[Yume-sama]

Congrats! :banana:
http://tsn.ca/story/?id=297438

[SteelTown]

We're gonna get a new stadium!! :D

[Coldrsx]

great to hear, congrats!

[matt602]

This calls for banana's.

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Delirium]

congrats!! their bid video is really good! you see some amazing aerials of downtown.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/video/torontos-pan-am-bid/article1353990/

[Calgarian]

Good for TO! It's not the Olympics, but still pretty damn cool.

[Nicko999]

Congrats to Toronto.:)

[Bedford_DJ]

Congrats T-dot. :tup:

[someone123]

Is there a map/rendering showing the games facilities and where they will be located?

[SteelTown]

http://www.thespec.com/videogallery/668036

Video of the venues.

For Hamilton a new stadium, new velodrome, an aquatic centre and renovation to Copps Coliseum.

[habfanman]

Go Ams! Can't stand those dirty stinkin' Pans..

[Yume-sama]

Looks like Hamilton will benefit greatly from this. :yes:

[SteelTown]

Hamilton actually gets most of the funding from the Pan Am bid, Toronto is mostly renovation.

[Yume-sama]

Why is the stadium only 15,000 seats according to the video? I thought it would be the new CFL stadium... :koko:

[SteelTown]

The government is only willing to fund for a 15,000 stadium, $50 million is needed from the private sector to double it.

Bob Young, Ti Cats owner, will put money towards the stadium and probably naming rights as well. With this stadium Bob Young will now go after a USL franchise for Hamilton.

[NetMapel]

Congrats to Toronto for the win but I have to say that is a horrible bid video. The quick edits and flashes had me wondering what the heck is going on the whole time I watched it.

[WhipperSnapper]

Honestly, I couldn't care less. Perhaps I'd be more excited if it started as a Toronto bid and not just a GTA/Southern Ontario bid that morphed into a Toronto bid.

[Aylmer]

Honestly, I couldn't care less. Perhaps I'd be more excited if it started as a Toronto bid and not just a GTA/Southern Ontario bid that morphed into a Toronto bid.

Someone needs a bit of happy cereal!

This is great for Toronto!
Congrats!

:)

[WhipperSnapper]

I'm just being realistic. What does Toronto get besides an accelerated West Donlands? I also worry this will be held against this city when we try for something on our own.


I congratulate Hamilton and others as this was really their bid.

[frinkprof]

Congrats Toronto/Golden Horseshoe.

Say what you will about these "lesser" games (i.e. not Olympics), but if nothing else, they are a great way to justify getting some needed infrastructure.

Personally, I'm a proponent of more Canadian cities bidding for the Pan-Am Games and Commonwealth Games in the future. For instance, Edmonton's '78 Commonwealth Games gave them a couple great pieces of lasting infrastructure in the LRT and Commonwealth Stadium, and Hamilton will get a new stadium out of these Pan-Am Games. No reason other cities can't do similar.

[Traynor]

Congrats to Toronto for the win but I have to say that is a horrible bid video. The quick edits and flashes had me wondering what the heck is going on the whole time I watched it.

I tend to agree with that... While I was watching, I felt like I was about to have a seizure... And I'm not even epileptic! :slob:

It looked as if it was created by a first-year video arts student.

[SteelTown]

The video above isn't the bid video, that video just highlights all the venues.

Here's the actual bid video
http://www.thestar.com/videozone/722143

[1ajs]

has toronto hosted it befor?

congratz btw

[bnk]

Good for TO

[Urban_Genius]

This is good for the GTA, sporting infrastructure is really lacking in this country and the legacy of these games can only help!

Just an FYI, I believe Winnipeg hosted the games in 1967 and 1999, the only city to have hosted the games in Canada.

[Ayreonaut]

Cool beans!

[shreddog]

Personally, I'm a proponent of more Canadian cities bidding for the Pan-Am Games and Commonwealth Games in the future. For instance, Edmonton's '78 Commonwealth Games gave them a couple great pieces of lasting infrastructure in the LRT and Commonwealth Stadium, and Hamilton will get a new stadium out of these Pan-Am Games. No reason other cities can't do similar.
Let's hope these games are as successful for Toronto and the GTA as they were for Winnipeg!!

[1ajs]

This is good for the GTA, sporting infrastructure is really lacking in this country and the legacy of these games can only help!

Just an FYI, I believe Winnipeg hosted the games in 1967 and 1999, the only city to have hosted the games in Canada.
winnipeg was the only one to host it in canada till this anouncement? interesting would of thought other cdn cities would of had it

[Traynor]

The video above isn't the bid video, that video just highlights all the venues.

Here's the actual bid video
http://www.thestar.com/videozone/722143

I couldn't get that video to play for some reason.

