[MalcolmTucker]

re: open shop vs closed shop debate.

If you believe in an open shop union environment do you believe individuals should be allowed to leave the state of citizenship and reassert their rights as a sovereign individual?

Because they are analogous - there was an article in the paper about them this past week even! http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Canada+freemen/3748349/story.html

[Wooster]

^^ this is all very boring. Margaret Atwood is trying to steal our Mayor, and replace him with second rate thai food: http://twitter.com/#!/MargaretAtwood

Ha! that's great.

[freeweed]

In the end, your anti-union stance boils down to "there is corruption in unions"

Actually, in the end my belief about unions is far more complex than that. It's just easier in a quick few sentences to point out how oh so many of them don't run for the benefits of the individual workers. However yes, my anti-corporation stance can also be largely viewed as "there is corruption in corporations", so it's a fair point.

Mostly, it's because unions work on an implicit assumption that workers are incapable. Whether it's of bargaining, or of just working efficiently - unions take everyone down to the lowest common denominator in a perpetual race to the bottom. Want to work harder? Not much point, because you'll be paid the same as the guys who work the least. More qualified? Again, you're still making the same as the least qualified guy here. Think you can do better on your own? Too bad, because you're stuck getting the same deal as everyone else. Hell, want to think on your own? Well, you don't have any choice. Your peers have decided to strike, so strike you must. Even if you disagree with why you're striking, even if you've done the financial analysis and know you're going to be worse off after a 3 month strike - doesn't matter. Your buddies don't understand math, so you're stuck striking and losing 3 months pay for that extra 1% raise the strike got you.

Unions are great for the absolute worst employees. They generally suck for the best. They're supposed to act as an equalizer but the way they run in practice in modern times, all they are is level setting down to the lowest employee.

I certainly won't argue about working conditions in China, and the general trend to send jobs overseas. Unions won't do much for the latter part - people in China would still be making a fraction of what we do, and the jobs would still be over there. The only way we'll ever stop that is to force corporate executives to work and earn their profits in the countries where they employ their people, but the cat's out of the bag on that one. Unions would never have stopped it anyway; corporations would have just shipped ALL jobs overseas instead of just some.

But as Jeff said, this is all boring and not the point of this thread.

[CorporateWhore]

^ what he said! Great post.

[fusili]

^ what he said! Great post.

Agreed. I am not a fan of unions, because they fail to do what any successful social organization should do: punish freeloaders. Unions never go after unproductive workers, or people who are taking advantage of the system. Unions seem to punish productivity, creative thinking and initiative and reward lazyness.

Although unions were important for initially organizing for workers rights, I think basic labour legislation is more appropriate (minimum wage, regulations over working conditions etc).

And some may complain about working conditions in many countries, but guess what, those people have chosen to move from their abject rural poverty into the city to get a wage paying job. They will save up (albeit slowly), send their children to school and improve their economic situation.

People are so torn up because they think that somehow the fact that workers in China getting paid less than American workers is a travesty. What chinese factory workers get compared to what they made as farmers is much greater and helps them advance economically.

[Wooster]

Check this out.
http://twosmiles.ca/Calgary-Route-Map

[freeweed]

fusili covers it succinctly as always. What China is experiencing today is exactly what western nations did in the 19th century. From subsistence farming to industrialization is a huge step up for most people. If conditions do not continue to improve, people will eventually unionize as required and eventually they'll be brought into the post-industrial age. Marx was right up till this point, at least.

Either that, or the Chinese may be fortunate enough to skip past decades of Labour strife. With their current government I don't see it happening but who knows.

[YYCguys]

Check this out.
http://twosmiles.ca/Calgary-Route-Map

Awesome!!!! :D

[Wentworth]

Don't know if this has been posted already:

2010 Citizen Satisfaction Survey for Calgary (http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/customerservice/2010_citizen_satisfaction_survey.pdf)

[mooky]

Nenshi Graffiti

http://twitpic.com/33o4p3

[Bigtime]

Read this incredible article about the Nenshi campaign:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Campaign+Full+Sentences/3781943/story.html

It includes shout-outs to SSP, Calgarypuck, Beyond.ca and our very own Jeffwhit makes an appearance at the end.

[Calgarian]

Thi isn't really municipal, but McIver and Higgins are running for a federal seat now. lol

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2010/11/04/calgary-mciver-prentice-mp-seat.html

[outoftheice]

Just curious if anybody knows how to contact Mayor Nenshi via e-mail? Now that the campaign is over, Nenshi.ca as well as his facebook page don't seem to be monitored. The City of Calgary website simply has a "coming soon" page for the Office of the Mayor with no contact information listed...

[mooky]

Just curious if anybody knows how to contact Mayor Nenshi via e-mail? Now that the campaign is over, Nenshi.ca as well as his facebook page don't seem to be monitored. The City of Calgary website simply has a "coming soon" page for the Office of the Mayor with no contact information listed...

mayor@calgary.ca ?

[outoftheice]

I'll give that a try! Thanks!

[jeffwhit]

Read this incredible article about the Nenshi campaign:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Campaign+Full+Sentences/3781943/story.html

It includes shout-outs to SSP, Calgarypuck, Beyond.ca and our very own Jeffwhit makes an appearance at the end.

