[MolsonExport]

^to each his own, but I am a Habs fan. :D

[haljackey]

lol no the dual left turn lanes.

I have trucks from every NHL team driving in my cities :P

[manny_santos]

lol no the dual left turn lanes.

I have trucks from every NHL team driving in my cities :P

Does the Leafs truck crash and burn every year in late October? :D

[Wharn]

More Philadelphia Flyer trucks?

Looks like we need more development on one side of an arterial and fields on the other. It's the newest wave of urban planning, we shall call it the "Forest City Movement".

[Pimpmasterdac]

There suppose to be double turn lanes westbound on Sarnia & Wonderland whenever it gets widened.,, Same with Hyde Park north and southbound on Oxford.

City should probably look into that for Wonderland at Oxford, Commissioners, and Southdale as well. Wellington & Commissioners south on Wellington could use that too.

Again a lot of these improvements are suppose to happen when the city widens these roads, sometime in the next 20 years that this rate

[haljackey]

Progress at Sarnia Road:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/306329_10150502401519852_629139851_11480933_355043349_n.jpg

Should be done next month.

[K85]

I think Hamilton and Highbury needs something for the left turn on Southbound Highbury... I dunno how many times I've almost been t-boned, and I have a quick car, so some old lady is bound to get smacked hard...

[MolsonExport]

Progress at Sarnia Road:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/306329_10150502401519852_629139851_11480933_355043349_n.jpg

Should be done next month.

Wow, that is wide. wonder why they didn't jig the road so as to spare width.

[haljackey]

Wow, that is wide. wonder why they didn't jig the road so as to spare width.

Stimulus money meant they could build it straight. There's room for 2 tracks underneath as well.

This project wasn't supposed to get started until 2015+ but "Canada's Economic Action Plan" got shovels in the ground earlier.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Bridge will be nice, long over due could have been used decades ago.

Part that;s stupid is when the bridge will be 4-lanes, Sarnia still isn't being widened either east or west of the bridge. More poor London planning!

[Wharn]

Bridge will be nice, long over due could have been used decades ago.

Part that;s stupid is when the bridge will be 4-lanes, Sarnia still isn't being widened either east or west of the bridge. More poor London planning!

I think they're actually planning ahead by including a 4-lane bridge now and then upgrading the rest once the money is available (probably in conjunction with the complete 4-laning of Sarnia Road from Western to Hyde Park). Right now just consider the bridge a short stretch that can be used to pass trucks.

[go_leafs_go02]

Nah, bet the bridge will be like the Oxford Street West bridge. 2 lanes right now, plenty of room for 4 when needed (which might be in a few years)...

[haljackey]

The bridge is supposed to open next month. Judging from these recent photos, I doubt it will be finished by then.

http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Sarnia_Bridge_Oct5_crop.jpg

http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Sarnia_Bridge_Aerial_Sept28.jpg

[Symz]

The bridge is supposed to open next month. Judging from these recent photos, I doubt it will be finished by then.

http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Sarnia_Bridge_Oct5_crop.jpg

http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Sarnia_Bridge_Aerial_Sept28.jpg

Judging from those photos I doubt it either! ;)

[MolsonExport]

not a snowball's chance in hell..

[manny_santos]

As I recall the start of the construction was delayed by inclement weather. Remember how much rain we got in May?

This bridge will be worth the wait.

[Wharn]

We may have to live without Sarnia Road for the winter. It'll be just like the old days when the concessions were made impassable and isolated London from the outside world.

On that note, what the hell is going on with the Bridge at Perth Drive and Windermere? It's been well over a month since they switched sides (first refurbish one side, then the other) and it doesn't look anywhere close to completion.

[MrSlippery519]

Does anyone know what is happening on the South East corner of Wonderland where Bradley is supposed to come out?? Over the past week they have been leveling that entire area.......maybe Bradley finally got the go ahead??

[MolsonExport]

Mega Wallfart numero deux?

[haljackey]

Mega Wallfart numero deux?

Wal-Fart owns the land on the southeast corner of Wonderland and Exeter.

Sadly, the work going on is for more residential development, not an extention of Bradley. Don't expect that any time soon. :(

[MrSlippery519]

Sadly, the work going on is for more residential development, not an extention of Bradley. Don't expect that any time soon. :(

I think we need to go slap somebody down at city hall...seems like this would be a no brainer to do sooner than later.

[manny_santos]

Although I haven't seen the most recent work as I'm in Toronto, I would speculate a section of Bradley Ave will be built to service new residential development, but not actually functioning as an extension yet as it won't connect to White Oak Road.

Last time I was down there I noticed work going on west of the intersection, although I would speculate it is more commercial development.

[haljackey]

Here's a partial-y interchange I made in Simcity 4 that was inspired by the 401/402 junction in London.

Click for full size:
http://i.imgur.com/cZ31c.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/bKyGw.jpg)

[go_leafs_go02]

it even includes that weird sudden jog on the 402 right when you get off the 401.

Still can't believe that hasn't been fixed fully. All of a sudden, the curve radius sharpens to meet the old extent from when the 401 was widened a few years ago.

[Kokkei Mizu]

You forgot the high-mast lighting! :P

[Snark]

I think we need to go slap somebody down at city hall...seems like this would be a no brainer to do sooner than later.

Except that for the most part, the City is not in the business of building new roads.

[haljackey]

it even includes that weird sudden jog on the 402 right when you get off the 401.

Still can't believe that hasn't been fixed fully. All of a sudden, the curve radius sharpens to meet the old extent from when the 401 was widened a few years ago.

Yeah I tried to make it as accurate as I could based on the limitations of the game. That curve is pretty abrupt for a 400-series, especially due to the fact that you take it going 100+. It's pretty scary during the night too because the lighting system ends just before the curve begins.

You forgot the high-mast lighting! :P

Well I didn't want to clutter it so you could see the roads themselves. I'll probably add some lighting and soundwalls next and then maybe develop the surrounding area.

[Wharn]

What is this weird jog everyone's talking about? I've been on that interchange a half dozen times and never noticed any such thing.

[haljackey]

What is this weird jog everyone's talking about? I've been on that interchange a half dozen times and never noticed any such thing.


You can see it here, 1:40 in.
iFXvbx8bnTE

It's a rather sharp curve for a 100+ speed. There's no hazard signs, and the lighting ends just before the curve begins.

