[BFHeadstone]

Today is the big day. Does anyone have any idea how it may play out?

Post any news in here :)

[craner]

:fingerscrossed:

I'm optimistic.

[BFHeadstone]

Saw on Global that they may have some idea of the count by the late newss

[srperrycgy]

61% No
39% Yes

(From Global)

[ue]

What's actually happening there?

(sorry I'm out of the warp on the topic here)

[Witty Nickname]

This really sucks.

[frinkprof]

@EE:

The city made an offer to the T'suu Tina First Nation for the land needed for a large chunk of the SW portion of the ring road. Something like $240 million. The T'suu Tina band has voted it down, which means more negotiation.

[srperrycgy]

What's actually happening there?

(sorry I'm out of the warp on the topic here)

SW Calgary Ring Road (http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/swringgp.htm)

The T'suu T'ina voted to reject the deal between the Nation and the Province that would have allowed the construction of the Ring Road through Nation Lands. Back to square one.

[WeavedWeb]

@EE:

The city made an offer to the T'suu Tina First Nation for the land needed for a large chunk of the SW portion of the ring road. Something like $240 million. The T'suu Tina band has voted it down, which means more negotiation.

I don't think this means more negotiation at all. I think after 50 years, the book is closed and we are back to square one at finding a solution to the entire problem, be it other road improvements, transit improvements, or another solution. I can't see the T'suu Tina accepting another deal after another two or five or ten years of negotiation, it seems there is a strong majority against building the road through the lands. And quite frankly, it would probably be a waste of time to continue to negotiate when other solutions could be planned and eventually implemented in the meantime. Living in Evergreen, the SWRR through the lands would certainly have been convenient, but it is not the end of the world. I would rather see other roads in the area (ie, 22x, Anderson, 37 St. [Fish Creek to 22x], Macleod and/or 14 St) upgraded in the meantime. Glenmore improvements have also been held up for years because of a lack of final ring road design; improvements like the 37 St i/c should be able to proceed now because there isn't going to be a road through the lands in the near future. It is time for a new plan, a new solution, and most importantly, it is time to move on.

[Stang]

I am actually a little surprised by the result of this vote. It seemed like that offer was very reasonable both financially and also in terms of the extra land.

I also think that this was the last chance to strike a deal, and with an overwhelming majority voting against it, it is time to move on. If this was a strategic move by the Tsuu T'ina, I think it will probably backfire. I don't see negotiations continuing as they have been going on for too long already, and I can't see the deal getting much sweeter no matter how much the province needs the land.

That being said, the city and province made some huge mistakes by building right up against the border of their land and not leaving a desirable path for such a road, but we're talking about mistakes that were made decades ago. Granted, there are other major obstacles - like a giant reservoir, the Weaslehead area, etc.

It will be interesting to see what happens now...

[freeweed]

SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE.

And yes, it's time to say "fuck you" to the people who think they can hold out indefinitely for those few extra dollars. If they don't want to play, fine, we'll take our money elsewhere. Seriously, they were getting an incredible deal, tons of money, much more land in exchange, and wonderful opportunities to improve their economic prospects. This "let's drag this on for years longer to see if we can't squeeze just a few more bucks out of the deal" is crap. It's been going on for what, 10 or 20 years now?

A half billion (or whatever the figure was) could expropriate one HELL of a lot of houses to run a major road through on 37th. Or something similar. The city should be outlining plan B first thing Monday morning. Let's see how quickly the band comes back to the bargaining table if the city walks away completely.

[WeavedWeb]

SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE.

And yes, it's time to say "fuck you" to the people who think they can hold out indefinitely for those few extra dollars. If they don't want to play, fine, we'll take our money elsewhere. Seriously, they were getting an incredible deal, tons of money, much more land in exchange, and wonderful opportunities to improve their economic prospects. This "let's drag this on for years longer to see if we can't squeeze just a few more bucks out of the deal" is crap. It's been going on for what, 10 or 20 years now?

A half billion (or whatever the figure was) could expropriate one HELL of a lot of houses to run a major road through on 37th. Or something similar. The city should be outlining plan B first thing Monday morning. Let's see how quickly the band comes back to the bargaining table if the city walks away completely.

I think the city has walked away, judging from the Mayor's comments. The question is whether or not Steady Eddy will walk away, and my guess is that he goes back to the bargaining table. I certainly hope not, though.

[Calgarian]

Why would they vote no? I really dislike the Tsu Tina nation, they are really out to lunch. Their reserve is dirt poor, so they turn down a big pile of cash and potential millions more in leases.

[mersar]

Yeah, I'm surprised at this. I figured if it failed it would have been a 49-51 split or so. The comments from a few band members that they didn't believe they'd actually get the land that was part of the deal highlights the biggest obstacle though, being that a lot of them don't trust any level of government outside the band (and sometimes not even the band)

[Calgarian]

They have really good reason to mistrust the Government, but they really screwed themselves here. Is there any way we can tunnel under their land with the $240mil?

[You Need A Thneed]

37th Street Tunnel plans are probably being worked on already.

[srperrycgy]

I'll give them some credit, they got a 78% voter turnout. :rolleyes: A tunnel? not likely for $240 million. A decent high bridge and road network serving it might work. Removing access to the casino would be good too.

[mersar]

Guaranteed that if any 37th street route happens the casino will be punished greatly (imagine them having to build a full systems interchange at that corner... pushing any access to Glenmore or 37th a minimum of a half km away and probably entirely at their cost)

[WeavedWeb]

Wasn't the casino approved by the province on the understanding that an agreement would be reached to build the ring road through the lands? Is there any recourse at all now that they didn't keep their end of the deal?

[Calgarian]

They would have to build the interchanges on rez land.

[Calgarian]

Wasn't the casino approved by the province on the understanding that an agreement would be reached to build the ring road through the lands? Is there any recourse at all now that they didn't keep their end of the deal?

That does ring a bell.

[You Need A Thneed]

I'm pretty sure this is the end of negotiations with the Tsuu Tina - for good.

I think the next order of business is to figure how much it would cost to go over/under the weaselhead, and to expropriate the required properties for interchanges.

