[SABBATICAL!]

Byline: "Its days as Steeltown are finished—but can Hamilton see its future?"
Thoughts on the article?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/hamiltons-dead-or-is-it/article1264739/

[Hammer Native]

I'd say of all the articles written by an out of town writer, probably the one who most has their finger on the pulse. I'm hard pressed to disagree with much here.

[thistleclub]

Trevor's a Hamiltonian, and a lower-city one at that, which is probably invaluable in terms of the background, context and perspective on the issues facing the city. (Unlike, say, Rosie diManno.) And he's a formidable business writer, possibly the best Report on Business has going. He also has a golden batting average with ROB, which probably helps with pitching slightly "square-peg" features like this -- he seems to gravitate to that sort of material and generally turns up something unexpected and fascinating. A thoroughly enjoyable read that hopefully turns some heads.

[FairHamilton]

I'd like to thank him for validating many of my views and statements on this board and elsewhere.

[SteelTown]

Never heard someone suggest to City Hall that Hamitlon "should be gay-friendly".

From my perspective Hamilton has a long way to go if it did.

[flar]

The article hits a lot of the problems with Hamilton. I'm glad the word "parochialism" made it into the article. That about sums up Hamilton's politics and civic "leaders." Though the deadness of Hamilton is a little overdone. Sure, Hamilton looks terrible in comparison to the thriving metrolpolis next door, but it never suffered to the same degree as comparable cities in the US.

[go_leafs_go02]

Good article...enjoyed reading that..can't say I disagree with anything he says within it.

[flar]

He is mistaken with the 57,365 people driving to Toronto for work. According to StatsCan, 6,925 people live in Hamilton and work in Toronto. 57,000 is the total number of Hamiltonians that work outside Hamilton's official city limits. That includes Burlington and other nearby cities like Brantford, St. Catharines and K-W and also far flung places like Montreal, Kingston and Inuvik.

24,000 Hamiltonians total work in the Toronto CMA, most of those in Oakville, then Mississauga.

165,000 work within the Hamilton CMA. Over 140,000 Hamiltonians work in Hamilton, and over 20,000 work in Burlington. If 83% work within Greater Hamilton, any notion that Hamilton is a bedroom community is utterly ridiculous.

[emge]

In Hamilton, the industry limps along, with no end nor glory in sight, while city politicians cling to the idea of manufacturing like a security blanket. Even Mayor Eisenberger still refers to the city’s steel industry as “a very good asset,” although, to an observer, its economic benefits no longer offset its vast, ugly footprint.

Yeah, that's about it.

[hamtransithistory]

Couple of nitpicks about this paragraph

"Even the province has had trouble in this town. In the late 1970s, the Bill Davis government wanted to give Hamilton a light rail transit system that would link its downtown and waterfront to the airport. The government saw it as a chance to test-market something it wanted to sell worldwide. But Hamilton was sure that if the province wanted to give it something like that, there must be something wrong with it. So it said no to a freebie that would have transformed the city. Needing a place to show off its system, the province wound up selling it to British Columbia for Expo 86. In Vancouver, they called it the SkyTrain."

1) There was a demo version of this line already, its called the Scarborough RT
2) Although it may have eventually been expanded so that it was 'waterfront to the airport', back then it was more 'Downtown to Limeridge'
3) I've seen the final designs, and its good that it wasn't built. It turned out that the RT cars required a wider turning radius than was originally claimed, so had the line been built there would have been trouble with the downtown loop. We probably would have had to rebuild the line twice; once in the mid 80s to deal with the problems when they were originally discovered, and again about now because the original cars would be wearing out and the replacements require even larger curve radii.

But other than this paragraph, I think the article is spot on.

[flar]

In Hamilton, the industry limps along, with no end nor glory in sight, while city politicians cling to the idea of manufacturing like a security blanket. Even Mayor Eisenberger still refers to the city’s steel industry as “a very good asset,” although, to an observer, its economic benefits no longer offset its vast, ugly footprint.

