[miketoronto]

Well it looks like Macy's had decided to not fully support it's downtown stores and is starting downtown downsizing with the former Famour Barr(now Macy's) store in downtown St. Louis. The store is going to see selling space cut in half from about 400,000 sq feet to about 125,000 sq feet. This is actually smaller than suburban branch locations in the St. Louis region.

There is also rumors that the Chicago State Street store is going to be downsized.

This just shows that department stores in North America have no idea how to operate city stores as downsizing a store to suburban standards takes out any reason to visit the city store.

And contrary to North American retail ideals, large downtown department stores function very well in just about every other country and are not considered obsolete retail landmarks. In fact some stores like ones in Paris have expanded, and London, England has seen stores ready to to close like Harrods regain their former glamour.

Downsizing a store so that it has poor selection is the reason department stores in North America are suffering.

This move by Macy's puts the downtown Pittsburgh and downtown Seattle stores in limbo for downsizing, as those stores are the only true large downtown stores left outside of NYC and Chicago.


http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/story/24D39EC7C99260F9862575F40000CD70?OpenDocument

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/building-blocks/commercial-real-estate/2009/07/downtown-macys-store-to-shrink/comment-page-4/

[ardecila]

While I don't disagree with you that Macy's has shown utter disregard for its customers, I don't think this demonstrates something inherently anti-urban about their leadership.

Large downtown stores are tough to operate even in good economic times, let alone 100-year recessions. Why do you think so many of them closed, even during stable times in the 50s and 60s? You can't honestly tell me that every single one of them was led by hardcore, city-fearing suburbanites.

I don't know about those European stores, but I will say that London and Paris compared to St. Louis is apples to oranges. Large, super-concentrated stores make sense in hyper-dense, transit-rich cities like those in Europe, but not in places like St. Louis where only office workers and tourists are downtown.

Perhaps the foreign stores have switched to a different business model? I know that Macy's here on State Street in Chicago has brought in boutique businesses like Sarah's Bakery, Australian Ice Cream, Lush, and FAO Schwarz to operate sections within the store, turning Macy's into somewhat of a mall landlord rather than a retailer. The majority of the store remains filled with Macy's merchandise, but the rent from the tenants helps to subsidize the rest of the store.

I confess that I have contributed to Macy's decline in Chicago by using the store's restrooms, trying on clothes then buying them online, and other things that impact the store without them receiving a cent of my money. I do this not because I want the store to close, but because I still feel slighted by Macy's management and I hate the way they stomped on 100 years of Chicago history when they eliminated the Marshall Field's name.

[Cambridgite]

Are you sure this has to do with the downtowns dying off and not to do with the economic collapse? Mike, if you haven't noticed, there are a lot more "for lease" signs in downtown Toronto this year than there were only a couple of years ago.

[theWatusi]

:no:

http://frederatorblogs.com/channel_frederator/files/2009/06/beating_a_dead_horse1.gif

Source (http://frederatorblogs.com/channel_frederator/2009/06/09/pixar-the-house-of-sequels/)

[Gordo]

This move by Macy's puts the downtown Pittsburgh and downtown Seattle stores in limbo for downsizing, as those stores are the only true large downtown stores left outside of NYC and Chicago.

Not sure where you're getting this info from. The downtown SF store was Macy's second largest store for decades and may still be (it's certainly larger than the Seattle and Pittsburgh stores). I'm not sure if the State Street store in Chicago is larger, but the retail footprint in the SF store has not changed (the administrative areas were downsized with the closing of the Macy's West administrative offices) since the expansion and remodeling in the late 90's.

There are also five other major downtown department stores in SF (Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus, Saks, Barneys, and Bloomingdales), two of which are new within the past two years (Barneys and Bloomingdales).

[miketoronto]

Sorry I forgot about Macy's in SF. The Neiman Marcus, Saks, Barneys, and Bloomingdales in SF are no larger than suburban branch stores. Those stores don't really have large downtown stores except for in Manhattan.

Cambridgite, stores have faced recessions before. You do not downsize a store that has operated for 100 years due to a recession that is not going to last. If that was the case, these stores would have downsized ages ago.

I am just saying that this just shows that managment in these nation wide chains have forgotten how to operate for the most part, flagship downtown store, and are instead turning them into nothing but a suburban branch store. And that is probably why their sales suffer, because why go to a department store if it is not going to have a large selection of items?

It is not just Europe that still supports large downtown store. Australia which is much more culturally like the U.S.A. has seen major investment in their downtown department stores. Not only has David Jones just redid stores in their major cities, but Myer is building an expansion to their Melbourne store which will make it even more of a destination.

Treating a downtown store like the suburbs is what is killing these stores.

[pip]

Oh wow, dream come true, Macy's on State Street is downsizing according to rumor posted here. Hopefully they downsize completely. But I have used the restroom before, too bad that would be gone.

[pottebaum]

There is also rumors that the Chicago State Street store is going to be downsized.