Can they fit a full systems interchange in at Glenmore/37th street without going on reserve land?

[mersar]

Probably not, at least without shifting it north and east a bit. There was also concern voiced at the west calgary ring road open house (which didn't deal with this area specifically) that they may need a small sliver of reserve land along highway 8 as well.

[Stang]

Wasn't the casino approved by the province on the understanding that an agreement would be reached to build the ring road through the lands? Is there any recourse at all now that they didn't keep their end of the deal?

I don't know the specifics regarding the casino arrangements, but I have heard the city reminding (to put it nicely) the Tsuu T'ina nation that their "legal" access point is at Anderson Road. I believe that the city isn't obligated to provide a connection anywhere else.

This could have an impact on the casino, for sure.

The Tsuu T'ina people obviously have the right to make this decision, and they have. But I honestly feel that they have passed up on a great opportunity that probably won't ever come around again.

[WeavedWeb]

I really don't think the bridge/tunnel option over the weaselhead will prevail. There is too much opposition from the immediately affected communities and a lack of space. Mass expropriation would be difficult as well, seen as how the expropriation would happen next to vast corridors of empty land (albeit out of the province's/city's jurisdiction, it just doesn't look right to tear up dozens of homes on the edge of the city to build a road). Jurisdictional space is obviously an issue, but seen as how physical space is not (as opposed to the case of the WLRT or Glenmore/Elbow overpass) expropriation would look bad and unnecessary. I think the only viable near-term option is to upgrade Anderson, 14 St., and 37 St. south of Fish Creek. (as well as planned improvements to Glenmore and 22X)

[para transit fellow]

Wasn't the casino approved by the province on the understanding that an agreement would be reached to build the ring road through the lands? Is there any recourse at all now that they didn't keep their end of the deal?

I don't believe there was anything tied to the ring road when the casino gaming permit went through.

edit: I should also mention that the province has granted casino licences to other first nations (stoney, enoch) with no demands for ring-road land transfer.

[Wooster]

Here's an idea, don't build it at all. Are auto movements so great between the extreme SW to the western part of the city to justify $1.5B in expenditure, possible mass expropriation, or disruption to the Weaslehead?

Could an alternative be to improve Glenmore and 14th street and perhaps introduce a portion of the 'ring' lrt network connecting MRC to Chinook? That would alleviate some of the traffic congestion.

[eternallyme]

I'm pretty sure this is the end of negotiations with the Tsuu Tina - for good.

I think the next order of business is to figure how much it would cost to go over/under the weaselhead, and to expropriate the required properties for interchanges.

Can they fit a full systems interchange in at Glenmore/37th street without going on reserve land?

In total, for a 37th Street freeway to go through (based on Google Earth), about 125 houses and two townhouse complexes would be needed.

It would require the expropriation of at least 50 houses and two multi-family residential complexes in the SE corner of the interchange north of 54th Avenue. It would need to be a 4-level interchange to get all the ramps in (even though not a lot is needed to and from the north, since 37th there is a minor arterial).

Another 70 or so houses (those fronting 37th Street south of 54th Avenue) would need to be expropriated to avoid encroaching reserve land for the lanes themselves (you could probably fit 8 lanes in there), and about 5 more houses would need to be expropriated for a 66th Avenue diamond/SPUI interchange.

Ideally, the slums which may be demolished on the west side of 37th would be expropriated, but that is on reserve land.

No expropriation is necessary south of the Glenmore Reservoir, although that would only allow diamond interchanges at 90th Avenue and Southland Drive.

Access to the casino and other lands in the Weaselhead area would have to be either via 66th Avenue or Sarcee Trail. Grade separations at 45th Street (over Glenmore) and 54th Avenue (over 37th) would be possible too, but with no direct freeway access.

[SubwayRev]

Although I'm suprised they voted it down, I'm glad they did. What a terrible waste of money it would have been to pay so much to build so little. That money can be spent so many other ways.

I'm also of the opinion that after 50 years of trying to get this land, the provice and city should walk away, build up Glenmore, and if there isn't any acess to the casino...that's too damn bad.

I believe the City has already cut the reserve off from emergency services. The city will still respond to them, but only if there isn't anything else going on; reserve emergencies are always the lowest priority.

[Nigel]

SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE.

And yes, it's time to say "fuck you" to the people who think they can hold out indefinitely for those few extra dollars. If they don't want to play, fine, we'll take our money elsewhere. Seriously, they were getting an incredible deal, tons of money, much more land in exchange, and wonderful opportunities to improve their economic prospects. This "let's drag this on for years longer to see if we can't squeeze just a few more bucks out of the deal" is crap. It's been going on for what, 10 or 20 years now?

A half billion (or whatever the figure was) could expropriate one HELL of a lot of houses to run a major road through on 37th. Or something similar. The city should be outlining plan B first thing Monday morning. Let's see how quickly the band comes back to the bargaining table if the city walks away completely.

They have a right to say no to the offer, for whatever reason they wish. It is their land and no one else and they can do as they please.

[SmokWawelski]

They are entitled to say NO. So does the city to the access from 37th. Time to play hard ball, allow access to the reserve only at designated points, no freebies, 50 or more years this has gone on without an inch of progress, this is an absolute joke.....

[SmokWawelski]

Just to add.... better that they voted No. This way we won't have to put up with protest, barricades, demands from the first nations people sometime in the future...

[Nigel]

They are entitled to say NO. So does the city to the access from 37th. Time to play hard ball, allow access to the reserve only at designated points, no freebies, 50 or more years this has gone on without an inch of progress, this is an absolute joke.....

Sounds like a bullying tactic to me: "Do what I want and as I say or else...................."

[Nigel]

Just to add.... better that they voted No. This way we won't have to put up with protest, barricades, demands from the first nations people sometime in the future...

I hate to say this, but there will always be protests, barricades, and demands from the first nations people. This was their land and we did take it from them with force. We owe Native people bigtime for the injustices we've caused them whether we like it or not; it's the price we have to pay for taking away their land and a huge aspect of their cultural identity.

