[Richard Eade]

Has the City gone too far in 'regulating' the Byward Market? According to Ron Corbett of the Ottawa Sun it has.

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/columnists/ron_corbett/2009/09/06/10773991.html

Is The Market as we know it doomed?

[Yroc]

I find the market has improved this year. Specifically the vegetable vendors.

[kwoldtimer]

I find the market has improved this year. Specifically the vegetable vendors.

The cauliflower alone is worth the trip (how do they get it so perfect?). Only downside is wrestling with the crowds on Byward on a nice weekend, especially the clever folk who stop to socialize in the middle of the narrow, crowded sidewalk (usually beside a sandwich board :hell: )!! I wonder when the city will get smart and close Byward to traffic on Saturday's and Sundays in the summer to let the vendors and pedestrians have more space? In the meantime, if you are one of the guilty parties and have wondered who jabbed their knuckle into your back to get you to move, it was probably me (crude, but effective :tup: )!

[Yroc]

If someone ever did that to me, they would be suprised when I turned around a gave them a quick and hard punch in the face. Might I suggest you try saying excuse me in lieu of assualting people and potentially being assulted yourself.

Agree that they should close some roads in the market. I know there was talk about it last summer, but that seemed to have passed quickly. Closing the roads perm. would allow the vendors to move in and allow the local businesses to have their store fronts back. Also those in the Byward Market building could have small patios.

Would improve the market big time imo.

[Zach6668]

The cauliflower alone is worth the trip (how do they get it so perfect?). Only downside is wrestling with the crowds on Byward on a nice weekend, especially the clever folk who stop to socialize in the middle of the narrow, crowded sidewalk (usually beside a sandwich board :hell: )!! I wonder when the city will get smart and close Byward to traffic on Saturday's and Sundays in the summer to let the vendors and pedestrians have more space? In the meantime, if you are one of the guilty parties and have wondered who jabbed their knuckle into your back to get you to move, it was probably me (crude, but effective :tup: )!

You forgot to mention that both of them were pushing those double-wide baby strollers. At least that's my experience. :D

If someone ever did that to me, they would be suprised when I turned around a gave them a quick and hard punch in the face.

Agree that they should close some roads in the market. I know there was talk about it last summer, but that seemed to have passed quickly. Closing the roads perm. would allow the vendors to move in and allow the local businesses to have their store fronts back. Also those in the Byward Market building could have small patios.

Would improve the market big time imo.

This is a fantastic idea. There's no reason to have the N/S roads there, except for access for vendors, I suppose. Either way, deliveries wouldn't be a ton tougher using York or George. It'd be so much better if it were more pedestrian oriented.

[m0nkyman]

Yes, because fixing the Byward Market is critical, as it is a failure and needs to be fixed as soon as possible. Let's use Sparks St as our model, and close some streets to mimic it's success. :rolleyes:

[Yroc]

Certainly you cannot seriously think the ByWard Market's success is due to the fact that these two streets are open to traffic or that the failure of Sparks is due to the fact that they closed the road.

[kwoldtimer]

[QUOTE=Zach6668;4446706]You forgot to mention that both of them were pushing those double-wide baby strollers. At least that's my experience. :D

QUOTE]

You must have been walking right behind me that day! I edited out a mention of the strollers because I didn't want to seem anti-child :sly: What's up with strollers nowadays - am I shrinking in my old age or have they gotten honking big? I saw a woman at Bridgehead the other day struggling to get through the doorway with one the size of a small mobile home. Since the kid doesn't give a
s--t what he's being wheeled around in I assume that they're designed to satisfy some obscure urge of the parent.

[m0nkyman]

Certainly you cannot seriously think the ByWard Market's success is due to the fact that these two streets are open to traffic or that the failure of Sparks is due to the fact that they closed the road.

I think that closing the roads in the Byward Market would seriously harm it, and that opening Sparks St. to limited traffic would be beneficial to it's future.

[Yroc]

It my opinion Sparks fails because it became a buisness district (does well during lunch Mon-Fri). The market flourishes because there are many condos and other housing nearby.

It's like NCC tried to build the Market on Sparks St, but it did not happen as it was already happening naturally in the ByWard Market area. Housing developers had to compete against huge businesses on Sparks for property but did not have to do that in the Market.

[Kitchissippi]

Personally, I think the failure of Sparks Street is due to the fact that in the 70s Wellington street was cut in half and then unnaturally spliced on to the Ottawa River Parkway, and then the LeBreton area was bulldozed. This upset the main pattern of commercial east-west traffic that used to naturally flow between Centretown and Hintonburg, and moved it farther south. The hole in the urban fabric at LeBreton essentially made western downtown into a dead end and has been stagnating since. The same can be said about the eastern end of Hintonburg.

