[MolsonExport]

More than one person has told me that the mayor/council are in cahoots with developers. Heck, didn't Gosnell consult on greenfield development for Walfart?

[manny_santos]

We need also to focus on redevelopment and intensification in and around the core. Seeing the sprawl that still goes on everywhere, it's cul-de-sacs, dead-ends and curvy roads that go nowhere.

Hope that can change, but London is still developing in the residential areas like it's 1970 still. Nothing in London that I've seen is anything modern along the lines with back lanes, a street grid system, etc.

Not going to happen as long as focus groups keep telling developers they like these suburban disasters ("I like my quiet cul-de-sac", "I like driving 15 minutes to get groceries", "I like having a big backyard and I don't have to see my neighbours"), and the City continues to lack the balls to say "no" to developers who keep wanting to build these expansive low-density residential areas with no nearby commercial or industrial development (i.e. most of Byron). And London is by no means the only municipality in North America with this problem.

Problem is, too many suburban Canadians don't know what is good for them. A major flaw of the otherwise positive system of democracy.

[Snark]

Bingo. We have a winner! This isn't a London issue. It's a North America issue. The prize of land ownership with a private single family dwelling is cultural and ingrained... and it's going to take a lot more than the sort of persuasion used mostly unsuccessfully to date to change that.

Actually, there is more to it than that.....

Legally, there is little to stop a landowner who owns land within a designated development zone from subdividing. A municipality may try to shape and time how that development turns out, but stopping it all together is pretty hard. Something about landowner's rights....

Which means that the case for conversion from greenfield development to brownfield/redevelopment must be shown to be economically advantageous to the developer. This will only happen if the home-buying consumer changes their mindset and decides on say a place in a high rise or townhouse in the inner city as opposed to the white picket fence in the 'burbs. In London, this has begun in earnest, starting with mostly empty nesters and single professionals migrating back to the inner city. That said, the family folks in that 30 to 50 age bracket still want the privacy, quiet, space, and dare I say perceived security of the 'burbs to raise their kids. The question is how to convince them that moving to the inner city is a better alternative.

Lastly, there is the economic model. What young family wants to rent if avoidable? If not rent, why would anyone want to try to raise a family in a 1,200 sq.ft. condo that costs $350,000 + fees + parking? For the same price, you get your own castle, a back yard, and no condo fees.

Until that changes, the 'burbs will keep growing.





Not going to happen as long as focus groups keep telling developers they like these suburban disasters ("I like my quiet cul-de-sac", "I like driving 15 minutes to get groceries", "I like having a big backyard and I don't have to see my neighbours"), and the City continues to lack the balls to say "no" to developers who keep wanting to build these expansive low-density residential areas with no nearby commercial or industrial development (i.e. most of Byron). And London is by no means the only municipality in North America with this problem.

Problem is, too many suburban Canadians don't know what is good for them. A major flaw of the otherwise positive system of democracy.

[go_leafs_go02]

How is the Wonderland upgrade going between Gainsborough and Fanshawe Park?

I haven't been in London since April, so I woul love to see some pictures or just information on it :)

[haljackey]

How is the Wonderland upgrade going between Gainsborough and Fanshawe Park?

I haven't been in London since April, so I woul love to see some pictures or just information on it :)

They've built a temporary crossing of the creek while work on the new 4 lane bridge commences.

Some pics from the COL:

http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Wonderland_SB_lane_sw_complete_july21.jpg

http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Wonderland_SB_lane_paved_facing_north_July21.jpg

http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Wonderland_traffic_diversion_july21.jpg



More info: http://www.london.ca/d.aspx?s=/Road_Construction/Construction_Administration/Wonderland_Widening_Info_Page.htm

Wonderland Road in it's entirety is a massive construction mess right now. There are 5 separate projects going along the road's length in London.
-Decker Drive to Highway 402: Road work / resurfacing
-Wonderland / Viscount intersection: Resurfacing
-Guy Lombardo Bridge: Rehabilitation
-Riverside to Oxford: Watermain replacement
-Gainsborough to Fanshawe Park: Widening / reconstruction

Insane eh? Guess you can blame stimulus funding for all the upgrades taking place at once.

[go_leafs_go02]

Looks like a gong-show, but that's normal for construction.

And yeah that rush to receive funding for the stimulus package is nuts. Same is going on in BC too.

[manny_santos]

Bingo. We have a winner! This isn't a London issue. It's a North America issue. The prize of land ownership with a private single family dwelling is cultural and ingrained... and it's going to take a lot more than the sort of persuasion used mostly unsuccessfully to date to change that.

(...)

Which means that the case for conversion from greenfield development to brownfield/redevelopment must be shown to be economically advantageous to the developer. This will only happen if the home-buying consumer changes their mindset and decides on say a place in a high rise or townhouse in the inner city as opposed to the white picket fence in the 'burbs. In London, this has begun in earnest, starting with mostly empty nesters and single professionals migrating back to the inner city. That said, the family folks in that 30 to 50 age bracket still want the privacy, quiet, space, and dare I say perceived security of the 'burbs to raise their kids. The question is how to convince them that moving to the inner city is a better alternative.

Excellent points raised. Suburb growth is undoubtedly going to continue, but I question the amount of land wastage with putting houses on huge properties. In London in particular, property taxes are now sky-high compared with other Canadian municipalities (apologies that I don't have exact numbers in front of me). For my parents for example who still live in a suburban area, the property taxes are increasingly becoming hard to afford. I'm hearing that from others in suburban London.

The point is, there is a financial argument in favour of smaller lots and more compact housing. Smaller properties mean less property taxes.

[go_leafs_go02]

Here's a map I posted in another thread suggesting a possible re-alignment of Hyde Park Road to divert around the village centre.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=104390991790431919848.00048e2f6cc5a83b2eff7

[manny_santos]

Here's a map I posted in another thread suggesting a possible re-alignment of Hyde Park Road to divert around the village centre.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=104390991790431919848.00048e2f6cc5a83b2eff7

Oddly enough there was a similar plan on the books back in the 1970s, except Hyde Park Road would have swong to the east of the village.

I'm not sure a bypass there is warranted. I'd rather see the road widened through the village centre so people can still go through the area. I personally like going through Hyde Park, allthough I don't like the traffic.

[haljackey]

I'm sad to see only one road widening is taking place this year, despite it being London's biggest road construction year to date.

Some major widenings/projects I would like to see London overtake over the next few years are listed below. Resurfacing projects, sewer, bike lane and sidewalk work and whatnot are not listed.

North/South

Colonel Talbot
-Widening: Highway 402 to Highway 401
-Widening: Southdale to Main Street/Longwoods

Hyde Park
-Widening: Fanshawe Park to Riverside. Can include bypass of Grainsbrough town centre.

Wonderland
-Highway 401 interchange
-Widening: Exeter to Highway 402
-Widening: Sunningdle to Fanshawe Park

Warncliffe / Western
-CN rail underpass north of Horton expanded from 3 to 5 lanes
-CP rail underpass north of Oxford expanded from 2 to 4 or 5 lanes
-Widening: Patt's Lane to Oxford
-Bus lane / BRT additional lane from Elgin to Sarnia

Richmond
-Widening: Fanshawe Park to Western (6 lanes)

Wellington
-6 continuous lanes from Base Line to Highway 401

Adelaide
-Widening: Sunningdle to Fanshawe Park

Highbury
-Replace Highway 401 interchange with a free-flowing design
-Add 2 ramps to the Commissioners interchange, increasing the interchange's capacity
-Widening: Sunningdle to Fanshawe Park

Clarke
-Widening: whole route 4 lanes from Fanshawe Park to Hamilton

VMP
-Replace Highway 401 interchange to allow for southward expansion, but keep it free-flowing
-Interchanges with Bradley and Hamilton
-Widening: Huron to Oxford, rail crossing grade separation.
-Extension: Clarke to Huron

East/West

Bradley
-Extension: Colonel Talbot to White Oak
-Widening: White Oak to Jalna
-Widening: Wellington to Adelaide or as far as Highbury or VMP

Southdale
-Widening: Wonderland to Warncliffe (or as far as Colonel Talbot)
-Widening: Wellington to Adelaide

Commissioners
-Widening: Wonderland to Viscount (or as far as Boler)
-Widening: Wellington to Adelaide (6 lanes to handle Adelaide discontinuation through the Westminister Ponds)

Hamilton
-Widening: Commissioners to VMP (or as far as Highbury)

King
-Extension: New bridge link from Warnclife/Riverside/Dundas junction, similar to the Queens link up.

Oxford
-Widening: Commissioners to Hyde Park
-Widening: VMP to London Airport

Sarnia
-Widening: Hyde Park to Sleightome, including CP overpass replacement
-Extension: New Bridge link from Phillip Aziz to Huron

Huron
-Link: Maitland to William
-Widening: Highbury to VMP

Windermere
-Link: Adelaide to Kilally

Fanshawe Park
-Widening: 6 lanes in Masonville Commercial Area (so around Richmond)
-Widening: Adelaide to Highbury

Sunningdale
-Widening: Wonderland to Highbury


If I missed something let me know! This is just for roads only, not transit.

[go_leafs_go02]

Thats a huge list - likely will take 10-20 years to complete the majority of that.

[quentin0]

i hope the city wins at least 50 powerball lotteries in order to finance all of that!

there are some projects on that list with an immediate need, but for most of it, there is no current traffic volume to justify it unfortunately.

[manny_santos]

I would say the majority of the projects listed are important, but some naturally are more important than others. I don't think Colonel Talbot Road needs widening.

The highest priorities, from that list, are Hyde Park (although I question the need for a bypass of the village), Wharncliffe/Western, Commissioners, and Southdale.

[MolsonExport]

I'd forgo much of the list to see one light-rail from White Oaks through downtown and UWO to Masonville. A second line along Oxford from Fanshawe College in the East (intersecting downtown, perhaps at some underground station deep below Richmond & Dundas) to the world-famous London Mall in the West. Then, the cherry on top: HSR from Windsor to Quebec City.

[haljackey]

I'd forgo much of the list to see one light-rail from White Oaks through downtown and UWO to Masonville. A second line along Oxford from Fanshawe College in the East (intersecting downtown, perhaps at some underground station deep below Richmond & Dundas) to the world-famous London Mall in the West. Then, the cherry on top: HSR from Windsor to Quebec City.

Well unfortunately the city has no intention to plan light rail for at least 20 years... at least according to the Smartmoves site / 2030 transportation master plan.

I'd give anything to see that too, especially a High Speed Rail line in our province. Imagine zipping to downtown Toronto in about an hour.
-As I've said before, if we don't start construction by the end of the decade, our economy is screwed.

[Kokkei Mizu]

I think the free-flowing interchange for Highbury Ave. is an awesome idea but at the same time it may be a bad thing. The stop lights are probably good for southbound traffic. Because they have to slow down from 100 km/h to 80 km/h, and having a free-flowing interchange will allow them to continue safely at 100 km/h. Which is good, but once they get over the hill they'll encounter trucks doing wide left turns into and out of the Flying J. Seems like an accident waiting to happen.

