[jtk1519]

The French national railway SNCF has filed a detailed proposal with the Federal Railroad Administration (http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090918005693&newsLang=en) stating an interest in operating high-speed rail in Texas.

The route in question would run from DFW through Austin and into San Antonio. It would not be the Gulf Coast route that's been on the USDOT's official list of 10 prospective HSR corridors (http://www.fra.dot.gov/Downloads/RRdev/hsrspfacts.pdf) or the much-promoted Dallas-Houston link (including the Texas T-Bone (http://www.thsrtc.com/)). But Houston could be in the distance.

From Yonah Freemark on the TransportPolitic blog (http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/19/breaking-sncf-proposes-development-of-high-speed-rail-in-midwest-texas-florida-and-california-corridors/):

At $13.8 billion in construction costs, SNCF expects benefits to outweigh public infrastructure costs by 170% over a period of 15 years. This project would have the highest rate of return of any of the corridors profiled in the studies presented here.

Quoting now from the proposal, as posted on a federal website:

Speeds of up to 220 mph for HSR services are expected to generate a significant number of new trips as well as draw from the air and auto modes. Access to HSR services for both residents and visitors will be convenient due to 7 proposed stations conveniently located close to medium and large city populations, city central business districts and airports to attract residents, providing convenient and cost competitive alternative to driving and air travel.

This HST 220 concept keeps pace for a further complete Texan HS network ("Triangle" or "Tbone" type) involving Houston, once the pertinence of HS services proven. Meanwhile, the existing corridors will serve as key feeders.

TxDOT spokesman Chris Lippincott said the SNCF filing "is the first expression we're aware of" from a potential investor-operator interested in Texas high-speed rail.

The filing isn't related to applications for stimulus money, but in response to Congressman John Mica's interest in finding out what private companies think they can make money in the U.S. That provision was inserted in legislation last year, and the French filing was in response, said FRA spokesman Warren Flatau.

SNCF's chairman has been talking up his company's interest (http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/08/in-dc-french-rail-chief-touts.html) in developing HSR in the U.S., but now it's officially stated. The other corridors cited by SNCF are in Florida, California and the Midwest.

Over the summer, the state filed applications (http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/07/texas-seeks-2-billion-in-feder.html) for a chunk of $13 billion in rail-improvement stimulus money, including planning funds for high-speed corridors. The current Texas Eagle route (http://www.texaseagle.com/home.htm) was one of them. The DFW-San Antonio link is essentially the Eagle route.

The French company is a world leader in HSR technology and runs the TGV, which has set the world speed record for a rail vehicle -- more than 350 mph.

The interest in Texas runs counter to thinking that service here would be unprofitable. Commentators and experts have said -- perhaps thinking that this is the Texas of Giant -- that we're too spread out (http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/08/harvard-prof-costs-of-dallas-t.html) and that HSR service is made for the more densely populated Northeast. Of course that's not us, but anyone who's ever driven I-35 from Dallas to San Antonio can see the urbanization of this state -- three of the nation's 10 most populous cities and growing.

The French may have something here.

Here is the filing:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1840/80885245.jpg

Rail Plan (http://www.scribd.com/doc/20231126/Rail-Plan)

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/09/french-interested-in-texas-hig.html

[ardecila]

I wonder if this will actually lead to SNCF building and operating lines. Right now, it seems like the government is shying away from additional spending on high-speed rail. The existing $8 billion should make some nice improvements, but it won't nearly do anything like this, except in California.

This is good for Texas... they seem to like public-private partnerships, where cost savings can be claimed and a bone can be thrown to free-market people. On the other hand, I can't imagine Texans being happy that the French surrender monkeys are gonna come in and build their mega-project for them. ;)

[TexasPlaya]

This is good for Texas... they seem to like public-private partnerships, where cost savings can be claimed and a bone can be thrown to free-market people. On the other hand, I can't imagine Texans being happy that the French surrender monkeys are gonna come in and build their mega-project for them. ;)

Gotta love the Simpsons reference.

[glowrock]

This is great for Texas! Perhaps SNCF's interest is real for the California HSR project as well? If so, that would lead to several major metro areas finally getting a much-needed transportation and economic boost! :tup:

Aaron (Glowrock)

[ProTram]

I really see no problem with getting significant assistance from a company that has a PROVEN track record in the business. Bury the hatchet Texas and get over past grievances and open your arms to a truly remarkable infrastructure plan. This may be a hard thing to ask. The French could be good advisers regarding HSR.

