[miketoronto]

I am downtown almost everyday, but downtown I had to go into the core of downtown as in the Financial District area, and it got me thinking about shopping and dining.

Many American downtowns are full of thousands of workers each day, and yet even with this base of 70,000 to well over 150,000 daily workers plus visitors, most American's CBD's can't support even a small amount of retail.

So what is it with American workers? Do they tend to work more and take less breaks? What do you think the reason is for this?

Its a pretty big contrast. Take Toronto's Financial District, and there are just under a thousand stores, restaurants, and services under the office towers that basically cater mostly just to office workers, and some of the stores have limited weekend hours but not much.
Then say take a look at the Chicago Loop which has even more workers, and they can hardly support much retail at all except for a little on State Street, let alone multiple branches of the same store within blocks of each other like you will find in the Toronto CBD.

Even smaller cities. Edmonton has about the same downtown workforce numbers as places like Detroit and Cincinnati, yet Edmonton has much larger amounts of retail. Keep in mind Edmonton has one of the most decayed downtowns in Canada, and yet office workers support over 300 retail stores.

So it is an interesting question. American CBD's have a ton of people in them on workdays, yet compared to their international counterparts they can't seem to get people to spend money on the lunch hour or after work. Why is this?

[Cirrus]

most American's CBD's can't support even a small amount of retailThat's not even remotely true.

Let's not exaggerate.

[alexjon]

Seattle has tons of shopping options that are generally packed during the workday, except in the slow period from early Jan to mid March. So does Portland. And Ann Arbor, too. New York City had plenty. San Antonio had a lot, but mostly because it's a tourist town. Omaha, even (although Walgreen's + McDonald's + tiny shops... yeah).

Why are canadians so canadian?

[BTinSF]

a

Its a pretty big contrast. Take Toronto's Financial District, and there are just under a thousand stores, restaurants, and services under the office towers that basically cater mostly just to office workers, and some of the stores have limited weekend hours but not much.
Then say take a look at the Chicago Loop which has even more workers, and they can hardly support much retail at all except for a little on State Street, let alone multiple branches of the same store within blocks of each other like you will find in the Toronto CBD.

Even smaller cities. Edmonton has about the same downtown workforce numbers as places like Detroit and Cincinnati, yet Edmonton has much larger amounts of retail. Keep in mind Edmonton has one of the most decayed downtowns in Canada, and yet office workers support over 300 retail stores.

So it is an interesting question. American CBD's have a ton of people in them on workdays, yet compared to their international counterparts they can't seem to get people to spend money on the lunch hour or after work. Why is this?

What on earth are you blathering about, Mike? Chicago has a huge shopping area on Michigan Avenue across a short bridge from the Loop. San Francisco is similar with the principle shopping district, Union Square, next to the financial district--easily walking distance. New York mixes it up more in midtown but then New York has several business and retail districts.

Comparing Edmonton and Detroit is worse than apples and oranges; it's pecans and pomegranates. Edmonton is an oil boomtown, Detroit is a rotting industrial hulk with, as another thread currently active describes, suicidal politics. In it's heyday, Detroit too had downtown shopping but I doubt residents of Detroit's suburbs go downtown unless they have to today or stay any longer than they have to.

It's impossible to answer your question because its premise is entirely wrong. In America's most successful cities, people DO spend money downtown. Before making crazy blanket statements about America, maybe you should see more of it.

[alexjon]

BT, he does this on purpose, since there's no admin rule against "country vs. country" threads ;)

[spyguy]

Then say take a look at the Chicago Loop which has even more workers, and they can hardly support much retail at all except for a little on State Street, let alone multiple branches of the same store within blocks of each other like you will find in the Toronto CBD.


Have you been to LaSalle or Wabash or basically any other street in Chicago? And State Street has more than just a little retail.

[fflint]

San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, Sacramento, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Dallas, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, DC--all apparently *not* American cities, according to miketoronto. Good to know.

[alexjon]

San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, Sacramento, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Dallas, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, DC--all apparently *not* American cities, according to miketoronto. Good to know.

I wonder if he can see Russia from his house?

[MonkeyRonin]

How did I know this was a miketoronto thread when I saw it on the main page?

[JMancuso]

shopping malls, strip centers and amazon.com

[Abner]

I think you guys are being too harsh. I think he has a point especially if you think about grocery stores. (His original post was just about "shopping" which is more questionable.)

Shopping districts next to office districts are not what he's talking about. Michigan Ave in Chicago, aside from being on the opposite end of downtown from where most workers are concentrated, is not oriented toward office workers at all, but is a "destination" district primarily for tourists and affluent people who live nearby. It's basically the same in San Francisco and many other cities.

In Chicago, sure, you have some clothing retailers near the financial district, and the Loop is full of 7-11s and Walgreens, but how about grocery stores? I've never been able to understand why it is apparently impossible to have a grocery store downtown. It wouldn't be convenient for a lot of people, but it would be VERY convenient for lots of others. During the growing season there are two weekly farmers markets in the middle of the Loop that are always packed. People will buy things downtown, even fragile, perishable foods that pretty much have to be cooked at home. So why no stores dedicated to that purpose?

Small hardware stores are a decent example too. In Chicago we have (I think) one hardware store downtown, near the Sears Tower, but a business district of that size should be able to support many more if they concentrate on small things (light bulbs not snow shovels).

[llamaorama]

Its a pretty big contrast. Take Toronto's Financial District, and there are just under a thousand stores, restaurants, and services under the office towers that basically cater mostly just to office workers, and some of the stores have limited weekend hours but not much.

Bingo. Go to Houston and Dallas, you have to go underground into the pedestrian walkways and there are shops and fast food places like that.

Obviously caters to downtown workers, otherwise it wouldn't all close at 4 pm...

[alexjon]

I think you guys are being too harsh. I think he has a point especially if you think about grocery stores.

http://www.pikeplacemarket.org/ - http://www.kressiga.com/

Hardware stores in the Belltown area, Pioneer Square and South of Downtown.

[M II A II R II K]

Makes for an amusing thread at least.

[miketoronto]

I did not say all cities had a problem. But there are a ton of American cities, where you have a ton of people in the CBD each day, yet retail and services lack.
And you have to ask why this is, compared to other world cities.

You can not deny the fact that alot of American cities lack a lot of the basic retail and support services in areas that have a ton of people in a small area each day.

Why did the Downtown L.A. Macy's just close, despite having over 400,000 people in the CBD each workday?

Even Boston which was mentioned is having troubles with Downtown Crossing, and keeping it a viable retail distrcit, despite having over 200,000 office workers within blocks of Downtown Crossing.

Why is downtown Cleveland having problems attracting and keeping retail, despite having over 150,000 people in the CBD each day?

This is not meant to be a bash on particular cities. It is just a thing I noticed while visiting other cities.

I just find it interesting that Toronto's smaller CBD can support say 3 Godiva Chocolate shops in the financial district(let alone the main downtown shopping district which has even more open seven days a week)that cater just to office workers, yet say Chicago's LOOP with even more workers does not seem to, or L.A., etc.

Every big city like Chicago or SF has the main downtown shopping district. I am not talking about that. I am talking about right in the heart of the business district.

It just seems like these areas should be huge money makers with how many people are in a small area each day, yet they are not in most American cities.

