[MalcolmTucker]

Oh oh, I think it's time Gillian Steward went to see her doctor as I think she may have something like dementia. For those who don't know her, she is a former editor of the Herald who now freelances for papers that like to showcase the foibles of Calgary/Alberta. According to her, the only reason Nenshi won was because of all you 20 somethings since all us "old-timers" appear to love the same-old, same-old. The best part of her article is that "Coral Springs" appears to be a "tough Calgary neighbourhood".

Steward: Young voters elected new Calgary mayor (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/880953--steward-young-voters-elected-new-calgary-mayor)

Personaly this municipal election has made me more pissed with much of the media (and I didn't think that even possible??). Why can't Calgary vote for someone with good policy ideas and leave it at that?!?!

If you read the article, it is pretty accurate. Without the young, engaged at the beginning, you can't have the choice amongst three at the end. That the choice worked out in the end had nothing to do with policy, but all to do with hard work, superior voter-id and gotv. here is a link that works (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/880953--steward-young-voters-elected-new-calgary-mayor)for the story

[Bassic Lab]

Oh oh, I think it's time Gillian Steward went to see her doctor as I think she may have something like dementia. For those who don't know her, she is a former editor of the Herald who now freelances for papers that like to showcase the foibles of Calgary/Alberta. According to her, the only reason Nenshi won was because of all you 20 somethings since all us "old-timers" appear to love the same-old, same-old. The best part of her article is that "Coral Springs" appears to be a "tough Calgary neighbourhood".

Steward: Young voters elected new Calgary mayor (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/880953--steward-young-voters-elected-new-calgary-mayor)

Personaly this municipal election has made me more pissed with much of the media (and I didn't think that even possible??). Why can't Calgary vote for someone with good policy ideas and leave it at that?!?!

The conservative elite that governs the city and province? Wow... So did she just kind of forget every mayor we have had most of our lives?

[freeweed]

Why can't Calgary vote for someone with good policy ideas and leave it at that?!?!

Because her preferred candidate did not win.

[Bigtime]

As I was walking home from city hall an older lady (late 40's or 50's) asked me where I was coming from. I told her I was leaving the swearing-in ceremony, at which point she decided to tell me that it was all ceremonial and the NWO would take over things from here as usual.

Apparently the NWO is very ingrained in Calgary due to the oil companies. I was too tired but I totally should have asked her if it was NWO Black & White or Red & Black, la razza! ;)

[freeweed]

For the most part, Toronto has had good government under Miller however Miller was seen as governing too much for select special interest groups (E.g. unions, artists, DT developers, “black turtle-neck wearing, latte sipping elites, etc) and not enough for “joe six pack” taxpayer

If there's anything my years have taught me about people, it's that EVERYONE is a "special interest group". It's just that every OTHER "special interest group" is in the wrong, naturally. Joe sixpack becomes a special interest group as soon as you find out what he cares about.

We're all a tribe of one when you dig deep enough.

Note: this also correlates with my beliefs towards the nonsense phrase "silent majority".

[shreddog]

If you read the article, it is pretty accurate. Without the young, engaged at the beginning, you can't have the choice amongst three at the end. That the choice worked out in the end had nothing to do with policy, but all to do with hard work, superior voter-id and gotv. here is a link that works (http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/880953--steward-young-voters-elected-new-calgary-mayor)for the story
I'm sorry, but I humbly disagree. The participation of youth (still heresay really since without numbers there is no real proof - though personally I do believe that the voter levels in the sub-30 crowd were higher this election) did not foster choice. I was involved in the Nenshi compaign quite early and while there were many "youthful" events, there were just as many - early on - that looked like a prep-H fan club meeting. He was successful because he offered policies that appealed to a large segment of the population. While the methods used to energize the voting public were important, if in the end the policies were empty or too shallow, the votes would have either gone to another or stayed at home. Anecdote alert!! Of all the over 40 crowd that I personally introduced to Nenshi and his policies, most (all??) voted for him because of said policies, including some voters who weren't even aware he existed previously.

This will prove to be a contested debate no doubt for many poli-sci wonks, but in the end I believe that even if you manage to bring out the entire population, if what you're selling is just vapourware, the bodies won't mean bunk.

PS. I fixed the link - thanks!:tup:

[shreddog]

If there's anything my years have taught me about people, it's that EVERYONE is a "special interest group". It's just that every OTHER "special interest group" is in the wrong, naturally. Joe sixpack becomes a special interest group as soon as you find out what he cares about.

We're all a tribe of one when you dig deep enough.

Note: this also correlates with my beliefs towards the nonsense phrase "silent majority".Yes, everyone is a SIG - the point is not to overtly isolate any such that your opponent can use it to their advantage - my view on this is to make everyone equally gruntled - not too happy nor too mad.

Anyway, I still thought it interesting how "lame" the municipal election was in TO - very much a race to the lowest common denominator (dollars) and who could best protect them.

No doubt the context is very relevant (the garbage strike didn't help either) but "urban evolution" got painted as an expensive luxury under Ford (regardless of truth or not) and has been pushed back as far of the "public" is concerned. Now if Ford can deliver on any of his subway claims, he'll be viewed as second coming.

Funny how the results in Calgary make me wish we had the American model of the super-mayor whereas Ford's win makes me happy with our super-councillor model for the mayor.

All I can say is to hell with those Chinesse and their damn proverbs - May you live in interesting times!

[Wooster]

Very interesting and encouraging that 5 of the 6 newcomers to council have Master's degrees.

http://communities.canada.com/calgaryherald/blogs/hallmonitor/archive/2010/10/25/master-council.aspx

[Witty Nickname]

Did anyone get pics of the ceremony?

[mersar]

Did anyone get pics of the ceremony?

Nope, where Bigtime, Rusty and myself were watching from the Atrium you couldn't see much of the later part as we were at the very back of the crowd, the actual swearing in was done in council chambers and getting in there was by invite only so we watched it on one of the TV's they setup in the atrium..

That said, Global has the full webcast up on their web site (http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/video/index.html?releasePID=4A1mPTJGCHa41yuR8Pjou8ncDJTs0DP2) if you wanted to see it.

[Ramsayfarian]

Naheed on Stroumboulopoulos

http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/videos.html?ID=1625373693

[YYCguys]

Naheed on Stroumboulopoulos

http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/videos.html?ID=1625373693

Wow! There was an invite by CNN and he was also on CBC's Mansbridge One on One. What is the country's fascination with him? I don't think Bronco got this level of exposure when he became Mayor!

[Rusty van Reddick]

What is the country's fascination with him? I don't think Bronco got this level of exposure when he became Mayor!

Is this a rhetorical question? There are tons of reasons to be fascinated with him. He's fascinating.

[YYCguys]

Oh I fully agree Rusty, he is indeed a very fascinating individual. I live in Airdrie but was very interested in the Calgary race and especially in NN. I was just wondering how he managed to gain not only cross Canada, but also American, notoriety. I don't remember any other Mayor getting that kind of publicity.

[MichaelS]

A key theme to this election was making sure new growth pays for itself. I think a lot of this was spurred by the Financing Municipal Infrastructure report that went to council on July 19th. I don't know how to link to the report, but if you go to here: http://publicaccess.calgary.ca/lldm01/livelink.exe?func=ccpa.recentagenda and search for FCS2010-20 it should come up.

In the report it proposes several new methods of raising funds to pay for infrastructure. What are some of your guys ideas on this? Should we just jack up acreage assessments and have developers (who will pass it on to new home buyers) cover the big difference? Should we look to new sources of revenue, potentially requiring changes to the MGA? I am curious to hear some of your thoughts on this subject.

