[tmnt mask]

It's a prime destination for urban explorers and decay enthusiasts. TIME recently put out a photoessay called "Detroits Beautiful, Horrible Decline." Detroits been this way for a long time now, but more than ever this seems to be Detroit's selling point now. Does this bother you or do you find that it brings an interest in Detroit's past and incidentally its future?

[BVictor1]

To make a comment, as a non-Detroiter, I think that it's quite sad that recent mayors and government officials haven't done a better job to try and diversify the economy.

My mom was born in Saginaw and moved to Detroit in 1960 with her family. My grandmother still lives in Detroit on Glynn. My uncle moved back to Detroit and lives on Oakman Blve near Mackenzie High School which my mom graduated from and closed last year.

The amount of burned out, vacant and collapsing structures is stinning and devistating. Detroit has a lot of potential. Currently some property is selling for $25,000 which is hard to grasp.

I truly hope that things can be reversed and some of the landmarks restored.

[BVictor1]

There a link to the Time Magazine photo essay:

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1882089,00.html

[MolsonExport]

The devastation to the urban fabric staggers the mind...

[strongbad635]

The amount of burned out, vacant and collapsing structures is stinning and devistating. Detroit has a lot of potential. Currently some property is selling for $25,000 which is hard to grasp.

Uh.......dude. There are houses in Detroit selling for $1-$10. For $25,000, you may be able to buy an entire neighborhood.........

[Pandemonious]

That photo essay is amazing. I have seen pictures of the town(s) at Chernobyl, and these pictures of detroit almost look even more decayed and abandoned..

[ssiguy]

It's a true shame as Detroit had a glorious past with some beautiful buildings.
There are three main rasons for Detroit's urban blight.
First: Race. During the 1960's there were huge race riots which lead to the White Flight" which happened all over big American cities with large black populations. The middle/upper income whites left and took their money and tax revenue with them leaving the city with mostly poor black people with high social expenses and little tax revenue to pay for them.
Second: Economy. Detroit and successive Michigan governments refused to see the writing on the wall and didn't diversify the economy.
Third: Transit. Detroit was actually offered $700 million by the federal government in the late 70s {which was a huge amount of money back then} and refused it. Transit brings people downtown and creates an urban vibrancy but instead Detroit ripped up entire downtown neighbourhoods to build a freeway system. Today Detroit is the biggest city in the Western world without any form of rail transit.
Today Detroit may be a true right off. The crime rate is extremly high so even Detroit's attempts to repopulate its dowwntown have a precious little effect and any new developments can't get off the ground due to the amount paid for them surrounded by $1 lots without a store or school in sight.
It's unfortunate but Detroit may be simply beyond repair and will continue to die a slow death.

[hudkina]

Why did this thread get unlocked? So 50 posters from other areas of the world (who have never set foot in the city and only know about it through the "mock-shock" articles that people from the Coasts phone in when they want to feel better about the terrible state of their own cities) can post comments like: "I feel sorry for Detroit" or "I can't believe the people in Detroit aren't doing anything" or "Detroit is a lost cause and should be leveled"?

Detroit isn't nearly as bad as many people think, but it certainly has a lot to offer when it comes to what people might expect. It is a far more complex city than even the longest magazine article could elaborate. It certainly doesn't do any good when forumers with a reference to teenage mutant ninja turtles in their name post fleeting thoughts that in turn give everyone the right to bash a city that has been beaten down quite enough.

Do you want to see Detroit? Here's a few pics:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/3117721006_512439e37e_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/089.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3187/3116894401_1fbecffb5b_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/034.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/149.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3265/2890926139_e974da8559_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/008.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3040/2602093857_11517cef68_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/091.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/3116894467_af7512b396_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/040.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/2891763654_29298254cd_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/001.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/148.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3075/2601212476_b13130a338_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/094.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3278/3084911705_01d4c3c8fc_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/054.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3097/3116893797_acc81bf47a_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/158.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/2601211114_9dd93c89c4_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/033.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3145/2602922202_8a4e186f2e_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/024.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3199/3084911201_1fe9032104_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/095.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/130.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/2799298798_f0f4f2e1aa_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/106.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/110.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/3084912145_313c176b54_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/043.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/143.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/126.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3075/3085750378_b6dc8254d0_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/006.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/198.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3120/2601212980_c8b2e9ffc4_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/101.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/214.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3244/3084910393_49ecb55271_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/063.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3110/3084911993_9dd5741c01_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/096.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/163.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/196.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/201.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/122.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/226.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3109/3085750842_88589234ac_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/088.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/132.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3028/3085750154_58ae5ae646_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/052.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/140.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/215.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3045/3085749808_650cf879a4_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/105.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/2600384193_466c7a2560_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/009.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3037/2600382013_8f68dcca4b_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/080.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/173.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3011/3085749722_51f073ccec_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/007.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3168/2891763600_94e81a0e83_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/108.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/191.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2602922276_4a82c62871_o.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/109.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/133.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/218.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/115.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/129.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/178.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/225.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/138.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/194.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/200.jpg
http://www.downriverdetroit.net/waynecounty/detroit/2006/222.jpg

[rockyi]

^Beautiful photos!