Read state of the downtown reports for any number of American downtowns, and the same thing comes up about there not being services or retail to serve the workers and how much these workers could spend. But the answer is why don't they spend?

[JMancuso]

is there any city where the CBD is bustling with stores? chicago's stuff is near the JHC, NYC's is in midtown, the city of london is dead after 5PM, same with LA, the shopping areas in montreal were away from most of the skyscrapers and in houston you can run up main street bare-ass with a donkey and no one would even notice. well, except for the homeless.

[M II A II R II K]

is there any city where the CBD is bustling with stores?

In Toronto there's the huge "The Bay" department store and the large Eaton Centre which is just a block or 2 away from the Financial District if that would count, and there's access to underground shopping under the Financial District too.

[Keep-SA-Lame]

San Antonio has a downtown mall (60 shops I think?), with a department store, plus smaller things like Walgreens, Dollar General, Penners, "boutique" and small scale groceries, and others. Though its not a retail destination like SA's suburban malls, saying downtown San Antonio is devoid of retail would be a stretch.

[theWatusi]

To accurately reflect the content of the first post, the thread title should be changed to "Why are American Cities inferior to their Canadian counterparts?"

Then Mike should be suspended for inciting a vs. argument and the thread locked.

:)

[spyguy]

I just find it interesting that Toronto's smaller CBD can support say 3 Godiva Chocolate shops in the financial district(let alone the main downtown shopping district which has even more open seven days a week)that cater just to office workers, yet say Chicago's LOOP with even more workers does not seem to, or L.A., etc.

I just checked godiva.com and noticed that none of their Toronto stores sell the exclusive "G collection" chocolates. What does this tell you about Canadian cities? ;)

[ColDayMan]

Cincinnati's downtown is mostly restaurants, not shopping, and believe me when I say, those restaurants are bustling. So I can safely say while they may not be shopping at the downtown Saks or Macy's as "they should," they are certainly getting full after 5pm!

[BTinSF]

Shopping districts next to office districts are not what he's talking about. Michigan Ave in Chicago, aside from being on the opposite end of downtown from where most workers are concentrated, is not oriented toward office workers at all, but is a "destination" district primarily for tourists and affluent people who live nearby. It's basically the same in San Francisco and many other cities.


In San Francisco there is a bilevel shopping mall taking up 5 city blocks on the ground floor of Embarcadero Center, a multibuilding high rise office complex in the Financial District owned by Boston Properties. Is downstairs close enough for you?

But it's otherwise a short walk from Montgomery St., the heart of SF's Financial District, to Union Square. And there is plenty of additional shopping lining nearly all the streets you'd use to walk between them.

Do you have studies as to who the people shopping in these places are? Sure a lot of them don't work nearby but a lot of them do. But in the opinion of most San Franciscans, I believe, Embarcadero Center's target market is a bullseye on the workers from the office towers above and nearby.

I'll let those from other cities explain how they work. But I've been to both Toronto and Vancouver and I didn't detect much difference between how they seemed to work and how many American cities, including mine, work.

Embarcadero Center (you can't see the mall podium because of the grayed-out buildings in front)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/EmbarcaderoCenterHighlight.jpg/800px-EmbarcaderoCenterHighlight.jpg
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarcadero_Center

[Gordo]

:previous: Also, it's pretty much impossible to throw a rock in the SF Financial District that doesn't hit a Walgreens. Crocker Galleria, another FiDi mall also comes to mind. The Safeway at the base of the Gateway is right across the street from Embarcadero Center, if a grocery store is needed. Small coffee shops, restaurants, bars, and retail bank branches fill most of the rest of the ground floor space, which are probably more needed by your average office worker during the workday.

I would imagine that most office workers care about a Starbucks or sandwich shop or after-work place for cocktails at the base of their building more than they care about a grocery store or clothing store, since there are grocery stores on the way home and one of the largest clothing shopping areas in the country is a few blocks away.

[Zerton]

In Chicago, sure, you have some clothing retailers near the financial district, and the Loop is full of 7-11s and Walgreens, but how about grocery stores? I've never been able to understand why it is apparently impossible to have a grocery store downtown. It wouldn't be convenient for a lot of people, but it would be VERY convenient for lots of others. During the growing season there are two weekly farmers markets in the middle of the Loop that are always packed. People will buy things downtown, even fragile, perishable foods that pretty much have to be cooked at home. So why no stores dedicated to that purpose?


There are a good amount of downtown supermarkets. There's a jewel at the roosevelt stop off the red and green lines, I know there's another one up on grand and state and there is a Trader Joe's right around the corner. I'm sure there are more farther north as well.

[miketoronto]

I am not talking about SF, and I said there are some American cities that do well with CBD retail.

But overall there is a huge lack of services and retail in American downtowns, despite huge daytime populations.

I do not see why people get so defensive, etc.

It is just a talk on the reasons and what can be done to improve the situation.

Another example is Buffalo. Almost 100,000 if not more people each day in the CBD and Medical District, yet retail can't make it.

[JMancuso]

I am not talking about SF, and I said there are some American cities that do well with CBD retail.

But overall there is a huge lack of services and retail in American downtowns, despite huge daytime populations.

I do not see why people get so defensive, etc.

It is just a talk on the reasons and what can be done to improve the situation.

Another example is Buffalo. Almost 100,000 if not more people each day in the CBD and Medical District, yet retail can't make it.

i think it has a lot to do with the fact that by 5PM, people are anxious to get home because more often than not, they will be sitting in traffic. so hanging out in a store downtown and then facing a long commute back home isn't exactly appealing. i would imagine places like new york, toronto, chicago and san francisco have plenty of residents nearby to sustain retail downtown.

[BTinSF]

I am not talking about SF

Why not? It's American. It's a city.

[flar]

Hamilton is a Canadian city whose downtown is not a retail destination.

[killaviews]

During the growing season there are two weekly farmers markets in the middle of the Loop that are always packed. People will buy things downtown, even fragile, perishable foods that pretty much have to be cooked at home. So why no stores dedicated to that purpose?

Chicago's downtown just got a permanent farmers market of sorts. I haven't been in there yet and don't know how big it is though.

http://www.explorechicago.org/city/en/things_see_do/attractions/tourism/chicago_s_downtown.html

[miketoronto]

Hamilton is a Canadian city whose downtown is not a retail destination.

Even Hamilton however has a large amount of national chain stores that do cater to the downtown workers and even people on weekends. Despite only having something like 30,000 workers, downtown Hamilton has way more retail than cities like Buffalo with over 50,000 workers, Detroit with over 80,000 workers, Cleveland with over 120,000 workers, etc.

So that is why I have asked this question. There has to be something up here why these cities with 50,000 to well over 150,000 workers can't support retail.

Why does downtown Hamilton have more retail offerings than say downtown Memphis which has over 80,000 workers?

Polo, Crate & Barrel, Borders Books, and Williams-Sonoma are or have already left downtown Minneapolis. Sales are not good, despite over 160,000 daily workers, and thousands of others who commute into the downtown core each day. Something is up when you can't make a go of it with that many people coming into a small area everyday.

