[LMich]

This isn't really a surprised considering the state number released for 2008, last year, which is base they use for calculating the 2008 county and municipal numbers. A quick look through the major metros in the state showed only Grand Rapids' MSA 'growing', gaining slightly less than 2,000.

What I was surprised to see for metro Detroit is that Macomb County (and not also Livingston) is the only one posting a gain, and also that the Census Bureau has finally taken away the metro's growth from earlier in the decade so that the new metro number shows a net loss since 2000; the first time they've showed that this decade.



http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20090319&Category=METRO&ArtNo=903190351&Ref=AR

State loses more people to migration (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090319/METRO/903190351)

The Detroit News, March 19, 2009

More than two-thirds of all counties in Michigan lost population last year, according to estimates released today by the U.S. Census Bureau.

As has been the case for the three years the state has lost population, the culprit has been the continued movement of people out of the state -- many seeking work or retiring.

Wayne County, the state's largest county, had the biggest net loss -- an estimated 31,725 people.

Advertisement

But the counties to lose the next highest number of people were not the next largest ones. They were Genesee, Jackson, Saginaw and St. Clair, which lost between 1,000 and 5,000 people.

Most counties had more births than deaths. The increase in migration has caused the state to shrink, demographers said. Wayne County lost more than 45,000 people to migration, up from 41,633 the year before.

Even Livingston County, which was one of the last in the area to experience loss from migration, saw its migrants triple last year, from 401 in 2007 to 1,253.

A silver lining may reside in the downturn in the economy: Demographers say it has made it more difficult for Michigan residents to leave.

They've also registered what I think is an abnormally large loss from Flint's metro (Genesee County) since 2000, estimating that almost all of the loss occured between 2007-2008, which seems highly suspect, to me.



Census database: 2008 metropolitan population estimates (http://www.freep.com/article/20090319/NEWS03/90318095)

The Detroit Free Press, March 19, 2009

The Detroit Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) lost the largest number of residents in the nation between 2007 and 2008, according to the latest U.S. Census Bureau estimates. The Flint MSA in Michigan ranked third in terms of greatest number of residents lost. The Detroit MSA cited by the census includes Wayne, Oakland, Macomb, Lapeer, St. Clair and Livingston counties, while the Flint MSA includes Genesee county.

Search the database below to find 2008 metropolitan population estimates for Michigan and the U.S.

Population & percent change (2007-2008):



Detroit: 4,457,523 - 4,425,110 (-0.7%)

Grand Rapids: 774,931 - 776,833 (+0.2)

Lansing: 455,071 - 454,035 (-0.2%)

Flint: 434,027 - 428,790 (-1.2%)

Ann Arbor: 347,969 - 347,376 (-0.2%)

Kalamazoo: 322,340 - 323,713 (+0.4%)

Holland: 258,461 - 260,364 (+0.7%)

Saginaw: 202,272 - 200,745 (-0.8%)




Population & percent change (2000-2008):



Detroit: 4,441,551 - 4,425,110 (-0.6%)

Grand Rapids: 740,482 - 776,833 (+4.9)

Lansing: 447,728 - 454,035 (+1.4%)

Flint: 436,141 - 428,790 (-1.7%)

Ann Arbor: 322,895 - 347,376 (+7.6%)

Kalamazoo: 314,866 - 323,713 (+2.8%)

Holland: 238,314 - 260,364 (+9.3%)

Saginaw: 210,039 - 200,745 (-4.4%)

[hudkina]

I can't wait until the actual count to see how accurate these estimates really are...

[LMich]

BTW, I calculated the tri-county area population for 2008 from the Census and SEMCOG:

Census (July 2008): 3,982,766
SEMCOG (Feb. 2009): 4,005,435

They are pretty close, but SEMCOG is not registering quite the decline that the Census is, and SEMCOG's numbers go through the current recession, to boot. There numbers seem to be very close on Macomb and Oakland (and Livingston), but the Census seems to believe that Wayne dropped off a cliff sometime between 2007 and 2008. lol The Census also seems to believe that Washtenaw didn't grow as quickly as SEMCOG is predicting it to.

My take is that I think they (the Census) may end up bring pretty close to right on most of the suburban counties, but I think they've significantly overstated the loss within Wayne County. Any organization showing Dearborn and Hamtramck (like the Census is estimating) losing population is an organization I take with a grain of salt.

