[Northern Light]

There's probably already a thread that covers this, as I know many friends from Ottawa who have discussed it, so my apologies if I missed finding it.

AS a past and future tourist to Ottawa I'm interested in whether there are any serious plans to bring VIA back to downtown.

That's the one thing that really bothers me is that train service to Ottawa leaves one out in the boonies in need of a cab.

Any thoughts or insights would be greatly appreciated.

[Dado]

There are no such plans whatsoever, serious or not. It's completely off the radar of both the City of Ottawa and the National Capital Commission and VIA has more things to worry about than trying to deal with the above two to get a downtown station location.


As an indication of how nuts things are, the City of Ottawa through its mayor has not endorsed the effort of the mayor of Québec, supported by the mayors of Windsor, London, Toronto, Montreal and Laval, in pushing to have real movement on HSR. And this morning on CBC radio, though I was a bit sleepy, I heard that we had declined to provide $45,000 to help study the economic benefits of HSR. Given that an HSR line between Montreal and Toronto doesn't necessarily have to pass through Ottawa, our lack of active support and involvement in the HSR study and promotion efforts is disconcerting.

But don't worry: I'm sure if someone came up with a proposal for a high speed intercity bus (HSIB) on a dedicated road (busway), we'd be there in a flash. :tup:

[Aylmer]

I think that rail to Union would be great, though there are No plans to do so.

If it was to be done, I would double-track it between the Nicholas and Col. By Drive then gradually sink it until Laurier St., where it would enter a tunnel leading to the station.

It would be great!

:)

[Sens1992]

I think that rail to Union would be great, though there are No plans to do so.

If it was to be done, I would double-track it between the Nicholas and Col. By Drive then gradually sink it until Laurier St., where it would enter a tunnel leading to the station.

It would be great!

:)

Man, you have too much vision. Ottawa's council and friends don't! I fully agree with you, it would be awesome! That would really be the Gateway to the Nation's Capital with the NCC parkway, VIA Trains, Nicholas st and LRT (Transitway). Wow, it would be something but keep on dreaming, I don't beleive in our local politicians...:cheers:

[lrt's friend]

You will never see intercity rail between Colonel By and Nicholas unless it is tunneled into Union Station at $$$$++++++++. Rail yards, whether for passenger trains or freight trains are universally eyesores. Even if it is just double tracked, if any part is at grade along this corridor, you will never get away with it. We have built million dollar condos right next Nicholas Street where the canal and Colonel By turns to the west and those owners will never put up with heavy rail rumbling by. Also consider the security fencing needed that will destroy the vista, one of the best in the city. This ship sailed when they pulled up the tracks in 1966. The most practical solution is to connect the current rail station with downtown with the best possible rapid transit.

[Aylmer]

You will never see intercity rail between Colonel By and Nicholas unless it is tunneled into Union Station at $$$$++++++++. Rail yards, whether for passenger trains or freight trains are universally eyesores. Even if it is just double tracked, if any part is at grade along this corridor, you will never get away with it. We have built million dollar condos right next Nicholas Street where the canal and Colonel By turns to the west and those owners will never put up with heavy rail rumbling by. Also consider the security fencing needed that will destroy the vista, one of the best in the city. This ship sailed when they pulled up the tracks in 1966. The most practical solution is to connect the current rail station with downtown with the best possible rapid transit.

Well, it will never really be at grade: always half or fully sunken either. The walls could be |_ _| or \_ _/. The tracks would slip under Greenfield Ave. then under the Nicholas/417 interchange and an at-grade crossing with the Transitway before following the old alignment to the current tracks.

And whereas the Nicholas has trucks passing on it during all hours at 100km/h, the trains would pass at half the speed every couple of hours! Which would make more noise?

As as for the Trainyards, it could work like this:

A train from Montreal pulls into the station and drops off the passengers. That same train will be leaving for Toronto in 2 hours, so it goes back to the current rail yard then, when the time comes to pick up the passengers, it goes back to the station, takes the passengers and leaves.

That way, there is no need for a Downtown railyard!

:)

[Rathgrith]

Its better/cheaper to leave the VIA station now and build LRT to the downtown from the station. Whenever I go to Toronto, I always get on the subway and take it at least 4 stations. Which is similarly to the set up in Ottawa now.

