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dennis1
Aug 3, 2010, 11:52 PM
August 2, 2010

By Hand

Mayor Fred Eisenberger
Hamilton City Hall
71 Main Street West
Hamilton, ON L8N 3J5

Subject: Building Our City Together

Dear Fred,
Over the course of the past six months, the Hamilton Tiger Cat Football Club has endeavoured to undertake a comprehensive review of all of the potential stadium sites within the City that met our fundamental criteria as it pertains to parking, highway visibility, and ease of access and egress for our fans.
As you know, we have retained a number of experts to assist us with our analysis. We have shared those findings with you, City officials, and your colleagues. I think that you would agree that this has been helpful to everyone in understanding the business dynamics of operating a CFL franchise in our market.
Conversely, it goes without saying that Bob Young and our organization are grateful for the information that we have received from the City, prior to and throughout the facilitation process with Michael Fenn. It has elevated our understanding of the objectives of the city, particularly as it pertains to the essential challenge of revitalizing the North End of Hamilton.
While the aforementioned business issues regarding parking, access, and highway are of vital concern to us, it is gratifying to know that the Province of Ontario will provide for a GO station at LIUNA as well as one at Centennial, regardless of the location of the Pan Am stadium. By every measure, this is a very good thing for the City.
Throughout our research into possible stadium sites in the North End, and specifically, the proposed Rheem site at 128 Barton Street, we have encountered a number of concerns from local residents, planners, as well as local lawyer, Herman Turkstra.
These concerns pertain directly to the advisability of siting a 30,000 person stadium within a residential community. We have taken it upon ourselves to review the relevant planning documents upon which the City would rely to permit the siting of the Pan Am Stadium. We reviewed City planning documents back to 1995, when the notion of a stadium in the North End was specifically rejected after a great deal of public consultation. You, yourself were a member of that Council, as were Councillors Morelli, Jackson and Collins.
The existing City of Hamilton Official plan adopted in June of 2005, and in force today, does not permit the siting of stadiums on subject lands.
Given the unforgiving timelines facing Hostco, and the Pan American Games Committee, and the necessity to be precise in the planning process, the Hamilton Tiger Cats retained Mr. Peter Walker FCIP, RPP of the firm Walker, Nott, Dragicevic Associates Limited to obtain an independent opinion pertaining to land use designations for the 128 Barton Street site (the Rheem site). Mr. Walker enjoys an enviable reputation as one of the pre-eminent planners in Ontario.
I am enclosing a copy of Mr. Walker's interim opinion in its entirety for you and the members of Council. The Report is very clear. To quote Mr. Walker's Conclusion:
"Based upon the foregoing, development of a major sports stadium focused on the subject property, at the very least, would warrant an Official Plan amendment application to amend either the existing or adopted planning documents. Such an application would require extensive supportive rationale (reports/studies) and involve major public consultation under the Planning Act, given the planning process that the city has pursued to-date. Such an application would also be subject to appeals to the OMB by parties who did not agree with such City Actions."
This opinion is consistent with the professional opinion advanced by local lawyer Herman Turkstra who represents area residents within the North End community. The opinion of Mr. Walker also carefully reflects the stated and adopted planning direction expressed in Setting Sail West Harbour Secondary Plan (OPA 198) (Schedule M-2 "Special Policy Area" - Barton Tiffany).
It may well be that your own legal department and expert planners have turned their minds to the prospect of OMB appeals on the Official Plan Amendments, that appear to be vital precursors to the development of a 30,000 person stadium on the Rheem site.
It is not for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats to comment about the prospect of success one way or the other at the OMB. The essential point that must be considered with some sense of urgency is the fact that the reality of OMB appeals on the West Harbour site negates its viability for the Pan Am Stadium. Simply put, the planning, public consultation process, OMB hearing and determination process will take a great deal of time and there is no real ability by Council, or the Tiger-Cats, to make any determination of the outcome.
The West Harbour Stadium site purports to support the remediation and re-development of the West Harbour lands in a manner that is frankly not contemplated in the City's Setting Sail planning document.
The Tiger-Cats share your vision about optimizing our Harbour to the benefit of the greater community. That process has been underway for many years. Your colleague, Chad Collins, and others have played a leadership role in making the West Harbour and other "harbour" lands a people place. Your Council wisely approved the Setting Sail document which is in fact a "blueprint" for forward thinking development in that community based upon an intelligent mix of housing, community development, and recreational use. Ironically, those improvements are underway, block by block and neighbourhood by neighbourhood.
The Setting Sail document which the City has submitted to the Province for approval will provide long term, sustainable commercial benefits for small business in the North End, 365 days per year, not simply around Tiger-Cat Games and other occasional use. Surely, this is the form of development contemplated in the Urban Hamilton Official Plan describing the subject lands as "Neighbourhoods".
Fred, I hope you would agree that the proposed compromise Alternative West Harbour Vision tabled by the Hamilton Tiger-Cats would go a long way in making the West Harbour a “people place.”
Working together, we believe that a 3,500 person amphitheatre would create a more sustainable venue for a much longer period of time during the year. It would be our hope that it would not contravene the spirit of your Setting Sail planning document.
The Tiger-Cats are prepared to contribute $1.5 million in capital as well as $100,000 per year in support to make this project a reality.
Fred, the stadium debate has been needlessly divisive. I hope that you would agree with me that it is time for the Tiger-Cats and the City to set aside our differences and begin the necessary work of building a sustainable legacy stadium on the East Mountain.
Of equal importance is the need for all of us to work together to realize the true potential of the West Harbour.
I want to assure you and Council that the Hamilton Tiger-Cats will work with you on this vital City Building opportunity.

Sincerely
HAMILTON TIGER-CATS FOOTBALL (2007) CORP.
Scott Mitchell
President


cc Members of Council
Premier Dalton McGuinty
Hon. Sophia Aggelonitis, MP
Ted McMeekin, MPP
Andrea Horwath, MP
Paul Miller, MP
Senator David Braley
Michael Fenn
Ian Troop
Hon. David Peterson
Mark Cohon
Jamie Rilet

one last beg.

Anders Knudsen
Aug 4, 2010, 12:15 AM
They must think Chad Collins is a swing vote, by calling him out like that - even though Bob Young must hate him for vetoing Confederation Park. Still it's sad they won't offer more than a pittance - just pay for the remediation and I'd bet this would actually count for something.

Berklon
Aug 4, 2010, 12:17 AM
So what are you saying, downtown Hamilton and the West Harbour will only be redeveloped and revitalized if there's a stadium built there? I beg to differ. All we need to do is stick to the plan. A big-money mega-project has never been a panacea, and it isn't gojng to be here either.