It's really not that bad, but it is noticeable.

[go_leafs_go02]

You can see it here, 1:40 in.
iFXvbx8bnTE

It's a rather sharp curve for a 100+ speed. There's no hazard signs, and the lighting ends just before the curve begins.

It's really not that bad, but it is noticeable.

It really look like the construction limits from the 401 widening didn't go far enough along the 402 westbound to ensure that curve would be taken care of. They did some resurfacing there, so it isn't as bad as before, but still, it's like 2 separate curves join up at a weird angle/jog.

[Pimpmasterdac]

MTO could've picked so many better junctions for 401/402.

While a through/cross city route would've been preferable, they picked such a weak one, Route E. Think if they had picked Route F! An interchange at Wonderland/Wharncliffe, a de facto west end freeway as it ran close to London and something that would've alleviated west end traffic.

Of course the current route doesn't do a damn thing for anyone travelling in London

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3796/402map.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/402map.jpg/)

[Wharn]

You can see it here, 1:40 in.

It's a rather sharp curve for a 100+ speed. There's no hazard signs, and the lighting ends just before the curve begins.

It's really not that bad, but it is noticeable.

Again, didn't really notice anything out of the ordinary. Maybe it's just because I'm used to driving on terrible two-lane highways, but for me that looks just like a normal interchange.


While a through/cross city route would've been preferable, they picked such a weak one, Route E. Think if they had picked Route F! An interchange at Wonderland/Wharncliffe, a de facto west end freeway as it ran close to London and something that would've alleviated west end traffic.

Route F would have also run right through two major obstacles: a "high-value" natural area and the Wharncliffe-Wonderland-Exeter triangle of doom. I wonder if any of that had an effect on the final decision.

[Simpseatles]

Of course the current route doesn't do a damn thing for anyone travelling in London
]

While I don't technically live in London (I'm just east of town) my family uses the 401/402 to get to West London sometimes.

[manny_santos]

Techically they chose a combination of H and E - notice Route H runs west of Delaware, close to the junction of Highways 2 and 81.

[Snark]

MTO could've picked so many better junctions for 401/402.

While a through/cross city route would've been preferable, they picked such a weak one, Route E. Think if they had picked Route F! An interchange at Wonderland/Wharncliffe, a de facto west end freeway as it ran close to London and something that would've alleviated west end traffic.

Actually, the final route was comprised of very little of the study routes shown, and for good reason: most of the Delaware Valley is sensitive watershed and Carolinian forest. Hence the reason for a provincial park, 4 conservation areas, and two privately owned natural areas in the immediate area surrounding Delaware. The village itself is one of the oldest in Upper Canada west of Toronto. As such, there was great opposition to any routing west of the city being proposed for the freeway during the assessment stage. I agree that it has not done much for City traffic patterns other that Wellington/Exeter Roads, but the ultimate route chosen was likely the least damaging in terms of social and environmental disruption for a 401 connection west of the city in face of substantial local opposition.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6060/6310768616_e61c032d44_z.jpg

Of course the current route doesn't do a damn thing for anyone travelling in London

That wasn't really the intention of the 402. Its primary function was intended to take the rapidly growing (primarily transport) traffic off of the run from the 401 to the Sarnia border via highways 126/2/81/22. Towns such as Lambeth, Delaware, Mt.Brydges, and Strathroy were being overrun. In current times without the 402 it would be unbearable for these communities. It would also be a serious hindrance to trade at the border.

[haljackey]

blanked post

[Pimpmasterdac]

Route F would have also run right through two major obstacles: a "high-value" natural area and the Wharncliffe-Wonderland-Exeter triangle of doom. I wonder if any of that had an effect on the final decision.

The environmental concerns would be reasonable, except London still has planned a west end north-south freeway on moreless the same route F proposed by the 402 40 years ago. Only different is the city could have had 402 paid 80% by the provincial government and had 1/2 a ring for a ring road. Now anything would be paid by city or have less favourable kick-ins by senior levels of government. 40 years still behind the times

The triangle of doom did not exist at that time, Wonderland had yet to be extended south, Only Exeter & Wharncliffe met.

That wasn't really the intention of the 402. Its primary function was intended to take the rapidly growing (primarily transport) traffic off of the run from the 401 to the Sarnia border via highways 126/2/81/22. Towns such as Lambeth, Delaware, Mt.Brydges, and Strathroy were being overrun. In current times without the 402 it would be unbearable for these communities. It would also be a serious hindrance to trade at the border.

Dead on 402 was to be a trade route to Sarnia was the primary goal, which was the number one goal. The province wanted to kill 2 birds at once though, having 402 being a trade route that would also benefit London as a freeway too. Unfortunately the city sat on its hands for years, allowed the Labatt family to influence the province and move the freeway so far north that would make the costs unpalatable.

Ultimately London squandered any chance of getting a freeway constructed that could've benefited the city, whether in the north and east or southwest, The route picked was out of London until we took over small villages and still doesn't benefit us as an in-city route would.

BTW nice pic of merging that map with a wonder one, how you do that?

[haljackey]

Since there was much discussion that resulted from the 401/402 junction I made in SC4, I whipped up a quick recreation of the Wellington/401 interchange.

Click for full size.
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Haljackey/Interchange/mvfvdfdvfkdvf.jpg (http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Haljackey/Interchange/mvfvdfdvmmfkdvf.png)

Yes, Kokkei Mizu, I included the light towers this time :P

[Pimpmasterdac]

Interesting Article in LFP, ongoing series about transportation.

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/11/20/traffic2.jpg&size=248x186
It was supposed to be a brass ring of highways, a cross-town expressway through north London to speed travel through the city. But you won't find it on any map.

In the 1960s the Ontario government offered to pay 80% of the cost as part of a highway that would wind from the Hwy. 401 to Sarnia.

That ring of a highway was attractive enough to a city council in 1966 voted unanimously in its favour.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/11/20/18994151.html

[manny_santos]

Interesting Article in LFP, ongoing series about transportation.



http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/11/20/18994151.html

It was an interesting read, although it didn't have a whole lot of "new" information. The one thing I didn't know was how low the traffic projections were for the northern leg of the ring road.