[subterranean]

I would assume that the only growth in Midland and Bay counties is from the exodus of Saginaw. And although Kent had a net gain, Holland most likely made its gain from the sprawl that is Grand Rapids. As you can see, the sprawl continues in northern metro Lansing as well.

What I find to be most striking is that Kalamazoo gained. Is this the Kzoo Promise paying off?

[the urban politician]

West Michigan is growing. Is that a Chicago thing? A Lake Michigan thing?

[the urban politician]

I HATE what is happening to Michigan, btw. My parents live there. Basically, the home that they spent years paying off will probably be worth less than when they bought it.

Michigan is a beautiful state, and it has a lot of potential. I mean, just look at a satellite map of the place! A pair of peninsulas surrounded by the world's largest collection of freshwater lakes. It's such a unique geography! I just don't get how drab, landlocked places like Georgia and Arizona are fast outgrowing it. What's the appeal?

I will be moving close to Michigan this summer, and even though I won't be a resident I will at least always remain nearby.

[LMich]

What I find to be most striking is that Kalamazoo gained. Is this the Kzoo Promise paying off?

That's what I chalked it up to, because even Big Pharma has been taking a hit these past few years in K'zoo and Michigan as a whole.

West Michigan is growing. Is that a Chicago thing? A Lake Michigan thing?

No, it's a diversified (diversifying) economy thing?

[NIXPHX77]

It's such a unique geography! I just don't get how drab, landlocked places like Georgia and Arizona are fast outgrowing it. What's the appeal?

you can't be serious. you'll have to ask the hundreds of thousands of ex-Michiganders here in AZ that question (and the other thousands who are planning/trying to move here from there.)
AZ is anything but drab. it probably has the most diverse landscape outside of Calif. there's a lot more here than desert (which has its own unique beauty), and the Pacific ocean is maybe 100 miles from our border.
also, GA is not landlocked!

[Evergrey]

http://ipcorp.net/mediac/400_0/media/Georgia~Coast~Map.jpg

[the urban politician]

you can't be serious. you'll have to ask the hundreds of thousands of ex-Michiganders here in AZ that question (and the other thousands who are planning/trying to move here from there.)
AZ is anything but drab. it probably has the most diverse landscape outside of Calif. there's a lot more here than desert (which has its own unique beauty), and the Pacific ocean is maybe 100 miles from our border.
also, GA is not landlocked!

^ I know, and I'm not here to knock on Arizona. I'm sure there are great qualities to both Arizona and Georgia. But when it comes to water access, none of them come even close. Add to that the fact that much of Georgia's growth is occurring in metro Atlanta, far from the Atlantic seaboard.

The uniqueness of Michigan's geography, ie being a pair of peninsulas immersed in massive freshwater lakes, is really quite extraordinary. It is said that nowhere in Michigan will you be more than 85 miles from one of the Great Lakes.

[the urban politician]

Sorry. Double post

[NIXPHX77]

i once read many years ago that AZ had one of the highest rates of boat ownership per capita. there are a lot of large (not Great!) lakes here in beautiful canyon settings. fishing and waterskiing are very popular here, too. just FYI.
(not knocking Mich. at all.)

[LMich]

I was kind of surprised to find this. Fast-growing Metro Holland (it's almost silly to call it a metro) is now experiencing quite the economic problem, itself. Apparently, it's unemployment rate is now only second to Muskegon (which has perpetually elevated levels of it) in West Michigan.

In a perfect world, this would mean that they wouldn't gloat about their 'growth' (sprawl), but that's not going to happen. I already see that they are talking about how this is all our 'socialist' governor's fault. **bangs head on desk**

Holland city unemployment varies by county (http://www.hollandsentinel.com/news/x1465807222/Holland-city-unemployment-varies-by-county)

By JEREMY GONSIOR
The Holland Sentinel
Posted Mar 20, 2009 @ 09:08 PM

Holland, MI — Unemployment in the city of Holland — depending on the area — is higher than the percentage for Ottawa and Allegan counties as a whole.

U.S. Census statistics show the city’s overall unemployment rate in January was 14.6 percent, with 2,611 residents unemployed in a workforce of 17,853 people.

The Allegan County portion of the city has a 5 percent unemployment rate, with 155 people needing work.