But the video to which I was referring is on this link:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/video...rticle1353990/

[SteelTown]

That's not the bid video, there's a bunch of videos during the presentation, think there's three. That was the introduction to Toronto video.

Try this link, look for the last video, it's 4:14 minutes long.
http://www.toronto2015.org/lang/en/gallery/videos

[rrskylar]

It will be interesting to see what the Feds and Ontario give to these games, the 1999 games in Winnipeg only had a budget of $141 million. Other than a few refurbishments of existing facilities, the construction of a minor league baseball stadium their legacy was not great. These truly are a "B" games if even that.

The Americans sent their "B" team in 1999. No major US networks covered the Games, while newspapers only sent second-string reporters instead and the stories never made front page news. Many high profile athletes, of all nationalities, such as US champion sprinters were in Europe during these Pan Am games, taking part in professional events. South American nations (with the exception of Uruguay) did not send their under-23 male soccer teams after the organizing committee refused to pay appearance money to CONMEBOL.

[rrskylar]

Read this on TSN, surely these numbers are not correct or Manitoba got royally screwed!

"Some have questioned the investment in the two-week Games, which includes $1.4 billion for the sporting event itself and $1 billion for an athletes' village - expected to be turned into a mixed-income neighbourhood serviced by transit.

The federal and provincial governments are each on the hook for 35 per cent of the $1.4 billion, or some $500 million each. Municipalities and private investors will pay the remaining $428.5 million."

This much for an event that no one will bother attending or watching!

[vid]

Now they can say they're a big city!

[SteelTown]

Hamilton gets the most out of that big money bag. Ka-Ching!

[Nicko999]

Now they can say they're a big city!

Olympic Games 1976...:whisper: Can we say we're bigger than them;)

[Nicko999]

Read this on TSN, surely these numbers are not correct or Manitoba got royally screwed!

"Some have questioned the investment in the two-week Games, which includes $1.4 billion for the sporting event itself and $1 billion for an athletes' village - expected to be turned into a mixed-income neighbourhood serviced by transit.

The federal and provincial governments are each on the hook for 35 per cent of the $1.4 billion, or some $500 million each. Municipalities and private investors will pay the remaining $428.5 million."

This much for an event that no one will bother attending or watching!

$2.4 billion total??? It's only the Pan Am games(It's basically the US-Canada-Mexico and a bunch of small countries).

QC and Winnipeg should get money for their arenas if the federal government is willing to give that much.

[SteelTown]

Federal government is giving out only $500 million for the Games.

[shreddog]

Now they can say they're a big city!
As big and happening as the Peg!!!! Well only half really since the Peg has hosted these games twice!!!

That said, Toronto has yet to host the Canada games - something to shot for in 2016?!?!?!

[rrskylar]

^ Don't forget beach volleyball powerhouse Brazil!;) If they even have beach volleyball at the Pan Am games.

I'm just puzzled how an event held in Winnipeg for $141 million in 1999 balloons to $2.4 billion in 16 years, I know there`s inflation but....

[SteelTown]

Beach Volleyball will be held at Exhibition Place in Toronto. Indoor Volleyball at Copps Coliseum.

[Inspector77]

Fabtabulous......I raise a Glass:cheers:

[SteelTown]

I'm just puzzled how an event held in Winnipeg for $141 million in 1999 balloons to $2.4 billion in 16 years, I know there`s inflation but....

A lot of the venues are permanent such as the velodrome, it'll be the only international size velodrome in Canada, the only one is in LA.

They'll also build not one, not two, not three but four Olympic-size pools around the region. Ontario doesn't have a single Olympic-size pool. So you can start to understand why it's a $1.4 billion budget for sporting venues.

[vid]

I thought the Complex pool here was Olympic sized but apparently it is bigger. :shrug:

Has Toronto hosted any large-scale sporting events? I can't think of a single one.

[SteelTown]

Nope, the only large sporting event that took place in Southern Ontario is the 1930 British Empire Games in Hamilton, brought us Ivor Wynne. You can calculate the age of the stadium plus one, 1929.

Toronto/Hamilton region has lost two Olympic bids, two Commonwealth bids and failed on a World Fair bid. Finally some luck.

[shreddog]

Ontario doesn't have a single Olympic-size pool.
Toronto, the GTA and Ontario have numerous Olympic sized pools. (Every city that hosted the Canada games has one as do many Toronto Y's) What has been missing in the past is pools with large stadia - not a big driver to deveopling swimmers. Also, in North York is an Olympic calibre diving facility (again same for all cities that have hosted the Canada games). So nothing new here.

There are two main reasons for the big price delta from Winnipeg - first off Winnipeg mainly revamped the facilities from 67 games and secondly Winnipeg didn't tie a huge urban renewal/athletes village component to their games. Well I guess there is a third reason, how could Toronto do anything that isn't "world class" in nature.

