely over the years with the decline of traditional North American industry.

[ue]

^Yeah there is suburbia, but just looking at a map, you can tell most of the land is still the old neighbourhood.

Would it be accurate to call it the Cleveland of Canada? You're right it is rustbelt. Ontario is weird, it seems Michigan, Ohio, New York, Illinois, Wisconsin, and New England all in one.

Hamilton deserves a rebound.

[bigguy1231]

^Yeah I've noticed that. Not too much suburbia outside of Burlington for you guys. How come?

Have you ever been to the area? Outside of the 2 original large urban areas, Toronto and Hamilton everything is a suburb.

[ue]

^No. Just basing it on what I've seen, doesn't LOOK like too many suburbs. or at least compared to the other big cities.

[bigguy1231]

^No. Just basing it on what I've seen, doesn't LOOK like too many suburbs. or at least compared to the other big cities.

We did have alot suburbs up until 10 years ago when we basically annexed them. Now all thats left is Burlington. But they don't like to think of themselves as a suburb. They are too good for us, or at least they like to think that.
Areas, that are becoming suburbs include Brantford, Grimsby and Caledonia. Lots of people from Hamilton moving to those areas, but they still work here.

[ue]

Suburbs don't have to be seperate citys. I'm just looking at the sprawl. The older looking neighbourhoods seem to take up much of the geography, where modern suburbs are 2nd, they're still present just not as much it seems. But I'm comparing this to every other major Canadian city, not the Rustbelt which would be better.

[LikeHamilton]

Hamilton is a very compact city. Lots of people in a fairly small area. Before the suburbs were amalgamated with city 10 years ago we had a population of 300,000 living within 60 or so square kms.

To be exact, Hamilton was 42 sq mi (108.8 sq km) with a population of 321,000 on amalgamation.

[realcity]

^ That's sick density for Canada. Had to be in top 5?

Now we're aiming for a density that'll be lower than Mississauga.... Our target is to be the absolute minimum density as outlined in the _Places to Grow Act_. Thanks Hamilton Council for being so ambitious... striving for the minimum. Let's see 50% is a passing grade... let's shoot for 51% and see how we do.

Hopefully Queens Park does what they did with the "Stimulus/Infrastructure Funds" and say "No way", this is what you're going to do.

[flar]

^ That's sick density for Canada. Had to be in top 5?

Even with Burlington dragging it down, Hamilton is the third densest city in Canada (essentially tied with Vancouver).

population density (/km2) of "urban areas" as defined by Statistics Canada:

Toronto 2718
Montreal 1978
Hamilton 1763
Vancouver 1720
Ottawa 1681

(for EE: Edmonton is 1009 persons/km2)

For further comparison, just the old city of Hamilton is 2950 using LikeHamilton's numbers above and that includes the massive area used by industry)

[ue]

Doesn't surprise me too much. Alberta is brutal on a list like that. I'm sure Winnipeg is higher than us too.

As sad as it is, it's like comparing Pittsburgh (Hamilton) to Houston (Edmonton). It's brutal. Calgary is very similar I know, slightly higher in density or slightly lower. We have a horrendous sprawlculture here.

Pretty much aside from Vancouver, all the big cities with high density are east of Manitoba. It's funny cause all these cities started out with traditional density, now look at us.

Not to brag, but at least we have more old neighbourhoods to work with than Calgary. Also we have a pretty big skyline, and since our last mayor was elected the focus on urbanity has been great, as we essentially went Liberal with the whole thing...which is great. I'm tired of conservative Alberta.

[omro]

(@Omro, slightly OT... is it me, or does Fortinos seem like a more affordable Waitrose? :))

It seems the top of the tier of supermarkets here that I've been in, certainly one of the largest, cleanest and with the greatest variety. Went to the one at Eastgate briefly. I've not been in a supermarket that seems nicer. I wasn't in there long enough, but if it has tons of its own brands and they are as decent or perhaps even more so than named brands, then it could well be a Waitrose/M&S equivalent in the tiering system.

Next down here seems to be Metro - have been in the ones on Barton and in Westdale.