The stadium is just one variable to the redevelopment (and it could be more heavily weighted than some of the other variables) - especially for the West Harbour itself.

Imagine any successful downtown of a city roughly the size of Hamilton - now take 5 attractions of that downtown and move them to different extreme ends of the city. You now have a much weaker downtown while at the same time each of those attractions don't draw as many people because there isn't as much traffic and they're each less convenient for people to attend. You can look at it as being spread too thin across the city... or another way would be the "together we stand, divided we fall" kind of scenario.

I have yet to have this simple question answered... what exactly does this city gain by having a stadium in the East Mountain other than the fact that there'll be a stadium in the East Mountain? It's a missed opportunity.

A stadium doesn't get built very often - the last thing we need is to waste it by putting it an area like the East Mountain. We've already seen many cities regret their decision to build stadiums/arenas so far away from the downtown area. It's better to learn from someone else's mistake than it is to learn from your own.

dennis1
Aug 4, 2010, 4:20 AM
Bob Young is now trying to bribe the city with 100k a year? Patheic.

SteelTown
Aug 4, 2010, 11:07 AM
Mayor dismisses Ticat view of zoning issues at harbour site

August 04, 2010
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/819644

Planning hurdles at the city's favoured west harbour stadium site mean city hall should get behind the Tiger-Cats east Mountain location, the football club is urging Mayor Fred Eisenberger.

The mayor says, however, there is no "legal impediment" for building the stadium at the west harbour and he expressed concern about the club's tactics in pushing its preferred location.

A letter from Ticat president Scott Mitchell says expert planning advice sought out by the team shows the city would require a major amendment to the city's official plan to build a Pan Am stadium.

Toronto consultant Peter Walker advised the Tiger-Cats an application to change the zoning at the Bay and Tiffany streets location "would require extensive supportive rational (reports/studies)" and would also be subject to appeals to the Ontario Municipal Board.

Mitchell wrote the club came across concerns by residents, planners and local lawyer Herman Turkstra when it researched the west harbour area.

His letter said the stadium debate was "needlessly divisive" and added that given unforgiving timelines imposed by Pan Am organizers, "it is time for the Tiger-Cats and the city to set aside differences and begin the necessary work of building a sustainable legacy stadium on the east Mountain."

In a statement, Eisenberger called the comment by Walker "an opinion" and said the matter has been examined thoroughly by city planning staff and legal division.

"Indeed, good planning backed by extensive independent reports including the IBI Group have confirmed that this is the best site for the City of Hamilton," the mayor said.

He agreed with Mitchell's comment the debate is needlessly divisive, but believed the Tiger-Cats preference to negotiate through the media is adding to the divisiveness. He noted Mitchell and his staff met with city officials yesterday "and did not offer any indication that yet another salvo was about to be delivered later this same day."

The Tiger-Cat letter had a conciliatory tone, noting club owner Bob Young and the organization were grateful for information provided by the city, especially in terms of "the essential challenge of revitalizing the north end of Hamilton."

SteelTown
Aug 4, 2010, 11:19 AM
LINE DRIVE
The stadium fight has moved to the parking lot. The Ticats vow to pay for thousands of east Mountain spots, and the city says it has more room for cars near the west harbour.

August 04, 2010
Emma Reilly
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/819691

The Tiger-Cats are offering to foot the bill for upwards of 6,000 parking spots at the east Mountain stadium site.

Meanwhile, the city says it has found thousands of additional parking spots around the west harbour.

The competing plans make parking a key battleground for the city and the CFL team as they approach the critical Pan Am stadium decision deadline next week.

The Ticats' new offer for parking at its preferred site will cost the team at least $3 million on top of the $15 million it has pledged for the capital costs of the stadium.

The average cost of one paved parking spot is roughly $5,000, not including land acquisition, storm management and a new stormwater tax the city is imposing on big patches of asphalt.

The parking lot would be on the province-owned land across the street from the stadium site.

And with up to 7,000 spots, a paved lot would take up the entire swath of available provincial land.

It would be almost double the size of the 4,000-spot Lime Ridge Mall lot.

Tiger-Cats president Scott Mitchell says it's the football club's responsibility to supply the parking spots the team sees as crucial to its fans' "driveway to driveway" experience.

"The parking issue is our concern, not necessarily theirs," Mitchell said yesterday.

He added: "We're prepared to come up with a solution that doesn't cost the city a penny."

Mitchell said it's too early to pin down a specific dollar amount the Ticats are prepared to offer for the plan, as the team isn't sure if it will provide one paved lot or a parking garage of some sort.

While the Ticats grapple with parking at east Mountain, a report presented to city councillors in a closed meeting yesterday suggests the number of available parking spots at the west harbour has blossomed to 4,615.

That includes the 600 spots initially included in the west harbour proposal, an additional 1,500 parking spaces in the west harbour district on property the city already owns and 2,515 spots within a 700-metre walk.

The Ticats' parking proposal stalled the release of a city staff report comparing the costs of the two potential sites that councillors were expecting yesterday.

Several councillors said the east Mountain was rumoured to be more expensive than west harbour by between $42 million and $50 million.

"We were hoping to get our head around our numbers today," said Councillor Lloyd Ferguson said.

He said the city had previously understood it would be on the hook for the cost of parking.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said plans for the west harbour site -- which covers about 8 hectares -- included 600 onsite parking spots to be paid for by the city.

The east Mountain site is only 6.8 hectares.

Eisenberger says the city isn't willing to pay for more land to create extra parking spots for the Tiger-Cats.

"Clearly, the only evaluation that we're doing is on the stadium site. Anything that comes over and above that should be the responsibility of the Tiger-Cats," he said.

"Certainly there's no appetite for the City of Hamilton to go acquire these lands on behalf of private development."



BY THE NUMBERS

6,800 parking spots needed at an east Mountain stadium site

4,615 spots available for the west harbour site, including:

600 spots in the city's original proposal

1,500 new spots on city-owned land by the west harbour

2,515 spots within 700 metres of the west harbour

dennis1
Aug 4, 2010, 2:26 PM
Several councillors said the east Mountain was rumoured to be more expensive than west harbour by between $42 million and $50 million.


Waiting for sources.....

thistleclub
Aug 4, 2010, 2:43 PM
..with up to 7,000 spots, a paved lot would take up the entire swath of available provincial land. It would be almost double the size of the 4,000-spot Lime Ridge Mall lot.

Also about twice the capacity of the Meadowlands lots in the area bordered by Legend Court, Golf Links Road and the Linc. It's a lot of lot.

coalminecanary
Aug 4, 2010, 2:59 PM
The Ticats vow to pay for thousands of east Mountain spots

...which they will take the revenues from in perpetuity.

