[combusean]

This should stir the pot here. Our bus system shuts down at like 10:00, but our LRT is extended till 3:00 AM

Out until 2 a.m.? Toast the new light-rail hours (http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2009/07/03/20090703railatnight0703.html)
by Sean Holstege and Megan Finnerty - Jul. 3, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Valley residents and business owners will get their wish for late-night, light-rail service today when Metro starts running weekend trains until the early-morning hours.

For Friday- and Saturday-night revelers and other late travelers, the shift means that the last trains will pull out of the end-of-line stations about 3:15 a.m. rather than 12:15 a.m. Night owls can catch a train along the 20-mile route until about 3:30 a.m.

The last trains run only about halfway down the line. The final weekend trains running the entire length leave at about 2 a.m.

Patrons, business owners and civic promoters see the longer hours as an opportunity for downtown Phoenix and Tempe's Mill Avenue to prove they can achieve the kind of exciting nightlife other big cities have.

Bar and restaurant patrons will have less of a reason to go home early and less of a need to appoint a designated driver, unless they're using park-and-ride lots. Those needs hinder the area's ability to generate business and street life, some patrons say.

"I think they should have done this in the first place," said Josh Agustin, 33, bar manager at Pasta Bar, one of downtown Phoenix's newest restaurants. "The lack of light rail is the biggest complaint I hear. I think that a lot of people leave the downtown early because of light rail (hours). Now, people will come in later."

Metro spokeswoman Hillary Foose said the service also will help late-night workers and downtown concertgoers by giving them another way to get home.

"People are overwhelmingly excited about it," Foose said. "(Still) it's hard to say what reception this late-night service will receive."

To help promote the change, Kimber Lanning, director of non-profit Local First Arizona, is working with downtown music destinations to offer discounts for concerts and other incentives for riding light rail. Various bar and restaurant owners are planning similar promotions.

Local First Arizona promotes doing business with companies based in the state. Metro plans to run extended weekend hours indefinitely but has enough federal money to pay for only the first year of extra service, which costs an estimated $250,000.

The Regional Public Transportation Authority hiked fares sharply on Wednesday because of rising costs and declining municipal sales-tax revenue, which helps finance the system.

Supporters of late rail hours

Supporters of the new hours include bar and restaurant owners, 20-somethings and safety advocates. For them, late rail service represents a badly needed economic shot in the arm, a vital step toward creating a big-city nightlife in Phoenix, or a safe trip home.

Valley native Jim Saunders, 51, moved into the Encanto-Palmcroft historic neighborhood a year and a half ago, partly to be near light rail and downtown Phoenix. He says he already is seeing how light rail is connecting people from all over the Valley with downtown businesses.

"My wife and I were at Sens (Asian Tapas & Sake Bar) one night, and the people to our right were from the Christown stop and the people to the left of us were from Mesa, and they'd all taken the light rail," Saunders said. Later in the evening, younger people arrived from Tempe.

Merlin Ward, 23, of Tempe, has organized two pub crawls on the light rail, the last one drawing 350 people. Participants got price breaks at a dozen bars along the track for buying an event T-shirt. Proceeds went to charity.

"It's a great way for (people) to be able to get home without killing anybody or themselves," Ward said.

The change does have some critics. When Metro announced the idea, some people complained that late trains would do nothing to reduce drunken driving because the 20-mile starter line reaches limited areas of the Valley.

Others said the late service could encourage people to drink too much because they'll think they have time on the train to sober up before getting behind the wheel at a park-and-ride lot.

"This is our year of learning," Foose said. "We are learning. Our passengers are learning. We are trying to be as nimble as possible."

Trains among latest in the West

With longer hours, Metro is now among the latest-running light-rail services in the West. Hours for last trains range from 12:49 a.m. in Salt Lake City to 2:48 a.m. in Denver. All the cities' systems stop running earlier from Sunday through Thursday.

The later service in Phoenix is made possible by a windfall of federal stimulus money, which freed up interest repayments for construction debt from the starter line.