Below that Food Basics - have been on both of the ones on Barton.

Then Price Chopper - have been on the one on Barton.

Then No Frills - only been in the one on Main/Tisdale which seemed totally dirty and foul to me.

I was never really a Waitrose shopper, as they weren't really in my part of London, there wasn't the money for it. Neither was M&S. But I'd always get M&S stuff for lunches when I was in town.

[mic67]

Fortinos is all the things that you say it is, with one exception some (many - enough) things are 30% more expensive than the exact same product at no-frills. But the stores are always stocked on the shelves, very clean and have a significant variety. But no-frills does huge volume and have difficulty keeping up with stocking the shelves, so much so that I have to go more than once a week to get all that I wanted. Many times I felt it was like the old Soviet Union.

No-frill is a franchise of Loblaws and fortinos is owned by loblaws.

Price Chopper is IGA or Sobeys and their brand of product - no name version- is awful compared to presidents choice or no-frills brand.

Hey Omro, what happening to the house you bought? Have you been to Toronto? What do you think _ the center of the Universe? What about the regular transport link to Toronto? The only think worst than the rail link to Toronto is the Toronto Transit Commission itself and virtually all those that work for it. What is your opinion of Hess Village - go on a Sat. night?

mic67

[realcity]

Price Chopper is Sobeys? no s**t

No Frills = Fortinos/Loblaw

Food Basics = ?

[matt602]

Food Basics = Metro

I think.

[FairHamilton]

Food Basics = Metro

I think.

Correct.

[omro]

Hey Omro, what happening to the house you bought? Have you been to Toronto? What do you think _ the center of the Universe? What about the regular transport link to Toronto? The only think worst than the rail link to Toronto is the Toronto Transit Commission itself and virtually all those that work for it. What is your opinion of Hess Village - go on a Sat. night?

Sooooo much work still to be done on it.
No yet been to Toronto. It's on my to-do list, but just haven't had the time to go yet.
I believe that the need for a regular transport link to Toronto, as this city feels a little isolated in terms of rail from other cities.
Haven't yet been to Hess Village, once again an issue with time and money.

[mic67]

Omro, maybe you could give us some fresh perspective with tradespeople, supply houses and the like with your house in the "moving to Hamilton" thread?

Taking the express bus at the right time of day - only1 hour - isnt too bad, but when not and when you have to bus to burlington then train and the reverse on the way back, with Toronto only, what -only some 50 Km away ought to prove to anyone how pathetic this transport link is, embassing by any world standard.

The condition of the track is lousy, writing long hand is almost impossible,etc.

Hey you can go to Hess at no cost, this Sat was a show without going to any venue, just being there - you can check that out for free!! Best say around midnight - max people.

I think Absinthe (Accross from the Candy Bar at George and Queen st) has no cover? (didnt when I went this Fri) and beer is $4.25? I have got plenty of reviews to write up, as I have been busy on the dance and music scene.

mic67

[adam]

Be sure to visit the bars on Augusta street.

[MattJelly]

I also heard that the owner of that building wants to demo it. I hope not, that would leave one business left on the street and two people I know out of homes. Jelly have you heard anything about that?


I know the building is for sale for a cool Million, which seems pricey to me. I won't get into all the reasons I don't think it's really worth that, but I've seen buildings of the same size and condition go for much less- only a few doors down too. A Million is definitely more than market value, although I think the owner is just trying to recoup for what she's put into it over the years. She does post all of her frustrations on our front door (next time you have a sandwich at Reardon's, check out the door right beside it, you'll see what I mean), so I don't feel too weird passing along that info- seems like owning the building has been more trouble than it's worth. That said, I don't know enough about her situation to judge that really.

If someone did buy it for 1 million, I'm sure it would be moreso for the plot of land, not for the building. So, yeah I'd say it's in danger of being demo'd at some point. Seems if we get an NHL team, a lot of downtown will be at risk of being torn down to make way for parking and new development. It's probably the only reason I'm of two minds on the NHL prospect- it would definitely bring investment into the downtown if it works. It just better fucking work. ;)