[freeweed]

Oh I fully agree Rusty, he is indeed a very fascinating individual. I live in Airdrie but was very interested in the Calgary race and especially in NN. I was just wondering how he managed to gain not only cross Canada, but also American, notoriety. I don't remember any other Mayor getting that kind of publicity.

Seriously? I don't want to come off in attack mode here, so bear with me, but... have you even *read* any of these articles?

He's:

1) the first muslim mayor of any major city in North America

2) at a time when muslims face more persecution and discrimination than at any other time in modern history

2a) look up that whole "9/11" thing in case you're forgetting

3) in "ULTRA CONSERVATIVE CALGARY" - or so Global News put it tonight

4) not 2 years after Barack Obama did a similar thing, on a larger scale, in the US, campaigning as a populist with a mandate of "positive change"

Nenshi, regardless of whether he ends up being a good mayor or not, will be the most discussed mayor in Calgary's history for a long time to come. He's way bigger news than Ralph Klein, Mel Lastman, and um, who the heck else can anyone remember as a Canadian mayor from a city they don't live in?

Nenshi is famous (world famous, by some definitions) because of who he is. He's very talked about in Canada because of that, plus how he won. Underdog stories are always good media fodder. Let's face it, he came out of nowhere (for most people) and was barely polling 10% a week before the election!

Deserved or not, he's going to get tons of attention right now. He's the first in many ways, he did it differently than most, and the combination just screams "media darling". I said it a few weeks before the election, but his entire campaign had me saying "Obama" over and over again. The media attention since his win just cemented the idea in my head. No, he's not getting the Peace Prize anytime soon, but he's Obama in microcosm.

Plus, he's just an all-around congenial, non-stuffy politician. When was the last time any city had a mayor like this? :D

[mooky]

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+alderman+Gord+Lowe+remain+council+budget+boss/3728638/story.html

I'm glad Gian-Carlo Carra is on the land-use and planning committee. That's a plus in my books.

[srperrycgy]

I'm glad Gian-Carlo Carra is on the land-use and planning committee. That's a plus in my books.

Of course, that positive is tempered by the fact that Andre Chabot is now the chair of the same committee. :rolleyes:

[Riise]

A key theme to this election was making sure new growth pays for itself. I think a lot of this was spurred by the Financing Municipal Infrastructure report that went to council on July 19th. I don't know how to link to the report, but if you go to here: http://publicaccess.calgary.ca/lldm01/livelink.exe?func=ccpa.recentagenda and search for FCS2010-20 it should come up.

[...]

I am curious to hear some of your thoughts on this subject.

There is actually a thread about Developer Contributions (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=185483). I've also uploaded easily accessible copies of the FMI Summary and Report, both of which can be found in the other thread.



http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+alderman+Gord+Lowe+remain+council+budget+boss/3728638/story.html

I'm glad Gian-Carlo Carra is on the land-use and planning committee. That's a plus in my books.

Brilliant!

[MichaelS]

There is actually a thread about Developer Contributions (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=185483). I've also uploaded easily accessible copies of the FMI Summary and Report, both of which can be found in the other thread.


Thanks for the link. Don't know how I missed that thread.

[mooky]

Can someone confirm, the mayor is not involved in the chairmanships or even who's on the committees. I understand the aldermen themselves make those appointments and the mayor has no say.... am I misinformed?

[mersar]

From my understanding you're pretty much correct. The aldermen decide amongst themselves who wants to be on each committee and then each committee elects a chair and vice chair from within their ranks. The mayors only involvement is in the procedural part of actually establishing the membership of each committee but not deciding who the members are.

[kw5150]

Seriously? I don't want to come off in attack mode here, so bear with me, but... have you even *read* any of these articles?

He's:

1) the first muslim mayor of any major city in North America

2) at a time when muslims face more persecution and discrimination than at any other time in modern history

2a) look up that whole "9/11" thing in case you're forgetting

3) in "ULTRA CONSERVATIVE CALGARY" - or so Global News put it tonight

4) not 2 years after Barack Obama did a similar thing, on a larger scale, in the US, campaigning as a populist with a mandate of "positive change"

Nenshi, regardless of whether he ends up being a good mayor or not, will be the most discussed mayor in Calgary's history for a long time to come. He's way bigger news than Ralph Klein, Mel Lastman, and um, who the heck else can anyone remember as a Canadian mayor from a city they don't live in?

Nenshi is famous (world famous, by some definitions) because of who he is. He's very talked about in Canada because of that, plus how he won. Underdog stories are always good media fodder. Let's face it, he came out of nowhere (for most people) and was barely polling 10% a week before the election!

Deserved or not, he's going to get tons of attention right now. He's the first in many ways, he did it differently than most, and the combination just screams "media darling". I said it a few weeks before the election, but his entire campaign had me saying "Obama" over and over again. The media attention since his win just cemented the idea in my head. No, he's not getting the Peace Prize anytime soon, but he's Obama in microcosm.

Plus, he's just an all-around congenial, non-stuffy politician. When was the last time any city had a mayor like this? :D

And he is gay!

[mooky]

And he is gay!

You're probably being tongue in cheek, but so no one furthers a rumor (that doesn't matter anyway), he tweeted he's not:

Nenshi tweet in response to another users tweet (http://twitter.com/nenshi/status/28663819584)

[gantenbein]

You're probably being tongue in cheek, but so no one furthers a rumor (that doesn't matter anyway), he tweeted he's not:

Nenshi tweet in response to another users tweet (http://twitter.com/nenshi/status/28663819584)

At his concert at Knox Monday night, Owen Pallett said to the crowd "We've heard about your gay Muslim mayor!".

I know most people who make reference to this rumour are doing so from a position of tolerance and even pride, but I find speculation about something that is (or should be) irrelevant even more troubling than all the focus the media (mostly outside of Calgary) are placing on his religion and skin colour.

[freeweed]

I know most people who make reference to this rumour are doing so from a position of tolerance and even pride, but I find speculation about something that is (or should be) irrelevant even more troubling than all the focus the media (mostly outside of Calgary) are placing on his religion and skin colour.

Gotta agree. There's just a bit too much focus on these parts of the man.

That being said, it's amazing how many people have automatically assumed he's gay, because in the words of several people I know: "He's 38 and not married? Yeah, he's gay all right". And generally with a negative tone towards both aspects.

Sometimes it's like we still live in the 1950s.

[Ramsayfarian]

The Dinger on Day 1.

The mayor, at his 17th hour on the job, says he is up for a good revolution.

Naheed Nenshi says he wants a thorough going-over of council’s pay and perks early in the new year and he wants Calgarians to have a say on the matter.

He talks about wanting to get next year’s tax hike into the neighbourhood of 4%, without actually naming the number.

He waxes poetic about how much he has in common with Toronto’s mayor-elect, Rob Ford, the pull-no-punches, pinch-the-pennies character who rides to victory Monday vowing to stop Hogtown’s city hall gravy train.

He is “extremely confident” the council will get along and change plenty.

Alas, when you look at the council, only one seatwarmer gets the boot, the other usual suspects win another three years on the taxpayer payroll and the majority of newbies are NOT candidates who pledged to shake up the big blue playpen.

So it doesn’t surprise, on a day where everyone is supposed to love everyone, when Ald. Gord Lowe, Bronco With A Beard, is elected by a committee of aldermen as the city’s budget boss — again.

Ald. Diane Colley-Urquhart opposes Lowe but loses.

Though the vote is secret and behind closed doors it is reported to be a 4-3 split with Dale Hodges, Brian Pincott, Lowe and rookie Ald. Richard Pootmans opting for the same-old, same-old.