I doubt banning traffic on some streets in the ByWard Market would harm it. The two streets one either side of the market building, especially. If and/or when transit is finally streamlined downtown and there is no longer much need for the Rideau Street bus mall, vehicular traffic should be concentrated there and there would be no real reason for George or York streets to be full through roads.

[kwoldtimer]

I agree with you about Byward Market. The idea of at least partly closing William and Byward between George and Clarence appeals to me. I'd also take a hard look at York between Sussex and William and Clarence from Sussex to Dalhousie. There would still have to be some vehicular access for residents and deliveries, and maybe a couple of gaps for parking garage access but overall the creation of a pedestrian zone would seem a terrific thing. I will admit I don't know what that might do to car traffic (Dalhousie is already brutal much of the time), but it doesn't seem to raise insurmountable difficulties. I am not sure why it would have any negative effect on business in the area.

[Ottawan]

Just saw this thread and thought I'd post a reply...

Closing traffic on ByWard and William Streets beside the Market Building seems appealing for tourists and area residents, but is not practical in so far as it would severely harm a large part of what makes the ByWard Market work. Consider the following:

Market Vendors require access to load and unload their stands frequently throughout the day - there is no hidden backroom to store their product, it is either at their farm or warehouse, or in their truck. It is not feasible to do this loading or unloading anywhere other than behind the stands.

In order for the Market to remain successful, the fruit & vegetable / plant stands need to be viable. The art & craft stands are unfortunately more tourist oriented (although with the new by-law requirements this will hopefully change) and rely on the attraction of the Market being a "working local farmer's market" for their appeal. The fact of the matter is that many of the regular customers have been shopping the Market for MANY years (often decades) and are rather elderly folk who do not live within walking distance (alot of customers are from Vanier). These people know which vendors they want to shop at, and are not willing to circle the neighbourhood looking for parking. For this in-out shopping that makes the Market viable, the 15 minute parking zones behind market stands on ByWard Street are essential.

Once again in reference to the regular paying customers: when buying bedded plants, customers expect the convenience offered by leaving the prepaid plants with the vendor, and then bringing their car around to load them.

In addition to the vendor stands, the businesses in the Market Building and along ByWard and William Street require frequent access.

Cyclists have a hard enough time in the area without having these streets turned into officially pedestrian spaces.


That being said, the City is planning on closing the north corner of William Street at York Street, and rerouting the traffic from the parking garage north to Clarence Street. This will create a newly landscaped area for special events, performances and new vendors, and limit some of the traffic in the core of the Market.

[RTWAP]

That being said, the City is planning on closing the north corner of William Street at York Street, and rerouting the traffic from the parking garage north to Clarence Street. This will create a newly landscaped area for special events, performances and new vendors, and limit some of the traffic in the core of the Market.

That's a good idea. I've used that portion of the street many times coming out of the parking garage and it's always been a problem. There's already a significant amount of pedestrian space there. Adding some more could allow them to do some special things that they can't right now.

[Kitchissippi]

Closing a street to regular traffic does not mean supply trucks cannot enter. Practically all European open-air markets are in pedestrian only zones and function just fine. Also, the goal should not be necessarily making the streets pedestrian-only, but making them pedestrian-priority.

What is ridiculous in the ByWard Market is that we seem to value surface parking more than pedestrian space. The area dedicated to car parking far outweighs the pedestrian space. Trying to find a decent place to sit outside after you've bought a Beavertail or ice cream can be difficult.

What the streets around the Market building need to become is more like a shared space (http://www.livablestreets.com/streetswiki/shared-space) or a"woonerf" (http://www.livablestreets.com/streetswiki/woonerf), where by taking away the divisions between road and sidewalk allow the use of the street to become more flexible depending on season or time of day.

[umbria27]

Closing a street to regular traffic does not mean supply trucks cannot enter. Practically all European open-air markets are in pedestrian only zones and function just fine. Also, the goal should not be necessarily making the streets pedestrian-only, but making them pedestrian-priority.

What is ridiculous in the ByWard Market is that we seem to value surface parking more than pedestrian space. The area dedicated to car parking far outweighs the pedestrian space. Trying to find a decent place to sit outside after you've bought a Beavertail or ice cream can be difficult.

What the streets around the Market building need to become is more like a shared space (http://www.livablestreets.com/streetswiki/shared-space) or a"woonerf" (http://www.livablestreets.com/streetswiki/woonerf), where by taking away the divisions between road and sidewalk allow the use of the street to become more flexible depending on season or time of day.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said here. In Ottawa we're good at putting plazas and benches where people aren't. In the market, you need to know where the courtyards are to sit down and eat your ice cream. As long as Ottawans are car centric, the city will have to maintain a delicate balance between parking and pedestrians in the market, but it should definitely start to shift towards pedestrians, and closing those two streets on weekends is a good start.