Yeah, that's about it.

I disagree with that, if you took away Stelco and Dofasco, you take away tens of thousands of good paying jobs. Several thousand people still work directly at those plants, many more work in related construction and contract work, many more work at the dozens of other factories that depend on the steel plants.

It's not just the jobs, it's the municipal taxes that those businesses pay. The city can't afford to lose them, and they do make up a significant part of the economy.

[realcity]

If Dofasco and Stelco were to totally close down that land would be a brownfield for about 100 years. We can't even do anything with the brownfields we have now. Imagine the blight if it had zero activity? At least now people see from the Skyway that it's operating.

[realcity]

Great article. good insight thistleclub.

[emge]

I disagree with that, if you took away Stelco and Dofasco, you take away tens of thousands of good paying jobs. Several thousand people still work directly at those plants, many more work in related construction and contract work, many more work at the dozens of other factories that depend on the steel plants.

It's not just the jobs, it's the municipal taxes that those businesses pay. The city can't afford to lose them, and they do make up a significant part of the economy.

My selective quoting implied it, but I'm not necessarily saying that the industry should die.... but I do want to see it either improve greatly or die.

What the article said is precisely true: it's limping along with no "end or glory" in sight. Sure, we get some benefit from it, but it's hampering us not only from the greater good those lands may be used for (and I don't think it would take 100 years once the hammer fell) but from a greater problem with how this city sees itself. I like the Pittsburgh example because the city faced a "change or die" ultimatum with steel leaving.

Whoops, we lost those taxes - now what? Whoops, those jobs are gone for good - now what? All those "now what" questions are never asked here, because we've been dying away little by little instead.

We have a "change, or um, well, keep sort of chugging along at a tiny fraction of what we used to be, which is better than taking a risk of things ever improving, I guess, or cutting things out entirely" mentality here.

and still, "to the observer" they're just a big ol' blight.

So if the companies end up doing better and we strategically take advantage of our location and we once again become a city of steel and perhaps put on real strict environmental controls and the right kind of buffer zones between industry and residential with commercial. great...

but if we keep puttering along with a few thousand folks employed and paying some taxes and hold back the entire city... I'm not convinced it's worth the price.

But it is still just one piece of a very big puzzle in this great city.

[bigguy1231]

Excellent article. He hits the nail on the head.

Hopefully, most city councillors will read it. It's a good assessment of the problems we have in this city.

[bigguy1231]

1) There was a demo version of this line already, its called the Scarborough RT
2) Although it may have eventually been expanded so that it was 'waterfront to the airport', back then it was more 'Downtown to Limeridge'


I am not sure, but I if I remember correctly, the rapid transit proposal predated the Scarborough RT by a few years. I sort of remember when that was built and it seems to me that it was after Hamilton turned it down. The main reason for turning it down was financial. The city didn't want to be responsible for the operating costs for what they believed would be a white elephant.

The reason the line ended at Limeridge was because there was nothing beyond that point. It was mostly farmland with a few commercial properties on Upper James. For the most part expansion of the urban area South of Limeridge did not begin until the 80's after Limeridge Mall was built. The only reason I remember that is because in the late 70's I used to drive to Southmount High school, now St Jean de Brebeuf, for grade 13. I used to drive across Stonechurch from Upper James and it was all farms. There were a few small enclaves around Upper James and on the West mountain but it was mainly agricultural land.

[FairHamilton]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-magazine/what-will-save-hamilton/article1270594/

[FairHamilton]

Question from Lance in Hamilton

I agree. What types of incentives is the city of Hamilton putting out there for businesses to consider Hamilton a worthy place to set up shop?

Answer from Trevor Cole

Hamilton offers $20 million loans for developers willing to build residential buildings downtown. It offers tax breaks for companies willing to pay the costs of reclaiming brownfield land. In certain cases it will waive development charges for businesses willing to locate here. Even Hamilton’s city staff aren’t always aware of all the incentives they offer. In researching this story I was directed to ask Tim McCabe, head of planning and economic development for the details of the programs. Tim McCabe told me “Don’t ask me the details.”