[JMancuso]

Even Hamilton however has a large amount of national chain stores that do cater to the downtown workers and even people on weekends. Despite only having something like 30,000 workers, downtown Hamilton has way more retail than cities like Buffalo with over 50,000 workers, Detroit with over 80,000 workers, Cleveland with over 120,000 workers, etc.

i would imagine the large majority of downtown workers in buffalo, detroit and cleveland live in the suburbs where as there more people living closer to the CBD in hamilton becuase doubt it has the socio-economic problems (bad schools, urban decay) as the 3 american cities.

[Cirrus]

I think when says "American cities" mike actually means "a certain minority subset of mid-sized economically depressed American cities".

PROTIP for mike: Buffalo is not an average American city.

[lawfin]

I think you guys are being too harsh. I think he has a point especially if you think about grocery stores. (His original post was just about "shopping" which is more questionable.)

Shopping districts next to office districts are not what he's talking about. Michigan Ave in Chicago, aside from being on the opposite end of downtown from where most workers are concentrated, is not oriented toward office workers at all, but is a "destination" district primarily for tourists and affluent people who live nearby. It's basically the same in San Francisco and many other cities.

In Chicago, sure, you have some clothing retailers near the financial district, and the Loop is full of 7-11s and Walgreens, but how about grocery stores? I've never been able to understand why it is apparently impossible to have a grocery store downtown. It wouldn't be convenient for a lot of people, but it would be VERY convenient for lots of others. During the growing season there are two weekly farmers markets in the middle of the Loop that are always packed. People will buy things downtown, even fragile, perishable foods that pretty much have to be cooked at home. So why no stores dedicated to that purpose?

Small hardware stores are a decent example too. In Chicago we have (I think) one hardware store downtown, near the Sears Tower, but a business district of that size should be able to support many more if they concentrate on small things (light bulbs not snow shovels).

Well that is pretty easy until quite recently the Loop was a commercial district not a residential one. Why would a commercial area need multiples of grocery stores or hardware stores. This has been changing and the loop is much more residential than it was 15-20 years ago...even 10 years ago.

By the way Mike there is quite a bit of retail in the loop

[left of center]

Then say take a look at the Chicago Loop which has even more workers, and they can hardly support much retail at all except for a little on State Street, let alone multiple branches of the same store within blocks of each other like you will find in the Toronto CBD.


Are you kidding? I cant even begin pointing out the flaws in this paragraph. There is nothing little about State Street. Then, there's also Michigan Ave, one of the largest retail centers in the country. And there are plenty of stores within downtown Chicago with more than one location... Macy's first and foremost, has two stores less than a mile apart from one another. How many cities in Canada can boast this?

Gimme a break...

[IconRPCV]

Eeesh! SD's downtown is one of the shopping districts of the city.

[dktshb]

[QUOTE=miketoronto;4123286]

Why did the Downtown L.A. Macy's just close, despite having over 400,000 people in the CBD each workday?[QUOTE]

There were 2 downtown Macy's right around the corner from each other literally,which is probably why Macy's chose to close one. There were 2 because one used to be Robinsons- May and merged with Macy's. I think we only need one.

[MNMike]

Mike, its worth pointing out that while Williams Sonoma, Crate and Barrel, and Polo did close in Minneapolis...Brooks Brothers, Len Druskin(a local upscale mens clothier), and some other local and chain shops did open to replace them, Neiman Marcus just signed a new lease, and Macy's remodeled...Not to mention The downtown Target(which has been very successful) just expanded to a full grocery section, and extended their hours. Borders did leave only a year or 2 after opening because the located in a not so popular location for retail...though there is still a 2 story Barnes and Noble 3 blocks away on Nicollet. I would say downtown Minneapolis retail isn't as bad off as you make it sound in that sentence. It does struggle more than us urbanists would like, yes, but considering the current economy, its not doing all that bad.

PS I am going to have to agree with a lot of posters in here and say that your analysis of downtown Chicago is pretty far off, not to mention some other cities.

[pdxtex]

downtown workers go to the CBD to work, not shop. CBD's with lots of shopping probably have workers and large central city populations....

[killaviews]

Chicago’s CBD has the retail it needs. It seems CBD’s only attract certain kinds of retailers: fast food lunch spots, full-service business lunch spot, happy hour bars, convenient/drug stores, gift shops/places exec’s go to get their secretary a gift (sweet shop, flower shop), stationary store, copy/business center (Fedex Kinkos), gyms, and business attire and accessories.

A CBD won’t support a Create and Barrel because people don’t shop for sofas on their lunch breaks. I think retailers understand people don’t shop where they work. Also it seems CBD are usually close to the main shopping district, so if you want to check out sofas at lunch it’s only a few minutes away. Sometimes it is really close/practically in the CBD - State Street in the Loop or 5th Ave in midtown.

Some cities lose or can’t support retailers because they are on decline. I don’t think it’s anything about CBD workers, they just don’t shop that much during lunch breaks or after work.

[kilbride102]

How long are Canadian lunch breaks to do all this shopping? ;)

It would have to be at least a two hour siesta to take the elevator down, wait in line for food, eat, walk to shopping destination, shop, walk back to work, go up elevator. People go to work to work not shop. They shop at other times and after a long day they just want to go home. But that's just me.

[dchan]

How about we cut the bull here and say what we mean here, mike - Why don't downtown workers shop in medium-sized, depressed rustbelt American cities which formerly supported large industrial and manufacturing businesses? Because we know you don't mean Chicago, New York, San Francisco, et al.

It's not a bad question to ask and discuss, admittedly, but let's be a little more specific in our comparisons here, mike. Which cities in Canada and the U.S. are you trying to compare here? Give us a bone here, mike.......

To answer what I think is your intended question (see first paragraph): if you believe that retail businesses specifically target and cater to office workers, then you know absolute diddly-squat about the retail business. Retail companies have always targeted one demographic of consumer in particular: housewives. Why? They were not just the steadiest consumers but also also the largest consumer out there (so the thinking went).

Historically, downtown workers have always been second-class consumers in retailers eyes, even during the heyday of downtown shopping districts in the early 1900s. They were always viewed as capricious and unpredictable consumers who didn't buy a lot. To whom would be easier to cater towards: someone who buys essentially the same thing and in large quantities for her family, or someone whose tastes could change on the dime and who didn't seem to buy all that much? Well, at least that's the thinking behind retail decisions historically.

Nowadays, I don't think the thought process has changed that much. Yes, the desired demographic you hear about nowadays is the so-called male 19-49 (or whatever) demographic, but that's only because this group is supposed to be the last untapped demographic out there: retailers are trying to figure out a formula to attract this group of consumers consistently. That said, do you see any grocery stores or large department stores downtown anymore in these old rustbelt cities for the most part? No, because they've all moved where housewives have moved to and shopped at: to the suburbs and suburban shopping centers. That, to me, says that retail business are still clinging to their traditional perceptions about consumers and demographics. And in many ways, this perception has proven to be true.

[tocoto]

The biggest problem in Boston's DT crossing area is that the largest retail building was torn down for a huge office and retail complex, but work on the project was temporarily stopped due to the credit crises. The area still has loads of retail, restaurants, live theater and a huge movie complex.