[ksnaden]

I hate to say this, but there will always be protests, barricades, and demands from the first nations people. This was their land and we did take it from them with force. We owe Native people bigtime for the injustices we've caused them whether we like it or not; it's the price we have to pay for taking away their land and a huge aspect of their cultural identity.

Do we have to continue compensating them until the end of time, or do you feel that after a certain period of time enough is enough?

[Dimension314]

Sounds like a bullying tactic to me: "Do what I want and as I say or else...................."

Bullying tactic? so your solution would be do everything they want while getting nothing in return?

Anyway, the best solution here is to probably just give them 50 million or something for a couple hundred meter sliver along 37st and build a bridge over the weaselhead. No homes would need to be expropriated. Added construction costs come from the remaining 450 million that wouldve gone to the band. Everyone ends up happy except the environmentalists.

Also, how does highway 22 run through their land, how was an agreement reached in that case?

[Stang]

I hate to say this, but there will always be protests, barricades, and demands from the first nations people. This was their land and we did take it from them with force. We owe Native people bigtime for the injustices we've caused them whether we like it or not; it's the price we have to pay for taking away their land and a huge aspect of their cultural identity.

While I don't disagree about past wrongs, they were presented with a very fair, lopsided even, offer for their land. If the figures on cfcn.ca are correct, they would have obtained 2000 hectares of land in exchange for 40. Plus 275 million that could have had many benefits. I don't think that they are being bullied either - this was no low-ball offer.

I'm certainly not angry that they voted the offer down - poor planning decades ago put the province/city in this situation. And I fully respect their right to do so. I'm just a little surprised, that's all. It is clearly more important to them than dollars, cents, and a land transfer.

Now here's some food for thought (or flamebait, potentially) :) . Let me stress that I don't endorse this scenario or think it will happen. But what about expropriation? Does the province have any legal right? If the province needs someone's farm, they can essentially obtain it legally, correct? Obviously a higher-than-market-value sum of money has to change hands.

I can only imagine the bad optics of doing such a thing, and we'd definitely see people chained to bulldozers and such (and rightfully so). It would probably go all the way to the UN as a human rights issue. But could it actually happen?

[mersar]

Also, how does highway 22 run through their land, how was an agreement reached in that case?

From what I recall it was somewhat preexisting as a trail so its been grandfathered. I do seem to recall that when the province did the last round of major upgrades in the late 90's the band wasn't too in favour of some of the work.


And expropriation can't be done pretty much. Only the feds could try (I recall cases down east where they seized native lands for military uses, though not sure if anyone was compensated), and that won't happen here I guarantee

[koval95]

They have a right to say no to the offer, for whatever reason they wish. It is their land and no one else and they can do as they please.

ya but they didnt do anything good with their land for 40 years .I agree that its their land and they have the right to do anything they want with it, but who you are if you dont try to make your land better?make it prosper? Im not racsist but THEY ARE A BUNCH OF IDIOTS AND THEY FUCKED UP HARD by sayin no. Cant believe that!!!!!

[Nigel]

Im not racsist but THEY ARE A BUNCH OF IDIOTS AND THEY FUCKED UP HARD by sayin no.

Sounds like something you would hear on Family Guy. And maybe they don't want to develop that land? Maybe it has some sacred value to it that we don't understand or appreciate.

Development does not equal improvement in every scenario.

[Nigel]

Do we have to continue compensating them until the end of time

In all likelyhood yes, as they will never forget all the injustices that have been bestowed on their people, and no amount of money can make up for the bitter past.

[Calgarian]

I thought highway 22 was on crown land.

[koval95]

Sounds like something you would hear on Family Guy. And maybe they don't want to develop that land? Maybe it has some sacred value to it that we don't understand or appreciate.

Development does not equal improvement in every scenario.

:haha: i got a little bit pissed off but if it would have some sacred value they wouldnt fuck up their appartements and at least would clean up their mess:shrug:

[freeweed]

They have a right to say no to the offer, for whatever reason they wish. It is their land and no one else and they can do as they please.

And I have a right to point out how stupid and short-sighted they are.

This is a textbook case of where our native peoples are now screwing themselves. The government is coming in with much more than a fair deal, something that will improve their lives tremendously and help move them away from the reserve life, which is just about universally agreed to be one of the worst decisions made in Canadian history.

This isn't "we stole their land and we continue to screw them over" (whoever "we" is, anyway, I've never been involved in any of that). This is a clear cut case of a people acting against their best interests, and will end up making things worse for themselves.

As a Frenchman whose family lost their land and life to the English on two different continents, I've managed to get over what happened centuries ago, and my life is nothing but the better for it. It's time we actually teach some history to all peoples of Canada, so we can stop this fiction that there is something different or special about what happened here.

Anyone who disagrees is free to hop on the next flight to Europe.

[Nigel]

And I have a right to point out how stupid and short-sighted they are.

This is a textbook case of where our native peoples are now screwing themselves. The government is coming in with much more than a fair deal, something that will improve their lives tremendously and help move them away from the reserve life, which is just about universally agreed to be one of the worst decisions made in Canadian history.

This isn't "we stole their land and we continue to screw them over" (whoever "we" is, anyway, I've never been involved in any of that). This is a clear cut case of a people acting against their best interests, and will end up making things worse for themselves.

As a Frenchman whose family lost their land and life to the English on two different continents, I've managed to get over what happened centuries ago, and my life is nothing but the better for it. It's time we actually teach some history to all peoples of Canada, so we can stop this fiction that there is something different or special about what happened here.

Anyone who disagrees is free to hop on the next flight to Europe.

Do we know that this is for "their best interests"? Do we know that this money will go to the people of that nation and not just pocketed by the band and associates? Money doesn't always equal improvement.

[Nigel]

:haha: i got a little bit pissed off but if it would have some sacred value they wouldnt fuck up their appartements and at least would clean up their mess:shrug:

This is some pretty stereotypical opinions on native reserves; they are not all slums. I've seen some nice and well kept reserves. And when was the last time you drove around in any Canadian city or town and saw lawns unmoved, old junk cars lying in the streets and in back yard, dogs and cats running loose, etc. I've seen so much of this in white and asian neighborhoods; natives aren't the only people who can live like pigs.