Nuff said!!!

[flar]

I bet that's not what the director of ec dev says in Burlington...

[realcity]

Tim 'drive thru' McCabe

http://rlv.zcache.com/kitchener_ontario_tshirt-p235898332882943501uhml_400.jpg

[rousseau]

Even the province has had trouble in this town. In the late 1970s, the Bill Davis government wanted to give Hamilton a light rail transit system that would link its downtown and waterfront to the airport. The government saw it as a chance to test-market something it wanted to sell worldwide. But Hamilton was sure that if the province wanted to give it something like that, there must be something wrong with it. So it said no to a freebie that would have transformed the city. Needing a place to show off its system, the province wound up selling it to British Columbia for Expo 86. In Vancouver, they called it the SkyTrain.
Holy fuck.

[jgrwatson]

Wow - that is a great article.

It really hits the nail on the head in terms of what Hamilton projects . . . I especially agree with the notion that politicans live in the suburbs, come downtown for a few hours, and hightail it back out.

In fact. The AGH is having their Internation Film Festival this year and the coordinator commented at the last meeting that "people are coming downtown who have never been downtown" and the AGH is going all out to accomodate and make people comfortable. I hope it works!

[FairHamilton]

Holy fuck.

They are a great band.

In all seriousness, it would have left us fuming at the piece of junk we were 'given'. A system okay for serving suburbs (Scarobough LRT), but ill suited for serving Hamilton downtown.

The fact they couldn't sell any worldwide much beyond Scarborough, Vancouver & Detroit should say all that needs to be said.

[thistleclub]

Holy fuck.

I'm not up to speed on the history of it, but Wikipedia suggests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_Line#ICTS_demonstration_project) that the test system Vancouver got was a 1km, single-station run, or about a quarter of the Expo 86 track; it was the Expo dollars that enabled its extension, I would imagine. (That line is far larger than that now, of course.) Take away the Expo funding and it's entirely possible that Hamilton would have no more than that initial stretch of of aging elevated rail lashed around its core today, almost 30 years later.

[FairHamilton]

I'm not up to speed on the history of it, but Wikipedia suggests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_Line#ICTS_demonstration_project) that the test system Vancouver got was a 1km, single-station run, or about a quarter of the Expo 86 track; it was the Expo dollars that enabled its extension, I would imagine. (That line is far larger than that now, of course.) Take away the Expo funding and it's entirely possible that Hamilton would have no more than that initial stretch of of aging elevated rail lashed around its core today, almost 30 years later.

I was around for this, and lived through the issues with Scarborough's LRT and it wasn't pretty. The UTDC was essentially a white elephant with troublesome, poor, and unwanted products.

Another important point, is the rolling stock from that period is now obsolete, so new lines need to be run with different rolling stock that needs different equipment. This results in rolling stock that can not be used system wide, and increased costs for all kinds of other reasons (i.e. repair & maintenance). Think about how long Toronto's streetcar rails have been in the ground and that new rolling stock will fit, just like the rolling stock of 50, 60 years ago.

[matt602]

I definitely think we dodged a bullet on the RT system, especially having experienced the Scarborough RT every day for a few years. A horribly un-urban design with tons of flaws. It has and still will cost the city of Toronto for many years to come.

[go_leafs_go02]

Well the Skytrain in Vancouver is one heck of a success!

[realcity]

^ exactly

Hamilton would've been better off with a less-then-stellar RT line then no RT line. Just curious... was this under mayor moron Jack MacDonald's watch?

[bigguy1231]

^ exactly

Hamilton would've been better off with a less-then-stellar RT line then no RT line. Just curious... was this under mayor moron Jack MacDonald's watch?

Yep, Jack was a great proponent of the system. It would have been built if he had his way.