[newflyer]

Congrats to Toronto & Hamilton on winning the Pan AM Games.

It is truely an amazing event ... I was at the 99 Games in Winnipeg, which were the second largest sporting event ever held in Canada, if measured by the number of athletes, after the Montreal Olympics. The sporting events were great, and the nightly Pan American entertainment was amazing... felt a little like Miami for a couple weeks.

Many of the events count towards the qualifiing standing for the Olympic Games and thus does attract many of the worlds best athletes from North and South America. The baseball events caught alot of attention from major media outlets of many nationalities. The Soccer/Football events will surely be a huge event as well.

The budget for the Toronto games is nothing short of impressive. I would have loved to have seen half as much built for the Winnipeg Games, alas all Winnipeg got was a bunch of retro fits and one million dollars towards a minor league baseball park. I really think Winnipeg was robbed when it came to funding of its games, but thats all in the past. Here is hoping that Toronto is caught up in all the excitement of the games as Winnipeg was 10 years ago.

[realcity]

$2.4 billion total??? It's only the Pan Am games(It's basically the US-Canada-Mexico and a bunch of small countries).

Brazil is a small country?

[Bigtime]

Olympic Games 1976...:whisper: Can we say we're bigger than them;)

Calgary can say we are slightly bigger also on account of the '88 Winter Olympics... ;)

[waterloowarrior]

^ Don't forget beach volleyball powerhouse Brazil!;) If they even have beach volleyball at the Pan Am games.

I'm just puzzled how an event held in Winnipeg for $141 million in 1999 balloons to $2.4 billion in 16 years, I know there`s inflation but....

glen Murray was on CBC radio and said part of the reason it was so cheap is that it was the second time they'd held the games so they already had most of the facilities.

[jmt18325]

Toronto's will be far more impressive also.

[drew]

A lot of the venues are permanent such as the velodrome, it'll be the only international size velodrome in Canada, the only one is in LA.

They'll also build not one, not two, not three but four Olympic-size pools around the region. Ontario doesn't have a single Olympic-size pool. So you can start to understand why it's a $1.4 billion budget for sporting venues.

I am shocked that Ontario doesn't have at least ONE Olympic sized pool?! It's no wonder our international swimming programs pale in comparison to other countries, if our most populated province/city don't have the proper facilities.

Congrats to Toronto, and awesome that Hamilton gets a new stadium!

[Nicko999]

Brazil is a small country?

Sorry, I forgot about Brazil!

[Rico Rommheim]

$2.4 billion total??? It's only the Pan Am games(It's basically the US-Canada-Mexico and a bunch of small countries).



and other countries with larger populations than Canada...like Argentina and Colombia...

[habfanman]

$2.4 billion total??? It's only the Pan Am games(It's basically the US-Canada-Mexico and a bunch of small countries).

QC and Winnipeg should get money for their arenas if the federal government is willing to give that much.

Nicko, Canada will be fighting Brazil for 3rd in the medal count. The U.S. will take the bulk of the medals followed by Cuba. Mexico will probably finish 5th-6th.

[Nicko999]

and other countries with larger populations than Canada...like Argentina and Colombia...

Yea, but we have better athletes:P

[Nicko999]

Nicko, Canada will be fighting Brazil for 3rd in the medal count. The U.S. will take the bulk of the medals followed by Cuba. Mexico will probably finish 5th-6th.

Cuba is one hell of a country! Their population is around 11M but they have more medals than us.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/80/scr1257622064.png

[habfanman]

I am shocked that Ontario doesn't have at least ONE Olympic sized pool?! It's no wonder our international swimming programs pale in comparison to other countries, if our most populated province/city don't have the proper facilities.

Congrats to Toronto, and awesome that Hamilton gets a new stadium!

There are plenty if Olympic sized pools but no Olympic caliber aquatic centres. Toronto has the Olympium in Etobicoke (which is falling apart and has a habit of emptying itself due to leaks) and U of T, which is inadequate even for the University. A proper Olympic aquatic centre must have an absolute minimum of 2, 50 metre pools and a diving pool, as well as dryland training, therapy facilities etc. The new centres at UT Scarborough, Markham, Hamilton and the refurbishment of the Olympium are long overdue.

[habfanman]

http://www.thespec.com/videogallery/668036

For Hamilton a new stadium, new velodrome, an aquatic centre and renovation to Copps Coliseum.

The velodrome will be sweet! There are only 2 indoor velodromes in Canada, Burnaby and London, but they don't meet the 250m Olympic standard. Sports wise, the velodrome is the most impressive facility.. next to the stadium of course!

[caltrane74]

maybe we will get some new lrt lines and some new subway lines....