[haljackey]

Here's a pic I took of Lambeth from the Highway 4 / 402 interchange.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Highway4Lambeth.JPG/1200px-Highway4Lambeth.JPG

And here's two from the city showing the Wonderland widening developments:
http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Wonderland_Widening_northbound_Sept01.jpg

http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Wonderland_Widening_Diversion_Sept01.jpg

[MolsonExport]

^good shots. I take Wonderland North all the time (live in Hyde Park)

[haljackey]

Took a DSLR for a spin yesterday. It was a rainy day but I did manage to get 6 good pictures of the 401 in London. Remember that Highbury Avenue and the Veterans Memorial Parkway are expressways. Thus, I can't get shots from those overpasses because there is no pedestrian access.

Highway 401 looking west towards the Highway 402 interchange from Wellington Road.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Highway_401_from_Wellington_Road_in_London%2C_looking_east_2.jpg/1200px-Highway_401_from_Wellington_Road_in_London%2C_looking_east_2.jpg

A rare photograph showing the Highway 401 / Highway 402 interchange. Taken from the Digman Drive overpass, which was under repairs at the time this photo was taken (hence the construction pylons and signs). The overpass doesn't have a sidewalk, so the only time I could take photos without the fear of being hit by cars was during this brief timeframe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/Highway_401-Highway_402_interchange.jpg/1200px-Highway_401-Highway_402_interchange.jpg

This photograph shows Highway 401 just west of the Highway 402 interchange, where the highway narrows from six to four lanes. T
-Also note the reverse colours of the asphalt. The newer asphalt switches from the inside to the outside while the older asphalt switches from the outside to the inside.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Highway_401_narrows.JPG/1200px-Highway_401_narrows.JPG

Zoomed in version of the last picture.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Reverse_colours.JPG/1200px-Reverse_colours.JPG

Highway 401 in west London. This section of the highway is planned to be widened to six lanes sometime in the future and will include a new interchange with Wonderland Road.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Highway_401_West_London.JPG/1200px-Highway_401_West_London.JPG

One more shot of Highway 401 west of the 402.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Highway_401_west_of_Highway_402.jpg/1200px-Highway_401_west_of_Highway_402.jpg

Full size versions of these pictures can be found on the Highway 401 page in the Wikimedia commons. Link:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Highway_401_%28Ontario%29

[haljackey]

More shots from me:

Highway 402 seen from the Highway 4 overpass, looking east:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Highway_402_from_Highway_4_1.JPG/1200px-Highway_402_from_Highway_4_1.JPG

And west:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Highway_402_from_Highway_4_2.JPG/1200px-Highway_402_from_Highway_4_2.JPG

The Highbury Avenue expressway seen from the Commissioners Road overpass, looking north.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Highbury_avenue_construction.JPG/1200px-Highbury_avenue_construction.JPG

With these photos, I'm pretty much done visually documenting the highway system in London. Hope you enjoyed them!

[MolsonExport]

great shots.

[haljackey]

great shots.

Thanks. It feels kinda weird walking across a highway overpass with a big camera strapped around your neck... people look at you funny. But in the end I think the shots were worth it.

I originally started to take the pictures to help out the Highway 401 article on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_401), but now I'm taking shots of everything lol.

[ldoto]

For the first time London didn't crack the top 20 of the worst roads in Ontario.

The annual run-down released by CAA is now in it's 8th year, and Toronto dominates this year's list.

The six-week campaign by CAA North & East Ontario encouraged motorists to voice their concerns for crumbling infrastructure in their respective communities.

"I found it very satisfying," said Dave Leckie, Director of Roads and Transportation with the City of London, Dave Leckie.

"It's proof that the actions we've been planning over the years and delivering, are paying off."

The new worst road in the province, according to the CAA survey is Pelican Falls Road which is located in Sioux Lookout.

It's not all good news for London, however. For the first time the CAA also listed the 20 Best roads in Ontario.

London did not crack that list either.

[haljackey]

You know, I gotta hand it to London. They did a good job fixing up the roads this year. Although a lot of it was stimulus funding, many long term reconstructions have taken place, especially fixing up various overpasses throughout the city.

I was a little sad to see that Wonderland Road North was the only widening project this year despite the excess funding. With the other projects out of the way this year, we can focus more on widenings over the next few years.

I'd say Southdale and Commissioners are the ones that need widening the most with all that excess traffic coming from Byron. Oxford could also easily be widened when the time comes Hyde Park can get 4 lanes. Fanshawe Park could use 4-laning to Highbury and Wellington should be a continuous 6 lane facility from the 401 to Base Line. And then there's the complicated process of making Warnfliffe/Westen 4 lanes the whole way through.

...And of course, construction of the Wonderland/401 interchange is paramount. But that probably won't happen until the MTO says so.

[Simpseatles]

You know, I gotta hand it to London. They did a good job fixing up the roads this year. Although a lot of it was stimulus funding, many long term reconstructions have taken place, especially fixing up various overpasses throughout the city.

I was a little sad to see that Wonderland Road North was the only widening project this year despite the excess funding. With the other projects out of the way this year, we can focus more on widenings over the next few years.

I'd say Southdale and Commissioners are the ones that need widening the most with all that excess traffic coming from Byron. Oxford could also easily be widened when the time comes Hyde Park can get 4 lanes. Fanshawe Park could use 4-laning to Highbury and Wellington should be a continuous 6 lane facility from the 401 to Base Line. And then there's the complicated process of making Warnfliffe/Westen 4 lanes the whole way through.

...And of course, construction of the Wonderland/401 interchange is paramount. But that probably won't happen until the MTO says so.

:previous: I agree, all of these projects are greatly needed. Especially the Southdale road widening. It, like Sunningdale, isn't a country road anymore, and now that development has sprawled onto both sides it badly needs widening to Colonel Talbot. Same goes for Hyde Park with that new "Smart Centre."

Also, I think VMP needs interchanges with Hamilton, and Bradley soon, as the traffic on it has increased. It also needs to finally be extended to meet up with Clarke road. I mean, I've seen that on the drawing boards for 10 years now!

I really think Bradley should be extended to Wonderland and line up with Pack rd, and I believe thats the plan with SWAP.

[haljackey]

That post was to identify widening.

If you're talking about new roads and extensions, Bradley is #1 on my list. Getting it to Colonel Talbot would really improve traffic flow and distribution in southwest London. It will probably be built in sections to Warncliffe, Wonderland and eventually to Talbot.

The MTO has approved an interchange with the VMP and Hamilton, but they say that Bradley is too close to the Hamilton and 401 interchanges and a junction here would cause weaving and safety concerns. The city has proposed a half-clover for Bradley but that would probably make Hamilton a half-clover as well. I think Hamilton needs a parclo A-4 interchange because volumes on it are expected to increase significantly as Jackson grows.

The VMP should be extended to Clark at-grade as soon as possible. Eventually though I want to see a flyover from NB Clark to NB VMP similar to the the 401/402 interchange where EB 402 flies over EB 401. Clark should be upgraded to expressway or freeway status from the VMP to Fanshawe Park road.

Work on a VMP-like (expressway-class) road on the west side of London should also start soon. Interchanges from the 401/402 to Oxford would be awesome, but getting it to Grainsbourgh or Egremont/Fanshawe would be preferred.

Also I think a busway should be built along one of the rail corridors. This would make the LTC more efficient crosstown.

[MolsonExport]

Hyde Park is absolutely retarded. The road is completely backed up during rush hour, and even worse on weekends. Yet, the development continues unabated, from the Dumbcentre, to the new condo tower(s), to the subdivisions....the volume is just too great for the road. This is pretty simple to project.

[manny_santos]

ThatAlso I think a busway should be built along one of the rail corridors. This would make the LTC more efficient crosstown.

I'd like to see that too, but CP Rail plans to add a second rail line alongside their existing line through London - this was brought up as an argument why the old Sarnia Road bridge can't be kept as a pedestrian bridge after the new bridge is built.

At the same time, expanding the right-of-way for CP Rail might be an opportunity for the building of a busway or even a third rail line dedicated to passenger transit. Regardless of how far the expansion is, building demolitions, bridge replacements, and road overhead expansion will be inevitable. The corridor is ideal for a service crossing the city with service to the airport, and it can be configured to service the south half of the city and St. Thomas through a link with the L&PS. Theoretically the network could link to Woodstock, Tillsonburg, Aylmer, and Strathroy (using the CN line from Komoka).

This would also be an ideal opportunity for CP to raise the elevation of their right-of-way through the west half of the city and through downtown, allowing for subway grade separations on Richmond and Adelaide Streets, and to make the existing subway on Oxford higher.

[go_leafs_go02]

I'd like to see that too, but CP Rail plans to add a second rail line alongside their existing line through London - this was brought up as an argument why the old Sarnia Road bridge can't be kept as a pedestrian bridge after the new bridge is built.

At the same time, expanding the right-of-way for CP Rail might be an opportunity for the building of a busway or even a third rail line dedicated to passenger transit. Regardless of how far the expansion is, building demolitions, bridge replacements, and road overhead expansion will be inevitable. The corridor is ideal for a service crossing the city with service to the airport, and it can be configured to service the south half of the city and St. Thomas through a link with the L&PS. Theoretically the network could link to Woodstock, Tillsonburg, Aylmer, and Strathroy (using the CN line from Komoka).

This would also be an ideal opportunity for CP to raise the elevation of their right-of-way through the west half of the city and through downtown, allowing for subway grade separations on Richmond and Adelaide Streets, and to make the existing subway on Oxford higher.

I'm surprised CP would want to widen their railway through London. they already have to slow down considerably, and there's ample room North of London to divert around it. You'd think London may make concessions to have it go north of the City, however I do know that's out of the City Limits per say.

CN it is crucial to keep going through the City with VIA rail service, however CP should be given the squeeze to see if they can re-route their lines around the city.

[haljackey]

That would involve building a completely new corridor, which is considerably more expensive to build. Also, what will become of the rail yards and industrial connections on the CP line?

Although this is the best long-term scenario, I am in considerable doubt it will ever happen. Adding a second line through the existing corridor is much cheaper. Some of the overpasses and such are aging anyway so upgrading/replacing them with new ones would work wonders for under-passing roads like Warncliffe. If the new overpass allowed Warncliffe to pass under it with 4-5 lanes you could see the 2 lane sections of Western and Warncliffe finally get widened.


Hyde park is a joke. Get that sucker to 4 lanes especially around Oxford and widen Sarnia while you're at it. I'd say the city should make Sarnia 4 lanes all the way to Western to put pressure on CP to contribute funds to replace that joke of an overpass.

[manny_santos]

Hyde park is a joke. Get that sucker to 4 lanes especially around Oxford and widen Sarnia while you're at it. I'd say the city should make Sarnia 4 lanes all the way to Western to put pressure on CP to contribute funds to replace that joke of an overpass.

