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waterloowarrior
Feb 11, 2009, 5:10 AM
here's a news article to get things started


NCC planning local version of Times Square (http://centretownnewsonline.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=690&Itemid=127)
Thursday, 05 February 2009
By Nina Soboczynski and Philip Ling
Centretown News


The eastern gateway to Centretown is set to receive a multi-million dollar facelift under a strategic plan steered by the NCC to enhance the national capital’s commemorative attractions.

A series of preliminary sketches unveiled at a National Capital Commission public meeting on Jan. 22 offers the first glimpse of development ideas for the Sussex Drive/Rideau Street/Colonel By Drive intersection.

The redesign of the intersection is part of a two-gateway revamp that will also see major changes to the Portage Bridge approach on the downtown’s west side.

The changes are meant to enhance the city’s attractions and create an urban environment that’s more friendly to tourists and pedestrians.

“It’s the missing piece to make this puzzle beautiful,” says NCC chief executive Marie Lemay.

With an estimated 20,000 pedestrians passing through the Sussex-Rideau intersection each day, the goals of the redevelopment are to create a destination for people to stop while improving the movement of pedestrians and traffic.

Officials have listed Times Square in New York City, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris and London’s Trafalgar Square and Piccadilly Circus as examples of what they are trying to achieve in Ottawa’s downtown core.

Creating a gathering place to promote and support human interaction is a central goal, NCC officials says. The aim is that citizens will use the space to meet for lunch and incorporate it into other daily activities.

“The sketches are based on a number of scenarios,” says the NCC’s Diane Irwin. “In order to create a wonderful space, what might it look like?”

The plans are far from complete and only represent the beginning stages of the project, officials says, adding that many planning obstacles need to be overcome and consultations held before any work begins to take place.

One issue already raised by some NCC board members is the substantial grade problem at the site – sloping ground with streets converging at awkward angles.

“Our next step is to talk to the City of Ottawa and Public Works, since they own the Conference Centre,” says Irwin, “(then) hammer out an agreement and define timelines.”

A planning document discussed at the meeting referred to “potential construction within the next five years.”

The brief report noted that the intersection is “an important entry point into the capital core” and that the proposed redesign will be reviewed as part of a consultation among NCC, federal and municipal officials, area property owners, BIA representatives and citizen groups.

The intersection is one of the prime locations identified in a 2006 study of Confederation Boulevard as being an “eminent landmark” in the capital’s development and deserving of a major public commemoration.

The finished project will join the Canadian War Museum on LeBreton Flats and the Peacekeeping Monument near the U.S. Embassy as examples of notable downtown attractions enhancing the tourist experience along Confederation Boulevard, the ceremonial route straddling the Ottawa River and encompassing several major streets in downtown Ottawa and Gatineau.

NCC officials have tentatively discussed a “dominant vertical element” to be built at the intersection and a water feature as another desirable component, noting that the site should be “celebratory, interactive and educational.”

“Everyone is unanimous that there’s change needed at this location,” says Lemay.

Local residents and tourism officials are voicing general support for the planned redesign.

Shawn Menard, president of the Centretown Citizens’ Community Association, says a number of his members have been following the project.

He says that it would be nice if the corners were transformed to a public space that will attract tourists while also promoting walking and alternative forms of transportation.

While the redesign should accomplish those goals, he says the preliminary sketches “come across a tad tacky.”

Ottawa Tourism, meanwhile, says the NCC’s plan to redevelop the intersection is “definitely welcomed.”

“I think it’s a great idea to improve that intersection,” says communications director Jantine Van Kregten. “It doesn’t work particularly well for pedestrians as it is currently designed.”

The tourism organization works closely with the NCC on a number of projects annually to market the capital, she says.

Transforming that section of Confederation Boulevard into a “destination point or a landmark space,” she says, is something Ottawa Tourism looks forward to promoting.



Here are some images...
http://centretownnewsonline.ca/images/stories/feb0609/Page2-NCCLG.jpg

http://wwuploads.googlepages.com/c-byrideau.jpg

here's the NCC's site (http://www.canadascapital.gc.ca/bins/ncc_web_content_page.asp?cid=16300-20444-20505-108385&lang=1)

Zach6668
Feb 11, 2009, 6:51 AM
I don't really understand the connection to Times Square at all.

fireicedog
Feb 11, 2009, 7:20 AM
If they really wanted to liven up the area, they need to turn the conference centre into a public and pedestrian friendly meeting place with shops, retail, food vendors etc... I wonder how many people walk by that and wonder what exactly it is or what goes on inside. It's probably the coldest and most uninviting building we have downtown. It's on a setback as if to warn people to stay away and to ignore it as well. Open this building up and maybe the mini park thing will work.

eemy
Feb 11, 2009, 12:50 PM
While I think the renders look quite nice, is it any surprise that when the NCC tries to emulate Times Square, they produce a park? I think that's about the only thing they do well.

Tor2Ott
Feb 11, 2009, 1:16 PM
"Officials have listed Times Square in New York City, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris and London’s Trafalgar Square and Piccadilly Circus as examples of what they are trying to achieve in Ottawa’s downtown core."

Um...how exactly? It appears that they are taking out the underpass, and slap on a small piece of land with grass and trees.

Very NCC-like, as jeremy_haak says.

Kitchissippi
Feb 11, 2009, 1:31 PM
They should incorporate this project with what will happen with the transit tunnel. This intersection could have a multi-level underground component to it, and with the grade differences, it could offer interesting access points from the sunken plaza at 700 Sussex, the lower level of the Rideau Centre, and the canal level of the conference centre, connecting all with a transit station.

Acajack
Feb 11, 2009, 1:40 PM
I don't really understand the connection to Times Square at all.

Obviously, the person who said that has never been to Times Square! :koko:

eemy
Feb 11, 2009, 3:00 PM
Not that anyone would even want something akin to Times Square at that corner. The statement is pretty flabbergasting.

RoughRider
Feb 11, 2009, 3:44 PM
They should incorporate this project with what will happen with the transit tunnel. This intersection could have a multi-level underground component to it, and with the grade differences, it could offer interesting access points from the sunken plaza at 700 Sussex, the lower level of the Rideau Centre, and the canal level of the conference centre, connecting all with a transit station.

I agree to something of this sort. The old Union Station should be resurrected as a transit hub along with other uses.
For now, the NCC should concentrate their efforts on developing some of their other sites.
In my opinion, those images are terrible.

Mille Sabords
Feb 11, 2009, 5:20 PM
The only good thing about the images is that they widen the sidewalk on the east side of Colonel By and they remove the pedestrian underpass to provide a real sidewalk all the way through.

When I think Times Square, I think big jumbotrons and neon advertisement, big Virgin Megastore music store, big Toys R Us, big Hard Rock, big crowds, big noise, big bustle.

How in the name of Jesus H. Christ can those pastoral images ever purport to reprsent Times Square, is beyond me. It's like taking a picture of a New Edinburgh back alley and saying it's inspired on the Champs Élysées.

It's intellectual dishonesty at its worst.

OttawaSteve
Feb 11, 2009, 5:39 PM
Direct your outrage at Centretown News, not the NCC! The only thing drawing a direct comparison between Times Square and this specific site is the article's headline.

The only mention of Times Square within the article itself is the sentence: "Officials have listed Times Square in New York City, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris and London’s Trafalgar Square and Piccadilly Circus as examples of what they are trying to achieve in Ottawa’s downtown core."

Anyway, of those "examples" listed, Trafalgar Square actually offers a rather good model of what Confederation Square could become: symbolic heart of the city, major monument, Charing Cross station, embassies, art gallery, proximity to Parliament, the embankment, etc.

And I agree that the plans for this area absolutely must incorporate Union Station as a transportation hub.

Skyway
Feb 11, 2009, 5:42 PM
If they really wanted to liven up the area, they need to turn the conference centre into a public and pedestrian friendly meeting place with shops, retail, food vendors etc... I wonder how many people walk by that and wonder what exactly it is or what goes on inside. It's probably the coldest and most uninviting building we have downtown. It's on a setback as if to warn people to stay away and to ignore it as well. Open this building up and maybe the mini park thing will work.

