[miketoronto]

I was at a public meeting in my area of Toronto the other day concerning the possible removal of the downtown Gardiner Expressway.

Anyway as I was expecting, people in my area were very against the idea of taking it down. They said it is the only fast way into the downtown area and that they like going downtown and want to get there fast.

When transit was mentioned, they all said the same thing and that is they can drive downtown in 30 minutes or less, and transit takes over one hour even using the so called "rapid transit".
The mood in the room was pretty much the same with residents saying they won't use transit unless it speeds up.

Then yesterday the news actually did a little test of trying to take the transit to the airport, and the reporter had to stop as it was taking to long. In this case over two hours to go what only takes 30 minutes in a car.

Then today the news interviewed transit riders and it was the same story that it takes them over an hour to go places that only take 20 minutes in a car.

This begs the question. Why are transit systems not doing something to become more competitive? Transit systems build these rapid transit systems that really are not rapid for most people, and induce transfers, etc. And at the end of the day it still takes us forever to get anywhere.

I think it was said very well at my public meeting. Speed up transit or we will continue to drive.

[Justin10000]

*tumbleweed rolling by*

[brickell]

Money, money and money.

Although it's nice to see that a transit haven like Toronto has the same problems that little ol' Miami does. I guess I shouldn't complain.

[racc]

Or just wait till gas prices skyrocket after the recession is over. The credit crunch and falling oil prices has basically stopped exploration and development of new supplies meaning that there likely will be major shortages and price increases soon.

[natelox]

Transit is inherently slower than the car. The car is for the individual, and only serves their needs. Transit is for the collective, and serves everyone's needs (stops at every stop, doesn't get you directly to your destination, may need transfers). The solution isn't in making transit faster, but in making it more viable, hence the removal of roads to create congestion, or to introduce congestion pricing.

[Jon Dalton]

Actually something is being done about it.

http://www.news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2009/04/canada-ontario-invest-in-go-service-improvements-across-the-gta.html

As for those idiots at the meeting you went to, well, people are idiots and that accounts for 99% of where we are.

They say the Gardiner is fast? Interesting, I was on it yesterday and it didn't seem fast as I watched the GO trains rolling by.

[miketoronto]

Jon Dalton, even in peak hours the car is usually faster than taking transit from Scarborough into downtown. My dad for example drove downtown to work for 25 years, and he did the trip in 25 minutes, vs one hour and a half on transit.
I always use transit, but I have caught a ride with my friend sometimes in the heart of rush hour, and even with traffic we beat transit home, saving 20-30 minutes over taking transit.
The traffic is not as bad as it is made out to be.

If transit was meeting the needs of the community than more people would be using it.


The following is from Metro Transit in Halifax on their report for transit expansion.

----
http://www.halifax.ca/MetroTransit/news/documents/RegionalTransitPlan.pdf

Travel time has been identified as a key factor in the decision to use transit, both in extensive industry research as well as the local community consultation.

Routes should be designed to provide a service trip within approximately 10
percent of the travel time for the similar trip made by auto. This measurement
should take into account door-to-door travel time, and make allowance for
parking as a time cost in the auto trip.
-----

[alexjon]

Then drive, Mike. It's clear that you aren't interested one iota in those who prefer transit and it's clear that you have no understanding of the political process, property law and general public opinion matters.

Just drive.

So many transit wonks forget the politics involved, especially those who demand mode superiority or social engineering.

Get good and comfortable with disappointment, Mike.

[Justin10000]

If 20-30 minutes a day is so important to someone, then they are not going to mind the cost, and stress of owning a car.

Why do you on keep on bringing up this one single issue? Everyone already knows the outcome, when you focus purely on travel-time, and speed. You only achieve modest ridership gains.

[Jon Dalton]

Driving is faster because our planning over the last 50 years has given precedence to the worst, most inefficient form of transportation at the expense of all others. If auto infrastructure is maintained at current levels and transit is boosted at the rate we're beginning to see, this situation of 'cars are fast, transit is slow' will rectify itself.