That's not me. Unless the author is confusing my SSP account with the Jeff in question. I wasn't a scrutineer, and I don't think I was "late to the party," as I was on board after TEDxCalgary. Also, I knew he won the night of, I was on here with the die hards. I did talk on SSP and chalk sidewalks.

EDIT: This is an incredible article though, it really captured the feeling of that whole campaign just perfectly. Thanks for posting Aa.

[DizzyEdge]

mayor@calgary.ca ?

is it mayor or themayor, I can't remember. naheed.nenshi@calgary.ca might work as well.

[DizzyEdge]

Thi isn't really municipal, but McIver and Higgins are running for a federal seat now. lol

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2010/11/04/calgary-mciver-prentice-mp-seat.html

Funny, they're both considering running for the same seat.. calgary election part deux.

[CorporateWhore]

Read this incredible article about the Nenshi campaign:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Campaign+Full+Sentences/3781943/story.html


Damn, really great article. It's almost too good for the Herald....I could picture Bigtime reading it in his monthly New Yorker.

[Bigtime]

Politics in full sentences. This actually went down on Twitter last night:

http://twitpic.com/show/large/34axmv

[freeweed]

That is pure awesome.

Oh, and that article was so long I finished my latte before I was done reading it. How the hell is Joe the Plumber supposed to read that much story?

[freeweed]

Choice quote from the article (for me anyway):

Now the communications mamager of an official team, Einarson imagined a street corner at the height of the election, with several established aldermen clamouring for the top job. "We needed something to stand out on that corner." He built a website, which was originally blue and gold. "I hated those colours," he said, and so, for no other reason than the knowledge that no other campaign would pick it, the scout looked into the colour purple's political implications. In U.S. elections, swing states are often marked by purple, which struck Einarson as appropriate. Then it dawned on him. You make purple by mixing blue and red, the colours that traditionally represent the left and the right. This would become symbolic of the apolitical volunteers who would come to work on the campaign, many of whom were a little right on the spectrum on certain issues, and a little left on others.


I hinted towards this a while back; good to see my intuition wasn't completely wasted. Such is the way when writing forum posts in full sentences. *drinks more latte*

[Ferreth]

That is pure awesome.

Oh, and that article was so long I finished my latte before I was done reading it. How the hell is Joe the Plumber supposed to read that much story?

That article ain't directed at Joe the Plumber - it is more for people who post in forums such as this, or perhaps would be posting here if they were not too busy doing something to make a difference here or elsewhere.

[MalcolmTucker]

It was in Swerve, Herald's attempt at reaching out to hipsters and more urban folk no?

[Bigtime]

Yup that article was in Swerve. I guess the hard copy had a lot more pictures, I'll see it tomorrow when I swing by my parents place (they get the Herald).

[MalcolmTucker]

The print layout is awesome (read on the e-edition).

[freeweed]

That article ain't directed at Joe the Plumber - it is more for people who post in forums such as this, or perhaps would be posting here if they were not too busy doing something to make a difference here or elsewhere.

Now I'm not sure which of us is being more deliberately ironic.

[shogged]

haha the jeff in the end is actually me! the writer of the article was from vancouver who happened to be following around nenshi for a few days and alot of my volunteering met up with him. at nenshi headquarters I ran into him again and had a candid conversation thats now word for word in the article! :haha:

[Wooster]

haha the jeff in the end is actually me! the writer of the article was from vancouver who happened to be following around nenshi for a few days and alot of my volunteering met up with him. at nenshi headquarters I ran into him again and had a candid conversation thats now word for word in the article! :haha:

Nice. Well done - I was wondering who that was.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Congrats shogged!

Chris Koentges is the author- he is absolutely an amazing writer. If you guys remember a piece about me and my coffee obsessions that ran in Swerve in 2007, he was the one who wrote it. He does live in Vancouver now, though tells me it's not permanent.

My partner is quoted extensively in there too- and I recall the post-Japadog phone call: "Don't tell anyone, but Naheed is thinking of running for mayor."

[Canadian74]

Is the proposed Airport tunnel/underpass something like this?

http://www.airliners.net/photo/China-Eastern-Airlines/Airbus-A330-343X/1809280/L/

[fusili]

Is the proposed Airport tunnel/underpass something like this?

http://www.airliners.net/photo/China-Eastern-Airlines/Airbus-A330-343X/1809280/L/

That looks like a roadway under a taxiway and not a runway.

[Canadian74]

That looks like a roadway under a taxiway and not a runway.

Yes, but is the concept similar? If you're driving on the Underpass, will you be able to see planes above you on the runway?

[Ramsayfarian]

Yup that article was in Swerve. I guess the hard copy had a lot more pictures, I'll see it tomorrow when I swing by my parents place (they get the Herald).

I think the link had more photos.

I was at my sister's place the other night for dinner, and both my niece and nephew started talking about Nenshi. It kind of caught me by surprise as they're 8 and 10.

[devonb]

I teach 8-10 year olds. You'd be surprised how up to date, aware and knowledgeable they are - especially my class when I'm done with them. ;)

[Ramsayfarian]

I teach 8-10 year olds. You'd be surprised how up to date, aware and knowledgeable they are - especially my class when I'm done with them. ;)

Very commendable job you have there. I'm starting to have hope for the future.

[DizzyEdge]

That is pure awesome.

Oh, and that article was so long I finished my latte before I was done reading it. How the hell is Joe the Plumber supposed to read that much story?