[ardecila]

I'm gonna guess that you're noticing an illusory trend. Toronto is the exception to the rule because its downtown shopping is interspersed with office towers. Office workers in Toronto are not going shopping the way you envision, though. Most people who are going to their 9-to-5 are not doing any major shopping. The stores instead draw a totally separate crowd. Occasionally, an office worker may venture into one of the stores, perhaps to buy a gift or go Christmas shopping. By and large, though, shopping is something that people do on their leisure time, not during, before, or immediately after work.

Here in Chicago, and in most other American cities, the downtown is separated into office and residential/shopping districts. This is not some inherent anti-urban part of the American psyche. It's merely the forces of development, combined with city planners, realizing that shopping works best when its concentrated and not sprinkled among office high-rise canyons. Office districts support a different kind of retail; lunch spots, banks, coffee shops, business clothiers, cell phone shops, dry cleaners, etc. Basically all places to facilitate tasks that workers can do on their lunch break.

Also, I don't understand your remark about State Street. It's lined with department stores and other, smaller stores. A ton more is on its way when Block 37 is finished. State Street alone is probably more retail than Cleveland or Detroit has in their downtown area (no offense to either city...)

[ardecila]

I just checked godiva.com and noticed that none of their Toronto stores sell the exclusive "G collection" chocolates. What does this tell you about Canadian cities? ;)

It tells you that Toronto doesn't have any real Gs. :haha:

[SpongeG]

Americans and Canadians do not share the same work ethic

Americans work

Canadians pretend to work while they dash out to shop in the abundance of retail options surrounding their work places

[mhays]

Retail companies have always targeted one demographic of consumer in particular: housewives. Why? They were not just the steadiest consumers but also also the largest consumer out there (so the thinking went).

Historically, downtown workers have always been second-class consumers in retailers eyes, even during the heyday of downtown shopping districts in the early 1900s. They were always viewed as capricious and unpredictable consumers who didn't buy a lot. To whom would be easier to cater towards: someone who buys essentially the same thing and in large quantities for her family, or someone whose tastes could change on the dime and who didn't seem to buy all that much? Well, at least that's the thinking behind retail decisions historically.

Nowadays, I don't think the thought process has changed that much. Yes, the desired demographic you hear about nowadays is the so-called male 19-49 (or whatever) demographic, but that's only because this group is supposed to be the last untapped demographic out there: retailers are trying to figure out a formula to attract this group of consumers consistently. That said, do you see any grocery stores or large department stores downtown anymore in these old rustbelt cities for the most part? No, because they've all moved where housewives have moved to and shopped at: to the suburbs and suburban shopping centers. That, to me, says that retail business are still clinging to their traditional perceptions about consumers and demographics. And in many ways, this perception has proven to be true.


Downtowns can be successful by playing to a variety of categories. The successful retail downtowns tend to be the ones that are strong in most or all of these:
--Tourists
--Business travelers / conventioneers
--Downtown residents (ones with spending money)
--Other residents inside the first ring of malls (with spending money)
--Downtown workers
--Downtown students
--Suburbanites who visit downtown to shop or for events

A mix of these groups is very helpful. Each has a different profile regarding the times of day and days of the week they tend to shop, and each has a different profile for what they tend to buy. Without that mix, you get large gaps in the types of stores you have. Also, as we're learning now, a mix helps you moderate the ups and downs that can occur when you overrely on one demographic, for example tourism.

Tourists, business travelers, and conventioneers are a huge part of the better downtowns' retail sales, and deserve more respect in that regard. While a condo might be occupied by a 5-times-a-year clothes shopper, a hotel room can generate a hundred shopping trips per year, whether it's a conventioneer buying a necklace or some t-shirts, or a couple from a smaller city who considers the trip their annual major shopping binge.

Some types of retail is inherently difficult in a downtown, particularly most types of big box retail. Big boxes have a tough time fitting most urban blocks, and a tough time paying the rents that justify urban construction. Even if the block is bigger than the store, with downtown land prices you generally need to go tall, and you don't want a store broken up by elevator cores and huge columns. Furthermore, bulk buying tends to involve cars, and parking is extremely expensive to build in a downtown. All of this can be overcome occasionally by extreme demand (Manhattan), willingness to lose money (Minneapolis Target), extra-large blocks (Vancouver Costco), or special "urban" formats focusing on smaller purchases.

[mhays]

I'm gonna guess that you're noticing an illusory trend. Toronto is the exception to the rule because its downtown shopping is interspersed with office towers. Office workers in Toronto are not going shopping the way you envision, though. Most people who are going to their 9-to-5 are not doing any major shopping. The stores instead draw a totally separate crowd. Occasionally, an office worker may venture into one of the stores, perhaps to buy a gift or go Christmas shopping. By and large, though, shopping is something that people do on their leisure time, not during, before, or immediately after work.

Here in Chicago, and in most other American cities, the downtown is separated into office and residential/shopping districts. This is not some inherent anti-urban part of the American psyche. It's merely the forces of development, combined with city planners, realizing that shopping works best when its concentrated and not sprinkled among office high-rise canyons. Office districts support a different kind of retail; lunch spots, banks, coffee shops, business clothiers, cell phone shops, dry cleaners, etc. Basically all places to facilitate tasks that workers can do on their lunch break.

Also, I don't understand your remark about State Street. It's lined with department stores and other, smaller stores. A ton more is on its way when Block 37 is finished. State Street alone is probably more retail than Cleveland or Detroit has in their downtown area (no offense to either city...)

Great post.

London is a great example. The Square Mile is a desert for retail. The big retail areas are elsewhere.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

How did I know this was a miketoronto thread when I saw it on the main page?

seriously. his threads are so obvious. it is fun reading the responses though.

[bnk]

How long are Canadian lunch breaks to do all this shopping? ;)

It would have to be at least a two hour siesta to take the elevator down, wait in line for food, eat, walk to shopping destination, shop, walk back to work, go up elevator. People go to work to work not shop. They shop at other times and after a long day they just want to go home. But that's just me.


Yes Canadians regularly take 2 hours siestas usually from noon until 2 PM. When they are not shopping and eating they usually are asleep. You can pretty much forget about doing any international business during their siestas because their phone goes right into voice-mail. Apparently Canadians relish their extended break midday break and they really do not want to be woken up from a reenergizing sleep if they are not shopping, dining, or being entertained instead.

[JordanL]

Portland's CBD is nothing but retail on the first floor of every building.

In fact, it's a law. The City of Portland doesn't approve build permits or improvements downtown unless it includes street level retail.

[rsbear]

To accurately reflect the content of the first post, the thread title should be changed to "Why are American Cities inferior to their Canadian counterparts?"

Then Mike should be suspended for inciting a vs. argument and the thread locked.

:)

Agreed

[rsbear]

Downtowns can be successful by playing to a variety of categories. The successful retail downtowns tend to be the ones that are strong in most or all of these:
--Tourists
--Business travelers / conventioneers
--Downtown residents (ones with spending money)
--Other residents inside the first ring of malls (with spending money)
--Downtown workers
--Downtown students
--Suburbanites who visit downtown to shop or for events

A mix of these groups is very helpful. Each has a different profile regarding the times of day and days of the week they tend to shop, and each has a different profile for what they tend to buy. Without that mix, you get large gaps in the types of stores you have. Also, as we're learning now, a mix helps you moderate the ups and downs that can occur when you overrely on one demographic, for example tourism.