The ones we have planned should be completed by then though...

[SteelTown]

The velodrome will be sweet! There are only 2 indoor velodromes in Canada, Burnaby and London, but they don't meet the 250m Olympic standard. Sports wise, the velodrome is the most impressive facility.. next to the stadium of course!

It'll be the only international size velodrome in Canada, only LA has one. So it'll be a hugely important venue to attract athletes all over Canada and USA.

[habfanman]

maybe we will get some new lrt lines and some new subway lines....

The ones we have planned should be completed by then though...

I wouldn't hold my breath for the subway, they've been talking about the Downtown Relief Line since I lived in TO in the 80's and they just shelved study #1,872 due to the TTC budget shortfall.

If the St. Clair ROW fiasco is any indication, they'll be laying the last rails on the Malvern LRT the night of the opening ceremonies!

[matt602]

maybe we will get some new lrt lines and some new subway lines....

The ones we have planned should be completed by then though...

This will definitely be happening. A lot of the proposed Transit City upgrades are going to get pushed through quick to meet the deadline.

Hamilton is also going to have it's Rapid Transit program sped through.

[bob1954]

Good for Toronto!!

[bornagainbiking]

West Jet moved their hub from Hamilton Airport to Pearson and the number of flights dropped drastically.
When the games come and you want to gain cheaper accomodations Hamilton may be the better bet as there are still daily flights into Hamilton, and a city bus straight to the downtown (30 mins) from there there are regular GO service to Toronto. It is only an hr to Toronto by train.:cheers: :cheers:

[Rumors]

Congrats guys. :cheers:

[JuelzJones]

Something really needs to happen with Hamilton...it's very ugly and wayyyyyyyyyy too many one way streets.

[vid]

Great post. Succinct and on topic. Bravo!

[JuelzJones]

Hey i'm just speaking the truth, it's like a rundown version of Kitchener.

[flar]

Parts of Hamilton are rundown and there are too many one way streets, but c'mon, it's has absolutely nothing in common with Kitchener.

[kitchener-lrt]

Parts of Hamilton are rundown and there are too many one way streets, but c'mon, it's has absolutely nothing in common with Kitchener.

Thanks for the compliment :P .

[flar]

Thanks for the compliment :P .

You misread me, I meant it more as in Kitchener is not like this ;)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/segaert/nighthammer/00172.jpg

[SteelTown]

With the 2015 Pan Am Games it'll bring LRT to Hamilton. King and Main will go from one way street to two way street and LRT all along King St.

The entire West Harbourfront will undergo massive brownfield cleanup, there'll be a huge transformation within a few years thanks to this 2015 Pan Am Games that brings a deadline of July 10 2015 for everything. The deadline will put pressure on the federal, provincial and local government to meet the deadline.

[Only The Lonely..]

^ Don't forget beach volleyball powerhouse Brazil!;) If they even have beach volleyball at the Pan Am games.

I'm just puzzled how an event held in Winnipeg for $141 million in 1999 balloons to $2.4 billion in 16 years, I know there`s inflation but....

I TOTALLY AGREE!

Why do we have to wait for these stupid games before the government decides to finally invest much needed $$$ in our cities?

Whether it be the Olympics, Pan Am or Commonwealth games, the only real reason why any city bothers to host these events is for the built 'legacy' that lasts in the years that follow.

The actual Pan Am games themself are pretty unremarkable.

I say that if the GTA is lacking in olympic sized pools, stadiums, or mass transit, why not just build it without the hassle of catering to some international amateur sporting body.

Ditto for Vancouver.

[trueviking]

"Some have questioned the investment in the two-week Games, which includes $1.4 billion for the sporting event itself and $1 billion for an athletes' village - expected to be turned into a mixed-income neighbourhood serviced by transit.


a billion dollars for an athletes village?....seriously?.....for the pan amateur games?.....i think the athletes were billeted in people's houses when the games were in winnipeg....maybe some were at the student residences at the u of m....there was certainly nothing specifically built for them.

i am surprised a city like toronto would have any interest in the pan am games....i would think they would be above such a low calibre event....they seriously are a bush league games....hopefully they leave a legacy at least...a new cfl venue in hamilton would be worthwhile.

rio hosted them and then got the olympics, so maybe that is what they are hoping...a big waste of money if you ask me.

winnipeg should retroactively ask for transit money.

[isaidso]

a billion dollars for an athletes village?....seriously?.....for the pan amateur games?.....i think the athletes were billeted in people's houses when the games were in winnipeg....maybe some were at the student residences at the u of m....there was certainly nothing specifically built for them.

i am surprised a city like toronto would have any interest in the pan am games....i would think they would be above such a low calibre event....they seriously are a bush league games....hopefully they leave a legacy at least...a new cfl venue in hamilton would be worthwhile.

rio hosted them and then got the olympics, so maybe that is what they are hoping...a big waste of money if you ask me.

winnipeg should retroactively ask for transit money.