[Saddle Man]

What is the blue building? I love it. Those brick and stone homes are beautiful.

[MolsonExport]

Great photo exhibit, Hud.

[the urban politician]

Detroit is not the "Disneyland of Urban Decay"

Have many of you people simply not been there? Come the hell on...

[hudkina]

That blue building is the hotel portion of the Greektown Casino. I took those pictures near the end of summer when it was still under construction. It just recently opened to the public.

[philadelphiathrives]

It's a true shame as Detroit had a glorious past with some beautiful buildings.
There are three main rasons for Detroit's urban blight.
First: Race. During the 1960's there were huge race riots which lead to the White Flight" which happened all over big American cities with large black populations. The middle/upper income whites left and took their money and tax revenue with them leaving the city with mostly poor black people with high social expenses and little tax revenue to pay for them.
Second: Economy. Detroit and successive Michigan governments refused to see the writing on the wall and didn't diversify the economy.
Third: Transit. Detroit was actually offered $700 million by the federal government in the late 70s {which was a huge amount of money back then} and refused it. Transit brings people downtown and creates an urban vibrancy but instead Detroit ripped up entire downtown neighbourhoods to build a freeway system. Today Detroit is the biggest city in the Western world without any form of rail transit.
Today Detroit may be a true right off. The crime rate is extremly high so even Detroit's attempts to repopulate its dowwntown have a precious little effect and any new developments can't get off the ground due to the amount paid for them surrounded by $1 lots without a store or school in sight.
It's unfortunate but Detroit may be simply beyond repair and will continue to die a slow death.

I think it's likely the reason Detroit doesn't have rail transit is because of the political influence of the auto industry. They probably weren't keen on the idea of major competition in their hometown. :rolleyes: If Detroit were to build rail transit, it would be the ultimate sign that it has moved on from the auto industry.

[urbanlife]

I can't help it, but every time I think of the word "Detroit," I think Robocop...I blame tv.


Actually great shots of Detroit, one cannot argue that it is a great city it take photos of...decay or no decay.

[hudkina]

I think it's likely the reason Detroit doesn't have rail transit is because of the political influence of the auto industry. They probably weren't keen on the idea of major competition in their hometown. :rolleyes: It's ironic that the auto capital has seen the most amount of people drive out of town for good. :( If Detroit were to build rail transit, it would be the ultimate sign that it has moved on from the auto industry.

First of all, that's the biggest urban myth ever. The reason Detroit doesn't have an extensive rail network (it does actually have a 3-mile long elevated train system covering the downtown area) is because of the infighting between the mostly black city and the mostly white suburbs. The money that was offered to the region was ultimately taken back because the city and suburbs couldn't come to an agreement on how and where the money should be spent. Regional leaders know (and have known for a long time) that a region-wide rapid transit system is an effective tool for attracting development.

In fact, there's actually three proposed rail transit systems that are currently being studied. The first is a commuter rail line that runs from Ann Arbor to Downtown Detroit via the airport. The second is a publicly funded lightrail line that will run over 8 miles from the city's northern border to downtown. The third is a privately funded streetcar system that will run about 3.5 miles from Downtown to the New Center area. The privately funded line is the furthest along right now, and could see construction begin later this year.

Woodward light-rail system gets financial boost
By JOHN GALLAGHER • FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER • March 12, 2009

A proposed light-rail transit system on Woodward Avenue got a major financial boost today when Detroit’s Downtown Development Authority voted to contribute $9 million to help build the route.

In addition, Matt Cullen, the chief executive of the project known as M1-RAIL, told the DDA board that the Kresge Foundation was expected to approve a $35-million contribution to the project.

The project has already raised about $30 million in private contributions from contributors including Quicken Loans founder Dan Gilbert, Compuware Corp. founder and chair Peter Karmanos Jr., and the Ilitch family of pizza, sports, and entertainment fame.

Billed initially as a privately funded project, the financing from DDA and Kresge mean funding for the rail line now is more of a hybrid, using private, nonprofit and some public funding.

The additional funding means that the project has firm commitments for more than half of the estimated $120 million it needs to build the system. Cullen said he hoped to have the rest committed soon.

Cullen told the DDA board today that he hoped to start construction this year on the 3.4-mile line running from Hart Plaza to New Center. If all goes well, Cullen said, the line could be operating by the end of 2010.

[philadelphiathrives]

First of all, that's the biggest urban myth ever. The reason Detroit doesn't have an extensive rail network (it does actually have a 3-mile long elevated train system covering the downtown area) is because of the infighting between the mostly black city and the mostly white suburbs. The money that was offered to the region was ultimately taken back because the city and suburbs couldn't come to an agreement on how and where the money should be spent. Regional leaders know (and have known for a long time) that a region-wide rapid transit system is an effective tool for attracting development.