[jtk1519]

So I sifted through all 240 pages of the proposal and pulled out these nuggets...


Expected cost of $13.8 billion broken down as follows...


http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4360/005pf.jpg


Projections are that by 2025 revenues will surpass operating expenses and then begin to pay for the initial capital investment to the extent that only 62% of initial costs will have to come from the public.


http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6317/001bv.jpg


Route would be designed so that speeds of 220mph would be achieved between stops, increasing to 250mph with improvements over time.



SNCF estimates that because of the distance between metros, speeds of 185-220mph are necessary for efficiency.



Based on those speeds, one could travel from Dallas to San Antonio in 1 hour and 50 minutes (currently 4 hours and 17 minutes by auto according to Google maps).


Travel times between stations break down as follows...

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1047/004nr.jpg


The HSR line would be electrified and fully grade separated double track.



200m long trains would carry 500-550 passengers.



Expected start date of 2018 with 3.3 million passengers estimated in the first year of operation, increasing to 12.1 million by 2025. All estimates based on the most conservative of population growth projections.


Benefits would be as follows...

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/238/002mq.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/304/003gn.jpg

Proposed routes...

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5898/81536799.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4161/15859023.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2056/77413995.jpg

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1102/81998732.jpg

[JMancuso]

this plan is le half-assed without houston included.

[jtk1519]

this plan is le half-assed without houston included.

Houston is part of a later extension possibly splitting off from the main line like the old Texas TGV proposal. I think the need to alleviate congestion in the rapidly expanding I-35 corridor far outweighs the need to connect Dallas and Houston.

[TexasPlaya]

Houston is part of a later extension possibly splitting off from the main line like the old Texas TGV proposal. I think the need to alleviate congestion in the rapidly expanding I-35 corridor far outweighs the need to connect Dallas and Houston.

Seems a lot of the congestion stems from the US-Mexico trade. That is just a personal observation from driving the Austin-Dallas route. It was crazy how many trucks were on the road and how they can slow things down.

Honestly, the I-35 corridor is only bad between SA and Austin and until you get south of DFW. Seriously, how many flights are between DFW and HOU compared to how this current rail is setup. Furthermore, where are the plans for mass transit upgrades in Austin and SA that will be able to provide support to this HSR. I understand Austin has rail being completed but overall Austin doesn't have any type of extensive transit.

[electricron]

Honestly, the I-35 corridor is only bad between SA and Austin and until you get south of DFW. Seriously, how many flights are between DFW and HOU compared to how this current rail is setup. Furthermore, where are the plans for mass transit upgrades in Austin and SA that will be able to provide support to this HSR. I understand Austin has rail being completed but overall Austin doesn't have any type of extensive transit.

Both Austin and San Antonio have excellent bus services. Plans are being developed to build streetcar, light rail, and commuter rail in both cities. But a bus system is a transit system too. Why do so many think rails must be included in any transit system for it to be considered extensive? Obviously, the airlines have no problem booking 46 flights today with lousy transit in Austin and San Antonio.

Per Expedia......
Direct Flights between DFW and Austin today = 10
Direct Flights between DFW and San Antonio today = 10
Direct Flights between Love Field and Austin today = 12
Direct Flights between Love Field and San Antonio today = 14
Total = 46 non-stop flights today, not including flights originating from Temple and Waco.

[ardecila]

^^
The airports work because they have good highway access, extensive parking, and extensive rental car facilities. The downtown HSR stations will not have these amenities, so they need to be served by transit instead. The airport HSR stations will definitely be more successful than downtown stations if they are integrated well.

On the other hand, taxis may be able to make downtown stations immensely more attractive, provided that station designers allow for sizable taxi stands.

[jtk1519]

^^
The airports work because they have good highway access, extensive parking, and extensive rental car facilities. The downtown HSR stations will not have these amenities, so they need to be served by transit instead. The airport HSR stations will definitely be more successful than downtown stations if they are integrated well.

On the other hand, taxis may be able to make downtown stations immensely more attractive, provided that station designers allow for sizable taxi stands.

It seems to me that we would be looking at airport stations anyway. The Stations in downtown Fort Worth and downtown Dallas won't be a problem because there is plenty of transit options available at both.

I think realistically, an Austin station will go in at the airport because for the life of me I don't see how you can run HSR into downtown Austin and by that time perhaps the MetroRail line can be extended to Bergstrom.

San Antonio I think would be good either way. VIA offers plenty of bus routes downtown and by then the first BRT line should be up and running.