I agree, while the park idea is nice- it would already be across the street from the war memorial another park like setting. Re-working the conference centre into a big people / tourist draw and designing the outside available area accordingly would be neat. Just get rid of that damn underpass walkway is all I care!!

Acajack
Feb 11, 2009, 5:43 PM
The only good thing about the images is that they widen the sidewalk on the east side of Colonel By and they remove the pedestrian underpass to provide a real sidewalk all the way through.

When I think Times Square, I think big jombotrons and neon advertisement, big Virgin Megastore music store, big Toys R Us, big Hard Rock, big crowds, big noise, big bustle.

How in the name of Jesus H. Christ can those pastoral images ever purport to reprsent Times Square, is beyond me. It's like taking a picture of a New Edinburgh back alley and saying it's inspired on the Champs Élysées.

It's intellectual dishonesty at its worst.

Sounds like someone just wanted to dazzle the audience with irrelevant references to famous urban carrefours from around the world by pulling them out of a hat.

So while we’re at it, I guess they also forgot Ginza in Tokyo...

highdensitysprawl
Feb 11, 2009, 8:01 PM
"Officials have listed Times Square in New York City, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris and London’s Trafalgar Square and Piccadilly Circus as examples of what they are trying to achieve in Ottawa’s downtown core."


Having been to the three I have bolded, I can categorically state that Ottawa drivers could not handle the turning movements and traffic flows that occur at the places listed....hell, the roundabout at the Central Experimental Farm throws people in Ottawa...ditto for the new ones in Hull. (note: The Central Experimental Farm roundabout has the wrong priority...it gives the priority to cars wanting to get on the roundabout).

m0nkyman
Feb 11, 2009, 8:25 PM
Any work done on this intersection before the transit tunnel is built, or at least the route is decided is a waste of time.

This intersection should be redeveloped in conjunction with the transit station and the conference centre....

And, yeah, the NCC can't help but see parks everywhere. They seem to have missed the idea that cities are about people, not plants.

The ideal use for this corner would be to develop a six to ten story high end building with retail on the first two floors, and office on the higher stories. In a perfect world, the first two floors would be something along the lines of an expanded Holt Renfrew, with AAA office space on the upper floors.

Lose the curved on ramp to Colonel By. Less lanes of traffic. Make the corner more urban.

rocketphish
Feb 11, 2009, 8:38 PM
And I agree that the plans for this area absolutely must incorporate Union Station as a transportation hub.

I also agree that the old Union Station must be returned to public usage and act as a transit station entrance. It would complement this gateway proposal very well.

The good news is that the City has already pencilled this in on their cross-country alignment of the Downtown Transit Tunnel. Hopefully the NCC agrees.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3662/3665383228_7cc115c4e5_o_d.jpg

see: http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/transit_tunnel/dott_en.pdf

Beatrix
Feb 11, 2009, 10:33 PM
I kind of like it, actually. Nothing spectacular but very tasteful (I agree the Times Square comparison was ridicules).

Pretty much ANYTHING would be an improvement over what we have now.

waterloowarrior
Feb 11, 2009, 10:35 PM
Direct your outrage at Centretown News, not the NCC! The only thing drawing a direct comparison between Times Square and this specific site is the article's headline.

The only mention of Times Square within the article itself is the sentence: "Officials have listed Times Square in New York City, the Arc de Triomphe in Paris and London’s Trafalgar Square and Piccadilly Circus as examples of what they are trying to achieve in Ottawa’s downtown core."

Anyway, of those "examples" listed, Trafalgar Square actually offers a rather good model of what Confederation Square could become: symbolic heart of the city, major monument, Charing Cross station, embassies, art gallery, proximity to Parliament, the embankment, etc.

And I agree that the plans for this area absolutely must incorporate Union Station as a transportation hub.

Yeah, I have a feeling that the NCC just gave examples of important public squares and the Centretown News decided to use Times Square for their headline...

waterloowarrior
Feb 11, 2009, 10:42 PM
Having been to the three I have bolded, I can categorically state that Ottawa drivers could not handle the turning movements and traffic flows that occur at the places listed....hell, the roundabout at the Central Experimental Farm throws people in Ottawa...ditto for the new ones in Hull. (note: The Central Experimental Farm roundabout has the wrong priority...it gives the priority to cars wanting to get on the roundabout).

this is one of the scenarios they were considering at an earlier stage... it didn't do very well in their evaluation matrix

http://wwuploads.googlepages.com/rideauroundabout.jpg

Beatrix
Feb 11, 2009, 10:46 PM
Ummm... yeah.

Ottawade
Feb 11, 2009, 11:00 PM
Anyone think that senior level NCC applicants should have to fill some check boxes indicating which of 30 major world cities they have visited and if they have less than 4-5 on the list they can't be accepted?

I'm not even well traveled and I know suburbs that have more interesting "landmarks"

Kitchissippi
Feb 11, 2009, 11:48 PM
They should have thought of that before they gave the 700 Sussex site to Claridge. :koko:

I really think they should link the lower level of the Rideau Centre to Union Station and integrate all the surface and indoor pedestrian circulation at all levels. Here's what I imagine if they did that and then filled the canal level of the station with bistros and cafes. That area right now is a complete waste of space.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3355/3272376825_aa7c1f2a60_o.jpg

rodionx
Feb 12, 2009, 12:04 AM
Union Station has got to be the most tragically wasted space in Ottawa. I actually attended a planning session there for a few days. We couldn't find any space to meet at our department, so someone had the bright idea of reserving a room at the "Government Conference Centre." All we really needed was a table - we could have met at any reasonably central mid-rise office building, but the 'official' space on offer was at Union Station.

The facilities themselves were halfheartedly retrofitted - I think we managed to get Internet access, but not much else. Most of the rooms were empty. There's a million good uses for Union Station, but the trick is still to pry it out of the hands of the federal government.

Deez
Feb 12, 2009, 12:28 AM
http://wwuploads.googlepages.com/c-byrideau.jpg


I had a good laugh over the fact that the "Linkage" image prominently features an abandoned train station...

Mille Sabords
Feb 12, 2009, 3:27 AM
They should have thought of that before they gave the 700 Sussex site to Claridge. :koko:

I really think they should link the lower level of the Rideau Centre to Union Station and integrate all the surface and indoor pedestrian circulation at all levels. Here's what I imagine if they did that and then filled the canal level of the station with bistros and cafes. That area right now is a complete waste of space.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3355/3272376825_aa7c1f2a60_o.jpg

WOW Kitchissippi. That's gorgeous. You ought to send that to the NCC and to the newspapers to illustrate what can be done with a bit of grey matter and imagination between the ears. I want this to happen!

:tup: :tup:

Ottawade
Feb 12, 2009, 3:42 AM
WOW Kitchissippi. That's gorgeous. You ought to send that to the NCC and to the newspapers to illustrate what can be done with a bit of grey matter and imagination between the ears. I want this to happen!

:tup: :tup:

I second this!

Jamaican-Phoenix
Feb 12, 2009, 11:54 AM
I second this!

I third it. :tup:

Aylmer
Feb 12, 2009, 12:35 PM
I third it. :tup:

I fourth this!

:notacrook:

Ryersonian
Feb 12, 2009, 2:23 PM
I fourth this!

:notacrook:

Often I wonder what WE can do...We're all seemingly educated and very opinionated; what is interesting is that our opinion is often mirrored by each other. The obvious 'cause' for us to take up would have been transit, but really there was/is little the everyday citizen could have done (unless you work for Delcan).

Would you guys be interested in forming a group to get the conference centre back into the City's hands...Kitchissippi this is pretty inspirational.

"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men’s blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will never die, but long after we are gone will be a living thing, asserting itself with ever-growing insistency. Remember that our sons and grandsons are going to do things that would stagger us. Let your watchword be order and your beacon beauty."-- Daniel Burnham, 1907

Can we even make enough noise to make this possible?

I think we can…I fifth this!

movebyleap
Feb 12, 2009, 2:37 PM
SIXTH!!!