[d_jeffrey]

Its better/cheaper to leave the VIA station now and build LRT to the downtown from the station. Whenever I go to Toronto, I always get on the subway and take it at least 4 stations now. Which is similarly to the set up in Ottawa now.

I never found the VIA station to be that far in the first place, sure it's not directly downtown, but it's a great looking station, and with the metro in place, it will mostly resolve the issue.

[Rathgrith]

^Its a great looking station. I love the modern feel of it as I walk to/from the train. Maybe if they get rid of that god awful train yard shopping strip mall and build an employment node, will the Ottawa Station (which really needs a better sounding name!) become a much more usable and useful centre of business. I mean, Air France operates a shuttle from there to Dorval. It has allot of potential.

[Aylmer]

I never found the VIA station to be that far in the first place, sure it's not directly downtown, but it's a great looking station, and with the metro in place, it will mostly resolve the issue.

Maybe if there was a shuttle train to DT...

But I still think it would be great to have Rail back in the city!
Though I know it will never happen... :(

:)

[d_jeffrey]

Maybe if there was a shuttle train to DT...

But I still think it would be great to have Rail back in the city!
Though I know it will never happen... :(

:)

I still you guys found the idea stupid, but an underground rail station at Bronson and Albert would not have been expensive, especially when they are doing the cut and cover section for LRT. Plus it could have given a new closer O-Train station and possible QC commuter link at the same time.

Oh yeah, some citizens are suing the city of Gatineau because of the RapiBus, since the studies never included an O-Train type service, plus no environmental assessments with the BAPE was done. I LOLed about the situation. Seems that the STO is following Ottawa's tactics too much.

[Davis137]

Just reading what all of you have said about what the city should've/could've as far as mass transit goes, is quite infuriating. NOT because all of you are saying it, but just what is being said. The NCC and City Hall really need to cowboy the eff up and get with not only the times, but the longrun. You can't have a big city with a small town attitude forever. The inabilty to decide what to do with anything of consequence in this town is simply baffling.

I'm gonna go for a ride or run with the dog to take my mind off the insanity!

LOL!

[Dado]

Just reading what all of you have said about what the city should've/could've as far as mass transit goes, is quite infuriating. NOT because all of you are saying it, but just what is being said. The NCC and City Hall really need to cowboy the eff up and get with not only the times, but the longrun. You can't have a big city with a small town attitude forever. The inabilty to decide what to do with anything of consequence in this town is simply baffling.

If only we did have a small town attitude - we might actually get something done. Look at what the small towns around us are doing: up in the Ottawa Valley they're working - across a provincial divide no less - to get a commuter rail service going while points to the east have set up a rural bus transit service as a pre-cursor to commuter rail. Smiths Falls is doing its damnedest to maintain an economy. Over in Perth they've carved out a nice economic niche for themselves.

I think we're beset not by a small town attitude but by a bureaucratic and/or suburban one.

Small towns, after all, don't go around building $200M tunnelized bus stations without any rationale for it.

[Suzie]

Oh yeah, some citizens are suing the city of Gatineau because of the RapiBus, since the studies never included an O-Train type service.

The City of Gatineau considered four options: (1) reserved bus lanes, (2) Rapibus, (3) LRT, and (4) “trains de banlieue”. The fourth option looked a lot like the O-Train.

[d_jeffrey]

The City of Gatineau considered four options: (1) reserved bus lanes, (2) Rapibus, (3) LRT, and (4) “trains de banlieue”. The fourth option looked a lot like the O-Train.

No, it was based on the AMT and GO-Train studies. Do you really consider the O-Train as being a heavy rail commuter train? The O-Train is more of a RER than anything else.

Off topic, but the electrification studies for the Lakeshore line are available, it's interesting to see the cost savings and higher speed achievements by converting Diesel to Electricity.

[Suzie]

But don't worry: I'm sure if someone came up with a proposal for a high speed intercity bus (HSIB) on a dedicated road (busway), we'd be there in a flash. :tup:

I vaguely recall coming across such a proposal for the Calgary to Edmonton corridor. I don’t know how serious it was. Probably wasn't. If I remember correctly, a dedicated corridor would have allowed inter-city buses to travel at a higher speed (up to 160km/hr?). Even with strong usage, the number of buses per hour would not be very high, so the corridor would look under-utilized. There would be inevitable pressure to open it up to other traffic.