[TexasPlaya]

Both Austin and San Antonio have excellent bus services. Plans are being developed to build streetcar, light rail, and commuter rail in both cities. But a bus system is a transit system too. Why do so many think rails must be included in any transit system for it to be considered extensive? Obviously, the airlines have no problem booking 46 flights today with lousy transit in Austin and San Antonio.

Calm down. Where did I say anything about lousy transit? Where did I allude to a bus being not being a transit system? Houston's entire present day commuter system is via bus and it rocks. Austin and SA bus service being excellent is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion.

Furthermore, SA's and Austin's airports serve the region well but don't really compare to HOU and DFW's. 46 flights in one day between those cities isn't all that impressive. Furthermore, the transit in said cities, I would imagine a near majority of people using the airports (besides employees) drive or take a cab.

Per Expedia......
Direct Flights between DFW and Austin today = 10
Direct Flights between DFW and San Antonio today = 10
Direct Flights between Love Field and Austin today = 12
Direct Flights between Love Field and San Antonio today = 14
Total = 46 non-stop flights today, not including flights originating from Temple and Waco.

Alright how many flights go between HOU and DFW, including both major airports of each city.

I just think not initially connecting Texas's two largest and most important metros by HSR will negatively effect usage and perception of how HSR can work in Texas.

[electricron]

(1) Where did I say anything about lousy transit? Where did I allude to a bus being not being a transit system?
(2) I just think not initially connecting Texas's two largest and most important metros by HSR will negatively effect usage and perception of how HSR can work in Texas.

(1) "Furthermore, where are the plans for mass transit upgrades in Austin and SA that will be able to provide support to this HSR." BTW, if that doesn't hint at having lousy transit, what may I ask does?
(2) Try taking some of your own advice and calm down. TGV was replying to a specific FRA/Amtrak RFI (Reguest for Information). Guess what, that RFI asked about any already designated HSR corridors. The San Antonio to Dallas-Fort Worth is already designated. Of course they only barely mention Houston in their reply. But they did leave options for connecting Houston to the corridor later, either by the old Triangle or new T-Bone plans.

What I found promising in their response to the RFI was that the San Antonio to Dallas-Fort Worth corridor is viable all by itself, without including Houston. It can only be MORE viable if Houston was added to the plan.

I'm waiting for the obligatory complaint from South Texas that they were ignored again. Come on folks, TGV wasn't asked to respond to cities not already designated, therefore they didn't respond about adding Houston or South Texas to this corridor.

[electricron]

Sorry, double post.

[JMancuso]

Calm down. Where did I say anything about lousy transit? Where did I allude to a bus being not being a transit system? Houston's entire present day commuter system is via bus and it rocks. Austin and SA bus service being excellent is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion.

Furthermore, SA's and Austin's airports serve the region well but don't really compare to HOU and DFW's. 46 flights in one day between those cities isn't all that impressive. Furthermore, the transit in said cities, I would imagine a near majority of people using the airports (besides employees) drive or take a cab.



Alright how many flights go between HOU and DFW, including both major airports of each city.

I just think not initially connecting Texas's two largest and most important metros by HSR will negatively effect usage and perception of how HSR can work in Texas.

i agree. it seems logical these two would have the most travel between the two and are further apart.

[TexasPlaya]

(1) "Furthermore, where are the plans for mass transit upgrades in Austin and SA that will be able to provide support to this HSR." BTW, if that doesn't hint at having lousy transit, what may I ask does?


It hinted that SA and Austin need to step it up, as I wasn't aware previously of any plans for SA, only Austin. Any notion of them having lousy transit was concocted by you.

This is forum and I was just giving my opinion on the matter.

[urbanactivistTX]

So before I play the expected role of "pissed off Houstonian" let me try to look at the bright side of this first...

SNCF is a tried and true expert at HSR. This is so much better IMO than the US having to feel and find out about a system. They come in with cost assumptions because they know exactly what to do. So score one for SNCF and I hope and pray that we agree to this, as it would be a monumental step for all urban Texans.

About Houston and why it's left out... My guess is that SNCF prefers to connect the full Texas triangle as opposed to having a T-bone design. Otherwise I think they would have went with the T-bone plan initially. So what they're trying to do is establish a working relationship with the first leg, and once it's proven a success, they're going to build out the next two. It sucks for Houston to have to wait, but I'd rather see good work done on an initial line than no work at all b/c Houstonians get upset and block it. In fact, I doubt that SNCF's timeframe for HSR is anything like that in the United States... we may be talking a few short years after this line is up and running.