Tourists, business travelers, and conventioneers are a huge part of the better downtowns' retail sales, and deserve more respect in that regard. While a condo might be occupied by a 5-times-a-year clothes shopper, a hotel room can generate a hundred shopping trips per year, whether it's a conventioneer buying a necklace or some t-shirts, or a couple from a smaller city who considers the trip their annual major shopping binge.

Some types of retail is inherently difficult in a downtown, particularly most types of big box retail. Big boxes have a tough time fitting most urban blocks, and a tough time paying the rents that justify urban construction. Even if the block is bigger than the store, with downtown land prices you generally need to go tall, and you don't want a store broken up by elevator cores and huge columns. Furthermore, bulk buying tends to involve cars, and parking is extremely expensive to build in a downtown. All of this can be overcome occasionally by extreme demand (Manhattan), willingness to lose money (Minneapolis Target), extra-large blocks (Vancouver Costco), or special "urban" formats focusing on smaller purchases.

Copying from one of your textbooks again, Mike?

[mhays]

Are you saying I'm miketoronto?! Just not paying attention?

Or are you just confused about mike vs. Matt, in which case thanks for thinking my post is textbook worthy.

[rsbear]

Are you saying I'm miketoronto?! Just not paying attention?

Or are you just confused about mike vs. Matt, in which case thanks for thinking my post is textbook worthy.

Whoops - sorry, yes, I confused you with Mike. And, yes, I truly did think the post was (paraphrased) from a textbook!

[JordanL]

As a side note, Portland has several "big box" stores in its downtown...

A Fred Meyer (same as a Kroger), two Safeways, and two Wild Oats...

One of these Safeways is being redeveloped with a residential tower on top of it, last I heard.

[AdrianXSands]

Have you been to LaSalle or Wabash or basically any other street in Chicago? And State Street has more than just a little retail.

yeah... i have no idea what this guy is talking about, maybe neither does he, but downtown chicago has tons of retail. just because it isn't the epicenter of all shopping doesn't mean it's an office tower wasteland of nothing more than walgreens and eateries. :koko:

[Attrill]

yeah... i have no idea what this guy is talking about, maybe neither does he, but downtown chicago has tons of retail. just because it isn't the epicenter of all shopping doesn't mean it's an office tower wasteland of nothing more than walgreens and eateries. :koko:

Exactly. To see what Chicago has for downtown retail anyone can use Google Maps streetview and just follow State St. from Monroe up to the river, then cut over to Michigan Ave. and follow that North. Chicago has a vital retail district along the Eastern edge of the CBD, as well as a lot stores mixed into the CBD. There is LOADS of retail.

Unfortunately I don't think it counts as retail in Mike's book since there are only two Macy's and a Nordstrom's. Only Department stores, and possibly Godiva stores, count.

[BTinSF]

Virgin Megastores is closing all locations including those on Times Square, Michigan Ave. and SF's Union Square (NY has a Union Sq. too). Actually shopping for CDs may have once been a kind of shopping Americans did do on lunch hour. But now they just download at their desks. Should we all be suicidal to lose these stores?

[tdawg]

I wish miketoronto would just.go.away.forever. most of your posts are inane and pointless baiting.

[Urban Zombie®]

^
You don't appreciate the free entertainment?

[JMancuso]

I wish miketoronto would just.go.away.forever. most of your posts are inane and pointless baiting.

no one forces you to open his threads.

[MolsonExport]

another thread based in anecdotal third-hand impressions, not in fact.

[miketoronto]

Office workers in Toronto are not going shopping the way you envision, though. Most people who are going to their 9-to-5 are not doing any major shopping. The stores instead draw a totally separate crowd. Occasionally, an office worker may venture into one of the stores,


I have to dissagree. In college I worked for stores in the Financial District under those office towers, and the majority of shoppers are office workers. You see this even more when you see the hours of operation, in which most stores do not open on weekends, while stores 5 blocks up in the main downtown shopping district are open seven days a week.
These stores do cater to the office workers, and they are a large amount of people.


Also, I don't understand your remark about State Street. It's lined with department stores and other, smaller stores. A ton more is on its way when Block 37 is finished. State Street alone is probably more retail than Cleveland or Detroit has in their downtown area (no offense to either city...)
[/quote]

I was just comparing two similar cities for reference. The Chicago Loop has much less retail than the Toronto Financial District despite the Loop being larger. This is not a bash or anything. It is just stating a difference.

I really don't see what the big deal is about this thread. I think it is a great question to ask, as to why places populated with the largest cluster of people in one area in their metro areas can't support more services and retail than they do.

It does not matter where people live. The fact of the matter is these downtowns even in the rust belt have a huge number of very well paid people in these districts each day, and yet they stuggle, while other cities their size support much more in the CBD's.

I personally think it is a very good question to ask.

I have worked downtown for over 5 years, and it is totally normal to see co-workers in the office decide to make a shopping trip on the lunch hour or even skip a couple trains after work and go shopping for an hour. Some would even come in early and go shopping in the main downtown shopping area before coming into work.

The question is why don't people do this in other places like say Buffalo, Cleveland. This mostly has to do with the smaller cities. However even bigger ones like Chicago and Philly do not have as much services and retail in the CBD compared to the amount of people down there each day.

I did find this interesting quote from Buffalo Place Inc on their report for downtown retail. This has to do with the downtown mall in Buffalo which is mostly empty.

"Many of the stores that were in the mall had the highest sales per square foot in the region, even with limited hours typical of a CBD location."

"Current employees describe retail opportunities as the number one amenity they want to see created in Downtown."

"The Downtown workforce has $100 million of buying power available for retail markets Downtown, only a fourth of which is actually spent there."

[Soaring_Higher]

I get what you are trying to say Mike. I work in Chicago's loop, but I hardly ever buy anything other than lunch. I have never purchased any clothing or "big items" in the city.

I commute everyday, and really don't like dragging things home on the train. Also, some prices and sales tax is too high. I know a lot of fellow co-workers who live in the suburbs and buy things on their lunch hours or go to the farmers market at Daley Center, so I am not trying to say that I am in the majority.

I am going to be purchasing a bunch of video equipment, but will make the purchase in the suburbs basically because I can save money of tax. County board chairman Todd Stroger has done a marvelous job at trying to keep business in Chicago and cook country...

[pottebaum]

Mike--where is Toronto's largest shopping district/street located?

[mhays]

As a side note, Portland has several "big box" stores in its downtown...

A Fred Meyer (same as a Kroger), two Safeways, and two Wild Oats...

One of these Safeways is being redeveloped with a residential tower on top of it, last I heard.

Supermarkets aren't big boxes.

If they were (Fred Meyer maybe), they're either smaller formats, big blocks (vs. Portland's typical 40,000 sf), or multi-level. Multi-level can work but only in cases of very heavy demand, or willingness to lose money.

Further, I'm not talking about Downtown fringes. This thread is about CBDs only, where land prices force every development to go tall.

[urbanactivistTX]

I did not say all cities had a problem. But there are a ton of American cities, where you have a ton of people in the CBD each day, yet retail and services lack.
And you have to ask why this is, compared to other world cities.

Or you could ask yourself "why don't all of the other countries around the world have large swaths of suburbia stretching in every direction from the city limits?? The US took a decidedly different developmental route than other countries in the 20th century. It's also why we have an archaic rail system that is just now under review.