[Jon Dalton]

I'm just going to regurgitate what I posted on another, less serious website where this article came up: I'll have to give this a better read when more sober/alert but having skimmed it, it seems to give a more thorough rundown of our state of affairs than the last several TO articles on Hamilton. However the big issues, it kind of scratches on then runs away from. Healthcare and education as our biggest industries, and that's not a problem? Poverty? Maybe it's just too much of a white elephant but I'm more convinced than ever that the demographics of our core shape the image and prosperity of the entire city, in recent history for the worse. How do we change those demographics? I see the influx of middle class Torontonians, especially knowing some of them personally, our best potential for salvation. Think of it as an influx of money combined with urban values. Those two in combination are what Hamilton has been lacking for the last 60 years.

[Jon Dalton]

They are a great band.

In all seriousness, it would have left us fuming at the piece of junk we were 'given'. A system okay for serving suburbs (Scarobough LRT), but ill suited for serving Hamilton downtown.

The fact they couldn't sell any worldwide much beyond Scarborough, Vancouver & Detroit should say all that needs to be said.

I often struggle with the question of whether we would be better off having accepted the proposed elevated transit of the early 80's. It certainly adds nothing to the street level aesthetic of the corridor it passes through. I've seen streets in Paris, the worldwide mecca of street life, where the metro runs elevated, that are absolutlely sketchy. Elevated transit removes passenger traffic from the street. In Vancouver BC the SkyTrain has largely avoided vibrant commercial streets in its alignment. The new line is underground except for the outer suburban portion. If the proposed Hamilton rapid transit had bypassed streets like James South, I feel that it would have been a net benefit. However the era of elevated rail as a preferred alignment is clearly over and cities from big to small have come full circle to street level transit, and this is the best time for Hamilton to get with the program.

[flar]

I'm just going to regurgitate what I posted on another, less serious website where this article came up: I'll have to give this a better read when more sober/alert but having skimmed it, it seems to give a more thorough rundown of our state of affairs than the last several TO articles on Hamilton. However the big issues, it kind of scratches on then runs away from. Healthcare and education as our biggest industries, and that's not a problem? Poverty? Maybe it's just too much of a white elephant but I'm more convinced than ever that the demographics of our core shape the image and prosperity of the entire city, in recent history for the worse. How do we change those demographics? I see the influx of middle class Torontonians, especially knowing some of them personally, our best potential for salvation. Think of it as an influx of money combined with urban values. Those two in combination are what Hamilton has been lacking for the last 60 years.

You're correct that the demographics of the lower city have to change. But it's not enough that middle class Torontonians simply live in Hamilton. For the city to suceed, it really needs an economic engine at home. There needs to be wealth generation in Hamilton. At one time Hamilton was an economic powerhouse, and that's when everything good about the city came to be. Without economic activity, a city dies. It's really as simple as that.

[highwater]

...but I'm more convinced than ever that the demographics of our core shape the image and prosperity of the entire city, in recent history for the worse. How do we change those demographics?

Rumour has it the Connaught is slated for affordable housing, which is pretty much a doomsday scenario for diversifying downtown's demographics.

[SteelTown]

I wish City Housing would focus more towards home ownership, like Options for Homes, than always affordable housing.

[FairHamilton]

New economy jobs are what is needed in Downtown Hamilton. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be the interest or the will from Hamilton politicians, or bureaucrats to actively pursue companies that will create wealth.

I'm glad what I've been preaching, jobs, jobs, jobs, since moving to Hamilton in March 2008 is gaining some traction, on this forum and outside this forum.

In the past, my signature was "It's the jobs, stupid", and I got into heated discussions with those who thought creating a good urban landscape would attract people and then employers would to locate close to those people.

Nope, it's the jobs first, http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=152367&highlight=jobs.

Unfortunately, it seems that all the developers and politicians want to attract is subsidized housing to boost downtown population density. And that has nothing to do with wealth creation. What we need is a change in local government and a paradigm shift in the outlooks and thoughts of bureaucrats. And we need it soon.