It would make much more sense to consider “truckways”, especially in a corridor like Highway 401. Even in that case, I doubt the business case would be strong enough.

[Suzie]

No, it was based on the AMT and GO-Train studies. Do you really consider the O-Train as being a heavy rail commuter train? The O-Train is more of a RER than anything else.

The option had 11 stations on the Quebec-side and terminated at Bayview (where the vast majority of riders would transfer to the Transitway). The headways were 20 minutes. So operationally speaking, it does not look very different from the O-Train. I guess it could have been combined with the O-Train, but I don't see added much added benefit from that (e.g., Carleton U is not a major destination for Quebeckers). 15-minute headways would have provided some benefit, but not much.

Ridership-wise, I don't see how the results would have been much different. For the vast majority of riders wanting to go to major destinations like downtown Ottawa or downtown Hull, using that line would have required 2-transfer trips.

[d_jeffrey]

The option had 11 stations on the Quebec-side and terminated at Bayview (where the vast majority of riders would transfer to the Transitway). The headways were 20 minutes. So operationally speaking, it does not look very different from the O-Train. I guess it could have been combined with the O-Train, but I don't see added much added benefit from that (e.g., Carleton U is not a major destination for Quebeckers). 15-minute headways would have provided some benefit, but not much.

Ridership-wise, I don't see how the results would have been much different. For the vast majority of riders wanting to go to major destinations like downtown Ottawa or downtown Hull, using that line would have required 2-transfer trips.

It does, because the O-Train could have gone to Terrasses des Chaudières, the tracks are even there.

The headways were 20 minutes at peak times, plus you can not achieve profitability easily with heavy rail. Hence why people that take the VIA train thinking they are doing a good thing for the environment are wrong.

This is the same result that was stated at the BAPE, where a new rail line pollutes more than the cars it replaces, at a higer cost.

[Suzie]

It does, because the O-Train could have gone to Terrasses des Chaudières, the tracks are even there.

I’m not sure how this would work. Would an O-Train come down from Gatineau and, just before reaching the POW Bridge take a side-trip to a station at the Terrasses des Chaudières to drop off some passengers? This station would be on the wrong side of Taché (i.e., the south side). After that, I assume that the train would double-back and take the POW Bridge to go south to Bayview (and perhaps all the way to Greenboro). At Bayview, most of the remaining riders would get off and have to transfer for a second time to crowded Transitway buses or, eventually, crowded trains on a metro system.

For Ottawa-bound passengers from Gatineau, I can’t see such a service being attractive. Probably the only Gatineau people who would consider using it would be those wanting to go to Tunney’s or points to the West along the Transitway. I can see off-peak usage levels being particularly low. I’m assuming of course that STO buses would continue to serve downtown Ottawa.

For Gatineau-bound passengers from Ottawa, it would be a similar story. The service would be good for people who live in the South and work at the Terrasses des Chaudières. I don’t think there are many of those. Maybe those who live in the West End and work at the Terrasses des Chaudière would also consider using it, even though the service would be, in many respects, worse than what is available today, mainly due to the poor location of the station at the Terrasses des Chaudière and the low frequency.

The headways were 20 minutes at peak times, plus you can not achieve profitability easily with heavy rail. Hence why people that take the VIA train thinking they are doing a good thing for the environment are wrong.

On that we agree.

[d_jeffrey]

For Gatineau-bound passengers from Ottawa, it would be a similar story. The service would be good for people who live in the South and work at the Terrasses des Chaudières. I don’t think there are many of those. Maybe those who live in the West End and work at the Terrasses des Chaudière would also consider using it, even though the service would be, in many respects, worse than what is available today, mainly due to the poor location of the station at the Terrasses des Chaudière and the low frequency.


For sure, it is still an idea, you can always bonify the project to get the results you want, same thing as a DT transfer station not at Bayview. I always found it odd to have at terminal there since it could be much closer to downtown. Either way, I'd rather see a line from Bayview to the Rideau centre heading to Québec first.