[Strange Meat]

Driving is faster because of the networks we have created, and the simple fact that when YOU are driving, you don't have to stop for others, as mentioned before, because it is an entirely self service process. Moreover, you can do things like speed, take alternate routes/side streets to skirt traffic, etc. Of COURSE it's faster.

You know, running is faster than walking, but, if your legs are broken, then what?

[miketoronto]

Driving may be faster, but transit can compete better than it does. There are sections of the city where transit competes very well with the car and only takes 5-10 minutes longer than driving. The key is proper routes are in place.

Not having proper rapid transit in place to large swaths of the city and than saying that people at a meeting who complain about slow transit are stupid, is just wrong. We are not talking about transit taking 5-15 minutes longer. If it was just that than I myself would not complain. But when it is taking people over double the time, or 45-60 minutes longer than driving, than the transit commission is at fault.

There is major room for improvment and transit commissions must be held more to the task.

[Jon Dalton]

The GO / TTC is not a world class network by any means, and people should be complaining about it. I take it seriously when people who use and understand transit are critical, but what you described was a bunch of idiots who don't have a clue.

[alexjon]

Mike, you act like you can put forth a plan and have it magically be approved and work as intended.

Unfortunately, so do many transit wonks and planners. This is one big reason transit has fallen so hard. They think it's "study, make a plan, ask for money, build as planned" when the reality is "study, make plan, ask for money, go back to study again, redo plan, ask for money again, study, talk to stakeholders, redo plan, talk to residents, redo plan, ask for more money, redo plan, study again, ask for more money, go out to vote, lose vote, redo plan, ask for more money, go out to vote, barely win, exceed time or money allocation, redo plan, put off opening, redo plan, open system, redo plan, redo plan, redo plan."

[zilfondel]

Somehow I could just sense this was a miketoronto thread!

[DJM19]

sometimes, though not always, the rail line is forced to go [seemingly] excessively slow. Especially in residential areas, because people complain about it (though, miraculously, managed not to jump in front of a "speeding" train)

[emathias]

Cars and transit all have their place. If you're willing to live in a suburban-style area, and spend the money on road maintenance and cars, and expressways, then cars will always be the fastest way to get around. It's just physics.

But if you want to live in denser, more urban environments, a lot of trips will start to become comparable.

Yet, even then, during non-peak hours, cars can be faster. I don't think anyone will dispute that, off-hours, taxis are the absolute ideal mode of transit. They're shared, they're available to pick you up where you want to start from and to drop you where you want to be dropped, eliminating waiting, and walking portions associated with any transit.

The "trouble," if you want to call it that, is the cost not only of the roads and expressways, but the parking and the car and the type of environment required to make cars ideal all the time.

I don't support the idea of intentionally making cars difficult with fees and intentional slowing, but I do think that requiring spending on things like parking or road space only really used at peak hours is not always wise. Some roads are always necessary, but high-speed-rated roads everywhere comes at a cost that isn't always fully accounted for.

[tdawg]

I could drive into Midtown Manhattan in 15 minutes versus 30 on the subway, but then you have to worry about finding parking, paying and arm and a leg and other unknowns, such as traffic or the risk of an accident. It's a trade-off but in the end, riding the subway is less of a hassle.

[Jaroslaw]

This begs the question. Why are transit systems not doing something to become more competitive?

Uh... can you think of an example of any government agency, not just in Canada but in most countries of the Western world, that does its job well, with motivation to serve the greater good above all?

The solution isn't in making transit faster, but in making it more viable, hence the removal of roads to create congestion, or to introduce congestion pricing.

Let's not improve infrastructure. Let's not improve rapid transit, and let's tear up the roads that previous generations built. Sounds like a recipe for a revolution. Let's deliberately lower people's standard of living, by making them waste more time in commuting or jacking up their taxes. By the way, depending on the model adopted, congestion prices tends to spread out the rush hour and leads to lower travel times, therefore discouraging the use of mass transit.

Miketoronto, you're getting flak for asking these naive, childish questions... but these are the right questions to ask. You represent reality on this forum. :tup:

[Jaroslaw]

I could drive into Midtown Manhattan in 15 minutes versus 30 on the subway, but then you have to worry about finding parking, paying and arm and a leg and other unknowns, such as traffic or the risk of an accident. It's a trade-off but in the end, riding the subway is less of a hassle.