Oh, and I'm of the belief that we did screw them over and abuse them for hundreds of years, so if they want to screw us over and prevent us from paving over some beautiful land with cement and asphalt to make way for more urban sprawl and pollution that we did impose upon them, I say all the power to them; we deserve to get screwed over by them once in a while.

[koval95]

1111

[greenboy]

Good for them! I think whatever they voted for is obviously the right decision for the band. It's a good lesson that not everything can be bought. And I wouldn't trust Alberta's politicians either. People should be respecting their decision instead of attacking them. It's not very classy people.

[Nigel]

Good for them! I think whatever they voted for is obviously the right decision for the band. It's a good lesson that not everything can be bought. And I wouldn't trust Alberta's politicians either. People should be respecting their decision instead of attacking them. It's not very classy people.


EXACTLY :tup: :tup: :tup:

I'm not surprised by the reaction at all; it's very typical of people to throw tantrums when they can't get what they want.

[freeweed]

Do we know that this is for "their best interests"? Do we know that this money will go to the people of that nation and not just pocketed by the band and associates? Money doesn't always equal improvement.

Well, we know the single biggest negative thing about reserve life - lack of opportunity, leading to depression, leading to substance abuse, leading to suicide. It's been the same story on Canada's reserves for 100+ years now, and everyone knows it and agrees about it. Chiefs hate what it does to their people, the people hate what it does to their children, the rest of the country hates to see an entire race basically spiral continually downwards with no sign of ever recovering. Every generation just gets worse and worse off.

When opportunity knocks on your door, you seize it. But hey, if life on the reserve is golden and they want to continue the status quo, more power to them. It sure sounds like a real fun place whenever you hear a reserve member talk about it.

That being said, you're right in that the money could have been swallowed by the band leaders and the people could have been screwed yet again - which is another reason why things need to change, and change dramatically, before our first nations peoples will ever get out of their (self admitted) terrible situation. Too many of them are completely stuck in the system, and many chiefs use this to their own advantage. :(

[blinegunn]

In all likelyhood yes, as they will never forget all the injustices that have been bestowed on their people, and no amount of money can make up for the bitter past.

So as a mix race person 1/8 Native Indian 1/8 Irish 1/8 Scottish 1/8 English and 1/2 French Where is my compensation ??????? Hopefully the world can get over this land is mine because the color of my skin or how long i have been here. The past is to look at and learn the future is for change. :notacrook: I believe the reserve system oppresses its band members and keeps them in the 15/16 century and there leaders (most of them) as dictators.

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, Teach a man how to fish and he will live for ever"

O ya So does that me the East Indian people that weren't involved in the taking over (wars) of the Native Indian land that live in north America do not have to pay compensation ??????? :jester:

[Nigel]

So as a mix race person 1/8 Native Indian 1/8 Irish 1/8 Scottish 1/8 English and 1/2 French Where is my compensation ??????? Hopefully the world can get over this land is mine because the color of my skin or how long i have been here. The past is to look at and learn the future is for change. :notacrook: I believe the reserve system oppresses its band members and keeps them in the 15/16 century and there leaders (most of them) as dictators.

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, Teach a man how to fish and he will live for ever"

O ya So does that me the East Indian people that weren't involved in the taking over (wars) of the Native Indian land do not have to pay compensation ??????? :jester:

Tell your native Canadian ancestors who where abused in residential school, raped, exploited, enslaved and have had family and friends murdered by whites over hundereds of years, and nearly wipes out by diseases that Europeans brought over from "the old country" to just "get over it". Maybe you have "gotten over it" but not everyone has.

[WeavedWeb]

Here's an idea, don't build it at all. Are auto movements so great between the extreme SW to the western part of the city to justify $1.5B in expenditure, possible mass expropriation, or disruption to the Weaslehead?

Could an alternative be to improve Glenmore and 14th street and perhaps introduce a portion of the 'ring' lrt network connecting MRC to Chinook? That would alleviate some of the traffic congestion.
Living in the SW, I really think this is the only way to go for now. It would be a waste of money and a waste of time to build the "37th St" option, and would have negative effects on the surrounding communities. Improving the existing roads (Glenmore, 14, Anderson, etc.) would be a good near- to mid-term solution; this option could handle all of the existing traffic in the area. The real trouble now is that Providence etc. on land south of Fish Creek and south of 22x could not be allowed to proceed in the foreseeable future; the high-density communities planned would add too much traffic to the area that existing/improved roads would not be able to handle. In the long term, also, a better option would be needed as growing communities in the southeast produce more traffic that must travel to the west, northwest and southwest areas of the city.

[WeavedWeb]

Tsuu T'ina deal for Calgary ring road dead: Province
Don Braid, Calgary Herald
Published: Wednesday, July 1, 2009

CALGARY - The provincial government says the Tsuu T’ina ring road deal is dead and it’s time to find other solutions after band members voted down the agreement that took four years to negotiate.

“We’re disappointed that this wasn’t approved,” Paul Stanway, Premier Ed Stelmach’s communications director, said Wednesday.

“We felt we negotiated in good faith and it was a fair agreement for everyone. But now we have to move on and work on other options.”

But Peter Manywounds, the band’s chief negotiator, suggested there might still be room for a revised deal the band members would approve.

“We were so close,” he said. “There are some relatively minor things that could probably be resolved to the members’ satisfaction.”

He said issues that troubled members included such things as transit and gravel rights, as well as complete guarantees that the band would receive new land.

Chief Sanford Big Plume, commenting after the 60 per cent vote against the agreement on Tuesday, said “the nation will not enter into this agreement.” He did not say there couldn’t be a revised agreement.

But the province is unlikely to be swayed. The years of negotiation have already cost many millions in legal and consulting fees, as well as staff time.

The rejection is also personally embarrassing for Premier Ed Stelmach, who talked often to Big Plume and put his weight behind the deal.

Talks have continued in one way or another for more than 50 years. This was the closest the band and province have ever come to a legal agreement.

The rejection was shattering for earnest band members like Manywounds, who worked on the project from the start and hoped the deal was done.

“Today I’m just going to sit and look at the beautiful mountains and all the green and think about things,” he said Wednesday.