I'm looking forward to when the Wonderland widening north of Gainsborough is complete. I won't have to use Hyde Park anymore when I go up to Masonville. I went up there yesterday and it was backed up all the way from Fanshawe Park to past Sarnia Road.

[haljackey]

The VMP was closed yesterday between Bradley and the 401 for 8 hours for a flag-raising salute to all Canadian Veterans. This made traffic on Highbury and Wellington horrible all day.

While I'm in full support of our veterans, I question the need to hold this event for 8 hours, especially during the Friday afternoon rush hour.

Rationale from the city:
The rough terrain made it impossible to hold the event anywhere other than on the actual VMP. We wanted to make sure this event was accessible to all of our Veterans, many of whom could not have walked the slippery, uneven ground west of the flag feature.

We considered every option before deciding on closing the VMP, and although we realized the closure would inconvenience motorists by requiring them to detour, we hoped that most people would understand and be accomodating, as we hosted our Veterans at this flag-raising event in their honour.

Speaking of the VMP, I have been doing some major editing to it's Wikipedia article. Check it out here if you're interested. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Memorial_Parkway)
-Still need some better references and pictures for it but the thing looks a lot better than it used to. :P

[Simpseatles]

The VMP was closed yesterday between Bradley and the 401 for 8 hours for a flag-raising salute to all Canadian Veterans. This made traffic on Highbury and Wellington horrible all day.

While I'm in full support of our veterans, I question the need to hold this event for 8 hours, especially during the Friday afternoon rush hour.

Rationale from the city:
The rough terrain made it impossible to hold the event anywhere other than on the actual VMP. We wanted to make sure this event was accessible to all of our Veterans, many of whom could not have walked the slippery, uneven ground west of the flag feature.

We considered every option before deciding on closing the VMP, and although we realized the closure would inconvenience motorists by requiring them to detour, we hoped that most people would understand and be accomodating, as we hosted our Veterans at this flag-raising event in their honour.

Speaking of the VMP, I have been doing some major editing to it's Wikipedia article. Check it out here if you're interested. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Memorial_Parkway)
-Still need some better references and pictures for it but the thing looks a lot better than it used to. :P

^ That's great that they wanted to do something for the veterans. The flagpole is pretty impressive. Maybe there really wasn't any other possibility, but why the city decided to turn a major industrial link into a "parkway" is what I don't understand. To me, it seems counter productive.

I'm all for grass, trees, and monuments, but to close it for 8 hours in unacceptable. It's our largest industrial gateway. I guess the city wanted to rename it that because of its importance. But now it has a prestigious reputation to live up to, and I've heard a lot of complaints about overgrown weeds.

In my opinion, they should have renamed Wonderland Veterans Memorial Way, or something. They could have put up a flagpole by the Thames, near Riverside, and put up some munuments there. At least it actually goes through a park, and some residential areas, and isn't way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, by some ugly new industrial buildings, where you can hear the 401 whizzing by. Ya, I'm sure that's a very enjoyable place for a ceremony.

[haljackey]

This province has gone nuts with naming roads for our soldiers... so much so that these dedications have lost their appeal.

Highway of Heroes- Highway 401 between Highway 404/Don Valley Parkway to Trenton

Route of Heroes- Don Valley Parkway between Bloor Street and Highway 401

Veterans Memorial Highway- Highway 416 for it's entire length

Veterans Memorial Parkway- The former Highway 100/Airport Road for it's entire length

...And I'm sure I'm leaving out designations for other cities and minor roads. This is overkill in my opinion. No offense to our veterans, but politicians are just using them to make themselves look caring and compassionate and whatnot...

[haljackey]

Interesting article from the Saturday Free Press:

Ring road around London still a dream

KITCHENER - During a public debate last month between the two candidates for the Regional Municipality of Waterloo's top elected office, the incumbent chair, Ken Seiling, launched into a vigorous defence of a proposed light-rail transit system that would run from the north of Waterloo to the south of Kitchener. It's a project he supports.

"Can anyone imagine K-W today without the (Conestoga) expressway?" Seiling asked - his point not lost on anyone in the room. He went on to argue that the same type of long-term thinking that, four decades ago, sparked construction of the essential freeway will be needed to build an LRT system in the decade ahead. And Waterloo Region residents ought not to shirk the moment of opportunity.

Seiling went on to assert that the expressway, which loops from southwest Kitchener to north Waterloo, has been the single biggest catalyst in the economic development of the twin cities - and, by extension, the Region of Waterloo.

Without that vital artery, he implied, access to the universities and industrial nodes in the north would have been restricted and developments such as the giant RIM Park might never have happened.

The veteran politician got not a word of argument on this point from anyone in the audience, nor from his electoral opponent, Robert Milligan. In Waterloo Region, the crucial importance of the freeway to regional economic development is already conventional wisdom, even among many environmentalists and supporters of alternative modes of transportation.

The only quibbles that occasionally bubble to the surface here have to do with the fact that the "ring" was never finished, due to lobbying by powerful landowner interests - a fact some residents now think was the only political mistake in an otherwise important and successful project.

London has had its own long and rather tortured history with the concept of a "ring road" around the city. It fumbled its golden opportunity in the early 1970s to have the province shoulder half the cost of such a project by approving the construction of Hwy. 402 across the city's north. Influential landowners were successful in bending the proposed highway's route around the south of the city past Lambeth.

Since then, city politicians have tried a few times to revive the ring-road concept (and demurred even more often), but were twice foiled by the Ontario Municipal Board. Negotiations with Middlesex Centre and Middlesex County a decade ago about a northern right-of-way went nowhere.

Over the past few years, the discussion has shifted from ring road to the notion of a possible U-road, says Dave Leckie, London's director of roads and transportation. City staff are testing that concept - as well as many others related to transportation corridors and development intensification - through an update to the transportation master plan, which they've dubbed Smart Moves. There's a website that invites citizen involvement (www.london.ca/smartmoves) and a third public workshop on the issue is planned for Dec. 7.

An effective vision takes guts and requires calculated risks. Back in Waterloo Region, residents are being reminded of their generational responsibility to think big and to think long term.

At a seminar earlier this week, Joe Berridge, a partner at Toronto-based planning and urban design firm Urban Strategies, told his audience it's time to imagine K-W as an ethnically diverse, dense and busy mini-metropolis that will likely reach more than 700,000 people within the next 20 years. Different modes of living and travel won't be options; they'll be necessities, he said, adding that Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge will inevitably resemble one big city.

Coming to terms with those realities now - and taking the important first steps - is "an investment in the next generation," Berridge said.

It's interesting to note that, during the election campaign just passed, taxation in the Waterloo Region wasn't the consuming issue it was in London. Voters were interested in trying to keep the rate of tax hikes to the rate of inflation, but the "vision" issues dominated.

And it hasn't stopped. One of the first priorities of the new regional council and its staff is continuing that re-imaging process through online citizen input and a series of face-to-face public consultations.

And with all that focus on a long-term vision, it just so happens that Seiling, as well as the mayors of Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge, were all re-elected - bucking what was a bit of a provincial trend toward dumping incumbents.

Coincidence? Perhaps not.

http://www.lfpress.com/comment/columnists/larry_cornies/2010/11/05/15989576.html

[ForestryW]

While I agree that London has always been a backwards-looking, stagnant community that consistently fails at prioritizing any sort of long-term planning agenda, I'm actually glad the city doesn't have a ring road.

K-W grew up around the Parkway, which is why it sprawls as much as it does, and doesn't have a large or defineable downtown (Kitchener does, of course, but not nearly to the extent of London). London by contrast has been able to focus more energy on downtown revitalization and has a more vibrant core than K-W will have for a very long time.

[Simpseatles]

While I agree that London has always been a backwards-looking, stagnant community that consistently fails at prioritizing any sort of long-term planning agenda, I'm actually glad the city doesn't have a ring road.

K-W grew up around the Parkway, which is why it sprawls as much as it does, and doesn't have a large or defineable downtown (Kitchener does, of course, but not nearly to the extent of London). London by contrast has been able to focus more energy on downtown revitalization and has a more vibrant core than K-W will have for a very long time.

^London sprawls like crazy, and the road system never gets improved to handle all of it. There's all these recent developments that just branch off of main roads and then go nowhere, or maybe connect with some old country road. At least K-W's sprawl is better connected with roads and highways.

[haljackey]

While I agree that London has always been a backwards-looking, stagnant community that consistently fails at prioritizing any sort of long-term planning agenda, I'm actually glad the city doesn't have a ring road.

K-W grew up around the Parkway, which is why it sprawls as much as it does, and doesn't have a large or defineable downtown (Kitchener does, of course, but not nearly to the extent of London). London by contrast has been able to focus more energy on downtown revitalization and has a more vibrant core than K-W will have for a very long time.

I completely agree, a ring road wouldn't help London, but any sort of network built will aid the city's transportation system quite well.

By the way, Kitchener and Waterloo are two separate cities, which are both smaller than London. That's the main reason why that region doesn't have a downtown as large or as dense as London.

Regarding sprawl, you can't really argue that freeways encourage them because all you have to do is just look at London. At least with a freeway network sprawl would be slightly more organized along these routes rather than become a big clump of a mess we have in London.


EDIT: By the way I went to Toronto/GTA today and noticed that the 401's 6 lane widening between Woodstock and Cambridge is nearly complete. I think it should be fully open by the end of the month or sooner! That makes the 401 6 lanes all they way from Highway 402 in London to Highway 410 in Mississauga, where as we all know it gets even wider.

[haljackey]

I don't get why there's so much public opposition to roundabouts. Let's break down the plus and minuses of such a automotive transportation intersection design.

Pluses:
1. Capacity is roughly 2x higher than a standard "box" intersection
2. Roundabouts are about 2.5x more efficient at getting cars through the junction compared to the standard box.
3. Less wear an tear on cars. Breaking is minimized and more controlled. Cars are rarely stopped.
4. Better for the environment. Since cars aren't accelerating from a dead stop (most of the time) there's less momentum needed thus less fuel needed to burn. In addition you don't need power for traffic lights or as much conventional street lighting
5. The centre of the roundabout is public space owned by the government in the right of way. This can be decorated or landscaped to make the drive more pleasant for drivers. Streetcar or light rail lines can also run through the centre of the roundabout.
6. More transit-friendly. Bus stops and whatnot can easily be placed near the entrances and exits of the roundabouts. Everything goes counterclockwise so buses have an easier time turning. (This also applies to heavy trucks)
7. More pedestrian-friendly. Much more potential areas for crosswalks to be made. This means if someone wants to cross diagonally they can by crossing in the middle and out to the opposite corner. Traffic has to pay attention to their surroundings so they will notice pedestrians easier and traffic also flowing slower so if pedestrians are struck, they are struck at a generally lower speed, thus not as serious.
8. Cheaper maintenance costs. No traffic lights, or wiring to replace.