It will be many months before Metro knows the effectiveness of its late trains. But in other Western cities, late-night rail service has been spared recession-driven service cuts because the trains carry enough people to justify their runs.

In Phoenix, ridership falls off dramatically at night. According to an Arizona Republic analysis of data from automatic passenger counters, an average of 500 people boarded trains after 11 p.m. on each Friday and Saturday in May.

That represents a little less than 2 percent of the average ridership of those same days.

The Maricopa Association of Governments steered $300,000 in federal clean-air funds to pay for Metro's first year of late weekend service. After that, the money will have to be found by Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa to continue paying for late trains, as part of the annual Metro budget process.

In six months, Metro will evaluate the popularity of late trains. The findings and the economic conditions in a year may decide how long late service remains.

[Crawford]

This is really idiotic, and pretty much encapsulates much of the motivation behind all these new light rail lines.

Transit in the U.S. is not usually seen as moving people around and competing with the automobile; it's thought of as a theme-park ride and marginally useful downtown yuppie amenity, along with convention centers, sports venues, "live-work lofts", entertainment districts and other taxpayer subsidized crap.

Instead of giving a damn about the couple hundred thousand Phoenicians who rely on the buses to work and live, they want to redirect resources to a tinker toy train that serves a 10th of the ridership, just so some downtown bars and restaurants see a little extra revenue.

And they are using federal stimulus "clean air funds" to subsidize a few hundred (mostly affluent, white, suburban) riders to these late-night venues, while simultaneously raising bus fares and cutting service to hundreds of thousands of (mostly poor, Mexican, urban) bus riders.

I really wish American cities would fix the buses first, but they won't, because they don't really care about transit. They care about faddish downtown revitalization tools pushed by the local elites.

Other cities that have been pissing me off are Dallas and San Diego. Both waste billions on barely-used rail, while their overcrowded bus systems suck, and are getting crappier all the time.

[Strange Meat]

Seems like Denver has extended the hours as well. The last trains, on the weekends, leave downtown around 215a or so, giving people a chance to catch them after last call. Granted, the service is obviously far less frequent at, say, 11pm than it is at 3pm or 6pm, but it's still good to have one or two drunk trains running.

That said, the 10pm shut off for the busses seems absolutely ridiculous for a city that size.

[Jasonhouse]

10pm is especially harsh since lots of evening jobs let people off at 11.

[miketoronto]

Crawford already said I was going to say.

Having one line operating while all buses stop is stupid, as that one LRT line does not service much of the city.

You need a full transit network, not just one line.

[Justin10000]

Apparently, customers and businesses along the line requested the extended hours. And this only applies on the weekends.

Seems to me, the agency is listening to it's riders. Where is the call for better bus service? Is there even demand for late night bus service?

[Crawford]

Seems to me, the agency is listening to it's riders. Where is the call for better bus service? Is there even demand for late night bus service?

There are hundreds of thousands of bus riders in Phoenix, but supposedly "no demand" for service after 10 PM (which basically means 9 PM), but you think the tiny rail ridership (a couple hundred in the late night) warrants federal stimulus dollars being spent on a train for drunks?

Something tells me those bars and restaurants have workers too, the vast majority who don't live anywhere near this light rail line, and could benefit from bus service.

And I would imagine there are tons of late-night places of employment (from Wal Mart to hospitals to offices) that could use bus service.

[combusean]

In Phoenix's defense, the cost for running the trains later for 1/10th the riders is exactly 1/10th the cost of the hits the bus service took in our last round of budget costs--$2.4 million.

Transit here took a hit along with everything else. Phoenix's total budget deficit is $250 million. They had extra money left over from the light rail project and said "why not?" I'd do it too.

The point is that LRT does two things the average local bus can't: change commuting patterns by introducing new people to transit and change land use with TOD.

