[M II A II R II K]

A thread to discuss road developments and issues.

[SlickFranky]

How about | Transportation rather than roads :D

[M II A II R II K]

It is posted, if London gets a local these London threads will be moved into it.

[ssiguy]

London Roads?.......................I never knew London had any roads or atleast not the type wider than one lane in each direction.

Seriously, London has to be one of the worse cities to get around day or night, certainly it's the worse in Ontario. Atleast in other Ontario cities if the traffic is moving but even later at night becaause thjere are lights every other block and the roads never connect and there is no way to get downtown on one road from different parts of the city. All roads that go downtown end there.

[MolsonExport]

the roads most often do not connect. Heck, you've got Highbury in the east and Wonderland in the West...as the only two North-South roads that completely cross the city! Same thing East west: Only Oxford and Fanshawe park road do this. Incredible, for a city of 353,000. The ditch that is the Thames is no excuse.

[ldoto]

:previous:
I was wondering then London will get a highway ring road !!!!!!:haha:

[eternallyme]

:previous:
I was wondering then London will get a highway ring road !!!!!!:haha:

Is it really necessary though? How much development is planned on the northern and eastern sides of London? I agree a new connection from Fanshawe Park to Airport Road is necessary, but a full freeway? Also where would the northern section go?

Through traffic is well served by Highways 401 and 402, and there isn't a lot of north-south through traffic.

[manny_santos]

London traffic congestion is reaching alarming levels, and it's getting worse by the month. Last week I was on Oxford in the late afternoon which I hadn't been in some time, and the lineup heading westbound was lined up bumper-to-bumper all the way from Wonderland to the top of the hill just west of Cherryhill Blvd. I was heading eastbound and there was no accident or construction, just volume. Used to be the lineup only went as far as Proudfoot.

Granted, I know problems there include the short green light on Oxford at Wonderland, and that a massive number of people turn left at Wonderland. Still, that road has not changed since 1966 when it was widened to its current configuration, in a time when there was far less development in the west end. It's long overdue to widen to six lanes.

Or, we can widen Riverside to four lanes, and extend Sarnia Road to Huron Street.

[ldoto]

:previous: YES it is really necessary!!!!!!!:yes:

[FazDeH]

^^^ You guys think Oxford is bad right now? there will be construction until the end of October from Cherryhill to Richmond starting today. Can't wait until the construction gets to Wharncliffe and Oxford, that intersection already takes 10 minutes to get through at rush hour, with reduced lanes.... FML

[ldoto]

:previous: Yes you are right!!!!!:yes:

Anyone used to travelling down Oxford Street will face slowdowns and increased rush hour wait time beginning today.

Roadwork on the major artery will affect traffic for several months, as two phases of necessary infrastructure projects are completed.

Phase one is focused on major underground infrastructure between Platts Lane and Lane Street. Phase two, which begins at the same time but will take longer to complete, is targeted on repairs and an overhaul of the Norman A. Bradford bridge spanning the Thames River between Lane Street and Richmond Street.

Both phases will require Oxford Street to be reduced to one lane in each direction, and motorists are advised to seek alternate routes to avoid slowdowns, especially during the morning and afternoon rush hours.

"The infrastructure work, although sure to be a great inconvenience to drivers, is absolutely necessary and unavoidable," says Dave Leckie, Director of Roads and Transportation. "The reality is Oxford Street needs work, and we are doing our very best to ensure the least disruption possible to traffic flow in the area."

The Oxford Street rehabilitation is one of 100 road improvements being undertaken this year, as a result of increased provincial and federal funding for infrastructure projects.

[MolsonExport]

^sounds like a recipe for disaster. One of only 2 East-West thru streets down to one lane. Yeah. Seek alternate routes???? Brilliant.

[ldoto]

Thursday, April 23

THIS JUST IN: The intersection of Commissioners Road and Wharncliffe Road South will be the site of sewer repairs this Thursday, April 23. The repair work will begin at approximately 7:30 a.m. and continue all day. Both morning and afternoon rush-hour traffic will be affected, and traffic in all four directions will be reduced to one lane of travel. Motorists are advised to seek alternate routes to avoid the intersection or expect delays.:yuck:

[manny_santos]

Adding to what I said before about London's growing traffic congestion crisis - today I drove south on Richmond from UWO to Oxford, and the northbound lineup waiting at Huron Street stretched almost all the way to Grosvenor, over halfway to Oxford. Once again, pure volume, no accident or anything. And again, in four years at Western, I've never seen it this bad.

London seriously has to get its a** moving on rapid transit, or London's future includes Richmond being lined up solidly from Sunningdale Road to Horton Street, and Oxford being lined up from Adelaide Street out to Komoka.

[MolsonExport]

one thing about London transit that pisses me off is buses blocking roads. You can't win. Get in the RH lane, and get stuck behind a crawling bus. Get in the LH lane, and-yup, you guessed it!-some dipshit needs to make a left-hand turn. Richmond, Wharncliffe are particularly bad on these points.

[Stevo26]

one thing about London transit that pisses me off is buses blocking roads. You can't win. Get in the RH lane, and get stuck behind a crawling bus. Get in the LH lane, and-yup, you guessed it!-some dipshit needs to make a left-hand turn. Richmond, Wharncliffe are particularly bad on these points.

I experience precisely the same thing every friggin' morning when I drive to the office downtown. I used to take some back streets down to Springbank, only to find the left-hand turn lane for Wharncliffe was consistently totally jammed and took forever to clear.

Oddly enough, if I turn right onto Springbank from Wharncliffe and head west in the late afternoon, it's very fast with virtually no traffic at all.

So now I drive up Wharncliffe. On the (now increasingly rarer) days when traffic on Wharncliffe is light, I can get to work in about ten minutes. On days when traffic is heavy, try twenty plus. If it wasn't for the bottleneck just north of Horton which cuts Wharncliffe down to one lane heading northbound, the problems you describe simply wouldn't happen.

Then again, the bozos who seem to sleep when red lights turn green during morning rush hour don't help any.

It bothers me knowing city council is content with doing absolutely nothing to address the increasing problem of congestion. Guess a performing arts centre, suing the engineers who botched Springbank Dam, and the Sifton Bog deer cull debate are more important. :hell:

[SlickFranky]

That single northbound lane would be extremely expensive to expand. If you haven't noticed, the width is limited by a rail-line underpass. The bottleneck there is physical, and can't easily be corrected. Try taking Bruce over to Wortley, or Horton to Ridout...the nice thing about a grid pattern is there are always options.

[ldoto]

Wed, May 13, 2009

A debate that could save taxpayers $5 million a year for 20 years has begun at city hall with the Urban League of London backing a recommendation by city brass to shift the costs of new roads from taxpayers to developers. :tup: :tup: :tup:

"It's not chump change," the Urban League's Sandy Levin told city politicians in a gallery packed with members of the development and construction industry.

Along with other proposed changes, the shift in road costs would increase 
the development charge paid by each builder for each new home from $17,005 
to $22,921.


While the London Home Builders Association has asked city hall to phase in
 the increase, city staff recommend doing it all at once when new charges 
take force Aug. 4.

[Stevo26]

Wed, May 13, 2009

A debate that could save taxpayers $5 million a year for 20 years has begun at city hall with the Urban League of London backing a recommendation by city brass to shift the costs of new roads from taxpayers to developers. :tup: :tup: :tup:

"It's not chump change," the Urban League's Sandy Levin told city politicians in a gallery packed with members of the development and construction industry.

Along with other proposed changes, the shift in road costs would increase 
the development charge paid by each builder for each new home from $17,005 
to $22,921.


While the London Home Builders Association has asked city hall to phase in
 the increase, city staff recommend doing it all at once when new charges 
take force Aug. 4.

Good idea in principle, although developers will simply pass on the cost to their customers. One way or another, you'll pay for those roads - either by increased taxes or through the price of a new home or condo.

On the other hand, developers should be treated like every other taxpayer. When was the last time you saw a hike in municipal rates gradually phased in?