Minuses:
1. Slightly more expensive to construct.
2. More potential impact points for collisions (but collisions that do happen here are generally more minor than box junctions since cars travel at a generally lower speed)
3. They take up more room than standard box junctions.
4. For multilane roundabouts, several different designs can be used which can be confusing for motorists
5. Weaving can become a problem when these junctions are heavily used, but is not nearly as bad as a cloverleaf interchange. Google that one if you don't know how it works.

Or I'll just link ya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloverleaf_interchange

Anyways there's my brief break down of roundabouts vs regular intersections. In my opinion, roundabouts win hands down. It's sad we don't see more of them here, a city named after London, England, which has more roundabouts than any city on the planet.

[Simpseatles]

^I agree with you haljackey!

That post reminded me of a European person I know, who complains a lot when driving around London, pointing out perfect locations for roundabouts.:haha:

Traffic circles should be implemented more here, but the Hale-Trafalgar overpass is a huge step forward.

Somehow they add a more progressive and pleasant feel to a city, especially out in the suburbs.

[haljackey]

Traffic circles should be implemented more here, but the Hale-Trafalgar overpass is a huge step forward.

Somehow they add a more progressive and pleasant feel to a city, especially out in the suburbs.

Waterloo Region now has 13 roundabouts, and plans to more than double that number in the coming years.

There are some locations in London where roundabouts would work really well and wouldn't eat up a lot of land.

The city has already examined putting a roundabout at the Commissioners/Hamilton/Old Victoria Road intersection and prospected the idea of converting the Wonderland/Warncliffe/Exeter triangle into a large rotary/traffic circle.

Roundabouts work best where you have a lot of turning traffic, because there's no oncoming traffic to stop these movements.
-If one or two of the gas stations were removed, the Wonderland/Oxford intersection would make a great roundabout because there's a ton of traffic turning here.
-Of course there are dozens of other locations in the city where they can work...

A vision of mine would see our city's busiest intersection: Wellington at Commissioners, turned into a roundabout.
-Wellington itself would have to curve a bit to the east, taking up some of the hospital lands of Victoria and Packwood in order to get a proper roundabout to fit. A huge 3 or 4 lane junction could then be added, easing traffic congestion considerably. All those traffic cues on Commissioners and the long red lights on Wellington could be eliminated.

Here's a really rough vision of what it could look like:
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/443/clipboard02ll.jpg

For optimal flow, some of the lanes in the roundabout would end, not continue the whole way in the circle. Example:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Turbo_Roundabout.svg/600px-Turbo_Roundabout.svg.png

(just add more lanes to that. :P )

[go_leafs_go02]

Baby steps. Baby steps.

Turning the busiest intersection into a 3 lane roundabout would be a disaster.

Motorists have NO clue how to use them. Start on low collectors, and then move up to 2 lanes over time. Plopping one down with little or no driver experience would be a nightmare for accidents and congestion. You just need a few drivers to freak out, and they'll just park there waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

[haljackey]

Baby steps. Baby steps.

Turning the busiest intersection into a 3 lane roundabout would be a disaster.

Motorists have NO clue how to use them. Start on low collectors, and then move up to 2 lanes over time. Plopping one down with little or no driver experience would be a nightmare for accidents and congestion. You just need a few drivers to freak out, and they'll just park there waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

lol

Of course, of course. Just showing what could be with time. Roundabouts actually work best with a 1 lane circle anyway, because they're easy to use, have no lane switching and thus no weaving.

Once day though maybe we'll take after the example Waterloo Region has set, not to mention all the other cities around the world that already have them in place.

[Simpseatles]

Wow! There are 13 traffic Circles in the Waterloo Region. I knew there were some, but I wasn't gonna bring it up because then I would just get on a rant about how much they are beating London in almost every aspect!:jester:

Looks like an ambitious plan! But I like to see these creative ideas.

[bolognium]

Cambridge replaced an intersection with a roundabout close to my old apartment in Preston. It was there when I first visited the area 4 years ago, but still doesn't show up on Google Maps.

http://i52.tinypic.com/am8gih.png

It's actually a fairly nice roundabout too. It has a very nice circular garden in the centre and pedestrian crossings on all sides to service the nearby trails. The intersection is relatively busy and handles a lot of turning vehicles like haljackey mentioned. Fountain Street heads East to downtown Preston while Blair Road heads South to downtown Galt; both major centres in Cambridge.

I've biked, bused and been driven through this roundabout hundreds of times and I've never seen any traffic hiccups. I've never experienced a major arterial roundabout, but I love how smoothly these smaller roundabouts can flow.

Roundabouts are definitely another leaf London could take out of KW's book.

[haljackey]

It's actually a fairly nice roundabout too. It has a very nice circular garden in the centre and pedestrian crossings on all sides to service the nearby trails.

After doing a quick search, I found a picture of that roundabout:
http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/roundabout_Fountain_Blair.jpg
(From the Region of Waterloo)

Pictures of the 13 roundabouts in Waterloo Region can be found here: http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/roundabouts_waterloo2.html

Imagine what could be in the L-dot...

[Pimpmasterdac]

A good feature that London is finally doing is having a countdown signal underneath pedestrian signals.

I've seen them in Toronto and there good for both pedestrians and drivers. I don't mind having to wait at a red light, as it allows us to know whether we can make the light or not.

There at Wharncliffe & Commissioners, and Oxford & Wonderland so far, hopefully there put at more intersections ASAP!

[haljackey]

A good feature that London is finally doing is having a countdown signal underneath pedestrian signals.

There at Wharncliffe & Commissioners, and Oxford & Wonderland so far, hopefully there put at more intersections ASAP!

It won't be ASAP I can guarantee you that, but as intersections are fixed up I'd assume more of these would be added.

[Simpseatles]

Cambridge replaced an intersection with a roundabout close to my old apartment in Preston. It was there when I first visited the area 4 years ago, but still doesn't show up on Google Maps.

http://i52.tinypic.com/am8gih.png

It's actually a fairly nice roundabout too. It has a very nice circular garden in the centre and pedestrian crossings on all sides to service the nearby trails. The intersection is relatively busy and handles a lot of turning vehicles like haljackey mentioned. Fountain Street heads East to downtown Preston while Blair Road heads South to downtown Galt; both major centres in Cambridge.

I've biked, bused and been driven through this roundabout hundreds of times and I've never seen any traffic hiccups. I've never experienced a major arterial roundabout, but I love how smoothly these smaller roundabouts can flow.

Roundabouts are definitely another leaf London could take out of KW's book.

^I'm assuming that, since this shot is old, that area is now built up with subdivisions, and when traffic increased, they built a roundabout rather than upgrade it with a traffic light.

This could potentially be utilized in some of London's crumbling, urban/rural fringe intersections like Hamilton and Commisioners, Col. Talbot and Southdale, and many intersections along Sunningdale.

[haljackey]

Here's an interesting article from the London Free Press on Saturday. You might enjoy the read:

City roads lack planning

I have a question for our city mothers and fathers and our “best of the best” city managers.

Why is it that most cities where I have travelled build major roads with two lanes in each direction, right and left turn lanes at intersections, and cutouts for bus stops? They also make sure sewers are installed and curbs, gutters and street lights are properly placed.

Then they allow subdivisions to be built.

In comparison, London allows subdivisions to be built and then decides to widen the roads. They have to tear up all the sewers, curbs, gutters and streetlights and then re-do everything. This has to cost far more in the long run than doing things properly in the first place.

A good example of this is currently on Southdale Rd. between Wharncliffe and Colonel Talbot roads.

We seem to plan for the present and build for the past.

Barry Brownlee

London


I like his example of Southdale Road. Counciler Paul Van Meerbergen calls that road a "cow path" and I have to agree with him. At least widen that road between Warncliffe and Wonderland for the time being... then focus on the Colonel Talbot section afterward.

Then again Barry (the author) is pretty much describing your average arterial in suburbia, not really the most original concept... But it beats what we currently have lol! :haha:

[MolsonExport]

Epitomizes what is ass-backwards. I know that developers contribute greatly to city coffers. But it must be far more expensive to upgrade roads (not to mention, more time consuming) when the traffic volume is double/triple etc. There doesn't seem to be any consideration of LTC busses effects on piling up traffic. Those things curb every 100 metres, effectively blocking a lane for minutes at a time.

[manny_santos]

Then again Barry (the author) is pretty much describing your average arterial in suburbia, not really the most original concept... But it beats what we currently have lol! :haha:

I know for a fact former Councillor Sandy Levin was a proponent of building roads and waiting to widen them until they were at or beyond capacity. That's how we ended up with a two-lane Oxford West extension; back in the mid-90s the City had intentions of a six-lane extension.

The development of Wonderland Road South is an interesting case study on this practice in London. Around 1970 the City widened Wonderland to four lanes from Commissioners to what became Viscount Road, and built a two-lane diversion south to Southdale, then at the southern limits of the city, to meet up with what was then (Lambeth) Airport Road. Around 1982 Middlesex County widened their part of Wonderland Road to four lanes from Southdale to Highway 135. London left Wonderland with a short two-lane section until about 1988 between Viscount and Southdale - almost 20 years after Westmount first developed.

(I researched this previously using City of London documents and aerial photos at the UWO Map Library)

[haljackey]

I was driving on Wonderland this morning and noticed a new intersection being built between Southdale and Warncliffe. I thought it was just going to be another unnamed road that provides access to the crapload of big boxes there but it actually had a street name... Bradley Avenue.

It's just a tad to the south of where the Angelo's Bakery was.. and it looks like its going to be built to the side of the new Toys R Us. Perhaps the missing links will get filled soon?

[Simpseatles]

I was driving on Wonderland this morning and noticed a new intersection being built between Southdale and Warncliffe. I thought it was just going to be another unnamed road that provides access to the crapload of big boxes there but it actually had a street name... Bradley Avenue.

It's just a tad to the south of where the Angelo's Bakery was.. and it looks like its going to be built to the side of the new Toys R Us. Perhaps the missing links will get filled soon?

^My understanding is that the new subdivision being built behind the Power Centre, is building it's section of the road to link up with Wharncliffe. According to the cities map, it goes from Wharncliffe then goes west intersecting with a road into the subdivision, but ends before Wonderland. I goues it is going link up with Wonderland,but it still won't link up with where it ends in the east.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Bradley built in sections, with the extension from White Oak Road being built simmilarily by the subdivision.

It's gonna be great when it's done though, and with all the industrial development in the East, the residential in the West, I can see it becoming an important road, hopefully easing some traffic off of Southdale.

Speaking of that new power centre by Southdale/Wonderland, I heard that a couple more stores(ToysRus, HomeSense) moved out there, that used to be located between White Oaks Mall and the Wellington 8. It kinda grinds my gears, since now there's 2 huge stores that are gonna be vacant on our main gateway off the 401. Their location there made much more sense since they were by the mall and close to the highway. I guess since the buildings weren't brand new, or monstrously large, they decided to move?:koko:

[haljackey]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Bradley built in sections, with the extension from White Oak Road being built simmilarily by the subdivision.