A final death certificate for the Tsuu T’ina road will immediately move provincial and city focus back to a 37 St SW route, with either a bridge or tunnel across the Weaselhead. That project would itself be controversial for years.

Liberal MLA Kent Hehr immediately attacked the province for “dangling this ring road like a carrot in front of Calgary for years and it’s pretty clear now this road was never going to happen.

“We can’t forget that this was Ed Stelmach’s crew at the negotiation table. Last election, he said he could deliver when clearly he could not.”


Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald

Link (http://www.globaltv.com/globaltv/calgary/Tsuu+ring+road+deal+dead/1749392/story.html)

[craner]

Fuck.
Time to move on and get on with building a freeway that is not on Native land. They have said no and that is their right - I am truly surprised though.

[Jimby]

Maybe in retrospect we'll see that they have done us a huge favour by voting no. This freeway would have encouraged more people to live south of Fish Creek which would mean more of the same old sprawl.
We should improve the existing road network which is already so extensive it can't all be plowed in time and maintained properly in winter.

[KrisYYC]

In all likelyhood yes, as they will never forget all the injustices that have been bestowed on their people, and no amount of money can make up for the bitter past.


Every group of people or culture has endured injustices and pain at some point in history.

The Irish, Jewish, Russians.... etc. etc.

I think Italy should be compensating me. My family tree originates in the areas of France that were invaded by the Roman empire around 52BC.

I will never forget that.

[vid]

How dare they not let us build a freeway through their land! We offered them money!!! We are entitled to our entitlements! :rant:

[Calgarian]

This really is a huge blow to the SW, half the communities built there were under the assumption that they would get a freeway, as much as we seem to be aginst sprawl and freeways, this really is a necessity, MacLeod trail, Elbow and 14th can't handle all the traffic. I think there should be a study about making 37th a freeway, I don't know how it can work though.

[vid]

Funny. Thunder Bay's freeways were built under the assumption we would get a city.

[Dice]

As much as I'm surprised at the band voting no to this great deal from the govt., what doesn't surprise me is how much some ppl are complaining about the vote.

I'm surprised and disappointed they voted no as in my eyes this deal seemed like it would be great financial help to them, but who am I to know what's best for them?

However, at the end of the day they voted no & the city has to find another way to improve transit in SW Calg. Not as simple as it seems but hey it's reality.

[Beltliner]

Funny. Thunder Bay's freeways were built under the assumption we would get a city.

^^^ Spasibo za shtuki, tovarishch. :lmao:

Could use a little lightening of the mood and ratcheting down of the rhetoric here.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am glad there will now be no big box mall on reserve land, and other low density business park uses (which was planned for the area that was cut off from the rest of the reserve).

If a work around is not built, the city and province will have to seriously examine currently planned city growth patterns, and will hopefully invest the savings in a Go Train style system.

[vid]

In the 1970s or 1980s, I can't recall exactly, a reserve in Saskatchewan received tens of millions of dollars in oil royalties. Until that time, they had effectively lived in squalor. Because of the sudden influx of money and the rapid change in lifestyle, much of the reserve ended up addicted to drugs. The case in Saskatchewan was likely due to terrible leadership and the way things were at the time, but it is a cause for concern. Big sudden changes, good or bad, can cause repercussions that not everyone can deal with, and could do more harm than good in the long run. This has to be considered.

And seriously, some of you need to step back for a minute and look at your comments.

ya but they didnt do anything good with their land for 40 years .I agree that its their land and they have the right to do anything they want with it, but who you are if you dont try to make your land better?make it prosper?

In the past, wetlands and swamps were considered "wasted land" that needed improvement. So we filled them in so that we could "make them better". The term for this really was "improvement". Then we got floods and realized "Hey! These things serve a purpose!", and now most wetlands are protected. They might not use their land for something you consider to be good, but they are obviously using it for something that is to them worth more than 250 million dollars. There is more to prosperity than money.

[93JC]

Meh.

Expropriate the houses in Lakeview and start building along the reserve border. Bridge it over Weaselhead à la Stoney over Bowness.

Done.

[freeweed]

In the 1970s or 1980s, I can't recall exactly, a reserve in Saskatchewan received tens of millions of dollars in oil royalties. Until that time, they had effectively lived in squalor. Because of the sudden influx of money and the rapid change in lifestyle, much of the reserve ended up addicted to drugs. The case in Saskatchewan was likely due to terrible leadership and the way things were at the time, but it is a cause for concern. Big sudden changes, good or bad, can cause repercussions that not everyone can deal with, and could do more harm than good in the long run. This has to be considered.

Plenty of reserves in Canada don't have millions in oil royalties and yet much of their population is addicted to who knows what. Go ask the folks in northern Manitoba what's causing it all. Oil royalties are not the problem, the reserve system is. The only thing that will change that is to stop treating a peoples like a captive population, and to give them some hope in their lives.

I've spent my entire life listening about how this or that injustice was done, and how this or that government handout is needed to "save" reserve peoples - yet things have only EVER gotten worse. Something serious needs to be done because what we're allowing to happen (heck, what we're deliberately doing, who do you think funds all of this) is worse than genocide.

There's nothing special about the situation here; this has happened many times before and will happen many times again. Peoples around the world, when isolated and given zero opportunities in life, but aware of an outside world, inevitably have these problems. Like it or not, those problems only go away once those people are fully welcomed into the larger society surrounding them. It's not like there's some genetic defect preventing native peoples from having a better life - all of it is caused by how they're raised and educated TODAY. Not 150 years ago, no one was alive back then.

The only other possible solution is for everyone else to pack up their bags and go back overseas. Any volunteers? My family has been here about 15 generations, so it might be hard to get all of us on the same boat...

[koval95]

build a bridge over 37 st Sw and no more traffic problems

[Yume-sama]

build a bridge over 37 st Sw and no more traffic problems

This would be lovely.

And I wonder who would riot more if the city played hardball and "accidentally had to" cut off access to the Grey Eagle Casino, the T'su Tina people or the senior citizens in the area. :haha:

[Slug]

In the 1970s or 1980s, I can't recall exactly, a reserve in Saskatchewan received tens of millions of dollars in oil royalties. Until that time, they had effectively lived in squalor. Because of the sudden influx of money and the rapid change in lifestyle, much of the reserve ended up addicted to drugs.