[ldoto]

Mon, May 25, 2009

Road closings

Bradley Avenue from Jackson Road to city limits: Water main, road.

King Street from Adelaide Street to Hewitt Street: road

King Street from Hewitt Street to Rectory Street: Water main, sewers, road

Mamelon Street from Hamilton Road to Nelson Street: Water main, sewers, road




Mornington Avenue from Quebec Street to Oxford Street: Water main, sewers, road

Ridout Street from Windsor Avenue to Belhaven Road: Water main, sewers, road

[ilp]

What is everyone's thoughts about a redesign of Wellington Street/Road from the 401 gateway (Exeter) to the downtown (SoHo)?

I'm working on my undergraduate project and would like some input.

[harryc]

When we visited London a few years ago I drove, for a day London traffic isn't (wasn't) all that bad - except - the friggin traffic circle, with circles around it, outside of Heathrow.

[MolsonExport]

yep we here hate that there Heathrow.

[ldoto]

Mon, June 1, 2009


Detours and delays caused by road projects in London:

ROAD CLOSINGS

Bradley Avenue from Jackson Road to city limits

King Street from Adelaide Street to Hewitt Street

King Street from Hewitt Street to Rectory Street :(

Mamelon Street from Hamilton Road to Nelson Street

Mornington Avenue from Quebec Street to Oxford Street

Ridout Street South from Windsor Avenue to Belhaven Road

EXPECT DELAYS

Albany Street from Ashland Avenue to McCormick Boulevard

Ashland Avenue from Dundas Street to north of Albany Street

Bradley Avenue from Pond Mills Road to Arran Place

Bridlington Road from Adswood Place to Bexhill Drive

Carlton Avenue from William Street to west end end

Clarke Road from Avalon Street to Oxford Street east

Deveron Crescent from Oregon Road to Almond Road south

Dieppe Street from Gladstone Avenue to King Edward Avenue

Everglade Crescent from Cypress Avenue to Woodhaven Road

Finsbury Crescent from Friars Way to Friars Way

Gleeson Street from Ashland Avenue to east limit

Hansuld Street from First Street to Second Street

Highbury Avenue north from Calvin Street to CN Rail tracks

Highbury Avenue south from Scotland Drive to Westminster Drive

Jalna Boulevard northeast leg from Ernest Avenue to Bradley Avenue

Keyhill Place from Keyhill Road to end

Keyhill Road from Homestead Crescent to Homestead Crescent

King Edward Avenue from Veronica Avenue to Dieppe Street

Lysanda Avenue from Deveron Crescent to Worthington Avenue

Mahogany Road from Woodborough Street to Cypress Avenue

Malborough Avenue from Veronica Avenue to Thompson Road

McCormick Boulevard from Dundas Street to Princess Avenue

Osborne Street from Ashland Avenue to east limit

Oxford Street west from Lane Street to Richmond Street

Oxford Street west from Platt's Lane to Lane Street

Oxford Street west, Kilworth bridge over the Thames River

Pall Mall Street from Colborne Street to William Street

Princess Avenue from Elizabeth Street to English Street

Princess Avenue from McCormick Boulevard to east limit

Princess Avenue from Quebec Street to Burbrook Place

Southdale Road east from Pond Mills Road to Millbank Drive

Southdale Road east from Wharncliffe Road to Ernest Avenue

Sparton Street from Ashland Avenue to east limit

Veronica Street from west limit to King Edward Avenue

Wellington Road from Grand Avenue to Bond Street

Westlake Street from Chesterfield Street to King Edward Avenue

William Street from Oxford Street to St. James Street

[ldoto]

City Councillors will vote next week on a recommendation to allow overnight parking in London during summer months.

The concept, which has been around in one form or another for more than 10 years, was approved yesterday by members of the Environment and Transportation Committee.

It was tabled by Councillor Cheryl Miller and despite previous setbacks, she thinks this time -- the proposal may receive approval from full Council.

If the proposal is approved by full Council on Monday, overnight parking would be allowed city wide throughout the summer until Labour Day.

Owner of Aroma Restaurant on Richmond, Phillipe, says allowing customers to leave their cars overnight would be an enormous benefit for his business.

"One of the problems we find is that when people aren't able to leave their cars overnight, many times they'll make mistakes by driving their car home while impaired".

And owner of Fitz Ray's, Mark McGonigle, says it's unfair to ticket those who are making the safer choice.

"I understand if people are leaving the cars for more than a day. But if it's just for the night then I don't know why they'd be penalized just for trying to get home safe and not jeopardize the lives of others.

London Police Chief Murray Faulkner is willing to give it a try for a few months but is concerned about theft from vehicles.

The proposal goes before council later this month.

[Blitz]

^ I don't understand why London has this bylaw in the first place, I've never heard of another city that has it. What if people don't have driveways, where are they supposed to park?

[Millstone]

^ I don't understand why London has this bylaw in the first place, I've never heard of another city that has it. What if people don't have driveways, where are they supposed to park?

If people don't have driveways they would already know the precarious situation they face of finding a place for their vehicle at night. Or they would not own a vehicle. Driving is not a right.

Oh, and Hamilton has the same bylaw so streets can get cleaned at night.



It bothers me knowing city council is content with doing absolutely nothing to address the increasing problem of congestion. Guess a performing arts centre, suing the engineers who botched Springbank Dam, and the Sifton Bog deer cull debate are more important. :hell:

Yes, a vibrant downtown *is* more important than serving the automobile.

[manny_santos]

For environmental reasons I support allowing the cars to be parked on the road. In my case we have two cars but we have a narrow driveway and two-car garage. Almost nightly we have to shuffle cars around (depending who has been out and when) which we wouldn't have to do if we could leave one on the road overnight. And of course by shuffling them around, both have to be started and run for a short period of time, which is a needless use of fossil fuels.

I was in Mexico City recently and cars legally line both sides of streets including at night, and locals I talked to were shocked about London not allowing it, at least in the summer.

And from a drinking and driving perspective, I support Cheryl Miller, but I'm thinking more of house parties. I'll never forget one I went to last summer where one of the guests who parked outside drove home impaired, and drove someone else home too. Thankfully nothing happened but I think it's possible this person would have stayed overnight if they could have left their car on the road.

[Blitz]

I was in Mexico City recently and cars legally line both sides of streets including at night, and locals I talked to were shocked about London not allowing it, at least in the summer.

I was shocked when I learned about it a few years ago too. There are thousands of homes in Windsor that don't have driveways and there's nowhere else to park but on the street. To accommodate street cleaning, residents are required to alternate what side of the road they park on every month based on the signs.

If people don't have driveways they would already know the precarious situation they face of finding a place for their vehicle at night. Or they would not own a vehicle. Driving is not a right.

People have a right to own a car. Leaving cars on the street at night causes no harm and the cleaning argument makes little sense considering how infrequently residential streets are cleaned.

[SlickFranky]

For environmental reasons I support allowing the cars to be parked on the road. In my case we have two cars but we have a narrow driveway and two-car garage. Almost nightly we have to shuffle cars around (depending who has been out and when) which we wouldn't have to do if we could leave one on the road overnight. And of course by shuffling them around, both have to be started and run for a short period of time, which is a needless use of fossil fuels.

No offense, but that's a pretty ridiculous argument. If you have 2 cars, and a 2 car garage...what difference does it make how narrow your driveway is? Is one garage bay not connected to the driveway or something? Even if that was the case, it's hard to make an 'environmental' argument for free public parking for your excess private vehicles. The real 'environmental' solution is to lose a car.

That said, I absolutely support overnight street-side parking, as it is entirely harmless.

[MolsonExport]

It would have been better for Tim Best to keep his vehicle parked overnight, for example.

[go_leafs_go02]

I am a strong opposer to on-street parking at night.

Just head to hamilton in the winter and see how the roadways fare.

I'm fine with it in summer months, but for snow removal, and vehicles on the roadway are a huge hazard. London does it right. besides, it's only 2.5 hours per day..2 to 5:30 AM I believe.