I think the northern leg of the ring road would be viable if it were part of a new provincial highway connecting Highway 402 near Strathroy to the planned Highway 7/8 freeway extension between Stratford and Kitchener, as it would provide a new link from K-W and Toronto to the U.S. border, while taking pressure off Highway 401.

In my opinion though, such a highway is a long way off.

[haljackey]

Ya I thought of a similar idea a long way back. Only difference is it connected to 401/403, not 7/8.

Both connections would be a huge asset and would aid both London commuters and long-distance travelers. A win-win for all.

http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/2176/clipboard02s.png

[Symz]

Wow, someone really dropped the ball when it came to road planning for the greater London area eh? I've only visited London, but I have heard a few times from other people that have lived in London that driving around in London is terrible and I didn't even have to ask! They just state it as fact that getting anywhere in London is a tedious process.

[manny_santos]

Wow, someone really dropped the ball when it came to road planning for the greater London area eh? I've only visited London, but I have heard a few times from other people that have lived in London that driving around in London is terrible and I didn't even have to ask! They just state it as fact that getting anywhere in London is a tedious process.

Yes. There are parts of London during rush hour that are as congested as parts of Downtown Toronto. It doesn't need to be that way.

[haljackey]

Yes. There are parts of London during rush hour that are as congested as parts of Downtown Toronto. It doesn't need to be that way.

This is true. I was traveling through downtown Toronto a couple weeks ago and felt like I was driving in my hometown.

-----

A bit of potential relief though, as the city may study building a new rail overpass for the CP line on Adelaide near oxford.

Article here: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/11/22/19006481.html

This should have been done 60 years ago. With the length these studies, proposals, plans take, it will probably be another 20 before the thing is constructed if it was approved today. :yuck:

[Symz]

This is true. I was traveling through downtown Toronto a couple weeks ago and felt like I was driving in my hometown.

-----

A bit of potential relief though, as the city may study building a new rail overpass for the CP line on Adelaide near oxford.

Article here: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/11/22/19006481.html

This should have been done 60 years ago. With the length these studies, proposals, plans take, it will probably be another 20 before the thing is constructed if it was approved today. :yuck:

Windsor is the new owner of 2 new rail overpasses on Walker & Howard roads and it is such a huge difference in quality of life for drivers. We were in the same situation, 'it should have been done many years ago'.

I hope this project goes through for London, it's atleast a step in the right direction.

You could still use a ring road/northern bypass.

[Blitz]

That's an interesting map, haljackey. I bet that's close to how London would look if it was a city in the U.S., where they actually see value in local expressways.

London is the absolute worst for traffic (for its size). So frustrating. Windsor has no traffic problems at all, and I didn't experience too many in Kitchener when I used to work there (although there were some bad days).

[MrSlippery519]

That should have been done years ago as many others would agree, what I do not understand is why would a $200,000 study need to be done to determine where to put the overpass and what it would affect in the area?? I am sure they have done studies in the past for the exact same overpass.

Just by looking at the area an overpass should be no problem at all, the only thing it could effect is one walkway into the park. That money for a study could go a lot further to pay to get the job done.

[haljackey]

That's an interesting map, haljackey. I bet that's close to how London would look if it was a city in the U.S., where they actually see value in local expressways.

London is the absolute worst for traffic (for its size). So frustrating. Windsor has no traffic problems at all, and I didn't experience too many in Kitchener when I used to work there (although there were some bad days).

Both comments are true. Windsor moves traffic quite well, which is crazy because there's both local traffic and border traffic on its streets.

Regarding Kitchener/Waterloo, they have traffic issues too. This mostly because their road system is a mess and just about everything heading to the 401 uses Highway 8 (King Street/King Street Bypass). That means this road is clogged all the time with backups sometimes reaching as far as the 401.

Kitchener CMA is also growing a lot more, but road expansions are being put in place to handle it, something London doesn't do very often. The widening of Highway 8 to 8 lanes and the eventual full grade-separation of the 8/401 interchange will help things though.

In London less traffic goes on the 401 and we have more interchanges. While more convenient none of them are grade-separated (with the exception of 401/VMP which doesn't cut it because there's intersections on the VMP).

London's northern ring road is a pipe dream now. Rail grade-separations are the only way to aid traffic in the city along with costly road-widenings.

Double left turn lanes as I mentioned before can also really aid traffic flow, but they can only be built where there's room, and most intersections have no additional right of way for them.

[manny_santos]

As for railway overpasses, I believe that the Adelaide overpass is the one that is needed the most. The reason for this is the close proximity to the CP Rail yard.

I would place Richmond as a close second, only because it is further away from the CP yard than Adelaide but is arguably of equal, if not greater importance to the city's transportation network to Adelaide.

However, given the pedestrian-oriented nature of that section of Richmond, I would argue that a subway under the railway would be a better idea. I would also bet that would be more costly than putting in a modular overpass that can be built off-site.

An overpass is not warranted at Clarke and Oxford, as there are only five trains per day going through there, and at least two of them are VIA trains which tend to move faster than long freight trains on their way out of a yard.

[haljackey]

Think London drivers could handle this?

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8873/turboplein2.jpg

Instead of pushing for roundabouts we could be pushing for these things called turbopleins!

[ssiguy]

You're map of the 402 is what was originally planned.
When the 402 extension from Sarnia to London was first conceived there was no intention of heading south past Strathroy. The route was suppose to run relatively the same and run just 1 or 2 km north of Fanshawe Park Road/ HWY #22 all the way past London and connect with the current 403 at Woodstock.
The ONLY reason it didn't was due to politics.
The route would have passed Labatt's house and come too close to London's affluent and influential {read bribes} North End.
Even in the 1970s before they started to buy land for the Strathroy to 401 south of London alignment there was a strong movement to take the northern route as originally planned.
Now, of course, that is completely impossible with all the new residential/commercial development north of Fanshawe Park Road. I know this as I was born and raised in Strathroy and my father was a member of the town council and they did not want the southern alignment but he said it was chosen for no other reason than political "persuasion".

[Wharn]

Think London drivers could handle this?