I made sure that I had a cappacino AND a macchiato.

[Bigtime]

I've been following the tweets of todays council meeting. Why is it the Mar always has time to tweet during the meetings? Shouldn't he be giving his UNDIVIDED attention to the matters before him?

Useless, absolutely useless.

[fusili]

I've been following the tweets of todays council meeting. Why is it the Mar always has time to tweet during the meetings? Shouldn't he be giving his UNDIVIDED attention to the matters before him?

Useless, absolutely useless.

Facepalm....

[Bigtime]

Wow, it's like Nenshi read my mind about my post about Mar tweeting during council meetings, check this out:

No, I won't be tweeting live during meetings -- need to be present and respectful. But I think it went well today!

[freeweed]

Nenshi's twit interactions that Bigtime posted a page prior is circulating on the wider Internet... had someone not from Calgary send it to me today.

[Bigtime]

I'm raging against Mar again this morning, does this make any sense to any of you?

Rookie Ald. Gian-Carlo Carra, questioned a motion to go behind closed doors Tuesday during a Land and Asset Strategy committee meeting, saying he heard during the election campaign Calgarians aren’t happy with such “random” decisions.

Ald. John Mar asked committee to go behind closed doors because he had some sensitive questions to ask bureaucrats on one agenda item.

So Mar asks to go in-camera to ask some "sensitive questions" but then after some debating on the matter:

The committee voted 4-3 to go behind closed doors and those who supported it included Carra, Ald. Druh Farrell, Ald. Richard Pootmans and Ald. Dale Hodges.

Mar, who asked for the behind-closed doors discussion, Keating and Ald. Andre Chabot voted against the motion.

So Mar puts forward a motion to go in-camera, and the votes against it? Am I missing something here?

Or is it just another classic example of Mar being the ultimate fence sitter and not bringing anything of value to city council? Go leave for provincial/federal politics already and let Pashak get in there.

Full article here: http://www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/2010/11/09/16057761.html

[Ramsayfarian]

I'm raging against Mar again this morning, does this make any sense to any of you?



So Mar asks to go in-camera to ask some "sensitive questions" but then after some debating on the matter:



So Mar puts forward a motion to go in-camera, and the votes against it? Am I missing something here?

Or is it just another classic example of Mar being the ultimate fence sitter and not bringing anything of value to city council? Go leave for provincial/federal politics already and let Pashak get in there.

Full article here: http://www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/2010/11/09/16057761.html


I wonder if the Sun switched Carra's and Mar's names around.

[Bigtime]

Hmm, that could be the case. Or it's just more Mar flip-flopping.

[charper]

Political parties more and more seem to be the single biggest problem in our modern democratic systems. At all levels. Plus, they just make voters stupid - remember how many people voted Republican in the US in 2004 because they thought Republicans supported "small government"? :koko:

Not sure I've seen a large federalist system without parties though, so it's possible the alternative could be worse. I cannot for the life of me imagine the purpose of parties in municipal politics, regardless.

I agree with Sir Humphrey Appleby. Political parties help consolidate the ideas and perspectives which could largely be considered the dominant ways of thinking in the electorate. You would therefore conclude the size of the parties would be proportional in some way to the level of agreement elicited from the electorate.

I don't think parties make voters stupid. But on the other hand, not having parties makes voters confused. The number one comment I had on the doors regarding the 2010 Calgary Civic Election mayoral race was "I'm confused" or "there's too many people running".

Without parties, name recognition will be a dominant factor as SHA states. Yet, parties also have name recognition that plays a factor in elections. So in my opinion you can’t get away from name recognition because people will most always go towards that which is familiar, whether a person or a party.

When I ran in 2010, my team and I had to build our own party. At the start we had no data, few hands, no money, and little meaningful name recognition. Throughout the campaign we had to build these things. Clearly an incumbent of 27 years would have superior name recognition, data, and volunteers. Yet, given the results of the 2010 election for Calgary Ward 1 it’s clear that it is possible to get your name out there and build that profile.

Is it tough? Absolutely. Is it impossible? No.

[freeweed]

What you say makes sense for the few informed voters out there. Unfortunately, the party system ends up generally being like a football game. People just keep supporting "their team" without ever actually thinking about why. I can count on one hand the number of people I know who've actually switched party allegiance in the past 20 years - short of a major scandal, or just a general "time for someone new" feeling. Most people just keep voting for the same party over and over, even with massive policy shifts within that party (the US is a great case in point, as is Alberta for that matter).

And of course, the entire system assumes that a given party can encompass a particular voter's beliefs. I've yet to see this work for me federally or provincially. How the heck would you even assign Nenshi to any of the traditional parties in this country? I have a very hard time pigeonholing him, and yet clearly the voters in Calgary are satisfied with the whole package.

I dunno, it just seems like it takes much of thinking out of the process for most people. Party politics is mostly about buzzwords and a few hot-button issues these days.

But I'm naive. You guys talk about things like "name recognition" and "consolidating platforms". I'm naive enough to think that voters might actually take 5 minutes out of their lives to pretend to read enough to be informed. I know, I'm a hopeless optimist when it comes to politics. :) This is also why at the end of the day I'm one of the most disenfranchised voters out there - because I'm keenly aware that most people don't spend the 5 minutes, and it's really all about name recognition and comfort levels.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Chris, I didn't go back and check, but I am glad that being through the wringer of a local election process hasmade you come around to the ideas with parties (I seem to remember you thinking they would be substantially negative at best)

I am wondering what you think about this article from up in Edmonton: A pundit tries his hand at politics (http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/pundit+tries+hand+politics/3791111/story.html), any impressions you would add from your experience?