However, the Ottawa County portion has a 16.6 percent unemployment rate, with 2,456 people out of work.

Officials at the Michigan Works Service Center in Holland said layoffs last month brought many people into their office.

“It’s still very busy in our service center,” said Bill Raymond, director of Michigan Works in Ottawa County.

The current unemployment rate is comparable to what Holland experienced in the early 1980s, Mayor Al McGeehan said. It’s a stark contrast, however, to city life in the late 1990s.

“It’s been a roller coaster over the last 25 years,” he said. “Anyone that would have driven into town (in the 90s) could have found a job before sundown. The change we are experiencing has been dramatic and it’s been rapid. I am not surprised but deeply saddened by the current state of our state economy.”

The only city in West Michigan with a higher unemployment rate is Muskegon with 17.4 percent.

Other nearby cities have slightly less. Grand Rapids came in at 13.5 percent and Kalamazoo had a 11.6 percent unemployment rate.

McGeehan said the struggles of auto suppliers and office furniture manufacturers are the main cause of Holland’s employment woes.

“Both of those industries have taken substantial hits,” he said.

Displaced workers should follow the lead of many local entrepreneurs who started businesses above Eighth Street or in Lakeshore Advantage’s business incubator, he said.

“This is a time for people to take control of their own lives and future,” McGeehan said. “We need to remember that hope is not a strategy for success.”

Unemployment rates in other Michigan cities

• Flint: 24 percent
• Detroit: 22.2 percent
• Saginaw: 20.7 percent
• Muskegon: 17.4 percent
• Lansing: 15 percent
• Grand Rapids: 13.5 percent
• Kalamazoo: 11.6 percent
• Ann Arbor: 7.8 percent

BTW, I'm again impressed with Kzoo. It's becoming quite the stable little city, at least by Michigan standards.

Lastly, anyone interested in more Michigan population trends can check out all of the great charts, tables, and graphs compiled by the Michigan Department of History, Arts, and Libraries, which, ironically enough, is on the governor's chopping block along with every other "non-essential" service and department. Here's one concering total net migration:

Total Net Migration: Michigan 1960-2008 (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/hal/lm_census_netmig6008_260717_7.pdf)


Fallacies that Misinform Our Thinking About Michigan’s Population and Economy (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/hal/lm_census_RevEstConf08-0111_221465_7.pdf)

Go take a look.

[vid]

The Keewenaw is growing. :)

[DecoJim]

Lastly, anyone interested in more Michigan population trends can check out all of the great charts, tables, and graphs compiled by the Michigan Department of History, Arts, and Libraries, which, ironically enough, is on the governor's chopping block along with every other "non-essential" service and department. Here's one concering total net migration:

...

Fallacies that Misinform Our Thinking About Michigan’s Population and Economy (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/hal/lm_census_RevEstConf08-0111_221465_7.pdf)

Go take a look.

LMich, thanks for the links, quite interesting. It looks like in the past two recessions, the Michigan unemployment trend was "ahead" of the nation as a whole and began its recovery sooner. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that the Big 3 were all still in business and were able to quickly hire workers and ramp up production to replace an aging auto fleet while some other states lost some businesses and new businesses had to start from nothing to replace them.

[LMich]

BTW, I was looking at the components of change (http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popm/pm2160.htm) for the Detroit MSA that go all the way up to 2007, and while it seems that out migration has sped up, the metro's immigration rate is actually pretty stable and has actually picked up a bit from mid-decade. The same goes for the state as a whole. I bet you everything has slowed down, since then, but I'm glad to see that if we ever get the out-migration back under control that it wouldn't take much to get back to healthy growth, again.

[DecoJim]

I wonder if all those artists buying cheap houses in the city of Detroit will show up as a component of change? ;)
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=166365

[hudkina]

"healthy growth"? You can argue Detroit hasn't had "healthy" growth since the 1920's...;) It's good for now that Detroit hasn't seen the explosive growth that the sun belt (soon to be dust belt) cities have had this decade. Hopefully if the metro area does ever see a time of steady growth in the future, it will be a more sustainable growth. We need less sprawling exurban messes, and more transit-oriented development!

[LMich]

By healthy growth, I meant simply something at least approaching the national average, for once. lol I don't know what 'healthy' means to everyone else, these days, but 20% and 30% growth wasn't what I was getting at.