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8873/turboplein2.jpg


I doubt it, since most Londoners are still grappling with the concept of a signalized intersection. Already twice this week I've seen people blow through the Windermere/Richmond intersection when the left turn signal lit up... the loud protestations of drivers turning north onto Richmond did nothing to deter them. Funnily enough both the offenders were driving Dodge Caravans, which actually explains a lot :haha:


However, given the pedestrian-oriented nature of that section of Richmond, I would argue that a subway under the railway would be a better idea. I would also bet that would be more costly than putting in a modular overpass that can be built off-site.

I think any solution to the Richmond/Oxford railway problem will be extremely difficult to implement. First of all, the railway is graded with the street. There's absolutely no embankment to speak of, and no room to build one, which means no easy street subway solution. An overpass would just make a mess of everything and completely wreck the intersection. To build an underpass you'd have to dig up the road and make a huge trench that goes under the railway, with sidewalks on top, kinda like what we have at Richmond and York, which would be very disruptive and very expensive.

Either way you'd also have to create a detour for one of the city's busiest arterials and two of its most heavily used bus routes, which would cause chaos for a couple of months. It's a huge undertaking and not likely to be something city hall is willing to tackle in the near future. Although I agree wholeheartedly with the Adelaide overpass, it really cannot wait any longer.

[manny_santos]

I think any solution to the Richmond/Oxford railway problem will be extremely difficult to implement. First of all, the railway is graded with the street. There's absolutely no embankment to speak of, and no room to build one, which means no easy street subway solution. An overpass would just make a mess of everything and completely wreck the intersection. To build an underpass you'd have to dig up the road and make a huge trench that goes under the railway, with sidewalks on top, kinda like what we have at Richmond and York, which would be very disruptive and very expensive.

Either way you'd also have to create a detour for one of the city's busiest arterials and two of its most heavily used bus routes, which would cause chaos for a couple of months. It's a huge undertaking and not likely to be something city hall is willing to tackle in the near future. Although I agree wholeheartedly with the Adelaide overpass, it really cannot wait any longer.

There is another solution:

- CP could lower the grade of the railway between Talbot Street and Waterloo Street. In theory the track could be lowered to about 3.5 metres (11.5 feet) below Richmond Street, assuming CP Rail used an average grade of 1% downhill heading eastward between Talbot and Richmond and 1% uphill heading eastward between Richmond and Waterloo.

- An overpass would still be required, but far less tall than what would be required right now. If we assume an overpass normally being 20 feet high, an overpass in this scenario could be as low as 8.5 feet (2.6 metres) high. Such an overpass could be built off-site, allowing Richmond to remain open for most of the construction time, and moved into place when it is ready.

- The majority of the disruption in this case would be to CP Rail. They would have to close the railway between the London yard and Windsor for long enough to rip up the railway through the Richmond Street zone, dig a trench and build retaining walls east and west of Richmond Street, and then once the overpass is in place, extend the trench through the overpass and then lay new railroad tracks.

In this case, the intersection of Richmond and Piccadilly would have to be closed, and the crossing on St. George St. would likely have to be closed. From an engineering standpoint this would be very interesting.

With regards to Adelaide St, I would speculate that the intersections of Adelaide and Pall Mall, and Adelaide and the west branch of Central will have to be raised, and the intersection of Adelaide and the east branch of Central will have to be closed.

[Blitz]

Regarding Kitchener/Waterloo, they have traffic issues too. This mostly because their road system is a mess and just about everything heading to the 401 uses Highway 8 (King Street/King Street Bypass). That means this road is clogged all the time with backups sometimes reaching as far as the 401.

That interchange is really annoying, when you're coming from London there's no direct connection to Highway 8 from Highway 401. But if you're coming from Toronto, there is a connection. So you're saying there are plans to eventually fix this?

[haljackey]

That interchange is really annoying, when you're coming from London there's no direct connection to Highway 8 from Highway 401. But if you're coming from Toronto, there is a connection. So you're saying there are plans to eventually fix this?

Yes. I don't want to go off topic but here's a pic of the full interchange in Kitchener.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1460/img0007h800x600.jpg

[Simpseatles]

^Awesome! I'd love to see an interchange like that in London (VMP/401?), but it'll probably never happen.:rolleyes:

[Kokkei Mizu]

- The majority of the disruption in this case would be to CP Rail. They would have to close the railway between the London yard and Windsor for long enough to rip up the railway through the Richmond Street zone, dig a trench and build retaining walls east and west of Richmond Street, and then once the overpass is in place, extend the trench through the overpass and then lay new railroad tracks.

CP would never allow this. That line provides CP a connection between Toronto and Detroit, Chicago and the Midwest US. It has over 20 trains a day... Unless a bypass track was built (possibly north or south of London) to temporarily re-route the train, however, that would add millions to the construction costs.

[Wharn]

CP would never allow this. That line provides CP a connection between Toronto and Detroit, Chicago and the Midwest US. It has over 20 trains a day... Unless a bypass track was built (possibly north or south of London) to temporarily re-route the train, however, that would add millions to the construction costs.

Agreed. There is absolutely no way in hell CP would ever agree to something like this, and if the city coerced them into doing it they would fight it in court and would probably win. Ripping up and rebuilding a railway, especially over that kind of distance, will cost a lot more than the equivalent job for a road.

[haljackey]

The new Sarnia Road bridge opens later today (officially at 4pm).

Although it won't be finished. I don't have a recent picture but I would assume it would only carry one lane per direction while construction stops for the winter. Then it's back to work in the spring!

[go_leafs_go02]

Agreed. There is absolutely no way in hell CP would ever agree to something like this, and if the city coerced them into doing it they would fight it in court and would probably win. Ripping up and rebuilding a railway, especially over that kind of distance, will cost a lot more than the equivalent job for a road.

Absolutely agree with you on this. It would be cheaper to build a new parallel track around the outskirts of London than to do the Richmond & Adelaide crossings. City wants it to happen, but I really wish they'd look into a diversion to the north of London for the CP tracks.

Wouldn't be THAT hard to do: http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=214781041103193630127.0004b2ff5129f6a08065f&msa=0&ll=43.005902,-81.244926&spn=0.213155,0.445976 It does add 6 km onto the total track length however.

[K85]

Just came back from the Sarnia Rd bridge, I like it :) One lane in each direction, but the view driving into town at night is pretty nice :) Good smooth curve, and possibility of expanding later.

[manny_santos]

Just came back from the Sarnia Rd bridge, I like it :) One lane in each direction, but the view driving into town at night is pretty nice :) Good smooth curve, and possibility of expanding later.

