[M II A II R II K]

I posted my announcement making myself abundantly clear, and how fair it is without anyone having to give up a thing at all. That's the beauty of it.

If there are any serious objections I shall take them into consideration, but not bitching for the sake of bitching. If you have an opposing point, be sure that it stands up to debate.

[M II A II R II K]

To further emphasize the point as an example of an infill thread. Anyone here is more than free to continue to talk about it in the main construction thread.

But if anyone wants to talk about that or something else more in depth there will be an outlet to do so, which makes for catering to as many forumers as possible.

And no this is not copying C2E, this is still only one single forum which has more than enough space to accommodate additional discussions.

[edmontonenthusiast]

The Retail Thread, Infill thread, if gains some momentum should be stickied so the outlet is found clear.

the UofA thread by 240 glt should also be stickied.

[Xelebes]

There should be a limited number of stickies - I place the limit at four.

[Xelebes]

I just wanted to state that there seems to be three bodies of posters and I think one body is dismissing the other two unfairly and at times attacking each other. Let's please be aware that there are others who might post in the Edmonton forum but find the Construction megathread intimidating. We should not be intimidating those posters from participating in these new threads if they feel that what they say becomes more visible in these extra threads.

I have made mention to Mark that it would probably be best if the locals created the thread and that there are some here who are willing to do so that the rush so soon to make these new threads by someone who is not a local does intimidate the locals a bit here. However, this does not excuse you all to act like brats on this forum and snipe at those making these changes. State your position or, if you feel that your voice is not being heard, contact Tom, mersar and I to bring your issue up with the admin.

[Coldrsx]

X - multiple threads waters everything down... i used to visit calgary and van and rarely do now.

[feepa]

we like things the way they are. There's about 1 or 2 new posters who have joined SSP in the last 2 months that feel we want to change everything.

WE LIKE THINGS THE WAY THEY WERE. STOP TRYING TO FIX SOMETHING THAT'S NOT BROKEN!

[M II A II R II K]

To add like I said nothing has to be taken away from the main thread, or it get watered down. Anyone can feel free to talk about what they have been talking about all along in that thread.

To have seperate infill or retail threads doesn't mean that it's forbidden to talk about that in the main thread for example. The idea is for the additional threads to be used as an outlet to expand on specific topics and expand and go more in depth with them, if someone so choosed. The additional option is made available and doesn't take anything away from those not interested in it.

After all a whole forum was given, if more threads were not wanted then I might as well not have created an Edmonton section and just leave the sticky in the main Alberta section.

And as for the stickies, any more than 5 of them gets to be too much.

[Coldrsx]

^there just is not enough traffic/replies to justify break out threads... you look thus far and they barely get attention.

if anything it makes me more confused as to which place to go for what to be honest.

[M II A II R II K]

Then the recommendation is try it out for a bit to see how it works out, it's possible it could even prompt more participation to end up justifying the threads.

So that's the recommendation see what happens and if it prompts some people to participate in those threads where they ordinarily wouldn't if they were not there.

Xelebes is by no means the first person to suggest that a megathread intimidates and deters newcomers.

[edmontonenthusiast]

@Xelebes: x2 ... yeah megathreads can be intimidating - not for me, but for others now that you mention it.

@Coldrsx: why? I still frequent both cities"local" threads...did you just not want it to change? I don't know but I think that's quite silly. If you have interest in those cities, and know there's good discussion, it doesn't matter the format, you probably would still visit those forums. Not to mention the Calgary one is not that bad - they still use the Construction thread for most stuff. It's like Vancouver or Calgary getting a C2E ... it's like you saying ugh I hate all these threads for edm so I hate C2E kind of thing. Same thing. Maybe I didn't explain that well but I think you can see what I'm saying. To me the locals shouldn't be a barrier, but that's my standpoint. But I agree that it does act as a barrier as I don't see many non-vancouver people in Vancouver for example, unless they used to live there.

@feepa: oh bull. Seriously. I've been on SSP (not with an account) for 2 years already, I'd hardly call that "new". And, you're taking it from one extreme to another really, and are being dramatic. NO ONE said that they wanted to CHANGE EVERYTHING if ANYTHING AT ALL (nobody including me or not including me). What I merely said was that I'D be open to NEW CONCEPTS - as did others, for example if we were to support the Local system I'd still come here, and overall you are being closed minded about this. I'm not supporting Mark's multiple threads that split up the construction thread but nor am I supporting everything staying the same as you want. But, I certainly think it's worth a try - just to try, how can you say that you don't like something if you aren't even going to willingly give it a try? If you try it and still don't like it, then that's legitimate excuse for saying you don't like the multiple threads.