In true multimodal fashion, I can now go to my Saturday night haunt in Scottsdale (which has no LRT, later bus service, and an Orwellian police department) and leave 15 minutes before close using light rail, bus, and a short cab ride. That trip was impossible before they did this. The roundtrip is $10 cab and work-reimbursed transit pass vs. $50 cabfare before. When not driving is the price of two drinks for going 35 miles, you'd better believe a bloody lush like myself is gonna jump on it. :)

[FREKI]

Phoenix is a city of more than a million - why is any PT ever shut down there? :???:

[Justin10000]

There are hundreds of thousands of bus riders in Phoenix, but supposedly "no demand" for service after 10 PM (which basically means 9 PM), but you think the tiny rail ridership (a couple hundred in the late night) warrants federal stimulus dollars being spent on a train for drunks?

Well do what the rail customers did: Petition Metro, and have late-night service re-instated, and show that it is useful. I do not know the area, so I am not going to jump on the late night bus bandwagon. But from what I see, there seems to be fairly high demand for late-night rail service.


Something tells me those bars and restaurants have workers too, the vast majority who don't live anywhere near this light rail line, and could benefit from bus service. And I would imagine there are tons of late-night places of employment (from Wal Mart to hospitals to offices) that could use bus service.

Who probably took expensive cabs before the rail stayed open late enough for them to take it closer to their home, and and in effect reduce their cab fare, or hell even walk or bike from a station. The late-night rail closing does have benefits too. AND it was requested by customers, and business owners. That should tell you the ValleyMETRO is respective to customer response. Maybe residents should request the bus service be re-instated. I do not live in the area, so I am not going to preach. But it seems to me, that people wanted the late-night rail, and got it.

For what it's worth, this can be used as a precursor to re-instating the bus service, or at least routes that connect to the rail.

[miketoronto]

Thousands of riders protested the bus cuts, and Valley Metro still caught them.

This has nothing to do with what riders want. It has to do with giving the finger transit riders who rely on transit(bus riders) and putting out a red carpet for LRT riders.

Thousands of riders lost their nightly ride when the buses were cut.

[vid]

Phoenix is a city of more than a million - why is any PT ever shut down there? :???:

You have a lot to learn about North America, my friend. :(

[BTinSF]

This is really idiotic, and pretty much encapsulates much of the motivation behind all these new light rail lines.

Transit in the U.S. is not usually seen as moving people around and competing with the automobile; it's thought of as a theme-park ride and marginally useful downtown yuppie amenity, along with convention centers, sports venues, "live-work lofts", entertainment districts and other taxpayer subsidized crap.

Instead of giving a damn about the couple hundred thousand Phoenicians who rely on the buses to work and live, they want to redirect resources to a tinker toy train that serves a 10th of the ridership, just so some downtown bars and restaurants see a little extra revenue.

And they are using federal stimulus "clean air funds" to subsidize a few hundred (mostly affluent, white, suburban) riders to these late-night venues, while simultaneously raising bus fares and cutting service to hundreds of thousands of (mostly poor, Mexican, urban) bus riders.

I really wish American cities would fix the buses first, but they won't, because they don't really care about transit. They care about faddish downtown revitalization tools pushed by the local elites.

Other cities that have been pissing me off are Dallas and San Diego. Both waste billions on barely-used rail, while their overcrowded bus systems suck, and are getting crappier all the time.

You should visit Phoenix (more). I can agree with your diatribe (if I understood it correctly) concerning the late-night service which is certainly going to be a loser of money that could be better spent elsewhere. But Phoenix is a (not so) "little LA" when it comes to traffic choked freeways which cannot be built and widened fast enough to keep up with demand and are polluting the formerly clean desert air at a disgusting rate. Phoenix needs and should have decent, efficient public transportation for commuters and other users in peak hours if not late at night.