Where did you hear this?

[theWatusi]

he made it up to support his theory

[Gordo]

Sorry I forgot about Macy's in SF. The Neiman Marcus, Saks, Barneys, and Bloomingdales in SF are no larger than suburban branch stores. Those stores don't really have large downtown stores except for in Manhattan.

Why does that matter? Two of those stores (Bloomingdales and Barneys) did not have a location at ALL in downtown SF prior to opening these two stores. Because they're not larger than the stores that are in some suburbs this is an indication that they don't like downtowns? The draw of a downtown can be large stores OR it can simply be number of stores OR it can be a combination of some large stores and some small stores. I'm drawn to the area to visit numerous stores, not one big one.

As it is now, there aren't any malls in the Bay Area that offer six department stores (regardless of size) as well as the hundreds of smaller stores sandwiched between them like you get downtown (and some of those "smaller" stores are pretty large too). Most department store retailers in the US have either folded or been bought by companies that aren't good at operating ginormous stores downtown because they don't have many. I don't see that as a problem if downtowns can attract numerous smaller stores to replace the giants. Puts fewer eggs in one basket. State Street seems to be adding numerous small stores, as I'm sure Seattle and Pittsburgh could probably do if needed. St. Louis might have a problem filling the hole, but that has to do more with the overall health of the city rather than a hatred of downtown by Macy's.

[JivecitySTL]

he made it up to support his theory

^No, it's true. When the local news in STL reported that the downtown store here will be downsized, they also said Macy's plans to downsize all of its downtown stores within a few years.

This is really no surprise. Unfortunately, most downtowns are no longer the retail hubs they once were. Everything is online these days. In better news, tomorrow downtown St. Louis will welcome its first full-service grocery store in 20 years, so Macy's downsizing is absolutely not a sign of trouble for downtown in general. The whole country is in a bleak retail environment right now.

[Attrill]

I would highly recommend taking some business courses and reading up on the retail sector.

Department stores have been in decline for over 20 years. As early as the late 80's I was working with buyers who left Department stores to work for places like TJ Maxx and Sam's Club. Some of these people had been with places like Filene's and Dillards for years, but even in the 80's they had lost faith in the model. At that time the stores were facing competition from specialized stores - the Gap, Banana Republic, Crate and Barrel, hell - Chess King! The service in the specialized stores was much better and buyers and marketing departments could focus on one area to provide a more informed and thought out product line.

The department stores that survived this time did so by copying sucessful chains and focusing on certain areas - Bloomingdale's on furnishings, Nordstom's on Shoes, Lord and Taylor on apparel, etc... They all had the normal full offerings, but they let some departments atrophy and built up the ones that were working for them. The ones that were determined to do EVERYTHING failed.

Jump forward to the late 90's and online and big box stores start to hack away at Department stores market even more. To be honest, I'm surprised any of them are still around.

It is not about any chain liking or not liking downtowns - it is watching a business model die a slow death.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Fuck you, Cincinnati-based company.

[MNMike]

Mike, as far as other major downtown department stores...the Macy's in Downtown Minneapolis(original flagship Dayton's) is still alive and doing well from what I have heard. They have recently remodeled and added new features to the store including an expanded louis vuitton boutique, and an FAO Schwartz store last year. Its around 500,000 square feet on 6 floors, 3/4 of a block...which I think is considered a fairly large department store? They also have really good food courts in the basement, and up on the 12th floor of the building(floors 6-12 were the old Marshall Fields HQ, besides the restaurants) .

http://204.169.52.42/history/images/pt_daytons.jpg
http://204.169.52.42/history/bi3.asp

[miketoronto]

I disagree Attrill. Walmart when you get down to it is a department store(a discount one). And people are obsessed with "one stop shopping" which department stores offer.

Second, other places have shown these stores do work. Go to European cities, and large downtown stores are still a fixture and going strong in many cities. Some in places like Paris have even expanded their stores in the last couple years. And some have risen from almost going out of business to becoming very famous and popular places again like Selfridges in London.

The difference though? These places did not downsize and limit their offerings. Instead they offer everything including grand food halls, and all different kinds of departments. Something you can't do when your store is only 125,000 sq feet.

And as for telling me to take business classes. I happen to work part-time in a downtown department store, so I do know about these things. In fact the department store company I work for is right now is adding new things to our downtown stores across Canada and making the downtown stores even more special places to shop with additional items not avail in the suburban stores, etc. My only fear is the majority of shares are owned by an American company now and I hope they don't come here with the stupid downsizing talk.

On top of that like I said, Australian cities have seen their downtown department stores redone and made better to.

The company has to take charge and want to make a special environment in the downtown core. Downsizing your stores and turning them into nothing better than a suburban branch store does not help the city retail scene, and for sure will drive more people to the suburbs to shop or to those big box stores, etc.