How generous...

dennis1
Aug 4, 2010, 3:49 PM
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/819691

Here.


The East Mountain will be more expensive than the WH. There we go. Is there any doubt now?

ihateittoo
Aug 4, 2010, 4:45 PM
i know this question has been asked atleast 15 times before, but the current plans they are debating west harbour vs. east mountain are they both for 15 000 seat stadiums? with the hope of securing private money in order to upgrade? These are soccer stadiums now too... right? and the tiger-cats are still fighting even though the future fund has been ruled out of their reach?

They are providing 15 million + 3 for parking (which they will make back easily) If the east mountain is chosen, where do the tiger-cats want the rest of the money to come from? federal and provincial levels? but we lost most of the funding because we lost the "gem" of the games right?

These debates keep going but I have lost a clear picture of what it is they plan on building and how.

Anders Knudsen
Aug 4, 2010, 5:27 PM
i know this question has been asked atleast 15 times before, but the current plans they are debating west harbour vs. east mountain are they both for 15 000 seat stadiums? with the hope of securing private money in order to upgrade? These are soccer stadiums now too... right? and the tiger-cats are still fighting even though the future fund has been ruled out of their reach?

They are providing 15 million + 3 for parking (which they will make back easily) If the east mountain is chosen, where do the tiger-cats want the rest of the money to come from? federal and provincial levels? but we lost most of the funding because we lost the "gem" of the games right?

These debates keep going but I have lost a clear picture of what it is they plan on building and how.

future fund isn't ruled out, council can overrule the board. Provincial and federal money remain committed to the soccer stadium.

SteelTown
Aug 4, 2010, 5:34 PM
If the East Mountain stadium site is as suggested over $45 million more expensive compared to the West Harbour site than the Ti Cats can forget about City's council approval for the East Mountain.

I can picture Merulla yelling and having a major hissy fit.

markbarbera
Aug 4, 2010, 7:09 PM
Capital costs is a significant consideration, but of greater concern is annual operational costs. If one site is more expensive to build initially , but will have a lower annual operational cost, then it may be of greater benefit to go with that one.

In order to fairly compare compare costs, you need to consider both the capital cost and the operational costs for the stadium's estimated useful life.

Also, you need to look at what is being included in the capital cost estimate. For example, in the case of the EM, it would be fair to include road expansion costs if they are new expansion not previously considered. However, if they are expansion plans already on the books (like the Trinity Road expansion for example), they should not be lumped together as a stadium cost, seeing that Trinity Road will be expanded regardless of how the EM site is developed.

I really don't think we should get caught up ruminating over rumour. Lets wait for the real numbers to appear.

And, no matter what the outcome, it's pretty safe to assume Merulla will have a hissy fit before all is said and done.

emge
Aug 4, 2010, 10:52 PM
And, no matter what the outcome, it's pretty safe to assume Merulla will have a hissy fit before all is said and done.

At least some things never change...

Unlike a lot of other things in this city, I really think we have a shot at making the right decision on this one -- and the higher cost of the East Mountain is probably going to be a very big problem for some councillors.

I still would have preferred to see another downtown location for the stadium (or dream insanely big - get rid of the jail on Barton and put it there..) but if the chose is EM or WH.... the choice is clear.

markbarbera
Aug 4, 2010, 11:18 PM
Seriously, at this point I think the best thing for the city is to just give Pan Am a pass on the stadium.

Frankly, we can't afford a new stadium. A loan is a loan and we'd have to eventually pay back $60 mil to the Future Fund no matter what decision is made.

With all the proposals, counter proposals being rushed through so close to a deadline we are making a decision without clear, sober thought. The West Harbour neighbourhood is prime residential land far too valuable to be squandered on a stadium. And the East Mountain is not truly a satisfactory alternative.

Seriously, what is the with the mad rush? Why is this city acting like a panic stricken shopper on Christmas Eve rushing to max out the credit card on something we don't even know we'll like or use? This is not a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Ivor Wynne can last a good decade or so. There will be a very strong chance of landing the Commonwealth Games in the interim. Let's do proper planning instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round or triangular hole.

Pan Am can make due without a new stadium in Hamilton. We'd still have swimming and soccer at Mac, volleyball and cycling downtown. Rehab the WH land and place the velodrome there. Afterwards allow WH to develop as envisioned in Setting Sail. And set up a task force to do a detailed review of the city to determine a suitable future site for a football stadium, a process where citizens and stakeholders are involved from the onset and a decision is made by consensus and not by battling children hiding behind sofa-cushion forts.

I would rather this city take its time and arrive at a well-thought-out decision rather than rush into one that's tainted by heightened emotion, rumour and innuendo, and very little evidence of rational thought.

matt602
Aug 5, 2010, 3:15 AM
You know, at this point I am thinking exactly the same way.

markbarbera
Aug 5, 2010, 11:44 AM
Letter to the Editor today by Trevor Garwood-Jones, much-respected Hamilton architect and urban enthusiast.


Stadium will never revitalize area
Trevor Garwood-Jones
architect
Hamilton
The Hamilton Spectator

(Aug 5, 2010)

Re: 'The mythology of stadiums; People, relax: No stadiums drive growth or save cores' (Opinion, July 30)

This article by Don Drury should be required reading for all Hamiltonians interested in the stadium location debate.

Drury's statements are based on established facts as opposed to much of the "pie-in-the-sky" rhetoric published to date. Stadiums need to be seen and easily accessed via major highways, not located in areas with narrow, congested sidestreets and inadequate parking.

More importantly, because stadiums are used sporadically, a new one in the west harbour region could never revitalize the area, as some are suggesting.

The west harbour site has been zoned mostly for housing with some mixed commercial businesses, and for good reason; these are the only kinds of urban developments that would keep people in the area and bring it back to life.

The arrival and departure of 20,000 people after a sporting event, all within a three-hour timeframe, will not create a community feel. With or without a stadium, the area will continue to feel like a shunting yard unless it's converted into residential units with attractive landscaping and parkettes nice enough to view from the patios of the coffee shops and restaurants that are bound to spring up after this is achieved.

One can only hope that the members of city council will base their vote on the facts and not on the wishful thinking of well meaning, but misguided individuals.

http://www.google.ca/#q=trevor+garwood-jones&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=o&ei=oaFaTN7ZIISJnQeCkfCJAg&start=0&sa=N&fp=bee061f3f925b74a

highwater
Aug 5, 2010, 11:57 AM
All well and good, but none of it an argument for EM. In fact, it's an argument for WH, since the WH will cost us less and at the very least clean up a brownfield site. I happen to believe a stadium will provide some economic benefit, even if it is far from a silver bullet. If we must have a stadium, and we only have these two sites to choose from, we must choose the site that will do the least harm. Without a doubt that site is the WH, and it would seem that many of his respected Hamilton architect colleagues and fellow urban enthusiasts agree.

markbarbera
Aug 5, 2010, 12:42 PM
Why do we have to choose a site for a stadium that is not really needed and we really can't afford?