[rakerman]

I would love this, but they could never redo what it used to be like as the old marshalling yard is now street + the new convention centre.

http://qshare.queensu.ca/Users01/gordond/planningcanadascapital/greber1950/Illustrations/300/205%20progress%20of%20planned%20development.jpg

Even to squeeze in a couple trains I don't know how they could do it unless they came in underground. They still have the space underneath Chateau Laurier, which was then all carefully climate controlled for the photography museum, all of which work is now moot since they closed the photo museum and will use the space for Yet More Government Meetings and offices or something.

[Kitchissippi]

:previous: Neat to see a picture of Union Station when it still had a dome. If they ever renovate it and turn it into a public space, it would be cool if they put a glass dome on it like they did on the German Reichstag (http://english.dac.dk/db/filarkiv/11931/reichstag2_Reinhard_Gorner_RGB.jpg)

[Dado]

It would be easier to dismantle and move the station building than it would be to get trains to it now.

[eternallyme]

I previously mentioned it, but I think what should be done is to turn over what is now the Transitway for VIA and commuter rail. (That requires a change in the LRT line to keep it separate from the current Transitway at least to Hurdman)

Unfortunately, a tunnel underneath the DND building would be extremely difficult.

[adam-machiavelli]

I noticed new gravel and concrete blocks laid along the track that runs past Fallowfield station. Is VIA Rail adding a second track, a passing track, or a temporary track that will be used while it replaces the current track?

[Uhuniau]

But don't worry: I'm sure if someone came up with a proposal for a high speed intercity bus (HSIB) on a dedicated road (busway), we'd be there in a flash. :tup:

Please delete or edit that posting before — you know who — read it and get ideas.

[Uhuniau]

You can't have a big city with a small town attitude forever.

Ottawa is prima facie evidence that you can!

[Uhuniau]

(e.g., Carleton U is not a major destination for Quebeckers).

Yet.

Had the O-Train been extended to Hull, as it could have been, oh, pretty well from the start, you would have already seen a good number of Carleton students renting on the Quebec side.

A lot of students are getting squeezed out of the traditional student ghettos through gentrification and sheer numbers. The number 5 bus is becoming a U of O school bus weekday mornings and evenings, as more and more students start finding cheaper digs further east.

[Ottawan]

Yet.

Had the O-Train been extended to Hull, as it could have been, oh, pretty well from the start, you would have already seen a good number of Carleton students renting on the Quebec side.

A lot of students are getting squeezed out of the traditional student ghettos through gentrification and sheer numbers. The number 5 bus is becoming a U of O school bus weekday mornings and evenings, as more and more students start finding cheaper digs further east.

It's true that the O-Train is incredibly convenient for Carleton students, and has led to interesting perversions of behaviour. For example, instead of shopping at Billings Bridge, Carleton students (at least those 1000s in residence) now prefer to get their errands done at South Keys. Carleton is really isolated, but the O-Train provides such a quick connection that it feels less so to those communities that are near it.

Anyway, all this is to say that it's another strong argument for a Gladstone transit station. Right now, Carleton students are far from any decent nightlife. I guarantee that if there were a Gladstone O-Train stop, they would flood in and out of Preston street every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night, helping to support a true new nightlife destination.

[Uhuniau]

It's true that the O-Train is incredibly convenient for Carleton students, and has led to interesting perversions of behaviour.

I prefer to think of them as "modifications"! :)

Carleton is really isolated, but the O-Train provides such a quick connection that it feels less so to those communities that are near it.

It still is isolated, in some degree, for cars and even buses, but boy, it sure doesn't feel isolated when it takes just six minutes to get there from in sight of the Ottawa River. My mental map of Carleton's place in the city has completely changed. (Too bad the university with the architecture school can't put up more physical maps of Carleton to help navigate the campus once you actually get there.)

Anyway, all this is to say that it's another strong argument for a Gladstone transit station.

Oh hells yeah.

Right now, Carleton students are far from any decent nightlife. I guarantee that if there were a Gladstone O-Train stop, they would flood in and out of Preston street every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night, helping to support a true new nightlife destination.

Not just Carleton students, either.

[madsad]

I vaguely recall coming across such a proposal for the Calgary to Edmonton corridor. I don’t know how serious it was. Probably wasn't. If I remember correctly, a dedicated corridor would have allowed inter-city buses to travel at a higher speed (up to 160km/hr?).

I think I found what you are referring to, although it is in the US, not in Alberta: Link to video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzlqNp8R90A)