As much as I like the term woonerf, which is a new one to me, it sounds like they depend on curves as traffic calming measures. A great idea, but difficult to implement in the very grid oriented market. I particularly like the following quote in your reference:

"The use of curves eliminates lengthy sightlines for drivers. "Don't let [the driver] search for the end of his torment," a Dutch woonerf expert suggests only half-jokingly."

[Yroc]

There is nothing that says the city cannot close a street to traffic and still allow access to delivery vehicles. They can also further limit access to these delivery vehicles to off peak hours.

I live in Vanier and use the market on a regular basis. I have never once been able to park on either street even with the 15 min zones.

Making these streets more pedestrian friendly does not mean you need to remove cyclists. In fact it would make the route more bicycle friendly which it currently is not. For that matter, it is not very car friendly atm either.

This not to mention, those who operate businesses on these streets have little space for patios in the summer or for proper store fronts and signage that can be seen.

I loathe sitting in Must Tapas looking at the white van that is parked 6-8 feet away every day (it is one of the vendors vehicles). I would be upset as an owner who pays proper property tax being shut out of view by vendors who don't.

[RTWAP]

As much as I like the term woonerf, which is a new one to me, it sounds like they depend on curves as traffic calming measures. A great idea, but difficult to implement in the very grid oriented market. I particularly like the following quote in your reference:

"The use of curves eliminates lengthy sightlines for drivers. "Don't let [the driver] search for the end of his torment," a Dutch woonerf expert suggests only half-jokingly."

Use some big-ass street art to create an obstacle course with the required curves?

[waterloowarrior]

report by Project for Public Spaces
http://ottawa.ca/sites/ottawa.ca/files/attachments/ottpage/byward_market_en.pdf

Citizen summary
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/ottawa/Subsidize+food+sellers+rents+validate+parking+advises+report/8228399/story.html

sometimes I wonder how much of the traffic in the market is people circling around looking for a free spot until they give up and go into a garage

[NOWINYOW]

report by Project for Public Spaces
http://ottawa.ca/sites/ottawa.ca/files/attachments/ottpage/byward_market_en.pdf

Citizen summary
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/ottawa/Subsidize+food+sellers+rents+validate+parking+advises+report/8228399/story.html

sometimes I wonder how much of the traffic in the market is people circling around looking for a free spot until they give up and go into a garage

I live 2 blocks from the market. I can assure you, the bulk of weekend and weeknight traffic on my street is looking for free street parking. I've seen fights break out over a free street parking site.

[Harley613]

I live 2 blocks from the market. I can assure you, the bulk of weekend and weeknight traffic on my street is looking for free street parking. I've seen fights break out over a free street parking site.


sorry about that.. i try not to get so worked up, but if i'm waiting with my signal on and some jerk-off rounds the corner and snags it, i get a little angry.

[J.OT13]

sometimes I wonder how much of the traffic in the market is people circling around looking for a free spot until they give up and go into a garage

I use too do that, now I just park in the city's parkade. It's not that expensive and you get a nice view from the top.

I think we need a few more fresh food locations around the core of the actual Market and possibly make it a bit more pedestrian friendly (William Plazas are a good start), but not fully pedestrian until a proper city wide transit system is built(Bank-Rideau-Montreal subway line, complete ORT reaching all the suburbs and direct airport to downtown service as well as a proper rapid transit connection to Gatineau).

Free parking is neither a solution nor needed. We already have the hotels, the condos and the Rideau Centre transit hub and to a lesser point the CBD to keep feeding the market. Free parking would only increase the vehicular chaos. We would probably even see cheap bstds conducting business in the CBD first trying to find a free spot in the Market.

[NOWINYOW]

sorry about that.. i try not to get so worked up, but if i'm waiting with my signal on and some jerk-off rounds the corner and snags it, i get a little angry.

I'm contemplating setting up a live web cam with a view down my street. When I'm sitting out on my deck I get a real chuckle watching people trying to parallel park Also the others who continuously drive up and down waiting for that one elusive spot. A few hundred feet further down the road, there's a city parking lot that would cost less the gas being wasted.

True story. Sitting out on a Sunday afternoon, some bloke parks half way in front of tenant parking. He looks up, sees me and then "instructs" me to tell bylaw he'd be right back. Sure enough, bylaw came by shortly and placed a ticket. The guy returns and gets mad at me!!

[umbria27]

I live 2 blocks from the market. I can assure you, the bulk of weekend and weeknight traffic on my street is looking for free street parking. I've seen fights break out over a free street parking site.

The people looking for free parking are most usually suburbanites who come downtown once or twice a year. They are unused to paying for parking and remember the market of 20 years ago when free parking was more plentiful.
Many of my trips to the market are on foot or by bicycle, but if I have to drive I dive straight into the first parking lot. Life is too short to spend circling for parking.