That's true, and it means that driving has become a privilege of and a pleasure for the rich. They've reduced congestion for themselves essentially by making it too expensive for the proles to drive. Kind of like what Hong Kong or Singapore have done, with their breathtaking import duties and car registration fees... I'm all for public transit, but this is really such a class issue, and transit advocates overlook that.

[Jasonhouse]

sometimes, though not always, the rail line is forced to go [seemingly] excessively slow. Especially in residential areas, because people complain about it (though, miraculously, managed not to jump in front of a "speeding" train)
This is because of safety, but also noise and even vibrations, which can damage structures.

I've wondered for a while now why the way tracks are laid can't be modified in some way to reduce the impact of sound and vibrations on nearby neighborhoods, relating to the train's movement. Like with rubber inserts, or something along those lines. I doubt it would be cheap necessarily, but it's the sort of thing that can really alter perceptions.

From what I understand, this is one of the pluses of monorail systems... They're significantly quieter than other rail options. (especially monorails running on tires)... And of course, mag-lev is about as silent as such a mode of transport is going to get.

[zilfondel]

The new streetcar tracks being laid in Portland are in a rubber boot that supposedly reduces vibrations and electrically insulates it.

[harryc]

Transit is inherently slower than the car. The car is for the individual, and only serves their needs. Transit is for the collective, and serves everyone's needs (stops at every stop, doesn't get you directly to your destination, may need transfers). The solution isn't in making transit faster, but in making it more viable, hence the removal of roads to create congestion, or to introduce congestion pricing.

Not here, My commute by bike & El (Subway) is faster than if I drive when parking is included.

This is because when transit became an unbearable burden I moved to a place with transit lines that served my main employment center, and take jobs only there.

[Jon Dalton]

Not here, My commute by bike & El (Subway) is faster than if I drive when parking is included.

This is because when transit became an unbearable burden I moved to a place with transit lines that served my main employment center, and take jobs only there.

That is a key point. If you want to take advantage of transit there are options to live in the suburbs close to an existing route. By virtue of its geographical area, rapid transit will never serve an entire metropolitan area. I have the feeling Mike's example of the 1 hour commute from Scarborough is far from a GO or TTC station and requires 1 or 2 bus transfers.

People can continue to complain about traffic, which will never improve, or take steps to find a better way. For many people driving is the only option, but most of them never considered the implications when buying a house or accepting a new job. My commute is roughly as long as the drive, but faster when traffic is worse than average. Now I won't move out of the area or accept a job that isn't accessible by transit, it's as simple as that.

[ssiguy]

I think one area that has not been taken advantage of by a lot of NA cities are express buses on bus-only lanes.
Often suburban travel or spot-to-spot travel takes for ever due to rapid transit or commuter rail can't be justified.
Bus-only rapid transit or HOV along freeways can be very effective for trips of more than 3-4km with stations every few km.
Vancouver has done a good job of bus-only/HOV lanes along its freeways and the suburban buses are significantly faster than taking your car in rush hour.

[SpongeG]

some nice sentiments but most people don't have the luxury of choosing their jobs and choosing where they can afford to live

maybe when you are younger and starting out but than you get married, have kids and their well being is the most important issue

in an ideal world everyone would live in a place where they could walk to work, walk to school, walk to shops, church, meetings, clubs whatever but thats not reality

[miketoronto]

By virtue of its geographical area, rapid transit will never serve an entire metropolitan area. I have the feeling Mike's example of the 1 hour commute from Scarborough is far from a GO or TTC station and requires 1 or 2 bus transfers.


That is the sad part. I am not far from rapid transit. My home is a 5 min bus ride from a subway station. It is the subway that takes 45 minutes or longer to get downtown, compared with 20 minutes driving. Now this is also an issue due to the nature of having to transfer twice on the rapid transit network onto two other lines to get downtown.

[SpongeG]

how do you propose they speed it up?

they do have to make stops along the way in between

wherever they start or stop someone is going to be inconvenienced

[miketoronto]

how do you propose they speed it up?

they do have to make stops along the way in between

wherever they start or stop someone is going to be inconvenienced

Its simple. Commuter rail in my area has to be beefed up to Metropolitan Rail standards like Australian cities.