Why make a choice that will leave half the city disenfranchised no matter which choice is made?

dennis1
Aug 5, 2010, 12:45 PM
Because this has been a 10 year fight we are not about to lose.

Anders Knudsen
Aug 5, 2010, 1:14 PM
West Harbour is the Best Option

August 5, 2010
Emma Reilly
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/820368

A west harbour stadium is the best solution for the city.

That's the view of the Jobs Prosperity Collaborative, an influential group of business professionals and community leaders interested in making Hamilton a better place to live.

The JPC has drafted a letter to Mayor Fred Eisenberger, Ticats' owner Bob Young and Premier Dalton McGuinty reaffirming its support for the west harbour.

"While the debate has been vigorous and engaging, it has also been sadly divisive for what is such a wonderful opportunity," the letter reads.

"We also note the current process of mediation has excluded all but one of the stakeholders, albeit an important one."

In an interview yesterday, JPC chair Mark Chamberlain said the group is affirming its support for the west harbour because it best meets the goals of seven principles approved by council in February, including the site's potential for city building and community development, as well as the opportunities to leverage public and private investments[...]

mattgrande
Aug 5, 2010, 1:22 PM
So are we ever going to see renderings of the East Mountain stadium, or an estimate of how much it will cost? That is by far the most important thing in this debate: How much will this low-use facility cost taxpayers?

SteelTown
Aug 5, 2010, 1:23 PM
The report should be out to the public tomorrow morning. It'll detail all the cost.

mattgrande
Aug 5, 2010, 11:40 PM
I went to the East Mountain rally. There was a lot of "yay, Ti-Cats, Hamilton is the best city ever" type stuff. Peter Mercanti talked a lot about financial stability, and how Copps is losing money with both hands because they don't have a "major tenant" (I guess the Bulldogs don't count?). No one mentioned why, despite the fact that everyone there wants to make out with Hamilton, they were threatening to leave.

I'd say a good 300 - 500 people were there, but I'm terrible at guessing attendances. The only people under 40 years old were myself, the cheerleaders, and the players; I thought that was pretty telling.

PS - In case you were wondering, I had a hell of a time leaving because Stone Church is not meant to handle that many cars.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, Bob talked about how amazingly great it would be to have an NASL team in Hamilton. Does no one realize that the NASL is a third-rate league that still hasn't had it's inaugural season? The only reason it exists is because former USL (United Soccer League) teams were upset with the sale of the League. How many of you have heard of the United Soccer League?

Jon Dalton
Aug 6, 2010, 7:44 AM
Welcome Matt Grande!

mattgrande
Aug 6, 2010, 11:10 AM
Hi Jon! I signed up back in July, and it took weeks for my account to be approved. It was weird.

In other news: http://thespec.ca/News/Local/article/821172


A city report says a Pan Am stadium at the east Mountain will cost $55 million to $80 million more than a stadium at the west harbour site, the Spectator has learned.
...
"It's contemptible," [Brad Clark] said."It's frustrating ... How am I supposed to do my job? From my perspective, we should be getting all of the information. There has not been one briefing since we got the Michael Fenn report. The majority of council knows nothing about the information that has been gathered."

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 11:10 AM
Bob Young breaks silence
Harbour up to $80m less: city

August 06, 2010
Emma Reilly; With files from Daniel Nolan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/821172

A city report says a Pan Am stadium at the east Mountain will cost $55 million to $80 million more than a stadium at the west harbour site, the Spectator has learned.

The figure, contained in a draft report presented to councillors yesterday, includes about $24 million in road improvements to handle increased traffic and lost revenue potential through taxes, development charges and building fees the city could earn if the land was developed for other uses.

The building cost for a stadium at the east Mountain is about $15 million cheaper than at the west harbour site. Ticat owner Bob Young has offered $15 million in capital to an east Mountain stadium, and the team said it would spend millions to build a parking lot there.

The city has pledged $60 million to the Pan Am Games, with $45 million going towards a stadium, $10 million to land acquisition and $5 million to the velodrome.

The provincial and federal governments have both offered $28.5 million. The city staff report offers the first indication the east Mountain could require significantly more funding than what's been pledged by all levels of government and private investors like the Cats.

The figures were presented yesterday morning to a small working group of six councillors chosen by Mayor Fred Eisenberger to consult with facilitator Michael Fenn during the city's mediation process with the Ticats. The group has been meeting periodically over the past few weeks for updates on the east Mountain site.

An e-mail sent to councillors by the city clerk's office indicated the final version of the report, which councillors will use to make a decision on where to build the stadium, will be sent to the entire council this morning and made public sometime today. But Councillor Brad Clark says he's been told councillors will get an one-hour briefing either today or Monday.

"It's contemptible," he said."It's frustrating ... How am I supposed to do my job? From my perspective, we should be getting all of the information. There has not been one briefing since we got the Michael Fenn report. The majority of council knows nothing about the information that has been gathered."

As the report presented to council's working group yesterday was a draft proposal, the figures could change by the time it's released today. It's not clear if the $55 to $80 million figure takes into account the significant amount of money needed for parking at the east Mountain site.

At last night's rally, Tiger-Cat owner Bob Young declined to comment on the figures, calling it a "hypothetical report I haven't seen." CFL commissioner Mark Cohon also declined comment, saying it wasn't a question for him but the Tiger-Cats.

The cost difference is a major piece of the puzzle for councillors grappling with the complexities of the decision they'll face Tuesday.

"Let me tell you this: My constituents in Ancaster tell me everyday our taxes are too high. I will not support anything that's going to cost more money," said Councillor Lloyd Ferguson. "Clearly, cost is a major deciding factor for me."

Clark called the ongoing process regarding information on the stadium issue "extremely frustrating," claiming some councillors are being kept in the dark. He said he knew nothing about the $55-80 million figure.

Council will also have to face how an east Mountain stadium will affect income from development.

The city has plans to upgrade Trinity Church, Stone Church, Dartnall, Highland and Pritchard roads, but those projects are at least a decade away. Speeding up those upgrades to make way for stadium traffic will divert the city's resources for road upgrades in other areas. That could put other developments on hold, which will mean less revenue from taxes, development charges, and building permits from areas beyond the east mountain.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 11:15 AM
Hi Jon! I signed up back in July, and it took weeks for my account to be approved. It was weird.

