[newflyer]

Hundreds turn out to protest gang violence in Metro Vancouver
By: THE CANADIAN PRESS

SURREY, B.C. - Hundreds of people, including politicians and police, have rallied in suburban Surrey to protest gang violence in Metrol Vancouver.

The region has been reeling from more than a dozen shootings in the past few weeks - several of them deadly.

Twenty-year-old rally organizer Trevor Loke says the goal of the event was to show gangs that people are not afraid.

The rally drew politicians including Surrey Mayor Diane Watts and local MP Dona Cadman, whose own son was killed in a random attack in 1992 and who with her late husband Chuck lobbied for victims rights.

Eileen Mohan, whose son Chris was among six people murdered in a gang-style massacre in a Surrey apartment in 2007, says the public are fed up with the brazen violence.

She says most sentences handed out for violent offences don't fit the crime and that judges must realize violent offenders need to be behind bars.

[newflyer]

Gang crimes is ruining many inner cities ... and I think its past due for our courts and politians to stand up for a peaceful society. Its been far too long of bleeding hearts who treat criminals like victims .. and treat victims like a simple cost of city life.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH .... violent crime is growing out of control and it can be directly attributed to extremely soft laws. All the police in the world won't make a difference if the courts just let the criminals walk, because they "need" another chance. Only to be back in court weeks later ... often with more victims having payed the price.

If you think laws don't play a serious roll .. I can state absolutely that it completely does. When I was in Singapore last year I was absolutely impressed how clean and peaceful this city was with people walking the streets around the clock, knowing there safety was not at stake. The Singapore legal system does not tollerate crime .. and it shows throughout this city/state. If you want to do the crime .. you will do the time in prison .. no question about it.

Canada seems to be the opposite .. where our criminal system is looking not to keep society safe, but to keep those who break serious law inconvinienced to the bare minimum. The young offenders act has in effect created a factory of young criminals ... who see crime as a free ticket to thrills and giggles... and gang life if just as easy as a game. If they are unlucky enough to be caught .. no big deal. No record .. and almost always no jail time. At worst a very weak release conditions are set .. and almost never enforced.

Things need to change ... society is losing out.

[vid]

So how do you explain the level of gang violence in the United States?

[CANAUS]

Yeah, also, many countries in Europe have lower homicide rates than Canada while also having more leniant laws. Simply put, the evidence does not exist that tougher sentencing works in the long-term in decreasing crime. If that were the case, than the US with by far the highest incarceration rate in developed world, would also be the safest. That is obviously, not the case.

And I'm not sure I would want a Singapore type of police state where you are publicly executed for posessing a certain quantity of marijuana! Singapore also doesn't have the same system of liberal democracy found in North America. Their culture is very different.

Now this doesn't mean I'm altogether against tougher sentencing for certain crimes, it's just I believe that resources are better tackling the root of the problems that breeds alot of these crimes. Painting it as solely the fault of the justice system is often a cop out in my mind. It is much more complicated than that.

[cornholio]

History shows that concentrating on prevention and rehabilitation instead of tougher and harder sentences reduces violent crimes. When it comes to organized crime then there is no way of eliminating so long as a multy billion dollar black market exists for drugs, prostitution, guns, etc.

People like the ones marching in Surrey are the bigest threat to society, they are a threat to everything we have accomplished over the years. Panicked, emotional and non thought out overreactions that these people are calling for is a big threat to everything our society stands for.

[Spring2008]

If you think laws don't play a serious roll .. I can state absolutely that it completely does. When I was in Singapore last year I was absolutely impressed how clean and peaceful this city was with people walking the streets around the clock, knowing there safety was not at stake. The Singapore legal system does not tollerate crime .. and it shows throughout this city/state. If you want to do the crime .. you will do the time in prison .. no question about it.
.


Asian countries are also a lot more collectivist, north America is largely an individualistic capitalist Jungle.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Gang crimes is ruining many inner cities ...

You lost any credibility with this ignorant intro. In Canada, "gang crime" is, with few exceptions, NOT an "inner city" phenomenon. It's a suburban one- consider that those protests in "Greater Vancouver" took place in Surrey. Ask somebody from Toronto where they feel safer, in the financial district or at Jane and Wilson. Calgary's "drive bys" (which aren't even "drive bys" as the term is intended) take place on the Deerfoot.