Toronto needs the residential regardless of the Pan American Games. This way they get both demands filled. It's an huge opportunity to get this done while getting the government to pay for much of it. Waste of money? Not for Toronto it's not.

It's very true that Torontonians thumb their nose at almost everything unless it's global is scope or American. Toronto bidding for this lesser event fit the bill on a number of fronts though. There is a shocking lack of athletic infrastructure in Toronto, a desire to develop the East Bayfront where the athlete's village will be, and a need to fast track other plans that are still sitting on the drawing board.

Beyond this, it's seen as a stepping stone to landing the big prize: the summer Olympics. Notice that the athletic stadium is going to Hamilton! Torontonians are largely indifferent to this event, but wrapped it up as a Toronto bid to win.

[habfanman]

Toronto needs the residential regardless of the Pan American Games. This way they get both demands filled. It's an huge opportunity to get this done while getting the government to pay for much of it. Waste of money? Not for Toronto it's not.

It's very true that Torontonians thumb their nose at almost everything unless it's global is scope or American. Toronto bidding for this lesser event fit the bill on a number of fronts though. There is a shocking lack of athletic infrastructure in Toronto, a desire to develop the East Bayfront where the athlete's village will be, and a need to fast track other plans that are still sitting on the drawing board.

Beyond this, it's seen as a stepping stone to landing the big prize: the summer Olympics. Notice that the athletic stadium is going to Hamilton! Torontonians are largely indifferent to this event, but wrapped it up as a Toronto bid to win.

If anything, the Pan Ams will kill any potential Olympic bid for a long time. Virtually none of the facilities being built will count towards an Olympic games and after the inevitable controversies, delays and cost overruns, Toronto taxpayers will scream "NO!!" at the first person who so much as mentions the words "Olympic" and "bid" in the same sentence!

Take the overpriced pools and condos as consolation- they're sorely needed. (well.. not the condos)

This is from Feb 2006 but since nothing has been done since then (note that everything promised for 2008 has quietly slipped into oblivion), it applies now more than ever:

Toronto lacking facilities for elite olympic athletes

By ROB GRANATSTEIN, CITY HALL BUREAU
www.torontosun.com

The absence of Toronto athletes from the Olympic Games -- never mind the winner's podium -- comes as no shock to sports leaders in this city.
"It's sad," said Brenda Librecz, general manager of parks and recreation. "But we're not surprised at all."
Librecz said for both summer and winter sports, Toronto doesn't have venues for training elite athletes.
"We're good at the playground level," Librecz said. "But not very good to the podium.
"Once you start moving a little bit ahead you have to leave Toronto," Librecz said.
That's shown up in Turin. North York freestyle skiier Veronika Bauer and Richmond Hill figure skater Emanuel Sandhu are the only two GTA athletes, outside of hockey, at the Olympics.
Bauer called Toronto's facilities the worst in Canada.
Ontario isn't blessed with Olympic-calibre mountains, but it also doesn't have a speed skating oval.
Toronto only has two 50-metre pools -- one leaking, the other, at the U of T, largely for the university.
City arenas are an average of 35 years old. New ones aren't in the works. There is $200 million worth of outstanding repair work.
"If you want to get into Olympic sports, you have to move from Toronto," Canadian Olympic Committee president Chris Rudge told the Sun's Steve Simmons.
Mayor David Miller wasn't willing to agree with Rudge.
"Chris Rudge should know better," Miller said yesterday. "He should know about the work we're doing to bring together all of Toronto's sports infrastructure. It would be nice to see the COC step up to the plate and be part of the solution."
New facilities are on the way. The $27-million Western Beaches Watercourse, under construction, will provide a training area for rowing, kayaking and Dragon Boating (not an Olympic sport).
There is a new soccer stadium at Exhibition Place, and fields are being prepared in the Portlands for soccer, lacrosse and field hockey, to be ready by 2008.

A Portlands indoor sports complex is in the plans -- that could have a speed skating oval -- and is supposed to be ready by March 2008.
The city is improving the track at Birchmount Stadium and updating some arenas.
Still, Karen Pitre, chair of the Toronto Sports Council, said the need for sport infrastructure is desperate.
"There's nothing here," she said. "The athletes all move to Calgary."
There isn't one multi-pad arena, elite-level gym or field or 50-metre pool east of Yonge St., Pitre said.
"You have a local park and a local arena," she said. "You just can't use it because all the better-organized sports push you out."
The provincial and federal governments need to step up and build the bigger regional-type facilities, Pitre said.
The new world-class soccer stadium is good, Pitre said, and Toronto has the Air Canada Centre, Rogers Centre and Rexall Centre. But the city is weak in premier public facilities and places for house leagues.
"If we can't accommodate kids who want to play house league, you turn them off sport before they even begin and that's a crime itself," she said.