But Nenshi still sounds the right syllables Tuesday.

He wants a group, members still to be determined, to “examine from soups to nuts how we think about the pay and perks all council members including myself receive and to have that discussion in a very open way.”

“It’s time for a refresh, it’s time for the public to have their point of view on this again.”

Nenshi says when it comes to staffing his own office he suspects he “will be able to lead by example.”

He talks about possibly keeping his beat-up Corolla over a swanky Mayormobile.

“I don’t know,” says Nenshi, to the question of whether he’ll opt for his old car.

“I kind of like my Corolla. We’ll see how we can make this work.”

The mayor of 17 hours wants less business done behind closed doors, both council biz and the to-and-fro of the city’s many boards and commissions.

“We are living in a more open world,” he says.

Nenshi adds when it comes to a tax hike around 4%, what the folks downtown call their inflation rate, “moving in that direction is something that makes a lot of sense to me.”

Please note the city inflation rate is higher than the Calgary inflation rate of less than 1% in part because wages have gone up at the city during this recession while, at many businesses, they have not.

Nenshi even phones mayor-elect Ford Tuesday. Nenshi says he shares much with the T.O. big man.

“I’m sure mayor-elect Ford is going to do a fantastic job,” predicts the mayor of this city.

“He and I share a lot of common interests in reform of city council, reform of city hall, reform of bureaucracy and removal of red tape.”

With those words, Nenshi disappoints all those terribly trendy Torontonians who can’t stand Ford and have been wishing Nenshi would be their pied piper of progressivism.

It is 17 hours into a three-year term.

Some things will be hard to change. Pincott still tells us how auditing works. Little Johnny Mar is now a big-time committee chairman and on the police commission another term.

Big Red says she has no problem with Lowe as finance committee kahuna, her tongue firmly planted in her cheek. As a registered nurse she also knows how to control her gag reflex.

Naturally, the Calgary Police Commission shamelessly rolls out its survey finding the cops need even more money, just before budget time. You don’t say.

And the playpen still makes CIA headquarters look like the Welcome Wagon.

Nenshi’s office is asked for a clarification of one of the mayor’s answers.

The individual from his office who gave this scribbler their number doesn’t bother to get back until 8 p.m.

They say it’s because this columnist should not have phoned the number they gave but should have phoned a go-between line who would have contacted them to contact your humble scribe.

It’s all in some press release.

Ah,0 yes. This purple revolution thing is not going to be easy.

rick.bell@sunmedia.ca

[Danma]

I think it's unreasonable to expect Nenshi to start trash talking TO's mayor-elect a couple days into his new digs.

I agree that there are similarities in that they are both interested in reducing waste and increasing the efficiency of their respective cities. That's about it, though... in most other respects Rob Ford sounds like he's from the 80s!

[jeffwhit]

The Toronto-based media has been doing the jump-off-a-bridge routine for 10 days now, no need for Nenshi to rub it in.

[Ramsayfarian]

The Toronto-based media has been doing the jump-off-a-bridge routine for 10 days now, no need for Nenshi to rub it in.

Plus Nenshi's a lot classier than that.

[jeffwhit]

The Toronto-based media has been doing the jump-off-a-bridge routine for 10 days now, no need for Nenshi to rub it in.

case in point:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/183710365.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1288211749&Signature=X%2BMWfSyRwwtGi2WmSWJHo8stl%2FE%3D

Although, they hardly needed to bring their espresso to Calgary.

[Ramsayfarian]

There goes the neighbourhood.

[Bigtime]

Although, they hardly needed to bring their espresso to Calgary.

:haha: Good thing they brought croissants, I heard we may have a winter shortage!

[Radley77]

Wow, just read the Rob Ford transcript of the "As It Happens", CBC interview:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1625780480

Carol Off: Mr. Ford, congratulations...

Rob Ford: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Carol Off: People are saying it's a, calling it a stunning win. What do you think that—

Rob Ford: Things are, things are going really well.

Carol Off: What drew so much—

Rob Ford, yelling: Coach, half your juniors aren't even here, eh? Alright. Alright.

Carol Off: Hello, Mr. Ford, are you there?

Rob Ford: Yeah, yeah, I'm here, yeah.

Carol Off: Oh, you're at some event or...?

Rob Ford: I'm a coach. I'm a football coach.

Carol Off: Okay, so you're at football practice, then.

Rob Ford: Yes.

Carol Off: Alright well, okay, we'll continue then. What is it that you think drew so much support to your campaign?

Rob Ford: Yeah, it's just people are sick and tired of the wasteful spending. People are sick and tired of wasteful spending, that's the bottom line, that's what it comes down.

Carol Off: Well there—

Rob Ford: You know, I'm the only one that can go down there [Inaudible, then, yelling:] Just go get changed! Go! Out! And get changed! Don't worry about the water right now. [Pause.] Sorry.

Carol Off: Uh-huh—

Rob Ford: So, um, yeah, no, people are just fed up with, uh, with, you know, uh, politicians squandering, uh, hard-earned tax dollars, and they know that I'm gonna get rid of the sixty-dollar car registration tax and the land transfer tax.

Carol Off: Well you know that your campaign has been compared to Mike Harris's Common Sense Revolution, to the Tea Party movement, do you see those comparisons?

Rob Ford: I don't see [inaudible] comparisons [inaudible] what, I don't care [laughs]. I just, I just know, know the taxpayers, uh, want, uh, you know, the gravy train to come to an end, and that, uh, Rob Ford's the guy to do it, and uh [inaudible]—

Carol Off: Do you think there are similarities?

Rob Ford: And, and, I don't, I don't see there's any similarities, I just know that, uh, like I said, uh, I'm, you know, gonna put an end to the wasteful spending, and, uh...you know, stop the gravy train—sorry, I'm being distracted [inaudible] so...

Carol Off: So—

Rob Ford: So, that's pretty well it.

Carol Off: Mr. Ford, do you think that though there's not people that who might think that their taxes are too high, or that too much is being spent on things? There seems to be a division in this city. People, in the, ah, you've seen it in even your voting: people who live in the more of the core of the city have different priorities than people in the suburbs. So when you stop the gravy train, some people want to see more public transportation, more bike lanes...

Rob Ford: Right...

Carol Off: ...others want to see better routes out into the suburbs. how are you going to reconcile that?

Rob Ford: Well the first, well the first and foremost concern with people—is money. That's the first and foremost concern. So, I'm gonna make sure our finances, um, you know, are well taken care of, and then we can deal with all the other issues, but uh, money's the first and foremost concern, and, uh, that's what my uh, what I'm gonna concentrate on.

Carol Off: Well sure, that's everyone's concern, but we're not sure what it is that you're going to save money on. Are you going to reduce public transportation?

Rob Ford, interrupting: Well I just told you that I'm gonna get rid of the sixty-dollar car registration tax and land transfer tax, so, um, maybe I'm not making myself clear, but I'm gonna get rid of the sixty-dollar car registration tax and land transfer tax. And we're gonna stop the wasteful spending, and not have $12,000 retirement parties, and you know, all the other nonsense that's been going on for seven years.

Carol Off: Um—

Rob Ford, interrupting: Anyways, I gotta let you go here. And, uh...

Carol Off: Well, can I ask you about public transportation before you go?

Rob Ford: Pardon me? I can't talk to you right now—I'm really, I'm on a really tight schedule, so I hate to be rude, but I gotta let you go, and we can chat another time. Really nice talking to you, all the best, buh-bye.