[FairHamilton]

I wish City Housing would focus more towards home ownership, like Options for Homes, than always affordable housing.

That and a mix of subsidized, geared to income and market rate housing. Diversity is extremely important to the urban fabric.

[thistleclub]

I often struggle with the question of whether we would be better off having accepted the proposed elevated transit of the early 80's. It certainly adds nothing to the street level aesthetic of the corridor it passes through. I've seen streets in Paris, the worldwide mecca of street life, where the metro runs elevated, that are absolutlely sketchy. Elevated transit removes passenger traffic from the street. In Vancouver BC the SkyTrain has largely avoided vibrant commercial streets in its alignment. The new line is underground except for the outer suburban portion. If the proposed Hamilton rapid transit had bypassed streets like James South, I feel that it would have been a net benefit. However the era of elevated rail as a preferred alignment is clearly over and cities from big to small have come full circle to street level transit, and this is the best time for Hamilton to get with the program.

My understanding (and if anyone was there and can correct me, have at it): The preferred "W" route that would have gone forward in 1981 had its southern terminus at the Canadian Tire at Mohawk/Upper James, an underground station at Mountain Plaza Mall, tunnelled through the escarpment to an elevated stop by St. Joseph's Hospital, slipped over to Hughson and headed north until it hit the TH&B (where it didn't stop), chased the rail line west to loop around Hunter/MacNab, ran around the Family Court and then headed over to the transit island on MacNab (elevated station), then east on King to James, north on James to King William, east to an elevated stop across from the Rebecca St bus station, then up Catharine to an optional elevated station between the Ramada and the Connaught, over to the TH&B and back into its mountain lair. It would be nice to have Vancouver's 60km of Skytrain, but that's not what was on the table -- and without Vancouver's socioeconomic profile and the 1986 Expo and the 2010 Olympics to use as leverage, it's not at all clear what would have come from Hamilton’s initial foray into elevated rail. It might have simply codified the era's hostility toward streetlife and made further transit innovation a political minefield. Who knows? I'm glad that LRT is being addressed more openly and thoughtfully than in generations past.

[SteelTown]

I had a picture of the Skytrain showing it would be elevated and literally running the East side of the Connaught, currently a parking lot.

[realcity]

Rumour has it the Connaught is slated for affordable housing, which is pretty much a doomsday scenario for diversifying downtown's demographics.

You gotta be kidding?

One third the hotels rooms of London and 3x the affordable housing. ALL of Hamilton is pretty much 'affordable housing'. 3-bedroom, 2 baths, 2-story houses for miles between Barton and Main for less then 130k.

Ya Hamilton is def moving in the right direction.


That's it... I'm moving to Toronto.

[realcity]

Whether elevated or not, that's irrelevant. What matters is how accessible, the number of stops, frequency and where the stops are.

How is underground different from elevated? Walk up, walk down, same shit.

*Personally elevated looks cooler* *and better views*

Chicago is an El-Train and is successful. Detroit's EL doesn't extend far enough into the suburbs to be used to capacity. We should learn from that.

In fact many Great Lake cities can't have underground trains bc of soil or rock issues --- whatever -- even Hamilton is challenged for underground, apparently there is an underground river. *Personally I think this is false and just repeated and an excuse to why we don't underground stuff and super-talls. but anyway.

The system whether elevated or underground just needs to connect important areas and have strategic stops.

TTC Subway is small by comparison to other cities but wherever there is a stop there is a cluster of development. Property values are relative to proximity of a TTC stop.

[realcity]

okay.... Cleveland's subway also runs mostly above ground, or under elevated roads *not technically underground* but is another example of a Great Lake subway.

But there is probably not a scarier subway then Cleveland's. If Hamilton had a subway it would probably be like Cleveland. *We're both dump-holes*

We can't even have underground washrooms. We did have underground washrooms once in Gore Park, but our cops and politicians didn't want the hassle. So now people have to wash and piss in the Gore Park fountain.... but I digress.