[MonkeyRonin]

(well.. not the condos)

So, instead of housing a rapidly growing population in high-density inner-city condos & apartments (replacing derelict industrial areas that are blight on the built form, at that), would building over more farm land with more awful tract houses on the edge of the city be preferable? :rolleyes: (while at the same time increasing the inaffordability of the inner-city due to the inventory of housing not keeping up with demand)

[WhipperSnapper]

It's evident Habsfan has some issues in regards to our city so no sense in feeding him.

a billion dollars for an athletes village?....seriously?.....for the pan amateur games?.....i think the athletes were billeted in people's houses when the games were in winnipeg....maybe some were at the student residences at the u of m....there was certainly nothing specifically built for them.


I think you're possibly confused. The billion dollars isn't being used to built housing specifically for atheles. It's being used to build market and non-market housing to temporarily house the atheletes. There is no reason why the governments wouldn't profit from the sale of the market housing.

[habfanman]

So, instead of housing a rapidly growing population in high-density inner-city condos & apartments (replacing derelict industrial areas that are blight on the built form, at that), would building over more farm land with more awful tract houses on the edge of the city be preferable? :rolleyes: (while at the same time increasing the inaffordability of the inner-city due to the inventory of housing not keeping up with demand)

Yes, but the vast majority of the rapid growth is occurring in the GTA, and what happened to all the promises of building great public spaces and amenities? An energy plant? A fenced-off, white elephant film studio? Corus, that would look perfectly at home in a Vaughan industrial park? They were supposed to have learned from the mistakes made on the central waterfront. Instead, it's being slowly eaten up by the same-old, same-old: private development with token public bits inserted in the leftover spaces; more unaffordable yuppiefront with little strips of 'public' walkway between the condos with nothing that anyone will want to walk to.

[niwell]

^Those things are in Employment Areas. Do I need to spell it out for you? Should I list some relevant policy documents?

Not every bit of the waterfront should be a park. Well, I guess some people believe that but don't have any clue of the economic reality Toronto is facing in terms of employment creation and retention.

[habfanman]

^Those things are in Employment Areas. Do I need to spell it out for you? Should I list some relevant policy documents?

Not every bit of the waterfront should be a park. Well, I guess some people believe that but don't have any clue of the economic reality Toronto is facing in terms of employment creation and retention.

Sure, list all the policy documents you want. We can have a good laugh 30 years from now when we see how little they resemble the actual deveopment that was put in place.

Not all the waterfront can be parkland as is evidenced by the little hodge podge bits that are currently there, but shouldn't the last remainig bit have a large public component that is set aside for all citizens and not just those who can afford to buy into it? Chicago did it with Millenium Park and I'm pretty sure that they face realities similar to those of Toronto. I don't see condos and employment zones in Millenium Park.

[habfanman]

It's evident Habsfan has some issues in regards to our city so no sense in feeding him.

I think you're possibly confused. The billion dollars isn't being used to built housing specifically for atheles. It's being used to build market and non-market housing to temporarily house the atheletes. There is no reason why the governments wouldn't profit from the sale of the market housing.

Toronto used to be my city too and my only "issue" is with Montrealers who want to follow the same development patterns without thinking of the repercussions.

How much would you like to bet that when the bills for the Pan Ams start coming in and the lack of tangible benefits become apparent, the non-market housing- one of the main benefits touted by the proponents- will be dropped à la Vancouver Olympic Village?

[niwell]

There are HUGE historical differences between Toronto and Chicago in terms of waterfront development. Without getting into it in any level of detail Chicago always intended its waterfront to be public with the bulk of industry located inland along the river. Toronto's direct waterfront was industrial and the remaining built form reflects that.

For the record I'm not referring to the pretty pictures that show mixed use communities in the Port Lands. I think those are a pipe dream and nothing more. In my mind everything East of Redpath should be reserved for employment uses, and in this context Corus is actually quite important. The recent enactment of a Port Lands CIP seems to reflect this future despite whatever renderings are released by various groups. By definition Employment Areas really aught not to have large public components (in this case the southern fringe of the port lands might be the exception) due to the detrimental effect sensitive land uses have on industry.

The result might not be pretty, but quite frankly the Eastern waterfront and Port Lands are a bit out of the way and are not the best location for a major public space. There is still quite a lot that can be done with the central waterfront (the wavedecks for instance have proved quite successful) and in my mind it isn't half as bad as many make it out to be. Particularly when you consider the history of the area and what was there to begin with.