I doubt we will have to wait long for the expansion. Last I checked the City of London had widening Sarnia Road from the new bridge to Castlegrove Blvd on the books. I don't know how soon it's happening, but the plans I saw included some reconstruction of the intersection of Sarnia and Wonderland.

[MolsonExport]

Why on earth did they only make Sarnia 3 lanes when they last widened the road in 2005? A-S-I-N-I-N-E. I hate driving home from UWO along that stretch...always somebody wanting to make a left hand turn, and/or having to constantly yield for the snail-speed LTC buses, Assholes whipping past you in the RH lane just to swoop in front of you without indicating....argh!!!

Plus, Western Road(southbound)-->Sarnia Road has got to be the worst right-hand turn in the city, with the traffic coming from 3 angles and students loping, bikes running the light...somebody will get killed there someday soon, mark my words. I have already been rear-ended twice at that intersection.

[Blitz]

^ Definitely....there's always a massive line-up of cars trying to turn there but can't because of the pedestrians. My commute from UWO to downtown at the end of the day is a disgusting 20 minutes long. I continue straight down Western Rd all the way to Riverside and then turn left there because I've found it's actually easier going out of my way like that then it is to try to turn left onto Oxford and waiting through 3 traffic light cycles. Just a complete mess all the way around.

[Wharn]

Plus, Western Road(southbound)-->Sarnia Road has got to be the worst right-hand turn in the city, with the traffic coming from 3 angles and students loping, bikes running the light...somebody will get killed there someday soon, mark my words. I have already been rear-ended twice at that intersection.

Twice? Tough break, Molson, that really sucks. Whenever I need to turn right at that intersection in rush hour, I just weave through Elborn College, and it honestly saves at least 2 minutes (and your sanity). If you ever see a silver Saturn darting through the parking lot then it's probably me.

[manny_santos]

I drove across the new bridge today. It felt good.

Why on earth did they only make Sarnia 3 lanes when they last widened the road in 2005? A-S-I-N-I-N-E. I hate driving home from UWO along that stretch...always somebody wanting to make a left hand turn, and/or having to constantly yield for the snail-speed LTC buses, Assholes whipping past you in the RH lane just to swoop in front of you without indicating....argh!!!

Sarnia Road has actually changed very little since the early 1990s...it has been 3 lanes through that stretch for as long as I can remember.

I remember when Sarnia Road was still gravel west of Wonderland and there was no development. This was as recent as the early 1990s. For me it is interesting to see how this road has evolved from a gravel road with the old one-lane bridge to what it is now in only 20 years.

[go_leafs_go02]

I was a little surprised that they did all the bridge work and didn't bothering rebuilding Sarnia road to Hyde Park Road with the closure. It's still a dinky country road between the overpass and Hyde Park...

I know Traffic Volumes don't warrant it, but that road is an eyesore and certainly could use some improvement...

[haljackey]

I don't know if you guys have been following the 2012 budget story but I came across a very startling statistic:

In 2010, London's road budget was over 40 million (partly due to stimulus money)

In 2012, London's road budget is set to be just 8 million, 5 times less than what we had 2 years ago!

To put that in perspective, it's estimated that the widening of Southdale between Wonderland and Warncliffe will cost 8.5 million. That means if we didn't spend a dime on any other road project we still wouldn't have enough money to do it.

Penny pinching at its max. No major projects next year. Bummer.

[Pimpmasterdac]

:previous:

To be somewhat fair to the city, the feds aren't handing out stimulus/make work money like they were 2 years ago, so the city is limited on what it can do. Seems like 401 interchanges are the next senior level investment by the province

However the city is messing up, pushing/delaying soo many major projects back. Southdale widening was suppose to happen 2012 but was pushed to 2013 earlier this year. Oxford, Hyde Park, Wellington, Commissioners widening need to be done now!! Not another 2-5 years from now.

IMO, city needs to get its priorities straightened out. Build/maintaining roads is one of the most basic and fundamental things a municipality is suppose to do. Instead we have money being pissed away on all these special interest organizations that ought/need to sustain themselves without tax dollars. The other thing is this 1% economic levy, which I wouldn't have a problem with except it goes to asinine projects like a "beach" between Dundas & King by the River and other frills like that which aren't necessary.

The city need get our road network up to 21st century standards, then focus on these opulent wants.

[Wharn]

I was a little surprised that they did all the bridge work and didn't bothering rebuilding Sarnia road to Hyde Park Road with the closure. It's still a dinky country road between the overpass and Hyde Park...

There's really nothing on Sarnia between Wonderland and Hyde Park to warrant an upgrade at the moment, especially with so many other network deficiencies. The main issue was the stupid 1-lane bridge, and that problem has now been rectified. Although I'll admit, it will feel weird having the road suddenly shift from a modern 4-lane arterial to something that looks like an old piece of the Soviet highway system.


To put that in perspective, it's estimated that the widening of Southdale between Wonderland and Warncliffe will cost 8.5 million. That means if we didn't spend a dime on any other road project we still wouldn't have enough money to do it.


Are you sure about that figure? It seems a little outrageous to me. From what I've read, the average grade-separated freeway (ie some of the most expensive roads) costs about $2 million per mile (or $1.25 million per kilometre). The distance between Wonderland and Wharncliffe can't be much more than 1.5 kilometres. Where are all these extra costs coming from? Does it actually take $6 million to throw in some PVC piping and move a few utility poles?

[haljackey]

Yup I'm sure of that figure. The total cost of the project will be nearly 10 million dollars.

You can find the stats here: http://www.london.ca/budget/Budget_2011/2011%20Tax%20Supported%20Approved%20Budget/Growth%20-%202011%20Capital%20Budget%20and%202012%20to%202020%20Forecasts.pdf (Pages 36 and 61)

-500k will be spent on it in 2012 and 7.7 million in 2013. The rest of the money was spent in 2010 and prior.

The stat you have for freeways might just be the resurfacing cost, not sure tough.
-Remember that additional infrastructure will be built as well. Sidewalks, bike lanes, bus bays, sewers/drainage, power/cable, lighting, curbs, etc. Money might also have been spent on property acquisition.

[haljackey]

Sarnia Road on November 30 shortly before it's opening.