I was reading a blog actually written by Center City Philly residents. And one of the things they were complaining about was that the Center City Macy's has such a limited selection and that if it offered more like the old department stores did, they would not have to go to the suburbs or big box stores, etc.

Department stores are missing out big on a huge demand that they could fill. But they have their heads stuck in the suburbs.

[Crawford]

Well it looks like Macy's had decided to not fully support it's downtown stores and is starting downtown downsizing with the former Famour Barr(now Macy's) store in downtown St. Louis.

Maybe the store just isn't doing well? :shrug:

St, Louis is a great town, but I am personally amazed they still had a downtown department store. There are basically no other cities in the Midwest (outside of Chicago) with downtown department stores (Minneapolis and Cincy have them, but they are special cases, with subsidized stores and the home of major corporations which maintain stores as a civic gesture).

This just shows that department stores in North America have no idea how to operate city stores as downsizing a store to suburban standards takes out any reason to visit the city store.

Or maybe the North American consumer prefers suburban malls?

And contrary to North American retail ideals, large downtown department stores function very well in just about every other country and are not considered obsolete retail landmarks.

Not in Mexico and most of Latin America. Not in the Middle East.

In Europe, yes. In East Asia, yes.

Downsizing a store so that it has poor selection is the reason department stores in North America are suffering.

I think you are confusing cause and effect.

This move by Macy's puts the downtown Pittsburgh and downtown Seattle stores in limbo for downsizing, as those stores are the only true large downtown stores left outside of NYC and Chicago.

Um, San Francisco? San Francisco has arguably the most impressive array of department stores outside of NYC. Chicago, as mentioned, is also quite impressive.

Boston has a few decent-sized downtown stores, and there's one each in Philly and DC. Portland has downtown department stores, though they aren't huge. Even if it loses Macys, downtown Seattle has Nordstrom.

Then there are many citylike suburbs themselves with many traditional street-level department stores. Places like Beverly Hills, CA and White Plains, NY.

[MNMike]

PS...Mike, are you not talking about Canada too? Surely you are aware that Canada is part of "North America" which is what you said in your original post, but then you went on to say that Canadian stores are different. Also, I just posted how the Macy's downtown Minneapolis is adding things that make it more "special"( as you said) than the suburban stores, and you ignored my post...I guess because it doesn't support your theory? I actually went to the downtown Macy's after visiting a suburban store, becuase the DT store has a bigger selection. They also have things like the annual flower show, and holiday show that set it apart from the suburban stores and draw huge crowds. Even with that said, I still wouldn't be surprised to see it downsized, along with a lot of large department stores...to improve margins...though lately we have seen nothing but improvements.

[urbanactivistTX]

I'd be surprised if the ten-story Macy's in downtown Houston (which was the flagship Foley's until 2006) downsized very much. It's the last major department store left in downtown. From what I can tell, business at this store has been on the increase too.

[miketoronto]

PS...Mike, are you not talking about Canada too? Surely you are aware that Canada is part of "North America" which is what you said in your original post, but then you went on to say that Canadian stores are different. Also, I just posted how the Macy's downtown Minneapolis is adding things that make it more "special"( as you said) than the suburban stores, and you ignored my post...I guess because it doesn't support your theory? I actually went to the downtown Macy's after visiting a suburban store, becuase the DT store has a bigger selection. They also have things like the annual flower show, and holiday show that set it apart from the suburban stores and draw huge crowds. Even with that said, I still wouldn't be surprised to see it downsized, along with a lot of large department stores...to improve margins...though lately we have seen nothing but improvements.

Sorry MN. Did not mean to ignor your post. I hope Minneapolis' store continues to do good and does not get caught up in the downsizing. As for Canada we have to watch out as HBC is now owned by American's. Lets hope they don't pull the downsizing idea on this side of the border.
According to suppliers I have chatted with, the downtown department stores are huge money makers and some of the best sales come from the downtown stores, atleast in the Canadian retail scene.

That being said SEARS came into Canadian downtowns in 2001 and they do not understand like most American companies how to operate downtown stores anymore. They have totally screwed up the old Downtown Eatons store in Toronto, and they downsized the store from something like 9 floors to about 5 or 6 stories now. Instead of a million sq feet it is only probably like half a million sq feet of shopping now. Some of the floors look very cluttered, etc.
One supplier told me she did not understand how SEARS screwed up that location, and how EATONS made so much money at that location, that SEARS should have been pulling in the money. Yet they somehow screwed it up. And I can tell you downsizing does not help. The store is cluttered now and does not have as wide a selection.

[seaskyfan]

The Downtown Seattle one is consistently pretty busy. They tend to keep it up since it's a few blocks from the Nordstrom HQ. That said I wouldn't be surprised to see them shut down a few floors if they simplify their business and get out of furniture, rugs, etc.

[MNMike]

yeah, we will see...I was just giving you a hard time...seems like the thing to do on here. It's just so easy:) ... Again, Joshin'. Now that I read it, my post sounded a little hostile, didn't mean that. Sorry.