I'd be fine with them permitting on-street overnight parking only from April to October, and on New Years Eve to accommodate people who had too much to drink at a party. I have friends from hamilton (and I'm a Londoner) who are so impressed and wowed that we have driveable streets in the winter.

[manny_santos]

No offense, but that's a pretty ridiculous argument. If you have 2 cars, and a 2 car garage...what difference does it make how narrow your driveway is? Is one garage bay not connected to the driveway or something? Even if that was the case, it's hard to make an 'environmental' argument for free public parking for your excess private vehicles. The real 'environmental' solution is to lose a car.

That said, I absolutely support overnight street-side parking, as it is entirely harmless.

Whoops, typo on my part - I meant to say we DON'T have a two-car garage.

Losing one car would not be practical in a city with such lousy public transit. I have always said if I moved to Toronto, I would not bring a car with me.

[manny_santos]

People have a right to own a car. Leaving cars on the street at night causes no harm and the cleaning argument makes little sense considering how infrequently residential streets are cleaned.

Streets like mine - a non-collector - are cleaned once per year, usually in May.

[Snark]

People have a right to own a car. Leaving cars on the street at night causes no harm and the cleaning argument makes little sense considering how infrequently residential streets are cleaned.

Yes, people have a right to own a car, sofa, television, dog, hovercraft, or microscope. However, the City or any of your other neighbours do not have any obligation to allow you to store any of your stuff on their property. You own/lease/rent land? Then keep your stuff on your property (including the dog). Not enough space on your property? Don't buy so much stuff (including a dog, or a car).

A public highway is not a facility for private use. If anyone, including the City happens to grant it to you, it is a bonus - not a right.

[ldoto]

Nearly $100M in stimulus projects includes city-hall upgrade

Fri, June 5, 2009

The largest public-works spending boom in London's history will deliver relief to long-suffering drivers, open new lands to industry, sink millions into sewers and even fix up city hall.

Nearly $100 million in projects — 42 in all — were announced today, the result of government efforts to lift an economy burdened by the recession. :tup:

London taxpayers will be on the hook for about $30 million of the total cost, with Ottawa and Queen's Park paying the rest.

About 2,000 construction jobs are expected to be created.

The work includes $11.85 million for a railway overpass at Hale and Trafalgar streets, a rail crossing that's long been a source of frustration for London drivers. :tup:



Two of the largest projects, including the most costly one, will go to service new lands in city-owned industrial parks — one at the airport, the other near Highbury Avenue and the Highway 401.

Both industrial parks are key to a city plan to try to reposition London as an international cargo and business gateway in the next economy.

One project sure to raise eyebrows — the No. 5 by dollar amount — is a nearly $5-million upgrade to city hall itself. While the 1960s-era building is much older than city halls in some comparable cities, critics — and taxpayers — may wonder how fixing it up lifts the economy, especially with so many other worthy projects out there. :koko:

[SlickFranky]

The work includes $11.85 million for a railway overpass at Hale and Trafalgar streets, a rail crossing that's long been a source of frustration for London drivers. :tup:



Just out of curiosity, do the freight rail companies ever put any money into these rail over/underpasses, or are they entirely publicly funded?

With all the problems level crossings cause in London, we should be charging some kind of toll for every time a train drives on our streets. Maybe this would encourage CN and CP to build new routes around London, rather than cruising right through.

[ldoto]

Rip it up

TRAFFIC WOES: London is poised to launch the biggest roadwork season in its history

Wonderland Rd. and Gainsborough Rd. facing north. Wonderland will be widened.

The mother of all construction seasons in London has begun with a record $150 million to be spent on road-related work alone.

Orange traffic cones, not purple crocuses, will signal the approaching spring, one certain to fray the patience of drivers even though few would question the long-term benefit of improving roads and the sewers and water mains beneath them.

This year city hall staff have produced what they hope will help motorists find alternatives and avoid traffic jams, an interactive website that allows drivers to click on any road project and see exactly where it is -- www.london.ca/construction. "The public should be urged to go to the website," city roads director Dave Leckie said Wednesday.

Here's the breakdown of the planned spending, some of which comes from government economic stimulus funding:


$100 million-plus to repave and widen streets and rehabilitate bridges.

$30 million to replace and reline sewers.

$19 to replace and line water mains.


There will be 100 projects in all and one of the biggest has already begun -- the building of a railway overpass at Hale and Trafalgar streets that will have the city's first roundabout, an effort whose costs this year alone are expected to reach $13 million.

There have been other years with nearly as much road-related work, but 2010 tops them all, Leckie said.

While some motorists may get frustrated by delays, they should find far fewer potholes, Leckie said. "I'm looking forward to (that)."

As for road delays, city staff say they're doing what they can to make it better than it would be otherwise. Among the efforts:


Leckie put off the planned repaving of Wavell St. to next year because it'll be in heavier use with the closing of the Hale-Trafalgar crossing.

Road, sewer and water work will be co-ordinated so that roads are only disrupted once.

When water mains are worked on in isolation, crews will typically install liners within existing pipes without digging a trench, the mechanical equivalent of minimally invasive surgery because it's cheaper and won't close long stretches of streets for a long time.


This year city crews will make use of a new liner made by 3M they hope will provide a structural lining just along weak spots.

"I'm really excited about it," said John Braam, who manages the city's water operations, All the extra work will pay off in more ways than just better roads and sewers, staff say.

Some of the extra work was made affordable by federal and provincial stimulus money, which covers two-thirds of the costs of some projects that otherwise would have been done in future years.

By doing the work now, and at a lower cost, city hall will have more money to spend five to 10 years from now on major public works that could help London to rebuild an economy stressed by recession and the battering of its manufacturing sector.

--- --- ---

THE TOP PROJECTS

1. Hale/Trafalgar

What: Rail overpass that will be city's first roundabout

Cost: $13 million

Timing: Feb.-Nov.

2. Wonderland Rd. N.

What: Widen to four lanes north of Gainsborough

Cost: $10 million

Timing: April-Nov.

3. Dundas St. E.

What: Replace watermain east of Clarke; road construction east of Crumlin

Cost: $3.5 million

Timing: May-Sept.

4. Trevithen St.

What: Replace road and pipes

Cost: $4.5 million

Timing: March-Oct.

5. White Oaks Rd.

What: Replace sewer south of Exeter Rd.

Cost: $3 million

Timing: May-Oct.

6. Innovation Industrial Park

What: Next phase of development

Cost: $12 million

Timing: Feb.-Nov.

7. Skyway Industrial Subdivison

What: Next phase of development

Cost: $5 million

Timing: May-Sept.

--- --- ---

Other


What: Reline 5 km of water pipe


Cost: $2.5 million

Timing: May-Sept.


What: Reline 40-50 km of sewer pipe


Cost: $6.6 million

Timing: March-Nov.


What: Replace asphalt for 15 sections of major roads and many smaller roads


Cost: $15 million

Timing: April-Nov.

[manny_santos]

About time that part of Wonderland is widened. That was on the books way back when that section was called Cameron Sideroad.

[MolsonExport]

Christ, I look forward to the day (if it ever comes) when there are more than two (2!!) clear east-west and north-south routes in the city. all we have currently are Fanshawe pk road and oxford (E-W), and Wonderland and Highbury (north-south).

[manny_santos]

Christ, I look forward to the day (if it ever comes) when there are more than two (2!!) clear east-west and north-south routes in the city. all we have currently are Fanshawe pk road and oxford (E-W), and Wonderland and Highbury (north-south).

Once the Bradley extensions are completed, there will be a third.

[ldoto]

On-street parking could come at a cost in summer

CITY HALL: Committee will discuss implementing a paid program during the season

A London politician wants city hall to consider allowing drivers to park overnight on city streets during the summer -- for a fee.

One year after a summertime pilot project let people leave their cars at the curb for free -- a plan scrapped during the 2010 budget talks -- Ward 13 Coun. Judy Bryant says the city should revisit the issue once again.