A more punitive criminal justice paradigm might work in Singapore- and I was also there recently and it's a brilliant city- but for that we need an Asian monoculture (and I know Singapore has Tamil and Malay minorities but it's still an overwhelmingly Chinese city) used to a history of authoritarian social control. I'd much rather live in a place like Berlin (returned from there yesterday) where you have a city every bit as culturally rich as Singapore but one where an artistic sort of nihilism abounds AND one that is, for 99.9% of its residents, not a place where violent crime happens to somebody unless he is looking for it.

And come to think of it- that's the case for most parts of Canada. I'll take that over the only alternative we might entertain here, which is the American one- they have MUCH higher rates of violent crime coupled with an insanely punitive (but arbitrary) criminal justice system that now sees more the one percent of its adult population behind bars.

[flar]

Getting tough on crime doesn't work, it probably makes things worse. Reduce the gap between rich and poor instead.

[Coldrsx]

maybe some of that 900 million in security could actually go towards 'securing' the host city and solving some of these crimes prior to the event...

[Wooster]

And here I thought crime was helping cities. Silly me.

[g35]

If you think laws don't play a serious roll .. I can state absolutely that it completely does. When I was in Singapore last year I was absolutely impressed how clean and peaceful this city was with people walking the streets around the clock, knowing there safety was not at stake. The Singapore legal system does not tollerate crime .. and it shows throughout this city/state. If you want to do the crime .. you will do the time in prison .. no question about it.
Not using the evidence that you presented. Your Singapore explanation would only apply if Canada and Singapore were identical in EVERY way except for the punishment for crimes. You and I know that is not the case. Use a more relevant example, like the United States. It's not Canada but it's a hell of a lot closer than Singapore.

[Spocket]

Can it really be any wonder why so many criminals have no fear of the law ?
Just because draconian measures don't work with the general prison population doesn't mean that leniency with inherently criminal people is much better for society as a whole. Right now ,the worst of the worst are simply walking out the door on the heels of the average "I made a mistake and won't do it again" types. Is it really so much to ask for murderers to get locked up for longer than it takes for their drivers license photos to expire ? Between double-time credit , mandatory parole , and lenient sentences to begin with , we're not protected in the least from career criminals. Why do we have to wait for them to grow up and join society especially when they don't want to ?

Sure, a one-size-fits-all solution is no solution at all but with that in mind , leniency all around with rehabilitation as the focus of prisons isn't going to work all the time either. If it all depends on the situation then let's apply that philosophy and do what prisons are supposed to be doing : Keeping society safe from criminals.

[newflyer]

Not using the evidence that you presented. Your Singapore explanation would only apply if Canada and Singapore were identical in EVERY way except for the punishment for crimes. You and I know that is not the case. Use a more relevant example, like the United States. It's not Canada but it's a hell of a lot closer than Singapore.


I am not sure why you want to focus on the United States, but it is just another example of how having weak laws incourages crime.

The lax gun laws doesn't back anyones suggestion that the laws in the US are more strict. Of course they are not ... the US is a product of weak criminal laws, regardless of what some of you may think.

I am not saying that I would want Canada is immitate the Singapore system exactly, but also not to dismiss the effect of coming down hard on crime.

[newflyer]

You lost any credibility with this ignorant intro. In Canada, "gang crime" is, with few exceptions, NOT an "inner city" phenomenon. It's a suburban one- consider that those protests in "Greater Vancouver" took place in Surrey. Ask somebody from Toronto where they feel safer, in the financial district or at Jane and Wilson. Calgary's "drive bys" (which aren't even "drive bys" as the term is intended) take place on the Deerfoot.



While I am not suggesting crime is resticted to the inner city, nor should any crime be ignored, it is a simple fact the crime levels in dense urban centres is higher than the national average. With that said I would want all crime to be the focus. My point was simpily that the image of the innercity of many canadian cities is paying a higher price than the suburbs, not that it doesn't happen everywhere.

In any case society is getting fed up and I believe things are starting to turn... even if some bleeding hearts want to ignore the problems.