I saw that you joined but weren't activated. You should have gotten an email with a link to activate your account once you signed up. After awhile I assumed you didn' get the email or ignored the email. So I went ahead and requested the Admins to activate your account.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 11:23 AM
A city report says a Pan Am stadium at the east Mountain will cost $55 million to $80 million more than a stadium at the west harbour site, the Spectator has learned.

http://media.hamiltonspectator.topscms.com/images/e3/81/f266d11f4b25a1968c5d211de5a5.jpeg
ECK!
Cathie Coward, the Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/821172

lol

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 11:26 AM
"Councillor Sam Merulla intends to put forward a motion at Tuesday’s stadium vote asking councillors to dump both sites and commit to renovating aging Ivor Wynne Stadium instead."

From Andrew Dreschel's article.

flar
Aug 6, 2010, 12:19 PM
"Councillor Sam Merulla intends to put forward a motion at Tuesday’s stadium vote asking councillors to dump both sites and commit to renovating aging Ivor Wynne Stadium instead."
.

That's what I would have done from the get go.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 12:55 PM
If they do go ahead with renovating IWS I hope to god they replace the bench with an actual chair.

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 1:23 PM
Welcome Matt!

mattgrande
Aug 6, 2010, 1:29 PM
I saw that you joined but weren't activated. You should have gotten an email with a link to activate your account once you signed up. After awhile I assumed you didn' get the email or ignored the email. So I went ahead and requested the Admins to activate your account.

Thanks! :cheers: I never got the email.

I haven't been on a forum with smilies in awhile. I'll be overusing them a lot. :banana:

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 2:00 PM
No problem! If you have any issues let me know and I'll try my best to resolve it.

Welcome to the forum by the way!!

highwater
Aug 6, 2010, 2:07 PM
Welcome Matt!

Bob Young was on CHML this morning questioning the city's numbers, saying he couldn't see how building on a greenfield site could be more expensive than building in an urban location. I guess infrastructure is free on his planet.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 2:17 PM
Are you guys gonna meet up tomorrow during the rally at Hess Village? Maybe get a drink or two or three or....? haha

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 2:21 PM
Welcome Matt!

Bob Young was on CHML this morning questioning the city's numbers, saying he couldn't see how building on a greenfield site could be more expensive than building in an urban location. I guess infrastructure is free on his planet.

I expected him to be honest, to say I need tax money for this. I guess not.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 3:02 PM
City staff are meeting with councilors about the Pan Am Stadium right now, therefore the report isn't out to the public just yet.

Keep checking this link...

http://www.hamilton.ca/CityDepartments/CorporateServices/Clerks/AgendaMinutes/CommitteeWhole/2010/August10CommitteeoftheWholeAgenda.htm

Look for

7.1 Pan Am Games (CM09006(f)) (City Wide) (to be distributed)

There's no hyperlink yet. Probably around noon or 1pm there should be a hyperlink so you can read the report. I'll be away at a meeting so I won't be able to pass you the link ASAP.

highwater
Aug 6, 2010, 3:55 PM
Are you guys gonna meet up tomorrow during the rally at Hess Village? Maybe get a drink or two or three or....? haha

I'll be there with family and friends, aiming to get there right around 3:30 and stay for an hour or so. If you think you might be there around that time, message me on ssp or fb. :)

bigguy1231
Aug 6, 2010, 4:22 PM
If they do go ahead with renovating IWS I hope to god they replace the bench with an actual chair.

Thats not going to happen. Too many structural problems on the South stands. It would cost them as much to renovate IWS as it will to build a new stadium at a new location.

highwater
Aug 6, 2010, 4:43 PM
Here's the report. Hopefully the link works.

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1f3EHTdzvUYKfZ1Zy1DOz79c8QUui99WND3E0VFRurfNPoUNgxoYaBUJsaDmE&hl=en&authkey=CJaWz7oM

mattgrande
Aug 6, 2010, 5:36 PM
For the East Mountain site, the Tiger-Cats organization has publicly stated that it and its partners will contribute financially to a stadium constructed in the East Mountain precinct... The offer is predicated on the Tiger-Cats and partners developing land in the immediate vicinity of the stadium and retaining all stadium revenues for all events scheduled at the venue.


Build us a stadium, we'll chip in (less than) 15%, and collect no returns. Sounds fair to me.


The Tiger Cats maintain that they cannot be financially sustainable at the West Harbour site. To date City Staff have not seen the Tiger Cat business plan.


On pages 8 & 9, they discuss many of the costs. While the West Harbour stadium is $24M more expensive, there is at least $55.5M in infrastructure work required for the East Mountain site (including water, wastewater, and road expansions). This does not include sewers (no price give, but I'd imagine it's be $500K - $1M) and signalization ($150,000 per signal).

Page 10 mentions that WH brings in about $367K in taxes annually, and that wouldn't change. However, we'd be losing upwards of $1.5M annually by placing a stadium on the EM site. The adjoining sites to could net the city up to $5.2M annually.


Staff believes that a stadium in the West Harbour is more directly aligned to the concept of "City Building" as defined by previous reports and envisioned by many in the community as teh East Mountain site will develop regardless. It offers a form of urban re-development, an additional rationale for light rail transit, a tangible project for downtown renewal, and an oppurtunity to re-cast the image of our waterfront, to name but a few. Conversely, a stadium constructed alone in the East Mountain, with no further action in teh West Harbour or downtown area, does not directly link to most of these same initiatives, and only peripherally to those it does.

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 5:44 PM
Thanks highwater.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 7:13 PM
Province and Feds say East Mountain only: Brad Clark

August 06, 2010
Emma Reilly
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/821568

The provincial and federal governments will only fund a stadium at the east Mountain, The Spectator has learned.

According to Councillor Brad Clark, Mayor Fred Eisenberger and Ticats president Scott Mitchell received a call from the office of MPP Sophia Aggelonitis this morning informing them that both the province and feds were pulling their funding from west harbour. According to Clark, Aggelonitis’ chief of staff, Jamie Rilett, made the calls. Other councillors confirmed they had heard the same rumour, but had not yet received an official update from the mayor’s office.

Rilett denies contacting either the mayor or Scott Mitchell.

Clark, a former MPP, says the federal government instigated the turnaround this morning when they informed the province they wouldn’t fund a West Harbour stadium. The province then followed suit.

A press release is expected from the province this afternoon, Clark said.

Mitchell confirmed he received a call from the province this morning, but declined to comment at this hour.