[fusili]

Chris, just want to congratulate you on a terrific campaign. I really, really wish someone as sophisticated and intelligent as you got Ward 1 and not Hodges, who hasn't changed at all since the 70s.

[Bigtime]

Chris, just want to congratulate you on a terrific campaign. I really, really wish someone as sophisticated and intelligent as you got Ward 1 and not Hodges, who hasn't changed at all since the 70s.

Let me second that, a damn shame you didn't get the chair.

[charper]

Let me second that, a damn shame you didn't get the chair.

Thanks guys :) You make it sound like it was the last election Calgary would ever have! :ack:

[Bigtime]

Oh you didn't hear that Nenshi is dissolving council and becoming our supreme emperor? ;)

[charper]

^ Chris, I didn't go back and check, but I am glad that being through the wringer of a local election process hasmade you come around to the ideas with parties (I seem to remember you thinking they would be substantially negative at best)

I am wondering what you think about this article from up in Edmonton: A pundit tries his hand at politics (http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/pundit+tries+hand+politics/3791111/story.html), any impressions you would add from your experience?

Now that's an interesting read. Here’s a long response!

He talks about looking for a campaign manager. I had the choice of experience or someone I knew I could trust without a doubt. I chose to go with the later. I felt that my campaign manager and I could learn what was needed to execute. What would nag me awake at 2am would be questions of trust and competence. I chose to sleep at night!

I started to consider running very early. Sept of 2009. For me, the planning began the moment I decided this was something I should do; win or lose. I marinated is as much information about campaigns, municipal issues, and what being an Alderman was really about. It meant discussions with my spouse and my family. I never ran because others told me I should. I ran because I decided to run and because my spouse let me (they pay a price throughout the campaign and after... especially if the candidate wins!).

I launched officially in Feb 2010. This was against the wishes of my campaign manager. I wanted the head start to hit the doors and meet as many people as possible. He later admitted it was the right move!

That had a price though which I knew would come. In order to run a campaign starting in Feb 2010 all the way to Oct 2010 I needed endurance. I felt like quitting at least 6 times until nomination day came around. I kept myself going by saying "If you don't feel like quitting at least a few times, you're not working hard enough". I also prepared myself before hand from my research that those moments would come. That statement became my anchor.

I disagree with the feeling that a campaign is no place for comedy. If you can’t laugh at yourself or have others laugh at/with you, it’s going to be a long road. Take my story about going into the Bow to rescue one of my large format signs. Yeah, it’s a funny story and looks desperate, but as I stated at the forum “why waste what can be saved?” So it was funny but had real meaning behind it.

Campaign volunteers are awesome! It’s impossible to run a legitimate campaign without them. All of my volunteers believed in me and I involved them in decisions regardless of what role they played. Most importantly, I made sure that my core team were not “yes” people. I’m most likely to agree with myself already; so, it’s a waste of opinions if everyone around me does too! (this was something I brought over from my professional life)

We ran our campaign with a virtual campaign office leveraging Microsoft SharePoint, SalesForce, and Google Maps for coordination (example of maps on my facebook page). My feeling was that me and my volunteers should be out on the streets and not on couches in an office. The best part of this technology approach was that ipad, iphones, and blackberries all had access to virtual office tools from anywhere!

So what about the challenging parts…..

I’m a consultant. Very used to having my ideas criticized. It took a lot of thinking to get used to the idea that constant criticism is part of being an Alderman and being a candidate. I mean, I knew I would be criticized, but wow is that an understatement. Sometimes I would receive voicemails, most often emails. Once I was getting a coffee and actually had someone recognize me and become very angry towards me right in a coffee shop about an issue I had nothing to do with and was actually trying to have addressed! At the end of the day, I got used to it. It was simply something my mind had to adjust to.

The campaign all started with me back in Sept 2009. I grew this idea, made my positions, developed my own website, assessed the landscape, and built my core team. Then along comes my Campaign Manager to take it all away! Letting go was really tough. Eventually I did let it go… most of it anyway! I refused to have anyone see my emails before I did, touch my social media, or write my blog posts (I’m sure you can find spelling errors to prove this!). If you called my campaign you got my cell phone and I returned calls personally as soon as possible. Authenticity is important to me. The website and graphics were also something I did myself. I’m very particular about presentation and so kept my fingers on those things.

Would I run again? Yes. Would I do things differently? Some. Am I sad I lost? Hell no.

I look back at Chris Harper in 2009 and look at myself now and realize that I know so much more about the people, processes, and opportunities we have in Calgary than I ever did. Despite losing I gained so much.

Our City is complex with so many people and organizations all with different visions of what it should be. Things makes for a lot of disagreement, but also gives us a lot of potential. I’m diving right back into my work with the Federation of Calgary Communities, Chamber of Commerce, and am even going to be helping out on some more civically active organizations. All very exciting!