In fact, there's actually three proposed rail transit systems that are currently being studied. The first is a commuter rail line that runs from Ann Arbor to Downtown Detroit via the airport. The second is a publicly funded lightrail line that will run over 8 miles from the city's northern border to downtown. The third is a privately funded streetcar system that will run about 3.5 miles from Downtown to the New Center area. The privately funded line is the furthest along right now, and could see construction begin later this year.

They should probably get money from the stimulus program. That's what it's there for. :D

[leftopolis]

It's a prime destination for urban explorers and decay enthusiasts. TIME recently put out a photoessay called "Detroits Beautiful, Horrible Decline." Detroits been this way for a long time now, but more than ever this seems to be Detroit's selling point now. Does this bother you or do you find that it brings an interest in Detroit's past and incidentally its future?

Does it bother you that just about everything you said to start off this thread--including the title--makes you sound like a crass douche bag?

[hauntedheadnc]

Do you want to see Detroit? Here's a few pics:


Quiet, you. Everyone knows that Detroit is a crushed and shattered city, its populace cynical and embittered to the point of soullessness, ungovernable yet governed by racist clowns, choking on the stench of its own decay and destined to depopulate completely as the thugs kill each other off and the few people with actual jobs flee to squabbling suburbs, and as its army of arsonists reduce ever more of the city to ash its fate is to inexorably sink into a snowswept plain studded with charred rubble.

All this fluff and nonsense you show with your photographs of functioning city services! Piffle, I say!

[Crawford]

Besides all the good points made by Hudkina and others, remember that the city of Detroit comprises less than 20% of the overall metro.

This means that even if the city is one giant slum (which isn't close to the truth), this zone of supposed decay would cover less than a fifth of the overall metro population.

Detroit isn't that different from other U.S. metros.

Just like every other U.S. metro, Detroit has super rich suburbs, emerging ethnoburbs, hollowed-out ghettohoods, middle-class boringsvilles, hip, walkable areas, working-class inner suburbs, urban barrios, etc.

[Top Of The Park]

great bunch of photos.....I like Detroit and hope things improve over time

[ginsan2]

I don't feel bothered, but what I feel is a combination of desperation, anger and hopelessness. Even as someone who no longer lives in the state.

And that's part of it, too-- I had to leave. Most people had to leave. I didn't even like Michigan, but I still had to go and that bothers me. It's the feeling anyone gets when watching something get worse, because you understand well and truly what the world "unbelievable" really means. It's unbelievable that it could get worse, that it could be what it is. I'm not sure what other words to lay upon that feeling, but there it is.

[hudkina]

Yes because you had such a horrible middle-class upbringing in safe, suburban Dearborn...

[DecoJim]

Detroiters, does it bother you your city is becoming the disneyland of urban decay?

Na... you get used to it.;)

Playing up the Disneyland angle: if we could charge the same amount for tourists to see and explore the abandoned buildings like the Broderick or Book Towers as it costs to go to Disneyland....

[philadelphiathrives]

Na... you get used to it.;)

Playing up the Disneyland angle: if we could charge the same amount for tourists to see and explore the abandoned buildings like the Broderick or Book Towers as it costs to go to Disneyland....

Hey, they do that in Athens, Rome, Eqypt, Ireland, and Guatemala. :D And Independence Hall hasn't been used for anything but tours for generations, but they're free.

[the urban politician]

Okay, for a while I was okay, but yes... Detroit being the Disneyland of urban decay kind of hurts..
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/10/dawson-crying.jpg

[Blitz]

This thread is outrageous and there was nothing special about that Time photoshoot...I could find a bunch of closed schools/abandoned buildings in any big city.
Detroit is constantly being picked on because of the media fascination with the collapse of the auto industry despite the fact the automakers had nothing to do with this economic mess.

[ikerrin]

Duplicate post. Boy, I really want Detroit to join Canada, I guess. :) We need all the Southern space we can get, especially since no Caribbean Islands even want to join us.

[ikerrin]

I have always thought that Detroit would be a nice addition to Canada. You bring the snazzy old building and decaying architecture and we'll bring the free health care and public transit. I can see some of the empty downtown lots working out well as urban agriculture sites.

Michigan was supposed to be ours anyway after the war of 1812, but the British made us give it back, so what do you say? Is it time for Detroit to join Ontario? Heck, you can even be your own province, besides, Detroit is French.
:cheers:

[Doady]

I find it amazing that some people deny the extreme and continuing decline of Detroit, and post pictures of new crappy suburban style houses that have been built in the city as a sign that it is sign that is not doing so badly after all. It is ridiculous. Talk about denial.

But still, perhaps it is unfair that Detroit is singled out. After all, St. Louis has seen massive decline as well.