“I’m not going to comment on that because I need to hear more details,” he said.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger, Aggelonitis, and MPP Ted McMeekin have not yet responded to calls for comment.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 7:16 PM
Clark, a former MPP, says the federal government instigated the turnaround this morning when they informed the province they wouldn’t fund a West Harbour stadium. The province then followed suit.

Gee I wonder what recently appointed Senator made the push from the federal government.

flar
Aug 6, 2010, 7:20 PM
What a bunch of BS. I say NO NEW STADIUM.
It's a waste of tax dollars all around.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 7:23 PM
Looks like council might just have to go with Merulla's suggestion and spend $20 million towards IWS to host soccer during the Pan Am Games.

mattgrande
Aug 6, 2010, 7:24 PM
If they're not letting the city chose the location, then the city shouldn't pay a dime.

drpgq
Aug 6, 2010, 7:31 PM
Well this is craptacular.

I always preferred Ivor Wynne overall anyways.

One thing that irks me lately about this whole mess, is that the province has committed to finishing the Toronto airport line before the Pan Am games, but we have heard practically nothing about LRT funding here. Thanks Dalton.

flar
Aug 6, 2010, 7:33 PM
Hamilton has been getting screwed by all levels of government for years, why should things change now?

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 7:50 PM
I'm just going to wait until this is confirmed.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 7:58 PM
For Immediate Release

Statement by Mayor Fred Eisenberger

Hamilton - There are several questions and rumours at present concerning the future Pan stadium.

I have insisted on a public statement and, until such time as a confirming public statement is made by the provincial and/or federal governments concerning the stadium, I will not comment.

Regardless, I am and will continue to be in favour of the West Harbour site for the Pan Am stadium. I am doing what I have always done and that is to safeguard the public interest of people of Hamilton.

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 8:08 PM
Holy shit

Fuck you brad clark.
Fuck you Braley too.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 8:08 PM
This might be a situation where a rumour was made up to actually force the feds and the province to comment something about the West Harbour stadium site.

thistleclub
Aug 6, 2010, 8:11 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_peLg3xECO5g/SIs_b3I1kII/AAAAAAAAAK4/8ppnYKyqg9Y/s320/Pier_Pressure59.jpg

"And that's why you don't bid on amateur sporting events."

mattgrande
Aug 6, 2010, 8:15 PM
This might be a situation where a rumour was made up to actually force the feds and the province to comment something about the West Harbour stadium site.

Yeah. No confirmation from Aggelonitis, Mitchell being vague, and Mayor Fred calling it a rumor? Seems fishy to me. Is Brad Clark making up rumours now?

bigguy1231
Aug 6, 2010, 8:19 PM
If this rumour is true the city should vote down any stadium and immediately kick the Ticats out of IWS, which should then be demolished without delay.

They caused this mess they can find a new place to play this year.

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 8:20 PM
Hi Matt

I believe clark is making shit up. I mean it has been 8 hours since this morning when the numbers came out.

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 9:06 PM
If this rumour is true the city should vote down any stadium and immediately kick the Ticats out of IWS, which should then be demolished without delay.

They caused this mess they can find a new place to play this year.

Do you really think they will do that?

bigguy1231
Aug 6, 2010, 9:11 PM
Do you really think they will do that?

I would hope so. Why should we continue to subsidize their existance with the mess they have created for this city.

markbarbera
Aug 6, 2010, 9:19 PM
Statement from the Province of Ontario (from thespec.com live update):

The PanAm Games present our community with a huge opportunity to improve our city and make progress on behalf of the families that live in this city.

The goal of the McGuinty government has always been to build a stadium for the City of Hamilton that will have a lasting benefit to the community.

As the MPPs for Hamilton Mountain and Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Westdale, we want to be part a government that builds a great facility for the PanAm Games.

With a final decision days away, the federal government has made it clear to the province and the city that it will not fund a new stadium at the West Harbour.

The Ontario government believes, as the city’s staff report points out, that if the stadium is going to have a strong future, it must have an anchor tenant. We believe the best opportunity for success now is to build the stadium on the East Mountain, and we will encourage all parties involved to work towards that solution over the coming days.



Sophia Aggelonitis, MPP, Hamilton Mountain

Ted McMeekin, MPP, Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Westdale

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 9:21 PM
Statement from the Province of Ontario (from thespec.com live update):

So this is legit. I will not support the CFL any longer.

flar
Aug 6, 2010, 9:25 PM
How democratic.

I urge all of you to write to your councillors. Don't waste the city's money on this. Council should not take out massive loans and spend millions of dollars to serve special interest groups. Council should not be bullied by a professional sports team.

markbarbera
Aug 6, 2010, 9:31 PM
The East Mountain site is in the federal riding of Niagara West-Glanbrook, represented by Conservative MP Dean Alliston.

One hell of a patronage project. Even Chretien would blush.

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 9:37 PM
Provincially repped by none other than Tim "harris jr" Hudak.

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 9:40 PM
I'm boycotting the ticats from now on. Go Toronto NFL. I'm serious.

drpgq
Aug 6, 2010, 9:49 PM
I guess the question is now whether the East Mountain can win the votes. I'm pretty skeptical, with all the extra costs and the requirement of the future fund.

markbarbera
Aug 6, 2010, 9:50 PM
Let's not forget that Eisenberger himself has deep Conservative connections. Who's to say he didn't ring up Harper and say "I've painted myself into a corner and I need to wiggle out of WH as a stadium location and still save face". Harper says no funds for WH, McGuinty concurs, the feds look like the bad guys and Eisenberger can say "Sorry, I tried, please still vote for me".

I'll be looking for a big Federal Government funding announcement to clean up the WH contaminated lands in the coming days.

markbarbera
Aug 6, 2010, 9:54 PM
I guess the question is now whether the East Mountain can the votes. I'm pretty skeptical, with all the extra costs and the requirement of the future fund.

The extra costs are for implementing infrastructure already in the ten-year plan for the area. It isn't extra spending overall, just being spent much earlier than planned. And it's spending that will have to happen whether or not the stadium is placed there.

bigguy1231
Aug 6, 2010, 9:59 PM
Let's not forget that Eisenberger himself has deep Conservative connections. Who's to say he didn't ring up Harper and say "I've painted myself into a corner and I need to wiggle out of WH as a stadium location and still save face". Harper says no funds for WH, McGuinty concurs, the feds look like the bad guys and Eisenberger can say "Sorry, I tried, please still vote for me".

I'll be looking for a big Federal Government funding announcement to clean up the WH contaminated lands in the coming days.


There is only one man ressponsible for this and he is a newly appointed Senator. It just goes to prove that money can buy anything even Prime Ministers and Premiers.