It's gonna be great when it's done though, and with all the industrial development in the East, the residential in the West, I can see it becoming an important road, hopefully easing some traffic off of Southdale.

The problem with Bradley, or roads in general, being built in sections is that their true potential is not utilized until the route is complete. In Bradley's case, this means people who use the stub near Warncliffe have to get onto other roads before getting back to Bradley. This puts pressure on the other roads and seriously impacts the efficiency of the network. While having it built in section is better than nothing, but take a look at the Free Press article posted above, our city seems to do too little too late. This is considerably frustrating in areas of the city that can grow but don't because the roads are already too congested.

Southwest London is going to grow like a weed once land in the north is consumed, and it has to be ready. By building/widening roads after growth has come, you'll create far more headaches at a far greater expense than if you were plan and anticipate that growth beforehand. The Southwest Area Plan has some good ideas, but I fear the completion of these projects will come much later than originally thought, and not all of them will be done.

For the short term this is what I think should be done.
-Southdale widened to 4 lanes between Warncliffe and Wonderland
-Bradley built between White Oak and Wonderland
-Wonderland Road / Highway 401 interchange

Mid term:
-Southdale widened to 4 lanes between Wonderland and Colonel Talbot
-Bradley built between Wonderland and Colonel Talbot
-Bradley widened to 4 lanes between Jalna and Wonderland
-Wonderland widened to 4 lanes between Exeter and Highway 402
-Wonderland Road / Highway 402 interchange expanded from Parclo A2 to A4.

Long term:
-Southdale widened to 6 lanes from Wonderland eastward
-Bradley built between Colonel Talbot and Westdel or proposed western expressway
-Bradley widened from Wonderland westward as needed
-Wonderland widened to 4 lanes from Highway 402 to Highway 401
-Wonderland widened to 6 lanes from Exeter northward
-Reconfigured intersections between Wonderland, Warncliffe and Exeter, potentially to a large rotary or traffic circle.
-White Oak and Digman widened as needed
-Potential partial interchanges on White Oak with the 401 and 402 would help relieve traffic on the Wellington and Wonderland junctions.

...Not to mention all the other road/infrastructure projects that also need to get completed like a new pumping station to serve the south end.



Now to get a bit off topic regarding big boxes on Wonderland:


Speaking of that new power centre by Southdale/Wonderland, I heard that a couple more stores(ToysRus, HomeSense) moved out there, that used to be located between White Oaks Mall and the Wellington 8. It kinda grinds my gears, since now there's 2 huge stores that are gonna be vacant on our main gateway off the 401. Their location there made much more sense since they were by the mall and close to the highway. I guess since the buildings weren't brand new, or monstrously large, they decided to move?:koko:

From my understanding the Toys R Us on Wellington will stay and the one on Wonderland has opened. HomeSense is open on Wonderland but will not return to Wellington.

It's really sad what you see on Wonderland compared to what's happened to Hyde Park and Fanshawe. Most of the stores here already had a home in Westmount Mall but decided to move out. This includes the LCBO and The Beer Store! What a huge waste of space! So much for being companies parading themselves on green and conservative... score one for car culture. Now not only do we have to drive from store to store, we've left Westmount a ghost town. At least in other locations like Hyde Park new stores have been built, they haven't simply moved a kilometer or two down the street.

[Simpseatles]

^Excellent Points!

Of coarse I would like to see the Bradley extension to Wonderland built at one time but that's wishful thinking. I mean how many new main roads has London actually ever completely built and not just widened or done the odd improvement. The only ones I can think of are Wonderland South, Highbury South, and VMP. Now I don't mean new routes going through the urban areas, but in the suburbs, some completely new arterial roads would have, and in the case of Bradly still can help curb suburban sprawl, encourage more commercial areas, and even public transit within walking distance of suburban homes.

It seems to me that when London builds new subdivisions, they don't think past the next 5 years. Maybe that has to do with the fact that the growth rate isn't GTA style, but many of these subdivisions I've seen start out as one little road with a sign on a country road, but then mushroom into a huge development, eventually taking up a large area from one former country road to another with no room left to build another main road through it, and instead just have some loopy secondary road.

Whereas in KW, it seems to me that the main roads are less spread apart and there are more that go through the suburban areas. That might just be because that's the way the country roads around it were planned, but in London, if you look at a map from 60 years ago, and look at it today I'm pretty sure all the same roads around the city would be there, that are now full of sprawl.


As for the Wonderland/Southdale development, it is just bad, in all senses of the word. I'll list the reasons why I despise it over any other big box development in London:

1.The stores on the west side, are located on what used to be a favourite place to go in the summer, Wally World! (I't aint the same at East Park!):yuck:
2.It helped in the downfall of Westmount. It was the nicest mall in London, no doubt (Underground parking, plenty of light, grand hallways).:D
3.The parking lots all face the road and it looks disgusting!
4.They currently don't have a Futureshop, Best Buy , or any kind of HMV type of store (That's the only reason I go shopping).:haha:

I don't think I will ever understand the reasoning behind these sprawling commercial disasters. In a time when suburban planning is being challenged more and more, I don't see why anyone would like these things over malls, especially in winter!:yes:

[Snark]

It's really sad what you see on Wonderland compared to what's happened to Hyde Park and Fanshawe. Most of the stores here already had a home in Westmount Mall but decided to move out. This includes the LCBO and The Beer Store! What a huge waste of space! So much for being companies parading themselves on green and conservative... score one for car culture. Now not only do we have to drive from store to store, we've left Westmount a ghost town. At least in other locations like Hyde Park new stores have been built, they haven't simply moved a kilometer or two down the street.

Companies will brand themselves as anything that they think will draw business. Capitalism in its purest form has no conscience - only an objective. It is a mindless machine that does as constructed.

The retail mobility trend is really a product of a much larger social shift in terms of retail capitalism and predicated on the evolution of technology. When modern, western-style market economies began to emerge half a millennium ago (yes, market economies existed much prior - but what we have more or less emerged out of the renaissance), retail centers were based in the centre of a town or city - equidistant to travel to for most customers. That didn't change much until after the second world war. The advent of mass automotive transportation drove urban sprawl, as people didn't have to live so close to the center of town any more to still be able to get there in a reasonable period of time to do business.

Given time, small, neighborhood convenience-type shopping plazas popped in the suburbs themselves to provide locals with the ability to get more mundane items and not have to travel to the core anymore. A great survivor from that era is at Wharncliffe/Commissioners - complete with the 50's style corrugated roof line. By the time that the late-60's and early 70's started, subdivisions more massive than anything ever done started developing a signifigant distance from the urban core. These were entire planned communities, with allocated schools, professional services, community centres and rec facilities, and the giant REGIONAL SHOPPING MALL at its core. Examples of this includes Oakridge, Westmount, White Oaks, and later Masonville. This acted as a disincentive for residents of the 'burbs to ever travel to the core, and is what destroyed the existing retail cores of most North American cities. In hindsight it was the natural byproduct of the proliferation of cheap personal transportation for the masses.

As the push for greater and greater profit margins grew in the 90's, retailers with enough clout refused the high rent of malls and went big box. The combination of very cheap to build and operate infrastructure (essentially a warehouse) that can be easily abandoned, coupled with the business model of selling huge numbers of the same or little-varied products of mediocre or low quality allowed for individual products to have a low price (thus bringing in the customers) and still allowing for huge profits for the company. This is the Wall-mart model and it has been astoundingly successful. One need only look to the migration of Ontario retailers Shoppers Drug Mart, LCBO. The Beer Store, Canadian Tire to name a few who have all migrated to the same business model in less than a decade. The result of this? The decline of the regional shopping mall, just as those malls had destroyed the downtown retailers 20 years earlier. Even old abandoned malls are being bought up on the cheap and converted to big box outlets (Great Canadian Superstore) to add insult to injury to the once dominant shopping mall.

Now, the online retailers are about to make a new push for a major market share. Will we see the death of big box facilities in 20 years from online retail? Probably not entirely, but they will likely become much less dominant just as some malls and downtown retail still survive and do well - but their numbers are greatly diminished. That said, online retail's profitability is much higher than even big box, with far far less infrastructure required than even the big-box model. Only major distribution nodes need be built and operated for shipping, and of course along with that is a requirement for far fewer staff. The only thing holding online shopping back is mass acceptance by the buying public. Once that happens, it will be all over for brick and mortar retail to be a dominant force in the urban landscape. It will rather become another element among many others.

This is the sort of conundrum that faces urban planners: how can one plan long-term for good urban development when social and technological trends might change the habits of the city's inhabitants in a span of decades? It's getting damn near impossible anymore in some cases. Would any planner of 10 years ago base their city vision on the fact that an ipad will now allow one to purchase an entire house full of furniture whilst sitting on a park bench over the lunch hour? Will retail commercial business as a dominant force in the urban landscape be spent in 50 years? Quite possibly - but hard to really know - even the "experts". It's too fractal.

The ironic thing is that the original victims of this - the downtowns - were forced to reinvent themselves as something not reliant on retail and are now crawling back to some success after 40 years. Perhaps the remainder of the city will have to do the same in another 20 or 30 years.

[Simpseatles]

^Wow! Very Interesting Snark.:cheers:

Thanks for that brief history of North America's retail industry. The same thing has happened all over North America, and it helps to understand that London is a just another example of this evolution over time.

[haljackey]

:previous:

:previous:

I think we're a wee bit off topic here. But its very interesting... Perhaps you can discuss this somewhere else?

[MolsonExport]

Good synopsis, Snark.

[haljackey]

By LARRY CORNIES of the London Free Press

Highway 401 Widening complete between Woodstock and K-W (6 lanes from 402 to 410)

A very interesting read. I've always hated traveling on the 401 between Woodstock and K-W. With the new 6-lane facility now open with a concrete median, it should be a more pleasurable drive for motorists (although still quite
boring).

Link: http://www.lfpress.com/comment/2010/12/03/16421491.html

Construction zone along Highway 401 in May 2010
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/401_construction_4-6_lanes.jpg/800px-401_construction_4-6_lanes.jpg



WOODSTOCK - Over the past four weeks, they've gradually disappeared: the dump trucks, graders, pavers and stripers. Except for a few crowning touches that will wait until spring, the massive construction project on a 20-kilometre stretch of Hwy. 401 just east of Woodstock is finally finished.

The initiative has taken more than two years and cost millions. But like a giant angioplasty, it has opened the thoroughfare to at least three lanes in each direction along a continuous stretch from the terminus of Hwy. 402 in south London to just east of Toronto.

Completion of the road widening and its now-continuous concrete barrier is a welcome relief to anyone who must travel that stretch frequently. The 401, which on a typical weekday resembles a fast-moving warehouse more than an auto route, is a freeway in constant search of its own limits.