[hudkina]

I know, but I think the era of uncontrolled fringe development might be coming to an end, and its good that Detroit wasn't as big of player in that type of development. Hopefully if Metro Detroit starts seeing modest population gain, it will be in places like Detroit, Royal Oak, St. Clair Shores and not in places like Ray TWP, Groveland TWP, or Sumpter TWP.

[puckle74]

It's such a unique geography! I just don't get how drab, landlocked places like Georgia and Arizona are fast outgrowing it. What's the appeal?

1. Jobs
2. lower taxes
3. better weather

[hudkina]

Georgia and Arizona don't have "better" weather. They have different weather.

[BG918]

I've wondered about Michigan too in that the scenery with the lakes is fantastic and should be something people are attracted to and the cities near it. I know the weather is cold and dreary in the winter but the summers are nice. How does a state like Minnesota that really is land-locked (except the far NE corner) continue to attract lots of people when it's more isolated and colder?

[vid]

Minnesota has one of the best qualities of life in the US.

[Hayward]

Minnesota has one of the best qualities of life in the US.

I agree with that.

[LMich]

Yeah, it's a true statement, but it really doesn't have any bearing to what we're talking about. The high quality of life is/was a result, not a cause.

A Minnesota and Michigan comparison is apples and oranges, though, outside of pretty much putting away the false idea about weather that so many outside the South and West don't ever really seem to understand. Everyone knows that the culture on the other side of the lake is different and that Michigan is much closer grouped with an Indiana or Ohio than a Wisconsin or Minnesota. To be sure, there is no one answer to why this is.

I think a major part has to do with how the states were settled, by whom, and the type of economies that developed. Ethnically, for instance Minnesota has always been more homogenous, so you've always had fewer competing interests and more social cooperation, I'd imagine. Michigan, on the other hand, has been and is just about everything from Dutch stronghold that largely keeps to itself on the west side of the state, to a Southeast Michigan that has been and is everything from Polish, to German, to African-American, to Arab, with a huge Southern influx...an upper peninsula that may as well be another world, etc. So, you've got a whole bunch of different value systems and competing interests that colors every other aspect of this (i.e. economy, education, etc.)

[hudkina]

I think Michigan has much more in common with Minnesota and Wisconsin than it does with Ohio and especially Indiana. While the northern 1/3 of those two states are similar in nature to the Upper Midwest, once you start getting south of Fort Wayne or Akron, Indiana and Ohio are a whole different world. Granted, Michigan did receive a ton of southern transplants during the early 20th century that mostly stayed away from Minnesota and Wisconsin.

[ColDayMan]

Ohio's closer in culture to Pennsylvania than Indiana or Michigan (rural Appalachian culture + African-American + southern half OH vs northern half OH = eastern half PA vs western half PA + Amish Quakers and Root Beer + Farm boys in flat area). Indiana is more in-line with Illinois while Michigan is Indiana with Minnesota traits and pretty lakes + Detroit.

[LMich]

...while Michigan is Indiana with Minnesota traits

:haha:

BTW, in an issue that goes along with this, a Detroit Free Press article from yesterday took another look at the so-called brain drain. The title is a bit deceptive, because the article seems to show it's vastly overstated, but I thought I'd post it as it relates to the issue:



Fewer college grads moving to Michigan, demographer finds (http://www.freep.com/article/20090426/NEWS06/904260601)

BY CHRIS CHRISTOFF • FREE PRESS LANSING BUREAU CHIEF • April 26, 2009

Michigan's "brain drain" isn't as bad as it might seem.

That's the opinion of state demographer Ken Darga, the state's leading authority on Michigan's population by the numbers. He said Michigan has retained college graduates better than most states, even as the recession worsened.

But since 2004, far fewer young college grads from other states have moved to Michigan than in previous years, creating a net loss. The number of those leaving Michigan actually has leveled off.

"The brain drain is a very serious concern," Darga said. "The big misunderstanding is that it's a chronic problem. It's not a chronic problem. It's a fairly recent development."

Still, the net decline in recent college graduates making Michigan their home worries Lansing's policymakers, as the unemployment rate soars and the Detroit Three automakers limp along.

It's among the many population trends Darga studies. As Michigan's top liaison to the U.S. Census Bureau, Darga helps the bureau get Michigan's population numbers right.

The 57-year-old Detroit native and University of Michigan graduate has been state demographer since 1991.