Now I know why people don't vote anymore. Why bother when rich people can usurp the political process by buying politicians.

mattgrande
Aug 6, 2010, 10:15 PM
I just sent this to the Mayor & councillors.


Mayor Eisenberger & Councillors,

So the Federal and Provincial Governments think they can come into our city and tell us where to put the stadium? Is this our democracy?

We've been stripped of our choice to run our city how we want. If they want to build a stadium in this city, let them. But don't use City money. Our money.

I strongly urge you all, regardless of which stadium site you prefer, to vote against ANY stadium in Hamilton. Let's instead use our Future Fund money on cleaning up our oil-soaked downtown soil, preventing the Red Hill from flooding, fixing our roadways and sewers. Let's make a Hamilton that is truly "the best place to raise a child."

Furthermore, let's tell Bob Young to start paying for Ivor Wynne. He's cost this city millions of dollars, the Track & Field events, and now he's cost us our democracy.

Don't vote West Harbour. Don't vote East Mountain. Do what's best for Hamilton. Simply vote NO.
- Matthew Grande.


I doubt it will do anything, but seriously... Fuck this.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 10:51 PM
Sad day for democracy in Hamilton.

thurmas
Aug 6, 2010, 11:05 PM
it's a great day because all you left wingers are goin nuts.go watch your nfl coming to toronto which will never happen because the nfl wants LA not toronto which brings in no new ratings for them and would be a terrible draw and free agents shun toronto in basketball and baseball and nfl would be no diff.also i bet most of you were never ti-cat fans anyways if you are so easy to jump off board of them because their stadium won't be at your favourite intersection oh wow what great football fans you are iam sure the nfl wants loyal fans like you!to paraphrase nelson muntz HA HA!

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 11:06 PM
I'll be there with family and friends, aiming to get there right around 3:30 and stay for an hour or so. If you think you might be there around that time, message me on ssp or fb. :)

After todays news I sadly will not attend. I've had three glass of Sangria already and I intend to drink more tonight.

drpgq
Aug 6, 2010, 11:07 PM
The extra costs are for implementing infrastructure already in the ten-year plan for the area. It isn't extra spending overall, just being spent much earlier than planned. And it's spending that will have to happen whether or not the stadium is placed there.

I consider the forgone tax revenues for the giant parking lot extra expenses. Some people who make ridiculous blanket statements might not, but I don'treally take them that seriously.

drpgq
Aug 6, 2010, 11:10 PM
it's a great day because all you left wingers are goin nuts.go watch your nfl coming to toronto which will never happen because the nfl wants LA not toronto which brings in no new ratings for them and would be a terrible draw and free agents shun toronto in basketball and baseball and nfl would be no diff.also i bet most of you were never ti-cat fans anyways if you are so easy to jump off board of them because their stadium won't be at your favourite intersection oh wow what great football fans you are iam sure the nfl wants loyal fans like you!to paraphrase nelson muntz HA HA!

I'm a libertarian and a Ticat season ticket holder and I think the East Mountain is nuts, both from a city perspective and for the success of the team.

SteelTown
Aug 6, 2010, 11:17 PM
There's a good chance Hamilton won't get any new stadium anyways.

I hate to say it but I kinda support Merulla's suggestion with renovating IWS. I rather spend $20-30 milllion than spend $90 or so millions from the City's wallet towards an East Mountain stadium.

Janbe
Aug 6, 2010, 11:23 PM
It came to building a stadium without a tenant. East Mountain has the tenant.

dennis1
Aug 6, 2010, 11:31 PM
it's a great day because all you left wingers are goin nuts.go watch your nfl coming to toronto which will never happen because the nfl wants LA not toronto which brings in no new ratings for them and would be a terrible draw and free agents shun toronto in basketball and baseball and nfl would be no diff.also i bet most of you were never ti-cat fans anyways if you are so easy to jump off board of them because their stadium won't be at your favourite intersection oh wow what great football fans you are iam sure the nfl wants loyal fans like you!to paraphrase nelson muntz HA HA!

You can't even speak english. You don't even know when you use a comma or a period, no capital letters in Hamilton. How would you feel if the government pulled the rug out under you? Don't answer, its rhetorical, I don't want your babble.

Go back to Winnipeg.

Steeltown can't you suspend this guy.

scott000
Aug 6, 2010, 11:31 PM
Can we get Confederation Park back on the table?
(tip o' the hat to realcity for calling this fiasco)

At this point, the city basically can't give in to East Mountain and still save face. I used to love the ti-cats, at this point I think I'd rather see them leave. So fuck it, let's take the chance.

Blurr
Aug 6, 2010, 11:55 PM
Do not touch the future fund for the east mountain. Do not put any money in the project. A bunch of dwindling 40+ year olds supporting a team in a B league that is headed in the ditch has nothing to do with the future and is not an investment.

dennis1
Aug 7, 2010, 12:11 AM
I'm so mad right now.

highwater
Aug 7, 2010, 12:18 AM
A bunch of dwindling 40+ year olds supporting a team in a B league that is headed in the ditch has nothing to do with the future and is not an investment.

According to the Ticats' own survey, the average age of their ticket holders is 50 - even worse.

highwater
Aug 7, 2010, 12:20 AM
Who's to say he didn't ring up Harper and say "I've painted myself into a corner and I need to wiggle out of WH as a stadium location and still save face". Harper says no funds for WH, McGuinty concurs, the feds look like the bad guys and Eisenberger can say "Sorry, I tried, please still vote for me".

If that's true then he deserves an Oscar for his performance on the news tonight, and you deserve a gymnastics medal for that spin.

dennis1
Aug 7, 2010, 12:21 AM
According to the Ticats' own survey, the average age of their ticket holders is 50 - even worse.

Hi, Highwater, I know, you have never responded to me, but what do you think about all this. Are you no longer a fan?

flar
Aug 7, 2010, 12:23 AM
It came to building a stadium without a tenant. East Mountain has the tenant.

Sorry you've been fooled, but professional sports teams routinely threaten to pack up in order to get what they want. Like I said all along, call their bluff. The TiCats don't have anywhere else to go next season. They'd really lose money playing a lame duck season at Ivor Wynne while a new stadium is built somewhere else, even if there is some other city willing to shell out $100 million for a stadium.

flar
Aug 7, 2010, 12:24 AM
Let's not forget that Eisenberger himself has deep Conservative connections. Who's to say he didn't ring up Harper and say "I've painted myself into a corner and I need to wiggle out of WH as a stadium location and still save face". Harper says no funds for WH, McGuinty concurs, the feds look like the bad guys and Eisenberger can say "Sorry, I tried, please still vote for me".