Occasionally, those limits become all too apparent. Such was the case in the early 1990s. As just-in-time delivery became standard practice in the manufacturing and logistics industries, traffic on the highway, especially trucks lugging 53-foot trailers, grew at an astonishing rate.

Those dramatic increases in traffic flow combined with the highway's narrow, open medians to produce a death toll that was nearly unprecedented. Median crossovers were a particular problem and caused dozens of deaths, especially in the stretch between Woodstock and London. Newspaper editorials and letter writers railed against the increasingly dangerous conditions. The province accelerated its improvement plans.

As the scope of the problem became increasingly clear, the province's Transportation Ministry installed rumble strips and erected a permanent concrete barrier along the especially troublesome section, where the grassy median in some places was as narrow as nine metres.

On the newly completed section, the median (already 15 metres wide) wasn't so much the problem as was capacity, according to Michael Swim, an engineer in the Ministry of Transportation's highway planning and design team for West Region. Spurred by industrial growth along the 401 corridor in Oxford and Middlesex counties, the freeway was dealing with "capacity issues" that required additional lanes to reduce "rear-enders and sideswipes," he says.

There are limits, however, to what engineers can do to protect us from ourselves.

As a piece of utilitarian infrastructure, Hwy. 401 works well. The most significant remaining variable in the complex mathematical formula that defines motoring safety on the country's busiest thoroughfare is speed. In short, we're addicted to it.

Never mind the hand-held talkers and texters, who appear unfazed by recent regulations to stem their distraction. Forget the measures intended to impose a maximum speed on trucks at 105 km/h through the use of limiters. It's still the issue of speed, often combined with aggressive driving, that's the major danger out there.

The problem of speed is, in fact, two-fold. First, the posted 100-km/h limit has been rendered meaningless. Observe that limit strictly, even in the right-hand lane, and you become a moving hazard. Even police vehicles on routine business far exceed the posted limit, which seems to serve only the purpose of increasing fines and demerit-point losses when speeders are tagged with going, say, 130 km/h - which may be 30 over the limit but only 10 or 15 above the rate at which traffic is actually moving.

The second aspect of the speed problem is uniformity of movement. On the wildest of days, there can be a 40-km/h (or more) differential between the slowest and fastest motorists on the highway. That disparity leads to aggressive driving and lane changes that wouldn't occur if everyone observed more uniform speeds.

What enforcement of speed limits does exist appears to be checkered: Along the Windsor-Toronto corridor, speed traps are more common in Waterloo Region, Oxford County and Chatham-Kent, for example, than in Essex, Elgin and Middlesex counties.

To mangle some Shakespeare: The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the highway, but in ourselves. While roadway engineers continue to deal with the daunting problem of keeping up with capacity, the biggest remaining step we can take to make the 401 a less intimidating beast would be to address the speed issue unambiguously.

That means a maximum speed of 110 and zero tolerance for those who exceed it. Many U.S. states apply the zero-tolerance rule; there's no reason we can't.

Those measures would accomplish at least as much as the perennial reconstruction we're tempted to believe is the ultimate answer.

[Blitz]

Excellent! So now I think the only place that isn't 6 lanes (between Windsor and Toronto anyway) is the stretch between Tilbury and London.

[haljackey]

Excellent! So now I think the only place that isn't 6 lanes (between Windsor and Toronto anyway) is the stretch between Tilbury and London.

Correct. The next stretches of the 401 to be widened from 4 to 6 lanes are the 401 / Windsor-Essex Parkway connection in Windsor and between Highway 4 and 402 in London.

As part of the widening in London, the Highway 4 / 401 interchange will be completely reconstructed (I believe it the last remaining cloverleaf on the 401, and one of the last on the 400-series) and a new junction with Wonderland Road will be constructed. The old Westminster Drive overpass will have to be replaced too, and some consider it to be a historic bridge.

According to the MTO, the project won't begin until at least 2015, but the City of London could pressure them to at least build the Wonderland junction before then. This stretch is also planned to get resurfaced in 2012 which means the actual widening probably won't happen for some time.. what's the point of ripping up asphalt still in decent condition? :shrug:

[bolognium]

The problem of speed is, in fact, two-fold. First, the posted 100-km/h limit has been rendered meaningless. Observe that limit strictly, even in the right-hand lane, and you become a moving hazard. Even police vehicles on routine business far exceed the posted limit, which seems to serve only the purpose of increasing fines and demerit-point losses when speeders are tagged with going, say, 130 km/h - which may be 30 over the limit but only 10 or 15 above the rate at which traffic is actually moving.

The second aspect of the speed problem is uniformity of movement. On the wildest of days, there can be a 40-km/h (or more) differential between the slowest and fastest motorists on the highway. That disparity leads to aggressive driving and lane changes that wouldn't occur if everyone observed more uniform speeds.

My friend moved back from Calgary a few months ago and came back into London on the 401. He'd never driven on the 401 before since he received his license in Alberta, but said he was amazed that the regular flow of traffic was 120km/h.

I don't know from experience, but he says that kind of shit would not fly in Alberta.

[haljackey]

The 100km/h rule is a joke. Anyone who is actually traveling at this speed is in danger or being rear-ended on the "Ontariobahn".

It is actually safer to travel between 105-110 than it is at 100, or go with the flow of traffic, whatever it is traveling at.

The entire length of the 401 has a design speed of 130, and thus you feel comfortable driving at this speed and feel like you're driving way too slowly on it at 100. Other 400-series highways have design speeds of 130 as well, except for some older and tighter segments like Highway 403 in Hamilton.

My friend moved back from Calgary a few months ago and came back into London on the 401. He'd never driven on the 401 before since he received his license in Alberta, but said he was amazed that the regular flow of traffic was 120km/h.

I don't know from experience, but he says that kind of shit would not fly in Alberta.

...And the funny thing is the speed limit in Alberta is 110 for most freeways, where in Ontario it is 100.

The 401 should get it's speed limit increased to 110 or 120, at least in rural areas. Other 400-Series highways could follow this rule too. This makes it much more notable to see drivers doing 130+ and let the cops do their dirty work.

Back in the day when Canada used Imperial the speed limit was 70 MPH, or about 115 km/h. The sudden drop to 100 on the metric switch was too drastic in my opinion, and it shows on the road because nearly everyone goes over the "Maximum 100 km/h" limit.

[Blitz]

A lot of states have raised their limits in recent years to 70 mph, including Michigan. Ontario would do fine raising the limit to 110 km/h (especially in rural southwestern Ontario which is basically the same landscape as Michigan).

[Kokkei Mizu]

I recently went to Europe, and they know what they're doing in my opinion. In random places, or at the entrance to a town, there will be speed cameras. They apparently have 0 tolerance, and if you are going 1 km/h over the speed limit, you are billed at least 90 euros -- or so I was told.

I don't see why that system wouldn't work here? Especially when you're entering a town. People don't slow down from 80 km/h to 50 km/h right away, and it is a danger to people living near the edge of town.

Another interesting thing to note about Europe (or at least the parts of France and Spain I visited), almost all freeways were tolled and had a speed limit of 120 km/h or even 130 km/h. The speed cameras weren't as common, probably because of the toll, but we never felt like we needed to speed anyway. We would usually be under the speed limit and still feel safe and going with the flow of traffic.

My grandfather always said that if you raise the speed limit on the 401 to 120 km/h, people will go 140 km/h. I don't know if this is true. Haljackey said that the 400-series highways are designed for 130 km/h... Would most people really go 140 km/h? I don't think I would feel safe going more than 120 km/h. Not to mention the gas consumption and the wear and tear on the car...

[haljackey]

My grandfather always said that if you raise the speed limit on the 401 to 120 km/h, people will go 140 km/h. I don't know if this is true. Haljackey said that the 400-series highways are designed for 130 km/h... Would most people really go 140 km/h? I don't think I would feel safe going more than 120 km/h. Not to mention the gas consumption and the wear and tear on the car...

Exactly. People feel comfortable driving at 120-130 on the 400-series because it's close to the design speed. Once you go over 130 the laws of physics really become noticeable because it becomes very difficult to control your car at these speeds. Try actually doing 100 on these roads... you have a lot more control!

That's why most of the roads in Europe are 130. Doing more than 10 over this limit is an endurance test for both yourself and your car. That's why the speed down the German Autobahns with no speed limit is usually 130-140km/h rather than much higher as many of us think.

Yes in many parts of the world traffic cameras are set up and clock your speed. Some of them act like the 407 ETR where they take a picture of your license plate and if you're clocked in at going over the limit, a ticket is sent to your mail address.

Something like this was implemented in the US state of Arizona not long ago and many motorists thought it was an invasion of their rights/freedoms. The government and law enforcement stated that it clearly wasn't because the roads are owned by the state... if you don't comply with the rules of the road you will be penalized.

Eventually the controversial measure was killed after it reached the US supreme court or something but it goes to show ya what can be done to the speed limit here. Perhaps something similar could be implemented here in Ontario. It would help enforce limits and generate some much needed revenue for our province which is in a mountain of debt.



Getting back to London Roads, how about that snow, eh? A 5 min drive took me over 20 yesterday.

I'll be heading out soon for my 3:00 class at Fanshawe. Normally takes me over an hour by bus to get to school (I live in the southwest end) so I have no idea how long it will be today. Classes at UWO are canceled (http://communications.uwo.ca/com/western_news/stories/classes_and_exams_cancelled_20101206447179/) but Fanshawe is still a go? Aww... I have an exam today and don't want to write it. :rolleyes:

[MolsonExport]

As of 11am, classes at UWO were cancelled.

[haljackey]

As of 11am, classes at UWO were cancelled.

As of 12:30, classes at Fanshawe are canceled. I just found out before I left. Talk about timing lol.


Apparently there are somewhere between 30-100 accidents in the city today. Not sure why that number varies so greatly unless it factors in the number of cars involved or weather they were in the city or city and surrounding area.


I reckon there's a good chance we might go through a similar ordeal tomorrow. Could be 60-100cm on the ground by the end of Wednesday!

[go_leafs_go02]

I'm actually quite jealous. I'm staring out now at +5 and cloudy skies. No snow here..

[haljackey]

I'm sure if many of you know what's been going on in London, Ontario... we've received about 100cm of snow. The city is practically shut down.

I took this video of Highway 402 and 401 eastbound on Friday, December 3, just as the snowfall was beginning. The system lingered Saturday and intensified Sunday, dumping massive amounts of snow on the area mostly through 'snow squalls'.

VHNKzl9uV3A&hd=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHNKzl9uV3A


On Sunday, Highway 401 westbound was closed in the London area due to multiple collisions and rollovers. It opened late Monday but both highways 401 and 402 continue to be very slow going.

On Tuesday, the city came extremely close to declaring a state of emergency. Schools and public transit have been canceled for 3 days straight (Monday-Wednesday) and non-essential government services have been closed. Many public businesses closed up shop too as the city came to a standstill. London has asked surrounding cities for help.