[charper]

^ Chris, I didn't go back and check, but I am glad that being through the wringer of a local election process hasmade you come around to the ideas with parties (I seem to remember you thinking they would be substantially negative at best)

I am wondering what you think about this article from up in Edmonton: A pundit tries his hand at politics (http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/pundit+tries+hand+politics/3791111/story.html), any impressions you would add from your experience?

Forgot to respond to the parties bit. I wouldn't say I'm for or against parties, but curious. All it will take is one group organizing a credible party and others will have to follow to stay competitive with an organized machine running candidates and providing them with data. I would say PGIB seems closest to this in Calgary right now.

[Rusty van Reddick]

I would say PGIB seems closest to this in Calgary right now.

And we saw how well it worked for those extremist freaks.

[charper]

And we saw how well it worked for those extremist freaks.

Every failure makes them less wrong then they were before. They did get Peter D. on Council with Craig Chandler as his Ward Assistant. I imagine we will see the (re)emergence of a not-PGIB organization soonish.

[Me&You]

Saw this on another forum and figured you guys would like a laugh on a Friday afternoon -

http://i.imgur.com/WDuPJ.png

[frinkprof]

I haven't seen it posted here yet.

There's a Nenshi mural graffiti piece in the Kensington area (I think).

http://fairstyle.ca/images/nenshFull.jpg

It was done by some members of a group that my friend belongs to.

Read/see more about the piece and the group of artists at their website/blog:

http://fairstyle.ca/

CBC news story:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2010/11/11/calgary-naheed-nenshi-graffiti-art-kensington.html

[charper]

Well the proposed budget is now released. Any thoughts?

You can find the detailed version here:

http://c2783962.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/proposed_2011_adjustments_to_business_plans_and_budgets.pdf

The "buffet" of optional adjustments are found here:

http://c2783962.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/options_for_further_reductions_to_2011_business_plans_and_budgets.pdf

I wouldn't put too much weight on the press release summary. With these things you need to read between the lines. I'll be putting my thoughts up on my blog (site will be up shortly) soon.

Chris

[DizzyEdge]

Can someone confirm that the huge 6.7% increase in property taxes is the equivalent to only about $3 extra a paycheque (assuming 26 paydays a year)? It seems barely worth mentioning.

[freeweed]

Can someone confirm that the huge 6.7% increase in property taxes is the equivalent to only about $3 extra a paycheque (assuming 26 paydays a year)? It seems barely worth mentioning.

$79 a year is what I saw as a quote. $6/month, so yeah, $3/paycheque.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, the way our tax system is, 6.7% is not really 6.7%. On a real basis I have to wonder what it actually is (even without using constant dollars) in terms of percentage for the average house.

[freeweed]

No, I think 6.7% is about right. If the average property tax in Calgary is just over $1000, a 6.7% increase would work out to $79 a year.

Most people forget that property taxes are only half of what you pay in that big bill every year, not sure if that's what you're getting at.

[Bigtime]

I wish my property tax was only $1000/year.

[DizzyEdge]

I just figure we have it pretty good if a $3 a cheque increase is front page news for months.

[Ferreth]

I don't think there were any big complains this last election - thus the standard, taxes, roads, and transit (which is a newer standard complaint in Calgary) came to the front as the default complains when there wasn't anything bigger on the radar. I was almost hoping for a freak snowstorm before the election just to see how that would've stirred up the pot!

[MalcolmTucker]

Nenshi will push for secondary suites throughout Calgary

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Nenshi+will+push+secondary+suites+throughout+Calgary/3851731/story.html#ixzz15hR4DBX1

“What I propose is that we legalize them immediately, one fell swoop, in every neighbourhood in the city, subject to some very basic conditions,” he [Nenshi] said.

(http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Nenshi+will+push+secondary+suites+throughout+Calgary/3851731/story.html#ixzz15hRFxxDL)
Those include following safety and fire codes, ensuring all suites far from transit stations have parking spaces, and that homeowners live in houses with legal suites — a provision that city lawyers have cautioned against, Nenshi said.Big fight a coming. The ownership residency part will go down, but hopefully the rest survives to come into law.

[You Need A Thneed]

The ownership residency is impossible to enforce. Plus, what if a place is legally suited, but then the owner needs to move? Is he only allowed to sell to someone who will live in the house? There are other logistical nightmare with that requirement as well.

[Koolfire]

The ownership residency is impossible to enforce. Plus, what if a place is legally suited, but then the owner needs to move? Is he only allowed to sell to someone who will live in the house? There are other logistical nightmare with that requirement as well.

I see why this rule is there. I agree it would be difficult to enforce but at the same time I'm not overly interested in seeing neighbourhoods bought up by investors so they can subdivide single homes into multifamily. Without this rule you might as well rezone all R-1 to R-2.

As for selling, a grace period could be allowed. But anyone buying this house would likely be looking to rent out the unit for extra income otherwise their probably not interest in the house, unless it's an investor, back the first argument.

[MalcolmTucker]

I see why this rule is there. I agree it would be difficult to enforce but at the same time I'm not overly interested in seeing neighbourhoods bought up by investors so they can subdivide single homes into multifamily. Without this rule you might as well rezone all R-1 to R-2.

As for selling, a grace period could be allowed. But anyone buying this house would likely be looking to rent out the unit for extra income otherwise their probably not interest in the house, unless it's an investor, back the first argument.
Simply put treating someone differently whether they are an absentee landlord, or a live in owner is pretty much unconstitutional.