From what I've read, the new light rail is popular and well-used in the day time and I'd expect it to get more so if it can get riders from the satellite towns it serves (currently Mesa, Tempe) to the other satellite towns and to downtown Phoenix without using the freeways. Given the distances involved and the freeway congestion, busses are too slow for car owners to use for this (see one of Miketoronto's diatribes about the inefficiencies of transit) although Phoenix does have a sizable population of poor carless people who also need a way to get around. I see Phoenix's system now and in future, as it grows, as serving a similar purpose to BART: not so much intra-urban transit as a system to take the burden of traveling across town and from suburban towns to downtown off the freeways.

PS: San Diego's red trolleys are not "barely used".

[BTinSF]

Phoenix is a city of more than a million - why is any PT ever shut down there? :???:

Because the revenue from users in the middle of the night is so low that the system would require much higher subsidies from other funds at those hours than during the hours it is more heavily used and such funds are more usefully spent elsewhere. Also, every system needs maintenance and it is much more difficult and expensive to try to do maintenance on a system that is operating and than one that isn't.

People in Europe like yourself, who pay taxes that would cause Americans to revolt, seem to have difficulty understanding that the services you take for granted are not free. To keep any transit system open when it is lightly used is a decision as to how to spend resources even if those resources are going to be taken away from those who actually earned them in any case. I suspect even in Denmark another way could be found to spend the money that might benefit all those deliriously happy people even more.

[miketoronto]

BTinSF there is no excuse to justify a region of over 4 million people not having bus service after 10 PM but being able to come up with the money to keep a rail line open late that serves a very small amount of the region.

A transit system has to be a complete intergrated system, and having one rail line open does nothing if the buses are not operating.

[BTinSF]

BTinSF there is no excuse to justify a region of over 4 million people not having bus service after 10 PM but being able to come up with the money to keep a rail line open late that serves a very small amount of the region.

A transit system has to be a complete intergrated system, and having one rail line open does nothing if the buses are not operating.

I said pretty much the same thing so why address your remark to me?

[FREKI]

People in Europe like yourself, who pay taxes that would cause Americans to revolt, seem to have difficulty understanding that the services you take for granted are not free.Giving people mobility generates other incomes - a packed nightife f.ex would generate millions every night..

But of course people won't go unless they know they can get back again... you need to provide people with options before they can utilize them..
To keep any transit system open when it is lightly used is a decision as to how to spend resources even if those resources are going to be taken away from those who actually earned them in any case. I suspect even in Denmark another way could be found to spend the money that might benefit all those deliriously happy people even more.maybe the money could be spend better, but mobility is pretty much a human right here - and I gotta say I like it that way ( even if my PT usage is virtually non existant )


Anyways didn't want to start any debate or 'vs' thingy - I was just curious since it seemed strange to me...

[ardecila]

The roundtrip is $10 cab and work-reimbursed transit pass vs. $50 cabfare before. When not driving is the price of two drinks for going 35 miles, you'd better believe a bloody lush like myself is gonna jump on it. :)

Damn. What kind of pricey-ass drinks are you buying?

[J. Will]

I guess this is good for the people who

a) live within walking distance of an LRT station

AND

b) don't feel uncomfortable making that walk at night

For everyone else, I don't see how it does much good. Overnight transit service should be a dense enough network so the majority of the people in city limits are within at least somewhat reasonable walking distance of 24-hour service.

[TAZ4ate0]

BTinSF there is no excuse to justify a region of over 4 million people not having bus service after 10 PM but being able to come up with the money to keep a rail line open late that serves a very small amount of the region.

A transit system has to be a complete intergrated system, and having one rail line open does nothing if the buses are not operating.

Phoenix has bus service after 10 pm. They only cut the service after 10 pm on lightly used lines...and that is only temporary until the economy recovers.

[J. Will]

From perusing a small handful of schedules at http://www.valleymetro.org/bus_schedules/bus_routes/BusSchedules.html, I couldn't find any running after 11pm on weekdays. I started with the route running along Central since I assumed it would have service as good as any in the system.

[Strange Meat]

You need a full transit network, not just one line.

You have to start somewhere, though...

[Jasonhouse]

Damn. What kind of pricey-ass drinks are you buying?
$10 is cheap for 2 drinks imo.