"As the city grows, there's going to be more pressure to have some kind of program for on-street parking," Bryant said Friday.

"It's just part of a growing city and becoming a mature city."

In London, on-street parking is banned from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. Last summer's project lifted that restriction from June 16 to Sept. 7 -- costing the city an estimated $140,000 in ticket fines.

During budget deliberations, with councillors also considering free two-hour downtown parking on Saturdays and in December, the summertime exemption was scrapped.

But in a letter going to council's environment and transportation committee Monday, Bryant is asking for a staff report on starting a paid program for the summer months.

One possibility, she says, is offering dashboard passes for $5 or $10 nightly.

Some committee members, however, wonder whether such a plan is practical, considering people often don't plan to park overnight -- opting instead to do so after drinking.

"At a bar at 11 o'clock at night, where do you get the permit if you didn't plan ahead? From the bartender?" said Bud Polhill, who suggested selling a pass that would last all summer. Coun. Paul Hubert agrees with Bryant's point that overnight parking shouldn't be forgotten by council.

"To me, it's summer, it's festivals, it's not drinking and driving," Hubert said of the potential benefits. "If there's a way to have a parking pass program, I'll be looking at that with great care

[MolsonExport]

the city sprawls more than it grows (and the latter, by a considerably-less-than-whopping 4K per year)

[SlickFranky]

In London, on-street parking is banned from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. Last summer's project lifted that restriction from June 16 to Sept. 7 -- costing the city an estimated $140,000 in ticket fines.


Yeah, that's the right way to look at the issue....ass-hats.

[Waterlooer]

I think london should have a local highway or some sort of rapid transit. It definably is successful in K/W. I cant imagine how people would be able to get around without it.

[MolsonExport]

We have the LTC. How is a highway successful in KW? Certainly not in terms of city beautification.

[manny_santos]

We have the LTC. How is a highway successful in KW? Certainly not in terms of city beautification.

As much as I like the fact you can get close to the downtown area in Kitchener on an expressway, I also think London is overall a more attractive city than Kitchener. London's downtown has no shortage of problems, but we have Richmond Row, which I think is vibrant day and night, and is pedestrian-friendly. Last time I was in downtown Kitchener at night, it seemed pretty dead.

That said, driving from the west end of London to downtown during rush hour can take up to half an hour. For a city of London's size, that is pretty high.

[MolsonExport]

I agree (both counts). I also believe that, come a decade or so, that expressway in KW will be choked up like the 401 during rushhour, and they will be right back at square one with an ugly gash through the heart of the city.
London needs a ring road expressway, or at least some bypass on the north and west ends of town (e.g., north of sunningdale...but keep the zoning as is to alleviate sprawl; ditto for West del Bourne).

[manny_santos]

I agree (both counts). I also believe that, come a decade or so, that expressway in KW will be choked up like the 401 during rushhour, and they will be right back at square one with an ugly gash through the heart of the city.
London needs a ring road expressway, or at least some bypass on the north and west ends of town (e.g., north of sunningdale...but keep the zoning as is to alleviate sprawl; ditto for West del Bourne).

I have long been in favour of a ring road, although I don't know when a west-end route will become necessary. I'd concentrate on getting Veterans' Memorial Parkway up to freeway standards first, and then getting a link across the north end of the city - although that will likely have to be, at least in part, in Middlesex Centre Township.

[Waterlooer]

I agree (both counts). I also believe that, come a decade or so, that expressway in KW will be choked up like the 401 during rushhour, and they will be right back at square one with an ugly gash through the heart of the city.
London needs a ring road expressway, or at least some bypass on the north and west ends of town (e.g., north of sunningdale...but keep the zoning as is to alleviate sprawl; ditto for West del Bourne).

You're right, the expressway in K/W is already bumper to bumper with cars at rush hour. Were expanding highway 8 in kitchener as well as maybe highway 7/8 and highway 85, but we can only expand so much.

[Waterlooer]

As much as I like the fact you can get close to the downtown area in Kitchener on an expressway, I also think London is overall a more attractive city than Kitchener. London's downtown has no shortage of problems, but we have Richmond Row, which I think is vibrant day and night, and is pedestrian-friendly. Last time I was in downtown Kitchener at night, it seemed pretty dead.

That said, driving from the west end of London to downtown during rush hour can take up to half an hour. For a city of London's size, that is pretty high.

You're right about downtown kitchener, its not the best place to go at night. I agree that London is more attractive. There fixing up king st. and all of downtown kitchener.

[go_leafs_go02]

I have long been in favour of a ring road, although I don't know when a west-end route will become necessary. I'd concentrate on getting Veterans' Memorial Parkway up to freeway standards first, and then getting a link across the north end of the city - although that will likely have to be, at least in part, in Middlesex Centre Township.

I know my family hates the 20-25 minute drive it takes from Wonderland road interchange to their home in Oakridge at rush hour. It adds alot to a trip.

[manny_santos]

I know my family hates the 20-25 minute drive it takes from Wonderland road interchange to their home in Oakridge at rush hour. It adds alot to a trip.

Yeah...just imagine trying to get to Masonville from the 401 or 402...I've seen Wonderland backed up at Springbank all the way back to almost Commissioners at rush hour. Oxford is even worse - I've seen it backed up from Wonderland to almost Cherryhill Mall. No accidents, just volume.

That said, even with expressways, Kitchener can get very backed up during rush hour. The second last time I was in Kitchener I was on King St around 5 PM, and it took forever to get out of downtown.

If I could turn back the clock, I would've built a ring road closer to the city centre back in the 1960s, with connections to the 401/402. Such a routing would likely have incorporated the existing expressway portion of Highbury Ave, with the route running close to both Fanshawe College and UWO.

[MolsonExport]

Highbury is a complete mystery. Two overpasses (Bradley/Commissioners) without lights, then some with lights (e.g., 401, which makes little sense)...the rest of the way, it is just another crappy arterial. Why did they even bother with the 3 kms or so of freeway?

[Snark]

Highbury is a complete mystery. Two overpasses (Bradley/Commissioners) without lights, then some with lights (e.g., 401, which makes little sense)...the rest of the way, it is just another crappy arterial. Why did they even bother with the 3 kms or so of freeway?

Answer:

The Province built the freeway portion in the mid 60's as a connecting link between the new Hwy. #401 and what was then the south-east edge of the city. It was named Provincial Highway #126. It was constructed as a freeway due to the fact that "modern" post-war industrial development at the time was occurring in locations east of Highbury Ave in the area roughly bounded by Huron/Highbury/Clarke/Gore. This area was what would have been termed at the time a "blue-collar paradise" with huge modern factories such as Wolverine, Westinghouse (the current controversies didn't exist then), GM Diesel, and Firestone providing thousands and thousands of very good industrial jobs. This freeway was intended to get heavy industrial traffic from that burgeoning industrial area to the new 401. At the time, it was the right idea and served it's purpose for many years. At the time of initial construction there were no interchanges at Commissioners (built in the early 70's) or Bradley (built in 1989). The original interchange at Hwy. #401 was constructed as the standard cloverleaf of the day.

The interchanges at Bradley and Commissioners were constructed as parclo interchanges, introduced after problems with the then-standard clover leaf interchanges became apparent. Initial parclos were initially built as lower-traffic interchange separations between freeways and nominal two-lane roads (and are frequently seen on rural interchanges such as along Hwy. #402). Later on, modified parclos were introduced by the MTO in all sorts of urban applications and are used world-round. If traffic levels warrant it, signals are installed at the off-loading road for safety and traffic flow. As such, you see similar signalized situations at Wellington Road and Highbury Ave. In the GTA, they're everywhere.