This week, Darga and fellow state demographers convene in Detroit for the latest on population facts, figures and counting methods.

Darga said for every person counted in the census the state receives about $1,000 in federal aid. He once found that Macomb County's population was undercounted by 50,000 because of a census mix-up over ZIP codes. Now, Darga wants to prove that the U.S. Census undercounts Michigan residents who live part of the year in other states, such as snowbirds who spend winters in southern states.

Darga -- who says he even dreams about numbers -- said the state must count 90,000 more residents than the 2008 census bureau Michigan estimate to avoid losing one of its 15 seats in the U.S. House of Representatives.

He said if Michigan residents get their census form in another state, they should not fill it out, but rather write "usual residence elsewhere" on it and mail it back.

"When they get back to Michigan, there will be a form waiting for them at their house," he said.

Darga said other states will become less attractive to college graduates as their unemployment rates rise. He said about 60% of young college graduates born in Michigan still live here.

When foreign-born residents with college degrees are counted, Michigan looks even better. (Michigan has a higher percentage of foreign-born residents with college degrees than the national average.)

In January 2008, Michigan's unemployment rate was around 6.5%; now it's 12.6%. Now, 39 states' unemployment rates top 6.5%.

"There's coming to be less migration from one state to another," Darga said. "That also happened during the Great Depression. What migration there was was people returning home."

For up-to-date census information, visit www.michigan.gov/census.

Contact CHRIS CHRISTOFF: 517-372-8660 or christoff@freepress.com

[Atlantan26]

^ I know, and I'm not here to knock on Arizona. I'm sure there are great qualities to both Arizona and Georgia. But when it comes to water access, none of them come even close. Add to that the fact that much of Georgia's growth is occurring in metro Atlanta, far from the Atlantic seaboard.

The uniqueness of Michigan's geography, ie being a pair of peninsulas immersed in massive freshwater lakes, is really quite extraordinary. It is said that nowhere in Michigan will you be more than 85 miles from one of the Great Lakes.

I moved to Georgia from the midwest and trust me this area is Gorgeous compared to Ohio and Michigan, especially with the mild weather in winter instead of snow and overcast. The huge trees and greenery are amazing. Atlanta and Savannah are some of the most beautiful cities in the world.

[ginsan2]

I moved to Georgia from the midwest and trust me this area is Gorgeous compared to Ohio and Michigan, especially with the mild weather in winter instead of snow and overcast. The huge trees and greenery are amazing. Atlanta and Savannah are some of the most beautiful cities in the world.

You're not going to win any votes here. The terrible weather and drab, flat landscape are just problems that can never be corrected... And as such, the locals don't want to believe it changes anything.

[LMich]

You're not going to win any votes here. The terrible weather and drab, flat landscape are just problems that can never be corrected... And as such, the locals don't want to believe it changes anything.

Yes, folks, those of you outside of the tropics and those of you on flatlands should just pack it in, already, and come down to be powerfully moved, forever enriched, and perpetually awed by the unparalleled physical beauty of...inland and coastal Georgia. A man can not live a meaningful life lest he lives it in Dixie and west of the Rockies. Chicago, New York, London, Moscow, Stockholm, Tokyo...you hear that? Game over, man. Pity be to the poor, foolish Flatlanders and Fresh Coasters. But a glance upon the rolling Southern Piedmont will change you forever, and you shall be forgiven for believing anything as or more beautiful. A single whiff of the virginal Georgian Lowlands, and you will rue to your last breath not having brought yourself to smell everyday, earlier. Repent, you innately corrupted Midwesterners! Repent!

Ginsan, you just keep topping yourself. Bless your heart.

[hudkina]

ginsan2, why the hell are you so bitter? Why not just swallow the whole bottle of those pills you're taking if you hate the world so much? Maybe cut your inner-thigh a little...