[Don B.]

I was on Phoenix's light rail last Friday at 9 pm and again at 1 am, and both times it was massively packed. The first trip was standing room only. The later trip back to my car with friends was much lighter, but still decently crowded for Phoenix, which has never had any intra-city passenger rail service before December of 2008.

Granted, it was Frist Fridays (huge crowds for that) and that may have helped. I was quite popular in my costume as well. All in all, it was an amazing experience. One of my friends (who lived in NYC until 2001 and used to take the subways there all of the time) said it was the closest "big city experience" she has ever had since moving to Phoenix.

--don

[BTinSF]

:previous: If it is well-used, it SHOULD run late. But wait a few months until the novelty wears off and check a bit later--2 or 2:30 AM. Even the New York subways are scarily empty at those hours.

[jtk1519]

Other cities that have been pissing me off are Dallas and San Diego. Both waste billions on barely-used rail, while their overcrowded bus systems suck, and are getting crappier all the time.

Wait, what?

[sopas ej]

This is really idiotic, and pretty much encapsulates much of the motivation behind all these new light rail lines.

Transit in the U.S. is not usually seen as moving people around and competing with the automobile; it's thought of as a theme-park ride and marginally useful downtown yuppie amenity, along with convention centers, sports venues, "live-work lofts", entertainment districts and other taxpayer subsidized crap.

Instead of giving a damn about the couple hundred thousand Phoenicians who rely on the buses to work and live, they want to redirect resources to a tinker toy train that serves a 10th of the ridership, just so some downtown bars and restaurants see a little extra revenue.

And they are using federal stimulus "clean air funds" to subsidize a few hundred (mostly affluent, white, suburban) riders to these late-night venues, while simultaneously raising bus fares and cutting service to hundreds of thousands of (mostly poor, Mexican, urban) bus riders.

I really wish American cities would fix the buses first, but they won't, because they don't really care about transit. They care about faddish downtown revitalization tools pushed by the local elites.

Other cities that have been pissing me off are Dallas and San Diego. Both waste billions on barely-used rail, while their overcrowded bus systems suck, and are getting crappier all the time.

You're not a member of the Bus Riders Union, are you?

[Buckeye Native 001]

You have to start somewhere, though...

Given the mindset of your typical Arizonan, its amazing the damn thing got built at all.

[Leo the Dog]

Given the mindset of your typical Arizonan, its amazing the damn thing got built at all.

Very true, however, since LR's opening, I believe the public opinion has drastically changed for the better.

The city of Phoenix (pop. is closer to 2 million than 1 million) has made huge leaps in Public Transportation. As recently as 10 years ago, the region did not even have Sunday bus service! Phoenix also lacked an adequate freeway system until very recently when the Loops were finally complete.

[Strange Meat]

Very true, however, since LR's opening, I believe the public opinion has drastically changed for the better.

The city of Phoenix (pop. is closer to 2 million than 1 million) has made huge leaps in Public Transportation. As recently as 10 years ago, the region did not even have Sunday bus service! Phoenix also lacked an adequate freeway system until very recently when the Loops were finally complete.

I remember growing up as a young teen in an area with no discernible public transportation network at all and thinking that they were overrated... Then I went and visited a friend living in London and it was like "damn, yeah, this is pretty cool!"

[jamesinclair]

"With longer hours, Metro is now among the latest-running light-rail services in the West. Hours for last trains range from 12:49 a.m. in Salt Lake City to 2:48 a.m. in Denver. All the cities' systems stop running earlier from Sunday through Thursday."

As a sad comparison, Boston starts shutting down at 12:15 (when trains leave their terminus) will all service done by 1:25am (when trains arrive at their final destinations).

Yes, including friday and saturday.

Even worse is that Sunday service doesnt start until after 6am, so its hard to wait for the first train of the day....


My point being, congrats Phoenix, I wish we had the same...