Kitchissippi
Feb 12, 2009, 2:58 PM
Thanks for the comments, guys. I will see who and where in the NCC I can pass on this suggestion.

harls
Feb 12, 2009, 3:06 PM
oop, I'm late for the party, but - seventh! :D

Kitchissippi
Feb 12, 2009, 3:12 PM
By the way, this is what that area looks like in the summer...DEAD. I think the canal level is about the same grade as the lower level of the Rideau Centre, but Colonel By Drive would have to be slightly raised to accommodate a link. I remember going into the hall in the right (the one with the green doors thinking it would make a great food hall/market type of thing. I'm sure you could punch more windows and doors on that facade to make it more appealing.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3475/3273728901_901458243e_b.jpg

lrt's friend
Feb 12, 2009, 3:24 PM
Would you guys be interested in forming a group to get the conference centre back into the City's hands...Kitchissippi this is pretty inspirational.

I love the idea but do you think that the city would be any better at successfully implementing this kind of project?

Zach6668
Feb 12, 2009, 3:31 PM
I don't post much, but I love the idea.

Ryersonian
Feb 12, 2009, 3:55 PM
I love the idea but do you think that the city would be any better at successfully implementing this kind of project?

There is no doubt in my mind that this would be a long, gruelling and difficult task to accomplish.

We'd have to get the media behind us and meet with multi levels of gov't to get the talks going. At this point I think we need a stratgey session over some drinks; informal. Virtually anytime and any place is good for me (outside of office hours). There probably isn't a real sense of urgency, but it would be great to form a group and bounce some ideas around. Thoughts?

waterloowarrior
Feb 12, 2009, 4:48 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that this would be a long, gruelling and difficult task to accomplish.

We'd have to get the media behind us and meet with multi levels of gov't to get the talks going. At this point I think we need a stratgey session over some drinks; informal. Virtually anytime and any place is good for me (outside of office hours). There probably isn't a real sense of urgency, but it would be great to form a group and bounce some ideas around. Thoughts?

I'm up for a meet, to talk about this and whatever else :cheers: Next week sometime would be nice, I'm back in O-Town for Reading week...

Mille Sabords
Feb 12, 2009, 4:55 PM
I can meet if it's during lunch time and downtown.

aesthetic
Feb 12, 2009, 5:44 PM
I don't post much either - too busy lurking - but I think the idea is a great one Kitchissippi. I always think that it's unfortunate that we have this great canal but haven't been able to take advantage of it. I would be thrilled if something like this happened there.

highdensitysprawl
Feb 12, 2009, 6:12 PM
I'm up for a meet, to talk about this and whatever else :cheers: Next week sometime would be nice, I'm back in O-Town for Reading week...

WaterlooWarrior...I thought based on the information you are able to post on this forum that you were in Ottawa 24/7.

waterloowarrior
Feb 12, 2009, 6:30 PM
.

Rathgrith
Feb 12, 2009, 6:50 PM
Thanks for the comments, guys. I will see who and where in the NCC I can pass on this suggestion.

I guess I ninth this. However Kitchissippi, screw the NCC, you need to go public and email this photo to all the newspapers and build public pressure on the NCC.

highdensitysprawl
Feb 12, 2009, 7:15 PM
I guess I ninth this. However Kitchissippi, screw the NCC, you need to go public and email this photo to all the newspapers and build public pressure on the NCC.

As much as some people on this board find him to be a cranky, old man (sort of like the typical CFRA listnership), Randall Denley may be a good guy to send it to.

There is always the two harbingers of doom and gloom, Barry Waller and Rhys Phillips....er, wait a minute what was I saying.

Ottawade
Feb 12, 2009, 7:26 PM
I think we have a semi-broad diversity of people here with varied opinions and levels of technical expertise and formal training. At the same time we all seem interested in the same goal of steering the city's development in a positive direction.

Anyway, maybe it's time to attempt another SPP Ottawa meet for some organic pizza or some beers... perhaps in another thread...

Aylmer
Feb 12, 2009, 10:14 PM
If ever we do meet, keep in mind that some of us are still in school.
No flexible hours there!

:)

Jamaican-Phoenix
Feb 12, 2009, 10:40 PM
And I'm stuck at college here in North Bay, but I'll be back for the long weekend.

Davis137
Feb 13, 2009, 1:08 AM
Well, I'm just a plain ol (well, still fairly young) army guy that's expecting his daughter/first child to be born the end of May...but I'm always interested in beer and pub fare, and conversation with people in the know about real-estate and development, etc...

Radster
Feb 13, 2009, 5:28 PM
(note: The Central Experimental Farm roundabout has the wrong priority...it gives the priority to cars wanting to get on the roundabout).

This is because the one at the Experimental Farm is by definition a "traffic circle" and not a "roundabout" like the ones in Hull.
Traffic circles work differently than roundabouts in that the priority is given to cars entering the circle.


Anyway, I TENTH Kitchissippi's idea. Send it to some Ottawa newspapers, even the OBJ.

Kitchissippi
Feb 13, 2009, 8:55 PM
Encouraged by your comments, I thought I'd elaborate on a pie-in-the-sky context for the concept, connecting some thoughts I've had for a while regarding this area. It's a crescent shaped traffic-free promenade between the Byward Market and the Rideau Centre. Add a swing bridge across the canal to the NAC and it would be a pleasant way to get to Sparks Street, too.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3389/3276607121_b782286b4c_o.jpg

Elements:

1. allow the Chateau Laurier to expand and slightly encroach into Major's Hill Park, provided they tear down that ugly parking garage (put it underground) and open up a decent facade opening to the park and offer services and amenities. I find it ironic that the city's premier hotel turns its back on the capital's first urban park.

2 also open up the Chateau's Canal side to more shops, etc.

3. in the summer, encourage artists to set up along this route, much like they do in Quebec City, Old Montreal and Prague.

Jamaican-Phoenix
Feb 13, 2009, 11:06 PM
Encouraged by your comments, I thought I'd elaborate on a pie-in-the-sky context for the concept, connecting some thoughts I've had for a while regarding this area. It's a crescent shaped traffic-free promenade between the Byward Market and the Rideau Centre. Add a swing bridge across the canal to the NAC and it would be a pleasant way to get to Sparks Street, too.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3389/3276607121_b782286b4c_o.jpg

Elements:

1. allow the Chateau Laurier to expand and slightly encroach into Major's Hill Park, provided they tear down that ugly parking garage (put it underground) and open up a decent facade opening to the park and offer services and amenities. I find it ironic that the city's premier hotel turns its back on the capital's first urban park.

2 also open up the Chateau's Canal side to more shops, etc.

3. in the summer, encourage artists to set up along this route, much like they do in Quebec City, Old Montreal and Prague.

Can you run for Grand Dictator of Ottawa? Please?

Richard Eade
Feb 14, 2009, 1:37 AM
...
Elements:

1. allow the Chateau Laurier to expand and slightly encroach into Major's Hill Park, provided they tear down that ugly parking garage (put it underground) and open up a decent facade opening to the park and offer services and amenities. I find it ironic that the city's premier hotel turns its back on the capital's first urban park.

2 also open up the Chateau's Canal side to more shops, etc.

3. in the summer, encourage artists to set up along this route, much like they do in Quebec City, Old Montreal and Prague.
I would encourage such a plan. I like the idea of getting people to use such a wasted area. Could we encourage Buskers, too? They always seem to add fun to an area.

However, I worry about what an expansion of the Chateau would actually look like. I like the way the Lord Elgin was done when it grew; the general look was maintained but it is obviously different. For the Chateau, so far the additions I have seen (Zoe's and the Contemporary Photo Gallery) are not things which inspire me. There is a place for tacky glass add-ons, but it is not on buildings which are supposed to look stately and historical. The glass pyramid of the Louvre, the glass tower of the Victoria Memorial Building (Nature Museum), and Zoe's all strike me as being grossly out of character. If the Chateau could be enlarged in a respectful manner, I think it would be a good thing. If a bulbous glass 'tulip' is being added, then I am 100% against it. Your rendering looks good, but my bet is that the architect on the project will want to make a 'statement'.