Sec 15, Charter of Rights and Freedoms: Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law

No different than saying only families with more than two children can own a house with more than 3 bedrooms, or that you have to prove you need a truck for work to buy one. Equal protection under the law.

[freeweed]

I wish my property tax was only $1000/year.

It probably is, unless you live in a $750,000 house or something. Remember, half of that bill you pay every year isn't property tax.

What kind of taxes DO people pay in condos, anyway?

[freeweed]

Simply put treating someone differently whether they are an absentee landlord, or a live in owner is pretty much unconstitutional.

Errr.. I can think of dozens of laws that treat these 2 groups of people differently. From zoning laws to tax laws to liability issues, if it's unconstitutional, we better have a chat.

[Bigtime]

It probably is, unless you live in a $750,000 house or something. Remember, half of that bill you pay every year isn't property tax.

What kind of taxes DO people pay in condos, anyway?

I believe this year we are paying about $2700 in taxes for 1100 square feet and two parking spaces.

[freeweed]

I believe this year we are paying about $2700 in taxes for 1100 square feet and two parking spaces.

Wow, that's insane. Although 1100 is pretty big for inner city. 2 parking spaces eh? And here I lived in the suburbs for years with only one car. ;) Yes, I know, they probably just come with the unit... :P

That makes your property tax about $1400-1500?

[Bigtime]

Actually we purchased the 2nd parking stall, for Mrs. Bigtime. She has a 2008 Yaris with a whopping 20,000 km on it. Her driving has increased since we had Littletime.

[fusili]

Errr.. I can think of dozens of laws that treat these 2 groups of people differently. From zoning laws to tax laws to liability issues, if it's unconstitutional, we better have a chat.

Zoning laws make no distinction between owners and renters. Any planning legislation can only make reference to the use of a site, and not to the users. Any bylaw that does distinguish between renters and owners can be challenged based on the Municipal Government Act. Residential is residential, no matter who is living there.

[MalcolmTucker]

Errr.. I can think of dozens of laws that treat these 2 groups of people differently. From zoning laws to tax laws to liability issues, if it's unconstitutional, we better have a chat.

Besides the capital gains issue which if challenged would likely fall and then be changed to a sheer dollar amount instead of a primary residence exemption, the other laws shouldn't stand. A renter renting a house with a secondary suite has just as much of a right to enjoy full use of the property as an owner, and rent out the suite. (or the owner rent out the two separately) Plus, aren't we all just renters in a way from the banks :rolleyes:

Now it is different for a corporation. I don't think equal protection applies in the same way, but you would have to ask a lawyer.

As for liability, I know insurance companies are allowed to discriminate, I am sure there was a charter case that set that law from the 80s or 90s.

All other 2 groups being treated differently have to pass the Oakes Test, which basically asks is the reason good enough and is the difference as small as it can be to accomplish the goal.

To be honest, most peoples complaints about suites aren't solved by having the owners living there - some owners are still partiers. And a rented house can still be sub rented five ways from sunday causing parking problems. How is that any difference from a split house? Much easier to just put in parking restrictions automatically when you apply to split the house, or put blanket maximum residency requirements.

[charper]

Besides the capital gains issue which if challenged would likely fall and then be changed to a sheer dollar amount instead of a primary residence exemption, the other laws shouldn't stand. A renter renting a house with a secondary suite has just as much of a right to enjoy full use of the property as an owner, and rent out the suite. (or the owner rent out the two separately) Plus, aren't we all just renters in a way from the banks :rolleyes:

Now it is different for a corporation. I don't think equal protection applies in the same way, but you would have to ask a lawyer.

As for liability, I know insurance companies are allowed to discriminate, I am sure there was a charter case that set that law from the 80s or 90s.

All other 2 groups being treated differently have to pass the Oakes Test, which basically asks is the reason good enough and is the difference as small as it can be to accomplish the goal.

To be honest, most peoples complaints about suites aren't solved by having the owners living there - some owners are still partiers. And a rented house can still be sub rented five ways from sunday causing parking problems. How is that any difference from a split house? Much easier to just put in parking restrictions automatically when you apply to split the house, or put blanket maximum residency requirements.

SHA is correct regarding owner occupied suites. I attended several focus groups on this issue and the number one concern was rowdy tenants followed by parking.

Rowdy tenants have little to do with secondary suites. Your neighbour could very well rent out their entire house (as SHA also states) or even worse, rent out every room in the home plus the couch to car owning tenants.

It makes little sense to place an extra burden on the owners and tenants of secondary suites without placing the same burden on the owner and tenants of a rental property in general.

If the parking issue can be resolved (current requirement is +1 stall for the secondary suite in additional to primary residence.. otherwise Disc. Use required).

Here's a (ficticious) example. My sweet mother has grown old. She doesn't want to be shipped off to a nursing home. I live in an RC1 area and would like to build a suite for her downstairs where I am near, but she is still able to be on her own. Should this secondary suite be exempt?

Many people I have presented that argument to say she should be exempt. This has shown me that the issue is more about who occupies the suite than the suite itself.

So is the issue secondary suites? Or is the issue our judgement of who occupies them?

[mooky]

It probably is, unless you live in a $750,000 house or something. Remember, half of that bill you pay every year isn't property tax.

What kind of taxes DO people pay in condos, anyway?