It is still happening in Hobbema near Edmonton today. Apparently kids still get royalty paychecks worth more than 100k when they turn 18 and typically it goes to one of the handfull Gangs in the area in exchange for drugs. Unfortunately about a year ago it came to a head when a young kid was shot and killed in the crossfire between these rival gangs.

[Nigel]

The bottom line is that this group of Native Canadians said no to the City of Calgary and Province of Alberta. Calgarians and Albertans need to just deal with the bands wishes and find an alternative to their sprawling freeway issues.

[MichaelS]

It is still happening in Hobbema near Edmonton today. Apparently kids still get royalty paychecks worth more than 100k when they turn 18 and typically it goes to one of the handfull Gangs in the area in exchange for drugs. Unfortunately about a year ago it came to a head when a young kid was shot and killed in the crossfire between these rival gangs.

I went to high school in Wetaskiwin, where students from Hobema would also go. You could always tell when one turned 18, as there would be a brand new Mustang or Camaro or Silverado in the school parking lot. I must admit though, if I was handed $100,000 at 18, I probably wouldn't have used it to buy mutual funds....

[blinegunn]

Every group of people or culture has endured injustices and pain at some point in history.

The Irish, Jewish, Russians.... etc. etc.

I think Italy should be compensating me. My family tree originates in the areas of France that were invaded by the Roman empire around 52BC.

I will never forget that.

:previous: I agree Some people would rather have a poor me/ the world owes me mentality. but anyways if they are not willing work a fair deal then to bad for them,

[lubicon]

The bottom line is that this group of Native Canadians said no to the City of Calgary and Province of Alberta. Calgarians and Albertans need to just deal with the bands wishes and find an alternative to their sprawling freeway issues.

That is absolutely true, no question about it. They have every right to vote no if they so desire. However they must understand that there are consequences to their actions (whether they had voted yes or no). In this case they have quite likely given up their 'right' to decent access in and out of the reserve, and some very good business opportunities that would have gone along with that. That is their right to do so but they can't come back in 20 years and complain about being cut off from the city, having no jobs for their people etc. They have made their decision and now they will have to live with whatever the consequences are.

[wild wild west]

What is frustrating about this decision - apart from the fact that the Province and City wasted years negotiating with the Tsuu T'ina to work out a resolution in which I didn't see any downside for the Reserve (they got a whack of money AND more land than they were giving up) is the fact that the Tsuu T'ina decision not only amounts to passing up on a fiscal windfall, but also potential future economic development on the Reserve. We all agree that it was their decision to make, but that doesn't mean they made the right one. And while I am sympathetic to the plight of native peoples, the whole "we screwed them so now they should screw us" approach Nigel seems to advocate is counterproductive for all involved.

Otherwise, from a taxpayer point of view I'm fine with this. We (meaning taxpayers) were definitely giving up much more than we were getting, and another solution may ultimately be both cheaper and more timely (remember, even if the Tsuu T'ina were to accept the deal it would still require federal approval). If we find a way to deal with this in a way that better serves taxpayer interests, we may be thanking the Tsuu T'ina down the road.

[freeweed]

www, I'm really starting to agree with that angle. I never was happy with half a billion being spent on essentially nothing - let's face it, that kind of dough could buy entire neighbourhoods, more than enough space for a 20 lane freeway.

This could end up being much better for Calgary in the long run. Hell, take that half billion and start the SELRT!

[frinkprof]

And while I am sympathetic to the plight of native peoples, the whole "we screwed them so now they should screw us" approach Nigel seems to advocate is counterproductive for all involved.True. However, to be fair, I see the same sort of sentiment, but in reverse, being bandied about by some in conversation, online message boards, in comments pages, etc., mostly taking the form of blocking access to their casino, or other such things.

I agree, this might be an opportunity to find a better solution, or rethink the ring road idea entirely. I don't think it will happen this way, but I'd like to see improvements to existing roads (14th Street, Glenmore Trail, Anderson Road, etc.), and then have some of the problem be solved by transit connections. The 162nd Ave. ROW reserved for transit could help those deep SW communities, and I'd like to see a portion of a ring LRT line from the West LRT to the South LRT.

[Bigtime]

Meh.

Expropriate the houses in Lakeview and start building along the reserve border. Bridge it over Weaselhead à la Stoney over Bowness.

Done.

I want that bridge designed by a STARchitect! :whip:

I don't really know what to think of this decision, seems shortsighted to me but it was theirs to make.

I too am of the thought that we do need this ring road, just for the sake of efficient truck movement through or around our city. Something needs to be done.

[Oliver Klozov]

I am not surprised one bit that they voted NO.

A friend worked in the land department of Esso and for about 12 years worked on the Mackenzie Valley gas pipeline. Every time they thought they had a deal, the natives would start demanding more. Finally Esso just said screw it and told the feds they were done negotiating. If the feds want a pipeline built, they can get the land.

The province should not go back to the table; it would net the same result over and over again. Such is the reality of the welfare state.

I don't believe the province or the feds have the right to expropriate any reserve land.

Hwy 22 - the portion of Hwy 22 through the Redwood Meadows area is on land purchased many years ago from the band. As in most or all cases where highways run through native lands, this was likely a land exchange. When the TCH land through the Stoney reserve was acquired it was done on 50 acres for 1 acre basis. There are now additional pieces of reserve north of Waiporous. I have heard that the land required to upgrade the 1A through the reserve has been acquired on a 100 to 1 basis. Man that's expensive.

When the province wanted to upgrade Hwy 22, normally additional ROW would be required but similar negotiations fell apart again and again. Finally the province just scaled back the planned upgrade and built what's there now on the existing ROW. Any suggestion that Hwy 22 could be used as an alternate ring road route would suffer the same fate.

The TCH in Banff - the feds have been negotiating for years with the Siksika nation over a land claim within Banff National Park near Castle Junction. If you've driven to Lake Louise, you may have noticed the teepees set up just north of the highway. If you done it recently, you may also have noticed that all the clearing for the new twinning has been done save for a 2-3 kilometre stretch just west of Castle. I will bet that short stretch of highway will remain 2 lanes and a bottleneck for at least the next 20 years. The feds are probably very afraid (and rightly so) that if they give the Siksika the land a casino will pop up the following year!