Wanna see a scary subway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of0SpmLAqYE

and I love Cleveland. *lived there once long ago for hockey, Garfield Heights to be exact, you know how the US loves the suburbs* but I digress again.

Buffalo's is at grade. I think that's what Hamilton's will look like. But IT HAS to extend to the suburbs, or else it will be as underused as Buffalo and Detroit trains. Do it BIG or else don't do it, and allow let the politicians call it a failure. Same goes for a PanAm stadium. *another digression*

DO NOT do a BRT (BLT I call it, bc it will be breakfast) bc it's a BUS(t).

[drpgq]

Affordable housing at the Connaught? Wow. Market rate condos I could live with, but more affordable housing? I agree with realcity that if there is one thing Hamilton has, it is affordable housing below the Mountain.

Affordable housing seems to me to be similar to a new highway in that supply creates new demand. We already have the new tower on King East and we need more? Cabrini Green here we come.

[emge]

I think the Spallaci building was pretty well done, and I'd rather have housing than a strip club on a main street..... but the Connaught as affordable housing is just ridiculous.

Who's behind that idea/pushing it forward? And seriously, where the **** is the vision? Not just for improving downtown and capitalizing on/going with a reno'd Gore, but the money a renovated Connaught could make. It shouldn't be such a hard concept to grasp.

[markbarbera]

What we need is an approach that reflects the city development philosophy Jane Jacobs advocated. The answer is not simply more jobs, or more housing. It's more jobs and more housing, along with sufficient infrastructure and services to support them (i.e. mass transit, retail, cultural and recreational venues). The revitalization of the core has to focus on all these elements to attract and retain businesses and citizens.

At risk of sounding insensitive, more affordable housing downtown works against this goal. The average disposable income of downtown residents needs to be pushed up if revitalization of the core is to take hold. I sincerely hope that the proposal for the Connaught site has affordable housing as only a small part of an overall plan for the site, which should embrace a mixed-use model. If this is a residential redevelopment with a commercial element and a balance between market value and affordable housing, then it would work. Use the existing buildings for hotel apartments and upscale condos, and build affordable condo units and rentals along Main and John. Link the entire complex with a retail concourse with a couple floors of office space above it.

[emge]

It's not insensitive, it's realistic.

I'd even argue it's more sensitive, since long-term it does little to help people of lower incomes to ghettoize people -- it certainly does less to help them than doing residential with multiple components including affordable housing and bringing multiple income levels to a neighbourhood.

There's a social advantage to living around people who know how to complain if certain things are not up to snuff, even if a person wouldn't have the experience, resources or confidence to do that themselves and have had to live in unsafe or less-than-secure environments on account of it.

And to give people who are causing certain problems the experience of rules being enforced -- an environment in which behaviour must improve, at least as it directly affects others. No free pass on tearing down what's around you - because the others around you do know where to turn, and like it or not, a lot of things are enforced (or not) dependent on neighbourhood and the type of people who call the relevant authorities.

There's also an advantage to living around people who provide a positive example (working, taxpaying, keeping their property clean, etc). There's probably a million more examples, but it's more helpful to encourage mixed-use than just putting people who need help with housing.

That in itself probably sounds a little insensitive, and overly simplistic... but you get the idea. There needs to be balance, not just neighbourhoods for "this type" and "that type" of person, and certainly not downtown as a place where we put everyone who can't afford to live where they choose. That's not good for anyone.



(That said, there is still a need for affordable housing. I ran into two seniors I've known for a couple years on the way home from the store yesterday - one has been waiting 3 years for rent-geared-to-income housing - she works part-time but because of health can only do that, the other for a year or two.

In the meantime, one's living in a small bedroom of a friend's house, the other in a most-certainly unsafe apartment where the tenants leave the exterior doors open, and it has been broken into before. It's doubly unsafe because he's deaf and cannot tell if anyone is coming inside. That's not safe, and it's not acceptable.