Transcript from Torontoist: http://torontoist.com/2010/10/an_attempted_transcript_of_rob_fords_distracted_as_it_happens_interview.php

I am glad that Nenshi actively seeks to reduce hyperpartisanship. Calgary should work for everyone.

[srperrycgy]

:haha: Good thing they brought croissants, I heard we may have a winter shortage!

Phew! My croissant cupboard is almost bare! Thanks Toronto refugees! :cool:

[YYCguys]

That Rob Ford....what a character!!!! Hahaha! Should be an interesting ride for Torontonians!

[Ferreth]

Wow, just read the Rob Ford transcript of the "As It Happens", CBC interview:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1625780480



Wow, just Wow! What a contrast to Nenshi. Ford comes off as such a douchebag, and I don't use this term often. Nenshi has already done much to improve the image of Calgary through his media interviews. It seems that Ford is busy making Toronto look like the new armpit of Canada.

[YYCguys]

You mean as opposed to Hamilton? Hehehe!

[Ramsayfarian]

Wow, just Wow! What a contrast to Nenshi. Ford comes off as such a douchebag, and I don't use this term often. Nenshi has already done much to improve the image of Calgary through his media interviews. It seems that Ford is busy making Toronto look like the new armpit of Canada.

Ford is a fat fuck and he's not nearly as smart as Nenshi, but I'm going to give him a buy on this interview.

z1C2TNUhS2w

[freeweed]

I don't normally find much on Youtube all that funny, but damn. :jester:

I wish whoever put that together would make a "gravy train" joke. The guy looks like he certainly likes his gravy.

[mooky]

Looks like he's stopped a gravy train or two in his time.

There's your gravy train joke of the night! :D

[Reesonov]

Very interesting and encouraging that 5 of the 6 newcomers to council have Master's degrees.

http://communities.canada.com/calgaryherald/blogs/hallmonitor/archive/2010/10/25/master-council.aspx

Well, to be fair, two of them are MBAs... :rolleyes:

[srperrycgy]

The electoral data by individual poll has been released: http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/cityclerks/election/2010/2010_results_by_voting_station.pdf

With this data, I was able to finish the maps that I started to do on election night:

How the Big 3 Fared by Individual Poll (http://bit.ly/diQYCW)

[Bassic Lab]

The electoral data by individual poll has been released: http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/cityclerks/election/2010/2010_results_by_voting_station.pdf

With this data, I was able to finish the maps that I started to do on election night:

How the Big 3 Fared by Individual Poll (http://bit.ly/diQYCW)

Not very many big surprises but it is still interesting. It looks like the biggest factors towards a Nenshi poll were proximity towards the inner city and wealth.

Looking at the aldermanic races, I am actually kind of shocked by how close Mount Royal was between Mar and Pashak. Either Pashak had an insanely successful GOTV drive in Lower Mount Royal or else Upper Mount Royal is far less monolithic than I would have assumed. The results of the other polls, with Pashak taking Bankview, Mission/East Beltline, and doing decently near MRU, are less surprising.

[MalcolmTucker]

The electoral data by individual poll has been released: http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/cityclerks/election/2010/2010_results_by_voting_station.pdf

With this data, I was able to finish the maps that I started to do on election night:

How the Big 3 Fared by Individual Poll (http://bit.ly/diQYCW)

What software did you use to integrate the data, I can't imagine it was manual!

[Riise]

The electoral data by individual poll has been released: http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/cityclerks/election/2010/2010_results_by_voting_station.pdf

With this data, I was able to finish the maps that I started to do on election night:

How the Big 3 Fared by Individual Poll (http://bit.ly/diQYCW)

Yeah, get in there! My old polling station in Rundle voted for Nenshi, they did me proud!

[Bigtime]

Our polling station (and Barb Higgins) 802 was all Nenshi baby!

Mrs. Bigtime made a comment the other day about how odd it is that we have never seen Higgins around, since apparently she lives in our polling station area.

[mooky]

Looks like I win! Ward 9 was the only ward to have polling station wins for all three candidates from Srperry's maps.

At least my polling station 902 went Nenshi!

[jeffwhit]

The electoral data by individual poll has been released: http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/cityclerks/election/2010/2010_results_by_voting_station.pdf

With this data, I was able to finish the maps that I started to do on election night:

How the Big 3 Fared by Individual Poll (http://bit.ly/diQYCW)

your google maps rule,

looks like I didn't need to vote afterall ;)


Nenshi 1458
Higgins 342
McIver 273

that's my polling station, which is basically just Sunnyside.

[jeffwhit]

I find it strange maybe that Ward 1 went reallly strongly for Nenshi, but Chris Harper didn't do so well...

Well, hopefully he runs again in 2013

[MalcolmTucker]

I find it strange maybe that Ward 1 went reallly strongly for Nenshi, but Chris Harper didn't do so well...

Well, hopefully he runs again in 2013

It actually makes a lot of sense, if you look at it apart from the ideological perspective. Highest voter turnout in recent memory means a lot of marginal voters that didn't vote for Jennifer Banks or Hodges last time turned out. Harper held Banks' number and the split on new voters was just too hard towards the incumbent Alderman.

I rising tide does not lift all boats in municipal politics.

[DizzyEdge]

The electoral data by individual poll has been released: http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/cityclerks/election/2010/2010_results_by_voting_station.pdf

With this data, I was able to finish the maps that I started to do on election night:

How the Big 3 Fared by Individual Poll (http://bit.ly/diQYCW)

Although I voted at City Hall I see where I would normally vote had Nenshi beating Higgins and McIver combined. (Ward 7)

[srperrycgy]

What software did you use to integrate the data, I can't imagine it was manual!

If the City had provided a fricking Excel spreadsheet instead of a PDF, it would have been easier. I entered the top 3 on to a Notepad sheet and then copy and pasted the info to each poll. So, yes it was manual.

Update: Got a mention of the maps on Jason Markusoff's blog in the Herald. Link (http://communities.canada.com/calgaryherald/blogs/hallmonitor/archive/2010/10/28/station-to-station-detailed-election-results-analysed-wards-1-to-7.aspx)

[mooky]

For anyone interested in the Toronto breakdown of Ford Vs Smitherman:

http://torontoist.com/2010/10/which_wards_voted_for_who_for_mayor.php

[srperrycgy]

The map:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1373/5124917804_5b262ed0c7_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lrtincalgary/5124917804/)
MayoralResults (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lrtincalgary/5124917804/) by srp775 (http://www.flickr.com/people/lrtincalgary/), on Flickr

Nenshi: Purple
Higgins: Light Blue
McIvor: Red

Google is being bitchy, so merging the maps into one Google Map isn't working right now.

[mersar]

Cool. That McIver win in the NW was by 8 votes, so pretty insignificant.

[Witty Nickname]

Nice creation, thanks for sharing.

[Ramsayfarian]

I second Witty's comment. Amazing work

[Dado]

Someone care to explain/speculate why the support was so geographically concentrated?

It's not even like Toronto where there were clear suburban-urban splits.

Is McIvor from the Southeast? And why is Calgary East so inclined to vote for a former CTV anchor? Also, isn't Nenshi from the Northeast? If so, they didn't exactly vote for him in overwhelming numbers there.

[Bigtime]

Just word of mouth but I had heard that the Punjabi community was very pro-Higgins. So that could account for the east going to her.

[mersar]

Someone care to explain/speculate why the support was so geographically concentrated?

It's not even like Toronto where there were clear suburban-urban splits.

Is McIvor from the Southeast? And why is Calgary East so inclined to vote for a former CTV anchor? Also, isn't Nenshi from the Northeast? If so, they didn't exactly vote for him in overwhelming numbers there.