[craner]

I am not surprised one bit that they voted NO.

The TCH in Banff - the feds have been negotiating for years with the Siksika nation over a land claim within Banff National Park near Castle Junction. If you've driven to Lake Louise, you may have noticed the teepees set up just north of the highway. If you done it recently, you may also have noticed that all the clearing for the new twinning has been done save for a 2-3 kilometre stretch just west of Castle. I will bet that short stretch of highway will remain 2 lanes and a bottleneck for at least the next 20 years. The feds are probably very afraid (and rightly so) that if they give the Siksika the land a casino will pop up the following year!

God I hope not. :(

[freeweed]

Wow, I never knew that bit about the Banff claim, although I have seen the teepees.

I'm not sure I understand the thinking here. If native peoples can claim *any* land at all, let alone land in a 120+ year old national park, why can't they just claim ALL of the land in Canada? And the US? And South America?

I don't "get" how one claim is any more valid than another. Weren't these generally nomadic peoples (at least this far north, anyway)? I thought it was well known that the entire Bow valley through the mountains was used seasonally for thousands of years. Why can't they just claim the entire park?

[mersar]

The claims usually go back to trying to say that the treaties they signed gave them parcel x, y and z, but they never actually got z so now they want it.

As for Highway 22, your pretty much dead on. I asked my dad about it as his boss lives in Bragg Creek, and he got told about the fun they had. If you know Bragg Creek theres the small triangle of land right as you get into the area where theres roads running on 3 sides. Supposedly the province had wanted to redesign those intersections during the project into a single one, but that small couple thousand square foot piece of land is part of the reserve, and the band refused to swap it for an equal sized piece where the highway was to be realigned from. So they are stuck with 3 intersections literally within a hundred feet or so of each other

[vid]

I don't believe the province or the feds have the right to expropriate any reserve land.

Reserve land is federal land. Until about 30 years ago, they could and did take their land for a whole variety of reasons. I'm pretty sure they can expropriate it but it is controversial.

As for being selective in which pieces of land they claim, they typically have a reason behind it. The mountains south of Thunder Bay for example are claimed by local Ojibwe to be the spiritual home of Animikii, the Thunderbird, and so the mountains have great spiritual importance to them, especially Mount McKay. In Ochichagwe'babigo'inning, there was a rock that had spiritual significance that was destroyed by the government for a dam, and they are still quite upset over it. The area outside of the rock had no real value to them though, that spot was important because of the rock itself. Ipperwash Park in Ontario is a burial ground, it was expropriated during WWII, using the War Measures Act. It was supposed to be given back to them when the war ended but wasn't, which culminated in the incident in 1995. The park is being given back to them this year.

They were semi-nomadic (they settled in areas and had limited agriculture during summers in some places) but they didn't just wander aimlessly around the continent, they stayed in a general area, and many landmarks in those areas are significant to them while much of the land is just land. They could claim it, but it is likely that they just want a certain part that has spiritual significance. I think we should look into some sort of land-held-in-trust partnership thing for such locations. Not have the landmarks specifically their land but have them protected as landmarks of spiritual importance so that they aren't destroyed. As minor as many of them may be, they are part of our nation's cultural history.

Additionally it should be noted that in aboriginal culture, at least before European contact, the concept of owning land was unheard of and alien to them, which is why they were conned into giving so much of it away for so little. They didn't understand the concept and were taken advantage of. In many cases in the former Hudson Bay territories, their land was ceded to the crown in treaties, in exchange for various rights like free education and the ability to hunt on their land at any time for sustenance. They frequently didn't receive all of the lands reserved for them. All the existing reserves are probably less than a third of what was promised, many were slowly cut down into smaller pieces and most of them weren't very big to begin with. One of the densest communities in Ontario is a reserve that has about 800 people living in a quarter square mile, because that's how big their reserve is.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Claims can be classed in very different ways.

BC is in a class of itself since most of the mainland was never covered under treaty (this is being slowly fixed).

The rest of the country most legitimate claims are based on the government carving out land from the original grants under treaties.

In Alberta, since most if not all was covered by treaties, claims can only be based on either treaty violations, or where title was not extinguished.

[Oliver Klozov]

The claims usually go back to trying to say that the treaties they signed gave them parcel x, y and z, but they never actually got z so now they want it.

Most are that exactly but the one in Banff is a fair bit more gray. Supposedly in the treaty there is mention of traditional ways of doing some things like securing materiel for lodges. Apparently way back during a drought (no doubt brought on by Red River Cart induced global warming), some Siksika men went up the Bow River and logged some large trees (probably Douglas Fir) and floated them back down the Bow. They claim the land that they logged was in the Castle Junction area and want full rights, including logging of course, to it.

I just can't imagine why those men would have ventured so far upstream and upstream of Bow Falls when Douglas Fir trees are plentiful around Canmore. :shrug:

[Wooster]

I want that bridge designed by a STARchitect! :whip:

Believe it or not, about 6 months ago I heard a rumour that the Province had approached Calatrava's office (haha, yeah I know!) about a potential bridge over the Weaselhead. Something like a 1.6 km bridge. Maybe the writing on the wall was there already. I think the tactic was that if there was going to be huge opposition from the environmental side, make it a beautiful component of the landscape.

take that with a massive grain of salt. I don't remember the source or how credible that might be.

[You Need A Thneed]

Believe it or not, about 6 months ago I heard a rumour that the Province had approached Calatrava's office (haha, yeah I know!) about a potential bridge over the Weaselhead. Something like a 1.6 km bridge. Maybe the writing on the wall was there already. I think the tactic was that if there was going to be huge opposition from the environmental side, make it a beautiful component of the landscape.

take that with a massive grain of salt. I don't remember the source or how credible that might be.

If that happened, that just might become the world's most expensive bridge in terms of dollars spent per metre of width of the body of water it would cross.