[hudkina]

I find it amazing that some people deny the extreme and continuing decline of Detroit, and post pictures of new crappy suburban style houses that have been built in the city as a sign that it is sign that is not doing so badly after all. It is ridiculous. Talk about denial.

Yes, because only three (arguably two) of those pictures I posted were actually of "new crappy suburban style houses", compared to the 15 pictures of grit and abandonment. I'm so in denial.

And why can't I show pictures of areas of Detroit that are trying to better themselves? Do I like the new suburban-style affordable housing that is going up in a few of the most "abandoned" neighborhoods? Not particularly. But it's there and is just as much a part of the city as any other neighborhood.

Do you honestly think the entire city is collapsing in on itself? Do not realize that there are actually quite a few middle-class and even wealthy neighborhoods in the city of Detroit? I'm sure you're only experience of the city is watching the movie "8 Mile" or maybe driving through on the highway, but you're talking about a large city of over 900,000 people. Do you honestly think all 900,000 of those people live in abandoned slums?

[hudkina]

I can see some of the empty downtown lots working out well as urban agriculture sites.

Those empty downtown lots are for parking!;)

[ginsan2]

Yes because you had such a horrible middle-class upbringing in safe, suburban Dearborn...

And several years' worth of working in Detroit and sitting on various public interest councils.

[hudkina]

various public interest councils? lol.;)

[Crawford]

I find it amazing that some people deny the extreme and continuing decline of Detroit.

If you are talking about city proper, please tell us one person here who denies extreme and continuing decline.

and post pictures of new crappy suburban style houses that have been built in the city as a sign that it is sign that is not doing so badly after all. .

Please tell us one American city without "crappy suburban style" houses.

[ginsan2]

various public interest councils? lol.;)

Yes. Various public interest councils, committees and charities.

Is there anything else, hudkina? Perhaps something valid?

[hudkina]

care to elaborate?

[Jaroslaw]

I was bothered 20 years ago, but I've moved on, literally and mentally.

What does bother me for a few seconds every time I come back is that when you're heading up north on I-75, you always see that big water tower with the huge letters, "Detroit Zoo, [fill in the blank], Mayor." For over 20 years, and probably much longer, no one among the powers that be has done anything to alleviate this all-too-visibly ironic sign. Yes, the stupidity of things like this bother me, but I don't mind--it provides me with the beginnings of an adequate explanation for the way things have turned out for Detroit.

Having lived now in so many poorer countries, like Vietnam and Korea, where the people work so much harder than in America, I am at least intermittently pleased...the spectacle of Detroit provides something like a sense of justice, a sense that stupidity, laziness and confusing your luck for your merit will get punished. It's just too bad that the more responsible you are for what happened to Detroit, the less you feel its effects personally.

[the urban politician]

Having lived now in so many poorer countries, like Vietnam and Korea, where the people work so much harder than in America, I am at least intermittently pleased...the spectacle of Detroit provides something like a sense of justice, a sense that stupidity, laziness and confusing your luck for your merit will get punished. It's just too bad that the more responsible you are for what happened to Detroit, the less you feel its effects personally.

^ Are you talking about unions?

If so, I witness lazy arrogance at my workplace every single damn day.

Enough said..

[Jaroslaw]

I am talking more generally about the fact that three of the most industrialized countries in the world in 1938 were Japan, Germany, and Czechoslovakia. In 1945 the first two were in ruins, and the third overrun by a barbaric empire, its factories disassembled and shipped east... American industry took this accident of historical good fortune as testimony of its own merit. Thus, when industry began to return to its previous high levels in the rest of the world, Detroit had no reply. It could only watch helplessly as its industry got crushed.

The second circumstance of pride that comes to mind as decisive for Detroit (and other cities in the Midwest) was the notion that the government could somehow declare a "war on poverty," and to win this war. This seems to me to have been not just idealistic, but symptomatic of a certain overreaching pride. The signs of this pride were in the way that the Federal government would stop at nothing to achieve its "victory." Even when it was clear that bussing was anathema to the white middle class, and would drive that crucial class of people away from the inner cities, still the government persisted. "It was necessary to destroy the village to save it," said an officer, notoriously, during the Vietnam war (another contemporaneous symptom of American pride--perhaps not so much the idea of the war, but the way it was conducted). It was necessary to destroy the social fabric of the inner cities (as well as its urban fabric, of course) in order to "save" them.

But I overlooked the question of this thread. Yes, the idea that Detroit's ruins and its failure are some kind of tourist "Disneyland" is distasteful. Worthy of seeing, instructive, yes. But to be seen humbly, because it is humbling.

[the urban politician]

^ Great points, and I have my own thoughts on that, although this is probably not the best place to discuss them

[SHOFEAR]

I know a bunch of you wont like this, but Detroit reminds me of one of those pseudo science experiments you do as a kid where the outcome is to see just how bad things can get. You know, the how long can you keep a sandwich in your locker type thing. I'm not ready to call this Detroit experiment quits yet.