You can not deny the fact that alot of American cities lack a lot of the basic retail and support services in areas that have a ton of people in a small area each day.

Why did the Downtown L.A. Macy's just close, despite having over 400,000 people in the CBD each workday?
Way over-inflated... it's more like 150,000 daytime workers in LA's downtown. And I think there was actually more than one Macy's in downtown. One got closed, and one is still open. Macy's started an empirical nationwide campaign to cover every corner of the US in 2006, buying out good local department store that (IMO) could have done much better in the downturn. Macy's is paying a big price for its ridiculous overgrowth now.



Every big city like Chicago or SF has the main downtown shopping district. I am not talking about that. I am talking about right in the heart of the business district.

It just seems like these areas should be huge money makers with how many people are in a small area each day, yet they are not in most American cities.

Read state of the downtown reports for any number of American downtowns, and the same thing comes up about there not being services or retail to serve the workers and how much these workers could spend. But the answer is why don't they spend?

If you had visited ANY downtown in the US in the 1940s, you would have found all of the above... grocery stores, a significant retail hub and all of the major corporations. In this regard, the US and Canada developed in a different way after WWII. But b/c of where Canada is, Canadians can't spread out as much anyway. You're not going to find boomtowns and suburbs occurring in upper Nunavut.

[miketoronto]

No, downtown LA actually has over 400,000 daily workers in its downtown according to the downtown improvment district reports. Off this 400,000 150,000 are private sector workers, while the rest are government workers.

That is a lot of people in a small area.

Anyway I still think its an interesting question. Go into Toronto's CBD for example, and there is a an entire food hall area where people pick up fresh fish, meats, veggies, choose from a whole array of bakeries, etc.
This is in addition to the 1000 other stores and service in the CBD.

I just find it interesting that other cities can't seem to support this to such a high degree.

[Steely Dan]

yay! another idiocy festival from miketoronto.

i was getting worried, it had been awhile since we had one........... phew ;)

[miketoronto]

I really don't see why people get so upset about this subject.
If you don't want to admit that there is a lack of services and retail in certain cities than fine. But there is no need to get upset or think this is not a question to ask.

Actually I was just talking to someone who just got back from Chicago and this is what partly sparked this question as one of the first things they said was the Loop had such little retail and other options besides office towers compared to the CBDs they are use to here in Toronto or other cities.

Chicago is one of the better ones in terms of having stuff, but go to the midsized cities like I said before and you have to ask why there is very little despite having a huge amount of people with good incomes coming into such a small area each day.

So get mad all you want or upset but I think it is a good question to ask and to come up with ways to spark a revival.

Just for reference I did go to the Chicago Loop Alliance website, and the Loop has 2,282,000 square feet of retail. Considering that the Macy's store is about 800,000 sq feet, you see that the retail in the loop is actually pretty low for such a busy area.

So that is all I am saying. It just seems like these places do not support as much services as they could.

There is a large amount of pent up spending dollars in many of these downtowns that is not being met, and could be met by retailers and services.

[Steely Dan]

^ i'm not mad or upset, mike, i'm merely laughing at you. :laugh:

[MolsonExport]

It is not the subject; it is the approach.

[Crawford]

Mike, this is another joke of a thread.

Chicago's Loop definitely has more retail than Toronto's financial district. There is no equivalent to State Street in Toronto's financial district, and there is no department store (State Street has a huge Macy's).

Yes, Toronto has more underground retail, but it's just crappy dry cleaners, donut shops, banks and the like. There is no high fashion whatsoever in the underground corridors. And those stores are basically only open 8-4 M-F.

Toronto's leading upscale shopping district is on Bloor and in neighboring Yorkville, which is quite a ways from the financial district. In contrast, Chicago's leading upscale retail is across a short river.

Toronto's lower-end shopping district is at the Eaton Center and on Yonge around Dundas, a few blocks north of the financial district. In contrast, Chicago's leading downscale retail is in the Loop itself.

SF also has much more downtown retail than Toronto.

And NYC; that would be a joke of a comparison. Midtown alone probably has five times the amount of retail.

[brickell]

There is a large amount of pent up spending dollars in many of these downtowns that is not being met, and could be met by retailers and services.

I'll attempt a serious question. You make claim that this pent up demand is not being met. Why do you think that is? Are you trying to say that American retailers are stupid or that there's something else keeping these people from the products they so desire? I'm sure you'd be more than welcome by the City of Buffalo to open any number of shops downtown. Why do you think people are not doing it?

[alexjon]

The Financial District in Toronto has a Walkscore of about 92-95 (less around Ryerson University, or whatever that tiny Community College is), versus 100 in the CBD of Seattle.

SEATTLE WINS!!

[Strange Meat]

Let's see. With the exception of a supermarket (though there is a King Soopers less than a half mile away), there really isn't a lot of retail here. Just the 16th street mall. And Larimer Square.

Yeah, no retail supported at all.

I think something else to keep in mind, particularly right now is that retail in this country is hurting everywhere. Also, the idea of using dying rust belt cities as your examples of "normal" in America is, well, somewhat flawed, at best.

[BTinSF]

Go into Toronto's CBD for example, and there is a an entire food hall area where people pick up fresh fish, meats, veggies, choose from a whole array of bakeries, etc.
This is in addition to the 1000 other stores and service in the CBD.

I just find it interesting that other cities can't seem to support this to such a high degree.

I realize we're not allowed to mention the "SF" city, but it has a food hall in the Ferry Building where ferry commuters (or anyone else--the Fi-Di is blocks away) can buy meat, fish, produce, artisanal bread and lots of other stuff on the way home: http://www.ferrybuildingmarketplace.com/ . It also has a gourmet supermarket with all that on Market St. near the Fi-Di plus numerous other smaller specialty markets like the growing Ferrari chain of Italian delis.

[alexjon]

I realize we're not allowed to mention the "SF" city, but it has a food hall in the Ferry Building where ferry commuters can buy meat, fish, produce, artisanal bread and lots of other stuff on the way home: http://www.ferrybuildingmarketplace.com/ . We also have a gourmet supermarket with all that on Market St. near the Fi-Di.

That mystery city seems far more important and way cooler than this Toronto place.

What's the Walkscore?

[Attrill]

I really don't see why people get so upset about this subject.
If you don't want to admit that there is a lack of services and retail in certain cities than fine. But there is no need to get upset or think this is not a question to ask.......
Just for reference I did go to the Chicago Loop Alliance website, and the Loop has 2,282,000 square feet of retail. Considering that the Macy's store is about 800,000 sq feet, you see that the retail in the loop is actually pretty low for such a busy area.


People aren't upset, they're saying you're wrong. You have not presented any numbers or way to compare things, it is just a random idea you have backed up by some pretty slim anecdotal evidence. Do you have any meaningful stats for Toronto or Chicago?

Looking at the Chicago Loop alliance (http://www.chicagoloopalliance.com/economicstudy.php) site you mention aboe you can find the following information for State St. alone:

50% of State St. shoppers work in Chicago, with 40% working in the CBD
$99.7 Million was spent on shopping (no meals) in 2002.