McIver was the alderman for the SE for quite a while, so to them he was a well known individual.

[freeweed]

Someone care to explain/speculate why the support was so geographically concentrated?

It's not even like Toronto where there were clear suburban-urban splits.

Is McIvor from the Southeast? And why is Calgary East so inclined to vote for a former CTV anchor? Also, isn't Nenshi from the Northeast? If so, they didn't exactly vote for him in overwhelming numbers there.

Multiple things.

1. Nenshi's support base was not "he's one of us". His support came from his platform. So you don't really see him leading based on area or race or anything similar.

2. McIver was heavily favoured in the SE, which is where he represented as Alderman and has fought for everything to happen during his career.

3. Higgins was shown in polls to be most attractive to folks with a high school degree or less. The east part of Calgary that you're seeing there has some of the lowest-income working class neighbourhoods in Calgary.

4. Sum it all up, and you'll notice that McIver and Higgins really appealed to very select (but large) niches. Nenshi appealed to EVERYONE, which is why his win is so awesome.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Just word of mouth but I had heard that the Punjabi community was very pro-Higgins. So that could account for the east going to her.

Yep. We were just talking about this in the meetup- Kang won East Calgary MLA race because of support from Sikhs. Sherrif had the support of Muslims. They won't support one another's candidates.

[freeweed]

Kang won East Calgary MLA race

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodoss.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodoss.

:haha: If you can think of a better way to exchange long protein strands, I'd love to hear it.

[Bigtime]

We must more forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling towards freedom!

[RicoLance21]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA I think the entire nation is envying us..

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Forget+Montreal+will+never+have+mayor+like+Calgary/3750164/story.html

[Wooster]

We must more forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling towards freedom!

Abortions for all!

booo!!

Abortions for none!!

booo!!

Um, abortions for some, miniature american flags for others!

Yay!!!

[CorporateWhore]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA I think the entire nation is envying us..

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Forget+Montreal+will+never+have+mayor+like+Calgary/3750164/story.html

Man, that sounds pretty depressing. Then again, that's pretty much exactly the reason why it's pretty impossible to get anyone elected in the US who isn't part of the system, and indebted to some special interest.

[freeweed]

Political parties more and more seem to be the single biggest problem in our modern democratic systems. At all levels. Plus, they just make voters stupid - remember how many people voted Republican in the US in 2004 because they thought Republicans supported "small government"? :koko:

Not sure I've seen a large federalist system without parties though, so it's possible the alternative could be worse. I cannot for the life of me imagine the purpose of parties in municipal politics, regardless.

[Riise]

Not sure I've seen a large federalist system without parties though, so it's possible the alternative could be worse. I cannot for the life of me imagine the purpose of parties in municipal politics, regardless.

What about having more parties? I have heard that in some countries there are a wide range of parties and coalition governments are actually the norm. It could obviously bring additional problems but it does have its benefits.

[MalcolmTucker]

Political parties more and more seem to be the single biggest problem in our modern democratic systems. At all levels. Plus, they just make voters stupid - remember how many people voted Republican in the US in 2004 because they thought Republicans supported "small government"? :koko:

Not sure I've seen a large federalist system without parties though, so it's possible the alternative could be worse. I cannot for the life of me imagine the purpose of parties in municipal politics, regardless.

I think a lot of people voted for Bush in 2004 because Kerry had a very awful foreign policy that while Bush's wasn't the greatest, it would have been a lot worse otherwise. (or at least that was a somewhat good outcome of the election).

Technically Libya's system doesn't have political parties - if it didn't result in effective dictatorship it would be seen as the most democratic in the world. Block councils elect a representative to a neighborhood council, who elect to a parish council and so on all the way to the top.

Think about it this way, political parties help sort ideological positions into coherent choices and let voters choose a program instead of needing ultimate trust in an individual. A Mayor dies, a new one can be found. If we had a party less system and our titular head of state/government died, wtf happens?

If our city had more politicians like in Vancouver where you have a parallel park board for example, at some point it makes sense to be able to raise voter turnout by making decisions for people easier by creating parties. It also encourages things like solidarity in a electoral manifesto - voters if they returned a majority of 'city builders' for example, could count on a certain politics being done. Right now, every ward has to accomplish this 'sort' on its own. Political parties at the city level would also reduce the benefit of incumbency. Voters who wanted a change could be confident their new alderman would not be a dud if they switched parties for example. Right now a challenger has to build name recognition, inform voters and much more. Look at Chris Harper for the difficulty of doing that!

Certainly we have seen that it is unlikely Calgary would end up with a dominant 'conservative' municipal political party as there are enough far right wingers that can't accept normal things 'red tories' are perfectly happy with in government regulation and intervention. I'd bet we would end up with 3 parties, maybe four - split along the lines that we saw in the last election with Higgins, Nenshi, McIver, and possibly Hawkesworth (only the last because the NDP likes having its own program and as we see prefer ideological purity than working with centre-progressives)

[CorporateWhore]

Political parties more and more seem to be the single biggest problem in our modern democratic systems. At all levels. Plus, they just make voters stupid.

Pretty much. They are basically the unions of politics. And we all know how innovative and efficient unions tend to be in other parts of life.

[Bassic Lab]

I think a lot of people voted for Bush in 2004 because Kerry had a very awful foreign policy that while Bush's wasn't the greatest, it would have been a lot worse otherwise. (or at least that was a somewhat good outcome of the election).

Technically Libya's system doesn't have political parties - if it didn't result in effective dictatorship it would be seen as the most democratic in the world. Block councils elect a representative to a neighborhood council, who elect to a parish council and so on all the way to the top.

Think about it this way, political parties help sort ideological positions into coherent choices and let voters choose a program instead of needing ultimate trust in an individual. A Mayor dies, a new one can be found. If we had a party less system and our titular head of state/government died, wtf happens?

If our city had more politicians like in Vancouver where you have a parallel park board for example, at some point it makes sense to be able to raise voter turnout by making decisions for people easier by creating parties. It also encourages things like solidarity in a electoral manifesto - voters if they returned a majority of 'city builders' for example, could count on a certain politics being done. Right now, every ward has to accomplish this 'sort' on its own. Political parties at the city level would also reduce the benefit of incumbency. Voters who wanted a change could be confident their new alderman would not be a dud if they switched parties for example. Right now a challenger has to build name recognition, inform voters and much more. Look at Chris Harper for the difficulty of doing that!

Certainly we have seen that it is unlikely Calgary would end up with a dominant 'conservative' municipal political party as there are enough far right wingers that can't accept normal things 'red tories' are perfectly happy with in government regulation and intervention. I'd bet we would end up with 3 parties, maybe four - split along the lines that we saw in the last election with Higgins, Nenshi, McIver, and possibly Hawkesworth (only the last because the NDP likes having its own program and as we see prefer ideological purity than working with centre-progressives)

The last council would seem to disprove your final point. The known NDP council members worked effectively with the known Liberal council members to form the basis of Bronconnier's governing coalition. I would not be surprised if the same thing ends up unfolding under Nenshi. If it does not it would have more to do with McIver's absence keeping the right wing on council from coalescing into an effective opposition, allowing Nenshi to build a broader base of support, than the Dippers' refusal to work with centre-progressives.

[Bassic Lab]

Multiple things.

1. Nenshi's support base was not "he's one of us". His support came from his platform. So you don't really see him leading based on area or race or anything similar.



That is not really fair. Inner city dwellers, the wealthy, and the educated represent communities of interest just as much as McIver's working and middle class suburbanites or Higgins' lower and working class east siders. If anything Nenshi represented his community, a "one of us" if you will, better than his opponents. Being a highly educated man of ideas was central to his brand. McIver comes pretty close with his past, small business owner and butcher, but Higgins could not be more different from her support base.