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7266/clipboard01zp.jpg

(from the City of London)

[Wharn]

-Remember that additional infrastructure will be built as well. Sidewalks, bike lanes, bus bays, sewers/drainage, power/cable, lighting, curbs, etc. Money might also have been spent on property acquisition.

But the lighting is already there. There is already a road allowance between the properties and Southdale. The power lines are above ground. So all they really need to be concerned with is burying the sewers. Again, considering how expensive highways are, this $8.5 million sum for an urban arterial seems really excessive to me.

[Whisper09]

Not sure if this was mentioned before, but are those double bike lanes, or what? I know one for sure is a bike line, what's the other?

[Snark]

Where are all these extra costs coming from? Does it actually take $6 million to throw in some PVC piping and move a few utility poles?

Why do you believe that's all that is involved in this project?

For that matter, what do forumers here think such work should cost - say - on a per metre unit cost basis?

[manny_santos]

Why do you believe that's all that is involved in this project?

For that matter, what do forumers here think such work should cost - say - on a per metre unit cost basis?

I think what the forumers are asking is why the relative cost of building an urban road is more than the cost of building a rural highway.

So, what all is involved in, let's say, widening Southdale Road? As far as I know, the following are involved in such a project:

- Needs assessment
- Environmental assessment
- Public consultations (sometimes 2 or more)
- Cost assessment
- Engineering
- Property acquisition/expropriation
- Obtaining requests for proposals (RFPs), bidding and awarding of contracts
- Relocation of hydro, cable, and telephone lines, while minimizing disruption to customers
- Removal of old sewer and water lines, while maintaining service to adjacent properties
- Addition of new storm sewer, sanitary sewer, and water lines
- Installation of new curbs
- Paving, twice
- Line painting
- Landscaping (sod, trees, etc.)
- New lighting
- Replacement of traffic signals and signage

I'm sure I've missed a few things.

[Symz]

I think what the forumers are asking is why the relative cost of building an urban road is more than the cost of building a rural highway.

So, what all is involved in, let's say, widening Southdale Road? As far as I know, the following are involved in such a project:

- Needs assessment
- Environmental assessment
- Public consultations (sometimes 2 or more)
- Cost assessment
- Engineering
- Property acquisition/expropriation
- Obtaining requests for proposals (RFPs), bidding and awarding of contracts
- Relocation of hydro, cable, and telephone lines, while minimizing disruption to customers
- Removal of old sewer and water lines, while maintaining service to adjacent properties
- Addition of new storm sewer, sanitary sewer, and water lines
- Installation of new curbs
- Paving, twice
- Line painting
- Landscaping (sod, trees, etc.)
- New lighting
- Replacement of traffic signals and signage

I'm sure I've missed a few things.

That sounds like standard fair as far as any road construction in an urban setting, possibly even more!?

I know in the case of Windsor, at times they have found old street car tracks under the road they are ripping up downtown.. 'Uh, boss, we have a surprise situation'

[Wharn]

I think what the forumers are asking is why the relative cost of building an urban road is more than the cost of building a rural highway.

And of all the items you mentioned, the following would also be included in the construction of any large road:


- Needs assessment
- Environmental assessment
- Public consultations (sometimes 2 or more)
- Cost assessment
- Engineering
- Property acquisition/expropriation
- Obtaining requests for proposals (RFPs), bidding and awarding of contracts
- Paving, twice
- Line painting
- Landscaping (sod, trees, etc.) NOTE: Why is this even here? Where is there ANY notable landscaping on other London roads?


The costs still seem higher than they ought to be, especially considering Southdale isn't really even in a densely populated area. Can someone get a figure that states the average cost of widening arterials in Ontario, so we have a benchmark to compare it to?

[Kokkei Mizu]

Not sure if this was mentioned before, but are those double bike lanes, or what? I know one for sure is a bike line, what's the other?

It appears as though the through lane is a 1.5 lanes wide, then the bike lane, then another 0.5 a lane. I'm guessing once Sarnia Rd is widened, they will move the bike lane to the curb, and will repaint the lines for the extra lane.

[Snark]

And of all the items you mentioned, the following would also be included in the construction of any large road:

Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
I think what the forumers are asking is why the relative cost of building an urban road is more than the cost of building a rural highway.

So, what all is involved in, let's say, widening Southdale Road? As far as I know, the following are involved in such a project:

- Needs assessment
- Environmental assessment
- Public consultations (sometimes 2 or more)
- Cost assessment
- Engineering
- Property acquisition/expropriation
- Obtaining requests for proposals (RFPs), bidding and awarding of contracts
- Relocation of hydro, cable, and telephone lines, while minimizing disruption to customers
- Removal of old sewer and water lines, while maintaining service to adjacent properties
- Addition of new storm sewer, sanitary sewer, and water lines
- Installation of new curbs
- Paving, twice
- Line painting
- Landscaping (sod, trees, etc.)
- New lighting
- Replacement of traffic signals and signage

I'm sure I've missed a few things.


The costs still seem higher than they ought to be, especially considering Southdale isn't really even in a densely populated area. Can someone get a figure that states the average cost of widening arterials in Ontario, so we have a benchmark to compare it to?

That's a pretty good list. A few items of note:

-There is no storm sewer, sanitary sewer, or watermain to require removal. Power and telecom are overhead. Property acquisitions would be minimal, as widenings can be taken from the subdivisions on the south at no cost to the City.

- The road will not only be widened, it will be completely rebuilt and widened. Intersections will see 5 lanes.

- Stormwater infrastructure costs will be substantial.

- Lighting will be doubled to both sides of the street. Existing utility poles will be relocated in all likelihood.

- Separate bikeways on both sides

A very back of the envelope guesstimate in my head says $7M - $9M.

Road/underground construction : $4.75M
Utility pole relocation: $0.35M
SWM: $0.4M
Traffic lighting: $0.3M
Streetlighting: $0.2M
Sound barriers: $0.3M
Consulting fees (engineering, EA, project mgmt): $1.2M
Other (staff time, traffic control, etc): $0.15M
Contingency: $0.75m

The true cost of the work won't be known until the EA is complete, and preliminary design begins. The $10M figure is a conservative placeholder, as nobody wants to go back to council and request more money. When that happens, the headline in the paper the next day is typically: "Project Spirals Out Of Control Before It Begins". Better to budget a little high and give some back at the end. That's the optics of the biz.