[hudkina]

I know a bunch of you wont like this, but Edmonton reminds me of a boring frozen wasteland.

[Blitz]

The tone of that Time article is so overly-dramatic by consistently referring to the "remains" of Detroit as if we're talking about Chernobyl or something. Unbelievable. As mentioned, there are over 900,000 people living in the city.

[the urban politician]

I know a bunch of you wont like this, but Detroit reminds me of one of those pseudo science experiments you do as a kid where the outcome is to see just how bad things can get. You know, the how long can you keep a sandwich in your locker type thing. I'm not ready to call this Detroit experiment quits yet.

^ It's not that I don't like it, it's just that's a stupid and inaccurate analogy

[SpongeG]

^ It's not that I don't like it, it's just that's a stupid and inaccurate analogy

i think i read what he said as the government is behind it to see just what will happen if they do such and such to a city etc

ok maybe i watch too much heroes

[Jaroslaw]

^ Great points, and I have my own thoughts on that, although this is probably not the best place to discuss them

I'm always looking forward to your thoughts, especially when prefaced by a compliment for me. Type away, and send a pm if you're worried you'll get cut for o.t.

[JivecitySTL]

Detroit is such an amazing city that is so misunderstood. I pity the fool who writes it off before ever getting to know it. Their loss.

[HowardL]

I know a bunch of you wont like this, but Detroit reminds me of one of those pseudo science experiments you do as a kid where the outcome is to see just how bad things can get. You know, the how long can you keep a sandwich in your locker type thing. I'm not ready to call this Detroit experiment quits yet.Yeah, a lot of people will get jaggedly mad at you, but for it's worth, I know what you're saying.

[ssiguy]

All cities have nice areas and poorer less desireable ones but downtown Detroit is in a league of it's own and Detroit can blame it one the economy or whatever but in the end Detroiters have no one to blame but themselves.
all one has to do is look across the river at Windsor. Proportionatly it is probably more reliant on auto production but although it has high unemployment and is 200k compared to Detroit's 900k, it downtown is still liveable, safe, and has avoided Detroit's massive decay.

[philadelphiathrives]

I am talking more generally about the fact that three of the most industrialized countries in the world in 1938 were Japan, Germany, and Czechoslovakia. In 1945 the first two were in ruins, and the third overrun by a barbaric empire, its factories disassembled and shipped east... American industry took this accident of historical good fortune as testimony of its own merit. Thus, when industry began to return to its previous high levels in the rest of the world, Detroit had no reply. It could only watch helplessly as its industry got crushed.

The second circumstance of pride that comes to mind as decisive for Detroit (and other cities in the Midwest) was the notion that the government could somehow declare a "war on poverty," and to win this war. This seems to me to have been not just idealistic, but symptomatic of a certain overreaching pride. The signs of this pride were in the way that the Federal government would stop at nothing to achieve its "victory." Even when it was clear that bussing was anathema to the white middle class, and would drive that crucial class of people away from the inner cities, still the government persisted. "It was necessary to destroy the village to save it," said an officer, notoriously, during the Vietnam war (another contemporaneous symptom of American pride--perhaps not so much the idea of the war, but the way it was conducted). It was necessary to destroy the social fabric of the inner cities (as well as its urban fabric, of course) in order to "save" them.

But I overlooked the question of this thread. Yes, the idea that Detroit's ruins and its failure are some kind of tourist "Disneyland" is distasteful. Worthy of seeing, instructive, yes. But to be seen humbly, because it is humbling.

I know I'm getting a little off topic, but there's a reason why Germany & Japan were in ruins in 1945 and not the U.S. It wasn't luck that the US was the "arsenal of democracy"; it was generations of merit by the hardest working industrialized nation. And it was arrogance of the most extreme kind that caused Germany and Japan to go to war in the first place, commit genocide, and get destroyed by the rest of the world.

[Crawford]

all one has to do is look across the river at Windsor. Proportionatly it is probably more reliant on auto production but although it has high unemployment and is 200k compared to Detroit's 900k, it downtown is still liveable, safe, and has avoided Detroit's massive decay.

Ummm, you do realize that Windsor is in another country, right? Why not bring up Nagoya too? Isn't Nagoya about as reliant on the auto industry?

Do you make comparisons between El Paso and Juarez too?

As for downtown Detroit, I would argue it's livable, and it's most certainly safe. The problem is in the outlying neighborhoods, not downtown.

And the suburbs are much more prosperous than Windsor. Bloomfield Hills is one of the wealthiest places on earth, but, for some reason, it doesn't "count"...

[hudkina]

I'm just curious as to why you think "Downtown" Detroit is unliveable or unsafe? Most of the crime in the city is in the neighborhoods outside of the greater downtown area. Downtown Detroit has a crime rate that is comparable to most other major downtowns in the U.S. While there are some empty skyscrapers that sit in the Downtown area and more than a few empty storefronts, I would hardly say downtown Detroit has "massive decay".