This is for a 9 block stretch of one street, and does not include any of Michigan Ave. or the CBD areas like River North and West Loop. Here (http://www.heartlandrebusiness.com/articles/OCT07/highlight1.html) is a decent overview of retail in the CBD for 2007. Here (http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=32948) is an update from 2008.

Saying there is no CBD retail in Chicago "except for a little on State Street" shows a real lack of knowledge about the Chicago CBD.

[Steely Dan]

WARNING

if this nonsense devolves into a chicago vs. toronto retard parade, it's gone.

[Crawford]

I think the real question is why does Toronto have so little retail? :)

I count two department stores in downtown Toronto, and one is Sears. Even worse, there are a grand total of zero department stores that aren't part of a shopping mall.

Why is that, Mike? Why can't Toronto support a single freestanding department store? :shrug:

In contrast, I count six in San Franciso, eight in Chicago, and eleven in Manhattan.

Heck, Toronto doesn't even have as many department stores as downtown Minneapolis! And it has exactly the same number as Cincy! (and Cincy has Saks, no less).

Or maybe we should compare downtown Toronto to downtown White Plains, a New York suburb of about 60.000 people.

Department stores in downtown White Plains: 7 (Saks, Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Macy's, Sears, Target, Walmart)

Department Stores in downtown Toronto: 2 (Hudson Bay, Sears)

Mike, seems like Toronto will need a big boost downtown to compete with the likes of White Plains! :yes:

[Soaring_Higher]

There will also be a french-style "Metra Market" built in the next year or two on Canal Street.

[Via Chicago]

There will also be a french-style "Metra Mart" built in the next year or two on Canal Street.

Yup
http://chicago.metramarket.com/web_html/index.htm

[waterloowarrior]

I think the real question is why does Toronto have so little retail? :)

I count two department stores in downtown Toronto, and one is Sears. Even worse, there are a grand total of zero department stores that aren't part of a shopping mall.

Why is that, Mike? Why can't Toronto support a single freestanding department store? :shrug:

In contrast, I count six in San Franciso, eight in Chicago, and eleven in Manhattan.

Heck, Toronto doesn't even have as many department stores as downtown Minneapolis! And it has exactly the same number as Cincy! (and Cincy has Saks, no less).

Or maybe we should compare downtown Toronto to downtown White Plains, a New York suburb of about 60.000 people.

Department stores in downtown White Plains: 7 (Saks, Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Macy's, Sears, Target, Walmart)

Department Stores in downtown Toronto: 2 (Hudson Bay, Sears)

Mike, seems like Toronto will need a big boost downtown to compete with the likes of White Plains! :yes:

Toronto is not "world class" enough to have all those department stores :banana:

[Soaring_Higher]

Funny, right from the homepage of Metra Market's website:

Located in downtown Chicago’s burgeoning West Loop, the development will be the heart of retail activity for the area’s ever-expanding residential population, corporate headquarters and central business district. Metramarket’s authentic French Market and variety of restaurants will attract downtown workers, destination shoppers and diners, as well as tourists.

[Tom In Chicago]

I know what Mike is getting at. . . and I know why Steely Dan is laughing at him. . be that as it may, I would swap the retail options in downtown Toronto over the retail we have here in Chicago any day. . .

. . .

[LA21st]

Are you kidding? I cant even begin pointing out the flaws in this paragraph. There is nothing little about State Street. Then, there's also Michigan Ave, one of the largest retail centers in the country. And there are plenty of stores within downtown Chicago with more than one location... Macy's first and foremost, has two stores less than a mile apart from one another. How many cities in Canada can boast this?

Gimme a break...

Really. River North has a Bloomingdale's Home store along with one of the larger Bloomingdales further north On Michigan Ave. I haven't been to SF, but outside of NYC, downtown Chicago has more people going in out of stores outside of work hours that I have seen.

Michigan (south of Mag Mile)near MillPark has crowds on Saturdays that resembles rush hour for blocks. It is unreal how busy it is getting.

[BTinSF]

That mystery city seems far more important and way cooler than this Toronto place.

What's the Walkscore?

The walkscore in the Fi-Di is 99: http://www.walkscore.com/rankings/San_Francisco

In what the site calls "downtown" it is 98.

90% of city residents live in neighborhoods with walk scores of 70 or better.

[slide_rule]

mike is painting with a broad brush, and he set up a false dichotomy between the positives of toronto and dysfunctional downtowns elsewhere. at the same time, many of the responses have devolved into a lame dissection of toronto.

instead of having an idiotic downtown comparison, it'd be more productive to discuss the policies of sprawl and auto-dependency and their cumulative effect on the built area.

[1Post2]

it's all about trips...you separate them more than you think...you go to work, or you go out to shop, or you go out for entertainment, but you rarely combine them, unless we're talking about stopping by the grocery on the way home from work.

downtowns must serve as a retail destination by themselves, not as a work destination with ancillary retail. the latter doesn't exist, unless you're talking about places to grab lunch.

my hometown of Denver has tons of offices and entertainment destinations, but relatively weak retail. 130,000 workers can't support a department store, but 30,000 nearby residents who occasionally make shopping trips could.

sorry if this has been said...i'm admittedly just tacking my opinion on without reading everyone else's.

[BTinSF]

mike is painting with a broad brush, and he set up a false dichotomy between the positives of toronto and dysfunctional downtowns elsewhere. at the same time, many of the responses have devolved into a lame dissection of toronto.

instead of having an idiotic downtown comparison, it'd be more productive to discuss the policies of sprawl and auto-dependency and their cumulative effect on the built area.

Possibly because the relevancy of auto-dependency, at least, is dubious. I'd argue that among the reasons people working in offices downtown don't do more shopping there at lunch or other times (to the extent that's the case) is that they don't want to have to lug purchases home on public transportation. Being carless in the unmentionable city, I can tell you it's a challenge, and an increasing one as I age, to lug bags of groceries or other bulky purchases on crowded busses and trains. People who drive downtown actually have a leg up in this regard.

I also don't see the relevancy of sprawl. We are talking about people who ARE downtown for other reasons so the fact that they may live many miles outside the city also shouldn't stop them from shopping downtown if they were so inclined.

I think the real issue here is that people tend to do most of their shopping near where they live and mostly during their free time, not business hours, so cities with copious downtown shopping tend to be cities with downtown residents.

[theman23]

I think the real question is why does Toronto have so little retail? :)

I count two department stores in downtown Toronto, and one is Sears. Even worse, there are a grand total of zero department stores that aren't part of a shopping mall.

Why is that, Mike? Why can't Toronto support a single freestanding department store? :shrug:

In contrast, I count six in San Franciso, eight in Chicago, and eleven in Manhattan.

Heck, Toronto doesn't even have as many department stores as downtown Minneapolis! And it has exactly the same number as Cincy! (and Cincy has Saks, no less).

Or maybe we should compare downtown Toronto to downtown White Plains, a New York suburb of about 60.000 people.

Department stores in downtown White Plains: 7 (Saks, Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Macy's, Sears, Target, Walmart)

Department Stores in downtown Toronto: 2 (Hudson Bay, Sears)

Mike, seems like Toronto will need a big boost downtown to compete with the likes of White Plains! :yes:

I'm not sure what you consider to be downtown Toronto, but there are definitely more than two department stores in what most people consider to be downtown.