BTW, last time I checked this was in Michigan:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/83/265105589_6c9cc86386_o.jpg
© mandj98 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mandj98/)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/37/121552048_d2676d1539_o.jpg
© soundfromwayout (http://www.flickr.com/photos/soundfromwayout/)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/2811608135_5c4d1af3ef_b.jpg
© dayznfuz (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23493686@N06/)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3470/3317873872_238aebd2e7_b.jpg
© ansonredford (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ansonredford/)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1279/973542359_1dbdbce27d_b.jpg
© norjam8 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/norjam8/)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3226/2896835697_06695dac67_b.jpg
© Dan Irving (http://www.flickr.com/photos/danirving/)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3129/2911530542_de7caf23c6_b.jpg
© Dan Irving (http://www.flickr.com/photos/danirving/)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3229/3069011414_10872ed114_o.jpg
© nullsession (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nullsession/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2353/2162814018_afed8c82a3_b.jpg
© Boyne_Michigan (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7231064@N03/)


And if anyone thinks three months of 90+ degrees and extreme humidity equates to great weather, good for them. I'll take my three months of winter over a terribly disgusting summer.

[puckle74]

Yes, folks, those of you outside of the tropics and those of you on flatlands should just pack it in, already, and come down to be powerfully moved, forever enriched, and perpetually awed by the unparalleled physical beauty of...inland and coastal Georgia. A man can not live a meaningful life lest he lives it in Dixie and west of the Rockies. Chicago, New York, London, Moscow, Stockholm, Tokyo...you hear that? Game over, man. Pity be to the poor, foolish Flatlanders and Fresh Coasters. But a glance upon the rolling Southern Piedmont will change you forever, and you shall be forgiven for believing anything as or more beautiful. A single whiff of the virginal Georgian Lowlands, and you will rue to your last breath not having brought yourself to smell everyday, earlier. Repent, you innately corrupted Midwesterners! Repent!

Ginsan, you just keep topping yourself. Bless your heart.

LMich, millions of Americans agree with the above mentioned sentiments:
Regional Trends

In 1900, the majority (62 percent) of the U.S. population
lived in either the Northeast or the Midwest. However,
by the end of the century, the majority (58 percent) of
the population resided in either the South or West.

From 1900 to 2000, Florida’s ranking in population
size increased more than any other state, from 33rd to
4th, followed by Arizona’s, from 48th to 20th. Iowa’s
ranking declined the most, from 10th in 1900 to 30th
in 2000.

The gains in total population share of the
South and the West occurred at the expense of corresponding
losses in population share of the Northeast
an Midwest.

Seems like the Midwest will continue to decline. Sorry.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/censr-4.pdfd the Midwest.

[LMich]

I'm confused as to how something so obvious is even relevant to what we're talking about. You just posted a trend that's been going on for decades as if no one knew it was going on, as if you were reporting to us something we didn't know. I know you're new, here, but that was just really kind of pitiful. I was remarking on the weather/climate/geography silliness that pops up everytime the region is mentioned, and then you go posting about a general, well-known trend. It's a non sequitur.

[Jeff_in_Dayton]

It is odd to see the growth in the Upper Penninsula. I guess this is a retiree population, or that these areas have just bottomed out and are starting to register net growth due to natural increase?

[puckle74]

I'm confused as to how something so obvious is even relevant to what we're talking about. You just posted a trend that's been going on for decades as if no one knew it was going on, as if you were reporting to us something we didn't know. I know you're new, here, but that was just really kind of pitiful. I was remarking on the weather/climate/geography silliness that pops up everytime the region is mentioned, and then you go posting about a general, well-known trend. It's a non sequitur.

Sorry to make you so angry LMich. I am aware of the rules; though I haven't posted much I've been lurking here for years. To your second point: I posted the census data to reiterate the shear scale of the midwest's decline.

To your third point: weather is one of the important reasons for millions of Americans to move from the Midwest and Northeast to the South and West annually. Yes some of them move because of the plentiful jobs here, some because the of the lower cost of living, but a great many people move here because there tired of shoveling snow for six months out of the year. This fact is over looked too often in the discussions of the decline of the Midwest. Here in the South the weather's warmer, the air is better, and the landscape is beautiful, I suspect that the great majority of Michigan residents would move to Georgia if they had the chance.

[hudkina]

Are you kidding me? You're that egotistical?;) First of all, the people who move away do so because of economics. If there weren't jobs and cheap housing in the South, nobody would move there. Secondly, the idea that you think people actually think Georgia is some kind of paradise is ignorant at best. Did you ever possibly think that maybe people do like having all four seasons? That people actually enjoy living near the world's largest supply of fresh water? That many people would rather weather three months of a Michigan winter than three months of a ridiculously hot and humid Georgian summer?