Seasky..I was thinking pretty much the same thing. The DT store here has a whole floor of furniture and rugs, I guess I wouldn't be surprised to see that go.

[miketoronto]

yeah, we will see...I was just giving you a hard time...seems like the thing to do on here. Its just so easy:) Again, Joshin'.

Seasky..I was thinking pretty much the same thing. The DT store here has a whole floor of furniture and rugs, I guess I wouldn't be surprised to see that go.


I think that would be a mistake to get rid of the selection of furniture. I love going to the furniture floor of the flagship store in downtown Toronto. It is an entire floor, and they have different themed rooms that show you how you can place the furniture, etc. It is so nice, and I could actually see myself buying something from there. Unlike the suburban store which cram a couple couches with little selection.
I know people who have bought from the flagship store and love how it has a huge selection, etc.
So I think those floors can survive. Again, we have to focus on more than just clothing. And with the renaissance of downtown housing these floors could get good sales. I know HBC here in Toronto has special condo furniture sections in part of the downtown store at certain times.

[MNMike]

If the downtown Eatons was doing so well...why was it sold to sears? Did sears do like Macy's and buy all of the Eatons brand? Not familiar with that situation.

[miketoronto]

If the downtown Eatons was doing so well...why was it sold to sears? Did sears do like Macy's and buy all of the Eatons brand? Not familiar with that situation.

EATONS went out of business as the kids of the founder did not want to continue operating the company and ran it into the ground. But from all accounts the downtown stores still did great business and that is why SEARS bought out the downtown stores but they do not know how to operate them.

Anyone none of us have to agree :) If you guys think department stores are gone and think downsized stores are fine, that is great. But I am going to take the other view that these companies are not manging downtown stores properly and are missing big by downsizing and not keeping these stores going with a great selection, and other unique things.

[MNMike]

If only you were in charge:) haha

[pip]

Sorry MN. Did not mean to ignor your post. I hope Minneapolis' store continues to do good and does not get caught up in the downsizing. As for Canada we have to watch out as HBC is now owned by American's. Lets hope they don't pull the downsizing idea on this side of the border.
According to suppliers I have chatted with, the downtown department stores are huge money makers and some of the best sales come from the downtown stores, atleast in the Canadian retail scene.

That being said SEARS came into Canadian downtowns in 2001 and they do not understand like most American companies how to operate downtown stores anymore. They have totally screwed up the old Downtown Eatons store in Toronto, and they downsized the store from something like 9 floors to about 5 or 6 stories now. Instead of a million sq feet it is only probably like half a million sq feet of shopping now. Some of the floors look very cluttered, etc.
One supplier told me she did not understand how SEARS screwed up that location, and how EATONS made so much money at that location, that SEARS should have been pulling in the money. Yet they somehow screwed it up. And I can tell you downsizing does not help. The store is cluttered now and does not have as wide a selection.

how about this. Canada do your thing and stop looking at America and American companies. Seriously, from your tourists to message boards, what's going on. Develop your own stuff and thrive.

[fflint]

Sorry I forgot about Macy's in SF. The Neiman Marcus, Saks, Barneys, and Bloomingdales in SF are no larger than suburban branch stores. Those stores don't really have large downtown stores except for in Manhattan.
You are wrong. The downtown SF Bloomingdale's is their second-largest store in the nation, with 330,000 sq. ft.

http://www1.bloomingdales.com/about/company/press/detail.ognc?newsID=66

For the love of god, mike, stop making shit up.

[glowrock]

:haha:

That's a classic, Watusi! :)

Aaron (Glowrock)

:no:

http://frederatorblogs.com/channel_frederator/files/2009/06/beating_a_dead_horse1.gif

Source (http://frederatorblogs.com/channel_frederator/2009/06/09/pixar-the-house-of-sequels/)

[glowrock]

I'd be surprised if the ten-story Macy's in downtown Houston (which was the flagship Foley's until 2006) downsized very much. It's the last major department store left in downtown. From what I can tell, business at this store has been on the increase too.

I was going to say, that Macy's on Main St. in Downtown Houston is freaking huge! Of course that is, as you said, because it was the flagship Foley's until Macy's took them over... :)

Never really had a chance to get in there to look around, but is it really 10 stories of shopping? My guess is that there is a lot of office and/or warehouse space on the upper levels...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[breathesgelatin]

And as for telling me to take business classes. I happen to work part-time in a downtown department store, so I do know about these things. In fact the department store company I work for is right now is adding new things to our downtown stores across Canada and making the downtown stores even more special places to shop with additional items not avail in the suburban stores, etc. My only fear is the majority of shares are owned by an American company now and I hope they don't come here with the stupid downsizing talk.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Let me guess. You work at one of Macy's major competitors? LOL.