@ M II A II R II K: I agree, I don't see the big deal over an Infill or a Retail thread at all - considering discussing it in the construction thread is off topic. And people really don't need to be whiney to you but I guess they really are being closed minded (no offense to those of you that are ;)).

[feepa]

Why don't we have a vote?

Or maybe we can alienate all the regulars POSTERS who have contributed to this forum for years, in favour of what some new comer may or may not want.

I think you are confused. We have C2E for individual threads. I like to come to SSP to see the discussion in one thread.

EE - you've been here 2 months as a poster. Your lurking status for all I know, is made up, and hardly relevant.

[feepa]

I Like the SSP Edmonton Construction thread cause I don't need to click in 10 different threads to get the news I want. Separating the current discussion is ludicrous.

Why do you continue to push for something that the stated majority of users here at SSP: Edmonton don't want?

[edmontonenthusiast]

^so then why are you a moderator on C2E if you hate multiple threads so much? that's weird.

the purpose of a new format wouldn't be to alienate so please stop making this bigger than it is right now. open your mind a little bit, just to try new ideas.

good for you, you've been here since 2005, do you want something for being a member of SSP longer than me? i've lurked since 2007, so even with that you'd beat me, so?

just because you've been here more does not mean what you think counts more. but nor does it count less, everyone's opinion matters equally so quit belittling or what ever you're trying to do.

[M II A II R II K]

I Like the SSP Edmonton Construction thread cause I don't need to click in 10 different threads to get the news I want.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, nothing is taken away from the main thread. The additional threads are outlets for more in depth discussions zeroing in on specific categories or those that are interested.

[Xelebes]

I Like the SSP Edmonton Construction thread cause I don't need to click in 10 different threads to get the news I want. Separating the current discussion is ludicrous.

Why do you continue to push for something that the stated majority of users here at SSP: Edmonton don't want?

Because you speak for the majority and not the minority that does exist. Do not dismiss the needs of the minority to participate in this forum.

[feepa]

So I guess screw over the wishes of most to accommodate the supposed desire of a few - the few that have apparently been here for years and year, and just decided to start participating in the last 30 days?

Logic = fails

[feepa]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, nothing is taken away from the main thread. The additional threads are outlets for more in depth discussions zeroing in on specific categories or those that are interested.

Yes, its taking away that indepth discussion which already happens in the construction thread. Do you even regular tune in to the Edmonton thread? I'd hazard to say absolutely not.

[edmontonenthusiast]

So I guess screw over the wishes of most to accommodate the supposed desire of a few - the few that have apparently been here for years and year, and just decided to start participating in the last 30 days?

Logic = fails

Please. Stop the whining, no offense, and NO - that isn't the point I don't think Xelebes was getting at. What you are doing is pushing aside a minority just because you want to because you find them unimportant which is very very arrogant. You're trying to make the minority not exist.

It's more about compromise (from how I take it). How can we get both parties happy? So what if you're representing the majority, that doesn't mean you have to stomp all over the opposing party.

I think a compromise can be met, but only with extensive discussion cause it will NOT happen easy probably.

[Xelebes]

So I guess screw over the wishes of most to accommodate the supposed desire of a few - the few that have apparently been here for years and year, and just decided to start participating in the last 30 days?

Logic = fails

No, but you wish to suppress the option of a venue for the minority to post in. These threads are not restricting your space but you are seeing it as the case. The new threads do not specifically restrict your current posting patterns, but opens up the playing field to post more information rapidly. The curent construction thread stands a s a monolith and permits about 5 pages per day of posts before people get discouraged from posting in those threads.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with how Mark is posting these threads but it is wise to make suggestions for him to improve the creation of said threads and to make it more inclusive to address what you need to participate in them.

[Xelebes]

^there just is not enough traffic/replies to justify break out threads... you look thus far and they barely get attention.

if anything it makes me more confused as to which place to go for what to be honest.

Is the status quo a hindrance to posting activity or a creator? We need to test it out.

[M II A II R II K]

And so far the Calgary people have their main thread that they always post in as always, and now have extra extension threads.

I know they may not have an equivalent of C2E but still.

[edmontonenthusiast]

^Yeah. I don't see a problem with something like that. It makes a good compromise, or even a more watered down one with no Naming Convention, only 1-2 subForums, etc.