And whoa... at 13.8 billion for the first leg... we could be looking at a full Texas Triangle for under 40 billion!!!!! That's like one fucking month of corporate handouts. It's a shame how little our government cares about transit improvements.

[tonyo]

The French, gov't-run, HSR agency potentially builds rail in Texas - that would be ironic.

[Busy Bee]

beyond

[hammersklavier]

I say shut up and let's see what SNCF is capable of. They've certainly been very successful in France with HSR...if they think they have a good plan going then I say good for them and let's see them actually build it!

Besides, I can already see the marketing SNCF can put into it...

Also, for you people unaware that this is not new, remember that for a time Wisconsin Central operated New Zealand's rail system...

[jtk1519]

The French, gov't-run, HSR agency potentially builds rail in Texas - that would be ironic.

Why? The French have a proven track record running HSR. Our government has a proven track record of.... I'll get back to you when they finally get something right. What SNCF has proposed is perfectly in line with what Texans want... something well thought out and efficient and that will eventually make enough money to run itself without gov. subsidies. If it can support itself, alleviate traffic and provide competition, bring it on.

[philvia]

because cosmopolitan frenchies and gun slinging texans never have gotten along... not sure if anyone is capable of getting along with texans :haha:

[jtk1519]

because cosmopolitan frenchies and gun slinging texans never have gotten along... not sure if anyone is capable of getting along with texans :haha:

Well there was a lot of concern about a French built HSR working it's way into German settled Central Texas. Most just assumed the French would get to Waco and then retreat.

[tonyo]

Why? The French have a proven track record running HSR. Our government has a proven track record of.... I'll get back to you when they finally get something right. What SNCF has proposed is perfectly in line with what Texans want... something well thought out and efficient and that will eventually make enough money to run itself without gov. subsidies. If it can support itself, alleviate traffic and provide competition, bring it on.

The irony, senior Texas, is that the French have been the favorite whipping boy of the dumbass politicans from your state. Think "freedom fries".

The French HSR is heavily subsidized, just like ours. The difference is that they make rail in France a priority and spend much more than we do. Read up on it.

[jtk1519]

Hmmm I thought State Reps from Ohio and N. Carolina made the French their whipping boy during the Freedom Fries.

I think stereotypes of the cheese eatin' surrender monkeys and gun slingin' Texans makes it ironic.

It's laughable at this point. It's like a Family Guy episode only there are people dumb enough to actually believe it. Never mind the fact that Texas has been pushing for HSR for decades, led by Republicans and Democrats alike. Never mind the fact that Texas is the nation's leader in green energy and one of the leaders in new mass transit construction. I swear there are some people who think we ride to work on a horse and shoot our dinner.

And yes, it was Rep. Robert Ney of Ohio and Rep. Walter Jones of North Carolina that proposed the asinine Freedom Fries thing.

[ProTram]

I am going to get some haters from saying this, but I don't care....The French were detrimental in helping us win the American Revolution. Without the assistance of their naval military muscle who knows what would have happened. They can once again be 'instrumental' in helping us by moving our country into the 21st century with a sophisticated rail network. No matter how much the Xenophobics may hate the thought, our two countries benefit from eachother greatly, so bring on the rail proposals.

[mwadswor]

I am going to get some haters from saying this, but I don't care....The French were detrimental in helping us win the American Revolution. Without the assistance of their naval military muscle who knows what would have happened. They can once again be detrimental in helping us by moving our country into the 21st century with a sophisticated rail network. No matter how much the Xenophobics may hate the thought, our two countries benefit from eachother greatly, so bring on the rail proposals.

You're completely correct. But not to be a smartass, but I think you're looking for a word more like instrumental :)

[dl3000]

You're completely correct. But not to be a smartass, but I think you're looking for a word more like instrumental :)

Just what I was thinking.

[ProTram]

oops, I guess I typed it too fast! Freudian Slip. Tomato Potato
:haha:

[tonyo]

It's laughable at this point. It's like a Family Guy episode only there are people dumb enough to actually believe it. Never mind the fact that Texas has been pushing for HSR for decades, led by Republicans and Democrats alike. Never mind the fact that Texas is the nation's leader in green energy and one of the leaders in new mass transit construction. I swear there are some people who think we ride to work on a horse and shoot our dinner.

And yes, it was Rep. Robert Ney of Ohio and Rep. Walter Jones of North Carolina that proposed the asinine Freedom Fries thing.