I'll be looking for a big Federal Government funding announcement to clean up the WH contaminated lands in the coming days.

Eisenberger doesn't have connections that good.

flar
Aug 7, 2010, 12:28 AM
As many predicted at the outset, the PanAm games were a Toronto bid so Hamilton was destined to be screwed over. Now that track and field has been taken from Hamilton, there really isn't an obvious need for a stadium in Hamilton. They can play soccer at Ivor Wynne and Mohawk Park.

isaidso
Aug 7, 2010, 12:34 AM
I'm a libertarian and a Ticat season ticket holder and I think the East Mountain is nuts, both from a city perspective and for the success of the team.

Young may own the Tiger-Cats, but he doesn't speak for Tiger-Cats/CFL fans. He's screwed this up royally for his team, the league, and Hamilton. What a mess!

isaidso
Aug 7, 2010, 12:37 AM
What a bunch of BS. I say NO NEW STADIUM.
It's a waste of tax dollars all around.

A renovated Ivor Wynne makes far more sense than spending a dime at East Mountain. So, is West Harbour finished, or is there still hope for it?

dennis1
Aug 7, 2010, 12:50 AM
isaidso the west harbour is done.

It is east mountain or nothing. I suggest you start being a Argonauts or Alouettes fan.

Anders Knudsen
Aug 7, 2010, 1:08 AM
this is unbelievable. Bob Young can't believe his luck right now. All he has to do is levy a petty threat against the city, which I'm convinced was nothing more than pressure to get more concessions from the city at the Harbour - a stadium better in all respects than his current stadium on the criteria he lists as vital for the 'sustainability' of his team - and people believe him! Oh wait no they don't, every citizens group that counts stands up against him and not one coherent argument is made for the 'sustainability' of the East Mountain. So it's not luck at all, nor better messaging or PR, it's just plain old corruption.

highwater
Aug 7, 2010, 1:13 AM
Are you no longer a fan?

That's putting it mildly.

I've been a ticat fan and a big defender of Canadian football all my life. The labour day classic used to be a tradition with my dad and me when he was alive. I took my son last year and we had a ball and I figured we would start a new tradition. They will never get one cent out of me ever again. I cut up my son's ticat shirt for paint rags (he didn't want it anymore), and I chucked the ca 1950 pin that belonged to my dad.

A few months ago we had a hopeful vision for our city. Hosting the high profile track and field events, a beautiful stadium on our beautiful harbour, LRT, and now it's all gone. The ticats stole that hopeful vision from us. I will never forgive Bob Young, Scott Mitchell, Mark Cohon, Michael Fenn, Ian Troop, David Braley, and their enablers in the provincial government.

What did Hamilton ever do to them to deserve having our hopes and dreams smashed like that? It boggles the mind that an entire city could be sacrificed for the financial gain of a few powerful men who don't even live here. I am so angered, sickened, and heartbroken by this I don't know what to do.

Are you no longer a fan?

Bet you're sorry you asked. :(

dennis1
Aug 7, 2010, 1:19 AM
That's putting it mildly.

I've been a ticat fan and a big defender of Canadian football all my life. The labour day classic used to be a tradition with my dad and me when he was alive. I took my son last year and we had a ball and I figured we would start a new tradition. They will never get one cent out of me ever again. I cut up my son's ticat shirt for paint rags (he didn't want it anymore), and I chucked the ca 1950 pin that belonged to my dad.

A few months ago we had a hopeful vision for our city. Hosting the high profile track and field events, a beautiful stadium on our beautiful harbour, LRT, and now it's all gone. The ticats stole that hopeful vision from us. I will never forgive Bob Young, Scott Mitchell, Mark Cohon, Michael Fenn, Ian Troop, David Braley, and their enablers in the provincial government.

What did Hamilton ever do to them to deserve having our hopes and dreams smashed like that? It boggles the mind that an entire city could be sacrificed for the financial gain of a few powerful men who don't even live here. I am so angered, sickened, and heartbroken by this I don't know what to do.



Bet you're sorry you asked. :(

No I am not. You are not a coward unlike some who run and hide. You stand up for what you believe in. Fuck the TiCats. I won't support them go to their games or even watch them on TV. I'm done with them and the CFL. I'm voting NDP this election too. I was a big defender of the CFL when I was younger too but I do not really give a shit about it now.

bigguy1231
Aug 7, 2010, 1:31 AM
Thats it Highwater, get it off your chest, venting is good.

On another note I emailed my councillor just after this story broke and was suprised that I got an immediate response, like within 5 minutes. To put it mildly he is pissed. I should mention that he is a West Harbour supporter.

He knows who is responsible in Ottawa. A certain senator. But he is so upset right now that he doesn't want to say anything just yet. He wants to sit back and calm down before proceeding, which is probably a good idea. He promised to let it be known in very short order where he stands and how he thinks the city should proceed.

AL3000
Aug 7, 2010, 1:31 AM
This was posted a week ago on the panamhamilton2015 page:

Yet again we witness plans for a greater city of Hamilton fall apart right before our eyes. Many have called this right from the start, and rightly so. The eventuality had been decided upon long before the first stories ever reached the press. The rest - what we have been witness to - has simply been a dog and pony circus show to keep the public occupied and amused with illusions of grandeur. Hamilton has long been a city "bought" by outside interests and pushed into and kept in dereliction seemingly for a purpose. If Hamilton were allowed to freely develop as a vibrant city, its geographically strategic location would dictate, by nature, that it quickly develop to rival Toronto itself. A proper train station in Hamilton would be of utmost strategic convenience, being at such a convenient cross roads from all directions. Yes, a vibrant Hamilton, a Hamilton realized to its full potential would indeed be a threat to business interests east of this city. Is it any wonder why this city is kept under wraps? The stadium issue was decided upon long ago, as with all developmental issues which have crossed Hamilton's political desk. What we are made privy to, as citizens of Hamilton, is just the inconsequential dog and pony show. The circus was in town. Now the circus is leaving. Hope you enjoyed the show... again.

Don't lose any sleep or friends over this, everyone. It's just politics. Nothing more, nothing less. Life goes on...

Janbe
Aug 7, 2010, 1:45 AM
Its either East Mountain or no Pan Am Games in Hamilton.

thurmas
Aug 7, 2010, 1:45 AM
In the last 5 years Winnipeg has had 5 different propsals of building a new Bomber stadium in 5 different areas of the city and nobody stoped being a Bomber fan because the stadium was going to a certain part of town yet you guys get all bent out of shape over this wow. I hope you enjoy Jack Layton Dennis because he sure looks like a winner. Oh well I guess the urban elites of Hamilton are too good for the cfl enjoy those mighty Buffalo Bills.