I work for Macy's... I think you're way off. I think that the downtown stores usually have the best stock. I work in a specialty department and have to find items for customers at other store locations frequently. Just doing merchandise searches in my department, I find that the downtown stores are sure to have the best variety of merchandise.

[dave8721]

Macy's has been threatening to leave their almost 100 year old Downtown Miami location as well (former Burdines flagship store before Macys bought them out). They have basically been demanding tax breaks and infrastructure improvements around the store or they shut down the store. Its in large building but much of the space has been used as Macy's FL headquarters offices (until they recently shut that down as well).

[novawolverine]

There are department stores and malls in the suburbs that are going belly-up as well. I wonder what that says about Mike's theory.

[urbanactivistTX]

I was going to say, that Macy's on Main St. in Downtown Houston is freaking huge! Of course that is, as you said, because it was the flagship Foley's until Macy's took them over... :)

Never really had a chance to get in there to look around, but is it really 10 stories of shopping? My guess is that there is a lot of office and/or warehouse space on the upper levels...

Aaron (Glowrock)

If you include the tunnels, it'd technically be eleven stories of shopping.

But then you have to subtract a bit becuase there's like two or three apartments in there as well. No warehouse space... their warehouse store is located just southeast of downtown, and it is hugemongous.

Interesting note here... because of increased activity in downtown, this Macy's location is considering extending their hours.

[Gerrard]

Bloomindale's is the only dept. store, Federated hasn't completely destroyed with its private label crap. However to their credit what Macy's has been trying to do over the past year is localize their dept. stores so that each region is better served by the sort of product it buys.

[miketoronto]

If only you were in charge:) haha

The things I would do if in charge.

1. Transform the Chicago State Street store back into a Marshall Fields store, with the different brands they used to carry, and move Frango chocolate production back to the store. Macy's is missing big by not working with the MF name in Chicago for atleast the State Street store.

2. Expand the Center City Philly store from the current 3 stories to at least 6 stories and create a true full service downtown department store, which Philly lacks since the closing of Strawbridges due to the merger with Macy's. Might even change the name back to Wannamakers.

3. Renovate the downtown Pittsburgh Macy's store, and shut down the Homestead Waterfront store which is only a 10 min drive or less from downtown Pittsburgh. No need for two stores so close to each other and it defeats the purpose of trying to save downtown retail in Pittsburgh.

The downtown stores in all cities would feature in addition to national brand names, a selection of local brands from local designers, etc. In addition departments would be brought back that would cater to downtown residents. No reason we can't have a little hardware section like these stores used to have, etc.

[theWatusi]

you forgot:

4. Bankrupt the stores and force them to go out of business because I imposed an outdated business model on them.

[brickell]

Macy's has been threatening to leave their almost 100 year old Downtown Miami location as well (former Burdines flagship store before Macys bought them out). They have basically been demanding tax breaks and infrastructure improvements around the store or they shut down the store. Its in large building but much of the space has been used as Macy's FL headquarters offices (until they recently shut that down as well).

To be fair, the downtown store stopped being the flagship long ago. I'm guessing that the Miami Beach store took over when that was built. If anything the Dadeland store took over as Burdines flagship when it was built, if nto sharing the title with the Aventura store. I give them credit for leaving it open as long as they have. The area really does need some work.

[WhipperSnapper]

you forgot:

4. Bankrupt the stores and force them to go out of business because I imposed an outdated business model on them.



and

5. EXPRESS buses

[WhipperSnapper]

The things I would do if in charge.



I know a good shrink

[miketoronto]

I really don't understand why you guys get upset when people put out ideas.
If you have no interest in these old stores than fine. If you don't shop at them, fine. You don't have to knock someone down for coming up with ideas to put some life back into landmarks that no matter if you like it or not do have a place in a downtown and contribute to the retail health of the city.

There is no reason this scene can not be had in more American cities.

Selfridges Birmingham City Centre.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/68064493_7368566e9d_o.jpg
Photo thanks to ßlϋeωãvε on flickr

And it should be noted that a North American(a business women from Toronto) bought out Selfridges and brought it back to glory. Maybe she needs to to buy MACY'S.

[sopas ej]

I would highly recommend taking some business courses and reading up on the retail sector.

Department stores have been in decline for over 20 years. As early as the late 80's I was working with buyers who left Department stores to work for places like TJ Maxx and Sam's Club. Some of these people had been with places like Filene's and Dillards for years, but even in the 80's they had lost faith in the model. At that time the stores were facing competition from specialized stores - the Gap, Banana Republic, Crate and Barrel, hell - Chess King! The service in the specialized stores was much better and buyers and marketing departments could focus on one area to provide a more informed and thought out product line.

The department stores that survived this time did so by copying sucessful chains and focusing on certain areas - Bloomingdale's on furnishings, Nordstom's on Shoes, Lord and Taylor on apparel, etc... They all had the normal full offerings, but they let some departments atrophy and built up the ones that were working for them. The ones that were determined to do EVERYTHING failed.