(Yeah, I know, this is quite negative, but I group architects in with politicians, and lawyers; making a name for them-selves seems to come before anything else. I've grown very cynical.:()

ajldub
Feb 15, 2009, 3:56 AM
Almost 20 years ago now Routeburn came up with this great plan for a convention centre under Major's Hill Park:

http://www.routeburn.ca/past_projects/n_convention.html

I love this plan. It could conceivably be incorporated into a Chateau Laurier expansion, and serve as the link in an underground walkway from the new LRT main terminal at Union Station all the way to the Art Gallery...

highdensitysprawl
Feb 15, 2009, 1:18 PM
This is because the one at the Experimental Farm is by definition a "traffic circle" and not a "roundabout" like the ones in Hull.
Traffic circles work differently than roundabouts in that the priority is given to cars entering the circle.


Anyway, I TENTH Kitchissippi's idea. Send it to some Ottawa newspapers, even the OBJ.

I didn't know the difference as I have really only been on roundabouts (other than that one at the Experimental Farm)...the one in Cornwall when you get on or off the bridge to the USA is a roundabout isn't it.

If you are really into roundabouts there is always this.

http://www.amazon.ca/Roundabouts-Great-Britain-Kevin-Beresford/dp/1843308541

I once navigated myself through this one...not the faint at heart

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=51.562865,-1.771371&spn=0.000859,0.002843&t=h&z=19

TransitZilla
Feb 15, 2009, 11:46 PM
Encouraged by your comments, I thought I'd elaborate on a pie-in-the-sky context for the concept, connecting some thoughts I've had for a while regarding this area. It's a crescent shaped traffic-free promenade between the Byward Market and the Rideau Centre. Add a swing bridge across the canal to the NAC and it would be a pleasant way to get to Sparks Street, too.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3389/3276607121_b782286b4c_o.jpg

Elements:

1. allow the Chateau Laurier to expand and slightly encroach into Major's Hill Park, provided they tear down that ugly parking garage (put it underground) and open up a decent facade opening to the park and offer services and amenities. I find it ironic that the city's premier hotel turns its back on the capital's first urban park.

2 also open up the Chateau's Canal side to more shops, etc.

3. in the summer, encourage artists to set up along this route, much like they do in Quebec City, Old Montreal and Prague.

:cheers: Gorgeous! All that's missing is a new central library in the old Union Station. :)

It's also too bad that the patch of grass on the east side of the canal, north of Wellington, couldn't be better used, especially the part directly beside the Chateau/Portrait Gallery.

Aylmer
Feb 16, 2009, 12:17 AM
I didn't know the difference as I have really only been on roundabouts (other than that one at the Experimental Farm)...the one in Cornwall when you get on or off the bridge to the USA is a roundabout isn't it.

If you are really into roundabouts there is always this.

http://www.amazon.ca/Roundabouts-Great-Britain-Kevin-Beresford/dp/1843308541

I once navigated myself through this one...not the faint at heart

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=51.562865,-1.771371&spn=0.000859,0.002843&t=h&z=19

That last one is scary...

:(

rocketphish
Feb 16, 2009, 3:47 PM
While I applaud the concept of making the space at the corner of Rideau Street and Colonel By Drive greener and more people-friendy, as usual with grand NCC visions, it puts form ahead of function. The end result of this vision will look great, but will ultimately be detrimental to many users of the space. The NCC seems incapable of designing spaces for all users.

Just think of the Western Parkway along the Ottawa River, which looks beautiful, but which in reality is a huge tract of sterile riverfront property that simply cuts off access to the river for most citizens (all but a few cyclists, walkers, beach-goers, and drivers who admire it from their car window). The only real winner in the Parkway project is the commuter, as this space is really just a fancy commuter corridor.


The NCC Vision Statement for the Rideau/Colonel By gateway node is:
"to reclaim this historic space and transform it into an icon of the Canadian experience on the Confederation Boulevard. The node will convey a significant Capital to the world and be representative of Canadian values, ideals and role on the world stage."

Later they elaborate: "a strategic place; a place for people; a place of arrival and dispersal reflecting its historic role as a crossroads and destination""

I suspect that the loser in this scenario will be the driver. Maybe it's only fair to balance out the Western Parkway commuter win?

I say this because the traffic flow reconfiguration appears to be ill-conceived. In the existing situation, there is a dedicated through lane from southbound MacKenzie Ave. across the ramp to Colonel By Drive. There is also a dedicated right-hand turn lane that moves traffic from eastbound Wellington/Elgin Streets onto the MacKenzie Ave. ramp and along to Colonel By Drive. Both of these traffic patterns keep drivers away from the intersection at Sussex/Rideau Streets. According to NCC traffic counts, these two routes carry a significant number of vehicles:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3544/3664580589_5ac94c337f_o_d.jpg

As previously mentioned, Scenario 3 seems to be the leading design proposal (http://www.canadascapital.gc.ca/data/2/rec_docs/15655_Presentation%20Mtg2.pdf), and its major feature is the complete removal of the MacKenzie Ave. ramp linkage to Colonel By Drive, and the problematic pedestrian underpass beneath it. Score a win for pedestrians. Here's what it could look like:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3392/3665383304_a155648b0b_o_d.jpg

Unfortunately the aforementioned MacKenzie Ave. traffic must now cross the general eastbound Rideau Street flow and merge into a very short right-hand lane before making the turn onto Colonel By Drive. Throw-in the usually heavy pedestrian traffic that uses the crosswalks at the Sussex/Rideau intersection, and this just screams bottleneck to me.

Without some very well-timed traffic signals, and other measures, this intersection could become a traffic nightmare.

Beatrix
Feb 16, 2009, 3:55 PM
Colonel By will also be narrowed due to the expansion of the Convention Centre.

Along with the LRT tunnel (fingers crossed), perhaps this is all part of an overall plan to slow traffic in the area?

Kitchissippi
Feb 16, 2009, 6:47 PM
I think the problem is too much has been done to accommodate vehicular traffic in this area and maybe it is high time that pedestrians and cyclists are given priority.

Sussex and Mackenzie should be turned back to two way streets, eliminating the need for the Mackenzie-Colonel By connection. The configuration around the Peacekeeping monument would have to be re-jigged, but that area needs improvement and simplification, too.

When the transit tunnel gets built and the issue of massive amounts of buses having to cross downtown gets eliminated, they should just let the traffic situation in the core "fail" and become a deterrent for people wanting to take their cars downtown. For example it never ceases to amaze me how many stupid people still insist on driving around the ByWard Market during Canada Day.

Rathgrith
Feb 16, 2009, 6:54 PM
Someone should make sure the NCC doesn't put any trees there. Ottawa already has enough of them. And while the NCC has done a good job with parks like Confederation and Majors Hill.I want to see a public square that screams urban. Something like Dundas square would be nice, minus the ads. I'm thinking something like Trafalgar Square (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafalgar_Square).

Richard Eade
Feb 16, 2009, 7:04 PM
...
It's also too bad that the patch of grass on the east side of the canal, north of Wellington, couldn't be better used, especially the part directly beside the Chateau/Portrait Gallery.
Would you suggest stairs so that people could access the locks from Colonel's Hill (Known as Major's Hill now, since the Major came to send Colonel By home, took over his house and then re-named the hill after himself - I guess rank has its privileges); or would you go with a full blown FUNICULAR? Funiculars seem popular with tourists and this would be mostly a tourist area.

rocketphish
Feb 16, 2009, 7:46 PM
...this would be mostly a tourist area.

I think you're on to something. In the spirit of Bytown, how about a log flume ride on the way down, and a logger's pole climb to get back up? Call it BytownLand and charge admission, hehe.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2549/3665383418_52384c1081_o_d.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3305/3665383440_d8c5e64760_o_d.jpg

:)

Aylmer
Feb 16, 2009, 10:41 PM
Wheeeeeeeeee!

:D

OttawaSteve
Feb 17, 2009, 3:05 PM
I think the problem is too much has been done to accommodate vehicular traffic in this area and maybe it is high time that pedestrians and cyclists are given priority.