There are over 50 buildings over 15 stories in Downtown Detroit (i.e. the area bounded by I-75, I-375, M-10, and the river). All but six of those 50+ buildings are occupied. The only 15+ floor buildings that sit empty are:

The Book Tower - It was shuttered a couple months ago after a new owner bought the building. They have not revealed their plans for the building.
The Broderick Tower - It has been vacant for a while, but plans are in the works to convert it into market-rate apartments.
1001 Woodward - This modern office tower was emptied so the owner could convert it into condos, but after the market collapsed, it will revert back to being office space.
The David Whitney Building - Though it has been mostly vacant for a long time, it was better preserved than some of the other vacant buildings.
The UA Theatre Building - Another long-vacant building. In the last year the owner has been cleaning it up and making it ready for possible future development.
The Metropolitan Building - A small, wedge-shaped building stuffed in a quite corner of downtown. There are currently no plans for redevelopment.

A few 15+ story buildings that were once-vacant, but have since been renovated:
Westin Book-Cadillac Hotel - It sat vacant for over 20 years, rotting away, but was completely renovated into an upscale hotel.
Fort Shelby Doubletree Hotel - Another long-vacant hotel that was renovated into a modern hotel.
Kales Building - The Kales Building was renovated into market-rate apartments.

[Jaroslaw]

I know I'm getting a little off topic, but there's a reason why Germany & Japan were in ruins in 1945 and not the U.S. It wasn't luck that the US was the "arsenal of democracy"; it was generations of merit by the hardest working industrialized nation. And it was arrogance of the most extreme kind that caused Germany and Japan to go to war in the first place, commit genocide, and get destroyed by the rest of the world.

That's quite true... Germany and Japan did go from success to overreaching in the 1930s, and I think America followed that pattern in the 1960s, with vast differences in political system and goals, to America's great credit. I am trying to look for historical parallels, not for moral equivalents.

[Evergrey]

can you post a picture of the Metrpolitan Building, hud?

...

btw, here's an article from today's WSJ about how Detroit's wealthy suburbs are sharing the pain of the economy... and goes into detail about Michigan's unique method of school funding

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123724537363148365.html

[J. Will]

I know a bunch of you wont like this, but Edmonton reminds me of a boring frozen wasteland.

There's no truth to that of course, but why let the truth get in the way of your story. You never have in the past.

[hudkina]

Of course that sentence offended you. Of course it did... Why wouldn't it?


Here's an older picture of the Metropolitan Building:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/16/19945076_61a94a674e.jpg
© Andrew in Windsor (http://www.flickr.com/photos/aiw/)
It's a hard building to redevelop because the majority of the windows look out into an alley.

The other five major vacant buildings:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3196/3056938378_fbf05a626b.jpg
© J. Good (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpgnexus/)
The only reason it currently sits vacant is because a recent plan called to convert it into a residential tower.

United Artists Building:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1189/549656002_40fc274b0d.jpg
© statlerhotel (http://www.flickr.com/photos/statlerhotel/)

David Whitney Building:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1314/989886091_19e1e224e1.jpg
© pinehurst19475 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/71288712@N00/)

Broderick Tower:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1094/698057390_5f4e7f6d31.jpg
© mdhellekjaer (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hellek23d/)

Book Tower:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3007/3024263960_db22ccba5f.jpg
© Sean_Marshall (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7119320@N05/)
Contrary to popular belief, this building was occupied up until very recently. The new owners have not released any future plans as of yet.

Recently Renovated Buildings:
Kales Building:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/164401738_27d29450c1.jpg
© Jay P. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaypcool/)

Fort Shelby Doubletree Hotel:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/3268527552_7307431cc5_o.jpg
© statlerhotel (http://www.flickr.com/photos/statlerhotel/)

Westin Book-Cadillac Hotel:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/3236664867_45a14e65df.jpg
© Eridony (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eridony/)

[J. Will]

Was that addressed to me? LOLOL. It doesn't offend me. It's just not true (and even if it were, what does it have to do with Detroit's state of urban decay, or even this thread for that matter). It's also why no one here takes you seriously. Because you make ridiculous, untrue statements. I will give you credit for one thing though, you are a defender for your "cause", both here and on Detroityes. No one is more vehement than you.

[Crawford]

J.Will, please tell us you're under 18.

That was about the most sophomoric posting I've read on SSP.

[J. Will]

:haha:

That's especially funny coming from you. Though on Detroityes, you're the polar opposite of hudkina.

:haha:

[someone123]

Detroit has real problems but it also has a very unfair reputation.

I've been there and, yes, there are parking lots and abandoned buildings, but it is not the violent train wreck people imagine. The downtown still has lots of great buildings and most of them are in use. It's also pretty obvious that the downtown area has improved during this past decade. It's an interesting place with a lot of potential. When financing becomes easier I think there will be a lot of new projects.