Those are the type of people who most need real affordable housing - working, paying rent, but they can't afford places with privacy or safety. But what they don't need is to be put in a building with people who for various other reasons, self-inflicted or not, are going to make even a newly constructed building into an unsafe environment. The types that would finally get a rent-geared-to-income place and then walk right into the rent-to-own Easyhome furniture store next door to Access to Housing... but those businesses thrive because they offer easy solutions in neighbourhoods where people don't see other options. And if the neighbourhood was more mixed, we wouldn't have crap like that there...)

[bigguy1231]

I would rather see them pull the building down and turn it into a parking lot before turning it into low income housing and I am not a fan of parking lots in the downtown.
Turning this fine old building into public housing is totally inappropriate. Turning into housing of any kind is inappropriate. I think something creative like an office condo, where suites are sold to businesses might be a novel idea.

[realcity]

Here's an idea. You know the parking lots at Wilson and Rebecca? Affordable housing *Build a new fricken building*

Why does everything in this city have to be a building conversion? According to LIUNA the Lister reno is more expensive then a new building. If that's true then build a building, don't convert a former 4 star hotel to affordable housing.

[SteelTown]

The Lister is more expensive because of the massive mess, orginal drywall, etc was still inside. The Connaught is a gaint empty shell, no drywall just beams supporting the building. You can start immediately with the Connaught. With the Lister Block as you can witness it takes months to clean up and gut the place before you can even start the real work.

[Jon Dalton]

I hope to God that subsidized housing in the Connaught is just a rumour. Who would argue that apartments in this one of a kind location would not rent? They may not be as sexy to developers but plain old fashioned rental units are how money was traditionally made in downtown housing. I do know alot more people looking for decent 1 or 2 bedroom aparments than $200,000 suites or 'investment properties', but maybe that's just the people I hang around with.

[realcity]

Okay not just Lister but it's common sentiment that most all building conversions are more expensive then building new. Remember the Connaught already has had about $12 million dollars put into it to get it to this stage. ($4 million was taxpayers money).

Plus empty land is less $ then land with a building on it. All around if you have a blank piece of land it is most definitely cheaper to buy and build on then buy land with a building and do a reno conversion.

[realcity]

To answer the question in the title of this thread, before this turns into a subsidized housing thread.

The world and Canada experienced 20 straight years of growth and prosperity. One of the biggest bullruns in history. Since the end of the early 90s recession everywhere (almost everywhere) in the country went on a building boom tear and job growth.

Hamilton located in the middle of a sea of prosperity during those 20 years went into hibernation. I would even argue that we declined. The downtown, retail, office vacancy everything got worse.

Let's go back 20 years ago.

I worked in Jackson square in early 90s and remember all the stores were full. I can ever remember the Eaton Centre fully occupied right to the third floor. My friend worked at the Foot Locker or Collegiate (sports store on the third floor). The Eaton Center had first class retail, the type of stores you see in Lime Ridge now. The retail along King was of better quality, there was still a department store downtown, not a payday advance loans every 3rd store. The Effort Trust Mall was worth going to. The Right House had fur coats and expensive jewellery stores.

Transit use was three times higher then it is now. There were expensive & fine dining restaurants, La Costa, La Boca, Shakespeare's, Martins Steak House, The Aquarium, Trocadero, one on York by the Family Fitness, the restaurant in the what is now Jackson's food court. Eaton Center had a nice one on the third floor, more cocktail lounge. Sheraton's cocktail lounge. You could barely get a table at Sheraton's Sunday Brunch. How many fine dining places are there now? Sports bars and Pubs.

The Connaught was thriving and hosting big functions in the ballrooms. The Connaught retail mall was full. The Sheraton was hosing weddings and conventions. The convention centre was actually hosting conventions. I think even the Lister had tenants then, the Tivoli was a Famous Players, there were lots of clubs a vibrant nite life. Tier 1 concerts at Copps, Guns n Roses, Metallica etc during their peak were playing Copps.