It seems to me that the Alexandra Bridge is to blame for a lot of the traffic through this intersection, particularly during rush hour. Ideally, I think that once a new interprovincial bridge gets built further east, the Alexandra Bridge should be closed to vehicular traffic.

With cars gone from the Alexandra Bridge, it could be reverted to rail/LRT (along with pedestrians and cyclists), providing a far more direct link between Hull and Ottawa than the Prince of Wales Bridge. LRT entering Ottawa would follow the routing of the original Hull Electric Railway service along the east side of the canal entranceway south to a terminus under Wellington Street, for direct connection with Ottawa's east-west light rail. The construction of this could coincide nicely with the sort of redevelopment of the west side of the Chateau Laurier that's being proposed by Kitchissippi and others.

And on the Hull side, the ridiculously wide road allowance on St-Laurent could be put to proper use accomodating light rail on a RoW up as far as St-Joseph or wherever.

Aylmer
Feb 18, 2009, 2:20 AM
It seems to me that the Alexandra Bridge is to blame for a lot of the traffic through this intersection, particularly during rush hour. Ideally, I think that once a new interprovincial bridge gets built further east, the Alexandra Bridge should be closed to vehicular traffic.

With cars gone from the Alexandra Bridge, it could be reverted to rail/LRT (along with pedestrians and cyclists), providing a far more direct link between Hull and Ottawa than the Prince of Wales Bridge. LRT entering Ottawa would follow the routing of the original Hull Electric Railway service along the east side of the canal entranceway south to a terminus under Wellington Street, for direct connection with Ottawa's east-west light rail. The construction of this could coincide nicely with the sort of redevelopment of the west side of the Chateau Laurier that's being proposed by Kitchissippi and others.

And on the Hull side, the ridiculously wide road allowance on St-Laurent could be put to proper use accomodating light rail on a RoW up as far as St-Joseph or wherever.

Though I do really wish that the Alexandra bridge was reconverted to rail, the construction of Des Allumettières just puts too much traffic on this crossing...

But we can dream, can't we?

Radster
Feb 18, 2009, 6:08 PM
And on the Hull side, the ridiculously wide road allowance on St-Laurent could be put to proper use accomodating light rail on a RoW up as far as St-Joseph or wherever.

Aylmer is correct, plus its not St-Laurent anymore, its Allumettieres.


Someone mentioned the war memorial on the last page, I have always wondered why the city didn't decide to build a big roundabout around the war memorial when they renovated that whole area not that long ago. It seems to me that its perfectly suited for a big roundabout. Right now it looks and feels like they tried to make a roundabout but had a brainfart somewhere along the way.:jester:

waterloowarrior
Mar 9, 2009, 3:40 PM
Taming a 'cranky intersection' (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/fp/Taming+cranky+intersection/1368598/story.html)

An NCC study proposes transforming the corner of Sussex and Rideau into a public square, writes Maria Cook.

BY MARIA COOK, THE OTTAWA CITIZENMARCH 9, 2009 9:29


The intersection of Sussex Drive and Rideau Street is one of Ottawa's busiest. Buses roar past. Pedestrians brave slopes, perilously narrow sidewalks, heavy traffic and a concrete underpass as they walk to the Rideau Centre, Parliament Hill, the Westin and Château Laurier hotels and the ByWard Market.

"It's a cranky intersection," says George Baird, dean of the University of Toronto's school of architecture. The National Capital Commission recently unveiled a plan to transform the intersection into a public square with a monument, where people can walk, sit and relax.

Recognizing that traffic must be accommodated, the NCC looked for inspiration to such busy places as Times Square in New York, and Piccadilly Circus and Trafalgar Square in London.

"The vision ... is to reclaim this historic space as an urban experience and transform it into a national icon," says a study commissioned by the NCC. The site "will convey a significant capital to the world and be representative of Canadian values, ideas and the nation's role on the world stage." The intersection is a key point on Confederation Boulevard. Dignitaries travelling from the airport to the prime minister's residence or Rideau Hall pass through.

The ceremonial route, which joins national institutions such as Parliament Hill, the Supreme Court, the National Gallery and the Museum of Civilization, turns here.

"You're faced with a pretty brutal environment," says NCC project manager Diane Irwin. "Pedestrians and cyclists, especially on the south side, are left to their own devices. For visitors it's very difficult. If you don't know the city, you don't realize you have to go down steps to get to the Rideau Centre." The pedestrian underpass would be removed, roads reconfigured, sidewalks widened and trees planted. The square would be paved and possibly have a fountain. "Water is a wonderful element to bring people into a space," says Irwin.

Nan Griffiths, a retired professor at Carleton University's school of architecture, is impressed.

"It's a fabulous idea," Griffiths says. "I'm sure it would appeal enormously and draw people and make people think that Ottawa is a city of some vision and some interest.

"It's all about traffic in that whole area and I think it should be about people because that's what a good city is all about." The redevelopment of the Congress Centre will also bring visitors to the space.

At stake is the balance between traffic speed and a more civic, refreshing sense of place. "We will try to reach a balance between accommodating traffic and public space," says Irwin.

Achieving the balance is a critical issue because it has to do with a change of attitude and to what extent traffic engineering dominates urban design choices. "If only we could get the traffic engineers to agree to take down the ugly traffic lights and install something more reasonable," says Rideau-Vanier Councillor Georges Bédard.

The space in question is a triangle with busy roads on two sides and a blank wall. It used to be the site of the Grand Hotel, which was attached to the east wall of the former Union Station, now the Government Conference Centre.

What makes it work from a traffic perspective is the MacKenzie Avenue ramp extension and the sunken underpass -- which has become a hangout for the homeless.

In three scenarios under study by the NCC, the underpass and the ramp would be removed.

Everyone agrees the intersection could be better, but accommodating the traffic will not be so easy. On a typical summer weekday the intersection is crossed by 28,000 vehicles, including 2,400 buses and 1,500 bicycles, and by 20,000 pedestrians.

"It's an extremely complex transportation knuckle with an extremely high volume of traffic," says Yves Gosselin, an Ottawa urban designer and former president of the Royal Architectural Institute of Canada. "Any attempt to create a true pedestrian space has to overcome these transportation challenges, which are daunting." One possibility is to put cars underground, he says. "It gets too crowded. Too many pedestrians. Too many cars trying to get through the amber light." Baird recalls bumping into former Liberal leader Stéphane Dion on the sidewalk in front of the Westin Hotel.

"I remember thinking the sidewalk is barely four feet wide. It's really mean," he says. "There's not a lot of space. There would be no way of enhancing the pedestrian space short of taking space from the automobile." Irwin says the plan is to reduce traffic speed rather than volume, and admits the creation of a square would likely cause rush-hour delays. An engineering assessment noted "major adverse impact to traffic operations" in two of the scenarios under consideration.

"It's time to stop worrying about the flow of suburban cars," says George Dark, author of a downtown urban design study for the City of Ottawa. "It should be an amazing intersection and it's not. It's a gigantic suburban intersection. It belongs on Hunt Club Road. It doesn't belong in the middle of the city.

"It's time to stop putting pedestrians underground," adds Dark. "You'd never build that today. In the contemporary city, it's transit first, people first, urban design and street life and enjoyment first. And if cars can get through, that's fine too." Would a downtown transit tunnel provide some relief to traffic pressure? During the bus strike, this was one of the intersections that often moved more freely.

The NCC sees the space as having potential for some sort of monument, though with the Rideau Canal, a world heritage site, and Confederation Square nearby some people question whether there is a need to compete.

It may be enough to make it an attractive urban space, a pause on the ceremonial route, as well as a breathing point in civic life, whether you're getting on a bus at the Rideau Centre, passing in your car or riding your bike.

"The monument part seems completely gratuitous," says Paul Kariouk, architecture professor at Carleton University. "It's never going to have the significance of the Cenotaph. This thing could be a glorified traffic circle." Kariouk says there should be an ideas competition. "If it's a vital threshold into the city for dignitaries let's rethink what that could be. It's almost like the front door to downtown.

"It has to have some quality that allows you for a moment to forget the city," he says, as well as "a stunning night presence" with illumination.

The NCC hopes to share costs with the federal department of Public Works. There is no cost estimate. "We know it won't be cheap," says Irwin.