[mooky]

Pretty much. They are basically the unions of politics. And we all know how innovative and efficient unions tend to be in other parts of life.

Unfair comparison, unions were and are still the biggest single power to give employees the ability to collectively bargain for a fair wage and working conditions. Without them we'd still be stuck in the 1800's and the employer would still have all the power and employees would still be crapped on. Don't generalize because of a few bad instances of union misbehavior, you can find misbehavior in any structured environment, including those corporate environments that are the antithesis of anything but union-shops ... it's all about balance.

In parts of the world there still are places where millions and millions have terrible working conditions because of no or limited ability to organize and to fairly deal with employers and by mocking unions as a whole, we do nothing to help their plight.

[MalcolmTucker]

The last council would seem to disprove your final point. The known NDP council members worked effectively with the known Liberal council members to form the basis of Bronconnier's governing coalition. I would not be surprised if the same thing ends up unfolding under Nenshi. If it does not it would have more to do with McIver's absence keeping the right wing on council from coalescing into an effective opposition, allowing Nenshi to build a broader base of support, than the Dippers' refusal to work with centre-progressives.

Elected officials are different than the people that would form the parties themselves, should parties ever come into the equation.

[CorporateWhore]

Unfair comparison, unions were and are still the biggest single power to give employees the ability to collectively bargain for a fair wage and working conditions. Without them we'd still be stuck in the 1800's and the employer would still have all the power and employees would still be crapped on. Don't generalize because of a few bad instances of union misbehavior, you can find misbehavior in any structured environment, including those corporate environments that are the antithesis of anything but union-shops ... it's all about balance.

In parts of the world there still are places where millions and millions have terrible working conditions because of no or limited ability to organize and to fairly deal with employers and by mocking unions as a whole, we do nothing to help their plight.

Unions definitely had their place at one time, and in some parts of the world can still do good to help the plight of the poor...but in most instances in the western world, have become giant soul-sucking parasites. They value seniority over personal performance and create an environment of laziness and excess. They are inefficient and hostile towards any change (never mind the bullying that goes on within their own membership). Good luck trying to run a city this way.

While your romanticized description of unions sounds lovely, most unions these days are just as greedy as the corporations that employ them. Look at the auto unions....their solution to their industry woes was to institute two-tiered wage structures...one for the old guys (ie the bosses in power) that keep their inflated salaries and benefits, and one for new members who have drastically reduced salaries/benefits, yet might have more experience/education than the guy working right next to them. So much for solidarity. Union bosses are as greedy as management, but just can't admit it.

The last thing municipal politics in Calgary needs to move towards is a union/party model.

[MalcolmTucker]

The city of calgary unions, at least some of them seem pretty good. They didn't go on strike against managed competition for recycling services, and barely a peep for the coming transition to one person trucks for garbage. Both those things would / will soon cause a huge strike in Toronto.

[gammell]

I suspect that because outsourcing government services would go over far better in Calgary than in Toronto the unions don't have nearly as strong a grip on their labour monopoly here. A garbage strike in Calgary without an airtight justification to the public would result in massive political pressure for firing the whole union and finding contractors.

[mooky]

Unions definitely had their place at one time, and in some parts of the world can still do good to help the plight of the poor...but in most instances in the western world, have become giant soul-sucking parasites. They value seniority over personal performance and create an environment of laziness and excess. They are inefficient and hostile towards any change (never mind the bullying that goes on within their own membership). Good luck trying to run a city this way.

While your romanticized description of unions sounds lovely, most unions these days are just as greedy as the corporations that employ them. Look at the auto unions....their solution to their industry woes was to institute two-tiered wage structures...one for the old guys (ie the bosses in power) that keep their inflated salaries and benefits, and one for new members who have drastically reduced salaries/benefits, yet might have more experience/education than the guy working right next to them. So much for solidarity. Union bosses are as greedy as management, but just can't admit it.

The last thing municipal politics in Calgary needs to move towards is a union/party model.

My only response is you're generalizing, see ad hominem.

[mooky]

I don't want to help participate in the race to the bottom, which is what happens when you demonize all unions. Yes yes, there are bad unions, I already stipulated that, but there has to be something to the fact that unions have been demonized and marginalized in the USA, their influence neutered, and all the while the gap between the middle working class and the corporate elite widens. Sure its not the only reason, but one could argue that international trade agreements were as much about opening markets to US products as a subtle attempt by US corporations to break unions influence on American manufacturing. Unions used to be as American as apple pie, now they're a damn commie plot.

[freeweed]

I don't want to help participate in the race to the bottom, which is what happens when you demonize all unions.

I'd place a goodly chunk of the blame squarely on unions. When people are making $30-40/hr to bolt cars together (ie: entirely unskilled labour) and they can't be replaced by perfectly qualified workers here who could and would do the job for much less - no wonder so many companies have just said "fuck it" and moved everything overseas.

Of course, not all unions are bad, but the bad ones are really, really bad. I've watched too many friends and family members lose far more in income (strike pay sucks) than they ever received from precious "collective bargaining".

[CorporateWhore]

Of course, not all unions are bad, but the bad ones are really, really bad. I've watched too many friends and family members lose far more in income (strike pay sucks) than they ever received from precious "collective bargaining".

One of my biggest beefs with unions is that an employee can almost never opt out of them and negotiate their own terms with an employer. If I want to work more hours a week, why can't I? If I'm willing to work for less in return for job-security, why can't I say no to being part of a union?

I tried to get a job at Superstore when I was a teen, and I was told I have to join the union or not be considered at all. Why would a teenager making minimum wage at a part-time job even need a union? At that level if they don't treat you well or you don't like what they pay you, you quit and get another mc-job. I don't need to waste a good chunk of my check for somebody to tell me that. The lack of flexibility with unions is what's killing them. They preach about only wanting an honest and fair living, but as soon as somebody out there tries to earn a fair and honest living outside of their rules, they turn to intimidation and fear-mongering.

[mooky]

I'd place a goodly chunk of the blame squarely on unions. When people are making $30-40/hr to bolt cars together (ie: entirely unskilled labour) and they can't be replaced by perfectly qualified workers here who could and would do the job for much less - no wonder so many companies have just said "fuck it" and moved everything overseas.

Of course, not all unions are bad, but the bad ones are really, really bad. I've watched too many friends and family members lose far more in income (strike pay sucks) than they ever received from precious "collective bargaining".

ad hominem again.

Governments set the rules, and business must abide by it. You don't think corporate lobbies to open up trade barriers, lowering of tariffs, etc, helped them move those manufacturing jobs overseas, without which corporations still would have to employ factory workers here. It is giving rise to the "fair trade, not free trade" movement/ideology to which I am a supporter.

As for unskilled work bolting together cars? I don't know about you, but I don't want my car being bolted together by a Walmart worker where cars fall apart and are a safety hazard to me and my family. Calling it unskilled work is a little disingenuous. If you define it as unskilled work because it isn't as hard today because of technology robots to help automobile workers assemble cars and they don't have to literally break their backs anymore, then how about the people at Boeing that assemble your airplanes? It's basically the same job description. Maybe the automobile industry could survive without unions, I know some manufactures don't use unions, but for that one, there are many industries in North America still treat workers poorly and could use to be unionized. But the downward pressure of making goods cheaper and cheaper is whats actually killing our north American lives at a glacial pace to the average eye - we just see $199.95 for a 62" LCD TV at Walmart and think that's the most awesome thing without thinking about the poor schmuck in Malaysia getting paid $2 a day to assemble it. Do some research of the 3rd party contract companies assembling Microsoft products (mice, webcams, etc) in China, under terrible conditions ... it was in the news several months back .... these are things we would not tolerate here and unions helped abolish, yet we close our eyes to it and happily buy that $15 mouse; societal hypocrisy.