I guess what it comes down to is that I don't understand this obsession with the waterfront in Toronto. With the notable exception of the Island, Beach and the far western communities Toronto has never really been "about" the lake in the same way Chicago has. Not entirely sure why this is an awful thing, but then again I don't understand why people pay more to look at water.

[Mister F]

Sure, list all the policy documents you want. We can have a good laugh 30 years from now when we see how little they resemble the actual deveopment that was put in place.

Not all the waterfront can be parkland as is evidenced by the little hodge podge bits that are currently there, but shouldn't the last remainig bit have a large public component that is set aside for all citizens and not just those who can afford to buy into it? Chicago did it with Millenium Park and I'm pretty sure that they face realities similar to those of Toronto. I don't see condos and employment zones in Millenium Park.
That's like saying you don't see condos and employment zones in hTO Park. Chicago has condos and employment just as close to the water as Toronto - look north of Grant Park.

[habfanman]

That's like saying you don't see condos and employment zones in hTO Park. Chicago has condos and employment just as close to the water as Toronto - look north of Grant Park.

HtO park is a tiny speck compared to Millenium Park and it's surrounded by condos and parking lots. It's better than what was there before but it's too small to be of much use for anything interesting.

Grant Park is connected to Millenium Park making for one huge public space, not a series of little gimmicky bits inserted between hotels and condos.

[niwell]

For what it's worth Millennium Park has been criticized by the Project for Public Spaces as failing to act as a cohesive public space. Yes it's beautiful and a great place to be, but falls into the trap of thinking public space = design. Too compartmentalized and focuses design elements as opposed to interaction of people.

You don't need a huge park to have a functioning public space. Some of the best public spaces are ad-hoc and don't need award winning design. Especially given that the island (which is a huge public space) is so close by I'm not sure why the central waterfront needs a huge park. Aside from being able to say there is a big park would it really be in the best interests of the population? If there aren't dwellings on the waterfront who is going to make the trek there? Also there's the trick that a smaller space with x number of people will be a much more lively and attractive space than a much larger space with the same (or even slightly more) people.

To put it another way would it be in Toronto's best interest to use limited funds to expropriate large amounts of fairly expensive property? There's a lot more to it than just saying: "hey, we should have a big ass waterfront park!".

[Brandon716]

I didn't comment on this particular thread, its great news for Toronto overall.

[habfanman]

There are HUGE historical differences between Toronto and Chicago in terms of waterfront development. Without getting into it in any level of detail Chicago always intended its waterfront to be public with the bulk of industry located inland along the river. Toronto's direct waterfront was industrial and the remaining built form reflects that.

For the record I'm not referring to the pretty pictures that show mixed use communities in the Port Lands. I think those are a pipe dream and nothing more. In my mind everything East of Redpath should be reserved for employment uses, and in this context Corus is actually quite important. The recent enactment of a Port Lands CIP seems to reflect this future despite whatever renderings are released by various groups. By definition Employment Areas really aught not to have large public components (in this case the southern fringe of the port lands might be the exception) due to the detrimental effect sensitive land uses have on industry.

The result might not be pretty, but quite frankly the Eastern waterfront and Port Lands are a bit out of the way and are not the best location for a major public space. There is still quite a lot that can be done with the central waterfront (the wavedecks for instance have proved quite successful) and in my mind it isn't half as bad as many make it out to be. Particularly when you consider the history of the area and what was there to begin with.


I guess what it comes down to is that I don't understand this obsession with the waterfront in Toronto. With the notable exception of the Island, Beach and the far western communities Toronto has never really been "about" the lake in the same way Chicago has. Not entirely sure why this is an awful thing, but then again I don't understand why people pay more to look at water.

Niwell, the Millenium Park site consisted of train tracks and parking lots before it was transformed. I'm sure that Chicago could have easily sold the land to developers for top dollar but they didn't, they had enough vision to set it aside and create something unique for its citizens to enjoy for all time.

The wavedecks are successful because in the areas where they were installed, the waterfront consisted of the sidewalk and nothing else. It's like taking a crowded one lane street, expanding it to two lanes and calling it a success because it's instantly filled with traffic. The wavedecks essentially doubled the size of the sidewalk.

The Montréal waterfront was an industrial zone well into the 70's and there was intense pressure in the 60's, 70's and 80's to build a Gardiner-like monstrosity along rue de la Commune and condos along the water as well as on the island park, Parc Jean-Drapeau. Fortunately, the entire central portion bordering Old Montréal and the Islands were redeveloped as a 100% public space and the City can run any type of event imaginable without worrying about noise and disturbance complaints from yuppie condo owners.