Jump forward to the late 90's and online and big box stores start to hack away at Department stores market even more. To be honest, I'm surprised any of them are still around.

It is not about any chain liking or not liking downtowns - it is watching a business model die a slow death.

Haha Chess King! I forgot about that store, how 80s is that? I never shopped there, though, their clothes were so... low-rider mini-truck and guys with Mexi-mullets!

Didn't Nordstrom start out as a shoe store originally?

And I agree with you, department stores have been dying a long, slow death. Retail just evolves. Back in their heyday of the late 1800s-early 1900s, large downtown department stores were the shopping malls of their time, one-stop shopping all under one roof. You used to be able to get EVERYTHING at a department store back then, even food and toys. Customer loyalty really meant something back then... "I do ALL my shopping at 'Fill-in-the-Blank's'." Gradually, department stores basically just became clothing and home furnishing stores, except of course Sears which still has hardware and home appliances.

And I think it's sad that the internet has even killed the erotica store/porn store.

[Attrill]

And I think it's sad that the internet has even killed the erotica store/porn store.

Not to mention headshops and Spencer Gifts!

[miketoronto]

The internet shopping effect is way overblown, as internet shopping actually is a very very small % of retail sales, as most people still like to touch things before buying them.

Also if the department store was dead than Walmart and Target would be dead, as they really are just discount department stores.
And maybe the fact that American department stores do not carry everything like they used to is part of their downfall.
Go to a department store in Europe, or in Australia, etc and they do carry everything including food.

It is the suburban branch store and the idea of having tiny stores with little selection that has probably killed off department stores in N.A. more than anything else.

Anyway you don't have to agree with me, but I do feel there is a place for these stores in our nations downtowns. But reducing them to nothing but a suburban branch store with limited selection is not the answer to bringing these places back.

[tdawg]

Sorry I forgot about Macy's in SF. The Neiman Marcus, Saks, Barneys, and Bloomingdales in SF are no larger than suburban branch stores. Those stores don't really have large downtown stores except for in Manhattan.

Mike, we don't have a Neiman Marcus. Dallas (it's HQ) has a large downtown NM. On a side note, I was walking by Bloomingdale's yesterday (which I do every day to get to work/go home) and I wonder why the exterior has never been remodeled to look grander, a la Harrod's, KaDeWe or the Galeries Lafayette? Sure, the quality of the goods inside is top notch but the building is a behemoth slab from the outside.

For example, here's Berlin's KaDeWe
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Berlin_kadewe.jpg

Galeries Lafayette
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/00/dc/6e/the-galleries-lafayette.jpg

Bloomingdale's (and this its good side)
http://www.nyc-architecture.com/UES/018-Bloomingdales2.jpg

[sopas ej]

The internet shopping effect is way overblown, as internet shopping actually is a very very small % of retail sales, as most people still like to touch things before buying them.

Also if the department store was dead than Walmart and Target would be dead, as they really are just discount department stores.
And maybe the fact that American department stores do not carry everything like they used to is part of their downfall.
Go to a department store in Europe, or in Australia, etc and they do carry everything including food.

It is the suburban branch store and the idea of having tiny stores with little selection that has probably killed off department stores in N.A. more than anything else.

Anyway you don't have to agree with me, but I do feel there is a place for these stores in our nations downtowns. But reducing them to nothing but a suburban branch store with limited selection is not the answer to bringing these places back.

I guess places like Walmart and Target could be considered department stores, but I still don't consider them to be department stores in the traditional sense. To me those are just discount stores, basically large drugstores. It's funny, too, because growing up, the only discount store was Kmart, and as a teen I would never be caught dead in a Kmart, it seemed like only a certain demographic went there. But now, I have no problem being in a Target, I go there often for my toiletries because they're so cheap there. But that's all I use Target for, I don't buy my clothes there.

But going back to department stores, again, retail has just evolved. What's considered convenient for shoppers has also changed. Many people go to Best Buy for their electronics and computers. Many people shop at membership places like Costco. And as someone mentioned before, many people like to go to specialized smaller stores, like Banana Republic and Pottery Barn and Restoration Hardware.

[urbanactivistTX]

I guess places like Walmart and Target could be considered department stores, but I still don't consider them to be department stores in the traditional sense. To me those are just discount stores, basically large drugstores. It's funny, too, because growing up, the only discount store was Kmart, and as a teen I would never be caught dead in a Kmart, it seemed like only a certain demographic went there. But now, I have no problem being in a Target, I go there often for my toiletries because they're so cheap there. But that's all I use Target for, I don't buy my clothes there.

But going back to department stores, again, retail has just evolved. What's considered convenient for shoppers has also changed. Many people go to Best Buy for their electronics and computers. Many people shop at membership places like Costco. And as someone mentioned before, many people like to go to specialized smaller stores, like Banana Republic and Pottery Barn and Restoration Hardware.