Theirs a lot of factors at play, but to simply attack unions as a whole is entirely unfair. The middle class of North American was and is manufacturing, buttressed by the power of the union to give them the monetary ability to keep the economy going and growing, but with its decline, so has American, and Canada's edge as global engines and leaders. Heck, if you argue technology will replace it, even that we don't lead in any more as China and India are chomping at our heels in that regard.

I say all this because I just see it as short sighted to say unions are dead and have no need any more. I held that belief myself about 10 years ago when I worked for a union, but in doing a lot of reading and studying the subject in the years since, I have done a 180 and seen that unions are very much still needed, just they've been neutered by corporate media bias which affects public opinion, and international trade agreements that make it easy for employers to off shore jobs. And I will again stipulate *some* unions haven't done anything to help themselves either. </rant>

[mooky]

One of my biggest beefs with unions is that an employee can almost never opt out of them and negotiate their own terms with an employer. If I want to work more hours a week, why can't I? If I'm willing to work for less in return for job-security, why can't I say no to being part of a union?

I tried to get a job at Superstore when I was a teen, and I was told I have to join the union or not be considered at all. Why would a teenager making minimum wage at a part-time job even need a union? At that level if they don't treat you well or you don't like what they pay you, you quit and get another mc-job. I don't need to waste a good chunk of my check for somebody to tell me that. The lack of flexibility with unions is what's killing them. They preach about only wanting an honest and fair living, but as soon as somebody out there tries to earn a fair and honest living outside of their rules, they turn to intimidation and fear-mongering.

Again, an ad hominem.

To working more for less if you want, then, um, whats the point of a minimum wage even cause you could argue that same point against a federal/provincial minimum wage.


As for the need to unionize a mc-job ... well, creating the exception starts a precedent to break the union. How bout Unpaid overtime forced upon Walmart workers with the implied corporate policy that if they can't do it, then Walmart will find someone else who will. It's about balance, I'm not giving unions a cart-blanch, but the anti-union sentiment among my generation (I'm 33) is amazingly short-sited and biased.

Yes, unions need to be more flexible, but corporations still need to be policed, and unfortunately unless you want even more government laws, which I cannot see happening, unions are still a necessary evil until you break/lessen the massive influence of corporate lobbyists on policy. The influence unions exert on policy is in no way equal to the influence corporations exert; the two are not equal and to try to say unions have as much influence on policy or the economy is completely a false perception created on purpose to obfuscate the issue.

[CorporateWhore]

See the thing is that you see unions as the good guy and the corporations as the bad guy. To me they are just different ends of the same shitty stick....neither of them cares about the little guy. Unions start out with good intentions, and then they tend to bloat up to a point where self-preservation becomes the only goal. In the end, they end up being just as corrupt as the entity they were sworn to fight against...all while trying to feed you crap about solidarity and fairness. Is it fair that the UAW has a two-tiered wage system that is based not on merit, but length of current service? Does the tier-two worker, who makes half the salary of the guy next to him, not have to feed his family?

You're right that corporations get out of hand and there needs to be more balance in our world, but bolstering unions no matter the cost is not the answer....they all end up screwing the little guy in the end anyway. I don't trust either them, or any corporation, to look out for me. And honestly, I don't expect them to.

[freeweed]

ad hominem again.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

No one's attacking the message based on the messenger here. My disagreement with unions has nothing whatsoever to do with your character or beliefs. It's purely based on observations of how most unions operate. And at no time will you ever see me say "every single union past and future can never ever be good", so please stop trying to imply that.

Besides, I'm not sure I really want to bother with discussion when you're just going to throw that out at every single comment that goes against your beliefs.

PS: while that could be "ad hominem" if I was using it to actually say "you're wrong" based on your use of the phrase... I'm not. So again, still not ad hominem.

[freeweed]

See the thing is that you see unions as the good guy and the corporations as the bad guy. To me they are just different ends of the same shitty stick....neither of them cares about the little guy. Unions start out with good intentions, and then they tend to bloat up to a point where self-preservation becomes the only goal. In the end, they end up being just as corrupt as the entity they were sworn to fight against...all while trying to feed you crap about solidarity and fairness. Is it fair that the UAW has a two-tiered wage system that is based not on merit, but length of current service? Does the tier-two worker, who makes half the salary of the guy next to him, not have to feed his family?

You're right that corporations get out of hand and there needs to be more balance in our world, but bolstering unions no matter the cost is not the answer....they all end up screwing the little guy in the end anyway. I don't trust either them, or any corporation, to look out for me. And honestly, I don't expect them to.

Couldn't have said it better myself. And this is why discussing unions with pro-union people is generally pointless - they all too often assume that somehow you're defending corporations.

They're both evil. Period. But at least without a union, I'm free to negotiate for myself, and get a better deal based on merit. I know a lot of people claim that that's impossible, but I've done it all my life and it's worked out pretty damned sweet. It helps to be good at what you do. :D

If unions were optional, I'd be all for them. The fact that me as a worker who can and will negotiate for his own terms based on his own merit is a threat to unions - well, that says everything I need to know.

[gammell]

Ad hominem isn't a fallacy when the moral accusations are relevant to the subject at hand. If one is saying that unions are destructive to society because of corruption and abusive self-interest on the part of the ruling elites within unions, it's not a fallacy to present evidence or arguments along those lines.

People are, at least in part, evil. If you create a monopoly, of either labour or capital, then it is inevitable to see someone come along to abuse that concentration of power for their own ends at the expense of others. As both CorporateWhore and freeweed have indirectly mentioned, unions tend to be very aggressive in creating and protecting their monopolies in the west. These days, I'd say the issue is more pronounced with unions than corporations. There are some exceptions with corporations where functional cartels have been established to protect the status quo of the elites (e.g. the RIAA, MPAA, etc) and in those cases, we're seeing a similar popular backlash as what the unions are experiencing. Related to where this conversation started, I think labour monopolies are especially dangerous in the public sector where there can be excessive convergence with the government (who also hold a monopoly of force). The contrast in garbage collection in Calgary and Toronto (weak vs. strong convergence) is a demonstration of that.

[mooky]

Alright, I concede on the ad hominem abuse...... I was trying to say that since you claim one union is bad they all must.

brain fart.... but the argument still stands.... blargh.



I'm not as pro-union as you make me out to be, but you seem to be anti-union. If they were optional I would be fine with that. If we were without unions all together, we'd still be in the dark ages of workers rights as it concerns blue collar jobs however. If we abolished them, which we as a western society are attempting to do through negative media campaigning and foisting manufacturing off to jurisdictions with lax labor standards, it doesn't speak to a very enlightened social conscience when we still buy said products without at least acknowledging they were made through if not slave, then one step barely above slave labor.

And freeweed, the world in which you speak where everyone has the right to negotiate a fair deal with an employer without the use of a bargaining unit .... keep dreaming. It's a nice dream, but just that. Good for you that you have been able to, really, I applaud you, but bear in mind your experience is yours only.



PS: By any chance do you have any six fingers on your left hand? ;)

[freeweed]

The contrast in garbage collection in Calgary and Toronto (weak vs. strong convergence) is a demonstration of that.

Yeah, so far in my time here I've been impressed with how unions operate in this province. At least I assume many city/provincial services are unionized here. I've yet to see Calgary held hostage by a union. Or a complete breakdown in essential services.