[miketoronto]

"With longer hours, Metro is now among the latest-running light-rail services in the West. Hours for last trains range from 12:49 a.m. in Salt Lake City to 2:48 a.m. in Denver. All the cities' systems stop running earlier from Sunday through Thursday."

As a sad comparison, Boston starts shutting down at 12:15 (when trains leave their terminus) will all service done by 1:25am (when trains arrive at their final destinations).

Yes, including friday and saturday.

Even worse is that Sunday service doesnt start until after 6am, so its hard to wait for the first train of the day....


My point being, congrats Phoenix, I wish we had the same...


Boston has bus service however that operates latter than 10PM and services much more of the region than one LRT line in Phoenix.

[Attrill]

This is a really interesting article (http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-avenue/the-rise-rail-phoenix) about the success of the Phoenix light rail line, and how it differs from more traditional rail systems.

Every day, Valley Metro attracts some 33,000 riders, way above the projected 26,000. But what’s interesting is the clientele. Unlike systems elsewhere, which are used principally by commuters, the 20 miles of rail in Phoenix running along the central spines of Phoenix and then through Tempe to Mesa are used largely by students shuttling between Arizona State University’s downtown and Tempe campuses, and people going to restaurants, bars, ball games, and cultural events downtown. Only 27 percent of the system’s riders use it for getting to work (compared to 60 percent elsewhere), which suggests that for now at least the Phoenix light rail will flourish as a sort of jitney service supporting a post-industrial metropolis’ ongoing cultivation of a classic entertainment district downtown, higher education there and in Tempe, and associated nodes of new and intensified development along Central Avenue.

This would explain a lot about why they decided to extend the hours beyond bus lines.

There are also signs that it is helping to change the sprawl of Phoenix in some small ways:

by the way, the system seems to be delivering day-to-day economic benefits. According to the Times, downtown Phoenix saw its revenues increase 13 percent in the first quarter of 2009, while the rest of the city saw a revenue decline of 16 percent.

Very good things all around.

(and yeah, $10 is not much for 2 drinks. Under that you need to either start drinking better beer or tipping better ;) )

[dchan]

(and yeah, $10 is not much for 2 drinks. Under that you need to either start drinking better beer or tipping better ;) )

I think he was referring to the $50 cab ride, as opposed to the $10 cab ride and the LRT ride. That would make it a $25 drink.

[Bootstrap Bill]

Why can't LA do the same with their system?

Is it maintenance? Can they do it every other night instead of every night? If so, they could run shuttle service on one track.

[LAofAnaheim]

Why can't LA do the same with their system?

Is it maintenance? Can they do it every other night instead of every night? If so, they could run shuttle service on one track.

I'm not part of this board...but I think this question should be more suited for the Los Angeles Transportation board. As well....you can ask the same question to San Francisco (BART), which shuts down earlier than LA's system, DART, SD Trolley, et.c.. and all other rail systems in the US. Only Chicago and New York offer late night service. Let's not marginalize LA as the only system that doesn't offer this (considering LA's actually runs 'til 1 am and others shut down at 12 am).

[volguus zildrohar]

^^PATCO in Philadelphia/South Jersey runs 24/7 as well. It's nuts. I can take a train from Camden City Hall to 8th & Market in Philadelphia but I can't take a train from Philadelphia City Hall to 8th & Market.

[OhioGuy]

Certainly isn't convenient when you're able to use the rail system to get yourself to your destination, but when you're ready to head home you're out of luck. I faced that obstacle when I was staying with a friend who lived in the East Bay, but we were out late in the Castro in San Francisco. BART got us into the city, but we had a longass bus ride that didn't get us particularly close to where we needed to be once we returned to the East Bay. Meanwhile it was quite easy for me to return home at 2am via the brown line while I was living in Chicago (and of course the red line runs 24/7). At the very least it would be nice to see city's rail systems operate later on weekend nights, similar to what DC's Metrorail does. It operates until approximately 3am on Friday and Saturday nights.