The other factor, as mentioned, is that for some reason people ignore the fact that Detroit has a very large metropolitan area with wealthy suburbs. Taken as a whole, the city is not particularly poor. Its incomes are on par with New York or Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_areas_of_the_United_States_by_income) and it is a cheap place to live.

I'm not sure about recent unemployment figures but the Detroit metro rate was 8% or so. It is high but not really that different from others. You'd think it would have 25% unemployment based on how people talk.

[hudkina]

Was that addressed to me? LOLOL. It doesn't offend me. It's just not true (and even if it were, what does it have to do with Detroit's state of urban decay, or even this thread for that matter). It's also why no one here takes you seriously. Because you make ridiculous, untrue statements. I will give you credit for one thing though, you are a defender for your "cause", both here and on Detroityes. No one is more vehement than you.

My original statement was a tongue-in-cheek reply to the post by SHOFEAR directly above it. The irony rests in the fact that you call my "opinion" untrue (Uh doy:slob:) without mention to the original "opinion" of the Canadian from Edmonton. So by your standards he can say whatever he feels about Detroit, but it's unacceptable for me to reply with what is clearly a tongue-in-cheek retort...

Also, I barely even post on Detroityes! I've been registered there since 2004, but I have barely more than 300 posts. And I'm hardly the most "optimistic" poster at Detroityes. While it is a generally cynical website, most people do actually live and experience "Detroit" every day. They're not someone who lives on the frozen tundra of Canada who only knows about Detroit from watching 8 Mile. <---- Hey there's some of that "tongue-in-cheek" humor!!:D

[Evergrey]

Detroit has real problems but it also has a very unfair reputation.

I've been there and, yes, there are parking lots and abandoned buildings, but it is not the violent train wreck people imagine. The downtown still has lots of great buildings and most of them are in use. It's also pretty obvious that the downtown area has improved during this past decade. It's an interesting place with a lot of potential. When financing becomes easier I think there will be a lot of new projects.

The other factor, as mentioned, is that for some reason people ignore the fact that Detroit has a very large metropolitan area with wealthy suburbs. Taken as a whole, the city is not particularly poor. Its incomes are on par with New York or Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_areas_of_the_United_States_by_income) and it is a cheap place to live.

I'm not sure about recent unemployment figures but the Detroit metro rate was 8% or so. It is high but not really that different from others. You'd think it would have 25% unemployment based on how people talk.

8%!? a lot has changed in this world since Jan 2008 (most recent number for Detroit MSA is 13%)... and besides, unemployment rate is flawed statistic upon which to base assumptions about a region's economy... it's a lagging indicator that can be influenced by so many different factors concerning employment and migration flows... and doesn't account for discouraged workers

one major factor influencing unemployment rates that is never addressed in the media is growth or decline of a metro's labor force... if people lose their jobs or can't find work in a metro... they may move to a different metro... decreasing the size of the metro's labor force... and therefore decreasing (or slowing the increase of) that metro's unemployment rate

the rapidly decreasing labor force in Detroit... which is probably a mix of out-migrants and long-term discouraged workers... has slowed the increase of Detroit's unemployment rate... while 13% is very bad... it doesn't quite indicate just how bad the economy in Detroit is right now... it's unemployment rate is less than twice that of the U.S.... but its January year-over-year % employment decline of -7.4% is almost 4X worse than the U.S.... and is by far the worst amongst the country's Top 40 MSAs (well, Phoenix and Riverside are close... but then there's a significant drop-off)... of particular alarm... Detroit's year-over-year manufacturing employment declined by an astounding -20.6%

Detroit's labor force declined year-over-year in January by 54,000 (-2.6%)... and the MSA's labor force is at its lowest total since Jan. 1988. The labor force has fallen 223,000 since its January 2000 peak (-9.8%).

Detroit's non-farm employment dropped by 142,000 (-7.4%)... and is now at a lower January total than any other January since 1990 (which is as far back as the BLS has statistics for). Employment has fallen 392,000 since its Jan 2000 peak (-18.1%).

[LMich]

Hud and J. Will, cut it out, right now.

[SpongeG]

how did it all start though? the whole beat down detroit thing?

all I can think of is it is one of the Major US cities after New York, Chicago that absolutely crahsed in comparison to those other cities hence why it gets picked on so much??

it was one of the greats that fell the hardest? and society seems to love kicking them when they are down

its kinda weird cause I grew up on the west coast of Canada in BC but most of that time I have had Detroit TV stations - a weird thing that happens in Canada - lol - so get to see a lot of Detroit happennings and goings on

[J. Will]

without mention to the original "opinion" of the Canadian from Edmonton.
:slob:

[213]

edit

[someone123]

8%!? a lot has changed in this world since Jan 2008 (most recent number for Detroit MSA is 13%)... and besides, unemployment rate is flawed statistic upon which to base assumptions about a region's economy...

Okay, so I was looking at statistics that are significantly out of date.

I realize that unemployment does not tell the whole story and that the metro area as a whole has been losing jobs at an alarming pace.