So unions CAN work, or at least they seem to here for the most part.

[Bassic Lab]

Couldn't have said it better myself. And this is why discussing unions with pro-union people is generally pointless - they all too often assume that somehow you're defending corporations.

They're both evil. Period. But at least without a union, I'm free to negotiate for myself, and get a better deal based on merit. I know a lot of people claim that that's impossible, but I've done it all my life and it's worked out pretty damned sweet. It helps to be good at what you do. :D

If unions were optional, I'd be all for them. The fact that me as a worker who can and will negotiate for his own terms based on his own merit is a threat to unions - well, that says everything I need to know.

Unions cannot, in practice, be optional. They can either enforce collective bargaining for the entire workforce, or at least an entire segment of it, or else they are toothless and easily broken. There is no middle ground. Membership is either mandatory or there is no point. If you want to break the power of labour then, hey, that is your right but don't pretend that it isn't what you're advocating.

[MichaelS]

And freeweed, the world in which you speak where everyone has the right to negotiate a fair deal with an employer without the use of a bargaining unit .... keep dreaming. It's a nice dream, but just that. Good for you that you have been able to, really, I applaud you, but bear in mind your experience is yours only.


Why is it only a dream? What is preventing others from doing it? What makes Freeweed such a special case that he is to be considered abnormal?

If freeweed has the right to do it (and he has demonstrated that he has), doesn't that mean that everyone does (for this country, granted others in a dictatorship might not)?

[mooky]

Why is it only a dream? What is preventing others from doing it? What makes Freeweed such a special case that he is to be considered abnormal?

If freeweed has the right to do it (and he has demonstrated that he has), doesn't that mean that everyone does (for this country, granted others in a dictatorship might not)?

Everyone can try, many will fail.... do you think people before unions didn't try to negotiate? Were they always successful?

[freeweed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Ad_hominem_abuse

Union A is bad, therefore all unions are bad.

Still not ad hominem. Read that article just a bit more carefully. If I had said "mooky supports unions, but he beats his wife, so therefore unions are bad" - THAT would be ad hominem. If anything your example is an over-generalization at best, but it's certainly not an ad hominem.

And freeweed, the world in which you speak where everyone has the right to negotiate a fair deal with an employer without the use of a bargaining unit .... keep dreaming. It's a nice dream, but just that. Good for you that you have been able to, really, I applaud you, but bear in mind your experience is yours only.

See, that could be argued as bordering on ad hominem ("you're dreaming, therefore your argument is full of shit"). But I won't split hairs as I'd rather address a point directly.

It's not a dream. Everyone does have this right. Just because not everyone is WILLING to exercise this right, or does not have the ability to get a better deal based on merit, or have made life decisions that have resulted in them being completely stuck, does not mean people do not have the right.

I'm not talking about the 19th century. I'm not talking about China. I'm solely talking about the here and now, modern 21st century North America. Calgary, being a city primarily composed of non-unionized workers, is living proof that it's a reality now. Nearly everyone who works here has the ability (hell, the obligation, being non-unionized) to negotiate their own terms, and it's working out splendidly for Calgarians. We have the highest wages in the country, the highest cost of living by some standards (yet we still pay the bills), the highest employment rate.

So how you can call this a "dream" - :shrug: Much of this city lives it every day.

[freeweed]

Everyone can try, many will fail.... do you think people before unions didn't try to negotiate? Were they always successful?

Has every union protected every job? Has every union always looked out for its workers first?

[fusili]

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

PS: while that could be "ad hominem" if I was using it to actually say "you're wrong" based on your use of the phrase... I'm not. So again, still not ad hominem.

Ad hominem isn't a fallacy when the moral accusations are relevant to the subject at hand.

Alright, I concede on the ad hominem abuse...... I was trying to say that since you claim one union is bad they all must.

Still not ad hominem. Read that article just a bit more carefully. If I had said "mooky supports unions, but he beats his wife, so therefore unions are bad" - THAT would be ad hominem. If anything your example is an over-generalization at best, but it's certainly not an ad hominem.


Thanks freeweed. For the record, an ad homimen is where some one attacks an argument based on who is making the argument rather than the strength of the argument itself. Mooky, what you were accusing others of using would be called a "hasty generalization" or maybe a "biased sample." Just to clear things up.

[mooky]

Still not ad hominem. Read that article just a bit more carefully. If I had said "mooky supports unions, but he beats his wife, so therefore unions are bad" - THAT would be ad hominem. If anything your example is an over-generalization at best, but it's certainly not an ad hominem.

I edited, not quite ad-hominem on my part, sorry....

See, that could be argued as bordering on ad hominem ("you're dreaming, therefore your argument is full of shit"). But I won't split hairs as I'd rather address a point directly.

It's not a dream. Everyone does have this right. Just because not everyone is WILLING to exercise this right, or does not have the ability to get a better deal based on merit, or have made life decisions that have resulted in them being completely stuck, does not mean people do not have the right.

I'm not talking about the 19th century. I'm not talking about China. I'm solely talking about the here and now, modern 21st century North America. Calgary, being a city primarily composed of non-unionized workers, is living proof that it's a reality now. Nearly everyone who works here has the ability (hell, the obligation, being non-unionized) to negotiate their own terms, and it's working out splendidly for Calgarians. We have the highest wages in the country, the highest cost of living by some standards (yet we still pay the bills), the highest employment rate.

So how you can call this a "dream" - :shrug: Much of this city lives it every day.

We don't live bottled up in this city, your ipod isn't made here in Calgary is it? nor 95% of the products you or I use, unless your an extremist "localist" consumer living in a green earth home, minimalistic, with all your food being local, etc etc.... no one I know or I can probably assume you know is that "extreme"

As for it being your experience, it is, you are not everyone, that's not ad hominem, that's a fact. You have been able to negotiate a fair deal, the person making your cell phone in china, probably not, but we as a society allowed that manufacturing to take place in china as a subtle attack on unions because we wanted cheap goods (going back to my argument of the corporate lobby on free trade), driving the downward spiral of north American manufacturing, decimating the middle class in the process. With that goes the purchasing power they enjoy to buy good quality items so they have no choice but to shop at Walmart, buying cheap Chinese goods, continuing the viscous circle. At least I acknowledge that fact, even though in some cases there are no alternatives then to buy said cheap crap quality items. Deeper understanding of the issue at more then a local level, we live in a global world I keep getting told, so I see it as all linked.

Has every union protected every job? Has every union always looked out for its workers first?

No, but I prefer unions existing to the alternative still. Corporations always look out for profits in the end, not employees.


In the end, your anti-union stance boils down to "there is corruption in unions" .. well, yes and any time corruption is found it has to be rooted out, but there is also far more corruption in corporations, and they have done far more damage to workers rights then unions ever will, and unless you can come up with an alternative to unions, don't be so quick to marginalize what they have done in the past, what they continue to do in the present, and what they strive to do in the future for workers rights at home, and around the world.

If we fail to understand the past, we are bound to repeat the mistakes. And our past is the present in much of the world from which we get our goods off the backs of hundreds of millions of people with limited or no right to a fair deal, and we perpetuate it day in and day out. I don't want to go down that road, personally. And yes, I will stipulate I am a hypocrite consumer like most of cheap goods, but I try to make small differences, I don't shop at Walmart (go watch "WalMart: The High Cost of Low Prices" if you haven't) ... but I'm not perfect, far from it.

[jeffwhit]

^^ this is all very boring. Margaret Atwood is trying to steal our Mayor, and replace him with second rate thai food: http://twitter.com/#!/MargaretAtwood