Personally, I don't care what Toronto does with its waterfront. I stopped caring when I lived there and realised that developers could do pretty much as they pleased while the rest of us were stuck with 30 year plans; plans that were always subject to 'The Compromise', 'The Cheapening' and 'The Last Minute Redesign'.. if they ever got off the ground at all. My only concern is for Montrealers who, distracted by large shiny things, look to Toronto-style development as a positive, when I see it as something to be avoided.

[habfanman]

For what it's worth Millennium Park has been criticized by the Project for Public Spaces as failing to act as a cohesive public space. Yes it's beautiful and a great place to be, but falls into the trap of thinking public space = design. Too compartmentalized and focuses design elements as opposed to interaction of people.

You don't need a huge park to have a functioning public space. Some of the best public spaces are ad-hoc and don't need award winning design. Especially given that the island (which is a huge public space) is so close by I'm not sure why the central waterfront needs a huge park. Aside from being able to say there is a big park would it really be in the best interests of the population? If there aren't dwellings on the waterfront who is going to make the trek there? Also there's the trick that a smaller space with x number of people will be a much more lively and attractive space than a much larger space with the same (or even slightly more) people.

To put it another way would it be in Toronto's best interest to use limited funds to expropriate large amounts of fairly expensive property? There's a lot more to it than just saying: "hey, we should have a big ass waterfront park!".

While I don't particularly like the design of Millenium Park, I admire the fact that they kept it public and didn't simply build over it. It has some great features as well as some gimmicky, overdesigned features, but individual opinions will differ as to which is which. I much prefer Grant Park.

[niwell]

Niwell, the Millenium Park site consisted of train tracks and parking lots before it was transformed. I'm sure that Chicago could have easily sold the land to developers for top dollar but they didn't, they had enough vision to set it aside and create something unique for its citizens to enjoy for all time.

....
I stopped caring when I lived there and realised that developers could do pretty much as they pleased while the rest of us were stuck with 30 year plans; plans that were always subject to 'The Compromise', 'The Cheapening' and 'The Last Minute Redesign'.. if they ever got off the ground at all. My only concern is for Montrealers who, distracted by large shiny things, look to Toronto-style development as a positive, when I see it as something to be avoided.

I'm aware of what was there before Millennium but there were large swaths of existing park to the south as a result of city policy right from the get-go.

I will agree with you about thinking any form of (tall) development is positive, as that's clearly not the case. I personally don't care too much about the condoization of a waterfront that nobody has ever cared about, but the huge amounts of residential development on former industrial lands are immensely damaging to the city from an economic standpoint.

While I don't particularly like the design of Millenium Park, I admire the fact that they kept it public and didn't simply build over it. It has some great features as well as some gimmicky, overdesigned features, but individual opinions will differ as to which is which. I much prefer Grant Park.

Agreed. The closest similarity in Toronto would actually be the railyards where the roundhouse is now. That land is actually mostly public. The actual waterfront was privately owned. I haven't looked into it but I wouldn't be surprised if much of it was bought up by numbered corporations (read: developers) long ago.

It's helpful to look into why exactly such things are allowed to happen though. Planning in Chicago and (to a lesser extent) Montreal is a very different beast than the convoluted powerless version that the City of Toronto has to deal with. Everything is driven by exacting interpretations of policy and the fear of lengthy and costly OMB hearings. Unfortunately councilors and community groups don't necessarily understand this and the situation often devolves into an expensive clusterfuck. Sometimes I really wish it worked like in Chicago, where if Daley says it goes, it goes.


In any event this is very off-topic. As for the Pan-Am games I think it's great that Toronto got them because it will mean some useful projects will go forward on the Province's bill. Namely the Scarborough Malvern LRT line and a kickstart to the Lower Donlands, one of the few areas of the waterfront I am happy to see go to mixed use.

[Mister F]

HtO park is a tiny speck compared to Millenium Park and it's surrounded by condos and parking lots. It's better than what was there before but it's too small to be of much use for anything interesting.

Grant Park is connected to Millenium Park making for one huge public space, not a series of little gimmicky bits inserted between hotels and condos.
My point was that you don't find condo towers in the middle of public parks in Toronto as you implied. Again, look north of Grant Park, where much of Chicago's downtown is. The waterfront there consists of condo towers, a highway, and a concrete strip you can walk on.

Niwell, the Millenium Park site consisted of train tracks and parking lots before it was transformed. I'm sure that Chicago could have easily sold the land to developers for top dollar but they didn't, they had enough vision to set it aside and create something unique for its citizens to enjoy for all time.
The city didn't sell the land to developers because it never belonged to the city in the first place. It belonged to the railways.

In Toronto the actual waterfront (the south side of Queen's Quay) is publicly owned and there hasn't been a condo tower built there in decades. High rises are only built on the north side, which is mostly private. You'll find the same development pattern in Chicago, New York, Singapore, Sydney, etc.