They hope to choose one of three scenarios within a year or two and begin to develop a design. Irwin says the square could be in place in five years, although a monument would take longer.

Asked if anyone opposed the plan, she said no, but noted it's in early days. "We have yet to reach the contentious stage."

- - -

Three possibilities for redeveloping Sussex & Rideau


Scenario One

Creates a public space adjacent to the east façade of the Government Conference Centre. The underpass and MacKenzie Avenue ramp extension is removed and all pedestrian circulation is at grade.

A small island at the intersection of Colonel By and Rideau serves as a refuge for pedestrians crossing the street. It is the most minimal intervention.

- About 900 square metres of commemoration space

- All existing pedestrian crossings are maintained

- Existing traffic patterns are maintained

Scenario Two

Creates a central, triangular-shaped space for public gathering and commemoration.

The space is defined and contained by a ceremonial streetscape with wide promenades.

A centre median divides Colonel By. A new pedestrian crossing of Rideau is located at MacKenzie. The underpass and MacKenzie ramp are removed. Bike lanes provided.

- About 1,700 square metres of commemoration space

- Pedestrian landing areas at Rideau intersections are enlarged

- Sussex is one-way northbound to St. Patrick

- Traffic lane widths are adjusted to accommodate wider sidewalks

Scenario Three

The entire area east of the Government Conference Centre to the intersection of Colonel By and Rideau is dedicated to public space.

The space is contiguous across the south side of Rideau strengthening relationship to Rideau Canal, Confederation Square and Confederation Boulevard.

A grand boulevard is developed along Colonel By. It is envisioned with wide sidewalks and centre medians. New pedestrian crossings of Rideau at Mackenzie link directly to the space.

The underpass and MacKenzie ramp are removed. Bike lanes provided.

- About 2,100 square metres of commemoration space

- Pedestrian landing areas at Rideau intersection are enlarged

- Sussex is one-way northbound to St. Patrick

Source: Confederation Boulevard: Sussex/Rideau/Colonel By Landmark Node: An Urban Design Study for a 21st Century Space, 2008

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.ottawacitizen.com/taming+cranky+intersection/1368598/1369737.bin?size=620x400

Mille Sabords
Mar 9, 2009, 4:18 PM
Aylmer is correct, plus its not St-Laurent anymore, its Allumettieres.

The Alexandra Bridge, then Des Allumettières, then all the roads before it, it's all a domino that illustrates how utterly useless it is to "blame" one road or one intersection for "vehicular congestion".

The real culprit is the number of people using private vehicles. The more you make room for private vehicles, the more there will be private vehicles.

Conversely, the more you make room for pedestrians, the more pedestrians there will be.

There will never be "enough capacity" for vehicles in a roadway network that must also accommodate pedestrians (and I mean REALLY accommodate, that is, make them feel that the city is their friend, and that they will not be made to wait intolerably long to cross a street, they will not be caused to walk in non-straight lines to avoid a car-caused obstacle like a turning lane, etc.)

There is an essential either-or choice to be made in designing a road system: it'll be either GOOD for pedestrians or GOOD for cars. It can't be both. One must lose and one must win.

In the downtown, cars must lose and peds must win. Let's start with that. Once we have that beachhead established, we can conquer adjacent parts of downtown.

waterloowarrior
Mar 10, 2009, 2:01 PM
Needed: Dynamic view of Ottawa

Talk about making downtown more exciting is just that

BY RANDALL DENLEY, THE OTTAWA CITIZENMARCH 10, 2009 10:01 AM


When people talk about making downtown Ottawa more exciting, one is never sure whether to laugh or cry. The only thing certain is that one of those two responses would be appropriate. The National Capital Commission's plan to improve the intersection of Rideau Street and Sussex Drive actually justifies both.

How does one keep a straight face when the NCC talks about turning a problem intersection into an insignificant plaza and describes the end result as "a national icon"? That says something about our nation or our icons, probably both. Less amusing is the fact that this modest improvement is seriously put forward as a real upgrade downtown. That is a pathetic comment on both downtown and the lack of civic vision that characterizes Ottawa.

The plan to make the space in front of the Government Conference Centre more friendly to people and less friendly to cars is fine, as far as it goes. The problem is, it doesn't go very far. The NCC talks about using the resulting space as a location for unspecified national commemorative events, although Confederation Square and the National War Memorial are right around the corner. Do we need a second-string commemorative site? The idea feels like reaching to justify the cost of what is really just the cleanup of a bad intersection, something that should probably be on the city's to-do list.

Maybe we should put up a statue depicting urban planners. They have been working on this site since 1915, producing 13 individual plans, and they still haven't gotten it right.

What better place to commemorate their eternal efforts?

The NCC's design study refers to what's planned as "an urban experience." What could be more urban than hustling across the pavement on a cold, windy day? Perhaps more challenging is the plan to "be representative of Canadian values, ideals and the nation's role on the world stage." Throughout its design study, the NCC calls the space in question "the Node." That gives a fair idea of how sexy this is.

What's most obviously missing from the NCC's plan is a dynamic use for the landmark building that happens to be located right behind the proposed square. The former Union Station is one of the most beautiful buildings in the city, but it has limited public value, serving as mediocre government meeting space. The time is right to make it much more. One of the possible alignments for the city's rail tunnel would bring trains back to the station, using Union Station as one of the entrances for its Rideau Street stop. The volume of people passing through the station could give it new life as a retail and tourism-information focal point.

None of that will happen unless the federal government wakes up and sees the potential. It has resisted attempts to restore broad public use to the building. In this part of Ottawa, federal involvement is key, but the national government is slow, bureaucratic and unimaginative.

There is so much that could be done by a creative government. Completing the Portrait Gallery of Canada building would be the most obvious first priority. This boarded-up mess, right across from the Parliament Buildings, is a national disgrace. Now that the Harper government has failed in its attempt to ship the gallery west, it should get on with the job and turn this valuable piece of real estate into an asset instead of an eyesore.

The area in front of the Hill is being polluted, visually and literally, by row after row of buses. Much of that traffic is generated by the location of government buildings in Gatineau. A loop of light rail that connected major federal buildings and the national institutions would be good for the environment and good for tourism. It's a project that could easily be undertaken as part of the government's huge infrastructure spree, but apparently it's up to someone else to suggest it.

The NCC has been talking for years about improving access to the Ottawa River downtown. How difficult can this be?

What's missing is someone at the federal level with a dynamic view of the city and the clout to make things happen. If we wait for Public Works to realize the potential of our old train station, we will wait forever.

The city has a role to play, too. Some things can only be accomplished by the federal government because it owns so much vital property and has the financial means to act, but surely our city leaders have a responsibility to create an exciting plan for the downtown and pressure federal politicians to support it. We need a downtown plan with imagination, achievable goals, real costs and an aggressive timeline for results. A better intersection doesn't quite cut it.

Contact Randall Denley at 613-596-3756 or by e-mail,

rdenley@thecitizen.canwest.com

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Ryersonian
Mar 10, 2009, 2:11 PM
Needed: Dynamic view of Ottawa

Talk about making downtown more exciting is just that

BY RANDALL DENLEY, THE OTTAWA CITIZENMARCH 10, 2009 10:01 AM


Contact Randall Denley at 613-596-3756 or by e-mail,

rdenley@thecitizen.canwest.com

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

We need to create some sort of group with some high profile heritage and media people called the friends of Union Station.

osirisboy
Mar 10, 2009, 4:19 PM
wow that guy who wrote that article is a miserable person

Dado
Mar 10, 2009, 4:29 PM
:previous:

That pretty much covers it.

eemy
Mar 10, 2009, 4:33 PM
wow that guy who wrote that article is a miserable person

He's also spot on, in my opinion. I used to disagree with Randall Denley all the time, but I've found in recent time to be agree far more often than not.

The NCC should be that creative force, but it seems impotent to me. They basically stick statues on corners and create plans that get filed away in a drawer and forgotten. In the rare cases where they actually make significant changes, it usually involves tearing down an important historic building and planting trees in its place.

kwoldtimer
Mar 10, 2009, 10:52 PM
We need to create some sort of group with some high profile heritage and media people called the friends of Union Station.