I think my total 2010 property tax bill was around $1100 for a 786 sq foot condo conversion in Bridgeland. I don't have a titled parking spot, just assigned.

[halifaxboyns]

Zoning laws make no distinction between owners and renters. Any planning legislation can only make reference to the use of a site, and not to the users. Any bylaw that does distinguish between renters and owners can be challenged based on the Municipal Government Act. Residential is residential, no matter who is living there.

You are close - but it's not the MGA that would control this; it has to do with case law set in the supreme court related to the issue of 'seniors housing' and defining a family.

Back in the 80's zoning did have definitions of family so you typically saw the 'single family home'. Then in the late 80's there were challenges to these distinctions (I believe in Ontario) that made it to the supreme court, not just on family but on senior's housing (if you dedicate housing to senior's you are discriminating on other people). That argument was accepted by the supreme court and thus zoning has changed so you no longer see 'seniors homes' - you see 'assisted living' (or something along that line) or 'single detached dwelling' (not single family dwelling). The courts have recognized that the definition of family is changing a lot; especially with gay marriage and immigrant family compositions being different from the 'typical' North American family. The courts have even concluded that fraternaties are families, just not be blood or marriage.

I've been studying this a lot and it's really quite interesting how the laws have changed...

[freeweed]

:previous: I still see plenty of "retirement homes" in this country. Does that mean I could just force my way into one by arguing discrimination?

Hell, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd swear we still have "adults only" buildings in Canada. Maybe I'm just used to seeing them in the US and getting confused.

[mersar]

:previous: I still see plenty of "retirement homes" in this country. Does that mean I could just force my way into one by arguing discrimination?

Hell, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd swear we still have "adults only" buildings in Canada. Maybe I'm just used to seeing them in the US and getting confused.

We do. Theres quite a few in the Beltline, including some of the newer towers. I believe Bigtime mentioned once that Vetro or Sasso were such.

[Bigtime]

We do. Theres quite a few in the Beltline, including some of the newer towers. I believe Bigtime mentioned once that Vetro or Sasso were such.

Sasso, Vetro, and Nuera are all 18+ buildings. Which I would argue hurts the dynamics of the community, believe it or not there are some of us with kids that actually live in condo buildings!

In arriVa alone I would hazard to guess that there are probably about 20 families, not too bad a number when you consider that most assume people flee from condos once they have a kid or two.

[freeweed]

Personally, as much as I joke about wanting to be as far from kids as possible I think I'd rather have families living next to me than a bunch of childless Calgary bachelors. The Bigtimes of the world don't often have thumping bass at 2 am.

[fusili]

Sasso, Vetro, and Nuera are all 18+ buildings. Which I would argue hurts the dynamics of the community, believe it or not there are some of us with kids that actually live in condo buildings!

In arriVa alone I would hazard to guess that there are probably about 20 families, not too bad a number when you consider that most assume people flee from condos once they have a kid or two.

We have quite a few in Emerald stone too. Mostly young children up to the age of I would guess 6 or 7. Not much past that.

[Bigtime]

Personally, as much as I joke about wanting to be as far from kids as possible I think I'd rather have families living next to me than a bunch of childless Calgary bachelors. The Bigtimes of the world don't often have thumping bass at 2 am.

This is true, and with a 9pm bedtime you can be assured we are asleep before you! Plus Littletime now sleeps through the night! Booya!

[MalcolmTucker]

Sasso, Vetro, and Nuera are all 18+ buildings. Which I would argue hurts the dynamics of the community, believe it or not there are some of us with kids that actually live in condo buildings!

In arriVa alone I would hazard to guess that there are probably about 20 families, not too bad a number when you consider that most assume people flee from condos once they have a kid or two.

I don't think 18+ buildings would really hold up in court if someone tried to enforce it. As it is I would guess only really peer pressure if you could call it that would be the way to enforce.

[fusili]

[QUOTE=halifaxboyns;5068728]You are close - but it's not the MGA that would control this; it has to do with case law set in the supreme court related to the issue of 'seniors housing' and defining a family.
QUOTE]

I am pretty sure the MGA has some language around this. Earlier legal cases you mentioned are the reasons for the law, the MGA is just one of the legal documents where it is laid out. I would imagine all provinces have similar language in their planning legislation.

[shogged]

they can advertise as adult buildings, but it's against the law to discriminate against Race, Gender, Age, etc. This includes rentals and purchases. So yes, we still have "adult" buildings, but you're not going to get kicked out of your apartment if you have a child one day.

[freeweed]

they can advertise as adult buildings, but it's against the law to discriminate against Race, Gender, Age, etc. This includes rentals and purchases. So yes, we still have "adult" buildings, but you're not going to get kicked out of your apartment if you have a child one day.

So I can move into a senior's home tomorrow if I so chose?

[MalcolmTucker]

A home is based on condition of health - at least the government funded ones. I know some young people that are not well end up in a nursing home where almost all residents are seniors.

[Bassic Lab]

So I can move into a senior's home tomorrow if I so chose?

Probably not an assisted living building but a 55+ condo complex legally cannot keep younger people out if they really want in. They still exist largely because there just are not that many people under 55 who would want to live there, let alone want to enough to go through the hassle of fighting the board over it.

If I recall correctly, the case that settled it involved someone who inherited a unit, tried to live there, and then was pissy enough fight the condo board basically out of spite. Such conditions are pretty rare.