There was no less then 5 good size advertising agencies, with clients like Jaguar, Smirnoff, Dofasco, Firestone, IBM, Westinghouse. There were big accounting firms, investment banks, insurance companies. Stelco Tower was near full occupancy.

Recent progress is the Art Crawl. The only think built with any significance was the New Federal Bldg (which sucks). And I think the second phase of CIBC towers in 1991. The TH&B station reno. Spallaci, and I struggle to find much other good news. McMaster has improved.

Is Hamilton dead? Yes, or else you could say it's on life support.

Why should we not expect the next economic bull run (starting somewhere in 2010) to evade Hamilton again?

[matt602]

It sickens me to think that people are actually considering affordable housing for a building that was built as a 5 star hotel and once had royalty staying within it's walls. I'd rather see the building burn to the ground than it converted to affordable housing. It was built as a hotel, it always *was* a hotel and it should always *be* a hotel. This building is not a dime a dozen, it's about as unique as they come. There are hundreds of other buildings within the core alone that could be used as affordable housing. Leave the Connaught alone.

[flar]

To answer the question in the title of this thread, before this turns into a subsidized housing thread.

The world and Canada experienced 20 straight years of growth and prosperity. One of the biggest bullruns in history. Since the end of the early 90s recession everywhere (almost everywhere) in the country went on a building boom tear and job growth.

Hamilton located in the middle of a sea of prosperity during those 20 years went into hibernation. I would even argue that we declined. The downtown, retail, office vacancy everything got worse.

Let's go back 20 years ago.

I worked in Jackson square in early 90s and remember all the stores were full. I can ever remember the Eaton Centre fully occupied right to the third floor. My friend worked at the Foot Locker or Collegiate (sports store on the third floor). The Eaton Center had first class retail, the type of stores you see in Lime Ridge now. The retail along King was of better quality, there was still a department store downtown, not a payday advance loans every 3rd store. The Effort Trust Mall was worth going to. The Right House had fur coats and expensive jewellery stores.

Transit use was three times higher then it is now. There were expensive & fine dining restaurants, La Costa, La Boca, Shakespeare's, Martins Steak House, The Aquarium, Trocadero, one on York by the Family Fitness, the restaurant in the what is now Jackson's food court. Eaton Center had a nice one on the third floor, more cocktail lounge. Sheraton's cocktail lounge. You could barely get a table at Sheraton's Sunday Brunch. How many fine dining places are there now? Sports bars and Pubs.

The Connaught was thriving and hosting big functions in the ballrooms. The Connaught retail mall was full. The Sheraton was hosing weddings and conventions. The convention centre was actually hosting conventions. I think even the Lister had tenants then, the Tivoli was a Famous Players, there were lots of clubs a vibrant nite life. Tier 1 concerts at Copps, Guns n Roses, Metallica etc during their peak were playing Copps.

There was no less then 5 good size advertising agencies, with clients like Jaguar, Smirnoff, Dofasco, Firestone, IBM, Westinghouse. There were big accounting firms, investment banks, insurance companies. Stelco Tower was near full occupancy.

Recent progress is the Art Crawl. The only think built with any significance was the New Federal Bldg (which sucks). And I think the second phase of CIBC towers in 1991. The TH&B station reno. Spallaci, and I struggle to find much other good news. McMaster has improved.

Is Hamilton dead? Yes, or else you could say it's on life support.

Why should we not expect the next economic bull run (starting somewhere in 2010) to evade Hamilton again?

That's what happens when a city loses like 50,000 jobs.

[realcity]

Just 50,000

I think there was more to consider. Some cities did some reinventing. Pittsburgh is always considered to be an example and perhaps Baltimore, Lower Manhattan was a hole in the 60s & 70s.

The difference is that there has been absolutely NO POLITICAL WILL or LEADERSHIP for 40 years. Not even a tiny bit.


There is nothing more democratic then 'getting what one deserves'. We vote for them, we get what we deserve.


*new NDP new new slogan. "Get what you deserve. Vote NDP"*