I should clarify that from the beginning I sort of start with the assumption that the city is never really going to be what it once was and that it is faced more with the prospect of shrinking gracefully than anything else. A lot of cities in the Northeast and Midwest are like that. It's not really a sign by itself that they are worthless or awful places, it's just that they are no longer at their peak and are now competing with many newer places. I think that in North America we get a little too caught up with the idea that every city has to be growing permanently.

If the huge job losses continue then the city is really in trouble but if they level off I still think Detroit can be an interesting place, or at least have some appealing pockets. The downtown has some great buildings and not a lot of really serious problems like big, run-down public housing developments. It could be built into a nice, busy area if more residential development happens and transit improves a bit.

The hardest hit sunbelt cities aren't really in the same boat as they are declining but have very little character to attract people. They also have a lot of poor quality buildings that will rapidly become useless if not maintained. Then again, I guess they have better weather (or maybe Phoenix doesn't.. I don't know what people think about that). On balance though, I think most of the sunbelt was really about cheap living in suburbia and that whole way of life is in decline, meaning that the older or more carefully planned/transit oriented cities are going to become relatively more appealing in the future.

[urbanactivistTX]

I think it's likely the reason Detroit doesn't have rail transit is because of the political influence of the auto industry. They probably weren't keen on the idea of major competition in their hometown. :rolleyes: If Detroit were to build rail transit, it would be the ultimate sign that it has moved on from the auto industry.

WTF????? No, Detroit is like Houston (well only not)... too many white-flighters that suck funding from the city and live in their cars. Major rail projects wouldn't go through. And yeah, high unemployment... we know. But nobody's going around chanting "death to California" or "death to Vegas" b/c of high unemployment. And I'm SURE no one on this forum would ever ill on New York's financial industry... which, shall we say, hasn't had the best year ever.

If anyone's going to single out "losers" from this recession, please start with your own backyard, and let he who is without job losses cast the first stone!!!

[ginsan2]

WTF????? No, Detroit is like Houston (well only not)... too many white-flighters that suck funding from the city and live in their cars. Major rail projects wouldn't go through. And yeah, high unemployment... we know. But nobody's going around chanting "death to California" or "death to Vegas" b/c of high unemployment. And I'm SURE no one on this forum would ever ill on New York's financial industry... which, shall we say, hasn't had the best year ever.

If anyone's going to single out "losers" from this recession, please start with your own backyard, and let he who is without job losses cast the first stone!!!


It's quite the other way around-- the cities around Detroit pay extensively for Detroit.

As a nonfinancial measure of how reliant Detroit is for everything, I'm still getting jury duty notices. There's some statistic that displays how extremely small the proportion of Detroiters doing their own damn jury duty is. And for a majority black populace, the jurors are overwhelmingly white.

[hudkina]

Detroit's suburbs hardly pay "extensively" for Detroit. That's just anecdotal diatribe held by many suburbanites with a deep racist undertone. How much of "Detroit's" money do you think goes to pay for all those freeway projects throughout the metro area? How much of "Detroit's" money do you think goes toward maintaining the Metro Parks? The idea that the flow of money is one-sided is ridiculous. It's ironic that you left Detroit in part due to the supposed lack of regional cooperation, yet you are one of the people who plays that game! Also Metro Detroit is over 70% white, so why wouldn't you expect a jury pool to be of similar nature?

[go_leafs_go02]

The Canadian Broadcasting Corportation's headline late-night news (The National) which is broadcast across Canada and is the most popular news program in its timeslot.

They spent about 10 minutes of their house-long news cast talking about Detroit, going to neighbourhoods, a gutted houses, and focusing on the future.

I don't know a video to share, but it was intriguing to watch.

[ssiguy]

Yes, I watched it as well. It was shocking and sad. 50 years Toronto wasn't half the size of Detroit and an ugly decrepit boring little place. The situation wasn't the same but some lessons can be used. First, believe in your city. Toronto was one of the worse places you could imagine but the city decided to completly change it's outlook. Strong urban planning regulations, the creation of Metro Toronto which meant the taxes and services were basically the same across the city. Second, Toronto built Canada's first subway a full 15 years before Toronto's much more glamirous big sister Montreal.
Detroit should work on it's strengths. All those vacant lots should be worked with an investor for windmills to create a growing green economy. Get the word out across the nation that this is THE place for starving artists and students. Remake Detroit.............completly just as the auto industry did one hundred years ago. Forget the cars and move green so the world, and equally important Detroiters, see Detroit as tommorows green city................a true tommorrow's city.
Detroit has a lot of problems but few cities have the opportunity to do a 180 like Detroit. Detroit's crumbling streets and near free houses should be shown as a benefit not a liability. Sounds bizarre and I know that there will be a lot of personal pain but over the long run Detroit will be better off getting away from it's auto dependence economy.
Detroit may be a lemon now but with figour and a REAL attempt Detroit could use its strengths and weaknesess to turn it to lemonade.