[go_leafs_go02]

Well, two roads that actually had "real" speed limits have had them reduced.

Fanshawe Park Road from pretty much Hyde Park Road east to Richmond has been lowered from 80 or 70 down to 60.

Col. Talbot has been lowered from 80 down to 70 from Southdale down to Lambeth. 70's pretty reasonable, but 80 was alot more appropriate for a rural roadway.

Honestly, I'm starting to think speed limits in Ontario are whatever is posted plus 15. Speed limit 80? You go 95. etc etc etc.

[haljackey]

London police have released their annual stats on the top 10 crash prone intersections in the city

1. Wonderland Rd. and Oxford St.
2. Highbury Ave. and Oxford St.
3. Wellington Rd. and Commissioners Rd.
4. Exeter Rd. and Wellington Rd.
5. Adelaide St. and Oxford St.
6. Commissioners Rd. and Wharncliffe Rd.
7. Hamilton Rd. and Highbury Ave.
8. Sarnia Rd. and Wonderland Rd.
9. Fanshawe Rd. and Richmond St.
10. Oxford St. and Wharncliffe Rd.

Full story here:
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2012/01/25/19293396.html


I think Wonderland and Oxford is an excellent candidate for a multi-lane roundabout as there is a lot of turning traffic. Waterloo Region has implemented many of these and they excel at improving both the efficiency and safety of these junctions.

[go_leafs_go02]

I think Wonderland and Oxford is an excellent candidate for a multi-lane roundabout as there is a lot of turning traffic. Waterloo Region has implemented many of these and they excel at improving both the efficiency and safety of these junctions.

Absolutely NOT. Roundabouts are excellent in smaller locations, but Oxford and Wonderland would require a minimum of 3 lanes in the roundabout, and would be a gong-show from day 1 on.

Waterloo doesn't put roundabouts on busy urban arterials as of yet, but rather in rural or highly suburban locations where 1 or 2 lanes suits best.

They're great if everyone knows how to use them, but a roundabout there, at this point, with present drivers education, would be one of the worst decisions the City of London could do. Baby steps with these... Start with 1 lanes, then go up to 2 lanes with low traffic, and then implement them.

Solution is to have dual left turn lanes in certain locations and have them fully protected (ie the WB Fanshawe Park LT onto SB Wonderland)

Plus, expropriation of the adjacent land in the area would be HUGE. roundabouts tend to take up more space than an intersection, especially if we're talking a three laned one.

[MrSlippery519]

Well, two roads that actually had "real" speed limits have had them reduced.

Fanshawe Park Road from pretty much Hyde Park Road east to Richmond has been lowered from 80 or 70 down to 60.

Col. Talbot has been lowered from 80 down to 70 from Southdale down to Lambeth. 70's pretty reasonable, but 80 was alot more appropriate for a rural roadway.

Honestly, I'm starting to think speed limits in Ontario are whatever is posted plus 15. Speed limit 80? You go 95. etc etc etc.

Ontario speed limits are a joke, generally speaking if you are going 19 over or less you are not getting pulled over. I have never understood the logic in this...on the 401 for instance why not increase the speed limit to 120km/h and actually start pulling people over for speeding?
It has been documented in many US locations that by increasing the speed limit it does not increase actual car speeds at the same rate. Basically now the average speed on the 401 is lets say 120...you increase the speed to 120 and now the average speed is 126 because people are comfortable at those speeds.

[MrSlippery519]

I think Wonderland and Oxford is an excellent candidate for a multi-lane roundabout as there is a lot of turning traffic. Waterloo Region has implemented many of these and they excel at improving both the efficiency and safety of these junctions.

I actually agree with this, I think London needs to strongly consider following the waterloo regions lead on roundabouts. Another location I feel could use a multi-lane roundabout is Wonderland and Wharncliffe. No left turn lanes on Wonderland for some reason which really backs up traffic (I drive past this intersection daily as I work just up the street)

[haljackey]

Most of the 400-series Highways have a design speed of 130-150km/h. Posting it at 100 makes you feel as if you are driving too slow. I support an increase to 120, which is usually the speed being done now on rural stretches of our freeways.


Another location I feel could use a multi-lane roundabout is Wonderland and Wharncliffe. No left turn lanes on Wonderland for some reason which really backs up traffic (I drive past this intersection daily as I work just up the street)

Actually there's a study going on in the Southwest Area Plan to convert the "triangle of death" (Warncliffe, Wonderland and Exeter) into one large roundabout/rotary road. That would get rid of the odd turning angles and backup.

[go_leafs_go02]

Actually there's a study going on in the Southwest Area Plan to convert the "triangle of death" (Warncliffe, Wonderland and Exeter) into one large roundabout/rotary road. That would get rid of the odd turning angles and backup.

I'd be definitely more supportive of a roundabout at Wharncliffe and Wonderland due to the more rural feeling and lower traffic volumes at that point. It could likely support a 2 lane roundabout, which I think is feasible. Expropriation would be easy to do due to plenty of land that would be available, particularly on the northwest and southeast quadrants.

The City is proposing btw to have a roundabout constructed at Hyde Park & Sunningdale. I am more than fully supportive of that, but as I've re-iterated in the past, baby steps are necessary to implement these in North America.

[MrSlippery519]

Actually there's a study going on in the Southwest Area Plan to convert the "triangle of death" (Warncliffe, Wonderland and Exeter) into one large roundabout/rotary road. That would get rid of the odd turning angles and backup.

That would be great, hopefully it's a two lane roundabout they are looking at which would make the most sense. I hope to see this get going sooner than later as this area is getting more and more traffic with all of the construction going on. Add in the 401/Wonderland exchange something needs to be changed at the "triangle"

[go_leafs_go02]

That would be great, hopefully it's a two lane roundabout they are looking at which would make the most sense. I hope to see this get going sooner than later as this area is getting more and more traffic with all of the construction going on. Add in the 401/Wonderland exchange something needs to be changed at the "triangle"

Here's a rather interesting plan, that I actually love.

Wharncliffe from London will realign and actually meet some new roads north of Lambeth, and meet again with Longwoods west of Lambeth. Essentially a Lambeth bypass.