[Bigtime]

Some condo boards do need someone with money and an axe to grind to put them in their place. I've heard some real horror stories.

[Ramsayfarian]

So I can move into a senior's home tomorrow if I so chose?

That might be the only chance I have of being a chick magnet. And by chick I mean some old lady.

[freeweed]

Probably not an assisted living building but a 55+ condo complex legally cannot keep younger people out if they really want in. They still exist largely because there just are not that many people under 55 who would want to live there, let alone want to enough to go through the hassle of fighting the board over it.

If I recall correctly, the case that settled it involved someone who inherited a unit, tried to live there, and then was pissy enough fight the condo board basically out of spite. Such conditions are pretty rare.

Interesting. It's not exactly something I care about too much, for as you say there aren't exactly hordes of young people trying this. Good on that guy/gal for fighting the good fight.

I wonder how long until the rest of our age discrimination goes by the wayside. The feds and provinces still practice plenty of it, but housing is a start.

[charper]

Some condo boards do need someone with money and an axe to grind to put them in their place. I've heard some real horror stories.

I've served on many boards and condo boards have by far been the most difficult boards to be on. Few people engage their condo communities and this leaves the governance of the building to those few who are engaged or those who have personal agendas. Sadly, the later has been most common in my experience.

Condo boards are very important and should be scrutinized before making a purchase... as the Millrise residents found out after their homes were destroyed by the fire.

[suburb]

I've served on many boards and condo boards have by far been the most difficult boards to be on. Few people engage their condo communities and this leaves the governance of the building to those few who are engaged or those who have personal agendas. Sadly, the later has been most common in my experience.

I sat in as proxy for my folks at their recent condo board meeting. I asked for there to be a review of if they can add furniture in the lobbies. The lobbies have been bare since creation over a decade ago - so people waiting for a ride or what have you lean against walls and such - and it looks badly on the entire unit. The Chair and friends (IE rest of the board) immediately said no, stating that people may steal the furniture. I said that the proposal was to investigate how it could be done. Another board member interjected immediately saying, lets have a vote to see how many people would like to see the fees increased to meet this request. I replied saying that this would not be required as just the dollars from the last year were in the positive $50K, far more than a one time $5K cost with virtually zero on-going costs. They they said I need to make the request formally with a letter, to which I responded that it was the AGM and the minutes should be sufficient. Anyway - the board has been virtually the same for the last decade. I voted for a couple new folks but they did not get in. Still no furniture and I suspect nothing will happen. Oh, and it turns out that the Chair's larger condo unit is the one immediately above the entry lobby.

[charper]

I sat in as proxy for my folks at their recent condo board meeting. I asked for there to be a review of if they can add furniture in the lobbies. The lobbies have been bare since creation over a decade ago - so people waiting for a ride or what have you lean against walls and such - and it looks badly on the entire unit. The Chair and friends (IE rest of the board) immediately said no, stating that people may steal the furniture. I said that the proposal was to investigate how it could be done. Another board member interjected immediately saying, lets have a vote to see how many people would like to see the fees increased to meet this request. I replied saying that this would not be required as just the dollars from the last year were in the positive $50K, far more than a one time $5K cost with virtually zero on-going costs. They they said I need to make the request formally with a letter, to which I responded that it was the AGM and the minutes should be sufficient. Anyway - the board has been virtually the same for the last decade. I voted for a couple new folks but they did not get in. Still no furniture and I suspect nothing will happen. Oh, and it turns out that the Chair's larger condo unit is the one immediately above the entry lobby.

Great example. If they would like furniture, you could petition for a Special Meeting of the Members (requirements should be in the bylaws) which would need to state the proposed business for the meeting (you cannot add or change the business afterward). In this case the business would be a motion to the effect of "direct the Corporation to purchase to the maximum sum of $5,000: one couch, 2 lounge chairs, and 2 small tables... yada yada". It would be best if you also set a date for the purchases and placement to be complete by. If you fail to do that, the board retains the power to decide the date and... well... that might be a loooong way off.

Key is to be as specific as possible. If you say "put furniture in the lobby" you leave it up to the board to use it's judgment which may not agree with your definition of furniture.

Bottom line is members delegate authority to the Board and the Board to the Management Company. But the members always have ultimate authority. They just need to know how to execute it.

[shogged]

So I can move into a senior's home tomorrow if I so chose?

yes. assisted living homes no, because they aren't "housing" as much as they are medical facilities. You could live in retirement villas or something like that though. If they turned you down even though you have proof of income, a good reference or basically nothing that says you would be a bad tenant, you would have a case in court for discrimination.

[freeweed]

Interesting. Like I said, I've never exactly challenged this, but always wondered.

[halifaxboyns]

[QUOTE=halifaxboyns;5068728]You are close - but it's not the MGA that would control this; it has to do with case law set in the supreme court related to the issue of 'seniors housing' and defining a family.
QUOTE]

I am pretty sure the MGA has some language around this. Earlier legal cases you mentioned are the reasons for the law, the MGA is just one of the legal documents where it is laid out. I would imagine all provinces have similar language in their planning legislation.

I had a quick flip through the MGA's planning section (Part 17) and there actually isn't any reference to senior's homes or family. The MGA has sections relating to both in regards to taxation, but nothing in the planning section. I don't believe the MGA touches the issue at all, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.