It already exists in the form of Heritage Ottawa, no?

Jamaican-Phoenix
Mar 11, 2009, 2:34 AM
Denley is merely echoing what all of us have been saying on here for ages. Either he's a poster on here, or he frequents the site A LOT. :haha:

TransitZilla
Mar 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
I still think that Union Station would make a marvellous site for a new central library.

I'm all for this study- that underpass is one of my least favourite things in the entire downtown- but rather than creating yet another square (i.e. windswept wasteland), why don't we use the area freed up for an addition of a fabulous entrance to our new central library opening right onto Rideau & Sussex?

TransitZilla
Mar 11, 2009, 1:58 PM
BTW, the NCC has a website for this study:
http://www.capcan.ca/bins/ncc_web_content_page.asp?cid=16300-20444-20505-108385&lang=1

The 5 scenarios are outlined in this presentation (http://www.capcan.ca/data/2/rec_docs/15655_Presentation%20Mtg2.pdf).

Mille Sabords
Mar 11, 2009, 3:56 PM
He's also spot on, in my opinion. I used to disagree with Randall Denley all the time, but I've found in recent time to be agree far more often than not.

The NCC should be that creative force, but it seems impotent to me. They basically stick statues on corners and create plans that get filed away in a drawer and forgotten. In the rare cases where they actually make significant changes, it usually involves tearing down an important historic building and planting trees in its place.

I agree with you Jeremy. I think Denley nailed it right on the head this time. Someone has posted a brilliant photoshop image of Union Station with cafés along the canal banks. No reason there can't be a similar type of "opening" of the facade that faces this new square. Or even, an addition that would frame and animate the space better. There must also be something we can do with Union Station's enormous blank wall. I'm not necessarily thinking a jumbotron ... but something.

p_xavier
Mar 11, 2009, 4:03 PM
I agree with you Jeremy. I think Denley nailed it right on the head this time. Someone has posted a brilliant photoshop image of Union Station with cafés along the canal banks. No reason there can't be a similar type of "opening" of the facade that faces this new square. Or even, an addition that would frame and animate the space better. There must also be something we can do with Union Station's enormous blank wall. I'm not necessarily thinking a jumbotron ... but something.

Folliage? Bigger trees?

m0nkyman
Mar 11, 2009, 4:14 PM
A replacement for the Grand Hotel?

Danman
Mar 11, 2009, 6:32 PM
A replacement for the Grand Hotel?
My grandfather was the manager of the Grand Hotel! I saw my first stripper there at the age of 13 :-P :hyper:

kwoldtimer
Mar 11, 2009, 8:07 PM
I agree with you Jeremy. I think Denley nailed it right on the head this time. Someone has posted a brilliant photoshop image of Union Station with cafés along the canal banks. No reason there can't be a similar type of "opening" of the facade that faces this new square. Or even, an addition that would frame and animate the space better. There must also be something we can do with Union Station's enormous blank wall. I'm not necessarily thinking a jumbotron ... but something.

I was thinking along similar lines - perhaps a glass winter garden with space for an outdoor cafe.

rocketphish
Mar 11, 2009, 8:29 PM
My grandfather was the manager of the Grand Hotel! I saw my first stripper there at the age of 13 :-P :hyper:

Well, post a photo if you have one! ;)

the capital urbanite
Mar 12, 2009, 4:06 PM
why study it for the next 5 years?!
All the necessary infrastructure is already there...
paint some new lines;
close-off the mackenzie king ramp to traffic;
backfill the underpass;
put in a new sidewalk on the South side of Rideau street.

The city could do it before June...

highdensitysprawl
Mar 12, 2009, 4:52 PM
why study it for the next 5 years?!
All the necessary infrastructure is already there...
paint some new lines;
close-off the mackenzie king ramp to traffic;
backfill the underpass;
put in a new sidewalk on the South side of Rideau street.

The city could do it before June...

If in doubt, study it..that is the motto of this City Council.

citizen j
Mar 12, 2009, 5:35 PM
Yeah, as surreal as it is to say "I agree with Denley" (he's been so off the mark in the past), this time I definitely have to agree with him. Someone needs to tell the NCC that "public space" and "green space" aren't the same thing. I want to write them a letter telling them that parks have a place, and thanks for the Greenbelt and Gatineau Park, etc., etc., but please stop sodding the city. Maybe I'll go do that now.

jitterbug
Mar 13, 2009, 2:04 PM
OK, maybe I'm missing something, but why do all three proposals call for the underpass to be eliminated? Is it just to get rid of those annoying homeless people and other "trouble-makers"? If so, then we should also eliminate most of Rideau Street, the Byward Market, Bank Street, etc.

Maybe we should try tackling the root of the problem of street crime than tying to shove it under the rug.

Pedestrain underpasses work successfully in Europe. It's the perfect way of making a busy intersection safe for large volumes of pedestrians, while allowing the smooth flow of vehicles on the surface. Simple as that.

Acajack
Mar 13, 2009, 2:25 PM
OK, maybe I'm missing something, but why do all three proposals call for the underpass to be eliminated? Is it just to get rid of those annoying homeless people and other "trouble-makers"? If so, then we should also eliminate most of Rideau Street, the Byward Market, Bank Street, etc.

Maybe we should try tackling the root of the problem of street crime than tying to shove it under the rug.

Pedestrain underpasses work successfully in Europe. It's the perfect way of making a busy intersection safe for large volumes of pedestrians, while allowing the smooth flow of vehicles on the surface. Simple as that.

It is true that they work in Europe, but I am not sure that the Rideau-Sussex intersection is *that* busy (say, compared to the Arc de Triomphe where at least 12 streets if not more converge) that an underpass is absolutely necessary. I think another difference is that many cities in Europe (Paris is a good example) have greater foot traffic and all times of the day, every night of the week, than Ottawa. So the likelihood of finding one’s self completely alone in the underpasses near the Arc is quite a bit lower than it is in Ottawa.

Anyway, I don’t know how they deal with underpass security issues in Europe, perhaps security cameras? Or blaring operatic arias on speakers to keep riff-raff away?

Mille Sabords
Mar 13, 2009, 2:56 PM
OK, maybe I'm missing something, but why do all three proposals call for the underpass to be eliminated? Is it just to get rid of those annoying homeless people and other "trouble-makers"? If so, then we should also eliminate most of Rideau Street, the Byward Market, Bank Street, etc.

Maybe we should try tackling the root of the problem of street crime than tying to shove it under the rug.

Pedestrain underpasses work successfully in Europe. It's the perfect way of making a busy intersection safe for large volumes of pedestrians, while allowing the smooth flow of vehicles on the surface. Simple as that.

My own take on it is that the "street crime" that occurs here is a byproduct of bad design, not the real issue. The real issue is that the underpass makes pedestrians walk longer and detour from their intended path, which is a straight line along Rideau Street. Before there even was an underpass, this was a real city block with a number of buildings that had stores along a continuous sidewalk at the surface between Union Station and Sussex.

The underpass was built to get pedestrians out of the way of cars.

I am very happy that they will finally give us back our sidewalk. Cars are faster than people on foot, they can take an extra few seconds to turn left on Rideau and right on Sussex. Pedestrians are slower. Eliminating the underpass can easily shave a nice chunk of time and distance off a walk (in winter, etc.)

jitterbug
Mar 13, 2009, 3:29 PM
Anyway, I don’t know how they deal with underpass security issues in Europe, perhaps security cameras? Or blaring operatic arias on speakers to keep riff-raff away?

I can't say how much of a security issue European underpasses are, although I would think simple measures like security cameras and routine foot patrols would be a good start. But filling in the hole seems like a drastic step to resolve a simple security challenge.

As Randall Denley correctly observed, all three proposals are underwhelming. There is so much more that could - must - be done to fix the downtown core, and tweeking one intersection won't make an ounce of difference. My pet peeve is King Edward Avenue (especially north of Rideau), a once proud "avenue" now disgraced into a dilapidated freeway on-ramp. (And the so-called improvements to this street are a sad joke.)