Main Street in Lambeth will no longer connect to Wharncliffe, but rather turn into Exeter

http://www.london.ca/Planning_and_Development/PDFs/Area_Plans/SWAP_Illustrative_mplan_apr27.pdf

I can't see a one way rotary working at this location, but this proposed plan is pretty good. Yes, it will involve 2 additional turns (one right, one left) if you want to take Wharncliffe's old routing, BUT it provides a new northern bypass for Old Highway 2 traffic around Lambeth, and removes the awkward intersection of Wonderland & Wharncliffe.

[Wharn]

Ontario speed limits are a joke, generally speaking if you are going 19 over or less you are not getting pulled over. I have never understood the logic in this...on the 401 for instance why not increase the speed limit to 120km/h and actually start pulling people over for speeding?

I guess whoever is legislating speed limits hasn't heard of the 85% rule.

Traffic engineers say that you should design roads and set speed limits so that the fastest 15% of drivers are criminalized. Way more than 15% of all drivers are doing 100+, which leads me to believe the stupidly low speed limits are either some revenue-generating measure, or an informal limit that the government points to when it wants to convince lobby groups that it's enforcing "safe driving". Or some combination of the two. Either way, the 400-series highways are designed for speeds up to 140 km/h, the limits ought to be at least 120. Britain now has an 80 MPH (128 km/h) speed limit on their dinky little motorways, why can't we have the same thing?

Although that being said I think 100 km/h is an appropriate limit for built-up areas, and for inclement weather (although how you would define the latter is beyond me).

[go_leafs_go02]

Been a few accidents on the Glanworth Curve on Wellington Road south of London. Including one over the weekend that included 2 fatalities.

I'm wondering if that curve is too sharp and perhaps a new alignment to bypass those two curves should be done.

Lowering the speed limit will do little/nothing to help. People will always drive what they feel comfortable - unless you have extremely heavy enforcement.

Quick concept showing realignment and a more gentler curve

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=214781041103193630127.0004b8df44bf44c2a02e4&msa=0&ll=42.864217,-81.205423&spn=0.009578,0.01929

[K85]

People are just STUPID going around that curve... That's all. It isn't as bad as people lead on, it's just those that drive it and crash over estimate their cars. I have a hemi charger, and when it first started snowing, I went to Sparta with the gf. I took that bend no more than 60. I knew one tap of the gas I was gone. I took my time, made it out fine. On the way back, a fool in a van was reversed into a ditch. "I wasn't going fast, I just dunno what happened" he said as I pulled over to help...

Guardrails only would work.

[haljackey]

This ain't no country road anymore, it's an important regional connection and a major commuter route.

Upgrades should be put in, and a new alignment would be best for both safety and efficiency of traffic flow. Guardrails are better than nothing as well.

I'm sure the more accidents/attention this stretch gets, the more likely something will be done about it.

[Kokkei Mizu]

Quick concept showing realignment and a more gentler curve

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=214781041103193630127.0004b8df44bf44c2a02e4&msa=0&ll=42.864217,-81.205423&spn=0.009578,0.01929

I like that concept, but not just because of the gentler curves. I've always thought it was stupid how Glanworth Drive (which is a major road), has a jog to get across Wellington. Your solution would fix this problem. It would make it much easier to install traffic lights too. No more approaching a stop sign, to turn left into busy traffic, and then as soon as you get a spot, slow down to turn right and frustrate the drivers behind you.

[go_leafs_go02]

I like that concept, but not just because of the gentler curves. I've always thought it was stupid how Glanworth Drive (which is a major road), has a jog to get across Wellington. Your solution would fix this problem. It would make it much easier to install traffic lights too. No more approaching a stop sign, to turn left into busy traffic, and then as soon as you get a spot, slow down to turn right and frustrate the drivers behind you.

That realignment to make Wellington the through road likely was done decades ago (1960s was my guess) when traffic volumes were significantly lower.

Wondering what the design speed of the curve is. The easternmost curve definitely has a tighter radius compared to the other curve.

[go_leafs_go02]

BTW, who decided to add the Wonderland Road interchange on Highway 401 to google maps? It's not even built yet. Probably should get removed...

[Wharn]

I have a hemi charger

Wow... I'm jelly

That realignment to make Wellington the through road likely was done decades ago (1960s was my guess) when traffic volumes were significantly lower.

It was probably done to correct for an old dogleg in the road. Wellington looks like it originally jogged west at Glansworth when the lot lines changed, but I suppose as it became the more important road, they decided to eliminate it. There are tons of arterials in suburban Toronto with these "swoops" at intersections to correct for the old alignments, but none are nearly as sharp as this.

[haljackey]

BTW, who decided to add the Wonderland Road interchange on Highway 401 to google maps? It's not even built yet. Probably should get removed...

Looked and I didn't see anything.... then on the close zooms, what?

With all the effort I did trying to get Highbury and the VMP to be shown as what they actually are, I'm surprised whoever did this managed to get it approved.

Now let's get some new imagery for London. It's nearly 6 years old.

[manny_santos]

Looked and I didn't see anything.... then on the close zooms, what?

With all the effort I did trying to get Highbury and the VMP to be shown as what they actually are, I'm surprised whoever did this managed to get it approved.

Now let's get some new imagery for London. It's nearly 6 years old.

The way Google Mapmaker is run is a joke. I left the site in early December after a "Google Reviewer" quietly went and destroyed all the changes we had made, most notably converting York/Florence/Dundas back to a National Highway. There's nothing national about a series of roads that used to be signed as Highway 2 (itself once a provincial, not national highway), that is a relatively minor east-west corridor compared with Oxford Street. I, as well as others (including our own go_leafs_go02) had done so much work on fixing the London-area maps, and yet everything got wiped out with no explanation. And yet really stupid edits keep getting approved with no explanation. The place is run like Wikipedia - a bunch of people with no knowledge about a topic get to make all the decisions while knowledgeable people get marginalized.

I submitted a complaint about the London-area imagery months ago. Never got a reply.

[go_leafs_go02]

I gave up on there too. I was focused on changing the priority of alot of former provincial highways into regional highways, as most were listed as major arterials. Alot got denied, and it was frustrating for sure....

But I guess, how can that system be run better? I don't know how, without having it possible for google maps to be hacked by a large group...