You can call me a "price addict". In Houston, most of our high-end shopping is in the Galleria... there's not really anything like that in Downtown unless you consider BCBG and Forever XXI to be high-end. I for one detest the Galleria and hardly ever go there unless I'm roped into it by someone else. I'd much sooner go to a big box. I shop at Macy's downtown all the time just b/c it's a hugemongous store and always has surplus of items that the suburban stores have already ran out of. It's mostly inner loopers, downtown workers and the transit-friendly people that go there. But I only buy gifts, trinkets and house stuff at Macy's... never clothes.

[VivaLFuego]

and

5. EXPRESS buses

LOL :haha:

Sorry Mike, I do appreciate you starting up conversations and throwing out ideas... but I actually laughed out loud (which I almost never do) at Sacamano's #5.

[PhillyRising]

Well...Macy's should think about upgrading it's Flagship store in New York first. The store was rather shabby looking to me and my partner who actually works for Macys. In fact, the Philadelphia store is in much better shape even if it's vastly smaller.

I don't think the Philadelphia store needs to get bigger. If we needed a bigger store with all the amenities...Wanamakers and Strawbridges would still be open for business. The condition of the Stawbridges main store was a disgrace in the way the May Company ran it into the ground after they took it over from the Strawbridge family.

If Macy's wanted to open a store that appealed to very high end customers with high customer service in Center City...they would be better off opening a smaller store on Walnut or Chestnut street that competed with Boyd's.

I don't even think most city residents trek into Center City to shop at the Market St store. The people up in Chestnut Hill are closer to the Plymouth Meeting and Willow Grove stores. The people in West Philly and along City Line Ave are only a few train stops away from the store at Suburban Square in Ardmore.

The downtown stores are probably suffering because they aren't relevant due to so many stores in any market footprint.

[glowrock]

The internet shopping effect is way overblown, as internet shopping actually is a very very small % of retail sales, as most people still like to touch things before buying them.

Also if the department store was dead than Walmart and Target would be dead, as they really are just discount department stores.
And maybe the fact that American department stores do not carry everything like they used to is part of their downfall.
Go to a department store in Europe, or in Australia, etc and they do carry everything including food.

It is the suburban branch store and the idea of having tiny stores with little selection that has probably killed off department stores in N.A. more than anything else.

Anyway you don't have to agree with me, but I do feel there is a place for these stores in our nations downtowns. But reducing them to nothing but a suburban branch store with limited selection is not the answer to bringing these places back.

Mike, WalMart and Target are certainly not traditional department stores, and neither is K-Mart. They're discount stores, plain and simple. People go there because of price, price, and nothing more than price. It's not for an amazing selection, it's not for high quality, it's for price!

Traditional department stores (Macy's, Dillards, etc...) didn't rely on the budget consumer as much. High-end stores (Nordstrom, Bloomingdale's, etc...) didn't give a damn about budgets since their products are very expensive in general). Along with the internet, budget consumers pretty much rule retail. This is the downfall of the elaborate downtown department store, at least in the U.S., save for NYC, San Fran, and Chicago...

Look, as other have already said, I appreciate you bringing ideas to the SSP table. Unfortunately, so many of your ideas have been rehashed hundreds of times in the last few years on the forum that we're just getting tired of beating that dead horse another couple of hundred times!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Crawford]

Mike, we don't have a Neiman Marcus.

Manhattan doesn't have a Neiman Marcus because of Bergdorf Goodman.

When NM bought BG, it was agreed that NM could not open within X miles of BG territory. Until this is changed, they cannot open NM in Manhattan (though there are plenty in nearby suburbs). The closest NM to Manhattan is just outside the exclusion zone, a few miles west in Riverside Square (NJ).

Dallas (it's HQ) has a large downtown NM.

Downtown Dallas does have an NM, but it isn't particularly large or busy.

The "main" Dallas NM is at NorthPark Center. It's the biggest and busiest in Texas. NorthPark is the top shopping center in Dallas, and also has the local flagship Macys and Nordstrom.

On a side note, I was walking by Bloomingdale's yesterday (which I do every day to get to work/go home) and I wonder why the exterior has never been remodeled to look grander, a la Harrod's, KaDeWe or the Galeries Lafayette? Sure, the quality of the goods inside is top notch but the building is a behemoth slab from the outside.

The issue with the Bloomingdales site is they can't decide what to do with the site.

The building interior, now that it's mostly renovated, is very nice, and can probably compare with almost any department store anywhere.

At the same time, there have been various plans to rebuild the entire site, and so the exterior (especially the 3rd Avenue side) has a weird, cobbled-together look.

BTW, while I prefer the interior of Galeries Lafayette, KaDeWe does not really have an impressive interior.

[Crawford]

The things I would do if in charge.

1. Transform the Chicago State Street store back into a Marshall Fields store, with the different brands they used to carry, and move Frango chocolate production back to the store. Macy's is missing big by not working with the MF name in Chicago for atleast the State Street store.