As a post script, eventually Highway #126 became obsolete as the industrial link to Hwy. #401 it was intended to be. In the late "70's it was extended to St.Thomas - and is now primarily a commuter road. Oddly enough, another highway that was not constructed in the 60's - Provincial highway #100 - ended up being built in the 70's to replace the role of #126 just 5 kilometers to the east. Being a direct link to the airport and the same industrial area, it is the more proper highway to do the job that #126 was intended to do. In the Mike Harris Conservative years of the 90's, both Provincial highways were forcefully downloaded onto the City Of London (amongst dozens of other things). They became Highbury Avenue, and Airport Road - changed to Veteran's Memorial Parkway. Wisely, the City is putting all it can into the VMP as an essential link for some of the major employment purposes that highway #126 was intended to to 40 years ago.

The City is playing this one very smart.

[ldoto]

City officials will unveil Friday the $170,000 first step in enhancing the look of Veterans Memorial Parkway, a sign that’s part of a larger plan to develop an economic gateway.

Featuring a poppy and the road name on a rock “about the size of a room,” as one city official put it, was constructed over the winter on the road’s east side, just north of Hwy. 401, and will be formally unveiled Friday afternoon.

The project also included extensive tree planting — part of a larger plan to turn the road into a more significant gateway into London, said Andrew Macpherson, the city staffer handling the landscape efforts.

“It’s part of the bigger gateway plan that includes the airport,” which the city plans to expand and make a major cargo hub, he said.

“It’s quite a nice enhancement. (The parkway) will be, over time, one of the nicer entrances to the city.”

The second phase of the enhancement efforts — budgeted at $700,000 in infrastructure money, from all three levels of government combined — will involve extensive tree and shrub planting from the 401 to Oxford St.

There will ultimately be more than a dozen “features” added that are dedicated to military veterans.

The former Airport Rd. was renamed to honour military veterans in 2006.

[haljackey]

Transportation planning and growth maps:

Proposed BRT routes
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7569/clipboard02sdg.jpg

Projected population growth to 2030
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7023/fdwq.jpg

Traffic congestion- 2009
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/7751/clipboard024.jpg

Living in the southwest end (Westmount), a BRT line from Westmount Mall is an ok idea, but that's old technology. LRT is the way to go, and that should be concentrated in higher density areas near the core.

Also Southdale and Commissioners roads need to be widened from 2-4 lanes between Wonderland and Warncliffe ASAP, Wonderland needs to be widened from 4-6 lanes the whole way in the foreseeable future and have an interchange with the 401 ASAP.

Elsewhere in the city:
-Eventually Wellington Road needs to be 6 lanes the whole way. It currently needs 6 without breaks from the 401 to Base Line Road.
-Richmond Street should be 6 lanes between Western and Fanshawe Park roads
-Western/Warncliffe roads should be 4 lanes the whole way. (new CP and CN rail underpasses)
-The VMP should be extended to Clarke road and have 4 lanes the whole way. VMP interchanges at Bradley and Hamilton roads would improve safety and traffic flow.
-A new bridge to link Riverside with King street would aid downtown access and a bridge between Windimere and Grainsbrough would help traffic flow in the west.
-Hyde Park Road should be 4 lanes and Sarnia road should be 4 lanes the whole way, including a new overpass at the CP rail line.
-Oxford street needs (a minimum of) 4 lanes from Byron to the airport.
-Fanshawe Park Road should have 4 lanes between Adelaide Street and Clarke Road
-Interchanges with the 401 and 402 with White Oak Road should be considered. White Oak will need 4 lanes soon as well.
-Bradley Road needs to be extended to Wonderland and be 4 lanes the whole way to the VMP.

For BRT to ever be effective, a downtown transit hub is needed. However I think BRT should be scrapped and LRT should be planned. No one likes buses.

I don't think LRT is a pipedream for London. Although we're below this supposed 600,000 population "threshold", our city does not have any freeways serving local traffic. I personally think this is a good thing because it shifts the focus towards transit from cars. Still a strong road network is very important to the economic vitality of the city. LRT planning and implementation from an urban economic development standpoint is probably the greatest idea for our city because it not only will it help our transit system, it will boost our "green" reputation nationally and around the world.

LRT, combined with a HSR (high speed rail) line along the Quebec-Windsor corridor will also boost the economic reputation of the region and alleviate congestion on the inter-city highways, railways, and airports.

This post is also on the Smartmoves Website:
http://www.smartmoveslondon.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=151&p=356#p356

[MolsonExport]

^nice graphs and information. Welcome to the forum.

[haljackey]

^nice graphs and information. Welcome to the forum.

Thanks! I've been lurking here for a long time, just registered recently.

I actually have more to say regarding London's roads from a more regional perspective.

My vision for the long disputed London Ring Road:
-Red is what should go in. Dotted red are alternate routes and possible new routes. The current 402 route has been scribbled out.
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4931/clipboard02800x600.jpg

This is just an idea of mine of where the 402 should have gone. In fact, the 402 was supposed to go through the city, not around it, but the city rejected all freeway plans. Most politicians consider London a small town, when in reality we're actually a pretty sizable city and the need for a freeway was always there.

London is the largest city in North America not to have a freeway serving local traffic, and these routes will at least help to partially serve local traffic.

St. Thomas is considered part of London's CMA, despite the relative isolation of the town to London compared with other CMAs (just look at K/W and the GTA, several cities in the urban area, not separated by several kilometers of farmland).
-There's been talk of an expressway or freeway to St. Thomas for some time. There isn't even a 4 lane road to connect these two "metro" cities together, just a few 2 lane rural roads.
-There's also a rail line between the two that goes straight from downtown London, yet trains haven't traveled on it for decades.


Regarding my freeway plan, there's a rumor that the MTO plans to extend the 403 from the 401 to connect to the 402 west of London. This will help reduce congestion on the 401 between the 402 and 403 and provide connections for areas north of London. Adding a freeway in west London and finishing the Veteran's Memorial Parkway will complete London's system.

See this map for what I mean about extending the 403 to the 402.
Map of proposed routes for southern Ontario:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Expressway-network-future.png/800px-Expressway-network-future.png

[MolsonExport]

^neat. Wow, that proposed 402 looks like it passes close to my home (I live in Hyde Park)

[Waterlooer]

I think the LRT or BRT is a great idea. The LRT is a nice looking form of transit and personally I think it is a great thing for London to have. Were getting the LRT in K/W (whenever we get the provincial and federal fonding!!!).

[haljackey]

As everyone knows, this is going to be London's biggest year for road construction due to government stimulus funding.

I recently talked with the city, and to my surprise Wonderland between Gainsborough and Fanshawe is the only road that is being widened this year even with the increased funding. The rest of the projects are mainly road resurfacing projects and sewer work.

However there are a few residential curb extensions going in this year. Traffic calming bump outs will be constructed on Andover and Jalna, and smaller traffic calming on Chiddington and Killarney.

And of course, the city's first roundabout is going in on the new Hale and Trafalgar overpass.

Some pictures:

Hale and Trafalgar overpass
http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Proposed_Hale_Trafalgar_Overpass_thumbnail.jpg

Wonderland widening
http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Proposed_Wonderland_Rd_Widening_FULL.jpg

http://www.london.ca/Road_Construction/images/Proposed_Updated_Snake_Creek_Bridge.jpg

[MolsonExport]

^wow. first renderings that I've seen. thanks for that.

[manny_santos]

I like the plans for the Snake Creek bridge on Wonderland.

Speaking of roundabouts, I wonder if the proposed roundabout at Hamilton and Commissioners/Old Victoria is going to be built anytime soon. It was mentioned at a planning committee meeting I was at in 2007 and I haven't heard anything about it since.

[haljackey]

I like the plans for the Snake Creek bridge on Wonderland.

Speaking of roundabouts, I wonder if the proposed roundabout at Hamilton and Commissioners/Old Victoria is going to be built anytime soon. It was mentioned at a planning committee meeting I was at in 2007 and I haven't heard anything about it since.

I don't know of any new developments about that one.

The city is also considering a large roundabout, or multilane rotary to connect Wonderland/Warncliffe/Exeter which currently meet in a triangle. Something eventually needs to be done to fix the problem as volumes increase, but no solution has been decided yet.

I could also see a large roundabout going in at Wonderland/Oxford as a lot of traffic there is turning.