[fflint]

^BART runs no trains between roughly 1:00am and 4:00am, claiming they use that time to do maintenance of the tracks and tunnels and such. They do run buses between BART stations during those hours, as part of the larger regional "owl" system (with timed connections between systems). Food for thought--if you're closing down the bar in SF, just go out to eat and by the time you're done, you can catch the 4:00am train home.

[Bootstrap Bill]

^BART runs no trains between roughly 1:00am and 4:00am, claiming they use that time to do maintenance of the tracks and tunnels and such. They do run buses between BART stations during those hours, as part of the larger regional "owl" system (with timed connections between systems). Food for thought--if you're closing down the bar in SF, just go out to eat and by the time you're done, you can catch the 4:00am train home.

Same question also applies to BART. Can they do maintenance every other day instead of every day? If so, they could run shuttle service on one track. You might have to wait more than an hour between trains, but it would be better than nothing.

[Bootstrap Bill]

I'm not part of this board...but I think this question should be more suited for the Los Angeles Transportation board. As well....you can ask the same question to San Francisco (BART), which shuts down earlier than LA's system, DART, SD Trolley, et.c.. and all other rail systems in the US. Only Chicago and New York offer late night service. Let's not marginalize LA as the only system that doesn't offer this (considering LA's actually runs 'til 1 am and others shut down at 12 am).

Good point. I'll ask there.

But to maintenance.... Do rail systems really need it every single day? If they could do it every other day, you could have a shuttle train operating on one track - 24 hour service without new construction. The service wouldn't be very frequent, but it would be better than no service at all.

[fflint]

Same question also applies to BART. Can they do maintenance every other day instead of every day? If so, they could run shuttle service on one track. You might have to wait more than an hour between trains, but it would be better than nothing.
I honestly don't know.

Many here are skeptical of the claimed necessity of track work between roughly 1:00 and 4:00am--BART does run all night on special occasions, and whenever there is a big bridge closure, for example, so cleary it's possible to run trains 24/7 at least on some weekends.

That said, BART has only one track in each direction through the Transbay Tube (the dual tunnels under the bay), so the tracks really do get a tremendous amount of usage and there is no way to route trains around whatever maintenance is taking place on the backbone of the system.

Talk of an additional train tunnel (likely to be shared with commuter rail) that would allow for all night service comes and goes, but isn't even remotely possible in current economic times.

[OhioGuy]

That said, BART has only one track in each direction through the Transbay Tube (the dual tunnels under the bay), so the tracks really do get a tremendous amount of usage and there is no way to route trains around whatever maintenance is taking place on the backbone of the system.

If they need to do track maintenance, on weekend nights could they just run a shuttle back & forth on one track and do work on the other track? Since it only takes 15 minutes to travel between Civic Center and Oakland City Center/12th Street, they'd probably only need one train that could go back & forth maybe every 20 minutes.

Depart Oakland - 12:50am
Arrive Civic Center - 1:05am
Depart Civic Center - 1:10am
Arrive Oakland - 1:25am
Depart Oakland - 1:30am
Arrive Civic Center - 1:45:am
Depart Civic Center - 1:50am
Arrive Oakland - 2:05am
Depart Oakland - 2:10am
Arrive Civic Center - 2:25am
Depart Civic Center 2:30am
Arrive Oakland 2:45am

And that time frame of 15 minutes takes into account stops at Powell, Montgomery, Embarcadero, and West Oakland. If they decided it would be too expensive to staff additional stations, they could just make it non-stop between Civic Center and Oakland City Center which would speed up the travel time even more.

[volguus zildrohar]

Track/tunnel maintenance is the same excuse SEPTA uses for shutting the subways down around 12:30 although Philadelphia had 24-hour subway service until 1991. There is certainly some weight to it - the price New Yorkers pay for 24-hour subway service are constant weekend G.O. shutdowns that reroute and/or somewhat shutdown entire sections of the system so the work does need to get done. I would, however, argue that extended service certainly works better than shuttle buses at relatively early times for systems that do shut down.