Can you imagine the 1.6 km high leaning tower that would support the cable stays? ;)

[MalcolmTucker]

^ I don't know, the River Tarn is maybe 50 m across which the Millau Viaduct crosses (2400m long, ~€400 million). I know the span would be shorter, but more lanes. With surface approaches, I wouldn't be surprised if a stacked highway makes the most sense to save expropriation dollars.

With construction prices being what they are, and lower house values, it might make sense to move on the project really fast. It may save money in the end. (for the inner ring road)

[Wooster]

If a bridge had to be built there, I'd love to see something like the Millau Viaduct in France, which is a Foster project.

http://northernva.typepad.com/rubicon3/images/2007/05/14/viaduct.jpg

[SmokWawelski]

So now that we have established that the 50+ years of negotiations has failed we move on. Save money for the tax payer and come up with a much better solution. I am glad they voted No...this way Calgary will not be hostage whenever money runs dry.

And to Nigel....I realize that the "big bad white man" is at fault for everything around the world, but somewhere along people need to take responsibility for their own actions (or lack of). You mention the residential school issues. The aboriginals won court battle with the federal government, they received compensation for what was done to them.....now they complain that the amount of money that the victims received has caused them to either develop an addiction to alcohol or drugs or allowed them to continue with their addiction, some even committing suicide as the worst case scenario......I really think that the aboriginal community needs to look internally to find solutions. Money can't solve all the problems, playing the victim card, generation after generation will not solve the problem. Looking into the mirror and being honest with one self might be a good start.

Just to stay on topic,
Could our cowboy Bronco just build it over the Weaselhead and be done with it, or 37th or tunnel it, what ever just get it done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Knoots]

Was the Millau Viaduct really 400 million Euros? Sounds like we could build something pretty fantastic for the $240 million that was supposed to go to the Tsuu Tina. I agree, something that can add to the beauty of the area and not choke off the ecosystem there would be great. I had always envisioned a behemoth-concrete-causeway type bridge. But I'm all thumbs up for something like the Millau Viaduct.

^ I don't know, the River Tarn is maybe 50 m across which the Millau Viaduct crosses (2400m long, ~€400 million). I know the span would be shorter, but more lanes. With surface approaches, I wouldn't be surprised if a stacked highway makes the most sense to save expropriation dollars.

[DizzyEdge]

Was the Millau Viaduct really 400 million Euros? Sounds like we could build something pretty fantastic for the $240 million that was supposed to go to the Tsuu Tina. I agree, something that can add to the beauty of the area and not choke off the ecosystem there would be great. I had always envisioned a behemoth-concrete-causeway type bridge. But I'm all thumbs up for something like the Millau Viaduct.

400 mill + 20 mill for toll station = about $675 million Cdn dollars.. plus a $9-12 toll per vehicle per trip!

I liked the Herald comment that said something along the lines that at least *this* designer bridge would be worth the money.... morons.

Also someone made the comment that a bridge would be a dangerous goods route which would go over the source of our drinking water, would this be the case?

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, it would be, but it isn't rocket science to build something like this correctly. We have two dangerous goods routes already right next to water treatment intakes, so what harm does one more do as long as it is properly designed.

[You Need A Thneed]

Yeah, it would be, but it isn't rocket science to build something like this correctly. We have two dangerous goods routes already right next to water treatment intakes, so what harm does one more do as long as it is properly designed.

I imagine Class 6 dangerous goods (Toxic and Infectious substances) will be prohibited from using the bridge (if built), just like they are over the Glenmore causeway. Other classes don't affect drinking water as much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_goods
Calgary Dangerous Good Routes Map (http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/BU/engineering_services/emaps/calgary_truck_routes_map.pdf) - warning 6MB file.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, how does something that is class 6 get to the west of the city anyways?

Or will they not be able to take the northern ring road either.

[You Need A Thneed]

Well, how does something that is class 6 get to the west of the city anyways?

Or will they not be able to take the northern ring road either.

All the other dangerous goods routes are routes they can travel on. The rest of the ring road should be a dangerous goods route. But, there's no restriction on other bridges over rivers, so they will probably be fine to go over the weaselhead too.

[mersar]

We discussed this a while back, I think we'd see the SW be restricted like Glenmore as that intake would be downstream, but the rest of Stoney should be fine (the intakes on the Bow are upstream of the bridge so no worry about impacting the drinking water supply from a spill)

[Beltliner]

Here's a hint at the scope of the problem of designing and implementing Plan B:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0jfsJzA6Bjo/Sk6AiD_m24I/AAAAAAAAAP4/aYvR1Ip9x7o/s400/Crowchild+x+66+Ave+SW+Parclo+AB.jpg

[freeweed]

Hmm, pretty sure Crowchild won't enter into the equation (although I'd love it to be so). There's just too much to remove for that to be even remotely feasible.

[O-tacular]

I'm quite ambivalent to the no vote by the tsu tina nation. On the one hand traveling from one quadrant of the SW to the other (Ex:Woodbine to Westhills) is a giant pain in the ass. On the other hand, I am quite thankful the reserve is situated where it is as it has remained the only barrier to urban sprawl in this city's history. And who are we to call them stupid for rejecting development on their land and saying that it's a waste of space (this sounds like thinking from the earlier part of the 20th century not today). I think bridging the Weaslehead is a disaster waiting to happen.

[eternallyme]

Here is how I think the 37th Street alignment can be done (pretty straightforward south of the Weaselhead as the ROW is already there). The 54th Avenue crossing is optional depending on the desires of the Tsuu T'ina and Lakeview. Access to the casino would have to be via 66th Avenue (where an interchange is recommended). (Photos are my drawings)

It should be up to 8 lanes wide (probably 4 lanes initially), or 6 lanes wide with provisions for an LRT line in the median. Any outer bypass (the idea for the 16 lanes in the original alignment) would have to go out to Highway 22, with the SW section being a hole in the plan.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/4746/stoney1.jpg

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8535/stoney2.jpg

Blue - Freeway mainlines
Light blue - Surface ramps
Dark blue - 3rd level ramps
Purple - 4th level ramp
Yellow - Arterial road
Light yellow - Collector or local road
Light red - ROW boundary (anything within it would be expropriated)