The video shows just how suddenly changes to the weather can occur here. At the end of the video my camera tripod fell off the dashboard as I navigated a curve because it wasn't well secured. I didn't crash lol.

We could get another 20-40cm by the end of Wednesday. Winter doesn't officially start until Dec 21. :P

[Duke-Of-Waterloo]

By the way, Kitchener and Waterloo are two separate cities, which are both smaller than London. That's the main reason why that region doesn't have a downtown as large or as dense as London.


Separately as cities, yes. However, the Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo CMA is now larger than London as it has been growing at a faster rate. Still though when considering these three cities, there are 5 separate downtowns...this makes it harder to concentrate development in one single urban core.

[haljackey]

Still though when considering these three cities, there are 5 separate downtowns...this makes it harder to concentrate development in one single urban core.

Exactly. Kitchener may be larger in terms or regional/metro/urban/whatever population, but London has a larger population as a city compared to any city in the 4-headed beast to the east (K-W-C-G)

Thus London has a bigger downtown. Development is more concentrated in the inner-city but once you leave it London becomes Sprawlville, USA just like everywhere else. :P



And since we're in the roads thread, notice how freeways didn't contribute to sprawl in London cuz we don't have any (to serve local traffic).

[Snark]

Waterloo Region and the City Of London are very. very different animals in terms of structure, geography, urban composition, history, etc.

The easy thing to do is make comparisons as if they were "Springfield and Shelbyville". The truth is that although an hour apart, they are separated by big differences. Some are mentioned above. In short, London is one municipality with one business community, one government, one core, one plan, etc. As such, it gives the appearance of 'one big city". Waterloo Region is an amalgam of many communities, governments, and regional differences, and shall remain so for the foreseeable future. As such, it gives the appearance of "a big sub-urbanity", due to the large proportion of residential development vs. core size. In the future, such circumstances (as well as others such as the Places To grow Act) will shape both cities and will chart very different futures because of their circumstances.

As for hanging one's hat strictly on population, recall Mississauga: a massive population - but far from being a true community or urban centre. In fact quite the opposite: it is nothing more than the world's largest subdivision. There are massive problems coming up for that city in about 40 years, but Hazel will be gone then. This phenomenon is the greatest long-term threat to Waterloo Region's identity: becoming another Mississauga or Markham. A big municipality sure, but seen as just another Toronto suburb.

Back to topic: none of this is to say that there must be winners and losers between both neighbouring cities. In fact there is interaction between the two quite frequently, and that will continue.

[haljackey]

While Mississauga may be suburbia, it is showing signs of emerging into it's own unique city. With nearly all of it's land consumed, it is beginning to really build up instead of out.

Mississauga's population is estimated to have topped Detroit's this year, becoming the third largest city on the Great Lakes (Behind Chicago and Toronto respectively).

Mississauga City Centre and the Hurontario Street corridor are seeing massive development, such as Absolute World. This is a radical change from sprawlville.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii108/jasonzedd/Mississauga4/20101209005.jpg

I see good things going for Mississauga.. it definitely has the potential to emerge into it's own big city.

Relating it back to London and this topic, it's infrastructure is relatively young and built to more modern standards than London's. Thus you're going to have more problems in London (such as the giant sinkhole a couple years ago) and you need to spend adequate money to fix them. This means there may not be as much money to go around for other road projects and could mean higher taxes in London.

You simply can't compare London, K-W and Mississauga with one-another, even though they're all within 160km of eathother! :P

[bolognium]

I really dislike Mississauga. The whole city gives me a feeling of being on a movie set, or that fake New York skyline in Las Vegas, or Disneyland's vision of a "big city."

And Absolute World is ugly.

[manny_santos]

I also wonder if there will come a point when Toronto simply starts annexing neighbouring municipalities including Mississauga. Toronto's population would hit 3.4 million overnight if they annexed Mississauga and Vaughan, both expansive suburbs with no clear sense of place other than being Toronto suburbs.

Brampton, Richmond Hill, and Markham at least have some sense of place, having been towns on their own previously.

[MolsonExport]

Hazel could very well still be around in 40 years. Hell, Kim Il Sung is the eternal ruler of North Korea (even though he passed into the void some 20 years ago). How's that for Absolute?


pardon the pun

[Simpseatles]

I've mentionted this before on another thread, but Mississauga having a real downtown is laughable!:jester:

While it's great to see that they are building upwards along Hurontario Street, once you get off of it, your into some spaghetti pattern urban sprawl, that has no identity, and could never handle more density. I mean what kind of downtown is concentrated only on major arteries? What makes a great urban feel to me is the interconnectivity of dense neighbourhoods that the downtown can "spill" on to. A perfect example is Toronto, or even London. I have a broad definition of our downtown in London as being anywhere south of Oxford, North or east of the Thames, and about west of Adelaide, because although it may not all be the same density, it has a direct relation to the CBD with apartments, condos and commercial developments.

As for the London roads,(better stay on topic, or Haljackey will freak!:haha: ) while I would like to see more growth, I'm happy that we don't have 6 lane arteries, wide freeways and unparraleled sprawl like in the G.T.A. That's what turns me off about Toronto, because as dense, and urban is it's downtown areas are, the vast majority of the areas, even within the city itself, are suburban. And of course once you get past those your into the first round of suburban cities (Mississauge, Brampton) and then your into the newest boomburbs like Milton, or Barrie. It's really quite maddening!

London is a good sized city, with a well defined core that isn't growing at a ridiculous pace. All we need to do is build a few better roads, limit the sprawl, focus even more attention downtown and then we'd be a much more liveable city than Toronto any day!:)

[haljackey]

As for the London roads,(better stay on topic, or Haljackey will freak!:haha: ) while I would like to see more growth, I'm happy that we don't have 6 lane arteries, wide freeways and unparraleled sprawl like in the G.T.A. That's what turns me off about Toronto, because as dense, and urban is it's downtown areas are, the vast majority of the areas, even within the city itself, are suburban. And of course once you get past those your into the first round of suburban cities (Mississauge, Brampton) and then your into the newest boomburbs like Milton, or Barrie. It's really quite maddening!

lol! With so many threads in this local section, staying on-topic should be fairly easy but we all get carried away.

About 6 lane roads... the only one I could see is Wellington between Base Line and the 401. Many sections of it already have 3 lanes (6 lanes between Base line and Commissioners, 3 southbound lanes from Southdale to Bradley, 3 southbound lanes from Exeter to Wilton Grove) so making it a complete 6 lane facility shouldn't be too much trouble.
-The only other 6 lane artery I see for the short-to-mid term is some sections of Oxford street.

Unlike cities like K-W which channel traffic through just a few corridors (like King Street in Kitchener), London has more of a grid pattern which means there are more ways to get from A to B. That's one of the main reasons why we don't have a lot of wide roads.

I really don't like to call Toronto/GTA a mess of sprawl and freeways because the region is actually 2.5x denser than other cities in North America with a comparable size. In addition, Toronto's freeway network is actually quite minimalist, but I like their strategy of having a few mega-freeways to handle capacity rather than criss-cross the city with many smaller ones. If Toronto and the MTO focused on upgrading the major interchanges they would get a lot more capacity out of these routes than widening them further.

I still think London could have feared better with a freeway in the east end. It would help reduce the amount of freight trucks using the surface streets (like Highbury) and make our industrial areas more economically attractive by having a direct connection to the 401. The VMP might be the answer for this if it is actually upgraded to a freeway but I think it's too late and too far away from the industrial complexes. A freeway would also help residents in booming north London get off city streets by using it to channel cars to the 401. Roads like Richmond, Highbury and Wellington would see a noticable reduction in traffic if we built a freeway.

[Simpseatles]

^Good points.

What I meant about the GTA sprawl is that, as relatively dense as it is, it takes up vast ammounts of area overnight. I know that they are trying to curb it with the Greenbelt, and I think the planning is inventive (although if I wanted to live in the burbs, I'd want more of a London style home). However answer me this, if Toronto had an adequate Highway system, than why would it have the longest average commute time in North America? But then again perhaps that's the fault of their so called "best transit system in NA" but that's another story.

Speaking of the Freeway idea, What would your idea have been for an eastern expressway? If VMP ever gets partially upgraded, and extened north I think it will do the job fine.

Also, what about the western end expressway link. Do you believe there's any need for it? If so, where do you think it should be built?

Sorry for so many questions, you've probably had enough with exams, eh?

[haljackey]

Speaking of the Freeway idea, What would your idea have been for an eastern expressway? If VMP ever gets partially upgraded, and extened north I think it will do the job fine.

Also, what about the western end expressway link. Do you believe there's any need for it? If so, where do you think it should be built?

Sorry for so many questions, you've probably had enough with exams, eh?

Actually I plowed through 4 exams in 2 days, thanks to the 3 snow days we had this week. Just one left next week along with all those major projects... I check Skyscrapercity during breaks as it allows my mind to relax and think about more practical things.


As stated above, I think the VMP is too far away to be the "best" freeway for London's east side. Highbury would have probably been a disaster if the expressway portion continued so I'm fine with where it ends. The best location in my opinion was near Old Victoria Road. Back in the 50's and 60's an alignment could have been built to either replace what is now Clarke Road or parallel it. Honestly just about everyone had their own thoughts on where such a route could have been built.. a pity none of them were ever realized to their full potential.

Currently Highbury Avenue is a grade-seperated expressway from Commissioners to Bradley and an at-grade expressway from Hamilton to Commissioners and Bradley to Highway 401. The VMP is an at-grade expressway for it's entire length.

The VMP is planned to wrap around the Fanshawe Conservation Area and meet with Clarke Road. The best thing the City can do now is upgrade Clarke Road to expressway standards from Sunningdale to the VMP's terminus and rename it the VMP. Of course replacing the intersections with interchanges will make it a freeway.

I doubt a east-west freeway will ever happen because London has nearly used up all it's available land within it's northern city limits. The Municipality of Middlesex Centre (north of London) has rejected any freeway plans and thus the province would have to step in.
-But if the city acted quickly enough they could have bought the right of way just north of the Sunningdale country club. That strip of land just scrapes the edges of the boundary and runs south of Arva.

For a western freeway, one is proposed near Westel Bourne road. Problem here is again land is being consumed, especially in Byron and the Commissioners-Oxford junction. Planning such a route would be difficult and I don't think there's enough demand for such a route right now. Best thing the city can do now is buy the right of way and think about how it should junction with the 402 and possibly the 401.

So there you go. Hopefully I answered your questions. Now its back to finishing assignments lol. ;)

[Simpseatles]

^Interesting. You definately know what your talking about when it comes to road planning, as apposed to the clueless people who work for the city!

[Pimpmasterdac]

City looks like it wants to totally realign the Wharncliffe, Wonderland, Exeter Triangle of doom.