[frinkprof]

I'm going to make some comments as a relative outsider (I post in the Public Transit Thread and casually observe the Construction thread). Obviously a Local is not needed due to the existence of C2E. Not only that, but at least for Calgary, the Local came about to help solve a chronic off-topic problem in the mega thread and allow an outlet for people to discuss those other topics in somewhere where the discussion could be expanded, and also to decrease the pace the megathread moved at (150+ posts easily on a busy day).

The Edmonton thread, in my observation, has nowhere near the same issues with off-topic stuff, nor the sheer volume of posts. Simply put, it seems easy to follow for regulars and casual participants as well. An extra thread or two now and again probably wouldn't hurt though. I agree with what both sides (namely feepa and edmontonenthusiast) are trying to get across here. Feepa, I can understand why all the generic "they've-worked-in-other-sections" threads being created by Mark can be seen as forcing things and meddling. I agree, probably not the best way to go about it. Edmontonenthusiast, while the multiple threads may not cramp your personal posting preferences or might actually be what you want, understand that other people do not like such a setup, especially considering that the volume of posts and lack of an off-topic problem in the Edmonton Construction thread don't call for drastic changes. However, the point can be made that the traditional setup may not work for some people either.

One thing though, Mark has been quite helpful in Calgary getting a Local setup that worked (we did not want something as fragmented as Vancouver). There were some kinks, and still are some, but he has been quite helpful in working with us. If you let your concerns be known in a civil manner to try to find solutions, he will probably be helpful in working with you.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

[edmontonenthusiast]

^Yes, Mark seemed to work well with the Calgary forumers, from what I saw.

Here he seemed to act the same way but instead got bashed by arrogant users just for creating a thread. He has been very kind and has seemed to want to work things out so there would be a compromise. Not to mention he was just trying what worked in other places.

Again I'll state I'm not for or against the creation of more threads, but I will say that I'm willing to give a new format a try. Many forumers are being so closed minded about it, when it probably won't resemble C2E. It is just frustrating is all. I understand how certain users want to keep things the way they are, but inevitably, change is going to happen.

I just think that we should be a "sport" and at least try it - maybe just even for a week and see how it goes. Otherwise what really is the point of having our own section? I don't know.

[M II A II R II K]

(we did not want something as fragmented as Vancouver)

Vancouver is the most fragmented, other locals he created has the standard 8 forum version. When I came into the local picture we carved out our 6 forum version.

I have talked to Mike about this and it was decided that there won't be any more locals created until some kind of consensus is met. As different admins we bring different forum creating experiences and philosophies to the table which caused the local divergence between us 2.

[frinkprof]

Otherwise what really is the point of having our own section? I don't know.The thing to remember though is that Edmonton having its own section came about a bit haphazardly, rather than posters requesting it (as it did with Calgary) in response to a problem. With Calgary leaving the Alberta section, and then BC merging with no presence from Vancouver and Victoria, it was either stick in the AB/BC main section, or have its own section and the second section seemed like the least awkward situation.

[feepa]

I've just been told to stop whining by the biggest forum whiner I've ever met? Please. You're soon going to be hitting my ignore list. Don't ever tell me what to do EE. I've voice my opinion on this issue how and when I want. Just because you might not agree with what I think, doesn't mean you need to call me a whiner. I feel deeply about this issue, as I spent a great deal of time here, and have been involved with SSP for a great long time. I will voice my concerns, and questions, so please, stop trying to silence me. It's not going to work.

[edmontonenthusiast]

^I'm not trying to "silence" you or "tell you what to do", do not make accusations about me.

What I am merely saying is you really just gotta try and open your mind to new ideas, that way you can safely say "yeah I don't like it".

And as a matter of fact you were whining, so do not turn this around on me.

Calm down as I was saying that you just should open your mind and at least see where I'm coming from. I know where you're coming from and know that it makes sense, but you are being very ignorant on the topic.

Sure voice your opinion, but do it in a nice manner, instead of insulting members of the forum. You need to stop being mean to people on the forum, that's that. Does that (comment) mean I'm forcing you or telling you what to do? No - but it is a good idea.

I guess I'm the "vocal" minority.

Please stop with the accusations now.

[RTA]

^ If you two don't quit yer bitchin' soon, I'm'a gonna turn this forum right around and head back home.

Sheesh.

[edmontonenthusiast]

^Didn't you say the same thing on c2e

:P.

Anyways what was merely two opposing sides has gotten into a feepa vs ee thing (well, it is now).

I'm not going to point fingers at feepa like "he started it", nor should he do the same but this has gone on too long anyhow. I would usually just ignore it but this is a big issue for the forum so i'm discussing it.