[someone123]

While I am not suggesting crime is resticted to the inner city, nor should any crime be ignored, it is a simple fact the crime levels in dense urban centres is higher than the national average. With that said I would want all crime to be the focus. My point was simpily that the image of the innercity of many canadian cities is paying a higher price than the suburbs, not that it doesn't happen everywhere.

Well, Toronto is the biggest and most densely built up urban centre and does not have the highest crime. Regina is a small city and is often one of the worst for violent crime. The correlation between city size/density and crime is very weak in Canada - your assertion is simply incorrect.

Within metro Vancouver, Surrey has a bad reputation, while most parts of the "inner city" have a good reputation and are very wealthy with low crime (the exception is the Downtown Eastside). People who actually live in cities know what the dangerous parts are, and they generally are not the central districts of Canadian cities, they are suburbs. The other simple fact is that far more happens in busy areas than in sleepy bedroom communities. This does not necessarily imply that any given individual is more at risk in one place than in another.

Some people watch too much TV and live in a fantasy land where cities are all gritty 70s Harlem tenements or whatever but that is simply ignorance. They should start observing and thinking for themselves.

[newflyer]

Well, Toronto is the biggest and most densely built up urban centre and does not have the highest crime. Regina is a small city and is often one of the worst for violent crime. The correlation between city size/density and crime is very weak in Canada - your assertion is simply incorrect.

Within metro Vancouver, Surrey has a bad reputation, while most parts of the "inner city" have a good reputation and are very wealthy with low crime (the exception is the Downtown Eastside). People who actually live in cities know what the dangerous parts are, and they generally are not the central districts of Canadian cities, they are suburbs. The other simple fact is that far more happens in busy areas than in sleepy bedroom communities. This does not necessarily imply that any given individual is more at risk in one place than in another.

Some people watch too much TV and live in a fantasy land where cities are all gritty 70s Harlem tenements or whatever but that is simply ignorance. They should start observing and thinking for themselves.

You must be imaging things.. because I never stated that density and crime rates were perfectly correlated. Please show me where I stated such a thing.

What I stated was that the image of inner city's are being hurt by crime. Please try to take the time to actually read what I am saying before making yourself look illiterate. With that said the average crime rates in of the inner portion of the nations largest cities are disportionately higher than the average surrounding suburb or the national average... and this is hurting the image of many inner cities in Canada.

I agree that downtown living is not the horrible experience which is portrayed in the media and holywood, but the actual real crime is not helping either. You only need to examine the crime tracking sites of major cities to see its a real issue, not imagined as you would have me believe. Many Canadian city's are realizing this point and are spending more and more resources to make innercities safer, through increased police patrols and street cameras. Even with more tax dollars going to keep the street safe, the laws still are lacking and need to be updated. Street crime is an issue which is being battled invane.

[giallo]

Please try to take the time to actually read what I am saying before making yourself look illiterate. With that said the average crime rates in of the inner portion of the nations largest cities are disportionately higher than the average surrounding suburb or the national average...


irony

[vid]

Neighbourhood Characteristics and the Distribution of Crime: Edmonton, Halifax and Thunder Bay (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/85-561-m2008010-eng.htm)

Distribution of violent crime in Canadian cities by kernel density, not to scale:

Edmonton, representing the largest cities
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/maps/map1-3-en.gif

Halifax, representing the medium cities
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/maps/map2-2-en.gif

Thunder Bay, representing the smaller cities
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/maps/map3-2-en.gif

All images are copyright Statistics Canada and can be found here (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/5006402-eng.htm). That page provides links to maps that will explain the locations of these crimes. (boundaries of downtowns, locations of schools or industrial areas, etc.)

(I live in the big blue blob in the bottom, right by the islands, if anyone is wondering. Thunder Bay's map is more like a population density map, except for the big blue spot by Boulevard Lake. That's St. Ignatius high school, not many people live there.)

[cranium]

Does it matter if someone is wacked at Jane and Finch or behind the outhouse in Sheepthingy Alberta? Do we want to get tougher on the wackers or not?

[vid]

Places like Sheepthingy Alberta don't exist in Singapore so that doesn't apply to this discussion.

[Cambridgite]

Neighbourhood Characteristics and the Distribution of Crime: Edmonton, Halifax and Thunder Bay (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/85-561-m2008010-eng.htm)

Distribution of violent crime in Canadian cities by kernel density, not to scale:

Interesting. Are the thematic crime maps only available for those cities?