There's another report on the recent Public Spaces study in the CBC today, with a focus on the decline in produce vendors.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2013/04/11/ottawa-byward-market-report-city-planning-public-space-farmers.html

It's hard to believe that with the rise of farmer's markets, 100 mile diets and other locavores that there isn't more interest in this. Part of the solution it would seem would be to talk to the right people, the people behind farmer's markets elsewhere in the city. Other than that, you simply have to reserve space for them and reconcile yourself to the fact that you might not get as much revenue from the organic cheese dude as you do from the t-shirt vendor.

It's worth asking too, whether we want to preserve the tradition. I think the market would survive without its veg&fruit vendors, but it would lose a connection with its past. There would be no market in the market. The street vendors contribute to the pedestrian nature of the area.
I think you can revive the food vendors and also encourage other stall based vendors. The local produce season is short, so bring in art and quality craft fairs in the slow seasons.

[Chris-R]

I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the traffic in the market arrived by foot, bicycle, or transit. With that said, motorists are... well... not shy about unloading their furor on the businesses and vendors when they don't get the easy and free spot they want. They made it quite plain and regularly at that. I know that leaves an impression on business owners and I can see why there exists some tension over the parking issue.

[flar]

I usually circle once looking for street parking and then go to the city parking garage on Clarence.

As for the vendors, I've always found the street vendors too pricey down there. I'm used to farmer's markets being cheaper than grocery stores. When I go to the market, it's usually to eat at a restaurant, people watch, visit my brother or shop at some of the specialty shops down there.

[NOWINYOW]

I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the traffic in the market arrived by foot, bicycle, or transit. With that said, motorists are... well... not shy about unloading their furor on the businesses and vendors when they don't get the easy and free spot they want. They made it quite plain and regularly at that. I know that leaves an impression on business owners and I can see why there exists some tension over the parking issue.

I'd be very surprised if even 50% of the people walking around the market arrived by any method that wasn't a car!

Take a walk down Dalhousie around 2 or 3pm on a pleasant Saturday/Sunday afternoon. The traffic coming from Quebec is backed up north to Bolton! Every street is packed with parking, some of it illegal (gasp!)

[kevinbottawa]

From David Reevely's blog. Seems merchants want the opposite of what's being proposed on this forum.

The problem of cars in the ByWard Market

April 11, 2013. 4:17 pm

There’s a lot of interesting stuff in this report on what might be done to spiff up the ByWard Market and make it more sustainable as a market in the long run.

I’m struck by the talk of making the place less car-friendly. Not banning cars or anything, but actively promoting bikes and ultimately replacing asphalt roads with interlocking pavers, like on Granville Island, where the line between pedestrian and auto space is less clear. This is striking because one of the complaints you hear from ByWard Market merchants again and again is that when it’s hard for people to drive in the Market, they don’t come, and the merchants’ business depends on a lot more than neighbourhood customers.

They feel really strongly about this. I wrote a story touching on it a couple of summers ago, in the context of the city’s closing a bit of William Street to make a plaza:

“If working means a decrease in business, then it’s working,” says Miriam Farbiasz, who with her husband, Isaac, owns the Byward Fruit Market on ByWard Market Square. She says a lot of things are tough about the business, from multiple seasons of roadwork nearby to increased competition from farmers’ markets, but nothing has done more damage than two summers’ blocking of William Street. The day after the first closing last year, Farbiasz says, business fell 16 per cent, and she estimates it’s cost her store $100,000 over two summers.

“My customers have been complaining,” she says. “They’ve been saying, ‘I’m sitting in traffic, I’m not getting where I’m going, I can’t do this.’ . Anyone who sits in a car should be able to drive in and out of a commercial district.”

There’s no better way to kill a shopping area than by banning vehicles, Farbiasz says, pointing to Sparks Street as an example, and the William closure is a step in that direction. Driving is expensive, she says, and people only do it if they have to. Make drivers’ lives difficult, and they’ll just go away.

…

“If this street doesn’t get opened up, and I see any other attempt to close another street, I’m gone.”

Biking improvements and the eventual opening of an LRT station on Rideau Street might help, but since everyone is terrified that the Byward Fruit Market’s closing would set off a cascade that would end food retailing in the Market, that point of view matters a very great deal.

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/04/11/the-problem-of-cars-in-the-byward-market/

[Kitchissippi]

My wish for the ByWard Market is that they build more underground parking to replace on-street parking. If the parking garages are regulated to have the same rate as on-street meters, and maybe a cheaper flat rate after hours, people wouldn't bother driving around looking for spots. If they dug up York Street and put 3 or 4 levels of parking underneath I bet it could equal all the street parking currently available. I would also love to see the current garage building demolished and replaced with an open air market plaza (or a second market building) with 5 or 6 levels of underground parking. The way things are, we are not giving the Market room to grow, we are just expecting it to get more crowded, which can also potentially turn off some people.