[ldoto]

:previous: Keep up this the good posts haljackey!!!!!!:cool:

[manny_santos]

I don't know of any new developments about that one.

The city is also considering a large roundabout, or multilane rotary to connect Wonderland/Warncliffe/Exeter which currently meet in a triangle. Something eventually needs to be done to fix the problem as volumes increase, but no solution has been decided yet.

I could also see a large roundabout going in at Wonderland/Oxford as a lot of traffic there is turning.

The Wonderland/Wharncliffe/Exeter idea sounds like an interesting one. What it sounds like to me, if one was driving westbound on Exeter Road, for example, and they wanted to turn southbound on Wharncliffe towards Lambeth, they would have to go north on Wonderland and then make a left onto Wharncliffe. Would I be correct?

For now I'd like to see the city improve traffic flow by correcting some problems with the traffic signals. There are a lot of minor signalized intersections that need signals during the day, but don't need them at night. Some intersections have low enough traffic at night that it would be more efficient to switch the signals to flashing red and flashing amber after, say, 10 PM.

[haljackey]

Despite the recent widening/upgrades between Huron University College and Richmond Street, Warncliffe/Western Road has been named London's worst road and the 16th worst in the province, according to the CAA.

Link to source: http://www.caasco.com/community/worst-roads/top-20-worst-roads.jsp

The recent reconstruction is nice, but it doesn't help the fact that the road still bottlenecks north of Western and near Horton Street. These are primarily due to the old rail overpasses that are not long enough to accommodate a wide roadway.

Next time you drive between Oxford Street and Patt's lane, look at more than the road. There isn't even a sidewalk on one side, and the sidewalk on the other side very narrow and is right at the curve. What a great way to impress people coming to Western. :(

The road needs to have 4 through lanes the whole way from Lambeth with enough land protected to widen it to 6 lanes in the future.

Maybe bus lanes are a good idea too between Dundas and Lambton, as the amount of bus traffic on that stretch is high. Another alternative is LRT, possibly having a line in a new median. Bike lanes are an absolute must.

The road surface isn't very good for the majority of its length either. I drive from Westmount to Western a lot and most times I'll just take Wonderland as it is a safer drive dispute Warncliffe being the faster route for me.


What other roads suck?

[ForestryW]

To widen Western Rd between Oxford and Platt's Lane would involve encroaching on Grosvenor Lodge. If it was ever seriously proposed there would be such a shit-storm of NIMBYism that it would never happen.

[MolsonExport]

That tunnel-like road (Philip Aziz Avenue) is extremely scary to walk up/down. No sidewalk. No shoulder. Extremely fast traffic on curving roads. Try to get from Main campus to the football stadium on foot. I dare ye.

Someday soon, somebody is going to die here.

Ditto on that stretch of Western Road. So small townish. Expand it or bypass it (e.g., Platt's Lane tunnel expansion). End of story.

[manny_santos]

That tunnel-like road (Philip Aziz Avenue) is extremely scary to walk up/down. No sidewalk. No shoulder. Extremely fast traffic on curving roads. Try to get from Main campus to the football stadium on foot. I dare ye.

Someday soon, somebody is going to die here.

Ditto on that stretch of Western Road. So small townish. Expand it or bypass it (e.g., Platt's Lane tunnel expansion). End of story.

Phillip Aziz Ave is so bad that it actually gets closed down before/after some Mustangs football games, particularly their home opener and the 2008 championships, so that pedestrians can safely get to the stadium from Western Road.

[manny_santos]

I am getting very frustrated with the state of Riverside Drive. Every time there is minor work being done on that road, a massive backup results. Today there was some minor work being done which required the westbound lane to be closed near Brittania Ave, and traffic backed up all the way west to Wonderland Road. For several days a couple weeks ago a small lane closure near Wharncliffe related to a nearby watermain project on another street resulted in the same problem.

Riverside desperately needs to be four lanes. A two-lane road connecting West London to Downtown is not sufficient. This road may have been adequate in 1945, but definitely not today.

[haljackey]

Riverside desperately needs to be four lanes. A two-lane road connecting West London to Downtown is not sufficient. This road may have been adequate in 1945, but definitely not today.

I agree, but do to the fact that the road is in a residential area, close to the river and has more than a few bends in it I doubt it would happen.

The good news is that Springbank Drive was widened a few years ago so a lot of people just travel a bit more down Wonderland to use it. Problem is its not as direct and there's always a backup of cars wanting to turn onto it from Wonderland.

[haljackey]

The Smartmoves site was recently cleaned up by the city, and I posted my little rant about Warncliffe/Western Road there:

http://www.smartmoveslondon.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=179&p=459#p459

The clean up of spam, ads and whatnot only came after we heckled the city to clean it up as they advertised the second Smartmoves meeting on Wednesday.

Took'em long enough, but at least it got fixed. :haha:

[go_leafs_go02]

I agree, but do to the fact that the road is in a residential area, close to the river and has more than a few bends in it I doubt it would happen.

The good news is that Springbank Drive was widened a few years ago so a lot of people just travel a bit more down Wonderland to use it. Problem is its not as direct and there's always a backup of cars wanting to turn onto it from Wonderland.

The CN Overpass and portion directly east of there has already enough space for a 4 lane pavement. Also, thinking of topography and ROW, widening to the west to Wonderland would be also an easy job.

Only east towards Woodward and by the cemetary does widening that road seem practically impossible.

They just redid that section of road over as well last year too. Doubt it'll happen.

[manny_santos]

The CN Overpass and portion directly east of there has already enough space for a 4 lane pavement. Also, thinking of topography and ROW, widening to the west to Wonderland would be also an easy job.

Only east towards Woodward and by the cemetary does widening that road seem practically impossible.

They just redid that section of road over as well last year too. Doubt it'll happen.

East of Beaverbrook Ave, the only way Riverside could be widened is if either the houses on the south side are demolished and a massive retaining wall is built, or if the graves immediately adjacent to Riverside are re-located elsewhere in the cemetary - something which has been done at some cemetaries in very limited cases, such as when erosion threatens part of a cemetary. That said, I highly doubt re-locating graves to accomodate road widening would go over well in London.

[MolsonExport]

I would prefer leaving Riverside as is. The best-kept secret way to get downtown quickly. Much better than the horrid Oxford.

Manny, where are those London-Mall shots? :D

[haljackey]

Here's a drawing I made a while ago envisioning a collector / express system along Highway 401 in the London Area. This is a long-term vision.

It's pretty rough (made in paint) and is not drawn to scale in any way, shape or form.

In addition, the interchanges are spaced much further apart and the overpassing roads are at different angles in RL.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/958/401londonmasterplan.png

Click here for full size if it doesn't display correctly. (http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/958/401londonmasterplan.png)

Anyways, I hope you enjoy it, even if you're not familiar with the London Area. Just something to think about.

[MolsonExport]

Wow now that is one ambitious plan! Unless London suddenly gains 2 million people, I don't see why we would ever need 3 parallel North-South freeways and the ten-lane 401. Still, interesting. How does transit fit into that vision?

[haljackey]

Wow now that is one ambitious plan! Unless London suddenly gains 2 million people, I don't see why we would ever need 3 parallel North-South freeways and the ten-lane 401. Still, interesting. How does transit fit into that vision?

Well this is assuming no other freeways get built. In my opinion, Highbury doesn't count (it's classified as an expressway) and a VMP freeway is at least 20 years away I'd assume. I doubt the plan for a freeway on the west side will ever get built.

The amount of traffic on the 401 is expected to grow significantly as it is Ontario's "main street" as our province's population goes up and up. In addition, as London grows south, a lot more people are going to use the 401/402 as a east/west artery. Separating local traffic from longer distance travelers will help eliminate weaving on the road and minimize localized congestion.