MF was a money-loser as a chain, and why would Macys give one of its hundreds of stores a different name? Talk about consumer confusion.

You can't just give one store "different brands". Macys buys in giant bulk and has vast logistics repetition. Completely defeats the business model.

A manufacturing use (chocolate production) is not a cost-efficient use in a department store, especially in the middle of the Loop

2. Expand the Center City Philly store from the current 3 stories to at least 6 stories and create a true full service downtown department store, which Philly lacks since the closing of Strawbridges due to the merger with Macy's. Might even change the name back to Wannamakers.

The Center City store originally was much larger. It was downsized due to decreased sales.

3. Renovate the downtown Pittsburgh Macy's store, and shut down the Homestead Waterfront store which is only a 10 min drive or less from downtown Pittsburgh. No need for two stores so close to each other and it defeats the purpose of trying to save downtown retail in Pittsburgh.

Macys is in the business of making money. They are not in the business of "trying to save downtown retail in Pittsburgh".

[Attrill]

Also if the department store was dead than Walmart and Target would be dead, as they really are just discount department stores.
And maybe the fact that American department stores do not carry everything like they used to is part of their downfall.
Go to a department store in Europe, or in Australia, etc and they do carry everything including food.



So you'd be fine with Macy's on State St. in Chicago becoming a Walmart? Eaton's becoming a Target? That doesn't sound like what you're talking about.

What it sounds like you're talking about is the traditional definition of Department Store - which means they have: Departments (duh), each with their own trained staff, and their own registers. Once the checkouts are all at the front of the store and the staff shares an ignorance of all the things they sell, it is no longer a Department Store, discount or otherwise. In previous posts you seem to be VERY aware of how Department Store is defined - Expensive Walmarts...Really? That's what you mean by Department Store?

[PhillyRising]

The issue with the Bloomingdales site is they can't decide what to do with the site.

The building interior, now that it's mostly renovated, is very nice, and can probably compare with almost any department store anywhere.


The Manhattan Bloomies is very nice inside. It's like they have small boutiques within the main store. It was under renovation a few weeks ago.

The male sales help is very hot too! :yes: :banana:

[AaronPGH]

I'd actually shop in the downtown Pittsburgh store if they carried any clothing of worth. I've attempted to find stuff there on numerous occasions, and it's all a bunch of shit. I always leave empty-handed. They're catering to ghetto crowds and older crowds, not the young professionals with office jobs and the large university population down there that they should be catering to. I realize that's only one or two departments in the whole store, but it's one they could be turning a much larger profit on.

With South Side Works right down the river having an H&M, Urban, local boutiques...the younger set is bypassing Macy's completely here and it's their own fault. If these large department stores keep trying to cling to demographics that are fading instead of breathing fresh (younger) life into them, they will eventually wither and die. Younger generations don't look upon department stores as desirable places to shop like the older set that grew up going to them does. It's a huge marketing error on their part.

[breathesgelatin]

Bloomindale's is the only dept. store, Federated hasn't completely destroyed with its private label crap. However to their credit what Macy's has been trying to do over the past year is localize their dept. stores so that each region is better served by the sort of product it buys.

I wouldn't say all the private label stuff is crap. I guess we could have that argument though. I'll just say that I.N.C. at least sells like crazy, and I work in a high-end shopping center.

For those of you who aren't happy with your Macy's selection, as Gerrard notes, tell your sales associates. We are now tracking customer requests and each store is telling the buyer what its customers need. Now that all the stores have been brought into the Macy's brand, we are allowing the stores to have a lot more self-direction in what they carry.

[The Agonist]

Well it looks like Macy's had decided to not fully support it's downtown stores and is starting downtown downsizing with the former Famour Barr(now Macy's) store in downtown St. Louis. The store is going to see selling space cut in half from about 400,000 sq feet to about 125,000 sq feet. This is actually smaller than suburban branch locations in the St. Louis region.

There is also rumors that the Chicago State Street store is going to be downsized.

This just shows that department stores in North America have no idea how to operate city stores as downsizing a store to suburban standards takes out any reason to visit the city store.

And contrary to North American retail ideals, large downtown department stores function very well in just about every other country and are not considered obsolete retail landmarks. In fact some stores like ones in Paris have expanded, and London, England has seen stores ready to to close like Harrods regain their former glamour.

Downsizing a store so that it has poor selection is the reason department stores in North America are suffering.

This move by Macy's puts the downtown Pittsburgh and downtown Seattle stores in limbo for downsizing, as those stores are the only true large downtown stores left outside of NYC and Chicago.


http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/story/24D39EC7C99260F9862575F40000CD70?OpenDocument

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/building-blocks/commercial-real-estate/2009/07/downtown-macys-store-to-shrink/comment-page-4/

Famous? I never heard of it.

Maybe Macy's is like Bon Ton and downsizing stores because they HATE cities. They hate cities because they hate freedom and they hate us because we are free.