Hell, it seems to me that the only people around here that would even think of moving to Georgia are African Americans who think Atlanta is the new southern black mecca.

[puckle74]

Are you kidding me? You're that egotistical?;) First of all, the people who move away do so because of economics. If there weren't jobs and cheap housing in the South, nobody would move there.

Yes that's true economics drives a lot of the movement which is why in the above mentioned post I noted Georgia's lower taxes for a friendly business climate. Comfortable weather is still very important to explaining the population shift though.

Secondly, the idea that you think people actually think Georgia is some kind of paradise is ignorant at best. Did you ever possibly think that maybe people do like having all four seasons? That people actually enjoy living near the world's largest supply of fresh water? That many people would rather weather three months of a Michigan winter than three months of a ridiculously hot and humid Georgian summer?

Why does Georgia (and North & South Carolina too) have so many retirees relocating here? The data (as referenced in the Census report) supports the notion that many people are moving South for relaxation not work. Some may like the four seasons (and the back breaking efforts to shovel snow that comes with it) but the data suggest that millions more prefer the sunny skies and fresh air of Georgia.

Hell, it seems to me that the only people around here that would even think of moving to Georgia are African Americans who think Atlanta is the new southern black mecca.

Maybe that’s true, but aren't African Americans a huge percentage of the Michigan pop? anyway I think Georgia is welcoming of people of all races to move South and contribute to its growth.

[hudkina]

Wow. You are hilarious!

I'm sorry, What "fresh" air are you talking about? Most people who move to Georgia move to the Atlanta area. Atlanta has some of the worst air quality in the nation. Also have you ever shoveled snow? You think it's back-breaking? I know that the south has some of the highest obesity rates in the nation, but I didn't realize that shoveling snow was that big of a chore.;) Also, you have heard of this "new" invention called the snow blower, right?

Also, how often do you think it snows? You act like people have to shovel their sidewalk every day for six months. Most snowfall is a light dusting that even a small amount of salt will dissolve. There might be three or four major snowfalls in a given winter that require shoveling snow.

[LMich]

It is odd to see the growth in the Upper Penninsula. I guess this is a retiree population, or that these areas have just bottomed out and are starting to register net growth due to natural increase?

The map actually shows that most of the UP is still losing population. Most of the counties that are growing at the ones with the few "major" cities in the region. Outside of those, most of the old mining and lumber counties are still losing out. Most of the UP is much better off than Northern Michigan, though, and I think the lack of major universities has a lot to do with that trend. Though many haven't much heard of them, Norther Michigan in Marquette and Michigan Tech in Hancock/Houghton contribute a whole lot to those areas of the UP.

Puckle, you're a complete joke who'd have been better lurking. If you'd like to engage is serious discussion and debate, that's one thing, but unless you're going to do that, you can be ignored. More importantly, if you're in the Midwest forum just to troll, well, you can then be removed. It's ultimately your call. Suffering fools is not what we do best, thank god.

[UglymanCometh]

Hell, it seems to me that the only people around here that would even think of moving to Georgia are African Americans who think Atlanta is the new southern black mecca.

That's true.

And it's why I'm NOT moving to Atlanta. ;)

[jodelli]

Some may like the four seasons (and the back breaking efforts to shovel snow that comes with it)

Wimp.;)
SE Michigan isn't Buffalo by a long shot.
"I wouldn't ever live in Oklahoma" seems siily when you can live your entire life there and never see an F4 or F5.
Same with the snow in Michigan. It's not like it's Greenland.

I know where of I speak. My cousin from Florida came skiing with me once and the poor guy was feeling the cold already when I was just getting started. He's pretty athletic in his own element.


Maybe that’s true, but aren't African Americans a huge percentage of the Michigan pop?

Actually, no. But the number in the city of Detroit has been nearly a constant at or around approx. the 3/4 million mark since about the mid seventies. Maybe this is what you're thinking about.

[Phizzy]

Any organization showing Dearborn and Hamtramck (like the Census is estimating) losing population is an organization I take with a grain of salt.

They got it really wrong in the 1990s for Dearborn and Hamtramck, for what it is worth. Along with Grand Rapids and some other places, those were some of the worst estimates.