Also, take the Conestoga Parkway in K/W for example. That's strictly a local freeway and yet it also has a collector/express system for a portion of it's length. (Link to Google Maps example) (http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&channel=s&q=Conestoga+Pkwy,+Waterloo,+Waterloo+Regional+Municipality,+Ontario+N2V&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FRDPlwIdQQIz-w&split=0&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=16.71875,56.536561&hq=&hnear=Conestoga+Pkwy,+Waterloo,+Waterloo+Regional+Municipality,+Ontario&ll=43.464939,-80.471125&spn=0.003454,0.008256&t=k&z=18)

As for transit, this has nothing to do with transit. It is just a long term vision of how the increased traffic on the 401 can flow smoothly despite considerably higher volumes and how it is to handle it's new role as a urban freeway in the London Area. Perhaps a High Speed Rail line could be built along the 401 corridor as well, and maybe a light rail line could overpass it in the future to link growth south of the 401 to the downtown.

[manny_santos]

I'd rather see a freeway get built along the north side of the city, with links to the VMP and Highway 402. Unless London undergoes another annexation in Middlesex County, that would have to be a provincial project. Which means it'll never happen since we're not Toronto and we don't have a border crossing.

[go_leafs_go02]

I'd rather see a freeway get built along the north side of the city, with links to the VMP and Highway 402. Unless London undergoes another annexation in Middlesex County, that would have to be a provincial project. Which means it'll never happen since we're not Toronto and we don't have a border crossing.

I belive Middlesex county was interested in the project if they had major concessions granted to them. Too bad the City has developed right up to the City limits by Adelaide & Sunningdale and did not preserve any ROW for a future expressway in that corridor. I don't see annexation taking place to the north for a very long time, especially with such good freeway access in developable lands to the south with the 401 & 402.

I still think an VMP like roadway on the west side of London (Westdel Bourne area) would be great. In fact, I'd prefer it instead of a direct freeway access to the 402 in Strathroy, since you can easily get on Highway 22 west without any major problems in traffic with what exists. However, getting to the 401 Eastbound from where I grew up in Oakridge is a major pain in the butt. It easily takes 20-30 minutes to connect to Wonderland/402, and going through Lambeth is no way faster.

I've heard inklings that the 402 was originally supposed to go above the City to the north and then drop down and meet the 401 somewhere east of the city. The current alignment does not serve really any purpose to Londoners (which is alright - since it is mainly to connect city-to-city, and not serve a intra-city commute). That would have been ideal, especially if a West End Connector between that and the 401 could have been constructed.

Oh well, it's not the end of the world.

[haljackey]

I'm not sure about the county's decision, but all municipalities north have London have rejected any plans for a freeway.

Yes the 402 was originally supposed to go through the city and hook up with the 401 east of where it is presently located. See this old map from 1968 for it's original route:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9845/londonfreewayplan1968.jpg

Because the city failed to make Highbury a full freeway or seriously consider Highway 100 (later Airport Road, now VMP. Too many names lol!), a new alignment for the 402 was built. That's why it curves around the city to interchange with the 401. Other than the junctions with Highway 4 and Wonderland Road, it has almost no use as a commuter road for London.

As for a VMP-like route (expressway) in the west, I could see this happening if land is protected now. Perhaps in the long term it could be upgraded to a freeway. The VMP will need to be a freeway up to Oxford and an expressway to Fanshawe Park road in the mid term, becoming a freeway the whole way in the long term.

[go_leafs_go02]

I'm not sure about the county's decision, but all municipalities north have London have rejected any plans for a freeway.

Yes the 402 was originally supposed to go through the city and hook up with the 401 east of where it is presently located. See this old map from 1968 for it's original route:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9845/londonfreewayplan1968.jpg

Because the city failed to make Highbury a full freeway or seriously consider Highway 100 (later Airport Road, now VMP. Too many names lol!), a new alignment for the 402 was built. That's why it curves around the city to interchange with the 401. Other than the junctions with Highway 4 and Wonderland Road, it has almost no use as a commuter road for London.

As for a VMP-like route (expressway) in the west, I could see this happening if land is protected now. Perhaps in the long term it could be upgraded to a freeway. The VMP will need to be a freeway up to Oxford and an expressway to Fanshawe Park road in the mid term, becoming a freeway the whole way in the long term.

Interesting Picture. Sarnia Road back then was known as Springport Road, while Gainsborough road back then was known as Sarnia Road!!!

[MolsonExport]

I'm not sure about the county's decision, but all municipalities north have London have rejected any plans for a freeway.

Yes the 402 was originally supposed to go through the city and hook up with the 401 east of where it is presently located. See this old map from 1968 for it's original route:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9845/londonfreewayplan1968.jpg

Because the city failed to make Highbury a full freeway or seriously consider Highway 100 (later Airport Road, now VMP. Too many names lol!), a new alignment for the 402 was built. That's why it curves around the city to interchange with the 401. Other than the junctions with Highway 4 and Wonderland Road, it has almost no use as a commuter road for London.

As for a VMP-like route (expressway) in the west, I could see this happening if land is protected now. Perhaps in the long term it could be upgraded to a freeway. The VMP will need to be a freeway up to Oxford and an expressway to Fanshawe Park road in the mid term, becoming a freeway the whole way in the long term.

Wow, great find. I have been looking for such a graphic for a long time. Can you imagine if that had come to pass? The area around Fanshawe would probably be dense industrial, with the areas north and south dense commercial/residential. Would have pulled the entire city northward. Arva would probably be the size of st. thomas.

[haljackey]

Wow, great find. I have been looking for such a graphic for a long time.

If you have here's another freeway plan, this time from 1959.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8074/londonfreewayplan1959.jpg

To be honest I like the 1968 plan better because in the 1959 plan Highbury runs along the Thames River.

[MolsonExport]

^Scary, a la Robert Moses. Freeway the Thames.

[Snark]

Being a professional in this sort of biz, I can honestly say that the CAA thingy is a cheap publicity stunt. It is essentially meaningless. There are plenty of ways to ascertain the correct answers to CAA's question, but they don't want that. They want another stupid vox populi PR gimmick that has no scientific underpinning. If folks saw what the truly worst roads were, they would be quite surprised.

Most people here don't understand this, but most rail overpasses are primarily controlled by the railroad, not the City, and they are generally not enthusiastic about sinking cash into widening road crossings.

As for the widenings that you speak of? $40 mil as a first guess.


Despite the recent widening/upgrades between Huron University College and Richmond Street, Warncliffe/Western Road has been named London's worst road and the 16th worst in the province, according to the CAA.

Link to source: http://www.caasco.com/community/worst-roads/top-20-worst-roads.jsp

The recent reconstruction is nice, but it doesn't help the fact that the road still bottlenecks north of Western and near Horton Street. These are primarily due to the old rail overpasses that are not long enough to accommodate a wide roadway.

Next time you drive between Oxford Street and Patt's lane, look at more than the road. There isn't even a sidewalk on one side, and the sidewalk on the other side very narrow and is right at the curve. What a great way to impress people coming to Western. :(

The road needs to have 4 through lanes the whole way from Lambeth with enough land protected to widen it to 6 lanes in the future.

Maybe bus lanes are a good idea too between Dundas and Lambton, as the amount of bus traffic on that stretch is high. Another alternative is LRT, possibly having a line in a new median. Bike lanes are an absolute must.

The road surface isn't very good for the majority of its length either. I drive from Westmount to Western a lot and most times I'll just take Wonderland as it is a safer drive dispute Warncliffe being the faster route for me.


What other roads suck?

[haljackey]

Being a professional in this sort of biz, I can honestly say that the CAA thingy is a cheap publicity stunt. It is essentially meaningless. There are plenty of ways to ascertain the correct answers to CAA's question, but they don't want that. They want another stupid vox populi PR gimmick that has no scientific underpinning. If folks saw what the truly worst roads were, they would be quite surprised.

Most people here don't understand this, but most rail overpasses are primarily controlled by the railroad, not the City, and they are generally not enthusiastic about sinking cash into widening road crossings.

As for the widenings that you speak of? $40 mil as a first guess.

I completely agree. Still, the survey does identify roads that do need upgrades, despite the multiple factors that prevent this from happening. Of course there ARE much worse roads than the one in the list.