Acajack
Mar 13, 2009, 4:02 PM
Personally, security in that underpass has never been a real concern for me, as I am bulky enough that no one really messes with me.

But I just don’t think of it as a quality urban space for Ottawa, it being cold, damp, poorly lit, and surrounded by brutalist, non-descript concrete walls.

All in all, no big loss for Canada’s capital if they do away with it. And good thing they got Terry Fox out of there!

Ottawade
Mar 13, 2009, 7:57 PM
In addition to foot traffic and car traffic there are cyclists and as a cyclist that underpass is tremendously annoying. You have to cross over two lanes of right turning traffic who don't seem to care much about hitting you. Biking through that really awkward intersection always feels more dangerous than it should. Best case scenario if you are a tame biker, you can get off your bike if and portage under (UGH!). Often when i bike to the rideau center from centertown I will just end up locking my bike to the railing before the underpass and walking under.

Ottawade
Apr 21, 2009, 3:18 PM
Here's how the intersection looked Sunday evening.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3493/3462216513_ce6c184239_b.jpg

(My photo)

waterloowarrior
Aug 7, 2009, 11:31 PM
good post by David Reevely (http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/greaterottawa/archive/2009/08/07/a-pro-park-pathology.aspx) on why he's glad 700 Sussex wasn't turned into a park, he links to a good article as well.

A pro-park pathology

By DAVID REEVELY 08-07-2009 COMMENTS(0) GREATER OTTAWA

Dismal as I think the building at 700 Sussex Drive is, at least it's better than the park a lot of people seemed to want to have on the Daly site. It's got some street-level retail and an Ottawa-original restaurant with one of the city's great patios in the Metropolitain. Much better than another park right next to the very large and lovely Major's Hill Park and quite close to the long ribbon park that runs along the downtown stretch of the Rideau Canal. In this case, the fact we got a building there, for all its flaws, is pretty much due to the bullheadedness of the National Capital Commission — which is also why the building is flawed, since the NCC didn't really listen to anybody about how it was to be built.

Matthew Yglesias looks at the reasons for a pro-park bias (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/08/how-many-parks-do-you-need.php) in his capital, Washington D.C.:

It seems to me that human beings have some kind of psychological tick that leads them to overestimate the amount of time they’re going to want to spend engaged in outdoor recreating. It’s one thing if you live in California, where the weather’s nice all of the time, but here in the Northeast how much use do we really get out of parks? People don’t go to the park at night, or during the winter, or when it’s raining....

Part of the issue I that I think there’s not enough “in it” for the local community to allow development as opposed to park creation. An elected official doesn’t want to be in the position of giving land to insidious developers instead of using it for public purposes like a park.

Not that I'm against parks, at all. It's just that I don't think they're automatically the best use of any vacant space. They can be hubs of community activity, sure, but only when they're placed and configured right. The long spaghetti strands of greenspace we get along our waterways where commerce and other activities are all but forbidden, also thanks to the NCC, are a grievous underuse of places with tremendous potential.

kwoldtimer
Aug 8, 2009, 2:21 PM
:previous: An urban square, however, could be much more than a park on this Rideau/Sussex site. Something that incorporates the space into the Conference Centre. I still like the idea of a glass winter garden/cafe attached to the east side of the building.

waterloowarrior
Nov 14, 2009, 10:28 PM
The following item is planned for 10:25 at this Wednesday's board meeting (http://capitaleducanada.gc.ca/data/2/rec_docs/22954_2009-11-18_public_Agenda.pdf)


National Capital Commission’s Rideau Canal Open Space Preliminary Design – Plaza Bridge to Laurier Bridge and the Ottawa Convention Centre’s OCC Public Realm Preliminary Design (D)


I guess this may be the area where Kitchissippi's proposed canal level space would be?

rakerman
Nov 15, 2009, 2:52 PM
Here's how the intersection looked Sunday evening.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3493/3462216513_ce6c184239_b.jpg

(My photo)

That entire mess is mostly NCC + the Greber plan, isn't it? I think there used to be a building next to the train station, not a messed up partial-highway vision. Plus NCC allowed the Daly Building to fall into disrepair, destroyed it, and then allowed not only a condo on the site but one that is a featureless cube. All of which to say anything that they do to "fix" Rideau-Sussex will just be an attempt to undo decades of very bad planning.

rakerman
Nov 15, 2009, 3:12 PM
Matthew Yglesias looks at the reasons for a pro-park bias (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/08/how-many-parks-do-you-need.php) in his capital, Washington D.C.:

Not that I'm against parks, at all. It's just that I don't think they're automatically the best use of any vacant space. They can be hubs of community activity, sure, but only when they're placed and configured right. The long spaghetti strands of greenspace we get along our waterways where commerce and other activities are all but forbidden, also thanks to the NCC, are a grievous underuse of places with tremendous potential.

I think the point is that urban planning is not about some abstract urban environment, it's about the actual place where you live. "Park" or for that matter brick or concrete "plaza" open space (as is stuck in front of some buildings downtown, as well as in front of the National Gallery) becomes in winter "windswept snowscape", plus which people don't USE big open spaces generally, although they like to look out on them. People like the edges. So it really is about park (or other space) *with amenities appropriate to the area, culture and climate". That being said, New Yorkers seem to love their parks and New York is just as sh-t in winter as Ottawa is. But one of the key lessons is not to have this pure greenspace park idea (kind of zoning for parks). Madison Square Park is just a couple blocks of green, but it's a nice little walk and rest PLUS you can grab something to eat at the Shake Shack and sit out at tables.

http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.741917,-73.987588&spn=0.00365,0.006539&t=h&z=18 (http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.741917,-73.987588&spn=0.00365,0.006539&t=h&z=18)

Russell Square Gardens in London is just a couple blocks of green, but it's a nice little walk and rest PLUS you can grab something to eat.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=russell+square+gardens&sll=51.521735,-0.125812&sspn=0.002997,0.006539&ie=UTF8&hq=Russell+Square+Gardens&hnear=Russell+Square+Gardens,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.521839,-0.125927&spn=0.002914,0.006539&t=h&z=18

I think we get confused between park as pure pastoral, which we already have in the Arboretum, and park as "green space to live in public", which we really don't have anywhere in downtown Ottawa. If you look at Dundonald, there's no sense that people would want to spend a lot of time in or around the park - there are zero restaurants or cafes that face on the park. Compare this with Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia (which is not exactly a fantastic downtown overall), where the square is surrounded by cafes and restaurants, as is common in many other cities.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=rittenhouse+square&sll=39.949204,-75.171405&sspn=0.00359,0.006539&ie=UTF8&radius=0.17&rq=1&ev=zo&hq=rittenhouse+square&hnear=&ll=39.949293,-75.171209&spn=0.00359,0.006539&t=h&z=18

So I agree - some grass and a fountain? Um, nice, but it will be covered with snow and the fountain will be shut down in winter anyway. Build something that gives Ottawa citizens something they can use in our climate, but also keep in mind that we should be evolving to more shared public space, in the same way that Copenhagen evolved itself from an indoor culture to an outdoors culture by a stepwise, measured set of policy decisions and reclaiming space.

waterloowarrior
Jan 10, 2010, 9:31 PM
urban design study (http://www.canadascapital.gc.ca/data/2/rec_docs/23675_Urban-Design-Study_E.pdf)for the square

rakerman
Jan 11, 2010, 8:08 PM
urban design study (http://www.canadascapital.gc.ca/data/2/rec_docs/23675_Urban-Design-Study_E.pdf)for the square

"the Node"? seriously?

Interesting to see progression of plans over the years and terminology changing from clear statements like "Union Station removed" to "Distinctive Street with Landmark Node" bureaucratese. "The Node should be recognized for its location within the social-political realm"?

Am I reading it right that they've coloured Place du Portage and Sparks as "major attractions"? Major detractions, maybe.

RTWAP
Jan 12, 2010, 4:30 PM
urban design study (http://www.canadascapital.gc.ca/data/2/rec_docs/23675_Urban-Design-Study_E.pdf)for the square

I like the traffic circle and central monument. The one they've rated highest is my second favourite.