Dearborn:

Census April 1, 1990 89,119
Estimate July 1, 1990 89,000
Estimate July 1, 1991 88,907
Estimate July 1, 1992 88,533
Estimate July 1, 1993 88,317
Estimate July 1, 1994 88,673
Estimate July 1, 1995 88,335
Estimate July 1, 1996 88,158
Estimate July 1, 1997 88,240
Estimate July 1, 1998 88,616
Estimate July 1, 1999 88,215
Projection April 1, 2000 88,142 *
Census April 1, 2000 97,703
Difference 9,561

Hamtramck:

Census April 1, 1990 18,506
Estimate July 1, 1990 18,430
Estimate July 1, 1991 18,438
Estimate July 1, 1992 18,573
Estimate July 1, 1993 18,595
Estimate July 1, 1994 18,504
Estimate July 1, 1995 18,508
Estimate July 1, 1996 18,604
Estimate July 1, 1997 18,609
Estimate July 1, 1998 18,158
Estimate July 1, 1999 17,801
Projection April 1, 2000 17,746 *
Census April 1, 2000 22,976
Difference 5,230

* My projection based on U.S. Census Bureau estimates and trends.

[Phizzy]

...but a great many people move here because there tired of shoveling snow for six months out of the year.

Some may like the four seasons (and the back breaking efforts to shovel snow that comes with it)...

Do you suppose you are exaggerating a bit? ;) Shoveling snow six months out of the year?

Detroit's average snowfall, per month:

November: 3.0 inches
December: 10.2
January: 10.2
February: 9.1
March: 7.0
April: 1.7
Other months: a trace or nothing

Granted, there is sometimes a small amount of snow in November and April, but you might not even find a need to shovel. Even in December and January, unless the snowfalls happen all at once (versus spread out over the month), you won't find yourself faced with "back breaking" snow shoveling. And, of course, many people have a mechanized snow thrower or snow plow. (Do people in the south still use old-fashioned, manual lawn mowers? Or scythes or sickles?)

Of course, coming from the south, where they freak out at 2 inches of snow (with mass business and school cancellations, a run on bread, milk, and toilet paper, etc. :D), I can see how you can perceive 1.7 inches of snow in a month daunting.

I just am happy I don't live in Florida or Georgia and have to deal with hurricanes nine months out of the year. I'd break my back having to constantly board up my windows.

[vid]

In Thunder Bay (google it) we only really have to shovel our driveways maybe 10 times a year, between late November and early April, and most people have snowblowers so it isn't that much of a problem.

[hudkina]

This last winter I didn't shovel my sidewalk once!:D

[UpNorthMI]

Its a different story up here in the snow belt of Northern Michigan where we do have to shovel snow at least 4 months of the year. Between November and March we average between 12 to 20 inches per during those months, which of course is BS seeing as how we had 127 inches last year.

But like Phizzy said, I wouldn't want to live in Florida either.

[Hayward]

This last winter I didn't shovel my sidewalk once!:D

Yeah if you don't give a sh!t, otherwise I don't buy that.

I live in Ann Arbor and our landlord probably shoveled 40+ times this year. The sidewalks were impassable on somedays this winter, even with my Timberland boots. Screw the "oh it's really not that bad" If you move to this state, come prepared to scrape some snow and ice off the pavement, sometimes twice a day. I got an arsenal of photos of just how ugly winters can get here in southeast Michigan. If you live in a city like Ann Arbor that doesn't plow residential streets, you are in a world of trouble trying to get out of that parking spot. I really hate winter mornings in Michigan, but I love the midwest so I'm not about to leave for warmer climate. My next apartment though will definitely have underground parking

[LMich]

I must admit, having to wake up extra early in the winter just to clean off your car makes you envy those with garages. I can't tell you how many a car I curse that speckled with snow during a winter morning after a snow night. lol Heated parking is a big selling point, here. The Motor Wheels Lofts (the old auto parts supplier warehouse, downtown) advertises the hell out of its "heated, underground parking".

Even worse than snow, though, are the days so cold that your doors freeze shut and you realize you're out de-icer and go get a pitcher of steaming hot water which you make sure to pore quickly and yank the door open before it all freezes, again. :)

[Hayward]

Heck, I'd just take an off street parking spot. Then again, the only time I ever drove was to go to Chicago or to visit the parents, so I guess I really shouldn't be complaining. Nothing beats waking up to seeing a 3 foot high snowbank running alongside the row of parallel parked cars.

[hudkina]

My complex pays to have the snow removed and I have a garage.