Kinda sucks about CP and CN, but that's life I guess. They want to spend the least amount of money as possible, and thus things are built to last for the short term, not long term.

[manny_santos]

Being a professional in this sort of biz, I can honestly say that the CAA thingy is a cheap publicity stunt. It is essentially meaningless. There are plenty of ways to ascertain the correct answers to CAA's question, but they don't want that. They want another stupid vox populi PR gimmick that has no scientific underpinning. If folks saw what the truly worst roads were, they would be quite surprised.

Yeah...try driving on some roads in Mexico. One freeway I've been on just outside Mexico City, with a speed limit of 110 km/h, had a posted advisory speed of 40 km/h at a bridge approach. It was like the approach to London's Kensington Bridge (Riverside Drive, anyone who has crossed that bridge on a London Transit bus will know what I mean), but only steeper. Some side streets in Mexico City are so narrow they are impassable if there's any cars parked along them - which is allowed overnight 365 days a year. And some members of London City Council thought overnight parking here was a problem.

Most people here don't understand this, but most rail overpasses are primarily controlled by the railroad, not the City, and they are generally not enthusiastic about sinking cash into widening road crossings.

Very true - if I recall correctly, the Hale/Trafalgar overpass didn't get off the ground until the federal government kicked in enough money. CN was only willing to put up a certain amount, as was the City.

[haljackey]

Here's some photos I took of Highway 401 from the Wellington Road overpass.

Looking east:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4709993687_74654c49a5_b.jpg

Looking west:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4710634690_ec4fbf71f1_b.jpg

Zoom in looking west showing the Highway 401/402 interchange in the distance.
(This one is now on London's Wikipedia page and the 401 article.)
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1294/4709989587_46f812f203_b.jpg



I also made a couple videos of the 401 and VMP.

This was my first time making road videos, so please forgive the shaky camera. Also, part of the tripod is visible in the windshield's reflection. Once again, sorry! I now know better for next time. :lol:

Both are sped up 3x to keep them interesting.

Highway 401 eastbound in London:
GdYyO8Bzpko

Veterans Memorial Parkway (VMP for short) northbound in London:
NapLGwwoBYs

Hope you enjoy them!

[manny_santos]

Something has got to be done about Springbank Drive and Commissioners Road heading from Wonderland Road west into Byron. I don't normally come home that way during rush hour but yesterday I ended up there. Heading west on Springbank I hit a line of cars that wasn't moving just west of Wonderland, where it narrows from 4 lanes down to 2. I thought there was construction or an accident. As the traffic slowly moved along, I found out it was lined up solidly from west of Boler and Commissioners in Byron, all the way out to Wonderland. Pure volume - no accidents or construction.

The whole Byron area is becoming a gigantic mess with rush hour traffic, especially as both it and River Bend continue to expand. Commissioners was supposed to be widened by 2011 according to plans I remember seeing in the mid-90s, but I know there was a NIMBY protest against it.

[haljackey]

Here's a new road video of mine. It shows the Highbury extension, Highway 401 and 402.

iFXvbx8bnTE

Hope you enjoy it!

[go_leafs_go02]

Here's a new road video of mine. It shows the Highbury extension, Highway 401 and 402.

iFXvbx8bnTE

Hope you enjoy it!

Neat. It's my hometown, and man, I miss driving out there. Keep them coming. :)

[MolsonExport]

Here's a new road video of mine. It shows the Highbury extension, Highway 401 and 402.

iFXvbx8bnTE

Hope you enjoy it!

Quite cool.

Almost no traffic whatsoever. Highbury is still a complete mystery to me...seems like such a waste of space for offering perhaps 4kms of speed (and only 2 overpasses). I know that Snark explained why it is so, but I am still grappling with the half-assedness of the whole thing.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Hey interesting stuff on here!

Just wanted to re-post what I had on City Smart move site.

The main problem getting around London is the constant stop and go traffic. The traffic lights in this city seem to be counter-intuitive to getting around this city. Main arteries like Commissioners, Wellington & Wonderland have the worst coordinated light system, where you will constantly hit red lights at every intersection, major or minor, which is the cause of the traffic congestion and idling that adds pollution.

Being able to travel rapidly is the solution to this. While there have been ring road proposals going back to the 1950's, this to me doesn't provide people who live in London with a solution, but to people traveling around London.

My suggestion is a Crosstown Expressway (http://img696.imageshack.us/f/londoncrosstownexpressw.jpg). Starting in the west by Oxford & Wonderland (although this could be started at Hyde Park Road or Gainsborough), traveling along the CN rail corridor, an expressway built over-top of this rail corridor similar to Toronto's Gardener Expressway. This expressway could have interchanges at major intersections along the corridor, Wharncliffe, Wellington, Adelaide, Highbury, Clarke Roads. The eastern terminus would be at Veterans Memorial Parkway, where traffic could easily access the 401.

This would link traffic from overcrowded arteries thus reducing them, give commuters a dedicated expressway to travel rapidly throughout the city, link up to VMP which is the de facto eastern expressway to give access to the 401. As well this would require minimum expropriation of land, the rail corridor already runs through London and acts as a psychological cut-off. Putting an expressway on the same land would allow the the people of London and CN to benefit from its use.

I know its an ambitious idea, but we need to do something now about traffic, otherwise its bound to get worse and worse with the growth of London and the amount of commuters in the city!

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2032/londoncrosstownexpressw.jpg

[MolsonExport]

^interesting, but it would only lead to sprawl and the flight from inner-urban areas.

Better would be to (1) match up a few more dead links (there needs to be an east-west throughway between Fanshawe Pk road and Oxford, and Wellington needs to somehow go through to Fanshawe Pk road; and (2) synchronise the traffic signals. My dream would be for a light rail line (or tram) between Masonville and White Oaks, threading through UWO and Downtown.

[haljackey]

lol I guess I might as well repost my message from the Smartmoves site here as well.

Interesting idea, but sadly it will never happen.

Why?
1. Cost. Elevated highways are crazy expensive and have huge maintenance costs.

2. NIMBYism. No one will like having this close to their homes. I know the CN cooridor is already there but building an elevated highway on top of it will make it very visible over a large distance. There would be way, way too much public and political opposition. Hardly any new elevated highways have been built since the end of the 20th century... just look at the plans to tear down the Gardiner in Toronto or the Big Dig projects in Boston and Madrid that moved the elevated portions underground.

3. Usefulness. I doubt this will ever be fully utilized. It may have if something similar was built back in the days the governments actually provided funding for freeway building, but you won't get good bang for your buck these days.

Back in the 1960's there was a plan to route a freeway or expressway through the Thames River valley from the Highbury expressway to downtown. That would have been the only place a cross-town expressway could actually fit in to the landscape. However that dream died long ago and now London is forced to choke on it's overworked, congested arterial system.

I believe London is the largest city in North America that doesn't have a freeway to serve local traffic, and it doesn't look like we'll be getting one any time soon. Just look at this site, it's a push from the city to get away from cars and switch to transit. While the idea is good, increasing road capacity is a must because cars aren't going away any time soon, they might just be switching to a new energy source in the near future.


Simply put, nice vision! :)

[manny_santos]

One of the key corridor improvements I'd like to see is linking Sarnia Road and Huron Street, to provide another east-west artery through the city.

I still honestly think a lot of the best ideas to fix the transportation system were in the 1973 roads study - it had a vision that included public transit and even bike paths.

[go_leafs_go02]

Rather see an emphasis towards a major transit line and a few nodes to connect through the major points of the city rather than road expansion. There's lot of possibilities for connections and routes - but that would also involve using present road ROW.

We need also to focus on redevelopment and intensification in and around the core. Seeing the sprawl that still goes on everywhere, it's cul-de-sacs, dead-ends and curvy roads that go nowhere.

Hope that can change, but London is still developing in the residential areas like it's 1970 still. Nothing in London that I've seen is anything modern along the lines with back lanes, a street grid system, etc.