[Acajack]

Neighbourhood Characteristics and the Distribution of Crime: Edmonton, Halifax and Thunder Bay (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/85-561-m2008010-eng.htm)

Distribution of violent crime in Canadian cities by kernel density, not to scale:

Edmonton, representing the largest cities
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/maps/map1-3-en.gif

Halifax, representing the medium cities
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/maps/map2-2-en.gif

Thunder Bay, representing the smaller cities
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/maps/map3-2-en.gif

All images are copyright Statistics Canada and can be found here (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/5006402-eng.htm). That page provides links to maps that will explain the locations of these crimes. (boundaries of downtowns, locations of schools or industrial areas, etc.)

(I live in the big blue blob in the bottom, right by the islands, if anyone is wondering. Thunder Bay's map is more like a population density map, except for the big blue spot by Boulevard Lake. That's St. Ignatius high school, not many people live there.)

Downtowns the world over tend to have higher crime rates not so much because of population density, but because of "licensed establishment" density.

Densely populated urban zones that are not nightlife hotspots nor socio-economically deprived tend to have low crime, often as low or lower than the leafy suburbs.

[vid]

Interesting. Are the thematic crime maps only available for those cities?

Yes, it was a study done by Statscan that was published about a year ago, it was very comprehensive so doing it for all cities would be too much work. I don't know why they chose the cities they did, but they did, and I found it very informative.

Downtowns the world over tend to have higher crime rates not so much because of population density, but because of "licensed establishment" density.

Densely populated urban zones that are not nightlife hotspots nor socio-economically deprived tend to have low crime, often as low or lower than the leafy suburbs.

That could be part of it, but I don't think is it the biggest reason.

If you look at the Thunder Bay map, the teal blob that covers downtown Port Arthur, where an east-west road intersects two north-south roads, has 10 bars within 500m of that intersection. All of them are located in three dissemination areas (the statistical area used for Thunder Bay's study--the other two used census tracts). Most of them are aimed at young people. Crime there isn't very high for a downtown. (And it is the more populous downtown, as well.)

The real reason is income. Downtown Fort William, the big blue blob at the bottom, has an average income of about $16,000. (Downtown Port Arthur is $26,000.) Almost everyone there lives in poverty. In the Northwest End of the city, that's pretty much our Jane and Finch. Within half a kilometre of that intersection is about 600 social housing units. The average age is below 37 and the average income is below $35,000. The detached blob northeast of that intersection, just north of the highway, is a collection of townhouses full of single parent families, mostly native people. Again, they're poor. The string of blue spots in the south end of Port Arthur are social housing groups, with almost 1,000 units between them, as well as the University (the very isolated dark blue spot). The isolated dark spot in the north middle part of Fort William is the college. Due west of that is another large teal blob, and that's Limbrick Place, the largest single social housing development in Northwestern Ontario. The blobs in the southern part of Fort William are all roughly correspondent to more social housing projects.

Some of the blobs in the intercity area are thefts and property damage associated with the businesses in that area (no one lives in intercity) and the spot on the islands is a large abandoned mill that gets broken into and vandalized frequently, that could explain that blob. Also, the large blob near Downtown Fort William is centered on the east side of downtown and the Simpson-Ogden area. Much of the downtown proper, where all the bars are, is teal, like PA. The dark spot where the easternmost north-south road bends is the East End, which has traditionally been among the poorest urban neighbourhoods in Canada. (Simpson-Ogden itself is like a smaller, less in-your-face version of Vancouver's DTES. It is even the east side of a downtown.)

The study made the correlation that crime is highest in the downtowns and decreases as you get away from them, with the exception of low income areas, the university and college and some retail areas. If they had income statistics for each dissemination area, they would probably see a correlation between income as opposed to population density or drinking establishments or location.

I am willing to bet that the outlying blobs in Edmonton and Halifax also represent, if not social housing developments, generally low income neighbourhoods.

And to add to your argument, the white hole between downtown Port Arthur and the northwest blob is one of the densest and wealthiest neighbourhoods in Thunder Bay. Also, all of the upper middle class suburbs are white. There are lots of built up areas with no crime according to that map in Port Arthur.