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/3843/swlc.jpg

Looks like it will be an awesome plan if it comes to fruition. I donno how well it will play in the sticks like Lambeth though, getting cut off from Wharncliffe bypasing them might hurt business.

But overall looks like a good plan!

[haljackey]

Interesting.

I've also seen plans to convert the triangle into a large rotary/roundabout/traffic circle.

Buildings like TSC hardware and the Husky gas station would end up being in the "circle".

Either way I hope they do something about it while the land around it is mostly undeveloped. Traveling on Wonderland southbound and waiting for traffic to turn left to Warncliffe Northbound happens a lot, and doesn't make a lot of sense to me... unless people are traveling extremely short distances.

Perhaps when Bradley gets built traffic patterns will change.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Roundabouts sounds like a good solution, a bit foreign in London but better than the long ass traffic signals.

My only concern having a large roundabout @ the triangle is that a lot of the drivers in that area are seniors who already drive quite poorly and slowly. Putting that in would confuse and disorient them and others as well as slow things down.

The Hale Trafalgar roundabout should have opened by now, barring it being under a metre of snow still!

But then again our city seems to move at a snails pace when it comes to road development. Instead we have to fund "essentials" money losers like pioneer village, Orchestra London, and downtown revitalization which included idiotic street parking on Richmond.

[haljackey]

But then again our city seems to move at a snails pace when it comes to road development. Instead we have to fund "essentials" money losers like pioneer village, Orchestra London, and downtown revitalization which included idiotic street parking on Richmond.

If Richmond had a 4 lane street running parallel to it (like Wellington if it didn't end) then I'd be for the on-street parking on one of these roads. The main north-south artery in central London shouldn't be blocked at any time in my opinion.

As for old people vs roundabouts, as long as they drive the right way on the one-way road, I think they'll do fine. Since turns are not sharp on the roundabout, they could simply circle the roundabout again if they miss their turn.

I expect the Hale/Trafalgar roundabout overpass to at least partially open by the end of the year. With such a unique project, and such awful weather, delays are to be expected.


Speaking of overpasses, the Quebec Street overpass is a mess. Luckily at least one lane is open on either side and since the road is pretty much one lane for the majority of Quebec street's length, it isn't a serious impact on traffic movement. The thing is way behind schedule and way over-budget because the condition of the bridge is actually in much worse shape internally than what was estimated. Imagine if that happened on a major artery... traffic would suck.

While I won't name specifics, the city could save a ton of money if they rid themselves of costly programs. Joe's tax freeze instead saw reductions on city infrastructure funding. As I stated earlier, this isn't Mississauga. Most of our infrastructure is dated and in need of repairs/replacements/upgrades along with expansions. Cutting funding in the short term means it will be much more expensive to simply maintain in the long term, especially if the system fails like the sinkhole we saw a few years back.

[Pimpmasterdac]

If Richmond had a 4 lane street running parallel to it (like Wellington if it didn't end) then I'd be for the on-street parking on one of these roads. The main north-south artery in central London shouldn't be blocked at any time in my opinion.

My feelings exactly. I could even understand the on-street parking if it really did bring new or more people to the downtown. Instead its used by the same cars on Richmond (around Central by the bong shop and coffee shops before Dufferin) that are using it as a convince to the hindrance of the flow of traffic on Richmond.

As well it doesn't help that all sorts of buses run Richmond, on-street parking makes driving in the area a giant game of frogger guessing which lane to get into.

Fact remains there's all sorts of parking available on side streets Dufferin Kent, Albert and Central, within 5 min walk of most of downtown. Hopefully Fontana and this pro-business council could change things soon!


While I won't name specifics, the city could save a ton of money if they rid themselves of costly programs. Joe's tax freeze instead saw reductions on city infrastructure funding.

Cutting funding in the short term means it will be much more expensive to simply maintain in the long term, especially if the system fails like the sinkhole we saw a few years back.

When he introduced his no-tax increase policy I didn't know that it included water and sewer charges too, I assumed just property taxes. Very short sighted decision not increasing that to the determent of our crumbling infrastructure. We're not Toronto, with all sorts of left-wing fees that have we can slash.

My only hope is that Fontana comes down hard on all these special interest groups looking for a hand out that Anne-Marie would pander to. Cities do need money to operate 911 services, libraries, buses, roads basic things. In recent years our council seems to have lost this focus on the basics and adopted a fund everything approach, with a do-nothing attitude to making any decisions with slightest whiff of controversy(deer overpopulation in Hyde Park).

[MolsonExport]

i hate the exeter et al. triangle of doom. If they are going to keep it, for god sakes, put in a friggen left turn lane already!

[Highinthesky]

I think the opposition is based on people's unfamiliarity with traffic circles in this part of the world. People just don't like new things haha

[haljackey]

I think the opposition is based on people's unfamiliarity with traffic circles in this part of the world. People just don't like new things haha

Funny you should mention that...

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/2803/clipboard05.png



The London Free Press

Londoners are about to find out driving around in circles really can get you somewhere.

The green flag will be lifted for drivers Friday on the city’s first major traffic roundabout, the $16-million Hale-Trafalgar overpass, after an opening ceremony.

Routine in Europe, the circular intersections are starting to pop up in Canadian cites. The Waterloo Region has about a dozen and London has a few small ones scattered in new subdivisions.

But even proponents of roundabouts concede some drivers will be wide-eyed and whiteknuckled when they enter the Hale-Trafalgar overpass for the first time.

Dave Leckie, London’s director of roads and transportation, says he has faith London drivers will adapt and won’t end up doing endless loops.

“I think people will err on the side of caution.”

But there are skeptics, such as the man who approached Leckie at one of the project’s public meetings.

“He told me Londoners are too stupid to drive on a roundabout. Well, if Waterloo drivers can handle them I think Londoners can,” Leckie said.

A video camera will be installed at the overpass so the road staff can monitor the flow of traffic, What: A circular intersection that channels vehicles in one direction around a central island. Right of way: Drivers in the roundabout have it. Entering/leaving: Drivers entering make a right turn and go around the circle to their exit. Speed limit: 50 km/h Benefits: No signals or stops; cuts fuel use, increases safety. he said.

Roundabouts take some getting used to, but are safer in the long run, said Steve Clark, who operates the Young Drivers of Canada driving school in London.

“You don’t have left-hand turns in front of speeding traffic. You don’t have traffic coming from different directions, (vehicles) are flowing around the roundabout.”

ROUNDABOUT Letters explaining the roundabout will be delivered to homes near the overpass, Leckie said. A pamphlet was also distributed in The Londoner Dec. 3.

Information will also be posted on the city’s website, he said, but there are no plans for an informational video — something Waterloo Region did.

The Hale-Trafalgar overpass will solve a chronic traffic problem in the area — cursed by drivers for years — caused by a CN Rail line crossing the streets at an odd angle.

CN Rail will benefit because the overpass will ease operations in its rail-marshalling yards.

Former city councillor Roger Caranci said the Hale-Trafalgar overpass was one of the first issues he tackled when he came on council in 2000. Pulling together the funding from the city, provincial and federal governments, and CN Rail was a tough fight.

“I found out it took 10 years to get a bridge built in the city of London,” Caranci said.

It’s closer to 20. At the project’s ground-breaking in February, Caranci’s colleague Bud Polhill found a city council document on the issue dating back to 1992.

The overpass will be named for the late Second World War fighter pilot Charley Fox, who lived in east London. A plaque honouring Fox will be installed.



The first time I drive on this, I'm going in circles. I don't care if I confuse other drivers, I want to celebrate. :jester:

[Highinthesky]

Hopefully this new snow ends and the road gets cleared for Friday. Don't need to opening to have snow and But even proponents of roundabouts concede some drivers will be wide-eyed and whiteknuckled when they enter the Hale-Trafalgar overpass for the first time.

[go_leafs_go02]

I laugh. I drive through 2-lane roundabouts all the time here. 1-lane is as simple as you can get. It'll be fine. I'm sure.

[haljackey]

I laugh. I drive through 2-lane roundabouts all the time here. 1-lane is as simple as you can get. It'll be fine. I'm sure.

Well some people argue that the traffic circle is extraordinary narrow compared to most other roundabouts. While this is true people have to realize that this is an overpass. A much larger structure would be required to increase the roundabout's circumference, and would cost a lot more money to boot.

I welcome roundabouts. Hopefully it will make London feel more like her big sister which has the highest number of roundabouts in the world.

[MolsonExport]

Roundabouts would be fine if they are cleared of snow. In my neighborhood, the snowclearing is beyond terrible (yes, I have complained), and going around the circle means spinning your wheels and swiping the side banks. 8-10 inches of snow...AFTER the snowplow. God help any pedestrians.

[haljackey]

Highway 401 westbound as seen from Wellington Road:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5248/5278987685_9afa80e16d_b.jpg

This is what most people see as they drive through London: wilderness.

Who's for developing the 401/402 corridors? I am, even though they're both outside our stupid urban growth boundary.

[Simpseatles]

This is what most people see as they drive through London: wilderness.

Who's for developing the 401/402 corridors? I am, even though they're both outside our stupid urban growth boundary.

Yes! Lets get to it already. After Wellington road, all you see from the 401 is some desperate looking no mans land around the prison, and then nothing. The corner of the 401/402 is currently occupied by a farm!

Screw the current urban growth boundry, the city needs to develop this area into an industrial park. To most people outside the area, this is what London is, the meeting place of the 401 and 402!

It's worth noting that thanks to the city's conservative urban growth boundry, the massive new Armatec factory chose to open up in my little hick town, rather than in the city itself, because it wouldn't change it slightly so it could be built around Highbury/401.

[haljackey]

Yes! Lets get to it already. After Wellington road, all you see from the 401 is some desperate looking no mans land

Screw the current urban growth boundry, the city needs to develop this area into an industrial park. To most people outside the area, this is what London is, the meeting place of the 401 and 402!


Doing this would make London look bigger to the average motorist passing by the city.

In addition, think of all the potential jobs developing these lands would create. Industries want to locate close to freeways so you're going to have some good demand. Developing the lands would bring jobs, and you need people to work in the companies once they are built.

With one of the highest unemployment numbers in the country (metro), and the Ford Plant closing next year, we need to do something drastic to create jobs. Developing these lands should have been done long ago.

Extending the urban growth boundary to a few hundred meters south of the 401 would be best. Creating a 4-way interchange with the 401 and VMP could allow a lot of industrial development take place on Wilton Grove east.

Joe said he would create jobs. This is a good way for him to keep his word. The LEDC (London Economic Development Corporation) has been pushing for 401/402 development for some time as well.

[Simpseatles]

Extending the urban growth boundary to a few hundred meters south of the 401 would be best. Creating a 4-way interchange with the 401 and VMP could allow a lot of industrial development take place on Wilton Grove east.

.

This is sort of already going on with the massive new industrial park around Bradley and VMP. The part west of VMP will be visible from the 401. I'm really interested to see this one develop because for the past 3 years it's all just been road construction.