In addition subway or LRT lines that do not stop every two blocks are needed to service the outter areas of the city.

[SpongeG]

thats one way

so like say making the subway skip every other station? would that help? and as each train comes it skips a station or two? but its staggered so every station is stopped at some point...

I think they tried that here in rush hour - some trains would go past some stations without stopping - but i think it didn't help much as there was no way to get around other trains on the system

sounds like a plan though

[SpongeG]

I think one area that has not been taken advantage of by a lot of NA cities are express buses on bus-only lanes.
Often suburban travel or spot-to-spot travel takes for ever due to rapid transit or commuter rail can't be justified.
Bus-only rapid transit or HOV along freeways can be very effective for trips of more than 3-4km with stations every few km.
Vancouver has done a good job of bus-only/HOV lanes along its freeways and the suburban buses are significantly faster than taking your car in rush hour.

yes for sure

what they need o do is more suburb-suburb direct routes like Richmond - Surrey or Coquitlam - Surrey etc

[emathias]

some nice sentiments but most people don't have the luxury of choosing their jobs and choosing where they can afford to live

maybe when you are younger and starting out but than you get married, have kids and their well being is the most important issue

in an ideal world everyone would live in a place where they could walk to work, walk to school, walk to shops, church, meetings, clubs whatever but thats not reality

It's reality in a lot of places where people value it. It will never be reality when people don't actually value it. I know enough people with kids with lifestyles very similar to what you describe. It's about actually working for what you want instead of settling for what's easy. It's also about knowing what you want and what has real value instead of chasing things pop culture tells you is "necessary" for children to have. Children need parents who work hard, have strong principles and rational, sustainable values. Past that, they're resilient and can trive almost anywhere.

[Justin10000]

While Mr. Toronto bitches, and complain, he fails to mention that GO Transit is setting forward plans to significantly improve service along all commuter rail lines. New Transit lines are being built.

The problem is there is a small minority of commuters like Mr. Toronto, where any attempt to improve transit will ever be good enough.

[alexjon]

While Mr. Toronto bitches, and complain, he fails to mention that GO Transit is setting forward plans to significantly improve service along all commuter rail lines. New Transit lines are being built.

The problem is, that there is a small minority of like Mr. Toronto, where nothing will ever be good enough.

This is the thing-- he and his kin know they're wrong, but that's why they keep saying what they're saying. At some point, "wrong" will be mistaken for "right" when something goes awry.

[Buckeye Native 001]

This is the thing-- he and his kin know they're wrong, but that's why they keep saying what they're saying. At some point, "wrong" will be mistaken for "right" when something goes awry.

As the old saying goes: Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

These trainwreck rants would be entertaining if they weren't so goddamn ignorant.

[Jon Dalton]

some nice sentiments but most people don't have the luxury of choosing their jobs and choosing where they can afford to live

maybe when you are younger and starting out but than you get married, have kids and their well being is the most important issue

in an ideal world everyone would live in a place where they could walk to work, walk to school, walk to shops, church, meetings, clubs whatever but thats not reality

Everyone chooses their job and where they live. Of course changes can't be made immediately but everyone can work towards a better situation. Everyone chooses based on what they percieve to be quality of life, and for me that's localized living and not having to depend on cars. For most people that is not even a factor, let alone the priority.

If everyone wanted to live in a place where they could walk to work, school, etc. there would be alot of construction going on where I live, because it's got all of that. Instead, there are many empty lots, vacant storefronts and half empty offices. People obviously don't value those things very much by and large.

[miketoronto]

While Mr. Toronto bitches, and complain, he fails to mention that GO Transit is setting forward plans to significantly improve service along all commuter rail lines. New Transit lines are being built.

The problem is there is a small minority of commuters like Mr. Toronto, where any attempt to improve transit will ever be good enough.

Justin, the GO plans will do almost nothing for Scarborough residents. You call a train once an hour good? That is not going to attract many people. Add in the fact there is no fare intergration, and the plans do nothing to improve our commute, unless you live next to a GO Station and can put up with the one hour wait for a train.