[Great Dane]

Bunch O' Whiners; specifically, Cold and Feepa.

Oh no, new ideas! The world is coming crashing down! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

Extra threads is fine by me, makes everything a lot more organized and easy to read. Not everyone who visits this page is a mega-nerd who spends hours upon hours of searching through a gigantic thread like some of the vocal anti-more thread nerds here.

God almighty.

[edmontonenthusiast]

^No offense to Cold or feep but it is truly sad how whiney some forumers are I mean even cities like Saskatoon and Winnipeg that don't have locals aren't so whiney about multiple threads.

Like really what is the big deal? So we don't have every post in 1-2 threads ... big deal. We have a Public Transportation thread and a Construction thread, many other cities can get by with 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 without whining and making a big fuss about it. Even with these threads most of the discussion would still be in const thread.

[feepa]

don't call me whiney again, noob. If you want to talk about whiney, look to all your private messages you have sent me since your inception into the forum world here and c2e.

M II A II R II K - why don't you bring this to a vote.

And EE - Take a rest all ready. your not enthusiastic. your way overbearing, and way overzealous to the point your annoying as fuck.

[M II A II R II K]

This bitchfighting is not helping.

As for taking things to a vote that's really only effective if the people truly understand what they're voting on.

Ideally any additional threads shouldn't take anything away from the main thread, and the additional threads are outlets to go in depth in specific categories.

If however there's more of a draw to that one thread, then I'll be done with it and collapse this section back into AB/BC, since obviously there wouldn't be a need for this forum.



I think this exploration of the idea of additional threads acting as additional outlets is worth pursuing, and remember it's only for those that are interested. These new threads shouldn't effect the main thread. Whether or not that will actually be the case is another story, but it's worth trying out.

[M II A II R II K]

My judgement call is to give it a go, if it works out it will make the greatest number of people satisfied.

Some people would be free to stick to the main thread only if they want, and others would have an outlet to zero in on certain topics. That is the desired outcome and is worth being given a chance to work out.

[Great Dane]

don't call me whiney again, noob. If you want to talk about whiney, look to all your private messages you have sent me since your inception into the forum world here and c2e.

M II A II R II K - why don't you bring this to a vote.

And EE - Take a rest all ready. your not enthusiastic. your way overbearing, and way overzealous to the point your annoying as fuck.

I have never messaged you, nor would I waste my time. Quit trying to make yourself look and/or feel important by actually believing I would waste my breath & time with you any longer than is deemed necessary. Nor am I on that C2E.

What I, and others are sick and tired of is your incessant nerdy whining.

Newsflash! Not everybody shares your opinion on the way things should be run so instead of incessantly whining about something, either go away or deal with it.

And yes, I am a noob; don't have the time to rack up 5,000 posts.

And EE is a hell of a lot better than the constant whining that comes from you; at least he/she can contribute effectively to a discussion more often than not.

[Xelebes]

GD, let's net get more into the pettiness here and move on. This is a message to everyone - to EE, to GD and to feepa and everyone else who is getting more and more emotionally involved. If personal messages need to be made to aeach other, please do it by PM.

[M II A II R II K]

I hope this drastic move gets your attention.

[M II A II R II K]

I have made the die hard Edmonton construction people happy, anyone that wants to create additional threads here in the AB/BC section are free to do so.

[edmontonenthusiast]

feepa, that really wasn't necessary. I'm not even gonna go there, give it a rest, and lets just move on as Mark and Xelebes said.

So in light of that, I think it would be great to try out multiple threads. My whole reasoning was not to support it, but rather try it out which I think is great to do. But the thing is, we can't force posters to use the other threads or anything, nor should we. So how can we really test this ... any ideas?

[M II A II R II K]

It turns out that the Edmonton forum was never requested in the first place, and the only reason it was to free up space for threads about other locations in Alberta or BC.

Clearly that isn't an issue and there's still space for more Edmonton threads. I have highlighted them with a green arrow for easy finding of Edmonton threads.

[edmontonenthusiast]

Thanks Mark that's actually handy!

[feepa]

I have made the die hard Edmonton construction people happy, anyone that wants to create additional threads here in the AB/BC section are free to do so.


Yes. Way to listen to what we want. Not. Fail again. Pretty soon fail becomes par for the course...

Let me run down what happened here.

-Most of agree to having an Edmonton Section, but not a SSP:Local, via the poll you created. We stated we didn't want 20 different topics splitting up the construction thread.

- You created the subsection, and we were fine with that.