Also, which one of the Hudson Bay locations is inside a shopping mall? As far as I know, both of the downtown Hudson Bay locations have their own buildings. The Queen Street location has a connection to the Eaton Centre, but it is not a mall tenant.

[slide_rule]

^oh lord, BT.

auto-centrism combined with profit-driven sprawl (sprawl needs widespread car ownership to succeed) have combined to enable all sorts of levittowns, office parks, and suburban malls to succeed. stunted or stillborn downtown areas are but one result. you could argue that chicago or new york or san francisco or *gasp* even toronto have vibrant downtowns. but you'd also have to recognize that these cities were around before our autocentric, suburban development patterns became standard. contrast this with the newer boomtowns.

all this leads to another point; superficial city vs. city debates about the hippest stores and the tallest buildings take precedence over conversations about the underlying reasons for various types of development.

[emathias]

I know what Mike is getting at. . . and I know why Steely Dan is laughing at him. . be that as it may, I would swap the retail options in downtown Toronto over the retail we have here in Chicago any day. . .

. . .

I was in Toronto for a wedding, and needed a different tie. I spent over an hour trying to find a tie in the Financial District of Toronto. Later, when I walked from Chinatown back to my hotel near the Financial District, I saw very little retail. From that trip I liked Toronto, but "Downtown Toronto" struck me as relatively boring and quiet compared to the Loop in Chicago (where I work in and live nearby). Toronto has an advantage in the way it has better clustering of activity near its non-downtown subway stations than Chicago does. I love how when you fly into Toronto you see the main skyline, but then little clusters of mid- and high-rises surrounding transit stations. I wish Chicago's zoning worked to allow that here, too.

I also think that comparing a place like Chicago or Toronto or SF to smaller cities is kinda silly. A lot of American cities have much more distributed commercial businesses than the more famous cities do. Just because there's a "downtown" doesn't mean there's proportionately that many people working there. And in cities where the downtowns are supported by drivers, you run into the function of the automobile to flatten the retail landscape of an area. That runs into my theory of time-relative distance - and for places with auto-centric downtowns, that time-relative space means the people working there both think of downtown as somewhat larger than in transit-central areas do, and think of retail options in a broader scope than transit/pedestrian workers would.

The LA Times has a page about LA neighborhoods - here's their Downtown LA (http://projects.latimes.com/mapping-la/neighborhoods/neighborhood/downtown/) page - and "downtown LA" is just enormous by their measure (they included what Google labels Downtown, New Downtown, the Fashion District, South Park, Little Tokyo and the Wholesale District/Skid Row). It's basically the size of the entire central area of Chicago - as if you included the Loop, River North, Michigan Avenue, River West, Streeterville, the West Loop, the South Loop and parts of Old Town and the Gold Coast here in Chicago. So part of the "issue" may be in the definition of a downtown or even CBD - if localities get to define it, then comparing any statistics for them is gonna be fraught with error.

Other cities I have pedestrian experience with are Minneapolis, which isn't Chicago but has pretty a retail-friendly downtown, Portland which is somewhat similar to Minneapolis, really, Boise, which given the size is okay downtown - what I would consider proportionately appropriate retail for the number of people who work in downtown Boise, Indianapolis, which has a big mall downtown, Seattle, which has a nice central business district. I also don't quite see how you think Boston has bad retail options - maybe it's not exactly a shopper's mecca, but I think it holds its own. It has department stores and other shops - at least it did when I was there in spring of 2001.

Milwaukee and St. Louis are okay, but, despite some towers, are actually kinda thin on the ground to support a lot of pedestrian-oriented retail. In spots it's okay, but it's really not someplace I thought of as a shopping destination for their respective regions. I spent less time in Cleveland, but it seems to fall into this category, too. Another factor for all these cities is how the central area has been carved up by public works (mainly I mean highways) so that they're not very well integrated from a pedestrian's viewpoint.

Then you have places like Rockford or Peoria, Illinois, or Caldwell or Nampa, Idaho, and you run into a huge case of auto-centrism. They don't really HAVE people working downtown anymore. Not just retail has been dispersed, but so has most other non-retail commercial activity. This actually applies to the majority of American mid-sized cities. For example, go to an "office park" and you won't fine retail interspersed. American go to their workplaces primarily to, shocking, I know, work. We do have some of the highest productivity and longest work hours in the world, after all. That doesn't come without a price.

[mhays]

No, downtown LA actually has over 400,000 daily workers in its downtown according to the downtown improvment district reports. Off this 400,000 150,000 are private sector workers, while the rest are government workers.


I don't believe that "government" stat for a second.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

well, it is the second largest government center after DC.

[blockski]

Possibly because the relevancy of auto-dependency, at least, is dubious. I'd argue that among the reasons people working in offices downtown don't do more shopping there at lunch or other times (to the extent that's the case) is that they don't want to have to lug purchases home on public transportation. Being carless in the unmentionable city, I can tell you it's a challenge, and an increasing one as I age, to lug bags of groceries or other bulky purchases on crowded busses and trains. People who drive downtown actually have a leg up in this regard.

I also don't see the relevancy of sprawl. We are talking about people who ARE downtown for other reasons so the fact that they may live many miles outside the city also shouldn't stop them from shopping downtown if they were so inclined.

I think the real issue here is that people tend to do most of their shopping near where they live and mostly during their free time, not business hours, so cities with copious downtown shopping tend to be cities with downtown residents.

Auto-dependency is very relevant. What goes on downtown does not happen in a vacuum. The outside areas matter. For one, certain retailers are not going to oversaturate a market. Many of them have strict rules about how many stores they'll place within a certain radius of each other. If there's one of them out at the trendy mall, they're not looking to put one downtown, too.

As you note, most people shop where they live - thus the development of the surrounding areas matters a lot. If the downtown core is surrounded by dense development, then you're likely to see a lot more retail catering to a lot more retail needs. If your downtown is basically a vertical urban office park, you're not going to see much, no matter how many people you have there.

^oh lord, BT.

auto-centrism combined with profit-driven sprawl (sprawl needs widespread car ownership to succeed) have combined to enable all sorts of levittowns, office parks, and suburban malls to succeed. stunted or stillborn downtown areas are but one result. you could argue that chicago or new york or san francisco or *gasp* even toronto have vibrant downtowns. but you'd also have to recognize that these cities were around before our autocentric, suburban development patterns became standard. contrast this with the newer boomtowns.

all this leads to another point; superficial city vs. city debates about the hippest stores and the tallest buildings take precedence over conversations about the underlying reasons for various types of development.

Well said.

Mike has an interesting idea here, but by painting with such a broad brush and starting with some comically inaccurate generalizations, as well as some poorly selected anecdotal evidence, makes a real discussion tough.

[mhays]

The region or Downtown?

If they're Downtown, and they're all in offices (for the sake of conversation), they'd need roughly 60,000,000 sf of government offices. Figure 60 major towers. Or, maybe 40 major towers if 1/3 of them weren't in offices. I really doubt it.

[Strange Meat]

well, it is the second largest government center after DC.

I thought Denver had the most on Federal payroll outside of DC.

(I don't care either way, just a stat I've heard, well, a lot.)

[mhays]

Last I checked, Denver was pretty typical per capita in terms of federal payroll. It does have a lot of "bureau" type agencies.