I see someone who is misguided deleted my and other posts without warning or reason. Let's just say this, your response makes no sense and doesn't address my point. I believe other states have more political will and genuine demand to get HSR accomplished.

[electricron]

I see someone who is misguided deleted my and other posts without warning or reason. Let's just say this, your response makes no sense and doesn't address my point. I believe other states have more political will and genuine demand to get HSR accomplished.

For once, I'm sort of going to agree with you. Texas's relatively low tax rates compared to other states does indicate a somewhat lesser political will to build infrastructure projects at any cost, not just rail but highways too. I believe its only a political stand for more limited role of government. But that is a false impression because the State of Texas is willing to get involved in just about everything.....as long as money isn't directly involved. Texas isn't cutting services as deeply as other states, ie California, because of its past conservative budgeting in the past.

Therefore, I don't agree that Texas has a smaller political will or a smaller demand to get HSR accomplished. Just a tighter pocketbook, which can be loosen somewhat after a political debate on both the advantages and disadvantages of HSR. I believe most Texans would support a PPP with some public financing for HSR. The big question is how much public financing and support is needed? I don't think that target % has been identified.

[ardecila]

I think Texas would undoubtedly support a public-private partnership. It's in line with a conservative economic viewpoint, and it limits state expenditure. Texas is already pretty far ahead in its use of such structures, with the I-69 corridors planned as just such a project.

Unfortunately, there's still the WOW factor when it comes to the cost of this thing. Texans will see $8 billion, or whatever the public share is, and balk.

On the other hand, I think Texas is the most likely place for SNCF to build a line out of the four corridors in the proposal. California and Florida are already pretty far ahead in their own planning, and government in the Midwest has not committed to true high speed rail and the costs that it involves. Midwestern use of PPPs is also very limited - Chicago has leased several city assets, but state governments are far more reluctant. Indiana is the only Midwestern state to privatize highways so far.

[jtk1519]

Unfortunately, there's still the WOW factor when it comes to the cost of this thing. Texans will see $8 billion, or whatever the public share is, and balk.

In the conversations I have had with many people about the SNCF proposal, the proposed cost has been a shock, but not in the way you would think. Virtually everybody I have talked to is shocked the cost estimates are so low. The SNCF proposal estimates total cost at around $14 billion with a 62% public investment (just North of $8.5 billion).

Consider that Dallas' 42 mile light rail expansion will cost somewhere between $3.5 to 4 billion. Houston is spending over $2.5 billion for it's 30 miles worth of new light rail. Hell, the Cowboys just opened a $1.3 billion football stadium, so Texans that are used to seeing numbers like that, look at a 270 or so mile long HSR line for $14 billion as one helluva bargain (and probably too good to be true) and since close to half of the state lives in DFW and Houston, it may not be near as big of a sticker shock as some expect.

Don't get me wrong, the cost is still huge and will meet great resistance, but relative to the preconceived notions about the cost of HSR, the costs in the SNCF proposal may turn out to be more of a selling point than a detriment.

[PartyLine]

So I sifted through all 240 pages of the proposal and pulled out these nuggets...


Expected cost of $13.8 billion broken down as follows...


http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4360/005pf.jpg


Projections are that by 2025 revenues will surpass operating expenses and then begin to pay for the initial capital investment to the extent that only 62% of initial costs will have to come from the public.


http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6317/001bv.jpg


Route would be designed so that speeds of 220mph would be achieved between stops, increasing to 250mph with improvements over time.



SNCF estimates that because of the distance between metros, speeds of 185-220mph are necessary for efficiency.



Based on those speeds, one could travel from Dallas to San Antonio in 1 hour and 50 minutes (currently 4 hours and 17 minutes by auto according to Google maps).


Travel times between stations break down as follows...

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1047/004nr.jpg


The HSR line would be electrified and fully grade separated double track.



200m long trains would carry 500-550 passengers.



Expected start date of 2018 with 3.3 million passengers estimated in the first year of operation, increasing to 12.1 million by 2025. All estimates based on the most conservative of population growth projections.


Benefits would be as follows...

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/238/002mq.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/304/003gn.jpg

Proposed routes...

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5898/81536799.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4161/15859023.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2056/77413995.jpg

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1102/81998732.jpg





Hey what was the link to the website that has the proposal? I wanted to show my dad he was curious about it.

[electricron]

Try http://www.scribd.com/doc/20231126/Rail-Plan

[PartyLine]

Thanks