- You then started created topics that nobody was interested in, a veiled attempt to push us in to a local. We resisted. We told you how we felt, but then you didn't listen again. We said that topics should grow organically in this section, by someone who actually gives a rats ass about Edmonton (ie: Not you).

- You then started this thread, where EE and GD complain they don't like it the way we regulars have been used to for at least 6+ years. I share my point of view, get called a whiner several times because I'm expressing how I feel. I get threated to be banned/suspended by Xelebes via PM. Xelebes calms down after realizing I'm just expressing the way I feel about these ludcrious changes you are trying to make.

- In a stark drastic move, you remove the subsection as if some sort of punishment against us for not using your ill-conceived thread ideas that none of us wanted, or see a need for presently. "HAHA Edmonton forumers, I'll shove you right back where you started from, for not adopting to my threads"

FAIL x 100

M || A || R || K. My suggestion... Return us back to the sub-section, and leave god damn well enough alone. We were happy with keeping the Sub section, and our construction thread. Let us(us = Edmonton forumers who gives a rats ass about Edmonton) start threads when the need and time arise. Let the subsection grow on its own. organically. Don't try to force the issue. We have a lot of Edmonton members, and it will happen, over time. But your trying to act like an over the top parent. Forcing the kids to eat vegetables they don't want to, not because they taste bad, but because they are being forced to.

Thanks,

M || A || T || T

[feepa]

if you're going to keep us in the Alberta + BC section, please return our stickies as well.

[feepa]

also, can you bring back the polls and threads you've either deleted or hidden from public view on the original discussion on the Edmonton subsection? I've noticed they have conveniently gone missing.

[M II A II R II K]

That thread is in the main Canada section, unstuck of course so it dropped down somewhere. Although the poll wasn't directly about an Edmonton sub-section.

[M II A II R II K]

And more threads are now stuck.

The bitchfighting wasn't really getting anywhere, action was taken to better force the issue, so we can see if we like this setup better without unnecessary fragmentation.

If the Edmonton subsection is wanted back, it can be easily re-created again. As with all sections of the forum, changes are often made but they always finalize on what turns out to work out best, the same holds true for here.

A more informed choice would be made since you'll now know whether or not you prefer a subsection or not, now that you'll have a chance to have used both layouts.

[Great Dane]

GD, let's net get more into the pettiness here and move on. This is a message to everyone - to EE, to GD and to feepa and everyone else who is getting more and more emotionally involved. If personal messages need to be made to aeach other, please do it by PM.

I'm sorry, I deal with whiners every day with/in my business and the last thing I really need to see is constant whining over something so insignificant as a message forum.

But alas, I will cease and desist as I realize that it's not worth wasting my time on some.

[Coldrsx]

Recent SSP "moves" are making me question my time here.

[S_B_Russell]

Okay, so what's going on here now?

[edmontonenthusiast]

^I dunno.

Can't seem to win with you guys.

For the record, I was complaining about feepas attitude, not his opinion in general. And don't try to fancy everything up with your 6+ years crap. So what?

It's like voting, everyone gets 1 vote, and everyone's vote is worth as much as Stephen Harper, Celine Dion, a homeless man, or the average joe. While it isn't necessarily a democracy here, you demean the opposing sides opinion just because you dont like it, but really whether your here for 10 yrs, 5 yrs, 2 yrs, 1 yr, 5 months, 2 months, 6 minutes, 2 minutes, your opinion should count as much as the next guy.

The whole point was to try something new. M II A II R II K wasn't "forcing" anything, I think he just wanted to put it out there (the threads) to see how we'd like it, and instead some jerks just totally bash him. That was very rude, and wasn't necessary. Really. All the guy did was create a thread.

I don't see the big deal, yes we have C2E for multiple threads, but what's the big deal really if we have more than 1 Edmonton thread. Other cities without a local do it without the fighting. And it's getting quite sad.

Any how this has just gotten WAY out of hand.

I think maybe M II A II R II K or Xelebes needs to create a thread where each member who wants to can post their ideas on how to go about this. Keep a subsection or not, only have megathreads, have multiple threads, etc. And nobody really bash each others opinions to the extent they were here Then the moderators can get a real grasp of what the Edmonton community wants. What do you think?

[Xelebes]

Just a reminder, don't go after people's attitudes - it only sullies your own attitude. If you need to address one's personal attitude towards the forum, extend an olive branch to the other and take it to PMs or let it be for the moderators to decide what is going on and how it should be dealt with.

With this point, I shall be closing the thread so that the moderation and administration staff can talk this particular issue over. In the meanwhile, proceed to talk about what this forum was meant for - skyscrapers, construction and development.