Actually at the community meeting I was at residents said they won't use GO Transit in Scarborough eventhough they live near it, because they will not be tied to a schedule with a train only every hour or every 30 minutes.

Build up the GO network into an Australian Metropolitan Train network with trains every 10-15 minutes, than we will talk.

[alexjon]

Australia is an inferior system when compared to Japan, so I don't know why you think you're making a point.

Wrong still isn't right, Mike. Keep reaching for those stars.

[racc]

maybe when you are younger and starting out but than you get married, have kids and their well being is the most important issue


If you have kids, better start caring about their future. Maybe leave them with some oil and might want to think about doing everything you can to stop climate change.

[Justin10000]

Justin, the GO plans will do almost nothing for Scarborough residents. You call a train once an hour good? That is not going to attract many people. Add in the fact there is no fare intergration, and the plans do nothing to improve our commute, unless you live next to a GO Station and can put up with the one hour wait for a train.

GO is planning 15 to 20 minute service on all lines. It takes time to get this done. But GO does own the entire Stouffville line. The TTC has the necessary funds for the SRT upgrade, and possibly interlining with Eglinton Crosstown. The Sheppard LRT lis funded. Hopefuly the TTC improves connections to the GO stations too. Either way, service to Scarborough is going to improve significantly.



Actually at the community meeting I was at residents said they won't use GO Transit in Scarborough eventhough they live near it, because they will not be tied to a schedule with a train only every hour or every 30 minutes.

Whatever. When the service improves, they'll use it. People like to talk shit, and their actions almost never live up to their words.


Build up the GO network into an Australian Metropolitan Train network with trains every 10-15 minutes, than we will talk.

IT'S HAPPENING. It TAKES TIME! It's not going to happen overnight. If you cannot see this, or are impatient, drive, or move closer.

You cannot post threads like these, without at least giving members the facts. Better service is coming. It's funded. Give it time!

Yeesh!

[miketoronto]

Justin
Off peak service on the GO network in 2020 is only proposed to be a train every hour, except on Lakeshore which will be 30 minutes.
That is not a very big improvment at for a city of 6 million.

Funny how Adelaide Australian has a suburban train every 15 min during the day with a metro region of only 1 million.

[alexjon]

Because it's not Toronto, obviously.

[Doady]

Toronto has always been more dependent on local transit than regional transit, which is why the local transit system is so highly developed while the commuter rail system is so underdeveloped. But still, GO Transit seems to be moving forward very well. Actually, it is the future of the TTC that I am worried about...

[Justin10000]

Justin
Off peak service on the GO network in 2020 is only proposed to be a train every hour, except on Lakeshore which will be 30 minutes.
That is not a very big improvment at for a city of 6 million.

Funny how Adelaide Australian has a suburban train every 15 min during the day with a metro region of only 1 million.

Where are you getting hourly service from? Why would GO reduce the current off-peak service frequency?
The service is proposed to be 30 minutes on the Stouffville Line. The Lakeshore service will be 30 minutes, which is still pretty good regardless of your opinion.

You can make all the assumptions you want. You may not ride it, but many others will.

*EDIT*

Here is the plan, if anyone wants to read it.

Service Plan(66MB)

http://www.gotransit.com/PUBLIC/en/publications/GOTransitStrategicPlanGO2020_lowres.pdf

Condensed version:

http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/go2020plansummary.pdf

[SlickFranky]

Good stuff. Love the increases across the board, escpecially in off-peak. Go's done well serving 9-5 commuters but these increases should make overall regional travel a lot easier and quicker.

BTW, I had no idea Go's cost recovery was so high. :cheers:

[arbeiter]

Threads like this make me thrilled that Canada isn't 100% perfect like I thought, only 90%. 7% is the PC party of Alberta and 3% is mikescarborough.

[MolsonExport]

I only read the first post, and it strikes me as an absurd generalization.

http://bp3.blogger.com/_YHPVggXMiOU/SFKE-WTmZrI/AAAAAAAAAhs/aUO_nWg0E3o/s400/ChickenLittle_300x298.jpg
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